This makes me weep:

Christian Catholic Becoming Muslim فتاة أمريكية تنطق الشهادة her name is Liz, became Muslim on February, 1st, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOsXV85_hLI

I do get tired of every mention of Islam turning into the same repetitions of the same arguments for or against... I think the substance of this article is about the fact one can make non-aggressive contact with people of different beliefs without losing one's own religion. (or, presumably, one's atheism. :) )

Friends of Cyber-Space on HiLLARY For PREZ 2009:

Vote:
A*C*T*i*O*N!

Vote:
E*X*P*E*R*i*E*N*C*E!

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Better a HILLARY than BORACK!!!!!
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STOP THE WAR STOP THE WAR!!
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Better a CLINTON than OBAMA!!!!!!!
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PEACE, PAZ, SALAAM, SHOLOM:........_________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton vote APOCALYPTIC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton ACTION/EXPERiENCE:

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iMAGINE: Adding an additional 10 or 12 STATES to our current 50 STATES!

Yes, ALL of MEXiCO & CUBA!

Also iMAGiNE:

101 U.S.A. STATES all-the-way to PANAMA, where ironically John McCain was Born!??

iMAGiNiNE: No more reliance on Middle-East. Good Riddence OPEC. And more Prophetic Good-Tidings!

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Note: It is not a 'pipe-dream', IT is achievable. Ya Ya YO!

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VOTE: AMEND the Dynamic "American MONROE-DOCTRiNE" not Religion!

Good Bye Middle East Oil!

Good Bye KABBA in Saudi Mecca!

Good bye 'AL AQSA Dome' in Jerusalem!

Good by Israel!

Good bye Afghnisatanstan!

Good bye Pakisatanstans! et al!

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Since ALL 'Non-Islamic' (KAFFiRs, iNFidels) in SAUDI & in another 25 Isamic Nations are considered 2nd/3rd class Citizenz & 'Forbidden' to worship in fear of islamic KORANOHOLiCS attacks THEN;

VOTE: iLLEGAiZE 'ISLAM' & their Wahabee financed MOSQUES in ALL of the AMERICA's now!

VOTE: ECLATi-ON PARTY 2012!

VOTE: APOCALYPTiC NATiON!

thank you for that link INFO4U

mr mahfouz- how do you account for the fact that baby girls were buried alive in pre-islamic arabia?
this was the norm, and forbidden in the qur'an-

halozcel- ismailis are accepted and recognized by the 500 scholars at jordan 3 years ago in the amman message-

you are misinformed-

i found these 2 statements reflect my own understanding.

"Thus the concept of justice greatly varies in a democratic era from that of feudal one.

However, the Qur’an also did not intend to eternalise the then acceptable notion of justice. The dynamics of ‘is’ and ‘ought’ or interaction between history and eternity informs the whole spirit of Qur’an."

im now an adult, but i still cry when i watch bambi.
desensitization is not an indication of maturity.

Whoever has cut and posted this article has done it with good intention. Dr Asgar Ali has tried to given modern interpretation to Quran.There is no division among muslims as per as quranic verses are concerned,they differ only in the interpretations.

Asghar Ali Engineer,Ismaili.

Dear Asghar,

Ismailism is not considered as islam by the mainstream muslims,so is it rational,for you,to speak in the name of islam ??

Your forefather had run away from Pakistan to Haydarabad/India.They had escaped from islam violence and fanaticism indeed,but you try to advocate islam.Is it logical ?

Dear Asghar,

You are writing Palaver.You are telling about the tales and Utopia.
Justice in islam means only and only Shariah Law,nothing else.Islam never accepts the *contemporary justice and rules*
Compassion in islam is only and only for *true believer muslim*,not an ismaili or non-muslims.Allah hates and curses non,muslims.
*to earn* means,in 4.32 verse,to be good muslim.This verse never means *man-woman equality*

Ms. Tenety,
"I had not thought about it like that before". Beautiful.
Because the world is all about perspective, how we perceive and how we put our framework to work.
I like how you ended it,
"...then there is no hurt, but only more truth."

May you be guided towards the truth your soul aspire to-

H.

Anonymous:

You claim in your longwinded thesis that Islam improved on the status of Pre-Islamic women. Let us examine how!

The Prophet of Islam, Mohammed (570-632AD), married his first wife, Khadija (555-620A D), in Mecca , Hejaz, during this Pre-Islamic period. She lived all of her 65 years in the "Age of Ignorance". Let us compare her status to that of present day (2008) women of her hometown, Mecca, to gauge the extent Islam had “elevated” the social standing of women over the past fourteen hundred years.

Khadija bint Khuwailed was a wealthy literate woman who owned a huge commercial enterprise as well as a fleet of more than 500 camels to transport her wares. She hired Mohammad to travel with her caravans to Yemen and Syria as manager of her trading business. She divorced two husbands and never was in a polygamous relationship. She proposed marriage to Mohammad when she was 40 and he was 25. He never took another wife while married to her and their marriage lasted 25 years, ending with her death. She never veiled her face and traveled freely.

How many women in Mecca today can read and write and own their own businesses? How many women in Mecca today have a say about their prospective husbands let alone propose to them or divorce them? How many women in Mecca today are living in a monogamous marriages or married to a younger man? How many Meccan women show their faces or travel alone? How then did Islam elevate women? Is it by institutionalizing polygamy and the culture of concubines? Mohammad’s mother and grandmothers, all of whom lived in the pre-Islamic era, did not share their husbands with other wives, yet he had 11 wives and unknown number of concubines at the time of his death. Is this the way Islam and its founder elevated women? Or by ruling that women inherit half their brother’s share and their testimony, when accepted, counts as equivalent to only half that of a man? Or maybe by making it “Halal” or lawful for men to lie to their wives and beat them? Is it by giving the man the right to divorce simply by uttering the sentence “I divorce you” three times, or by institutionalizing the practice of female genital mutilation they call “Khatan ”? How is that elevating to women? How does any of those above mentioned practices that were institutionalized and spread by Islam to include over a billion people today could have improved upon the status and welfare of a pre-Islamic woman such as Khadija?

The Arabian Peninsula had many powerful and influential women during the “Age of Ignorance”. The famous Queen Balqees or Queen of Sheba ruled a thriving and prosperous Sheba (Yemen), just south of Hejaz, three thousand years ago . Sujaj, Um Qirfa, Um Zumol were chieftains of their Hejaz tribes. Afra and Zabra were High Priestesses, a position comparable to a Prime Minister. All the above lived before Islam. Al Khansaa was a popular prime poetess in Mecca during Mohammad’s time. How many notable or influential Muslim women from Hejaz or the whole Arabian Peninsula have you heard of? The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, which includes Hejaz as a province, had only very recently allowed girls into schools. Women there are not allowed to vote, drive a car or even walk outside their enclosed courtyards unless covered completely from top to bottom with black shrouds called Niqab and escorted by either the father, a brother, a son or husband.

The ANON post above was written by:

Asghar Ali Engineer- a Muslim engineer. He is known for his work on liberation theology in Islam and is the leader of the Progressive Dawoodi Bohra movement.

The above post was cut from:

ISLAM, WOMEN AND GENDER JUSTICE

"It is generally thought that Islam treats women unfairly and gender justice is not possible within Islamic law known as the Shari‘ah law. This assertion is partly true and partly untrue. True as far as the existing Shari'ah laws are concerned. Untrue, as the existing laws were codified during 2nd and 3rd centuries of Islam when general perspective of women’s rights was very different from today’s perspective. The Qur’anic verses which are quite fundamental to the Islamic law, were interpreted so as to be in conformity with the views about gender rights prevailing then.

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_151_200/islam_women_and_gender_justice.htm

The most fundamental values in Islam, as expounded by the Qur’an are justice, benevolence and compassion. The Qur’anic terminology for these values is ‘adl, ihsan and rahmah. The Qur’an talks of these values in imperative category. The Qur’anic verse 16:90 testifies to this: And surely Allah enjoins justice and benevolence (to others). Thus it will be seen that justice is very central to the Islamic value system - as central as love to the Christian ethics. No legislation in Islam which ignores this value can be valid.

It is this concern for justice which makes the Qur’an show deep concern for the weaker sections of society. Thus the verse 28:5 expresses this concern for them and says: “And We desire to bestow a favour upon those who were deemed weak in the land, and to make them the leaders, and to make them the heirs.” The Qur’an desires to bestow the mantle of leadership of this earth upon the weak. The Islamic jurisprudence has to imbibe this spirit towards the weaker sections of society. And, women certainly belong to this category as far as the patriarchal society is concerned.

It is important to note that the values like justice and compassion cannot be applied independent of the age. In the medieval period the understanding of the concept of justice was very different from what it is today. Our era is a democratic era and justice in our era cannot be deemed to have been done if equality of all humans irrespective of sex, race and creed, is not ensured. Discrimination between one and other human being on any ground, including the sexual one, will be taken as injustice. But in medieval ages these discriminations were thought to be quite natural and non-violative of the concept of justice. Even slavery was thought to be natural and in keeping with the principles of justice. In fact if a slave ran away from the master it was thought to be an unjust act. Today, let alone slavery, even bonded labour or child labour is considered as grossly violative of justice. Thus the concept of justice greatly varies in a democratic era from that of feudal one. And yet justice as a value remains important in both the ages. The expression of the concept of justice in a particular era is not fundamental but justice per se is. However, in religious traditions, including in those of Islam, give more importance to the expression of justice in a particular age then to the notion of justice itself. It is because of this that the expression of justice in the hadith literature is more important than the notion of justice as fundamental value in the Qur’an. What was thought to be just during the classical period of Islam is thought to be just even today. And not only that the orthodox think the expression of the notion of justice today is violative of divine will. It is this attitude which impedes change in Islamic legislation so as to accord women equality with men.

However, one finds in the Qur’an full support for sexual equality in several verses. The Qur’an was certainly mindful of what was just in that era when it was revealed and what ought to be just in the transcendental sense. When the Prophet permitted a Muslim wife retaliation against her husband as a measure of justice, the Qur’an overruled him and permitted a measure of conditional male domination, though conditionality of justice was stipulated (see the verse 4:34). It would have been thought to be unjust if the Qur’an had permitted wife to retaliate against her husband and it would not have found acceptability in that society.

However, the Qur’an also did not intend to eternalise the then acceptable notion of justice. The dynamics of ‘is’ and ‘ought’ or interaction between history and eternity informs the whole spirit of Qur’an. Unfortunately the orthodox miss this very spirit while reading the Qur’an form their own perspective. The verse 33:35 is much more fundamental in this respect as it clearly accords women equality with men in all respects. While 4:34 is informed by the spirit of that era, the verse 33:34 deals with the eternal dimension. The orthodox, however, do not wish to go beyond the divine injunction expressed in 4:34. They have frozen their minds in the classical age of Islam. What was temporal has become permanent for them and what is permanent is just brushed aside as of no consequence.

The Qur’an must be re-read and re-interpreted in today’s context as the classical jurists read and interpreted it in their own context. No reformation is possible without such re-reading and re-interpreting the Qur’anic verses. The real intention of the Qur’an - that of sexual equality - comes through several verses. Those verses need to be re-emphasised. The verse 2:228 (“And women have rights similar to those against them in a just manner”) is quite definitive in this respect. It hardly needs any comment. Maulana Muhammad Ali, a noted Pakistani commentator says commenting on the above verse, “The rights of women against their husbands are here stated to be similar to those which the husbands have against their wives. The statement must, no doubt, have caused a stir in a society which never recognised any rights for the woman. The change in this respect was really was a revolutionising one, for the Arabs hitherto regarded women as mere chattels. Women were given a position equal in all respects to that of men, for they were declared to have rights similar to those which were exercised against them. This declaration brought about a revolution not only in Arabia but in the whole world, for the equality of rights of women with those of men was never previously recognized by any nation or any reformer. The woman could no longer be discarded at the will of her `lord’, but she could either claim equality as a wife or demand a divorce.” (Maulana Muhammad Ali, 1973,Pp-97).

However, much of this spirit of justice and equality was lost when the Islamic doctors legislated under the influence of their own social ethos. The Qur’anic categorical imperatives were ignored, as pointed out before, in favour of those verses which were of the nature of concession to the age. There are many instances of this. The polygamy, for example. Firstly, it was a permissive measure in some circumstances (large number of war widows and orphans to be taken care of as many men perished fighting in the battle of Uhud) with great emphasis on justice to all the wives (their number not exceeding four). It was great advance over the pre-Islamic practice of marrying unlimited number and without any obligation towards the wives.

Secondly, the verse on polygamy (4:3) is followed by the verse 4:1 which emphasises sexual equality in the words that ...”Lord Who created you from a single being (min nafsin wahidatin) and created its mate of the same (kind) and spread from these two many men and women...” and the verse 4:2 which talks of justice for orphans and widows. Then polygamy is permitted provided one marries with widows and orphans (and not any women) and there also justice with all wives is a must failing which one must marry only one. No one before had insisted on such conditionalities for plurality of wives. Thirdly, the verse 4:129 states that even if you desire you cannot do justice between wives and ends by saying that do not leave the one with total disinclination and incline towards the other leaving the first in suspense. If the verses 4:3 and 4:129 are read together polygamy is as good as not permissible. But the jurists, in order to avoid implications of reading the two verses together invented various explanations and took resort of hadith to keep possibility of polygamy open. And, much worse, in practising it, conditionality for justice was hardly enforced. In today’s conditions polygamy should be done away with in order to implement the Qur’anic conditionality. Abolition of polygamy will serve the end of justice far better than its practice today. The arguments that men are more sexual or that in case there are more women than men, it will be better to permit polygamous marriages to avoid immoral relations etc. are all attempts at human rationalisation than divine intention. These arguments do not hold much water as there may be excess of women over men in one country and excess of men over women in another. And prostitution and immoral sex thrived even when men could marry any number of wives and also keep slave girls without limit.

Also, normatively speaking the Qur’an has conceded all rights to women which were available earlier only to men. She could exercise her right to divorce her husband as men could divorce her at will. The Prophet permitted a woman called Jamila to divorce her husband - against his will and without consultingg him - just because she did not approve of his looks. While the verse 2:229 permits her to liberate herself from an unsatisfactory marriage by suitable compensation to husband (i.e. returning the dower amount) the verse 4:35 gives her right to appoint an arbiter of her own to settle the marital dispute or agree to divorce. Also, the Qur’an requires of men to keep their wives in goodly manner and to leave them, if necessary, in a benevolent manner. And the verse 4:19 lays down that women could not be inherited or taken as wives against their will. men are also exhorted in this verse not to take a portion of what they have given to their wives and to treat them kindly. It was also emphasised in 9:71 that believing men and believing women are each others friends and they (both men and women) enjoin good and forbid evil. Thus both enjoy equal obligations and from this verse jurists like Abu Hanifa have concluded that a woman can become Qadi i.e.judge as it is her obligation also to enjoin good and forbid evil.

It is argued from the verse 4:11 that a daughter inherits half that of son and hence man is superior. Some modernists also argue on the basis of this verse that it is injustice to a daughter as she has been given half that of son and hence it is bias against female sex. It is simply not true. From one perspective one can say it was a cautious reform in favour of daughters. In pre-Islamic society daughters did not inherit at all and now they were given right to inherit half that of son. From another perspective it could be argued that it was not bias against daughter that they were given half that of son but daughters were duly compensated by mehr (dower amount at the time of marriage) whereas sons had to loose out by paying dower to their wives. And the wives do not have to spend anything by way of maintenance as it is enjoined upon the husbands to maintain their wives. Also, a woman inherited as wife and mother too. Moreover she did not contribute to family wealth in those days by way of earning but now she does and her portion could be increased in view of the changed conditions. Thus the Qur’an has done no injustice to her in matters of inheritance also.

Another question is of hijab (veil). There is no injunction in the Qur’an that she veil her face. The verse 24:31 only lays down that women should not display their adornment and fineries publicly and that they should cover their breasts (tribal women in those days used to leave their breasts uncovered) and that they should not strike heir feet with anklets in public so as to draw attention to their adornments. In this verse both men and women have been asked to lower their gaze (4:30-31) and to restrain their sexual passions. As for what constitutes adornment and what should be displayed and what should be not, there are sharp differences of opinion. These differences are human and every commentator has his views. But Tabari, the noted classical commentator has summarised the views of many eminent jurists in his Jami‘ al-Bayan. According to him adornment means 1) adornment of dress or the clothes that a woman wears; in other words, she is not required to cover the clothes she wears; 2) it means the adornment which the woman is not required to cover, such as collyrium, rings, bracelets and her face; 3) the exception (illa ma zahara minha) relates to a woman’s clothing and her face.

These were opinions of the theologians of those days. Today the sensibilities in this respect are very different and the scope of the exception can be made much wider subject to - and that is real intention behind it - to restrain sexual passion and protect ones chastity. To prevent extra-marital sex is the responsibility of both men and women and not of women alone, as per the Qur’an. Also, both should avoid wearing sexually stimulating dress. They should wear dignified dress. Covering of face by women is not required in the Qur’an at all. It was cultural practice of some post-Islamic societies. The Qur’an also does not require women to be confined to homes. On the contrary they could earn and what they earned was theirs alone as per 4:32 (And for women is the benefit of what they earn). The cultural practices like confining women to home were sought to be legitimised later by inventing suitable ahadith or by far fetched interpretations of the Qur’an.

In conclusion it should be said that if one goes by those verses of the Qur’an which belong to the normative category or which are of the nature of laying down principles and givers of value, men and women should enjoy equal rights in every respect. It would be necessary to re-read and re-interpret many verses which were used for centuries to subjugate women in Muslim societies. This subjugation was more cultural and patriarchal than Islamic or Qur’anic. The whole corpus juris of Islam relating to women needs to be seriously re-thought on the basis of Qur’an.

Beauty in Islam? I wept at Bambi when I was a child too.

Anyone can pick out "nice parts" of any religious text back down through the ages. Unfortunately there aren't many religions that keep their tenets that tight... Islam is largely neanderthalic. Our good friends in Saudi Arabia are about to kill a witch, for example. THAT brings tears to my eyes.

I personally consider proponents of Islam to be mentally ill.

Ms. Tenety
I am curious as to what in the Quran made you cry. Could it be any of the following?
A woman convicted of lewd behavior, as evidenced by four (4) male witnesses (Quran 24:13), is to be put under house arrest for the rest of her life (Quran 4:15)while her male counterpart, needs only ask Allah for forgiveness (Quran4:16).
Or maybe (Quran 2;223)
"Your wives are
As a tilth unto you;
So approach your tilth
When or how ye will"
Or maybe a women's testimony, when accepted, counts as half that of a man (Quran 2:82) or her inheritance half that of her brother's (Quran 4:11). Or maybe the command that women cannot travel except in the company of a male relative. Or maybe stoning of women for the perception of adultery? Maybe it is the command for women to share their husbands with three other women and infinite number of concubines (Quran 4:3). I am simply curious.

TO ELIZABETH TENETY:

You wrote, "Terrified that I would lose my religion but curious enough to try, I enrolled in the course.", some times we need to lose our religion to find or refind our Faith.

I cherish my Catholic Faith but I have found that sometimes not just religion but also spirituality can get in the way.

It is about a relationship, people can get so caught up in the rules and regulations, the smells and bells, the do's and don'ts, even the bible that God gets lost in the shuffle.

As I have said before I have met God and He is not only a Trinity but is a Being of Pure Love.

We are all made in God's Image [Love] and if we love or at least try to love then God's Image is shining thru, if not then it is obstructed.

People can have all the right dogma, all the right theology, even all the right outer moves for the wrong reasons but that doesn't mean they are letting God shine thru whereas they can have none of the aforementioned and God can be shining thru quite well.

Also God has a Plan and God's Plan is for all of humanity to be with Him in the Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth, as we were told the present one will pass away.

Take care, be ready, night is coming, the night of the sixth day but the dawning of the seventh day will surely arrive also in God's Time.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.