Not collecting stamps isn't a hobby Old Greg.

Elizabeth,

I don't know about anybody else, but I would like an update on your posting from October 17, 2007 "Love at First Insight". How are things progressing with your spiritual adviser?

This is unfortunate.

I responded to TJ with an attack on Atheist beliefs. Attacking the assertion that it is not possible to assert that Christianity is a crutch or make belief without also grouping yourself and your own beliefs into this category. If you do not do this then you have a problem philosophically. Meaning, what basis do you have to make your claims moral or philosophical? It is either:

1. Says I
2. Says us or
3. Says God.

I am not saying it has to be Christianity. But in order to have an absolute basis for your claims you must have an infinite reference point. Again it’s like saying “these are no absolutes”, this is self refuting because “there is no absolutes” is an absolute statement. You must refute the beliefs and statement. It gets you nowhere to attack the person who you do not know. The assertion I made is valid because I asserted a correct belief about Atheism. If I misunderstood Atheism please show me how. What do I not understand about the Atheist person? Just for starters: Is he or she not the materialist who believes that we came from a series of random processes; who believes that God is the result of a psychological projection or wishful thinking? And even some who think that religious person’s in authority use religion to suppress the masses? Again, if that is true of the atheist. My argument above states that it is not possible to assert these things without applying them to yourself.

This is unfortunate.

I responded to TJ with an attack on Atheist beliefs. Attacking the assertion that it is not possible to assert that Christianity is a crutch or make belief without also grouping yourself and your own beliefs into this category. If you do not do this then you have a problem philosophically. Meaning, what basis do you have to make your claims moral or philosophical? It is either:

1. Says I
2. Says us or
3. Says God.

I am not saying it has to be Christianity. But in order to have an absolute basis for your claims you must have an infinite reference point. Again it’s like saying “these are no absolutes”, this is self refuting because “there is no absolutes” is an absolute statement. You must refute the beliefs and statement. It gets you nowhere to attack the person who you do not know. The assertion I made is valid because I asserted a correct belief about Atheism. If I misunderstood Atheism please show me how. What do I not understand about the Atheist person? Just for starters: Is he or she not the materialist who believes that we came from a series of random processes; who believes that God is the result of a psychological projection or wishful thinking? And even some who think that religious person’s in authority use religion to suppress the masses? Again, if that is true of the atheist. My argument above states that it is not possible to assert these things without applying them to yourself.

Elizabeth,
You seem to be taking a beating on this blog. Let me apologize for these fools. It is easy for them to take a glimpse at your life and your education and extract some sort of over-privileged upbringing and give you no credit for getting where you are. Shame on them for attacking you and shame on them for being so ignorant. You are allowed to go through your own journey without being attacked as ignorant and foolish. You are an educated young woman, allow yourself to be. Don't stop.
Thank you for sharing yourself so fully.
best wishes.

I was once a Christian, but then some atheist websites showed me how to remove my faith-colored glasses and see how much of the Bible is deceitful, mistaken, self-contrary and often just plain hateful. The real world is fascinating and complex, with over a billion years of history behind it and marvellous creatures such as Anomalocaris, Dimetrodon, Parasaurolophus and Andrewsarchus having been around in the eras and periods before our kind arose from among Koko's brethren. The Biblical world is childish and simplistic, insisting we were molded from mud by a vindictive, tantrum-throwing deity who repeatedly "saves" less than 10% of the populace from massacres he deliberately orchestrates, than gets the masochistic idea that he has to kill himself to "save" us from his own "eternal punishment" threat. He can't even communicate his message clearly, so people kill each other in the Crusades and the Inquisitions to decide who interepreted the message correctly. But God is nonexistent. If God existed just as George W. Bush or Lindsay Lohan exists, we would not have this debate, and neither I nor anyone else would be atheists. The problem would be solved.

Santa Claus and Jesus are harmless fantasies which do not cancel each other out. Someone here wisely compared there separate spheres to Jesus' own "Give unto Caesar" speech. I myself repeat what Sarah Silverman said of Santa: "What has Jesus got to do with you? You've got as much to do with Jesus as you do with Scooby Doo."

Yes Virginia (Elizabeth), there is a Santa Claus. We are all Santa Claus. Santa Claus is a metaphor of the better qualities that any of us can choose to display to our kindred. Jesus is a similar figure to Santa Claus, but he is much more problematic--whereas Santa (in his vilest incarnations) simply withholds presents from unbelievers, Jesus says anyone who overlooks his "love" will be cast into eternal hell! It is time to retire Jesus from his pedestal in our lives, and reassign him as a literary figure to be studied nostalgically but not worshipped, along with Osiris, Jupiter and Thor. We are better than Jesus, and we can be gods. Once we give up magical two-faced saviors and become true respecters of persons (which Jesus admitted he was not), we can put aside our imagined differences, abandon the fairy tale of the Kingdom of Heaven, and, says Philip Pullman, work together to build the Republic of Heaven here on Earth.

kris

atheists frequent many of the religious postings on this blog for the same reason people study mythology and folklore. it's a fascinating window into the evolution of human behavior and belief.
people dedicate their lives to stories that they would never believe literally because of their anthropological and historical significance.
just because you don't believe in god doesn't mean that you can't find others belief in the concept fascinating.

I am going the opposite tack and removing Christ from my Xmas. Winter celebrations predate Christ by many many thousands of years, and the prevalence of things like Xmas trees, yule logs, chestnuts roasting, etc, are winter festival traditions. Similarly bunnies, pastel colors, flowers and eggs don't need a maudlin death on a cross to have resonance. I object to the corruption of my perfectly sensible and enjoyable seasonal festivals with the agenda of deists.

I find it VERY interesting and telling that so many people who say they don't believe there is a God would take the time out to respond to an article written on the faith pages by a college student. I don't like sports, so you'd never see me writing in a sports blog. Hmmmm. Interesting.

I totally get what Elizabeth was saying. The lie of Santa is not the fact that St. Nicholas was actually a person in history. She's talking about the fact that parents tell their kids that this same person lives at the North Pole and makes a trip to every home in the world on Christmas (tell that to some of the Aids orphans in Africa). THAT'S the lie she's speaking of.

Elizabeth,
By looking at your backgrounds and education. Quite impressive!
There will be great future ahead of you. Keep your mind and option opens. You'll find true wisdom.
Best Wisher

Her blog, Campus Catholic, will cover her life as a student of religion, a roaming Catholic, and an eyelash-curling, high-heel wearing, wanna-be mystic.
---------------------------------------------------

Elizabeth,

I'm not sure if you read any of these comments. Obviously a public forum will invite the "public" and all the bad writing, nasty, bitter attitudes that often come with that on the web. Sorry for that.

That said, why insist on trying to be so cute and so pious at the same time? Your personal story is honestly delightful and touching but smacks of a certain degree of self-satisfaction. You still come across as someone who wants to look good to the establishment rather than challenge it. Going to elite, high-end, private universities and defending a traditional conservative faith and outlook as being brave is like looking for redemption from the comfort of the ivory tower. This article very much makes you seem more like a child of privilege than a pilgrim on the road to Gehenna.

People's need for Santa isn't just because they're well-intentioned but greedy. Consumerism often has its roots in people trying to aspire to reflect the kind of wealth, happiness and advantages in life you sound like you've already enjoyed yourself. Maybe some more thought should be put into how we can better be of service to each other and take care of the world we have rather than the world we yearn for.

Quite frankly, Jesus and flying reindeer seem equally sane to me. I had my own story of moving forward from illogical faith except it wasn't with Santa. It was with trying to make sense of Christianity itself. That's not just a matter of faith, however. For me at least, it's been a matter of trying to kill my own Buddha.

Don't be afraid to continue challenging yourself. Don't be afraid to get those high heels dirty.

Really, everyone should get a grip here. The aethists are just responding because they keep trying to justify their NOT believeing in God and the other religious people (because there could be other religions and denominations) here are just worried about loosing Santa. I think that Christmas is ok if you accept it for what it is. December 25th is not Jesus' birthday. It was a compromise set up by Constantine to appease both the Christian's need to celebrate their savior's birth and the pagan's already existing celebration of re-birth for the winter solstice. Regardless of beliefs, I think that having a "gift" day for everyone is great although we should be generous year round and not just with money. We have Valentines day even although you are suppose to show love to people year round too, not just taking one day to say "I love you" or to show you care about someone. In regards to Santa, there are a lot of stories about his origin and his true purpose and all of them aren't sweet. He is assimiliated into various cultures in different ways. So he is what he is.

However, I think the conflict comes when people try to associate a day with religion like its very existence was impartial, especially one of such significance to Christians. Especially since many Christian observances and figures use to come from paganism anyway. Christians use to just knock the heads off of pagan statues, put a different head on it and then call it a saint. When you do things like this, Suddenly Christmas becomes about money and extravagance. Suddenly a nice thing in spirit becomes tainted and I don't think that Jesus would've begrudged a "gift day" since they certainly do give a lot of gifts during Hanukkah and I'm sure he participated. So people should lay off Elizabeth. She is just reconciling a spiritual conflict that many people have. For some, realizing that some big guy really isn't coming down your chimney at night because he pre-judged you to be a good person, ate up your food (cookie offering), and then left you a trinket; or, that rabbits don't lay eggs and that Easter was a celebration to worship the goddess of birth, Aster. So just lighten up.

1. Dear Atheists: Please switch to decaf, pet a kitten, and settle down. All sorts of people who you might actually like believe in God or something like that. Also, keep in mind that, to the religious mind, your inability to understand faith seems equally ridiculous/stupid.

P.S. For a group of people who ridicule others for belief in a God, some of you guys do seem to be pretty enthusiastic in your worship of a Straw Man...

2. Dear Ms. Tenety: While I sympathize with your repugnance towards the commercialization of Christmas I would say that Santa Claus is a European tradition that I know gave me much joy as a child. At five, the metaphysical reasoning behind the Trinity and the whole Crucifixion deal was a little heady; Santa Claus made Christmas fun, even though I knew at the time that no overweight dutchmen were responsible for my receiving the bike I'd requested. Maybe Christmas trees, inflatable penguins, and gift-wrapped video games should be allowed to exist alongside the birth of Christ under that whole "Render unto Caesar..." clause.

Merry Christmas!

You know, Elizabeth, you took the wrong lesson from that epiphany moment about Santa. What you did was addiction replacement: Suddenly learn that the improbable, illogical figure of a widely shared collective fiction was...ummm...fictional? Well! Better to throw yourself much more deeply into believing in another improbable, illogical figure of myth and brainwashing! Believe HARDER this time! Don't waste your time on cookies... just light CANDLES! Talk to the new fictional character in your head! Avoid all evidence to the contrary! Post your irrational beliefs on a REAL Newspaper in the section on maintaining false belief systems! Yep. That must be the ticket.

"Wow. Wrong. Catholic? What language did he speak? Latin? no. Try Greek. He had nothing to do with Rome."

Thank you. At least one person on this board knows their history.

Flying reindeers are insane but a virgin giving birth and a man rising from the dead are not? I like Santa. Many of the best and most beloved things about Christmas are the pagan traditions not the Christians one. It is the pagan traditions of celebrating nature and life in the dead of winter and giving gift to children that has made Christmas beloved in so many parts of the world. Paganism humanizes Christianity. Without the pagan traditions making Christianity more palatable the biggest holiday in Christianity would be the morbid holiday about a man being tortured and killed before rising from the grave. Christmas is far less gruesome than Easter. Thank goodness for Christianity lite.

It is apparent, that presently, you have no children. Unlike you, as a child, we had no Christmas hooplah.Just the religious side. It is sometimes just as painful. What I hope you realize,is that, the Bible and even the pagan based holidays, were presented to the illiterate population to help them learn concepts in a pleasant and less traumatic way. Doing good works and having faith is learned. Compassion and acceptance comes from the heart. Now as a parent, we have Advent,Christmas and both the religious and secular traditions. My children learned that Santa Claus is the spirit of generosity and love. As they matured and realized that this was Santa, there were no tears, they understood.We are givers not takers

Reasonable not hateful writes: "The alternative makes no sense at all."

Clearly it isn't this loving forgiveness that really motivates you; your god's violent vengeance motivates you.

Thank you for the story.

The scene where you and your mother cry:
“I want Santa to be real,’ I wailed. ‘Me too,’ my mother cried. We held each other and wept.

Now, tell me why we cannot create a feeling of joy and love and warmth based on truth rather than a fabrication?
Why must so much flow from a make believe Santa and so little (in comparison) from what we hold to be true?

Why can we not have all that wonderful Christmas spirit without the inevitable discovery that some iconic figure does not exist after all?

Why not create a story and incorporate it into our lives, a story that we do not have to get over, we do not have to forget?

Or is it impossible?

Before Jesus was praised, 12/25 was the birthday of Mithra, a god who was born of a virgin, adored by shepherds, given frankincense by eastern astronomers, and had 12 disciples at his Last Supper, before being delivered up in an act which led to salvation. His priests were called Father, wore tall caps called mitres, and were headquartered at Rome's Vatican Hill. Jesus was a transparent copy of Mithra.

Please get your Buddha reference straight. The "plump religious figure" you refer to is Ho-tai, a lesser Chinese folk deity of prosperity, symbolized by obesity and gold coins. Figures of him are sold in souvenir shops worldwide, and are only confused with Buddha by people who don't know.

Please get your Buddha reference straight. The "plump religious figure" you refer to is Ho-tai, a lesser Chinese folk deity of prosperity, symbolized by obesity and gold coins. Figures of him are sold in souvenir shops worldwide, and are only confused with Buddha by people who don't know.

Well, Tj you can call it what you want- protection racket, whatever.

Let's see, God offers you forgiveness, love, peace,joy and all the things that make humans internally prosperous.

Like I said, you have a heart.

Learn to use it. The alternative makes no sense at all. The ego part of your brain is getting in the way. To chose your own way is lunacy.

This personal essay reminds me of my long-ago CCD teacher who related a Christmas story about her own family. She and her husband were students at the time and hadn't much money. Rather than let their very young children believe that Santa was disappointing them with few gifts, the parents told their children the truth about Santa.

I have never forgotten these selfish, idiotic parents. When my own 10 year old asks whether Santa is real (so many of her friends say he's not), I say of course he is.

I remember asking my own mother about that age, and she just said "What do you think?" in a nice way. I was so disappointed. I would have preferred to believe for one last Christmas.

Santa was a real person (St. Nicholas), but he is also a spirit.

I shop for Christmas, I donate, I try to be generous all year long to strangers and friends both.

But for all those who say "Jesus is the reason for the Season," and "Keep Christ in Christmas," I respond with a big, fat "Duh."

We can have both a merry time, and a reflective time. We can help others and celebrate with our families. Santa and Jesus are not mutually exclusive.

I believed in Santa longer than I believed in God. After all, Santa is a warm, generous sort of fellow. Whereas God is an insecure yet narcissistic tyrant.

Elizabeth - Giving up Santa finally after reaching college. What happen did the gravy train from your parents dry up? Is this kind like Bush giving up alcohol and cocaine after he has party for 30 years? Why is it all these religious drones have their fun and benefit from the systems they later derogate?

Oldfirehand - totally agree with your reasoning.

You got to be kidding... "I'm tired of hearing about Black Friday and all the hand-wringing on the evening news about whether or not sales are up this year or down."

That mass consumerism create jobs. It pays for basic necessity of life. What goes around comes around. If we all stop buying at christmas there would be alot of starving people with no roof over their heads come January and Febuary. Its kind of like the old catholic ritual of eating fish on friday encouraged by the church to support the fisherman.

Santa's as real as Jesus.

Santa's as real as Jesus.

Reasonable not hateful writes: "Perhaps God is a loving Father that sent His Son to save us through the Cross Jesus died on."

Save us from what, exactly? From the bad guy that this same loving father allows to heckle and harass us so that we have something to be saved from?

My heart steers me away from protection rackets.

To Anonymous,at 10;18pm
you say,
"Thanks for the article. From looking at the other comments here, it seems like people don't like being reminded of their faults. We all push God out of our lives in little ways, this is one more."

I say yeah.I pushed Jupiter out of my life years ago.Zeus too.And Apollo.And that dirty rat Cupid.
I never let Allah into my life,so I couldn't push
him out.Same with your no-name white God.

Old Firehand;
Way to give'em Hell,Old Firebrand!!
Receiving you loud and clear.
Pure gold.

No Accident wrote "You and Pierre JC seem to have a problem respecting what others believe and value. I have not found all atheists to be that way, why you?"

He is playing the world's smallest violin now that the "faithful" have had their fangs pulled. It must have been much more fun in days of yore to simply have the speaker arrested on a charge of blasphemy. A little waterboarding and there's no telling what the miscreant may confess to. But now we are supposed to respect every bizarre idea that is put forward as long as it's packaged as a religion, including Lord Xenu of Scientology. In my opinion, the only reason to respect the religious is the ferocity that they have traditionally displayed once they got the upper hand somewhere.

As to Merry Christmas' question "I am suprised on how many atheists are reading the "On Faith" section of the paper. Are you searching for something?" - you bet I am. I am keeping an eye on you religious b*stards to see what you're up to. I don't want to wake up one morning to find myself in a theocracy through the credulousness and ignorance of the American public. Wasn't there a report some time ago that 70% of Americans believe in angels? This mind-numbing absurdity tells me Enlightenment, not to mention basic common sense, are under attack. One has to be attentive to one's freedom from religion, after all, in order to be able to keep it.

Hey, Jacques Berlinerbrau nailed my point over on his "The God Vote" secularist-oriented blog:

"If Romney is especially lucky, nonbelieving secularists will prove my point that they lack political cunning, organization, and most importantly, effective leadership. They will troll Evangelical chatrooms across the web ceaselessly pointing out how much brighter they are than believers--a specialty of contemporary American atheism."

He did a better job than me of making my point. Maybe atheists ARE smarter. :-)

Thanks for the article. From looking at the other comments here, it seems like people don't like being reminded of their faults. We all push God out of our lives in little ways, this is one more.

I don't mind Christmas.Don't mind Santa either.
It's religion that I have trouble with.
I'm surprised,Elizabeth,that you haven't seen
what a lot of commenters here figured out long ago.
Jesus exists for us like Santa exists for kids.
We just have to have someone to believe in,it seems,
whether it's Allah,or God,or Jupiter,or Apollo,or Krishna,
or The Tooth Fairy;you name it,somebody somewhere believes in it.
Unlike other animals(as far as we know),we have this
imagination that is always busy making things up,especially gods.
It's the way we explained things until Darwin saw a better way.
Maybe you should read Darwin.Or Dawkins.Or Dennett.Or Russell.
Or Einstein.Or Matt Ridley.Or Stephen Pinker.
Or Jennifer Michael Hecht. Give the bible a rest for a while.

Nice one. Very thoughtful comment, TSOG. That's really going to open my eyes. Can't believe I never saw it before.

Again, I say, why are you commenting on this particular post? If you want to take on the Existence of God, maybe the posties can have a page for all that debate to take place.

But why do you get off on this?

You Religious Sicko Freaks need to wake the fuck up! And stop living in a make-believe world!!

Good lord. What the hell is the matter with the atheists on the board here? Go hang out with Susan Jacoby. Don't believe in God? Good for you. Hooray.

But why why WHY do you insist on chiming in to belittle people's consideration of faith?

I'm glad you're a BRIGHT. Really. But let me persist in my ignorance, OK? I'm not gonna go post a missive on my beliefs in the Jacoby line, OK? Let's call a truce.

You're never gonna change my mind. I'm not going to change yours. And what's more, your attitude here makes me a million times more resistant to hearing what you might have to say.

"Fortunately, we don’t need Santa. We have Jesus."

Here's a tip: You can have both. You can enjoy the secular nature of the season without forgetting the religious nature.

Clearly, you still have much to learn. Don't divest your life of Santa just yet.

Thank you for a great article and stimulating some pretty predictable conversation. I agree with the gist of the piece that "Santa" has been morphed into the burl ives-y nostalgia. You rightly take issue with this but you seem unaware that St Nicholas of Myra (Santa) is, in fact, a saint of the Church. Instead of throwing the suit and boots out with the bath water, why not urge us all to reconsider the Saint, himself?

Thank you for a great article and stimulating some pretty predictable conversation. I agree with the gist of the piece that "Santa" has been morphed into the burl ives-y nostalgia. You rightly take issue with this but you seem unaware that St Nicholas of Myra (Santa) is, in fact, a saint of the Church. Instead of throwing the suit and boots out with the bath water, why not urge us all to reconsider the Saint, himself?

Thank you for a great article and stimulating some pretty predictable conversation. I agree with the gist of the piece that "Santa" has been morphed into the burl ives-y nostalgia. You rightly take issue with this but you seem unaware that St Nicholas of Myra (Santa) is, in fact, a saint of the Church. Instead of throwing the suit and boots out with the bath water, why not urge us all to reconsider the Saint, himself?

This column isn't befitting a leading national paper like WaPo, this is teen blogger blarg.

Any kid with half a brain figgers the santa caper early on... when first able to comprehend the physics that a 60-inch girth cannot fit a 4-inch chimney flue...sure it does, its magic, Disney SAYS SO....and arrives at millions of homes...all at the stroke of 12...yes dear, he's VERY fast...

The older I get, the less I spend this time of year. I hope one of these years we Americans finally say 'enough' of this brain-dead orgy of spending on meaningless crap, conned into believing its our patriotic duty to consume consume consume. I'm tired of hearing about Black Friday and all the hand-wringing on the evening news about whether or not sales are up this year or down. Who cares, go live your life and forget the screaming ads for the 5AM door buster special.

Go be with your family instead of those mobs of run-you-over morons clawing at "bargains" like the Vietnamese clawed to get on the last helo out of Saigon....

Oh you're so cute. You gave up Santa to find Jesus. Oh you're so holy. You gave up one childhood myth to find another childhood myth. Oh you're so clever. You gave up pretend to find blessed pretend. Oh you're so WHATEVER GET OVER YOURSELF DUH!

One of the worst arguments Christian's make for believing in a god is the old foxhole one.
It says,"if you're scared enough,you'll believe"
Which says loud and clear that Christians believe because they're scared of death.
I figured that out myself years ago.
Without death nobody would be religious.
Its fear of death that fills the churches and and the pockets of the priests.

"Fortunately, we don’t need Santa. We have Jesus."

At first I thought that this article was satire ... please, let it be satire ...

Elizabeth,

Looks like you took a beating from most of the comments here. I just wanted to chime in to let you know I enjoyed the article and agree with you. Obviously there is a good tradition of St. Nicholas but the whole "Santa" thing has strayed from that greatly and become too commercial and selfish. So despite many of the posters' criticisms, I got the spirit of your argument.
For the first time I'm refocusing my attitude and practice of Christmas, with more reflection during Advent (even though I'm not Catholic) and giving in different ways.
Thanks for sharing.

The killing the buddha line is a koan. It's a brain teaser of sorts. There is no right or wrong answer. The point is to exercise critical thinking, a skill that has gone entirely out of favor with the majority of the pious types. I interpret "if you meet the Buddha on the path, kill him" to mean: don't be so eager to follow someone. It can also mean: let go of your ego. Like I said, there's no right or wrong answer, only enlightenment. If you meet the Marlboro man on the billboard, set it on fire.

Tom said: "Direct, eyewitness testimony is considered valid evidence in court, even in the absence of hard forensics." and "... because these committed witnesses are 2000 years removed from us, we don't consider their testimony valid any longer."

Who are these witnesses? The chapters of the Bible was written after the events, up to several hundred years after the events in fact, and has been significantly modified through translation and deliberate editing. This "evidence" does not even rise to the level of hearsay, which is inadmissable in court.

Furthermore, even if it were the direct written testimony of those individuals, it would not be admissable unless those people were available to be asked about their experiences, for reasons others have already covered in the thread above.

This is not evidence that could be brought up in a court of law, but then again it doesn't have to be, so admissability is irrelevant. What should be of concern to those who believe is the complete lack of reliable evidence (i.e. what would be considered reliable evidence) for those beliefs. For no other aspect of anyone's life would they accept the kind of evidence they accept for their belief in god. Yet still they do, blinded by something (perhaps the threat of eternal damnation?), unwilling to accept the inevitable conclusion that their god, like santa, does not exist.

"Clearly it was not that way with you, but why the snide remark about putting the possibility "where the sun don't shine"?"

Because you insultingly insinuated that 1) atheists won't fight, 2) fear for life makes everyone believe in your god.

"You and Pierre JC seem to have a problem respecting what others believe and value. I have not found all atheists to be that way, why you?"

Excuse me? It's not that I have a problem respecting what you believe. You have a problem respecting my beliefs, since you presume that "when you're afraid for your life, you'll turn to God".

If you think I have an attitude, it's only because you've been an asshole to atheists all up and down this thread, and have earned attitude back.

"Just as I have found some athiests willing to discuss what they believe without tossing verbal sticks and stones around you might be surprised to learn that their are some people with faith willing to do the same."

If you weren't insinuating cowardice or convenience to our belief, perhaps you wouldn't get snapped at back.

You threw the first stone, glass-house dweller. Deal with it. You were only willing to insult us; not discuss reasonably.

When you wish to apologize, then we can talk.

"Wow. Wrong. Catholic? What language did he speak? Latin? no. Try Greek. He had nothing to do with Rome."

Ummm... might want to brush up the history. Much of the Roman empire WAS Greek speaking. Remember the Roman empire went all the way from Britain to Anatolia. The eastern half of the empire (where all the money was, btw), was Greek-speaking. And when the western Roman empire collapsed in the 5th century, the Greek-speaking Roman Empire (aka the Byzantine empire, but they just called themselves Romans) went on for another thousand years.

Well, first off, you don't understand the meaning of killing the Buddha. It means that one should kill in oneself the ego-self that tells us that we are God-like, which makes it fairly ironic that you would metaphorically use it, because, God knows, you seem to be caught up in making sure your "God" is cleansed of all "non-God's" in our minds. What's that sentiment again? The one about the log in one's own eye...?

What the Zen saying means is that one can only finally transcend into union with "God," Yahweh, the Emptiness-that-contains-all-things, whatever plow you want to semantically hoe,when you finally let go of wanting to divide "God" into "non-God." This true meaninmg would be instructive for you with some self-reflection.

As far as pagan goes, I'm certainly no mythologic regressive, but it would be equally instructive to know that the Council of Nicea, with a little compromising from Constantine (because he was broke and needed cash to replenish his mercenary army...no conversion there) decided to make Sunday the day of the Christian holy day as a concession/incentive for the pagans to join in the new club. You see, the Pagans at that time prayed to the Sun God; that's right, Sun-day. Before that, the Christians did their thing on Saturday.

Then again, you're right, let's just take all of the fun out of everything in some religious fit of self-importance. I'm sure "God" would love that...

Sparky,

In reference to foxholes and faith, I said perhaps the one might foster the other. Clearly it was not that way with you, but why the snide remark about putting the possibility "where the sun don't shine"? You and Pierre JC seem to have a problem respecting what others believe and value. I have not found all atheists to be that way, why you?

Just as I have found some athiests willing to discuss what they believe without tossing verbal sticks and stones around you might be surprised to learn that their are some people with faith willing to do the same.

St. Nicholas was a Bishop in Asia Minor now the country of Turkey dying around 340 AD. He was known for helping the poor in a way that would allow them dignity and not be embarrassed by the charity.

Supposedly he did this by leaving money in socks so it would be easily found and later many miracles were ascribed to him. The Catholic Church later made him a Saint with his feast day as December 6th. Some say that he did not die but went on throughout the world and the centuries continuing his help of the poor and giving gifts in celebrations of Jesus’ birthday, Christmas.

Whether you chose to believe it or not, there are many who feel that they are his helpers in some small way by trying to do the same that he did, helping the poor and bringing some cheer into children’s lives.
If you don’t want to believe that that is fine but, I find amazing the anger that is displayed by some of those who insist it is all a fairy tale especially any belief in the divinity of Jesus.

You may think me deluded and ignorant but that is okay since your opinion does not matter to me, you still have my pity for your anger.

Saint Nicholas was a Russian saint. I don't know where this link to Italy comes in. He saved children and is their patron saint. We put our shoes out on his feast day - yes even as a 36 year old woman I believe in the sanctity of giving.

"Perhaps if Pierre JC spent some time in a battlefield fox hole with real bullets flying around instead of in a newspaper taking his own cheap shots at people of faith, he might discover what he is searching for. On the other hand, he might not."

I did. And I'm still an atheist.

So take that 'no atheists in foxholes' line and put it where the sun don't shine.

Oh, I miss the days of live and let live.

As an Apathic Agnostic (We don't know and we don't care) I really find both radical positions hurtful for society. So people want to shop until they drop to celebrate a holiday that is quasi-Christian? Good for them. Let them pay the credit car bills. That you are a rabid atheist that want nothing do with Christmas or Christianity? Well, good for you too. Why is it that neither one can seem to just let the other be in piece? Why are Christian always assuming we all need to follow their believes? Why is it that atheists always seem so pissed off and judegmental of everyone else? And Why is it that both always retell history according to their views?

As far as I can tell, there has been just as many attrocities from the religious side (The Spanish Inquisition, the crusades, Muslim Extremism) as there has been from the Atheist side (The Nazis, the Soviet Union, Cambodia)..You can take the 1960's and use Indonesia and Cambodia and show that both sides can be just as brutal and inhuman.

So I say, to each its own in peace, whatever that is, as long as it is yours and yours alone. Spare the rest of us your anger, your ideas.

I believe the last sura of the Koran says just that.

And by the way.....Saint Nicolas was an Italian saint, and the tradition of the stockings came from Italian nuns who stuffed socks with oranges and apples and left it on the house of poor people. Let's at least get the historical part right.

To explain why so many atheiests participate in the "On Faith" section of the paper, Pierre JC wrote

"We (athiests) are searching for an explanation as to why alleged adults indulge in the patently idiotic fantasy of having an all-powerful, magical, invisible friend."

Perhaps if Pierre JC spent some time in a battlefield fox hole with real bullets flying around instead of in a newspaper taking his own cheap shots at people of faith, he might discover what he is searching for. On the other hand, he might not.

The kind of ideals that would influence a person to willingly sacrifice for others in some way would make no sense to a person that wants only scientific explanation for what he opts to believe. Life in all its dignity and diversity defies the kind of scientific explanation that would satisfy me. To say that life is a pure accident is to say that life defies scientific explanation. An accident does not fit into logical formulas any more than does creation. It puzzels me how some scientists can be satisfied with such an explanation while they seeks to unravel the mysteries of infinite space and time with numbers called irrational and constructions such as "i", the mysterious square root of minus 1.

If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him. Had to dig deep in the memory bank for that one. What comes to mind is a short story by Gibran. A priest walks along the road coming across a man near death. They speak to each other, as it becomes clear the injured man is the devil incarnate. 'Leave me here to die, evil will be gone from the earth as well as your need to preach against me...help me, tend to my wounds, nurse me to health, we can work together...'

The priest took the devil under his arm. This is beyond helping those less fortunate, the downtrodden on the side of the road.

Kahlil Gibran, check him out, author of The Prophet.

"Fortunately, we don’t need Santa. We have Jesus."

So you're replacing one promises-and-cookies fairy tale for the ignorant with another.

But you've taken a step back; because Santa is a fairy tale for the unwillfully ignorant - children - and Jesus is a fairy tale for the willfully ignorant.

It's like willfully tying off a lobe of your brain with a tourniquet in return for a fake promise that there's something for you after you die.

Jesus is make-believe for grownups.

Hmmmmm..... TJ.

Perhaps God is a loving Father that sent His Son to save us through the Cross Jesus died on.

You have a heart TJ.

Perhaps you should use it.

Religion is a virus that makes people

mentally ill. Some of us got "brainwashed"

when we were vulnerable and captive to our

parents whims. And God is a lousy excuse

for one's ignorance of nature and science.

I do believe if you Americans gets on fighting like this, even over a simple thing such as SANTA CLAUS, America will sink into an abysm without any chance of recovering. Here in China where I live...even it is communism...Santa Claus is everywhere...making young and old alike, happy,festive,content, and looking forward to progress and health and happiness...not worried if Buddha is or is not this o that, or if Santa Claus is or not this or that. They are just rejoicing in the festive mood and thankful Santa Claus is here to be part of the Party. Wake up! you full-belly complainers!

I do believe if you Americans gets on fighting li