MG,

Well said. I am motivated by emotion, humor. And I am in total agreement, what we say is never objective. Still, it can be fun to rattle cages.

By the way, William Law was an apostate in whose eyes? And Joseph Smith was an apostate in whose eyes? Throw out that evidence and look at Joseph Smith's life as a con-man. How could he have turned out he book of Morman in 60 days? Plagarism? The same way Mohammed synthesized Judaism and Christianity into a new religion. These "prophets" appear all the time, self proclaimed. And the children of their followers believe.

Joseph Smith was uneducated, but you would think someone who read an ancient papyrus would be able to write, not transcribe. I mean, God's agent should be able to shit the transcript.

There is some controversy whether Judas Iscariot actually did betray Christ or it was God's plan. How could an all knowing God betray himself?

Yes MG, I do have doubts. My belief system, Christian by birth, is no more than mythology. But I doubt Jesus was tried in court as a flim flam man. I am not defending him, he must have pissed off some powerful people but we don't have the court documents describing his character.

And no, I could not read the Book of Mormon any more than I could read the whole Koran (meant to be in Arabic anyway) or the entire Bible. I get the giggles and can't stop. Hopefully Mormons aren't like Muslims and issue a fatwa against me for ridiculing their faith. Peace, I give up.

Bob,

"only that my beliefs are not lead by emotions but by examination, by study, and hard won analysis."

This self-applied description of your methods is on shaky ground by your very comments that follow:

"the founder of your religion was such a horn dog"

This hardly sounds like an "emotionless conclusion." Self-declared "objective" inquirers are many times actually equating "resistance, skepticism and disbelief" to "objectiveness." I have news for you--you are not objective, and neither are most of us. In fact, I'm convinced that "objectivity" is practically a myth. All of us have some position that we start from, including myself. Skepticism is a position. Belief is a position. If the "objective" conclusion turns out to be wrong, then it was never objective in the first place, just plain wrong.

Case in point. You quote William Law in 1887. William Law was an apostate who became an enemy of Joseph Smith. But he was close to Joseph, right? Guess what? Judas Iscariot was close to Christ, yet he betrayed him. On what basis do you trust William Law? You trust him because you already have an antagonistic position that you start from, and it is effortless for you to believe William Law, an apostate of nearly 50 years by this point, because it fits your belief system. I contend William Law's comments are suspect. People can lie. People can exaggerate. Your blind acceptance of William Law shows that you are as much a victim to emotional evaluation as the rest of us.

Now am I objective? I'm more concerned about being correct than objective. They are not synonyms. I have found that starting from a position of assuming the worst more often than not leads me to the wrong conclusion. I'm sure Bob has never read the Book of Mormon. Someone still has to explain how an uneducated farm boy could produce such a work in 60 working days. In fact, if anyone can reproduce such a feat they could call it into question the book once and for all. This would require more effort than most are interested in. No Bob, you are not an objective observer. Your problem is not that you have doubts, but that you don't have enough doubts. If you put your own belief system through the same rigors that you attempt to put those of others, it would likely crumble under the weight.

Bob,

You say Joseph Smith's con-man status is self evident fact, even proven. It is an example of somebody mistaking polemics for serious research. Most recent biographies that I have read by non-Mormon scholars conclude Joseph Smith was an authentic religious genius namely, Jann Shipps, Harold Bloom and Lawrence Foster. Fawn Brodie is perhaps the only serious scholar who suggested he was a con-man plain and simple. She however, is criticized for ignoring Joseph's personal writings, which reflected sincere religious yearning. Every time I read Hitchen's writing on Mormonism I am flabbergasted at how he can be considered a credible commentator on the faith when he makes countless errors. For example, he claims Mormons preached against abolition in Missouri, when part of the reasons given for persecutions by the Missourians was Mormon abolitionist writings. After the Missouri expulsions Joseph issued a few critiques of abolitionists, but later strongly advocated the abolition of slavery in his Presidential platform. This is just one example of many errors I notice when reading his commentary. But people on the quasi-religious side of the atheist spectrum don't seem to want to question their leaders.

Best,

Jd1

P.S. If a late testimony given from a hostile source to a hostile source is your example good documentation then I would question your definition of good documentation.

Parker,

I was giving Candice a break but I won't let you put words into my mouth. I never said that I thought my information was misguided or false, only that my beliefs are not lead by emotions but by examination, by study, and hard won analysis.

This is not to say I am asking you to believe what I do or don't believe in. Just don't expect the same from me either. What I thought earlier was that Mormons have codes of wisdom that proscribe the use of tobacco, caffeine, alcohol, and gluttony just like many other religions but that the founder of your religion was such a horn dog. I mean, the guy tried to put his leg over anything that moved, married or not. You can call it a lie but it was very well documented.

"Joseph was very free in his talk about his women. He told me one day of a certain girl and remarked, that she had given him more pleasure than any girl he had ever enjoyed. I told him it was horrible to talk like this."
- Joseph Smith's close confidant and First Councilor, William Law, Interview in Salt Lake Tribune, July 31, 1887"

Horn-dog, con man, professional liar, plagiarist, pederast, pedophile, and hypocritical asshole.

To quote Christopher Hitchens, "In March 1826 a court in Bainbridge, New York, convicted a twenty-one-year-old man of being "a disorderly person and an impostor." That ought to have been all we ever heard of Joseph Smith, who at trial admitted to defrauding citizens by organizing mad gold-digging expeditions and also to claiming to possess dark or "necromantic" powers." This is the polarizing figure that started the Morman church, try as you like to defend him I will find your efforts ludicrous. There is much more information you could read to shake your faith if you had a questioning mind, but why do it? Why upset your apple cart?

An Arab Muslim once spoke to and LDS scholar and asked him, "You mean to tell me you believe that God had a Son on earth and then had Him killed to pay Himself off?" He shook his head in disbelief. Now a Christian would stand up and say, "That's a caricature! That description is not the way it should be painted!" There are those in some countries who will not even listen to anything about Jesus because he was a convicted felon. Trying to explain it is useless. The answer is "but He was a convicted felon!"

This is what happens when you listen to too many caricatures from those of one side. The 'well-documented' atrocities of Joseph Smith are usually penned by enemies who happened to be alive at the time. If we had the Pharisee Bible, it would be "well-documented" that Jesus was a charlatan. Every document was written by a person. The problem is we give automatic credibility to something because it is old or "documented." Who says the document is right? Emotions go into every depiction. As humans we can't avoid this. I've seen much of the so-called "documentation." I've also read over 100 first-hand accounts of those present at the Kirtland Temple during the pentacostal experience after the dedication. Why won't you detractors read those documents? They at least merit perusal. Why not read the Book of Mormon itself from cover to cover and come to your own conclusion?

Go to www.mormon.org and give both sides equal time. Ask yourself a question--if I had grown up at the time of Christ steeped in Jewish tradition, could I have overcome that to stop and listen to Jesus' message? If Jesus showed up now and told me that my version of Christianity had gone astray could I accept it? There is a lot of attacking and very little introspection nowadays.

Bob,
You're correct that there is a lot of false and misguided information written about Mormonism by people like you who are frustrated by disillusionment and seeking to figure life out on their own terms sans inspiration or accurate information. Best wishes as you try to figure yours out. Those who follow the Word of Wisdom, "walking in obedience to the commandments," find that peace, love and compassion towards others, introspection and good health are closely intertwined. Many non-LDS enjoy the benefits of these practices also. Peace to you.

Sorry Candice,

I don't have a problem with your Words of Wisdom, or your well meaning self, but with the founder of your religion. Don't feel singled out, I feel the same way about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Unfortunately I tend to think more with my head than my heart and this makes many beliefs untenable for me. Yet I have no problem with ethics or certain codes of behavior.

It is better not to view any religion too critically, it leads to disillusion. And that is where I am.

Candice:

Actually, by modern Western standards, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob WERE pervs.

Bob: I think you need to review some of your facts. If Joseph Smith was such a pervert, I'd love to know the names of all his illegitimate offspring or, for that matter, children born to wives other than Emma Smith who had several children with Joseph Smith. Dig a little deeper, please! And Bob.... a lie told 150 years ago is still a lie today. For that matter, are you implying that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were perverts, too?

You need to review some basic LDS beliefs on the subjects of marriage and exaltation.

So, Bob, please- FOCUS- the author states some well thought out comments regarding the Word of Wisdom. Boy, are you way out!

I know there are many people who do not believe in Mormonism. (Just reading some comments, I can see why ... epecially seeing so many being fed a whole multitude of false or misguided information)

I think your idea of eating a moderate diet is a good thing, but no, I don't believe in Mormonism. Unfortunately, it is well known that Joseph Smith was a con man, and probably a sex pervert. That is not misguided information, it is history from not very long ago and well documented. It's okay to believe in the tooth fairy if you want but don't ask me to.

Andrea - merry meet, lady!

I know about busy schedules. I work 10-hour days and perform with a handbell choir and do community theater. Sometimes I do find myself in a drive-through or dialing for pizza delivery, but not often.

When I know I'm not going to have time to cook, I cook ahead and freeze. Spaghetti sauce, red beans (or any other kind of beans), soup, chili, can all be thrown into a crockpot before leaving home in the morning, and all you have to do when you get home is cook pasta or rice to go with them. They all also freeze well, so you can make a lot when you do have time, and freeze it for when you don't.
Meatloaf, gumbo, biscuits and cornbread also freeze well.
Some stores sell prechopped raw veggies - a meal in themselves, no cooking needed.

Lepi,

Personally, I think that's a great way to live and view diet and medications. A few years back, I was on about 5 or 6 medications (some for the side effects of the others) and finally decided to stop them altogether. I feel better now than I did when I was taking them! I also agree with you about food. Unfortunately, I'm not the best cook and with being gone 11 hours a day, some nights a frozen pizza is just fine with me. I hope to someday be able to take the time for food prep and eat more organic foods and replant the garden at my house. I can eat fresh veggies like candy.

I really can't think of any religious advice on diet that I've heard of. Most restrictions on diet in religion are for self-deprivation purposes during holy times.

If it's edible, I eat it. Red meat, white meat, vegetables, fruits, alcohol, sugar, caffeine. All in moderation most of the time, with occasional splurges just for fun. I eat balanced meals - more fresh veggies than meats. I don't eat meat every day.
I cook from scratch, and I leave convenience foods on the supermarket shelf. Anything that has a label that reads like a chemistry textbook isn't going into my belly. I grow some of our food, but don't have the space or time to grow it all.

I used to smoke tobacco, and quit when I got pregnant with my daughter and decided to carry the pregnancy. Occasionally, I will pick up a cigarette or cigar when I'm overly stressed or if I'm at a party where I'm drinking more than usual.

I occasionally (once every few months) partake of other recreational preparations, also in moderation.

I am generally healthy - a case of the sniffles when the weather shifts abruptly, a rather rough menopause - other than that, no complaints. I take no maintenance medications, no flu vaccines, not even vitamin supplements. If I'm eating a decent diet, I don't need supplements.

I feel compelled to further explain the Word of Wisdom in terms that have not hereto been mentioned. It goes way beyond caffinated beverages, tabacco and alchohol.

A quote I should point out is that the scripture says clearly that the advice is "To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint"

It is not a commandment, it is "wise" advice from the Lord.

Now, let me quote and further explain another particularily important verse to those who are unfamiliar with the Word of Wisdom... it says:

"In consequence of the evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you and forewarn you by giving you this word of wisdom..."

It is my opinion, that this, and a few other related quotes make specific reference to the greedy and conspiring individuals who own and operate many of the big name food manufacturers and fast food giants (and all similar companies) who take part in things like:

putting unnatural ingredients and chemicals into our foods for longer shelf life, lining our boxes with poisons to keep them from deterioration, adding colors, flavors, addictive substances,...and even altering the very genetic biology of plants (and animals) for better taste, smell,color, size and/or to make them more resistant to elements, like droughts and insects.

These foods "individually" don't contain enough harmfulness to not pass FDA guidelines, however, when consumed "collectively" in the amounts we commonly eat of each product, our food is actually building up and becoming extremely toxic to our bodies and our children's bodies.

An example of just one disease that I beleive is triggered or worsened because of todays diet is Autism. Is it just coincidence that Autism is on the rise? I don't believe so.

I find it very interesting that these individuals are so sensitive to many seemingly common foods and cannot digest common grains like wheat. Wheat is a staple food and had always been healthy, yet, now that it has been so genetically modified over time, the gleutin is no longer becoming digestable.

The peanut, the soy bean, corn, and the coconut have been altered so horribly over time, that trace amounts have even become lethal to some people.

The list goes on and on...

obesity, diabeties, certian cancers, heart disease, kidney disease, fibromyalgia..etc. are all worsened/triggered by our diet. I could go on, but think you get my point.

In the past, I wasn't personally living the "Word Of Wisdom" to the level that I now know I should be.

I am, absolutely positive that I wouldn't have gotten so overweight and wouldn't have been so subject to certian diseases and illnesses had I understood the real meaning of the W of W and had been more dilligent.

My sister and I gained our own enlightenment about a year ago. I hope others will read this for what it is intended for and be enlightened too.

We have both been strictly living the Word of Wisdom for quite a while now. My sister, who was once morbidly obeise, has lost 100 pounds. Her skin is clear and beautiful, and her edurance and clarity of mind is unbeleiveable. I am not far behind. I have lost 50 pounds and am feeling amazing. My children are at healthy weights, display clear minds and are even doing better in school.

People often ask, "what diet are you on?".

It is so hard to explain, because I don't want to sound preachy (saying.. I'm just living the "Word of Wisdom"), so usually, I tell them that I no longer eat foods with any type of preservitives in them. (Especially foods with modified, refined, or hydrogentated ingredients... like soybean oil, palm oil, corn syrup, or MSGs, artificial sweetners, and flavors/colors etc,etc) I do my own baking(whenever I can), grow my own garden(because I can),and exercise everyday.

Surprisingly, I don't put any kind of focus on calories, fat, carbs, protiens, sugars etc.

When I eat "real" foods for every meal, I have naturally been inclined to eat just enough to be satisfied, and do not seem to have any unusual cravings. (like I used to)

I still shop at the grocery store, but I am extremely cautious about what I buy. Unfotunately, I can't grow all my own food, so I still need to purchase much of my friuts and vegitables at the store, but, I try to go as organically as possible.

It may seem extreme to most people, but, to me it is the only way to live.

I know there are many people who do not believe in Mormonism. (Just reading some comments, I can see why ... epecially seeing so many being fed a whole multitude of false or misguided information)

But regardless, I have a personal testimony of the Word of Wisdom. Not because of facts or theologies, but because I have tested it. Knowing the results, I cannot ever deny it to be anything but true and wise council.

Chase,

I was particularly interested to hear your response to my post. I work as a missionary in a city that has played host to many Mormon missionaries and I have so many questions, but I can't very well walk up to all them and ask them on the spot. Hopefully, you can shed some light on a faith that is little understood outside the confines of its own doors.

Thanks.

JC

Maybe Mormons are alot healthier because there is no constraint on having sex. Joseph Smith not only had many wives he made it a point to enjoy the wives of others as well. Perhaps that is a healthy lifestyle that could help all Americans. Goodbye Puritans, hello Mormans!

Well lets see; the "Words of Wisdom" over fairly recent history have included:

Stay away from fat and eat carbs; no wait, carbs make ya fat, eat low carbs.

Eat margarine not butter, cholesterol will kill ya; no wait, trans fats are worse, eat butter.

Eat fish cause its good for ya; no wait, fish has too much mercury/PCB's/etc better not.

Alcohol is bad; no wait, alcohol is good for your heart.

Take your Vioxx if you wanna feel young again; no wait, Vioxx'll give ya heart attacks.

Drink your bottled water, it's much purer than your tap; no wait, it's got plasticizers and the bottles trash the enviroment.

No, the days of swallowing revealed truth from on high are far from over. I'm just hoping tobacco's gonna turn out to have some fabulous beneficial effect one of these days.

Well lets see; the "Words of Wisdom" over fairly recent history have included:

Stay away from fat and eat carbs; no wait, carbs make ya fat, eat low carbs.

Eat margarine not butter, cholesterol will kill ya; no wait, trans fats are worse, eat butter.

Eat fish cause its good for ya; no wait, fish has too much mercury/PCB's/etc better not.

Alcohol is bad; no wait, alcohol is good for your heart.

Take your Vioxx if you wanna feel young again; no wait, Vioxx'll give ya heart attacks.

Drink your bottled water, it's much purer than your tap; no wait, it's got plasticizers and the bottles trash the enviroment.

No, the days of swallowing revealed truth from on high are far from over. I'm just hoping tobacco's gonna turn out to have some fabulous beneficial effect one of these days.

It really is poor wording on my part. It would be fun to hear how people interpret dietary health and their faith.

So........you're interested in how other faiths handle dietary health.

I cannot speak to that.

Would you be interested in how I handle dietary health?

Correction: "He who eats meat, eats unto the Lord"

Chase,

In Christianity there is great freedom concerning what one eats and does not. In my particular faith tradition, all alchohol consumption was strictly looked down upon although that has begun to give way more to what you mentioned about moderation. Now if we consider what the Bible says, we can recall that we are told our bodies are temples so it would be logical that we had better take care of them as such. Although strict dietary guidelines are no longer obligatory as they were for those under the Old Covenant/Mosiacal law. The following scripture came to mind upon reading your post.

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man's faith, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so unto the Lord. He who eats meat, eats the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

That comes from Romans 14:1-6 for any who would like to look it up.

I too abstain from coffee, alcohol and smoking (also I go easy on mind-bending drugs and red meat) but not because some small-town nineteenth-century confidence man's collection of snippets from other people's books of faith and morals tells me too. We can be fairly certain that most Mormons would be sensible and neighborly and civic-minded even if they weren't saddled with the most preposterous hodge-podge of hand-me-down theology ever to issue from an alleged angel and his or her golden plates that haven't ever turned up.