SL said "On top of that you might want to take some empathy workshops and commune with nature to develop some depth and compassion. If you don't understand the principles of vegetarianism/veganism then either give up crawl back under your rock or read some Albert Scheitzer.
People like you - it's shocking that you actually get paid for your mental vomit."

I can see you have communed with nature and acquired empathy, depth and compassion alright...
I thought it was meat that is supposed to induce aggression...

Sure, Mark.

""(me) I think it creeps into discussion of vegetarianism , though, the presumption that 'Right or wrong for *my* relationship with the world' must necessarily mean "This Is Right Or Wrong For Everyone."

"People are used to having to justify themselves like that. I think it's artificial.""

"Yes, it is artificial. I often find myself in the position of being asked why I am not eating meat. Rather than engage in a protracted debate about animal rights or fossil fuel inputs or whatever… when I am hungry… I usually give a flippant response like ‘I am allergic’ or ‘I just don’t like meat.’ And then I chow down."

Well, in my house, you get Vegan spaghetti, no excuses needed. It's when people start insulting *my* character or ways to justify their own that it rankles.

"The other person, expecting some lengthy and passionate diatribe—for purposes of their own amusement or curiosity—is completely disarmed by the response. They go away, which is what I want."

Well, I think a lot of where this gets to be a *debate* really has to do with when Vegans and vegetarians take the real environmental impacts and how healthy they think they're being, as, really, not the factors in a big picture they are, but just more support for notions of "Thou shalt not 'sin' by consuming anything related to animals whatsoever.'

When the spoken *assumption* is that eating animal products *must* come with disrespect, this gets abrasive and disrespectful. People coming into my house, and taking my accomodating their tabooes and preferences, in keeping with hospitality, as if it were permission to label me as 'immoral.'

Yes, the big meat industry is environmentally really irresponsible, (And, I think, insufficiently-respectful to the spirits, in the process, ) but the fact is that whatever we eat, in America, we *eat too much.*

My diet's highly-dependent on animal products, ...it's always been a bit of a struggle to get enough of *anything* in me, either for lack of food, or cause health issues which often make eating enough too much of *work,* :)

(And they say never trust a skinny chef. I say, When you gotta convince yourself to eat at all, some days, you learn some good stuff. :) )

Frankly, it seems that a lot of vegetarian crusaders seem to spend most of their lives *obsessed with food,* especially if they're trying to adapt an unsuitable metabolism to an ideology, and never actually feel *fed.*

Burns a lot of resources to live a modern life spent foraging and chewing, I say. :)

As with many things, perspective. As a society, we can do much better. Sometimes to me it looks to me like our society spends half its energy selling overconsumption and idleness, and the other half selling exercise machines and diet schemes and products.

Elizabeth Tenety, I told you to read the Bible. Where are you getting your ideas that eating meat is a sin?

You are treading on dangerous ground. Someday you would tire from all the fences you build around yourself and who knows what you wil do next?

Eat everything in moderation. Jesus said , there is no sin in eating meats. Either you believe Jesus or believe your foolish self.

SL says:
"People like you - it's shocking that you actually get paid for your mental vomit."

See Ms. Tenety, that is what happens when you eat vegtables (me I can't even spell the word) only.
A superiority complex sets in and only vegetarians can stand one another. No thanks.

PS
If you go to Records try the sliced beef bbq sandwich. Like Heaven on earth. With a Dr. Pepper of course. The national soft drink of Texas!

Listen, darlin' if you are in Dallas drop by Record's Barbecue, an African-American Barbecue place in South Dallas at the intersection of E.Illinois and S. Lancaster. 5 star reviews. Check it out on the internet!

And stay away from Dreher. He will have you eating veggies and tofu all the time you are here. Bad company!
What I am telling you is correct.

Hi, Paganplace

"I think it creeps into discussion of vegetarianism , though, the presumption that 'Right or wrong for *my* relationship with the world' must necessarily mean "This Is Right Or Wrong For Everyone."

"People are used to having to justify themselves like that. I think it's artificial."

Yes, it is artificial. I often find myself in the position of being asked why I am not eating meat. Rather than engage in a protracted debate about animal rights or fossil fuel inputs or whatever… when I am hungry… I usually give a flippant response like ‘I am allergic’ or ‘I just don’t like meat.’ And then I chow down.

The other person, expecting some lengthy and passionate diatribe—for purposes of their own amusement or curiosity—is completely disarmed by the response. They go away, which is what I want.

I could just as easily ask everyone at the buffet why they are piling the meat on their plates. Or I could ask them why they drove to that destination as opposed to using a much less violent form of transportation.

Adherents to an uncompromising moral code or lifestyle freak out regular people. Those regular people see a meal or a transportation choice as a political or moral statement. I have known a lot of sharp-tongued vegans and bicyclists who would like nothing better than for others to see it that way. And, to be quite honest, I hope they do. I wish that all of us would put more thought into the consequences of living the way that we do.

I have been a vegetarian for over 30 years. Although I started out purely for moral reasons -- I believe it is wrong to take the life of a thinking and feeling animal -- it has gradually progressed to a whole panopoly of reasons: moral, ethical, aesthetic, compassionate, health, safety, environmental. Yes, I eat eggs and diary but only if humanely and organically raised (and no, I don’t wear leather shoes). In those 30 years I have never once missed or desired meat, but I continually struggle to perfect my commitment (finding out that meat hides in certain favorite foods, or having to assiduously checking with the chef every time I eat out). This choice I have made is not an easy one in such a meat-centric world. It is also not easy to be surrounded by meat eaters…I cannot understand how they can ignore the absolute and abject cruelty and brutality in how their meat is raised and slaughtered…but I don’t lecture, ever, even when they, quite rudely, push a fork full of meat under my nose. They must choose their own path, and I know I am not going to persuade hundreds of millions to become vegetarian. But I do want meat-eaters to know they can change the world…you have incredible influence in your sheer numbers. By buying only humanely and sustainably raised meat, you can have an enormously positive impact on how our animals are treated. The power of your purse (even if leather) can do away with the wretched horror of the factory farm. Please think of this the next time you shop. It is a small price to pay for a soul.

Hi, Mark.

"Once I escaped the tyranny of my parent's dinner table, I began to ask questions about my food choices. It dawned on me that I was a hypocrite for continuing to eat meat when I could never watch a cow, pig, or chicken being put to death... just to feed me."

I very much respect that, by the way.

Myself, I'm not willing to eat what I wouldn't be willing to kill, myself. That's part of my respect for prey animals and the Gods that govern these things.

I won't eat caged-veal cause I'd never do that. I won't eat dog cause it's Dog. I would shoot wild rabbit and chow down with relish, but having slaughtered domesticated rabbit for dinner, even with all due respect I can't feel right about that, myself, and yes it has much to do with the cute and helpless factor. All due respect to the spirit of Rabbit, but... Bunny!

:)

Plenty of people I know farm and raise rabbits for food and fur, and I respect them and celebrate with them too, just fine.

I think it creeps into discussion of vegetarianism , though, the presumption that 'Right or wrong for *my* relationship with the world' must necessarily mean "This Is Right Or Wrong For Everyone."

People are used to having to justify themselves like that. I think it's artificial.

PepperJade,

Just 'cause you're vegetarian doesn't mean you're a healthy eater. I've known vegetarians who ate some of the lamest pseudo-food imaginable.
I mean, high fructose corn syrup and hydrogenated soybean oil are vegetarian and some of the worst food you can eat. Way worse than locally-raised, humanely-treated animal flesh.
I'll stick to the traditional foods of my ancestors. As Michael Pollan says "Eat Food. Not Too Much. Mostly Plants." See that: "Mostly Plants," not "Anything else that is not meat".

DOES IT MATTER wrote: "The whole endeavor we call culture/civilization is geared toward tempering our natural instincts, making us a more “enlightened” beings, capable of/striving toward controlling/overcoming natural urges/instincts
(abstinence, monogamy, non-violence, charity, sacrifice and so on) so perhaps vegetarianism is one of those endeavors."

That's the best answer I've ever heard! Thanks, D.I.M..

LISABOU wrote: "p.s. I also don't see anywhere in Ellizabeth's article where she used that phrase."

LISABOU - I never attributed this phrase to Elizabeth. If it has been used out of context, or improperly, then I do apologize. It is also mentioned by DOES IT MATTER that the premise of being "made in God's image" is a Judeo-Christian premise. This is true...I suppose I was looking at the situation from Elizabeth's perspective. Not very inclusive, though...duly noted!

Thanks all,
Craig

I am reluctant to even post on this column.

I should start by saying that I am a vegetarian. I became one 10 years ago, and never have I deviated from this lifestyle. I call my diet a lifestyle because I stopped eating meat (and other animal products) for personal reasons. I didn't do it because of a book I read or a grisly movie I watched. No, I just never really liked meat. When I was a kid, I would always think of the animal... as I was slicing into a piece of steak.

Once I escaped the tyranny of my parent's dinner table, I began to ask questions about my food choices. It dawned on me that I was a hypocrite for continuing to eat meat when I could never watch a cow, pig, or chicken being put to death... just to feed me.

Rationality rarely enters into the question of what to eat. If it does, it doesn't stick around for long. Doing the moral and empirical calculation of which is best to eat (the steer you're looking at or the out-of-season mango) is exhausting and unrealistic.

There is a good reason why I rarely meat well-adjusted vegans: it takes passion to maintain that lifestyle choice. Once the anger goes away, people get more realistic with their food choices.

Stop applying a label to what you do and who you are.

The morality of food--an interesting topic.

A lot of the afore-written reminds me of the old scholastic argument about the number of angels that could fit on the head of a pin. It addresses the issue from a "theological" point of view rather than from the viewpoint of "spirituality"--(how I live as a Christian in the world). Christianity is at the same time profound and simple. The two great commandments: Love of God above all things--love of neighbor as ourselves. How does my use of food--a gift of God--affect these two basic relationships. Whether you eat lobster, steak, chicken, or tofu doesn't matter. Do you share? Are you a glutton? Has your stomach become your God? Is there a hungry man at your gate?

Look at the example of Jesus. (WWJD--is not just a pious wrist-band motto.) Remember the loaves and fishes? Do you remember him saying: "I have longed to eat this passover with you?" Do you think they had pasta or tofu on either occasion?
So there seems to be no basis for extolling vegetarianism as an absolute Christian value.

So does vegetarianism have anything to do with Christianity? It can, I think, if we place it in the realm of Christian virtue. Almost any human acitivity can be a path to the Lord. If I refrain from eating meat because of my compassion for animals or because of my regard for my planet, is this not virtuous? Am I not showing concern and love for God and neighbor? Can this not bring me closer to God? I think so. Can I espouse it as a lifestyle for all to live by? Not really! Every day there are those who tell you that if you don't do spirituality my way, you're doing it wrong. The fact is that there as many spiritualities as there are people. There's nothing wrong with me trying to share my spirituality with you--there is something wrong with my trying to foist it upon you.

One last point. Do I have to be "virtuous" all the time. Nope. Should I try to be "good" all the time? Yep. So if I espouse a vegetarian life-style because I believe it is virtuous, is it a sin to eat that double-R bar burger that's calling my name? Nope! I'm not offending God or my neighbor. Am I being true to myself? Am I being authentic? No. But the law I have broken is a law of my own making. If I'm doing anything "sinful" it has more to do with presently myself honestly, than with any dietary violation.

To sum up what I have said in more "theological" terms: You can't separate morality from life and spirituality. This is not merely espousing "situation ethics." But you can't talk about ethical action without setting it in the context of the human situation of trying to live spiritually in the world.

I think with vegetarianism and Veganism, there are a lot of separate issues and motivations that can become part of the 'isms,' all, maybe, mixed up in people being a bit different trying to claim they're doing the 'right' thing.

Some will say it's wrong to kill animals, (Unless of course it's in the course of a mechanized grain or soybean harvest: that kills countless small animals, too.)

People getting moralistic about it often end up condemning, indirectly, entire cultures that live in places where domesticated animals and a bit of hunting *are* survival.

If health and sustainability are the objectives in a society where we eat too much meat (Too much everything, really,) ...then *exercise responsibility and moderation,* don't condemn the mere act of cooking chicken soup.

In my religious path, we respect and revere our food, whether it has eyes and fur or stalks and leaves or whatever.

You're onto something about it maybe not being a function of 'Good vs Evil, Always Right Or Wrong And Forbidden.'

That's not the point, I think. It's about respect and responsibility. Even if you're eating at Hardee's.

Damn. Some people woke up on the wrong side of the bed, didn't they?

Nice piece, Elizabeth.

Stick with it, even with the tempations of the flesh, so to speak. It is healthier. But my experience was that it was easier to stick if I gave myself the freedom to cheat, until I was genuinely ready to commit. And I've stuck with it longer than most of my friends who have gone vegetarian.

We all give into tempation, Elizabeth. Some people are just more honest than others. Thanks.

You might wish to be, but you're not a vegetarian if you eat meat or fish -I think that's pretty basic, even a 2nd grader could get that. If you don't see that then you are obviously high or just a superficial skimmer of life. Vegetarianism isn't a fashion trend or a fad to look cool - it's part of a person's ethics and beliefs. You present a stupid argument - 'is it better to eat a mango flown in from thailand than a cow next door..."
Are you saying you don't know the difference between a sentient being - a cow
and a fruit - a mango? If you're so worried about carbon eat a locally grown vegetable or fruit. Are you seriously that thick?
Your reason for calling yourself a vegetarian is cause animals are too CUTE to eat? Are you kidding?
Grow up. Why don't you check Farm Animal Sanctuary, PETA and the ASPCA to find out about
horrors of the meat industry and the suffering of these living creatures. On top of that you might want to take some empathy workshops and commune with nature to develop some depth and compassion.
If you don't understand the principles of vegetarianism/veganism then either give up crawl back under your rock or read some Albert Scheitzer.

People like you - it's shocking that you actually get paid for your mental vomit.

Rao Tayi & co.

You are very disconnected from compassions and your own emotions.

Close your eyes. In your imagination, pull up a weed and then kill an animal that is looking up at you and resisting its own death. Can you distinguish between the two acts -- or are you too far gone in your rationalizations for that?

Cruelty is cruelty, whatever the justifications.

Read "Diet for America," or some of the other references listed here.

Whether or not it's "delicious," as Tenety says, is really beside the point. It's based on the torture of a sentient being that wishes to live, just like you do.

And yes, I'm Catholic, too.

I was vegetarian (no meat, chicken or fish stuff) for over a year. But it was so bad because I ended up eating a lot of carbs and thus gained weight. I think one has to be vegetarian from day one.... just like certain cultures so your pallette is used to it and also you're accustomed to non-meaty dishes. Otherwise, it doesn't work. If our palettes are used to certain (and healthy) meaty dishes, we will eventually fall off the wagon and crave for them, just like it happened to me. Also another factor is that meaty food has lots of protein and it balances off well along with veggies. Just eating veggies alone may not provide full nutrition.

You don't suppose using drugs is a burden to the nation's health care system?

Rao Tayi
Dude... what an argument!
bowl of rice =10,000 deaths
I want to compose a lucid response.. but all i can think of is
dude! Yo Dude! Dude!

It's not vegetarians lining up for angioplasty and bypass surgery, and "Supersize Me" did not chronicle the month-long 25-pound weight gain for a guy eating a vegetarian diet. Red meat stays in your digestive for years. It elevates risk of colon cancer. Keep on eating that fatty bacon and greasy cheeseburger; you meat-eating fatties are overwhelming our health care system. I don't want to hear one more word about socialized medicine until I hear that there will be an incentive to address the obesity epidemic in this country that is jacking up healthcare costs for all of us. I don't want to subsidize someone's poor health choices whether it's smoking or Big Macs.

Vegetables aren't food; vegetables are what food eats.

Craig -

Your moral justification argument is a strawman. The human body needs protein, but the human mind allows us to find other sources of protein than meat - if we so choose. Unlike some other species, such as cats, we are not obligated to consume or digest animal proteins for good health.

Elizabeth -

You suggest that sinning doesn't mean you're not Catholic, so eating meat might not mean you're not a vegetarian. By that logic, it seems to me that having sex occasionally wouldn't mean that someone isn't a virgin. I'm not trying to capsize your argument. I just wonder if it might not be easier if you don't try to apply a label to your behavior. Eat what feels right to you intellectually and spiritually and just do the best you can to live up to your own morality.

Joining a named group doesn't really entitle anyone to a share of the ethics that group aspires to. Ethics are still a matter of individual choices, not professed group mores.

As an atheist and a vegetarian what matters to me is that I'm satisfied with the choices I make and the behavior I engage in - not the structure or the approval of either of those groups.

It is a given fact that each species has to live off of another species. Given that I am of the view that in the process of living off of other species, it is most moral that we cause harm to the fewest instances of the other species. That being said and accepted, it follows that it is more moral not to be a vegetarian or a vegan. Take for instance you like to eat a bowl of rice, one is compelled to kill say about 10,000 rice grass plants to get sufficient rice kernels to make a bowl of rice. On the other hand if I eat a 12Oz steak, I kill one cow and after that there is still plenty left feed another few hundred folks from the left overs. SO we take one life of another species and feed a few hundred, unlike in a vegetarian scenario.

Vegetarian eating meat is not the same as a Christian who sins. Here's why:

Christianity is the belief in something. You can believe in one thing and do another. For example, you can believe that murder is wrong, and yet kill someone who breaks into your home. Killing an intruder does not change what you believe, which is the still the commandment to not kill. Abiding by all the commandments does not make someone Christian. The underlying belief in certain tenets of faith is still required.

Vegetarianism is the commitement to DO something. It may, or may not, involve a belief. For example, some people are vegetarian for health reasons, or because they don't like the taste. There is no philosophy involved in those cases. The act of eating meat stops one from being vegetarian. Someone who eats meat but believes in the concept of refraining from meat would be something else - pro-vegetarian maybe - defined as supportive of the beliefs of the vegetarians.

Look at a few films or videos of factory farm meat production before you make up your own mind. Or still photos. Resist the overwhelming urge to turn away and remain ignorant. Look at PETA's website, or HSUS, or the Humane Farming Association (HFA).

Then decide.

FOR CRAIG, ET. AL.

I often see the comment about "made in God's image" here, used as fodder for any number of pro/con arguments concerning faith.

I am a Catholic, and it is my understanding that the phrase "made in God's image" doesn't relate to our physical selves, but rather our spiritual selves.

So whether you decide to stick to being an omnivore or decide to become a vegetarian, these are really personal choices. While they may possibly be "spiritually inspired", they really don't have any relationship to being "made in God's image."

p.s. I also don't see anywhere in Ellizabeth's article where she used that phrase

Craig
Here are my 2 cents

"I don't, however, understand how to morally justify not eating meat from a physiological standpoint. The human body is designed (or created) to consume and digest meat, vegetables, fruit, and a whole whack of other things. We are natural omnivores."

The whole endeavor we call culture/civilization is geared toward tempering our natural instincts, making us a more “enlightened” beings, capable of/striving toward controlling/overcoming natural urges/instincts
(abstinence, monogamy, non-violence, charity, sacrifice and so on) so perhaps vegetarianism is one of those endeavors

“We are also made in God's image. Here's where the disconnect starts to show for me - if we are made in God's image, and we are omnivorous, then is being vegetarian a sin?”

That is a very loaded statement.. Firstly, “Gods image” is a Judeo Christian premise. Even for the sake of argument, lets assume that premise; but then Christian theologians have spent reams and reams in trying to explain why we can still sin!

If you are an omnivore, more power (& yummy eating) to you! But the “industrial meat” that we consume in America; frankly it is disgusting. What we do to the animals; what sort of quality of life they get to live; the processing of the meat product itself….. That’s got to improve!

Question to any religious vegetarians out there -

Vegetarianism is certainly less violent and is less fossil-fuel dependent than meat-eating. I can easily see the case for vegetarianism from a moral standpoint using these arguments.

I don't, however, understand how to morally justify not eating meat from a physiological standpoint. The human body is designed (or created) to consume and digest meat, vegetables, fruit, and a whole whack of other things. We are natural omnivores.

We are also made in God's image. Here's where the disconnect starts to show for me - if we are made in God's image, and we are omnivorous, then is being vegetarian a sin?

Completely academic argument for me (as I'm atheist and omnivorous), but interesting, I think.