Comments (69)

Re: Atheism
I remember the time when you often heard people saying things like" I believe it when I see it"; meaning experiencing it. Now with radio and TV waves filling our space you do not hear that type of arguments anymore. We do not see the waves but we experience them. I know many people who do not think they believe in an invisible hand that guides them at times but they do not make the connection. I doubt if anyone reading these words did not have such an experience at one time or another.
I am a chemistry professor and as would be expected trained in inductive and deductive reasoning as well as in the scientific method. I had a couple of experiences with entities and "out of this world" experiences that I could not explain by nature' physical laws-a mostly invisible dimension to reality. That is all I needed to know "that there is more there than a physical dimension to reality, and that is all I needed to believe in the supernatural. Accordingly I could never be agnostic, let alone atheist.
December 7, 2007 7:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments

I remember the time when you often heard people saying things like" I believe it when I see it"; meaning experiening it.Now with radio and Tv waves filling our space you do not hear that type of arguments anymore. We do not see the waves but we exprience them. I know many people who do not think they belive in an invisible hand that guides them at times but they do not make the connection.I doubt if anyone reading these words did not have such an experience at one time or another.
I am a chemistry professor and as would be expected trained in inductive and deductive reasoning as well as in the sientific method. I had a couple of experiences with entties and "out of this world" experiences tht I could not explain by nature' physical laws-a mostly invisible dimension to reality. That is all I needed to know "that there is more there than a physial dimension to reality, and that is all I needed to believe in the supernatural. Accordingly I coud never be agnostic, let alone atheist.

WOW - atheists surely do have a superiority complex. And bad manners.

I have some uncomfortable news for this unfortunate young woman. It is not possible not to believe in God. Once you hear or see or spell the word God, you believe in him. You may not accept God. You may believe in rocks or whatever you believe in but you must believe in God in order to not believe in him.

Here is some insight for Chris and others who refuse to accept God. God set up parameters that people must accept whether they believe or not. God requested ten percent of all that you make. Some people call it tithes. You may not pay tithes but I bet you pay taxes which are gathered throughout the world at a rate of about ten percent. You don’t have to pay tithes but try not paying taxes. What about death? I think we are given an average of seventy five years to live, guess what the average life expectancy is for the entire human race? Try killing someone or stealing from someone or consorting with a neighbor etc.

So young lady, spend the rest of your life denying the existence of God because it doesn’t make any difference. You see, God knew people like you would be created. God loves you so much that he set up his system to protect you from yourself. END THE WAR IN IRAQ.

TO LU FRANKLIN:

On 11-20-2007 at 1:01 PM you posted, "Truth? THE TRUTH is that NO HUMAN BEING has any knowledge of God, or whether or not there is some sort of God.
THAT IS THE SIMPLE UNADULTERATED TRUTH."

I can't speak for any other human being but I do have knowledge that God exists and that God is a Trinity and that God is Love, Pure Love.

I have met God and I definitely know that I do not know everything, but one thing that I do know is that God is not the piece of garbage that some of the people that know His Name present Him to be.

I write using male pronouns because you have to use some kind of pronoun at times but God is not a he, a she or an it but is a Being of Pure Love. God-Incarnate was a man tho and His Name was Jesus, yes Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews.

God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. It is important what you do and why you do it and also what you know.

Some people seem to think that God is some kind of egomaniac and if you know His Name and say that, then you are in like flint, so to speak, well there are many that are in for a big surprize, some pleasantly and others unpleasantly.

Ultimately tho, all is well, God's Plan is for all of His children, and all of His brothers and sisters, which happens to be all of humanity, to be with Him in His Kingdom.

We will all be judged, you could say that it comes with the territory, so to speak, with being made in the image and likeness of God. God came up with a Plan before He made anything, material or spiritual, and His Plan is better than some think it is and better than some even want it to be.

Whether anyone else on this planet even believes it to be: God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

Take care, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

So let me get this straight.
1. It's stupid and senseless to believe that intelligence or the universe came from a random, chance happening - but it's perfectly logical to believe that an invisible, floaty man created the universe just so he could watch hairless apes run around a tiny rock in it but thought they were mean so he sent a guy into the womb of a random woman so he could turn die and turn into a zombie?
Neat.
Also, the difference between scientific and religious back-tracking is that when science does it, it improves, and when religion does it (like when your prophecies don't happen), well, they simply reinterpret it. Science admits it is never perfect or complete, but somehow a -2000 year-old book is? One that has nothing about photons, electrons, electromagnetic waves, and the like?
Why couldn't the universe itself be conscious? The planet regulates itself to some degree. I don't see any microscopic Jewish zombies run around making volcanic eruptions. You can think I am a silly "little atheist" (although I'm sure I have much more muscle than you, and am probably much taller too), but don't use a pathetic, nonsense little book compiled by a bunch of uneducated liars to try to prove me wrong - you simply need better ammunition.

Chris Everett posted: "But he’s really just wallowing in a pool of crapulence at the bottom of a well of ignorance."

I LOVE it!

I watched the NOVA special also, and was fascinated by it! I didn't need to see it to make me realize that what Vinny attempts to argue is ridiculous, but rather I was interested in seeing how ID was rationally denounced, and labelled as "crap", as it should be.

I loved the mousetrap as a tie clip response to the errant claim of irreducible complexity.

Unfortunately for those like Vinny, the METHOD of argument is every bit as bad as its emptiness.

Constantly claiming victory based on nothing, creating arguments that aren't worth having because they don't make sense and claiming victory in lack of response, condescending with the changing of the opponent's name to belittle them, shouting to divert attention from their invalidity...it's all just so sad. Truly pitiable.

I actually am a Christian. I just don't see why God can't create the universe with a single exposion. I don't see why he can't have set everything in motion THAT way. Why isn't evolution just the physical explanation of HOW he created all this?

The inability to reconcile faith with reason is a blasphemy to me becuase it is a refusal to use the brains God gave us.

Dear Vinny -

Almost forgot:

I hope you watch the PBS program on the Dover trial. On the program, Dr Michael Behe - an advocate of intelligent design - pulls a Vinny! He declares "the scientific literature has no detailed testable answers to the question of how the immune system could have arisen by random mutation and natural selection." The lawyer for the plaintiffs then presents Dr Behe with scientific articles that do EXACTLY what Behe says they don't, ie: they give detailed testable answers about how the immune system developed. When Behe says that the reports aren't detailed, the lawyer proceeds to heap books after book on the very subject in front of Behe until he disappears behind the stack of, er, "non-existent" detailed explanations.

Like Vinny, Dr Behe sits there unapologetic and unembarrassed that his idiocy has just been revealed to all, and maintains an air that his just-proven false statement remains unchallenged and true.

Like Behe, Vinny doesn't recognize a challenge to an argument when he sees it, so there's no hope at all that he'll understand when his fantasies have been dismantled.

Maybe Vinny is actually Michael Behe?

Vinny -

You're actively and willfully ignorant of science, so it's difficult to talk to you. My kids - who I thank you for mentioning earlier - comprehend things that just don't enter your intellectual orbit.

I suggest you watch this NOVA program on the Dover trial on ID.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html

It's a good place for you to start if you want to make your next post something less embarrassing than your stock in trade.

PS - have a great Thanksgiving.

Holy Crap!!!

That Vinny guy is an absolute caricature of the ignorant credulous religious fool!

No capacity to reason – thinks that argument is all about personal attacks. Why? Because religion is based on trust in authority, so debate is about undermining the authority of the opposition, which in a reason-free world means character assassination.

Intelligent design – Read the Kitsmiller vs. Dover transcript and see for yourself that ID is a fraud, and that its proponents (like Behe) KNOW it’s a fraud. Behe himself admitted that it was science only to the extent that things like ASTROLOGY are science.

God of the gaps – Evolution hasn’t explicitly discovered the circumstances by which chemical became self-replicating thereby becoming capable of natural selection. That doesn’t mean that any old gratuitous claim can step in and be considered true! Especially the God claim, which isn’t an explanation at all, since it provides no understanding of events whatsoever.

Credulity – Vinny doesn’t understand that a scientifically educated person finds his worldview to be utterly preposterous. He thinks he’s climbing Mt. VICTORY and vanquishing the atheists that wilt before his unstoppable faith. But he’s really just wallowing in a pool of crapulence at the bottom of a well of ignorance.

That felt good. It must be true.

For a moment, let's consider the argument of a being that exists "outside of time". Why only one? Why not multiple beings that exist out of time? What makes monotheism so much better than atheism or polytheism?

Since we're leaving the bible -- and I assume other sacred books of old -- out of this, you cannot fall back on these texts as a reason.

again friends there is no need to argue.

perhaps what i have said falls on deaf ears?

If anything rem. this.

when you pass, what you will encounter is beyond our scope

do not awed, fearful or terrified.

from this you will see a source of fear and a source of comfort

for each know now you will have no physical sense spheres so harm and physical pleasure are beyond cabability

remain aware, do not grasp or flee

know that all you see is the result of your own inherent capabiliy of awareness

do not be awed fearful or terrified
do not act, just observe.

WHEN IT COMES REMEMBER THOSE WORDS!

good bye and good luck on your journies

Poor Ender, is another lost atheist with no answers to how complex, organized things arise from nothing at all by nobody at all into amazing things.

My arguments have very little to do with THE BIBLE.

Throw out the bible, fine with me.

How did everything get here Ender?

If Intelligent men cannot create simple life from dead matter, though having all the needed parts in front of them; please tell us how COMPLEX LIFE, the universe, earth etc can possibly arise WITH NO INTELLIGENCE AT ALL REQUIRED?

Forget the bible. Forget religion. Fine with me.

You should try reading before typing next time.

I see nothing new here once again.

Another boring thread with atheists without answers.

Everybody have a nice Thanksgiving!

You too Markey.

Vinny

Vinny, Vinny, Vinny...why is your creation myth any better than that of the Hindus? Theirs is actually a little more rational, and allows for natural laws to have been in effect during creation. Your Sumerican creation myth of the old testement bible, relies on a singularity like Hawkin's Big Bang, where the laws of space/time are not applicable. Why is your irrational creation myth any better than the Dine's? Because your bible tells you so and the bible is true because it tells you so?

And the priest of your religions have to keep creating petty little tribal gods with human frailties and passions so you're little minds can accept. If the god of the Jews were real, I'd rather go to hell than worship an evil pile of human wasted effort like that.

Why'd your Christian priest kill the pagan priest? Their myths were no less steaming piles of primitive manure than yours, so you guys might have killed off the messengers of the true gods so they could fill their own pockets with wars and inquisitions in the name of a jewish carpenter.

AND WHAT F'N IDIOT BELIEVES IN A JEWISH CARPENTER?

MAYBE A JEWISH DOCTOR, OR LAWYER, MAYBE AN ENGINEER OR ARCHITECT,

BUT A JEWISH CARPENTER?

YOU'VE GOTTA BE A REAL MORON TO BUY THAT ONE.

Folks, our little atheists believe that all LIVING THINGS on the earth today; all plants, all trees, all vegetables, fruit trees, every single creature on the earth, whether in the ocean, lakes rivers or streams, whether on land or in the air; that ALL **HUMAN BEINGS** with their outstandingly complex brain's, circulatory systems, nervous systems, digestive and lymphatic systems, immune systems along with the ability to procreate through a remarkable Reproductive system; yep EVERY SINGLE LIVING THING that we see out there today arose either from some self-replicating polymer, which arose from DEAD MATTER, from some PRIMORDIAL SOUP-like quagmire all on it's own, without any guiding force WHATSOEVER.

Folks, our little atheists also believe that the entire UNIVERSE with all of it's PRECISION and ORDER and POWER just happened to result from some COSMIC EXPLOSION, without ANY INTELLECTUAL FORCE behind it at all, yet resulting in such precise alignment, that we humans (who came from that soup/dead-matter/polymer etc.) can tell exactly when and where planets, moons, comets, asteroids, stars etc. etc. will be located at any given moment in time.

Yep, our little atheists believe that in the middle of this intricate, expanding, gargantuan universe, our perfectly located, tilted, spinning and orbiting EARTH just happened to fall right into place (and stays in place) with atmosphere, ozone layer, water cycles, just the exact amount of oxygen and other delicately balanced systems due to some fortuitous series of LUCK.

A continuous stream of "FAT CHANCES" that all just fell right into place so that all of this LIFE could then arise from those soup-like, dead matter conditions where a polymer can turn into the human brain and beyond.

Not only do our little atheists BELIEVE THIS HILARIOUS LOAD OF GARBAGE, even though it's only a scientific "hypothesis" (cause it's NEVER been duplicated in ANY CONTROLLED scientific setting, so ain't even a THEORY yet).

But then, our little atheists go beyond just believing but now want to show up on this debate thread and CONVINCE OTHERS here to believe this same HILARIOUS LOAD OF GARBAGE.

Folks, like I said, this is why the web is so great today. It's all there in b&w PRINT for everybody to read for many years to come.

Poor little atheists.

MIKE K SAYS.: "Vinny asked, "Please tell us then, how extremely complex things, that are also organized, purposeful and everywhere, arise from nothing by nobody, all by themselves through mindless CHANCE and lots o luck?"

Where did your god come from?

****** MIKE, YOU ARE BORING.

That is such a sophomoric question.

Read it above. Is already answered.

God is the first Cause. Existing before time. Created time.

Never had a beginning.

There is only one First Cause. And that IS God.

MR MARK says:..."Just when one is about to give thanks for small favors, Vinnie reappears to spoil the moment with his oft- and easily-refuted claptrap.

Oh well. I'll guess we'll just have to concentrate on giving thanks for the big favors - like the limited time left in the bush presidency.

****** FOLKS YOU JUST GOTTA LOVE SORRY LITTLE ATHEISTS LIKE MR. MARKEY!

HE ALWAYS SHOW UP, BUT NEVER HAS ANYTHING TO SAY.

NOTHING NEW HERE EITHER, EH MARKEY?

Let me guess Markey, you have to spend time with your two kids today again, because they need you again, rather than get TROUNCED by vinny.

Is that about right?

I knew Markey would stop by.

But I also knew Markey would have nothing else to say on sorry atheist beliefs....

Markey never disappoints....

Have a nice Holiday Markey. Tell the kids hello from Vinny.

> "Did it [the universe] create itself? If it did not create itself, it must have had a CAUSE."

Did God create him/her/its self? If not, then what caused God?

> "Time then (as is also universally accepted and taught today) is accepted by science to have begun when the UNIVERSE BEGAN. The Creator of the Universe then --and subsequently of TIME ITSELF-- would have existed before time. He would not be subject to time itself, and most notably in this specific scenario, the need for a BEGINNING!"

> "He would not need a beginning, Having always existed, before time, and being the creator of time."

So, the rules of science apply when you want them to, and when faced with a contradiction, God gets an exemption. The universe "must" have a cause, but God must not. How terribly convenient.

What do you get the god who has everything?

Why did God create the universe? (Why would a perfect, complete, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent entity DO anything?) That would imply "want" or "need". Is God lonely? It's lonely at the top? ;-) Bored? Egotistical? Narcissistic? A very large child with very large toys? These sound like very human flaws this supposed perfect being has.

The usual answer is "mysterious" or "cannot understand the ways of..." And yet, in the same breath, people claim understanding and knowledge of the will of their gods.

P.S. Writing in all caps doesn't make a statement any more true.

Vinny, you're a putz, and you created your putzishness on your own, proving without a doubt that no intelligence is necessary.

ISA says:..."Vinny has been trolling the WPost for years. He makes the same claims everytime and gets slammed for his outrageous assumptions. His arguments against all he hates are identical in tenor.

He is PRO Bush, hates Islamofacists - even though they do not exist, out right LIBERAL hater. Claims to be a xian but a most vindictive xian. Just an all around miserable guy.

He goes under other names and must be a paid poster.

****** Folks you just gotta love atheists like ISA. IS LOST AND CLUELESS WITH NO ARGUMENTS ANYWHERE.

VINNY, IS MY REAL NAME.

I AM NOT PRO BUSH.

I AM NOT PAID! (BUT PROBABLY COULD GET MONEY FROM THE LITTLE ATHEISTS TO STAY AWAY FROM TROUNCING THEM)

: )

NOT ONE OF MY ARGUMENTS HAVE EVER BEEN DEBUNKED.

ANYWHERE.

NOT EVEN ONE TIME!

ASK MARKEY!

IF YOU THINK SO, THEN POST IT HERE.

LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS FROM ISA OUR DESPERATE LITTLE ATHEIST WITH NO ARGUMENTS AT ALL.

JUST WHINING ABOUT VINNY....

NOTHING NEW HERE EITHER.

CRAIG SAYS:..."Yes, it's impossible for complex things like snowflakes, mineral crystals, hurricanes, and stars to form by themselves from simple natural physical laws. Clearly God personally creates each one individually, even though we've never actually caught Him in the act of making one."

***** OUR POOR LITTLE ATHEIST IS CLUELESS!

The Supreme Designer creates NUMEROUS PROCESSES.

Is that really over your head here?

The Creator would be responsible for numerous processes in fact, for example the water cycle. The Reproductive system is an amazingly complex process as well. Photosynthesis. Nuclear Fusion etc.....

There are many processes DESIGNED to be functionally specific for designed purposes. I am sure you can see this is a reasonable explanation for certain things that may appear unguided.

If you simply think before typing....

CRAIG SAYS:..."Yes, it's impossible for complex things like snowflakes, mineral crystals, hurricanes, and stars to form by themselves from simple natural physical laws. Clearly God personally creates each one individually, even though we've never actually caught Him in the act of making one."

***** OUR POOR LITTLE ATHEIST IS CLUELESS!

The Supreme Designer creates NUMEROUS PROCESSES.

Is that really over your head here?

The Creator would be responsible for numerous processes in fact, for example the water cycle. The Reproductive system is an amazingly complex process as well. Photosynthesis. Nuclear Fusion.

There are many processes DESIGNED to be functionally specific for designed purposes. I am sure you can see this is a reasonable explanation for certain things that may appear unguided.

If you simply think before typing....

Just when one is about to give thanks for small favors, Vinnie reappears to spoil the moment with his oft- and easily-refuted claptrap.

Oh well. I'll guess we'll just have to concentrate on giving thanks for the big favors - like the limited time left in the bush presidency.

Thomas says:..."Vinny, If science creates life, will you then admit there's no god? Or will you instead:....."

***** Bwaaaahahahaahahahaha

The little atheist is in back pedaling and knows it.

WHICH IS WHAT ALWAYS HAPPENS TO ATHEISTS WHEN THEY HAVE TO DEFEND THIS MESS THEY HAVE.

Um, Thomas, I greatly look forward to the day that man creates life from dead matter. Though he has never, and may never.

But if he does, I will have a great celebration.

Do you know why Thomas?

I bet you do....

BECAUSE IT WOULD PROVE THAT IT TAKES ((((INTELLIGENCE)))) TO CREATE LIFE FROM LIFELESS!

Abiogenesis has never been done.

NOT EVEN IN A SCIENTIFICALLY CONTROLLED SETTING!!!

Random and unguided "Big Bangs" do not result in harmony and order of such precision men can predict the very location an object will be 5000 years from this moment. Random and unguided Big Bangs do not create intricate and purposeful features which allow numerous other events to result which are even more orderly, harmonious, intricate and purposeful.

As we all know, no big bangs on this planet have ever resulted in a brand new city with buildings, plumbing, central ac, paved roads and yellow cabs.

: )

The Universe exists and is real. If it did not exist we would not be here discussing it. So the obvious question is “How did the Universe get here?”

Did it create itself? If it did not create itself, it must have had a CAUSE.

The law of cause and effect is the most universal and most certain of all laws today. Simply put, the law of cause and effect states that every material effect must have an adequate cause that existed before the effect.

Every beginning has a cause. Is a universally accepted law today.

Otherwise please disprove it here.

What is so difficult to accept about the Universe having a "beginning" (universally accepted and taught today), and that beginning of the Universe being "caused" by God?

EVERY "BEGINNING" HAS A "CAUSE".

Time then (as is also universally accepted and taught today) is accepted by science to have begun when the UNIVERSE BEGAN. The Creator of the Universe then --and subsequently of TIME ITSELF-- would have existed before time. He would not be subject to time itself, and most notably in this specific scenario, the need for a BEGINNING!

He would not need a beginning, Having always existed, before time, and being the creator of time.

The bible supports this exact thing. (for what that's worth to THE SORRY ATHEISTS)

Like I stated in the beginning, either ALL THINGS; (Gargantuan Universe, spinning, orbiting feature-filled, beautiful Earth AND an abundance of amazing forms of LIVING THINGS) were Created by SOMEBODY, or they all arose through some series of unguided CHANCES.

What makes the most sense to you?

IF INTELLIGENT MEN CANNOT MAKE EVEN SIMPLE LIFE FROM DEAD MATTER TODAY, WHAT MAKES YOU BELIEVE THAT COMPLEX LIFE AND ZILLIONS OF AMAZING THINGS AROSE WITH (((NO))) INTELLIGENCE AT ALL?

When I add everything up together, I come to the overwhelming conclusion that all of this, around us today, is the result of something greater than mere chances with zero intelligence.

There are NUMEROUS EVIDENCES that support the need for a Creator. All beginnings have a cause has been demonstrated many times. The order and harmony and precision of the universe has been demonstrated many times. The earth itself with amazing, purposeful features that allow life to exist has been demonstrated many times.

There is also EVIDENCE, logical proof that an Intelligent Designer is responsible for all features of life today. Complex, intelligent, purposeful systems that reflect the intellect of that designer himself. Court cases have gone to trial where all of the "evidence" is all circumstantial.

Likewise there are numerous "evidences" that all life arrived due to the hand of a Master Designer.

The complexity and uniformity, the order and structure, the harmony of system after system, feature after feature, from the smallest molecules to the incredible living breathing life forces surrounding us all, to the incredibly complex earth where so many systems are just perfectly balanced all working together to allow life to exist are evidences to me that somebody surely must be responsible.

The far more complex, far more powerful and awe inspiring universe with star after star, planet after planet solar system after solar system all beautifully organized, with inconceivable, unimaginable amounts of power and energy, give further testimony, in my mind, that these things did not just "happen" through some unguided series of accidents.

WAKE UP ATHEISTS, YOU FOLKS ARE DEAD IN THE WATER.

AGAIN!

And I thought Free Republic had the best trolls. Outstanding work, Anonymous. Wall of Text with mysterious abilities to act on the unconscious, eh? Best of luck with that!

According to the Diné, (what the Navaho call themselves) they emerged from three previous underworlds into this, the fourth, or "Glittering World", through a magic reed. The first people from the other three worlds were not like the people of today. They were animals, insects or masked spirits as depicted in Navajo ceremonies. First Man ('Altsé Hastiin), and First Woman ('Altsé 'Asdzáá), were two of the beings from the First or Black World. First Man was made in the east from the meeting of the white and black clouds. First Woman was made in the west from the joining of the yellow and blue clouds. Spider Woman (Na ashje’ii 'Asdzáá), who taught Navajo women how to weave, was also from the first world.

Once in the Glittering World, the first thing the people did was build a sweat house and sing the Blessing Song. Then they met in the first house (hogan) made exactly as Talking God (Haashch’eelti’i) had prescribed. In this hogan, the people began to arrange their world, naming the four sacred mountains surrounding the land and designating the four sacred stones that would become the boundaries of their homeland. In actuality, these mountains do not contain the symbolic sacred stones. The San Francisco Peaks (Dook’o’oslííd), represents the Abalone and Coral stones. It is located just north of Flagstaff, and is the Navajo’s religious western boundary. Mt. Blanco (Tsisnaasjini'), in Colorado, represents the White Shell stone, and represents the Navajo’s religious eastern boundary. Mt. Taylor (Tsoodzil), east of Grants, New Mexico, represents the Turquoise stone, and represents the Navajo’s religious southern boundary. Mt. Hesperus (Dibé Nitsaa), in Colorado, represents the Black Jet stone, and represents the Navajo’s religious northern boundary. Pictures of these sacred mountains can be found by clicking here.

After setting the mountains down where they should go, the Navajo deities, or "Holy People", put the sun and the moon into the sky and were in the process of carefully placing the stars in an orderly way. But the Coyote, known as the trickster, grew impatient from the long deliberations being held, and seized the corner of the blanket where it lay and flung the remaining stars into the sky.

The Holy People continued to make the necessities of life, like clouds, trees and rain. Everything was as it should be when the evil monsters appeared and began to kill the new Earth People. But a miracle happened to save them, by the birth of Ever Changing Woman (Asdzaa Nadleehe) at Gobernador Knob (Ch’óol’í’í), New Mexico.

Changing Woman grew up around El Huerfano Mesa (Dzil Na’oodilii), in northern New Mexico. She married the Sun and bore two son, twins, and heroes to the Navajo people. They were known as "Monster Slayer" and "Child-Born-of-Water". The twins traveled to their father the Sun who gave them weapons of lighting bolts to fight the dreaded monsters. Every place the Hero Twins killed a monster it turned to stone. An example of this is the lave flows near Mt. Taylor in New Mexico, believed to be the blood from the death of Ye’iitsoh, or the "Monster who Sucked in People". All of the angular rock formations on the reservation, such as the immense Black Mesa (Dzil Yíjiin), are seen as the turned-to-stone bodies of the monsters.

With all of the monsters dead, the Navajo deities, or "Holy People", turned their attention to the making of the four original clans. Kiiyaa aanii, or Tall House People, was the first clan. They were made of yellow and white corn. Eventually other clans traveled to the area round the San Juan River, bring their important contributions to the tribe. Some were Paiutes who brought their beautiful baskets. Others were Pueblos who shared their farming and weaving skills. Still others were Utes and Apaches.

For her husband, the "Sun", to visit her every evening, Changing Woman went to live in the western sea on an island made of rock crystal. Her home was made of the four sacred stones: Abalone, White Shell, Turquoise, and Black Jet. During the day she became lonely and decided to make her own people. She made four clans from the flakes of her skin. These were known as the Near Water People, Mud People, Salt Water People, and Bitter Water People. When these newly formed clans heard that there were humans to the east who shared their heritage, they wanted to go meet them.

Changing Woman gave her permission for them to travel from the western sea to the San Francisco Peaks. They then traveled through the Hopi mesas where they left porcupine, still commonly found there today. Then they traveled toward the Chuska Mountains and on to Mt. Taylor. Finally, the people arrived at Dinetah, the Diné traditional homeland, and joined the other clans already living there. Dinetah is located in the many canyons that drain the San Juan River about 30 miles east of Farmington, New Mexico.

According to 1 Billion Hindus, There are several creation stories in Hinduism. Here is one of the creation stories from Hindu mythology.

Before this time began, there was no heaven, no earth and no space between. A vast dark ocean washed upon the shores of nothingness and licked the edges of the night.A giant cobra floated on the waters. Asleep within its endless coils lay the Lord Vishnu. He was watched over by the mighty serpent.

Everything was so peaceful and silent that Vishnu slept undisturbed by dreams or motion. From the depths a humming sound began to tremble, Aum. It grew and spread, filling the emptiness and throbbing with energy.

Aum, or Om

The night had ended, Vishnu awoke. As the dawn began to break, from Vishnu’s navel grew a magnificent lotus flower. In the middle of the blossom sat Vishnu’s servant, Brahma. He awaited the Lord’s command. Vishnu spoke to his servant: ‘It is time to begin.’ Brahma bowed. Vishnu commanded: ‘Create the World.’ A wind swept up the waters. Vishnu and the serpent vanished.

Brahma remained in the lotus flower, floating and tossing on the sea. He lifted up his arms and calmed the wind and the ocean. Then Brahma split the lotus flower into three. He stretched one part into the heavens. He made another part into the earth. With the third part of the flower he created the skies.

The earth was bare. Brahma set to work. He created grass, flowers, trees and plants of all kinds. To these he gave feeling. Next he created the animals and the insects to live on the land. He made birds to fly in the air and many fish to swim in the sea. To all these creatures, he gave the senses of touch and smell. He gave them power to see, hear and move.

The world was soon bristling with life and the air was filled with the sounds of Brahma’s creation.

There are as many creation myths as there are cultures. The seven day myth of the cults of Abraham, stolen from the earlier Sumerian belief system, is no more rational nor believable than any of the others.

These stories are mutually exclusive...they cannot all be true, and actually, only one could be true.

Simple logic and Occam's Razor says therefore they are all........................................

BS

Utterably absurd falsehoods created by primitive cultures to explain the unknown, and give power to the priest over other humans.

That is what all of you religious seem to ignore. There are perfectly good reason's for thousands of religions to exist, and for a handful to have survived for thousands of years, even though no more than one could be true, if any of them are true.

It is in the nature of homo sapien to create myths, and if the myths are told often enough humans will begin to accept them as truth, to give them strenght and hope throught the dark night in the cave while the monster awaits outside the light.

And it is the nature of some homo sapiens to use those myths to gain power over the others.

Look at Ron Hubbard. He told people he would create a religion because it was a way to gain money and power, and he did it, and about a million dumb arses believe him anyway.

Stop being fools. If there is a god, and unless it is the Coyote of the Dine', it would not suffer the devious con men most idiots follow.

The worst may be the new testement of the bible, because it preaches a benevolent message, while the underlying purpose is to keep you enslaved to the king of he day. Why do you think the Roman's adopted it? It's the prefect tool to keep humans to concerned for the afterlife, to raise up arms and take control of this one.

[

How many believers refuse to dump their superstitions simply because they don't want to be thought a fool, don't want to think of themselves as being a fool?

It this group of people, however large or small, who seem to be the most adamanantly for their beliefs, and the most vitriolic when condemning the non-believers.

How much of the this argument between the believers and the atheists exists simply because the atheists don't want to be bothered and the "adamants" simply can't allow that to happen?

My father was what I think I've read described as an "apatheist", he didn't care. I was raised without religion pro or con. It never came up as a topic of concern for any of us, except perhaps for remarks about how silly it all seems.

So I didn't have to earn my atheism as did Chris Borek, I never had to refute any of that nonsense fed into my head. I congratulate Ms Borek on her strength, and her compassion, and her apparent desire to be the best human she can be.

Vinny asked, "Please tell us then, how extremely complex things, that are also organized, purposeful and everywhere, arise from nothing by nobody, all by themselves through mindless CHANCE and lots o luck?"

Where did your god come from?

Are you actually trying to argue that intelligent life must be created by something, and your answer to this cosmic dilemma is intelligent life that *wasn't* created by something. You've just defeated our original point.

This is typical of all the confusion that exist in the world!!!
That being said, What or Where is TRUTH?
Why or How is this TRUE?
“CHRISTIANITY”
CHRISTIANITY at its core, when compared to all other beliefs, unbelief, religions, etc., in the world explains MARK, NAME, NUMBER, and IMAGE (Rev. 13:15-18/KJV), answering the 2000-year-old question.
sharehopeinpromise-ministry.org/blog

now perhaps you can see, the more you believe that kind of true happiness can be truly experainced from withuoght

the farther u will be from undertanding its true nature

thus, you will see throughout history the vast majority of religions promote austerity, while those withought religion or belief of some tangible form live in a somewhat different fashion

this is the greatest genious inherent in all of the religions because it puts you in an advantageous environment, though ultimately their remains the freedom of choice i looking

neither view is wrong.

in fact every different belief can be pronounced emphatically to be true, regardless of diffence in appearance.

some beliefs provide a relatively simple or more complex for this realization, but it takes place inevitably, it is spread not by word of mouth or text but through the faculty of awareness alone. The unstrung sound.

so whatever you believe dont be discouraged friend, your realization, and thus your happiness is all ready secured in its perfection.
That is your right, and THAT is the gift i speak of.

i failed to mention that just by reading that your subconscious will record a perfect duplicate of what your eyes have touched and slowly for some, quickly for others you will come to realize. Maybe days, maybe months, maybe years but some day you will.

with that you have my congratulations, and my apology depending on how you see it..

i like to consider it a gift tho..

Tomlinson?

No single phenomenon is permanent, not quanta, nor atoms, nor cells nor flies, human or mountain, this earth this solar system, galaxy or universe. Each is transitory in nature, hense while
you may be inclined to look at earths life in the context of time,

it would be wise to remember in science and religion it is dually noted the infinite nature of the comos as we know or percieve it.

Time in its most litterall sense is a form of measuremen, yet that wich is infinite is devoid of quantification, ie

time does not exist, only a sequence of events and is a construct of the purely intellectual faculties of the mind, and a testament to limitation. Limitation by nature desires limits.

(at this point perhaps we should strive to keep our minds spacious)

Similarly a sequence of events denotes cause and effect, ie nothing is random or "lucky" but dependant on causality.

This naturally leads to the understanding that because there is a cause for every effect, phenomenon arises dependant upon conditions. This means each is dependant on the other. A chair dependant on legs, dependant on natural or artificial material, dependant on elements in nature, dependant on counssciouss human beings who are dependant on mind and body and so on and so forth ad infinitum.

All parts dependant on each other hence dependant on the whole, and the whole dependant on the parts

perhaps a human bieng may find it simple to apply the following knowledge conclusively to absolutely every phenomenon we lay or awareness on and those that we do not, every religious, scientific, philisophical viewpoint, every failure, every success, every emotion, every moment. In fact by splitting it up in effort to understand it or argue it would serve only to support it.

In fact while trying to explain it, scientifically or abstractly, one may find the explanation becoming progressively smaller until the very words are broken down to the last vestiges of duality. "It" just "is". It is then that i realized to myself, even this is not sufficiet simply because there is in actuality no duality to it. The proper description can be found in the most inexplicable and incomprehensible word. fill in the blank with any and every word of your choice or leave it blank. either and all
are perfect descriptions. The inexplicable Truth, whether one chooses to believe it or not.

beyond quantification,
ifinite
all knowng
all potent
all present (this all sounds vaguely familiar, but interestingly enough it is difficult to pinpoint, but i must concede regardless of my ignorance from moment to moment it is no less true. its unfortunate that i cant describe what i sounds like, smells like tastes like looks like etc. etc. even though i have fleeting glimpses of it.)

We are all substituting names for the same thing

If you were to look at white light striking a prism you would similarly become aware of all colors of the spectrum.

The colors dependant on the white light and vice versa, each manifested throught the emptiness of a prism.

All the colors of the spectrum are created from white light

It is only in clarity of emptiness that the illusion of separate individual colors is made manifest, hence the one and the many are different only in appearance....

Likewise the more we live the illusion of differnce with each other, the furthr we will get to knowing what it is.

if one could read this, enough to grasp it, they would easily see it. Just a fleeting glimpse will bring so much joy, and happiness to anyone.

My good friend recently diagnosed with multiple Sclerosis had been experiacin two weeks of severe depression to the point that he had dropped out of sight. One night as we spoke he saw it for just a beautiful moment, and his depression dissapeared. in the following weeks the symptoms of his "illness" followed suit.

If the world at the same moment could catch a momentary glimpse, anger, hatred guilt war, would collapse as mankind grasped in tears of joy for this truth.

Nirvana?
God?
Enlightenment?
Nothing?

no one can show it to you but you.

Whether you skeptically disclaim and ignore, or begin your search in earnest

it will remain unobscured in its depths waiting, lovingly and knowingly for those who so choose to look for it. Those with the courage to look inside and face the most frighting demons, to the ultimate conclusion that they represent the very same illusions, thus they have no solid substance.

So embrace, because you my friend are infinit, immortal and indistructable

believe it or not you know it, but your not aware of it.

Peace

peace why?

just because

12:22 am
I have faith that science will continue to discover more about the world we live in because it has been so successful in the past. Every day there is some new understanding of biological functions, so I have every reason to expect that tommorrow will be a little better than today. The altruism gene will be discovered, and, unfortunately, it will turn out that the gene is active in a very small fraction of the human race.

Religious faith is not based on experience or provable phenomena. To have faith in a religion is to believe in a set of unprovable declarations contained in ancient texts and reinforced by the proseletizing clergy.

If there is a god, certainly today’s thinkers are far more qualified to chance a description than those who lived thousands of years ago and had only a minute knowledge of the real world.
In fact our earliest ancestors couldn't tell the difference between the natural and the supernatural;or between the real and the imagined.
They were really very very dumb by our standards today,and it figures that they would come up with the simplest most infantile explanation for the miracle of existence..God did it.

Ms Borek;
Good for you.You're calling it like you see it.And you don't see any god.Neither do I.
I think since 9/11 more of us have sat up and realized that religion is not just ridiculous but also dangerous,and it's about time we said ENOUGH already with the primitive superstitious claptrap.
There is no god,no devil,no heaven and no hell.
Lets grow up!! These are fairy tales.

naturally i have my own views, but what is evident is that this kind lady appears driven and content. She seems respectable regardless of her personal belief.

pardon my grammer im pressed for time.

As the claims of some likening religious belief systems to the tooth fairy? True eductation of self goes a long way towards realizing the futile postureing inherent in mindless critiscism.

by the way i do not claim a particular religion.
Likewise wouldnt consider myself an athiest either. What i do know is that there are forces at work that both would easily befit our rudimentary discription of an entity that is beyond our comprehension.

On genetics, it should be known that in its modern form it has been shown that genes alone account for a fracion of the development of an individual human being. Environment likwise
is relegated to similar importance.

It has been shown that the individual cells of each distinct human being has a specific protien combination completely unique in its appearance that is stimulated by a particular frequencey of energy. And that frequency alone, while at the same time, each frequency is ultimately a part of the entire spectrum. Immutabel,indestructable, regardless of having particular physical cell to activate.

Please let the implications sit. Epigenetics.

similarly on the scientific method. As much as it has accomplisched it is far short of fullfilling the desired purpose. Note that science aknowledges the objective. Life, yours and mine all everyone in between is a purely subjective experiance. Im of the impression that some believe we are computers who interact and analyze data devoid of the human aspect.

One of the richest men in the world of particular proficiency in the cutting edge of computer technology likened the cingle cell to a super computer, though incomprehensibly more advanced.

This is not the brain, or the eye or the organism as a whole but the cell alone in which our technological peak pales in comparison to.

Let me reiterate i claim no religion. But in search of undersanding i did come across a number of Atheist manifestos in the form of The God Delusion amonsgt others filled with language like "This represents the nail in the coffin of the delusion of god" amonsgt others and was filled with the lasting insight that those wise,
so wise and scientfic souls may have been denied sufficient maternal affection as children. That is hate filled. A hug perhaps?

Like wise on the scientific method. The "hard" sciences as of late are making an effort to label
psychology a psuedoscience.

The computer screen you are currently looking at as well as EVERY SINGLE CREATION AND PEARL OF KNOWLEDGE mantianed in all of humanity was first concieved purley and solely in the MIND. Everything. Withought exception.

Similarly, from two feet to a BMW. from a chinese calculator to a pentium processor to the very shoes on your feet are improvements, formulated in non physical, purley conceptual ability, based on a previous frame of reference

as an IMPROVEMENT on that frame of reference for the sole purpose of better fullfilling the desired effect of the given phenomenon.

This leads to two undeniable, truths.

1. Consciosness is the
impetus, the one absolutley reqiured factor in the formulation of our highly praised scientific method. Thus to disregard the non physical realm of consciousness because it is not understood by its own CREATION is counter intuitive, counter productive and ulimately a decision utterly devoid of INTELLIGENCE. (interestingly you could easily draw a similar parrallel to the Scientific approach to God)

2. This fact is so clear you cant even see it! no pun intended.

When one of our creations no longer fullfills its desired purpose we IMPROVE it. That is what human beings do.

This process is evident in everything we have laid our hands on. So if this oh so perfect method cannot touch the most important aspects of human life ie, consciouness and the subjective experiance, gentlemen, it is no longer serving its purpose.

Here is an enlightening activity.

look up the definition of psueoscience
now famliarize yourself with the prerequisites of verifiction via the scientif method

now see where the following phenomenon may be catagorized.

1. Darwins Theory of Evolution
2. The Big Bang theory
3. Black holes
4. Redshifts
5. Super novas
6. Universe
7. String Theory
8. M theory
9. fill in the remaining multitude of numbers with phenomenon of your choice!

Maybe this puts things into perspective? no?

perhaps this will...

Consider of our observed universe (i emphasize observed) only 4 % is constituted of matter, 22% dark matter, and 74% dark energy (please verify for yourselves) Dark matter, and dark energy are hypothetical in nature. The names alone point to our complete ignorance of them. This from the mouths of the very scientists who discovered (or inferred) the existance of them...

on evolution

look outside, get out of the laboratory, in nature you will find not a battle for survival but a constant search for cooperation....
in the very cells in which your body is made up of, ultimatley, this is a symbol of cooperation, not a symbol of a cellular pissing contest, cooperation and compassion is the essence of life itself. All of this towards the goal of creating and enhancing life hence if you model your society off of a fictitous belief the fruit will bear themselves.....

for instance take any classroom in America and have the students of whatever age group utilize the Darwinian principal of survival of the fittest (which is by and large reflects the modus operandi of our educational system as a whole )and compare it to a classroom that promotes cooperation and mutual support towards a common goal, as individuals and as a whole who will achieve the highest attainment of that goal?.....im sure the answer is self evident.....

It is overwhelmingly clear that life is an incredibly succesful phenomen, to veiw ourselves as not partaking in the same process is ignorant. Ultimately whether we see it in this life time or the next, or if we remain unawares of it, the conscious evoltion will take place regardless of our belief systems. This is because despite what many think, in life, we are no different then life itself in all of its manifestations. All of our technology, all of the sciences etc etc. make it clear that we have been systimatcally attempting to reproduce to some degree or another the natural phenomen inherent in life itself. The Goal of life.

here is a visualization excersise

Visuallize a vivid flower in maturation spreading is pollen, its very life essence in order to bring fertilization and life to other more favorable grounds at maturity.

Now imagine you are on the moon viewing the earth and you can see our satellites orbiting the earh, and let come to mind that asperation to colonize other planets.

perhaps the conlusions will be drawn themselves? but surely we are smarter than plants?!

I failed miserably in high school. I have yet to go to college. i have thus far sought education on my own, to fullfll my own desire for understanding. Instead i spent four years in the Marine Corp as an squad leader in a line company. (front line). And in that most unnatural of acts, during my two combat tours in the anbar province and sunni triangle respectively. i came to a stunning realization.

Everyting mankind is aware of is but a pinpoint of understanding in vast ocean of truths, many of wich lay quite simply outside the human ability for comprehension.

Likewise at our "intellectual and technological peak" though we attempt to mimick life (often witought even knowing it)

We have not come even close, to replicating its efficiency, even with all of our "intelligence"

This may help put delusions of granduer into perspective.

Now you may choose to put faith in human beings that attempt to master the environment when the vast majority have yet to master themselves.

Me, i say you cant race if you cant drive the car. Know yourself perhaps? study your own min an body maybe?

this is known as meditation. Although its true form has been somewhat obscured in its transition from the east.

Perhaps you believe you know your own mind?
To study the self in a manner which will bear fruition is to observe your own inner workings IN A PURELY OBJECTIVE MANNER. another words you must put aside the ego and utilize objective obseration of a purely subjective phenomenon. experiance.

When you do so, truths will become evident. When you have mastered yourself and no longer are subject to the cinematic delusion of pure intellectualizing you will understand, for yourself. No man will tell you these truths, nor will you read them in your external awareness. They are yours and yourse alone garnered experienttially.

It is worth noting that under hypnosis, human biengs lack the ability to lie, and can only speak truthfully, the truths being those found in experiance.

So when you my friend, have matered self, as well as the scientists in whose opinion we stake our government, our lives and the education of our children perhaps then you will have the ear of human beings that have done so. True knowledge, like happiness itself is from within. Until a human being seeks to understand the very nature of themselves, we will continue barkng up treas that dont exist.

Im of the motto, believe no one but self.
to believe is to understand to understand is to observe. This capability is inherent in ever human being being regardless of intelletual capacity if only you would be willing to look...

You can feel the heat, see the light but friend if you dont look up, you will never see nor understand the sun.

I once asked a man, what color is a crystal. he replied simply that it was clear. and i said, what does clear look like. this confounded him as human beings cannot see clarit, but only the images and colors on which the object of clarity is super imposed. Hold up a crystal in any environment and try to see clarity, not backrounds or impurities in the substance itself, but clarity. You know what? You can see clarity, or true emptiness, but only with the aid of imagination. (dependant on consciouness i might add)

When through familiarizingy yourself with self, you come to this startling and inevitble conlcusion
you will have reached what is called elightenment, and will join the ranks of Jesus Christ, Buddha, The Prophet Mohammed pbuh. (it i worth noting that each spent great ammount of time in secluded meditation)

to name a few respected and respectable notables. Then perhaps you will understand the nature and importance of each of these wise souls teachings. Hence can see withought the obscuration inherent in human cognition.

until you know within you can not and will not know withought as your observation will be subject to the very obscuration that manifests in your consciousness. This is regardless of intellect. Hence everyone is capable of understanding, in fact you will encounter a variety of phenomenon and understanding of issues i will not discuss because of its incomprehensible nature (particularly to those who believe life is dependant on this physical body)

It is also of note that most of these will appear as vivid memories manifested in the present...

all completely natural yet many outside the realm of science.

you can do it! all of you! and you dont have take what someone esle claims is truth, it is all right there in all of you, waiting to be seen.
how nice is that? it couldnt possibly be any better!

perhaps then friend

you will see things clearly

"How many hospitals, charities, and help for the poor and downtrodden have you seen started and maintained by atheists? None."

How many wars have been started by atheists because (allegedly) God told them to?

"How many hospitals, charities, and help for the poor and downtrodden have you seen started and maintained by atheists? None."

How many wars have been started by athiests because (allegedly) God told them to?

Vinny has been trolling the WPost for years. He makes the same claims everytime and gets slammed for his outrageous assumptions. His arguments against all he hates are identical in tenor.

He is PRO Bush, hates Islamofacists - even though they do not exist, out right LIBERAL hater. Claims to be a xian but a most vindictive xian. Just an all around miserable guy.

He goes under other names and must be a paid poster.

> In vitro fertilization? Come on, where did the genetic material come from for that? Was it pre-existing?

I'm not certain where you're going with that... My argument was that many religious communities repeatedly deny the possibilities of what is yet to be proven/accomplished. Then later, when a breakthrough is made, these communities retroactively changed their position rather than admit their mistake.

The fact that genetic material existed before in vitro fertilization has no bearing on the argument presented.

However... So what? I concede: Genetic material existed before in vitro fertilization. In fact, it is highly likely that the genetic material for humans existed before humans. See: "theory of evolution"... ;-)

Are you claiming that God built everything from the chair you're sitting on to biological weapons to pornography? Because one could argue that they're all made from "pre-existing" material.

DISCLAIMER: The above argument was written by God, since humans do nothing on their own and the electrons being transmitted to your screen were "pre-existing". Hence, the above argument is perfect and infallible. ;-)

Hateful not reasonable:

Responding to your anti-atheist hate mongering is hardly elitist. You make unsupported, nonsensical statements, I respond with facts. BTW, I already posted that the 'smarter than you' comment was hyperbole. Apparently, you can't read too well either.

You may not like atheists, and I really don't care. But, when you throw down your hate-filled anti-atheist BS, you will be called on it - every time.

Finally, 15 million atheists - and that number may be low - is more than all Jews, Muslims and Pagans in America combined. We're not going away.

"I have debated with atheists many times. They always get stuck explaining how complex things arise from nothing by nobody."

Yes, it's impossible for complex things like snowflakes, mineral crystals, hurricanes, and stars to form by themselves from simple natural physical laws. Clearly God personally creates each one individually, even though we've never actually caught Him in the act of making one.

What I love the most, is that our 'Age of Reason' is only a few centuries long, roundabout the year 1600 or so, man REALLy starting using this fantastic idea called the 'scientific method' Anyone who has been to American schools has heard of it. Since man began using this 'scientific method' we have discovered amazing things. Electricity, flight, modern agriculture, internal cumbustion, lasers, space flight etc. etc. etc.

400 years.

How long has religion been around? 10,000+ years? What did we have to show for it?

A flat Earth and leeches, and the leeches were frowned upon.

Yet theists decry evolution because no one has CREATED life yet. Sorry, man cannot elevate themselves to the status of gods as yet, give us another 9600+ years when science has been around as long as religion, guess where we'll be?

WHAT are we supposed to be getting from religion again?

Go ahead theists, spout your denial.

pretty amusing that most of the christians who post in regards to atheist/agnostic postings are displaying accusatory, judgmental and um... relatively un-christian behavior.
last time i checked, 'turn the other cheek" and that whole thing about glass houses kind of precluded people from condemning those who may not share thier beliefs.