Comments (45)

Larry,

Now I realize why you are so confused. You can't tell the difference between Christianity and the christianist society in which we live. You probably don't know that 91% of "Christians" in the United States aren't going to Heaven. The "ask Jesus into your heart" crowd is as lost and damned as you are. Jesus said, "Lest ye be born-again, ye cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven." Jesus said "Except ye repent, ye shall likewise perish." Paul said, "But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us."

Repent and Trust, Larry; there is no other way.

If you want to attack the christianist culture of America, then go ahead, but don't mistake true Christianity with the squishy money-grubbing prosperity preachers whom are completely, totally, wrong.

A sinless Buddhist will go to Heaven. Absolutely, no question.

Find me a sinless Buddhist.

Canyon,
Are you kidding? To say that acceptance of Jesus is not a tenet of your faith is disingenuous at best. I can't tell you how often I'm told that you can only reach the "Father through the Son".
And contrary to your explanation of convenience, the "come to Jesus and repent of your sins" mantra is preached incessantly.

No, Canyon. You are not being real here. Notwithstanding the sin, let's discuss the sinner. Please tell me the "sinless" Buddhist can enter the gates of heaven without embracing Jesus and I will have a new respect for your thinking.

Larry,

Thank you for proving that you are not paying attention but rather filtering my posts through your religion.

Please make an examination on the sinfulness of sin, and then see if that Buddhist or murderer deserves anything less than Hell everlasting.

I never said diddly squat about accepting Jesus. That is you wanting my religion to be wrong. There is no such thing as "accepting Jesus" in the Bible, and you flying to it as your refutation of Christianity shows how lost you are.

I say that a dog can produce another dog. This is scientifically observable. It is science.

You say that a dog can become a porcupine. That is not observable in real life or in the fossil record. No animal has ever created an animal of a different kind. Your version of variation is pure religion in the blindest of senses.

Repent and Trust, Larry; there is no other way.

Canyon,
One more thing. I was musing on your literal defense of the Ark story and was captivated by your convenient conclusion that there was no need for all species of dogs to be on the ark, merely two. from which the others would develop via "variations".

This was your proof to refutate evolution?

So lets take your theory a bit further. Let's say the two lucky dogs on the ark were a greyhound and a spaniel. And from these two, through a series of "variations," we now have the beagle, the St. Bernard. and the toy poodle??

But there is no such thing as evolution.?

Canyon,
You need to sit back, without the blinders of your faith, and think this through.
To believe that one can be a sinner throughout life, then by merely accepting Jesus into one's life, be forgiven of those sins and allowed into the gates of heaven is not only logically absurd but morally reprehensible.
The murdering pedophile says "forgive me, I accept you as Lord and Savior" and gets in ---while the non-violent Buddhist sits outside, unable to enter?
And you seem like a rational man!

Larry, I'm not sure if I'm understanding or misundertanding your point, but I know you are missing mine.

Sin is a bad thing. Christianity began long before Christ was born, only it wasn't called Christianity then; rather Judaism.

The merits of this religion are a perfect explanation of the origins of death(sin), the sinfulness of sin(death), and the willingness of God to accept the atoning death in the place of human beings.

Until you understand how much God hates sin, then the events on the cross and the fallen state of the world won't make sense. God hates sin so much that He once killed a husband and wife just for telling one lie. He once smote a man for touching something that God forbade him touch.

The wage of sin is death. Because Jesus was the perfect, sinless man, He had no wages amassed and no fine to pay. He would have never died. Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." It was a gift. If there are other ways to atone for sin, then Christ has died in vain; rather there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. The wage of sin is death, without an atoning death, there is no other worthy substitution.

If you would have there be, then you make God into an unjust judge. A judge that demands death for transgression of the law and will accept anything less is a bad judge. A judge that says, "All murderers will be executed!" and then let's murderers go because they seem to be sorry for their crime, is a bad judge.

When you take a moment to realize that all of the death in the world today is the result of ONE sin, that God says that lying lips are an abomination, that a death is due for your sins, and that you can pay it, or you can receive the gift of Christ that He paid it for you...then it will make sense to you.

You have to believe it to see it.

Canyon,
You missed my point. I hope I understand yours. So you are saying that if Christ did not die, (willingly or not) he would still be wandering and preaching today? Is that what the son of God would be doing? Where is the story in that? Where is that a new religion? Jesus would simply be a Methusala like Rabbi figure preaching the golden rule. Unless he died, (in your words, "willfully") there is no religion called Christianity. What gives Christianity its roots are the death, burial, and most importantly resurrectiopn of the man-God jesus. Thus (my point) he HAD to die. How can you then explain the villification over centuries of others allegedly responsible for a death that was imperative, and yes inevitable. Otherwise he could have prevented it. Surely there are other ways to take on the sins of others, other than succumbing to a death you have the innate and supernatural power to avoid.

I can argue with that, because you clearly don't understand sin and death. Had Christ not willfully died on the Cross, not given Himself up as the Passover Lamb, then He would never have died. As a sinless man, He would still be living with us today, 1968 years later.

I'm not sure how you think that the death of Christ is a valid disprover of Christianity?

I rethink my religion everytime I learn about a new one, or anytime a new evolutionary 'evidence' is discovered.

The wonderful thing about truth is it cannot be untrue. And everytime I examine a new religion, it falls far short of the truth. How can you claim your conclusion is respectful when it is totally wrong...yet you preach it on the internet?

Do you still believe dogmatically in the religion of evolution?

Canyon:
I'm not attacking your belief. Just proving that what you claim as truth is nothing more or less than any other religion's claim of truth. And yet somehow, you feel the need to push your truth on others. (Nice try with the blindfolded cliff walker)

You ask me to rethink the certainty of evolution by pointing out certain incongruities, i.e. there should be more fossils of transitional species. Well how about rethinking, as a rational man, what you believe.
Go ahead and explain my Superman thesis above. If he was God, he didn't have to suffer beatings and he most certainly didn't have to die, did he? And if that is the case, then why all the blame game about his death. Jews have been vilified as Christ killers for centuries.
And yet, as I see it, he had to die to attain his status as the "blood of the lamb" on the cross, taking on the sins of man.

Without his death there is no burial and resurrection. And what happens if he doesn't die? Does he wander Israel for 30 more years only to finally succumb to a gall bladder infection? Where is the great story in that!
Stop acting so smug Canyon. You may think you know the truth but it is truth masked in hubris. Rational analysis (the same type of analysis you ask of others), leads me to a very different (and yet totally respectful) conclusion. You can't argue with that.

Larry, your brainwashed state has shone through when you are incapable of defending your own faith, rather attacking mine.

Canyon,
You said "Evolution requires huge amounts of blind faith".

I would submit you have to be just as blinded to believe that the same man who cured the leper and made the blind man see could not avert his own death. It's like Superman stopping a hail of bullets only to be beaten by a street gang.

There have been prophets galore and false Messiahs are legion, but you have come to believe (through blind faith) that you somehow know the truth of it all.

Each story matches what your faith demands. You accept the divine creation of all species, thus, as example, the Ark story must be true, despite the scientifically incongruous fact that the kangaroo, polar bear and puma come from diverse geographic domains.

Anonymous,

That is a very fair question and I'm glad you asked it.

The main reason I feel it imperative to implore you to research the different world views and find the one that is truth, is because the end destination of the one that makes the most sense says there is a very real and very painful afterlife waiting for you; of which you are running full speed and earning every step of the way.

If you were blindfolded and walking towards a cliff, it would be my duty to warn you of the impending fall. I hope that you would do the same for me.

So many people that are indoctrinated into the religion of evolution don't think it is a religion. That is the true danger of a cult; you think you're the only one right without questioning the facts. Evolution requires huge amounts of blind faith and imagination. The originator of the religion said that there would need to be millions of transitionary fossils to back up his hypothesis; to date there have been dozens of disproved transitionary fossils and only one(to my knowledge) which MIGHT be a transition, but probably is a fully formed animal. How anyone could believe that in the hundreds of thousands of fossils we've found, somehow the transitions are really well hidden? It's a religion to beat all religions in the blind faith arena.

I willingly listen to any other proponent of any religion, whether it be Hindu, Buddhist, atheistic Agnostic, evolutionist; or any other. The mark of truth is it's ability to stand up against scrutiny and foe; take the following three examples:

Islam - "O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." -Surah 5:101-102

Evolution - "But it's science!" - Lisa Simpson

Christianity - "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." - 2 Timothy 2:15

Russell,

My sincere appologies for being away so long, I had unexpected duties come up during the past week.

I'm not sure how to respond to your question regarding energies. I am inclined to say that because I have never experienced such a thing and have read very few reports of people that can do it(of which, all were conflicting), I don't have an opinion on it...

But imagine someone in 1800 said, "I don't believe in electromagnetic waves that propogate through the air and are able to be superhetrodyned onto speach, thus delivering voice communications over long distances." Just because they didn't know about radio waves back then or have any way to measure them didn't mean they didn't exist.

I believe there is a great deal about this Universe we have yet to uncover, and I get excited thinking about the "Easter Eggs" which God has placed in our journey through time.

Remember, It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.
-Proverbs 25:2

Canyon,
I am not trying to disparage your faith. You can believe whatever you want. The overriding question is: why do you feel compelled to convince me to believe what you believe?

Evolution is not a religion. It is a scientific way of explaining the unexplainable. If you recall, thunder was thought to be the wrath of angry gods in ancient days. The unexplainable events in nature were relegated to some spiritual origin until science advanced to show the way to enlightened thinking.

And that's really what the Ark story and the Tower of Babel are, aren't they. Ways to help explain events and realities for the masses. Not far fetched literal truths.

You happen to believe that Jesus was the messiah and the son of God. Fine. A friend once told a Christian trying to "convert" him that the messiah was supposed to bring peace. The Christian said "that will happen at the second coming". My friend said, "that's the thing, I believe the messiah would get it right the first time! LOL
And how do you reconcile your desire to convince others to believe as you do with the premise of the golden rule? Would you really want a Hindu, or Buddhist knocking on your door saying "I pray that you see the light Canyon and come to worship Vishnu the one true God."
I trust you would quickly close the door.

I'll let you know this, I don't intend to bank on a deathbed conversation. I intend to have no regrets by the time I go. But if it happens today or tomorrow, or a year from, now, who knows. I might have some regrets, but they won't be very big.

As for the race car analogy, I would have to agree on that one. I wouldn't take all the credit, I'd have to thank the guy that built it. But for me, it is not the same as being created by God. It just isn't. I am sure if I was a different person, I might see it like that, but I don't. It's that personality thing.

People tell me that I have a gift. People tell me I have a gift from God. I draw. I draw well. I don't see it as a gift. I see it as a skill. But it is a skill that I taught myself how to do. I didn't wake up one day and was able to draw. It took me years, and I still haven't figured it all out. I improve every year. To me, it is something that I like. And if you find something you like, you want to be as good at it as possible. I have never seen it as a gift from God because I didn't have help while I was doing it. I did it on my own because I love doing it.

Now I have something that I want to ask. Maybe you can relate.
Ever been around a person or people and you can just feel their energy? I have. It is something that fascinates me and intrigues me, especially since I have been told that I have it, and that members of my own family have it. And the members of my family that have it are not Christians. They are Buddhist. But that is besides the point. I kind of like to believe that we all have an energy to ourselves, whether its a godly thing or not. Since I don't believe in god, I am enclined to say it is down to the person. The radiance from one person can shine stronger than in another, and I see that as a good thing. Those are the people that can make a difference and can bring others to better themselves. If I see it in someone, then I know that is a person that can truly do great things.
This is just a wondering. hope you know what I am talking about, and i'd like to know what your thoughts are on the subject.

And on a personal note Canyon, it is good to know that we can agree to disagree. It is refreshing. Talk to you again soon.

Russell,

I think we've discussed this before on whether my successes have been mine or God's through me. I would love to think I am the one that has made all of the money, have such great friends, and am able to type so fast, but that would be a definite transgression of loving the gift more than the giver.

As I'm sure you know, I'm all about analogies. Imagine, then, a race car. The race car is masterfully designed. You've been hired to drive it, and with that race car, you win the 24-Hour at LeMans race! You go to the race-car designer and say, "Aren't I great? This victory was 100% mine."

The race-car manufacturer is gonna be a little mad, because you didn't win the race, the car won the race, without it, the best you could expect to do is about 11 mph for any length of time.

Without you, another driver could have taken that same car to victory. Your body is doing all the work, I don't suppose you custom ordered your lungs so that they would suit your breathing, or that you've specially modeled your heart for efficiency. Are you in control of those things? Make your heart skip a beat, or make your fingernails stop growing... You may have inputed the information into your brain and learned how to use this body, but the design is not yours and can be taken away by the body-maker.

I'm not surprised at all to learn that you want to be in control of your fate. That is the human-condition. Adam and Eve didn't want to need God either and sought to be gods. I don't want to need God, I don't want to be limited to only breating oxygen either. It would really make my life easier if I could go on living without oxygen...and oxygen is infinitely less necessary and important than God.

I am enjoying this conversation with you, I'm certain we'd get along in-person, I'm a pretty amiable guy, but I'm not tolerant of purposeful ignorance or the spreading of lies, so a lot of people who do those things really don't like me. I'd rather they don't like me here on Earth than to arrive in Hell and say, "THAT SOB CANYON NEVER WARNED ME OF THIS PLACE!"

I attended a funeral of a Marine Lance Corporal about three weeks ago; 20 years old, survived a whole deployment in Iraq, and upon arriving home, his heart stopped from a genetic defect that was undetected. You never know when you're gonna die.

150,000 people die every day, I'd bet you 145,000 of them expected to see tomorrow. Please don't bank on a death-bed conversion, because very few people get that opportunity, and there is a very real chance(albeit small) that you or I could be #149,998 on the March 30th list...

Larry,

With all due respect, attempting to deride my religion doesn't make yours any more true. I won't defend the ark here because it's been done too often, and all you really need to do if you were really interested in learning, is look it up. I've researched your religion ad nauseum, now it's your turn to research mine.

Playing the variation=evolution game is how you've been brainwashed so effectively. My favorite example is the sugar beat; approximately 30% of the world's sugar comes from this plant. In nature, they contain 7-10% sugar; they have been seriously and completely genetically engineered and now the highest concentrations contain 22% sugar, albeit the quality begins to diminish after 15% sugar.

If evolution was true, we'd be able to create a 100% sugar beat, but variation is limited within the species, you can't make a sugar beat turn into an apple, no matter how much you vary it. It produces after it's own kind.

That is the exact opposite of your wild beliefs, that say a sugar beat can someday become a wildebeest.

That's to say; when I was five, I could jump one foot in the air, when I was fifteen, I could jump two feet in the air, and with a lot of training and excercise, I can now jump 2.5 feet in the air...soon I'll be able to jump to the moon.

You've gotta use science to look at this stuff, there is a limit to my jumping, there is a limit to variation. Evolution is a stupid religion.

You know something Canyon, you're right about what Lincoln said. I think life is too short to figure out the way the world works. Our brains have so much capabilities that we can't possibly use all of it in our short lifetime.

The parachute analogy is good. It seems to work.
I really don't know how to respond to it. I'll just go on with what I was talking about. I don't know if everybody needs religion. Seems that people can get by just fine without it. I know I can. I know that when I score a hat trick playing soccer, I don't thank God, I thank my teammates and I thank myself. If I whif the ball and we lose the game, I don't blame God, I just say that I need to do better next time and go home and work on my volleys.

And you know what, you're right about one other thing, I am lost, but not when it comes to religion. I am lost as to who I am to be later in life and making myself a better person. It is something that I am seeking help with, and learning new things about myself. For instance, I took a personality quiz and learned that people with my personality only make up 1% of the population. I found that interesting, so at least in that regard, I can say I am pretty unique. But I am working on making up for my mistakes. I don't need a God, because it takes my faith away from me and my family and puts it out of my hands. This may seem trivial and wrong to you, but that is how I see it. I do my best not to judge people, and I do my best to get along with everyone. I bet I'd even get along with you under the right circumstances. But all this that I do now, I have learned over the course of my life, and I've still got years to go, and miles to travel before I know it all. I try to relate my life experiences into how I go about life. I only hope that it comes out the way in which I intend it.

Canyon,
Well I'm back and noted that you did not refute the ark story. It's fine ior you to believe it, but it will never be supportable on any scientific grounds, NEVER.

But what's with your parsing of the term "variations". One man's "variations" is another's "evolution".
Me thinks you just got hoisted on your own petard!

There is an interesting etymological revolution going on with the world religion. The origins of the word "religio" are debated, but today it has changed to what you 'rely-on'. There is a degree of faith necessary in all of daily living, and especially in all world-views. I am comforted that by far, Christianity requires the least amount. It is an empirical religion in almost all aspects.

But part of the etymological change is that religon is starting to be defined as, "Using God for man's purposes." Or using God to get money or power. I hate that kind of religion. Notice; I haven't said, "If you agree, please send me $5" or, "Now that I've preached at you, go join the Southern Baptist Convention." I am simply "instructing those that oppose themselves; so that maybe God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." I'm not after any money or power, and any Glory gets funneled straight up to God.

In the end, true religion and true philosophy(Study of Wisdom) should arrive at the same point. Through all of my studies, they do.

That is an interesting statement you made about religion being needed by most people. The reason that 'most' people need religion is because God has placed eternity in our hearts(Ecc 3:11).

But is it most or all? Abraham Lincoln used the argument that our infinite ability to learn and store knowledge lends towards the probability of life-after-death. He felt that a short lifetime would be a waste for our ever expanding brainpower. Deep down we all know there is something more, even the devout humanist Carl Sagan(May God have mercy on his soul) believed as much; although his religion was directed quite the wrong direction.

But do we all need religion? Does everyone that jumps out of an airplane at 18,000 feet above the ground need a parachute?

Absolutely not; gravity is going to take you as soon as you step outside of the lifting body of the aircraft. It doesn't matter if you have a parachute on or not, gravity is at work.

Does everyone that wants to live need a parachute if they jump out of an airplane at 18,000 feet above the ground? Absolutely.

Some religions look like they might work, just like water looks soft when you're falling. But there is only one way to survive a freefall.

As you've heard me say before, we've transgressed the law of God like we've transgressed the law of Gravity. By placing yourself in direct opposition to God and preaching against Him and promoting the religion of evolution, you're telling people, "There is no ground at the bottom of the fall, jump out of the airplane naked for all I care." You've trangressed God, you're in a freefall. God's incredible longsuffering and mercy have brought you safe thus far...imagine our parachuteless jumper has a radio, his first message after ten seconds of falling, "This is the most incredible feeling I've ever had!"

After a minute of freefall, "So far so good!"

After a minute and eight seconds? Splat, the wrath of the ground takes over.

You need a parachute, Jesus Christ will save you from your transgression and the wrath of God.

There is one small catch, you have to actually put the parachute on for it to be usefull. But then again, you only need the parachute if you're interested in surviving the jump.

Hey, no prob with the spelling. It happens all the time believe it or not. These debates are fun and I enjoy them. It's not often I get to have this kind of discussion ou tin the real world. People are too wrapped up in there own worlds. I'd like to think I have an open mind, and I don't discount any religion, because religion is needed for most people. It helps them through the day and gets them out of bed in the morning. My own shortcomings, however, are my own, and I blaim nobody but myself. I don't rely on a Deity because I don't see the need for one in my life. I like to believe that I can accomplish great things on my own, and I have done so already.

Ok. so you don't like Jacoby's thread. There is a thread in the guest voices about slavery and genocide in the Bible that seems pretty good. But oh well.

And it may just be me, but most of the panelist here don't seem to be getting a lot of responses to their posts. I wonder why that is. Most of them make good arguments, yet I see very little movement towards their threads. But if you'd rather stay here and wax intellectual on this, I am sure I can accomodate. and I am sure Marco Polo and others, might stick around. You never know. It just sucks when only 2 or 3 people are the only ones talking in something like this.

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him:
"I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God."
That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this Man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great moral teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
-C.S. Lewis (Great Atheist turned Great Preacher)

I'll let you in on a little secret, I'm not really after your soul, I've given you up for lost; but by you posting your weak debates I am able to respond for all 'lurkers' to read. Susan Jacoby's thread is full of poison and no-one is going to make it down to my responses in her thread. If I'm not in the top 20 posters now, I don't even bother. A responder is not someone I'm preaching at, I'm responding at those that are here to read with an open-mind, especially those on this thread who believe in evolution and thought they might be interested in being Zoroastrians.

And I appologize for spelling your name wrong, it was not intentional.

Yea..........I wasn't arguing, and I wasn't attacking Christianity. Why take such offense to everything Canyon? I am not gonna strip you of your God, or Jesus for that matter. Keep em both.

Actually, I think Jesus was a good guy. People just got his message wrong. Jesus could teach both of us something right now. Especially when it comes to debating this.

And hey, this thread is dead. Let's go to another thread and pick up there. Maybe we can find more people to get in on this with. Susan Jacoby's thread is always alive and kickin, let's go there. I'll bring the beer. I'll be elsewhere, maybe you'll follow. I know you like a challenge, I can discern that much from talking to you. See you over there.

Again Russel, you have no argument, you simply attack Christianity with weak and always disproved arguments.

Have you ever heard of a representative survey? Survey says, "Darwin's Dead; Jesus Isn't"

I don't hate God. I think God is a good concept, especially for people who can't find strength within themselves. All I am saying, is that after you get so far in life, let go of the shoulder your holding onto and walk by yourself.

And how do you expect to speak for the whole country on evolution? Have you asked us all? I doubt it. Assuming something only does one thing, and I think you know what it is.

As for the Marco Polo character, I don't think he hates God either, but he does make good points. Maybe you should listen instead of telling people what to do. I already told you how I go about things in my earlier post. And I am still waiting on the MGD.

Larry,

Congratulations, you've dove into ignorance. It's ok if you've slipped there, but diving is reproachable.

Every species will bring forth after it's own kind. You don't need 141 species of dogs, you need two dogs. Variation will do the rest.

I suppose you think that people didn't live with dinosaurs despite overwhelming evidence that they did. Not only are there extensive cave paintings of dinosaurs, but hundreds of dinosaur legends, and detailed descriptions in print...to think that men didn't live with dinosaurs is to be willingly ignorant of the facts.

I applaud your blind faith, it's strong and more extremist than most.

Canyon,

Well, what can I say. You actually do believe the ark held two of EVERY species on the planet. The polar bear and the puma. The kangaroo and (since there is no evolution) the many species of dinosaur. And every different species of monkey...etal ad nauseum.

You have just disqualified yourself from any reasoned debate.
Game over. You lose.
Some people would call you delusional. I won't. I'll just call you a misguided believer in the unbelievable.

Larry,

You're showing your infancy in attacking Christianity, you're still in the "It doesn't seem like it could happen, so it must not be true." It's called the "A Priori Fallacy" in some circles.

The Ark is scientifically sound in all testable arena's. I suggest you do a little more reseach on this matter.

God is all knowing, you're appealing to the "theopomorphism fallacy" trying to make God think like you when He's creating something. I'm not sure where you're going with your crazy line of thinking. Explain to me where and why the fainting goat felt the need to evolve?

Why do you believe in evolution? It's a ridiculous religion, everyone else in the United States is paying attention and throwing it out...and you're still hanging onto it.

Russell...you're in the same boat as Marco Polo, you hate God, and therefore you have your eyes squished shut and you've got your back to God. I know God, you don't have to wait 'till you die. Why do you still believe in evolution, you've clearly been around long enough to realize that it's bunk and there is no evidence.

The only thing worse than ignorance is hatred of knowledge.

Canyon:

What would it take for me to believe in GOD?
I know this is what others say, but it would take for me to see and speak to the guy in person if he actually existed. But of course, that won't happen, because I'd have to die in order to meet Him, and I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, or God to begin with. Maybe you shouldn't focus on converting anybody. Maybe you should just talk to them. Being personal with someone rather than talking at them works wonders. I know, I have done it. I still do it. I don't convert anybody. Heck, I don't even bring up religion. It is brought to me and I talk about it. Whether or not the other person agrees with me is their decision. I don't try to get people to follow my cause, because I have no cause, other than to be who I am and live the best way I know how. If this makes me unfit for the Kingdom, so be it, I don't want any piece of it. I am perfectly happy to be where I am at. I'd rather just fill the potential others see in me and leave a lasting impression on the world.

Oh, and evolution isn't a religion. It is not something to worship. It is just a better explanation of how we came to be here than a guy and girl havin sex and having only two sons. Like I said before, too many holes in the story.

At least the Greek stories about creation were more entertaining. Bring back Zeus! and I'll have an MGD by the way.

Canyon,
Talk about hubris. You think you can convert me? Not a chance. But why would you even care to try? I could care less if you believe as I do. My only pitch is to respect the other guy's belief. As long as it does not advocte hate or harm, who cares if you like Vishnu, Buddah, Jehova, Zoroaster, Mohammed, Jesus, et al.

You still haven't answered my question.
When did God (per you the creator of all life now or ever on the planet without mutation!) know he was done?
And don't give me that Genesis "he saw it was good" jive.

Does this mean you believe all animals on earth today were on the ark? You see Canyon, the more you explore the Bible and its contradictions and you apply simple reason, the more it becomes a metaphorical epic tale rather than a literal incontrovertable story of creation and beyond. Surely, you consider yourself reasonable?

Larry,

Way to go, you've failed completely to back up your religion and simply to attack mine.

Diversity is cool, it shows how vast and limitless and incredible God is.

Imagine God only created the Earth and said, "Look at this, I created it, it's neat." I look around and say, "Yeah, it's big, but really? This is all you could do?"

So God created an INFINITE Universe, with ONE PHRASE, the last guess of science is that there are 66,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars, the Bible says there are more than the sand on any of the beaches. That is an impressive and diverse Universe, I look at it and say, "Wow!" But it is small to God, because He measures it with the span of His hand. He is a BIG GOD.

Diversity is your best argument against the Bible?

I can't believe you religion caught on or that anyone couldn't believe in God, it's impossible for me, there is OVERWHELMING evidence, and you must really have your eyes squeezed shut tight in order to say you can't see it.

Evolution is a farse, I think it's the most evil and most damning of all the religions. How can you say with a straight face that you believe in something for which NO evidence exists?

My faith is weak, truly, truly weak, I wish I could have blind-faith, it would be so much easier. But I can't, I have to know the answer to EVERYTHING...it's a curse.

Your faith is infinitely stronger than mine; how you can stand on the ridiculous religion of evolution is beyond me. I had blind-faith in evolution for most of my life; when I finally decided to question it, ALL of it's merits fell away. Evolution has been refuted by science almost since it's inception, and it exists solely as a religion now.

I'm not held to this because of fear or hope of reward, I'm convicted because it's the truth, absolute truth. Once you've known the light, it's impossible to turn it off.

I'd love to grab a beer with you. I can convert just about anyone in thirty minutes, it's so much easier in real-life. You running and searching the atheist biblos is not a bad thing, when you're finally converted it will make your faith all the more strong...but it's soooooooo much easier for me if you can't go to a website filled with lies and mistruths and hatred... I keep coming back to this website because it gives me an opportunity to hear ALL of the arguments against Christianity and it sharpens my two-edged sword of knowledge so that I can instantly refute any in-person argument I get. It's frustrating here, but it is oh-so-powerful in-person, and for that I thank you.

I would accept your religion of evolution if you could give me ANY evidence to support it; which is why I'm different than you, because I've given you hundreds of reasons to believe the Creation account and you don't want to believe it. The funny thing is that I expect that, you're written about in the Bible, you hate the light, you love the darkness, you hold to science falsely so called; you don't want to bow to Righteousness, you want to define your own morality...it's not your fault, it's your fallen human condition, but it is your fault to hang onto it desperately in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Please take a look at your stupid religion of evolution, and when you have a real argument, feel free to post it, until then I expect your hollow atheist cliche's about the children of Adam and Eve...

Think on this for a little while, "What would it take for you to believe in God."

Sorry, anonymous was me.

Canyon,
No evolution? That means all the creatures on earth were "created' as they are. If that's the case, then when, like an artist at a canvas, do you suppose God thought he was finished with creation. Lets take the fish. God says "I want a red one, a speckled one, a mollusk, a starfish. There, I'm done, oops, I forgot a yellow one, etc". Which do you think was the last fish. Weren't there enough when he got to 2000 species?

And how many deer did he need. The white tail, the bobtail, the reindeer, ad nauseum. Not to mention all the insects.

And which color do you think was the last one he chose. God said, "I've got blue, red, yellow, oops I need brown"?.

And why did he need to give us such a complex body. Why a gall bladder. He could have made it much simpler with fewer moving parts to go wrong, don't you think?

After all he's omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, isnt he?

Come on Canyon. I respect your right to disagree, but you can't sit there and deny the evolutionary forces of nature with a straight face, can you?

Seems I hit a nerve with Canyon. Can't say I blaim you though man, I respond the same way when something I believe in is called into question. But in this thread Christianity is not being called into question. Heck, it was never mentioned, yet you still found a way to make an argument for it.

Evolution is not a religion by the way. It is a process being studied by scientists still today. There are people that refuse to accept it, just as there are people that refuse to accept the story of Creation in the Bible.

I find it hard to believe that the world was populated by two people, only having sons, yet people seem to accept it. Just depends on how you look at it I guess. Seems to me that if the Bible was handed down from God, you'd think he would have remembered all the details and wouldn't leave gapin holes in it. Just a thought.

I realize that you are of strong faith Canyon, and it is probably pointless to try and reason with you, but its fun to try. Everytime you come at us with Bible talk and your reasons for something, there are a number of us who disprove it, yet you hold your ground. The disciples would be proud, at least in that regard. But if your biggest transgression was stealing a bag of marbles, then you my friend have not lived a very fruitful and satisfying life. You should get out more and look around. Being held to a certain way of life out of fear that you might burn AFTER you're already dead, is no way to live. Fear is not something to rule you, you rule it. You make it work for you, and you come out a better person for it. Still wanna get a beer?

Larry, I absolutely don't believe in the dying religion of evolution. What a stupid religion! you actually believe in it? I'm amazed to find someone that will admit that in this day and age, bravo for being the stong minority.

You're obviously new to On-Faith, persons like Marco Polo pretend to be able to defend their blind-faith but simply come with insults and long-disproven lies. I've defeated him in debate, he may have thought he was still debating, but his arguments were crushed and he had resorted to personal attacks in lieu of any real evidence.

What's wrong with the world has nothing to do with God; it has EVERYTHING to do with men and transgression. If you believe in evolution, your biggest stumbling block should be the perplexing problem of where death comes from. It is not evolutionary, death is completely inconclusive with progressive evolution. Not to mention that the fossil record completely refutes evolution and that evolution can only be proved using impressive imagination and completely falls short in the science lab.

More importantly, there is a Creation, there is obviously a Creator; you'd be a fool to say, I've never seen or talked to the person that made this keyboard in front of me, therefore it must have come together by accident over trillions of years. The complex DNA strands with absolute purpose prove there was a DNA designer; otherwise we'd have random vestigal fixtures; and we don't have that.

More importantly, Christianity has stood the test of time, produced fruit, and withstands scrutiny. Evolution is dying after less than two centuries, produced genocide and infanticide, and is a fairy-tale that scientists laugh at.

Canyon,
On a more serious note, isn't it ironic that in a thread honoring the origins of Zoastrianism, you feel compelled to discredit its beliefs?

Canyon, what I take you are saying is that you, as a Christian, are hip to the truth and non Christiians are not? Isn't that the ultimate in hubris? "My God is better than your God".
Isn't that what's wrong with the world?

Outside of the beautiful and comforting rituals of religion, I think we'd all be better off as atheists. Then we could concentrate on important differences like skin color and nationality! If there is a God, he must be pretty dissapointed in his creations.
Now, please tell me you don't believe in evolution and that all the animals were on the Ark!!

The wise Lord, Ahura Mazda, who spoke to Zarathustra (Zoroaster) is the same God who revealed Himself in Jesus. Canyon Shearer, the self-righteousness you claim other religions have before the Almighty God is well expressed in your own statements where you belittle His revelations through others whose teachings you do not know or understand. Good thoughts, good words, and good deeds are just as much at the heart of the Gospel as they are in Zoroastrianism. First comes faith, then come the deeds that are an expression of that faith (works are the fruit of faith). At the time of Zoroaster, God revealed Himself through Zoroaster and those who placed their faith in Him were able to engage in those good thoughts, words, and deeds. Zorastrianism knows very well what sin is (so do all the great religions, though you condemn them).

Glad I could make you laugh Larry.

As for our debate Canyon? We never finished it. You left and never came back. But here you are.
And I know that there was a Santa Claus, but there isn't now, no matter what your parents tell you.
So let's start it back up my friend. What you got for me other than repent and find Christ? Gotta come bigger than that if you wanna roll with me. I'll even buy the beer for ya.

Marco, After reading that long and insufferable babble from Canyon, your short accurate rejoinder made me lol!!
Good job.

Marco Polo, good to see you again. Haven't we previously had this conversation? Seems that I recall you lost that debate.

Are you sure Santa Claus isn't real? He was a great Christian that lived in the fourth century...

You're wrong about that, you're wrong about God too.

Hey Canyon, hate to burst your bubble bud, but Christianity is also a man made religion. Oh, and the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and Easter Bunny aren't real either.

Like all man-made religions, Zoroastrianism lacks an accurate view of the human condition. Good words, good thoughts, good deeds; it is the epitome of self-righteousness.

I'm still waiting for the Stuart Smalley Religion, "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and, doggonit, people like me!"

To see if this Zoroastrian religion makes any sense, take a few moments to think of some terrible things you've done, in darkness or in the light, things that you'd be genuinely ashamed of if your mother found out. Now think of some truly great things you've done.

Do the two cancel out? Take it to the court of law, "Judge, I know I'm guilty of murder and rape; but more importantly I help little old ladies cross the street safely, I always leave a 20% tip, and I always swerve when there is an animal in the road; I should be let free because my good deeds far outweigh the bad."

It doesn't work that way, guilt is completely unrelated to charity. A transgression is not going to be wiped away by good words, good thoughts or good deeds. If you could go through life living on good words, good thoughts, and good deeds, then you would have a fair chance of attaining Heaven.

But that one time transgression, be it as small as a malicious lie or as big as cold-blooded murder, is going to completely destroy any semblance of innocence you may have been carrying.

This is where Zoroastrianism can't help you, you're standing before the Judge of the Universe who has in His possession the book of your conscience, which has recorded every foul-deed you have performed and recorded whether you knew that deed was wrong or not; since your conscience is your gauge of right and wrong, you will not be blameless nor be able to plead that you didn't know what you were doing was wrong.

All man-made religions run into this problem, and Zoroastrianism is no exception.

Only the true religion, written by God Himself can atone for your failings. The human condition is towards transgression and wickedness; every once in a while a good deed, thought, or word pops out, but they are the exception rather than the rule. God is perfectly Holy, so those transgressions distance us from Him, and because God is perfectly Just He has promised to punish all transgression. And a transgression against and infinite God requires an infinite retribution, that punishment being death.

Through no workings of our own could we atone for the punishment we have amassed, through our failings are we doomed, no amount of goodness can save us from our just desserts.

But God, in an infinite showing of love and mercy, came to the Earth as the man Jesus Christ and subjected Himself to all of our wickedness and came through it all without blemish and in continuing holiness. Jesus was the only One Good, the only One worthy of Heaven, the only One that could stand before the Judge and be found innocent.

Yet He placed Himself in our stead, took our punishment upon Himself and died in the most painful way anyone could possibly die, by hanging on the cross. Through His atoning death, our fine is paid, the book of our conscience is wiped clean by His sacrifice.

But that's not all, death couldn't hold the God of the Universe, and on the third-day He rose from the dead, defeating death; our most undefeatable enemy has been defeated, and if you'll receive the gift of everlasting life, your soul will never die.

In order to receive this gift, God demands that you repent of your transgressions, and put your full trust in Him to save you; like you'd trust in a parachute to save you from gravity.

This gift is freely given, it is the gift of God, and through grace are you saved by faith, not of works, lest any Zoroastrian should boast.

I apologise to the Parsis if I have got the details of this story wrong. But when I first heard it, I found it so beautiful that I have not forgotten it ever since, although I can't recall when I heard it or from whom.

When the Zoroastrians (known as Parsis in India) fled Persia and came to India, the leader of the group went to the Hindu king and asked for refuge in India. The king called for a cup full of milk and showed it to the leader and said, "Do you see, my country is as full of people as this cup is full of milk. How could I possibly accomodate your group?" (The lines every asylum seeker gets to hear, especially in richer countries! But I cannot attribute the lines to an Indian king, because India has always given refuge to the persecuted, no matter how poor India has been.) The leader of the group requested a spoon full of sugar. And requesting that the cup of milk be handed to him, he proceeded to add the sugar in the milk and stir it. "O King, this is how we intend to live in your country, to live among your people like sugar in the milk."

The Parsis have been as good as their word. They have truly been sweeter than sugar in the Indian society to this day. The Indian government would like them to be "fruitful and multiply" because their numbers are dying out.

http://www.the-south-asian.com/April2001/What%20is%20Zoroastrianism.htm

Zarathustra,nobody knows when he lived.He was the founder of Zoroastrianism,a religion based on Mazdaism,the divine authority of Ahura Mazda(Hormuz)Creator of all believed since 2000 BC.

Ahura Mazda,God,Truth,Light,Good.
Ahriman,Devil,Lie,Darkness,Evil.

There is always struggle between them.

Honest men duty participating this struggle,battle on the Ahura Mazda side.
Not beg or appeal but we must struggle against Devil.
Honest men must work,Ahura Mazda loves diligent peasents.

Who established the course of the Sun and stars.
Who feeds and waters the plants.
What builder created light and darkness.
Through whom does exist dawn and night.

These are completely similar,resembling those in others religious books.