VIOLENT video games ARE HORRIBLE!!!!

Interesting indeed. Seems violence has become less apalling than sex. But lets stay focused, seems many have put the church before christ. its not about the word but about getting them into the building (by use of deception)and then we will give them the WORD! Salvation doesn't really interest the world as much as Halo does. Video Games are fun, they can be used as a tool for fellowship, but choice of games can make a difference. While there are many versions of Alice in Wonderland...the X rated version is not the one i purchased for my children.

I believe that most of the people who are responding to this blog-post should be classified as insane or at least mentally incompetent. What Ms. Tenety does is write about her own personal spiritual journey which all of you have decided was important enough to not only read, but to respond to. To berate a young women who is willing enough to share her innermost spiritual and personal feelings is more than deplorable, it is downright shameful. Maybe if Jimbo spent a little less time attacking a young women and a little more time searching his own spirituality the world would be a better place.
Keep up the good work Ms. Tenety.
Don't let the bastards keep you down!

Wakka Wakka,
Everyone says finding one's faith is a personal journey, but I ask you, would you even KNOW about faith if you were to never engage in a community exercise with like minded people (i.e. MASS, a family that practices religion, lock-ins, retreats)?

If you were isolated from the entire world, would you still find christian (or any mainstream) faith?

Everyone can say finding faith is a personal journey, but it is laced with the interactions you have with groups of people. That was my point in reference to the blog post which was specifically discussing the author's "How to make jesus more relevant to the youth". The author brought in examples of church efforts to RECRUIT youth to build COMMUNITY. If you don't think video games create community, I encourage you to go to a lot of the old folks homes that are buying Nintendo Wii's by the boatload.

So do COMMUNITY activities "enrich one's fellowship in God?" I don't agree with your "obviously not." With group activity comes comradery. With comradery comes compassion. With compassion comes love. Don't people say "God is Love"? Does it matter if the activity is violent or not? People become closer to each other through violent activities (same platoon, same hunting trip, same team playing Halo) as well as non-violent (camping, hanging out, same sports team). Are these practices the same as the traditional pray at meals, bedtime, and practice the sabbath activities that enhance your relationship with God at a personal level? No.

Besides, her blog post didn't claim this is done "AS a focus of one's faith" she was responding to a NYTimes article about the use of Halo as a RECRUITMENT tool, and NOT "PRAY 2 JESUS BY PLAYING AS TEH MASTER CHIEF IN HALO!!!1!one!!" as you have posited. And her blog post didn't add anything to the discussion of the NYT article other than "Hey everyone, did you read this? Are they serious?! This is deplorable..." end of blog post. She even referenced ignoring "investigative journalism" So what can it be classified as? Opinion. So why even blog under the auspices of "investigative journalism" if you aren't going to practice it.

NYT synopsis: Halo as Recruitment
Her point: Recruitment method is an abomination
My point: vehicles and psychology behind recruitment techniques
Your point: Halo doesn't bring you closer to God

I'll let you decide who's off topic.

Looks like CHIEFJIMBO missed the point entirely. Does a LAN party (particularly of an albeit entertaining, but nonethless violent, game such as Halo 3) genuinely enrich one's fellowship in God? The answer is 'obviously not', it's just a sought reason to play video games. Which is perfectly acceptable, I mean church youth groups do all kinds of non-religious stuff in addition to the faith focus. But claiming this is done AS a focus on one's faith is pretty laughable. And there's the actual point for you.

So you can harp all you want on whether Churchgoers should be hunting or killing 'God's creations', or irrelevantly whining about blogs, but you didn't really say anything about the actual issue here.

Shared experience (good or bad) whether they be camping, paintballing, video gaming, waiting in line, or even sitting in the same room form cohesive bonds. Whatever stimulus you are presented as group, the response is positive for most of the participants.

Do participants in LAN gatherings go out and start killing people? Think about killing people? The data do not show it to be so. Heightened adrenaline may be, but heightened comradery at some level definitely.

Should church folk participate in virtual violence? "Thou shall not kill virtual enemies." Should church folk hunt? That's violence against animals. How about killing that spider that lives in your basement? We may rule over god's creations but does that mean we have the right to snuff out His creations?

In any event, is this diatribe what passes now in Medill's New Media Program? It's not by any means investigative nor is it journalism. It's typical "troll" blog authoring. The author provides no insight to the topic, just "Hey, this was reported on and this is crap!" Also the lead was weak and the "witty" swipes serve only as to interrupt the flow of the article. But then again the flow was more stream of consciousness anyway. Otherwise, the author could have at least asked a friend "Hey, do you play Halo? Do you know somebody who does, I'd like to find out more on this piece I'm writing", and received better info than the manual and online reviews especially info that pertains to experiential testimonies from people who have actually played Halo in a group setting.

There are numerous books on the subject of how to blog but one of the most concise articles on it I found here:
http://lifehacker.com/software/feature/geek-to-live-write-effectively-for-the-web-134549.php

I trust Medill is pumping out quality New Media creators and not low quality bloviators.

"And yet, there are people trying to convince us that there is but one true way to worship corretly. Am I the only one who finds that ironic ..?"

-And there's plenty of people insisting there's no divine power and that all faith is stupid.

Who cares? Both are part of the dumbest discussion that happens around here, which is, alas, probably the most common.

How can you criticize something you haven't even played? Basically you already had your mind made up and then wrote your 'story'. This is not journalism.

Secondly, Halo is a GAME. The news is much more violent than watching cartoon characters get blown up with rocket launchers and laser beams. It does not evoke feelings of hate or violence like a true war, so stop treating it as if that's what it is. It is just a game, and anyone that had ever actually played it would know that. Try writing about something you have an ounce of knowledge about next time.

How can you criticize something you haven't even played? Basically you already had your mind made up and then wrote your 'story'. This is not journalism.

Secondly, Halo is a GAME. The news is much more violent than watching cartoon characters get blown up with rocket launchers and laser beams. It does not evoke feelings of hate or violence like a true war, so stop treating it as if that's what it is. It is just a game, and anyone that had ever actually played it would know that. Try writing about something you have an ounce of knowledge about next time.

There are 80 some posts here, by people of belief and people of less so. Only 80. Even taking only the postings by the "believers" into consideration it's evident that no consensus or anything resembling it can be reached. That should hardly come as a surprise. And yet, there are people trying to convince us that there is but one true way to worship corretly. Am I the only one who finds that ironic ..?

There are 80 some posts here, by people of belief and people of less so. Only 80. Even taking only the postings by the "believers" into consideration it's evident that no consensus or anything resembling it can be reached. That should hardly come as a surprise. And yet, there are people trying to convince us that there is but one true way to worship corretly. Am I the only one who finds that ironic ..?

As an avid gamer myself (and an admittedly not-so-avid church goer), even I have to agree with Ms. Tenety. this is a blatant conflict of interests. A church can not teach peace, love, and other philosophies of Jesus while catering to acts of violence, whether simulated or otherwise. Simply put, I doubt very seriously that anyone would condone a violent Rated-R movie to be shown at the church "in the name of fellowship."

Am I saying that video games should not be used or played in the attempt to attract youth to church oriented programs? No. There are plenty of competitive video games that don't have violence in them that would be perfectly fine. The issue here is the choice of video game. Fundamentally, an organization should not use something that goes against its own ideology as a tool for its own benefit.

Liz...as a graduate of Jesuit schooling (and yes, a drop out of a seminary) I would just point out to you that you have discovered the great dichotomy of the very notion of religion.

Religion just doesn't fit humanity...it isn't how God designed us or intends us to live. You have discovered this inadvertently but none the less dramatically.

Providing an outlet for agression is a poor substitute for training that agression out of the people - unless, UNLESS God is preparing us for the Ultimate Battle by channeling and honing our agression.

Eventually he will use us to fight a war against evil (wherin we will also do evil) so that his "choosen" on some far distant planet do not have to soil their hands and minds with doing that evil!

THAT is how God does business with us!

As a religious individual and a long-time casual gamer, I can't scoff hard enough at this concept.

Though I feel it's hardly worth talking about in-depth. The fact of the matter is it's not any more SCARY than what youth already play in video games (just a change in setting), and it's simply a weak fad -- like many churches do these days -- to try and attract people with glitz, entertainment, and fun. It doesn't work, and time will prove me right, as their numbers dwindle in the future, like all grassroots Christian movements in American history.

And I say that because there is nothing this sort of "fellowship" (and sadly, many other evangelical/fundamentalist/etc communities in the world) offers in the way of real spiritual substance. They may try to blend creature comforts into the "fellowship" or services, which detracts completely from the Christian message, or harp on hot-button issues, like that's really what Jesus was preaching on... rather than actually being upstanding humans and fellow citizens according to those actual teachings.

Video games aren't even linked to real-life violence anyway, so this whole thing is just a bunch of lazy teens with an uncreative religious youth leader doing what they always do and pretending it can somehow be considered holy, charitable and/or grace-giving in the eyes of God.

At worst, I'll await "1337 H4XORZ 4 CHRIST" starting a cyber-crusde in the near future :)

Muslims? The game (I haven't played it, or seen it played, but I've heard about it, which I guess here qualifies me to pontificate) is about stopping warmongering UN-hating religious radicals who see themselves ascending to heaven when the Earth is destroyed, and in your blind pride you think they represent "Islamofascists"? How left behind can you be?

Jesus would kill none while adhereing to "Give on to Ceaser what is Ceasers" thus obey the law, pay your taxes.

I agree with the concerns some have voiced about the gratuitous violence and questionable premise of Halo.

Nonetheless, if young people are socializing by getting together for LAN sessions, again I say there's a valuable opportunity for dialogue on the moral and spiritual issues raised by the game. And this kind of dialogue can easily segue from the game world into the real world.

And I'll also say again that this must be a DIAlogue. Young people, amazingly enough, seem to prefer being listened to rather than preached at. Even more astonishing, they have some things to say that their elders (both in and out of churches) ought to hear.

These kinds of opportunities can then be win-win for both groups.

Elizabeth .. That there being those whom prey on young minds( by any means )in that nothing new. Acts of sexual abuse against children be a clear picture that based on knowledge,within a mature understanding,being balanced in fair judgement. With acts of religious abuse the picture not so clear,the ongoing cunning as deceit of religious organizations be a cancer,over the centuries it has eaten into the very bowels of humanity,such the extent of corruption,that Governments fund as support religious organizations,funding them as allowing free access to teaching as learning centres,where young minds being poisoned,damage to the brain, reach appalling levels,its ability of further service in a childs development being greatly reduced.Humanities Spiritual Development being no easy task,it long a story,as a journey.

Most of these arguments take the road of moral relativism to make their point: ie, Halo is a game and not as bad as X.

The fact is, if Halo was extremely popular because it allowed alien Romans hunt down an alien Christ, giving this desirous demographic the opportunity to score points by flogging the Lord. we would be debating about whether this game resulted in fellowship among the post-pubescents.

Killing is killing. Allowing congregants to participate in the action in any way shape or form is not appropriate to church.

Maybe we should develop games that give the boys the chance to hunt down and shoot Terrorists. Or Muslims in general. Or Jews. Or Gay Episcopalians. The possibilities are endless.

Most of these arguments take the road of moral relativism to make their point: ie, Halo is a game and not as bad as X.

The fact is, if Halo was extremely popular because it allowed alien Romans hunt down an alien Christ, giving this desirous demographic the opportunity to score points by flogging the Lord. we would be debating about whether this game resulted in fellowship among the post-pubescents.

Dsigusting.

Why is everyone complaining about the author not investigating Halo more closely? If it was drugs, would you say that it was sloppy journalism because she did not try a snort?

That videogames are addictive is not even worth debating since many game writers have discussed at length how making the games addictive is the number one priority of their publisher - and for obvious reasons. That violent video games lead to some increased violent moods is also documented. (A not-so-fun experiment you can try at home: make a 10 year old stop playing his favorite videogame.)

But the issue is not whether videogames are good or bad, just that they do not lead us to think about God or anything related to religion - so why make that the basis for a religious fellowship? (At least hallucinogenic drugs make some people reflect upon their relationship with the universe.)

Lord, protect us from thy followers.....

This makes it abundantly clear that the cristian church is moral and ethical vacuum. It's a giant psychological Ponzi scheme, dedicated to drawing more people into it, at any cost and by any means necessary.

It's simply apalling. The world would be a much more humane place to live if all religion was banned, and each of us had to actually think for ourselves instead of having a moral code forced on us by old white men.

i can see the effectiveness of using video games in attracting children to churches. they work in attracting kids to the video game sales sections of walmarts, kmarts, and just about any other retail outlet. the question here is whether attracting children to church by using a video game that requires they kill members of a fundamentalist religeous sect is the appropriate way of selling children on religion. this is a means of indoctrinating children, not enlightening them, expanding their horizons, or giving them means of more deeply connecting with their faith.

i can see the effectiveness of using video games in attracting children to churches. they work in attracting kids to the video game sales sections of walmarts, kmarts, and just about any other retail outlet. the question here is whether attracting children to church by using a video game that requires they kill members of a fundamentalist religeous sect is the appropriate way of selling children on religion. this is a means of indoctrinating children, not enlightening them, expanding their horizons, or giving them means of more deeply connecting with their faith.

i can see the effectiveness of using video games in attracting children to churches. they work in attracting kids to the video game sales sections of walmarts, kmarts, and just about any other retail outlet. the question here is whether attracting children to church by using a video game that requires they kill members of a fundamentalist religeous sect is the appropriate way of selling children on religion. this is a means of indoctrinating children, not enlightening them, expanding their horizons, or giving them means of more deeply connecting with their faith.

Please don't be so naive to think you're in the better half. There are good people in this world and there are evil. How the mix falls into religious and non-religious only God knows.

Please don't be so naive to think you're in the better half. There are good people in this world and there are evil. How the mix falls into religious and non-religous only God knows.

first Jesus would not kill anyone but His Father did not seem to be bothered by killing.
and despite what the king james version of the bible says - and others - the 10 commandments do not have one that says "thou shall not KILL." the proper translation is not MURDER, or not TAKE INNOCENT LIFE.

It's not surprising this topic has generated so much discussion. But why should anyone care what the post's author has to say about it? She herself admits that she didn't do any real research. Reading an article in the NYT and looking at the Bungie website does not make her an expert on the subject matter. Several of her assertions about the game's plot and setting are factually incorrect. Halo 3 made $170 million the first day it was out; she's a college student, and she doesn't know anyone who bought it?

As a gamer I find her attitude offensive. If these churches were screening Star Wars or the Lord of the Rings as part of their youth programs, would there be a story in the New York Times about it, or an ill-informed blog post on the Post's website?

RELIGION POISONS EVERYTHING IT TOUCHES!!

What happened to the good old days when the fundamentalist churches burned record albums that they thought were Satanic?

Seems to me that it would be much more effective to have an "XBOX 360" burning party at the church. Come on kids, bring 'em in. Burn baby, burn!

Yeah, exactly! Locomoco's got it right on this one, I think. Just checking back anyway. And Nate, with all due respect, I think it's a pretty big shortchanging of the Bible, even as (I suspect) an agnostic or atheist, to say that it is simply filled with pointless violence. It still is a very good set of principles on which to base one's life. But that of course is not the point (and your opinion still stands). The point, like L.c.m.c. said, is that the importance of this program is what the kids involved will draw from it.

I'm also a little disappointed, as I realize it, that nobody actually thought to ponder the opinions of the teens. I don't know, it seems flawed to be so disinterested in that.

"Which Aliens Would Jesus Kill?
Faithbook | Before you buy that Xbox for Xmas, consider Halo -- the new video game drawing church teens into holy war."

-taken from wapo internet page linked to this page.

ugly ugly ugly..

Halo is no different than the Bible itself -- filled with pointless violence.

Ah think I'll defer to Allah on that one, thank ya very much! What do ya say Allah?

When I was a teenager, the big church a mile down the road started a coffeehouse and hosted live music every Saturday night. It was very popular with high schoolers in the area. (This was the last few years of the '60s, but thank heavens, terminal flower-child geezerhood does not disqualify one from still being a college student.)

They also had rock concerts in the gym every month or so. This got us interested in getting together and starting our own garage bands so we could play at these concerts. Four or five good bands came out of those church-sponsored concerts where we honed our chops. Heck, I was already playing the pipe organ at church and it was a blast to start playing a cheesy Farfisa in a rock band too!

We even ended up touring various churches around the state putting on a rock worship service during the day followed with a dance that evening.

The result of this youth outreach ministry was that when we had youth service in the gym every Sunday, there were anywhere from 150-170 kids, sometimes more than the regular main service.

Then I went off to college, the youth minister moved on and for some reason he wasn't replaced. And when I came back in the summer, the whole thing had folded. What a shame.

The key back then was the very same as it is now: meet the kids "where they're at". Give them a natural reason to come around and hang out. Once you do that, then you can start to engage them in some spiritual dialogue. (In this case, perhaps asking the kids what THEIR thoughts are about the philosophy behind the game?? Wow, what a novel concept!)

If youth pastors think video games can help create the opportunity for those types of dialogues, it's worth a try.

Ohhh wow. I actually had no idea that any church would host a Halo party. I don't know... I've played once or twice, it can be fun but it's very obviously addictive so you just think to yourself, "there is more meaning to life than simulated killing," and walk away. Not terribly hard. Anyways... the Halo players I know are not violent or immoral, some are really upstanding guys, in fact. So just to let you know, Halo doesn't really contradict morality. And honestly, yeah, the ends justify the means in teenage religiousness, because I recently sat in a classroom with 24 other kids and an embattled senior citizen for three months. She tried as hard as she could to get across the genuine importance of morality while cell phones rang and little games on Blackberries or other twerpy little mechanical mistakes were played over and over. The kids didn't even hide their laughter over their hollow delights as the teacher grew frustrated. She nearly cried one time.
It just made me angry that these kids, with their brains rotting from gray matter's candy, somehow expected to pass an examination (yes, we had one... due to weak showing of religious dedication in our grade) and, more importantly, considered themselves worth saving. Honestly, it would take the temper of Jesus to let them into Heaven. They're fortunate that he is the decider on this one.
But you know what? If you can get these kids to actually work together as a team on a fun project, make church a respite and teamwork the only option for success, what do you get? Kids who will start learning, in the most bizarre ways, what it is to be a Christian, why we value community and brotherly love. WAWJK? The one about to take out his teammate? No, of course not. But which one would a good Christian kill? Well, just maybe....

After reading all these comments - and from a perspective of an American that has been out of the country for 16 years - I can only say that the US is in big trouble. Whew!

Anon,

Uh, last I checked, only one person has the power to condemn anyone to Hell. Now, do I believe Hitler to be in Hell? I would assume he didn't have a personal relationship with Christ, based on his actions.

BTW: Was that website a jr. high school project?

There is a story (attributed to one of the rulers of ancient Rome) :

A general in Africa wrote to the emperor
that he had only so many ships. He could
either send back grain for the starving
masses or wild animals for the Circus.
What should he do?

The emperor replied with scorn and anger:
"You fool, the animals first: the people
must have their games and blood !!"

For anyone out there with the power left to think,
this might be of some interest.

Ki-Jana: Any of you fellas condemn people to hell, Hitler maybe?

Hitler noticed it was a matter of who will send whom to hell. Mr Bush set out to send Hussein to hell. Has he? Is America headed for heaven or hell? What's the fellas up to these days, training hard for the big crusade? I'll bet most will want to burn their draft cards.

History is written by the winners so the losers are always the bad guys. When Jesus comes again will those who support Him be on God's side or the side of Devil? All you have to answer is the Bible, and a few odd docs left out.

Jesus was fathered by the supernatural being in the ball of fire, the one Moses made the deal with to become the most important person that ever lived. Was that being God or could it have been Devil?

Check it out at http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul When the big fight comes at the end of the world you'll need to know. The stakes are the highest anyone could dream up, an eternity of being on fire, burning without burning up. Odd, that's the distinguishing characteristic of God, bush burning but not burning up, same ones as hell.

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Mr Bush rushed into Iraq. Angels knew better.

Which aliens would Jesus send back into hunger and poverty just because of national borders?

God. You folks miss the whole point of church, spiritually, video games, and friendship. This is not about video games v. camping. This is simply about the lack of discipline. Hell if you can't leave the camping or video games home for a few hours to do something for God then your pathetic.

Jesus. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son". What are you willing to give to God? Couple of hours out of your week?

Please... talk about real things.

God. You folks miss the whole point of church, spiritually, video games, and friendship. This is not about video games v. camping. This is simply about the lack of discipline. Hell if you can't leave the camping or video games home for a few hours to do something for God then your pathetic.

Jesus. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son". What are you willing to give to God? Couple of hours out of your week?

Please... talk about real things.

Maybe fellowship was a key theme to the Nazi's, but to use it in the context that Norrie is using it is absolutely absurd. I fellowship at my church, at work, and with a wide, diverse group of friends. Oooohhhhh, could it be we've been brainwashed by Hitler's cronies?

I would laugh at Norrie's statement if it wasn't so sad and disturbing.

The following paragraph comes from the OSU web site mentioned above by Heavens To Betsy:

The packages were put together by a fundamentalist Christian ministry called Operation Straight Up, or OSU. Headed by former kickboxer Jonathan Spinks, OSU is an official member of the Defense Department's "America Supports You" program. The group has staged a number of Christian-themed shows at military bases, featuring athletes, strongmen and actor-turned-evangelist Stephen Baldwin. But thanks in part to the support of the Pentagon, Operation Straight Up has now begun focusing on Iraq, where, according to its website (on pages taken down last week), it planned an entertainment tour called the "Military Crusade."

If that ain't establishing religion it cain't be established.

All religion is devil worship as proved at http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul

"Nothing beats good old reality"

Right Emil.

Like drawing a cartoon and getting death threats?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPaeu4RMdFo

wake up people!
dont you know
there is a great relationship between violent video games and the killings that have been going on in schools...... there is
alot of serious research in this issue.

video games were first developed to immunize soldiers from the effects of killings....... and today almost every kid plays those violent video games, just think!

the issue is serious and complex.

today the video game industry is bigger than the Hollywood film industry

Norrie -

If you have to bring up the SS and the Nazis, you've already lost the argument. I shouldn't need to even dignify this with a response.

Every human endeavour (good or evil) requires fellowship to make its organizations cohere. Without fellowship, any operations of any variety are doomed to failure. This applies to churches, countries, civil rights groups, whatever.

Nothing beats good old reality, where religious fanatics have killed more real people than any gamer have done in Halo.
When governments all over the world uses "God" for a reason to go to war, this seem pretty harmless in comparison

greetings from cold Sweden

'“Playing Halo is ‘no different than going on a camping trip,’ said Kedrick Kenerly, founder of Christian Gamers Online, an Internet site whose central themes are video games and religion. It’s a way to fellowship."

**************************

John Griffith (Bright) wrote:

"...you would be better served to attend a gaming group and observe the fellowship before you dismiss its value. Online reviews and Halo's website are unlikely to provide relevant data on fellowship in gaming."

Fellowship was central to the organization and operations of the SS and the Gestapo, not to mention the violence in "Lord of the Flies".

'“Playing Halo is ‘no different than going on a camping trip,’ said Kedrick Kenerly, founder of Christian Gamers Online, an Internet site whose central themes are video games and religion. It’s a way to fellowship."

**************************

John Griffith (Bright) wrote:

"...you would be better served to attend a gaming group and observe the fellowship before you dismiss its value. Online reviews and Halo's website are unlikely to provide relevant data on fellowship in gaming."

Fellowship was central to the organization and operations of the SS and the Gestapo, not to mention the violence in "Lord of the Flies".

'“Playing Halo is ‘no different than going on a camping trip,’ said Kedrick Kenerly, founder of Christian Gamers Online, an Internet site whose central themes are video games and religion. It’s a way to fellowship."

**************************

John Griffith (Bright) wrote:

"...you would be better served to attend a gaming group and observe the fellowship before you dismiss its value. Online reviews and Halo's website are unlikely to provide relevant data on fellowship in gaming."

Fellowship was central to the organization and operations of the SS and the Gestapo, not to mention the violence in "Lord of the Flies".

'“Playing Halo is ‘no different than going on a camping trip,’ said Kedrick Kenerly, founder of Christian Gamers Online, an Internet site whose central themes are video games and religion. It’s a way to fellowship."

**************************

John Griffith (Bright) wrote:

"...you would be better served to attend a gaming group and observe the fellowship before you dismiss its value. Online reviews and Halo's website are unlikely to provide relevant data on fellowship in gaming."

Fellowship was central to the organization and operations of the SS and the Gestapo, not to mention the violence in "Lord of the Flies".

gotta go ... but honest ... I've had to hold my belly a couple of times in the last few days ... I felt I was Jack Nickolson in that scene in "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest" ... you know the scene ... when the're having a session and the one guy is talking about suspecting his wife ...

... anyway ... look forward to the next session boys and girls ...

until then I'm going to try to get Nurse Ratchet to turn the game on ... later!

GODTOLDMETO --

You wonder why ... ;) ... kidding, right?

You don't think Mel Gibson did The Passion' out of devotion, do you? ... it's $$$$$ baby ... best form of advertisment is word-of-mouth ... and what better word-of-mouth strategy than tying a product to some controversial forum ...

... and don't you dare encourage them to stop this controversy ... this is funny stuff, dude

I wonder why the storytellers of Halo would select religion as a vehicle to cause anamosity and hatred amongst otherwise civilized peoples?

Could it be that they were students of human history? I'd suggest they were.

It's time for humanity to grow up and out of it's infantile need for an "invisible friend in the sky". Lest we become the covenant, and in some distant future we launch ourselves to the stars to bring "civilization" to some poor unsuspecting species.

Wake up people!

Matt --

"Any way that is needed to bring people, youth together ..."

Just asking ... do you see a need for drawing lines? ...

if video-games are arguably instrumental in bringing youth together ... would it be reasonable to hold bible studies at Hooters for those of the non-video-game persuasion?

Enjoyed the article. Very funny. I hope that's what you were going for.

Fallucination,
You have my sincerest apologies. However, I said "most of the comments" earlier.

Victoria -

Give me a break. Halo 3 is not practice for killing Muslims any more than Space Invaders is practice for killing Soviets. Beleive it or not, fictional universes are able to exist without drawing DIRECT parellels to modern times. Besides, the idea for Halo has been around a lot longer than has our modern "War on Terror." If anything, the Islamofacists are copying Halo and using it as their strategy to destroy our freedoms (TM). If we don't do something soon, they might get themselves some space ships and start bombing us from orbit!

Oh wait. You mean people can distinguish between games and reality? NO WAY!

On a related note - the minister's attempt to engage in a discussion of good and evil through the prism of Halo strikes me as a somewhat ham-handed approach to the issue. I could see how it could work really well, but Evangelists (in particular, though other varieties of conservative Christians do the same thing, *ahem*) tend to be rather crude in their ability to construct analogies or extrapolate general principles from a specific story (fictional or real). I'm reminded of the assault on Harry Potter for having unGodly magical elements, or the attack on The Lord of the Rings for not explicitly including Jesus. When Evangelicals realized that JRR Tolkien (for example) was actually devoutly religious, it was amusing how quickly they changed tunes. Of course, their interpretation (Sauron = Satan, Gandalf/Aragorn = Jesus) belies the actual subtleties Tolkein develops in his stories. Boromir's fall and redemption, for example, is much more powerful when taken in its own context, rather than some forced analogy to a biblical character.

America is overpaying for Christian mercenaries to kill indiscriminately, greasing the wheels to allow its own agencies to torture, outsourcing the REALLY dirty stuff to our "allies" like Egypt, all the while wrapping itself in all the Christianity it can strap on, and you're still on about video games?

I play Halo; I LOVE Halo. I don't hate anybody, I adore animals, I visit my parents every weekend, I'm very active in peace activism, and I find it very, very entertaining to lay waste to vast swaths of computer-generated graphics when I get the chance.

Betsy,

That's it! You've done it! Teens everywhere should start engaging in "safe" sex because some random number of people you may or may not have known in high school, appeared to have sex, which in turn, appeared to draw them away from violent activities.

You might as well have said that teens should have sex because you may or may not be color blind.

And how "safe" is something when the manufacturer goes to great pains to express to the consumer that the product might not work?

Playing Halo has nothing to do with Christian fellowship... In fact, it is a complete atrophy of the brain, a much too common affliction affecting our youth (and also the not so young).

If you want to encourage true Christian fellowship... go help the poor, feed the hungry, assist the sick and infirm. Otherwise, just bring on the booze, the porn and any other vice that is antithetical to Jesus' teachings.

ERRINF --

"Writing an article on a game you haven't even encountered in person is a bit silly."

... but why would it be silly if she accepts the second-hand information and has come to believe and have faith in the pronouncements of the believers? ... wouldn't that fall in the "faith" category? ...

I know this may seem a bit off or an attempt at mockery ... I assure you it is not ... I am actually intrigued by many of the arguments I've read regarding faith ... and given the reliance on mysticism in the gospels, I have to wonder about the role of technologies (e.g., virtual reality, hollograms, etc) in future debates ... proof vs faith ...

Frankly, your statement seems to be purported on little except rumor and personal beliefs. Any way that is needed to bring people, youth together, whether it be youth dances, fireside chats, or Halo tournaments, it doesnt really matter. It would be no different than hosting a girls beauty/nail seminar in a church-owned building.

I hate it when people who don't know anything about a subject make broad generalizations, form inane moral judgements and make idiotic conclusions based on their utterly ignorant perspective.

Based on this posting (among others), I could for example conclude that journalists and prospective journalists always care more about deadlines, profits and looking good for their editors/graduate schools than about actually writing informed pieces that convey useful information to the public. I am not a journalist, and don't intend to waste my graduate school dollars on such a career, but from what I can tell from poking around media establishments such as this one, this article and others pull from the fictions in the heads of the writers rather than real facts or understandings of issues. I certainly don't need to look any deeper than this to understand how the journalistic structure of the Washington Post works, or how journalists do their jobs, or what the implications of a less than cursory glance at the matter might be.

Of course, if I were to make such conclusions, maybe I would be a journalist.

Beleive it or not, most people who play video games (just like most people who watch horror films, play violent sports, read violent books, or do any number of other things) can distinguish between "game" and "reality." It's really not hard. One of these things exists on a television screen, and the other does not. No one (or vanishingly few) people who play Halo take away the lesson that they should use high explosives and automatic weapons to solve their life's problems, any more than people watching Saw III really think there is a moral lesson to be learned from the psychopath's behavior.

In fact, as one of the anonymous posters pointed out in so many words (and John Griffith pointed out more explicitly), Halo is played (much as Monopoly, Risk, Paint Ball and Laser tag are played) as social activities. Some of them include a violent or morally reprehensible component, but amazingly, everyone who plays such games manages to distinguish when it is appropriate to bankrupt your neighbors (in Monopoly), and when it is not (in life). What actually happens when people play Halo is that they have a fun time PLAYING A GAME. A game is an activity often done with friends as an entertaining diversion. One might see a game as a waste of time, in that one enjoys time with friends without actually accomplishing anything meaningful in a broader sense, but typically, this isn't the objective of playing a game in the first place. Instead, the idea is to have a fun time, building fellowship and camraderie. These ministers are smart to try to build the spiritual bonds between the youth in his community, even as they also work to build their spiritual bonds with God. These ministers understand that a one-dimensional approach to something like spirituality (say, mind-numbing lectures about God) is unlikely to connect with the youth of any era, and so are using the tools of the era they are in to help keep the community of church relevant with the other communities youth are involved in.

Unlike alcohol, pornography or drugs, which might also attract some young people, games are a wholesome way of building bonds between people that doesn't require breaking laws or polluting the body with foreign substances. Graduate students may forget that alcohol isn't a necessary lubricant for all people's social lives, but well, I guess that happens. I would argue that for the purposes of a ministry, a game (which is easily separated from reality) is a far less destructive an ungodly activity than intoxication (which is of course a direct impact on your real, physical body, and your perception of reality) as a method of social fellowship.

I would hope ministries would also do camping trips and other outdoor activities in addition to video game parties. There is certainly something to be said for including a physical component to spiritual (or general) education. I don't see how this contradicts or invalidates the supplemental approach of video (or board) games as another kind of activity to build community.

I agree with DavidM: When I was growing up, the churches I went to that had activities like game nights and sleep overs (and camping trips) were the ones I returned to and build community fellowship at. Perhaps surprisingly for Elizabeth Tenety, those were also the churches at which the spiritual education they were also trying to impart had the biggest impact.

You know, the attraction to violent video games may be somewhat mitigated if we just let teens enjoy safe sex with each other. The people who actually had sexual relationships in my high school days were the ones least likely to be attracted to any sort of violent/destructive pastimes (like paintball, violent video games, football and the like).

I suppose I can see the point of depriving both sex and violence in a religious system; it's unfortunate that the church can't channel those pent-up energies in their congregation to fuel their evangelism.

Oh, wait.

Maybe they can: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-aslan22aug22,0,4674900.story?coll=la-opinion-center

sarah:

Those u-tubes were so awe inspiring I think I'll,, ah, I'll,, uh, I think I'll,, no, can't say that,, grunt,, I'll,, oh yeah,, oops,, can't say that either,, ah,, OK,, got it, leaves me speechless.

There is little doubt such things will cause a great leader to arise that all can follow. It's the "lemming effect."

Lemmings are cute, cuddly, fury critters that engage in uncontrolled reproduction, like Catholics they make all the babies they possibly can. Then comes the food shortage. But no rioting, no taking to the streets. They're civilized. Instead, a great leader emerges and they follow him in stampede as he races over the cliff.

The smart ones don't follow great leaders. But they're not all that smart for they do it all over again. Maybe eventually they will evolve, get reproduction under control. Until then great leaders are a must.

What do lemmings have to do with those films you ask? Those films are about the rise of a great leader, what the game is about too isn't it?

The return of Jesus is not the question. The question is who will run His kingdom while we wait for Him to return. The one who runs things, a king, dictator must be great for the kingdom of Jesus is great. Not much democracy in religion but there are great leaders,, and there are cliffs too.

This site is a kick in the head ... very entertaining!!! ... lol ... my beloved Tigers and Cardinals lost so I was getting bored with sports and politics ... although three sweeps in the divisional playoffs and a Clinton-Gulliani face-off does have entertainment potential ... damn Yankees spoiled the four-sweeper ...

sooo ... if this Halo things proves successful, would the participating churches take it to another level and maybe commission ATARI to put together a virtual reality of the gospels? would they include the Thomas version? also, forget the violence argument, why are those fat Christian kids not outside playing baseball anyway? ... I mean how in the world can they aspire to walk on water sitting on their increasingly fat asses playing video games? ... what would Jesus say to whichever-of-the-seven-sin-violations-this-falls-under for Christ-sake?

annnnd ... to the heretics ... gimme a break? ... most of you are the liberals that attack the conservative law-makers about censoring HBO and the internet ... if a tv show is not likely to influence a kid into committing a crime how can you seriously attack this initiative? ... I mean I get the hypocritical argument but it seems you want it both ways ...

...ok ... ok ... hit me from both sides ...

Have you no friends, woman? Surely, there must be somebody you know wherein you could actually go play Halo with on their X-Box, or just watch the game being played. Writing an article on a game you haven't even encountered in person is a bit silly. It's not like you have to go buy an X-Box and Halo just to play it. A little effort in the investigative journalism arena is probably a good thing, don't you think?

Anyway, I agree that Halo is a horrible game to be tying into Christianity. They should simply have X-Box night, and include racing or sports games rather than shoot 'em up games.

Davidm -

I know full well what LAN parties are; my analogy with camping still holds. A church is sufficient but by no means necessary to hold a LAN party. Similarly, a church is a sufficient group, but by no means necessary group with which to go camping.
I remember a local church (which several of my game friends attended) holding DOOM 2 and Marathon LAN parties in the mid-90's. My friends and the other Lutheran gamers did not go, because even back then LAN parties were not exactly tough to organize outside some sort of institution. These weren't rich kids, either, and hooking together a bunch of 486's in a network is much more difficult than XBox 360's. In fact, I know several high schoolers who regularly haul their XBoxes around to various LAN parties. These kids are mostly non-Christian and so I'm pretty sure they aren't doing their gaming at churches.

I don't know too much about Halo 3, but I did live with an avid gamer for three years who regularly played Halo 2 online and in LAN groups. I can even identify Master Chief and the Arbiter!

this is actually frightening to me.
first the fact the the author doesnt seem to find any contradiction with learning christain values (not killing being an important one)
saying it is "a LITTLE different" than camping, and she could go on- but them doesnt.

i was watching a special on the wart in iraq, and one of the young soldiers showed off his display panel, and indicated how easy it was to use, and then commented that his years of vidoe gaming had paid off.

he seemed to make little connection between the screen, and thefact that his targets were actual breathing humans this time.

the desensitizing of youth- the soft boundaries that are encroached upon when these teenage boys don REAL military uniforms, and go and kill REAL muslims (aliens) is only a matter of a few short years.

as the connection was already made by another poster-

" “the Covenant, a collective of ALIEN races united in their FANATICAL religious devotion. Covenant religious elders declared humanity an affront to the gods, and the Covenant warrior caste waged a HOLY WAR upon humanity with
gruesome diligence.”

who could doubt that the ALIENS waging HOLY WAR are meant to protray muslims?

here is an excerpt from the article-

" At Sweetwater Baptist Church in Lawrenceville, Ga., Austin Brown, 16, said, “We play Halo, take a break and have something to eat, and have a lesson,” explaining that the pastor tried to draw parallels “between God and the devil.”

is there any doubt who the EVIL are?

in 2 years this young man may be proudly displaying his own display panel, killing muslims in iraq (or iran) and convinced that he is good for doing so!

what kind of bizarre christianity is this?

such a dehumanizing indoctrination really chills me to the core.

can anyone hre IMAGINE what the outcry would be if there was a mosque that had a video game where
muslim children were blithely killing aliens that were a coalition of CRUSADERS?

but what is truly terrifying is the ease with which this story is related, and the cyber killing downplayed.

REAL LIVE 16 year old boys are being gunned down as we speak- by the older brothers of the gamers-

and a little child shall lead them- indeed- refers to leading them to peace- not pseudo-murder in the name of Jesus(ata).
this really really scares me.

I think this is a reflection of Christianity's ambiguous stance toward violence and destruction (love thy neighbor vs. Armageddon fetishism), which is even more broadly reflected in our culture's embrace of violence in real life and in fantasy. I read the Times' article, and I found the logic justifying using "Halo 3" as a recruiting tool perplexing. Religious leaders routinely accuse elements of popular culture of sullying our youths, but because "Halo 3" is hugely popular, it's somehow OK. So the gameplay in the "GTA" series is morally abhorrent, but because you're nuking virtual aliens in "Halo 3," that's cool?

What I really want to know is what's the answer when one of these kids asks, "So if these aliens were real, did Jesus die for their sins, too?"

It's laughable that neither the author nor most of the comments reflect a knowledge of the video game, Halo 3, or the events the youth minister is actually holding.

Most of you read "video game" and think of a single person playing against a computer. While Halo 3 features this aspect (called Campaign Mode), the bigger appeal of the game is in multiplayer mode. In multiplayer, individuals form teams of 4 and compete against one another with specific objectives in mind (Capture the Flag, King of the Hill, etc). This version of the game is played on the XBox Live network.

The youth minister is hosting LAN parties for this type of play. LAN parties are highly regarded in the gaming community because they allow players to bypass the sluggish internet and directly link their XBox's for fast, competitive play. The results are incredibly fast, team-oriented play.

While comparisons to a camping trip are moot, kids LOVE to play this game in this manner. Had the author spent any time whatsoever researching the subject she would have realized this since multiplayer is now considered the biggest aspect of Halo by most gamers.

If my church had hosted these types of parties when I was growing up, I would have spent more time there, so would lots of other kids.

United Nations Space Command?

Everyone knows that American Christians hate the United Nations.

For some reason you make the assumption or assertion that simulated violence is a bad thing. Humans are violent by nature. We wouldn't survive if we didn't kill. Video games are just a way for young people to act out their naturalistic urges without hurting anybody. There is a great similarity between camping and video games, which is that both are descendants of violent activities that humans have partaken in for more than 100,000 years: namely, hunting. Why diminish the value of either in terms of a social activity that strengthens bonds within a community of faith?

As an aside, it's pretty obvious that this video game is just an allegory for the current world condition. The covenant is fanatical Islamofascists and the UNSC is the US/West.

I've already devoted a fair amount of time to playing Halo, and I can say for certain that is not nearly a bloody and violent as the "The Passion of the Christ"...In terms of body count, God in "The Ten Commandments" outdoes Halo by a mile with the plagues and the whole red sea trap...

You Christian's sure are a violent sort, I'm going to stick with my (relatively) peace loving Halo 3...

Observer - I applaud your ethics - the ends definitely do not justify the means. But you also wrote "Nobody goes anywhere." How do you know that? Because you are extrapolating from your understanding of evolution? (If so, read this month's First Things) Because you have been burned hypocritical religious people? (If so, I'm sorry.) In any case, it needs to be pointed out that your statement is itself essentially religious and needs some reasons behind it. Otherwise, it's just a bald assertion, or blind faith.

RE: original post
Thanks for the stimulating critique of these methods. I agree with Griffith's analysis of the rhetorical move you made, but you are certainly right that we must use good means to accomplish our ends. I see the tension between violent video games and a religion in which the most violent thing I need do to someone is "shake the dust off my shoes."

I suppose the broader issue is, should Christians be playing these games at all. Here, we have to use wisdom, and not make up rules that are in addition to Scripture, because it is dangerous to be more strict than God. After all, most people equate Christianity with legalism already.

That said, as for me, I went camping last weekend, and I do not own a gaming system.

Observer - you wrote "Nobody goes anywhere." How do you know that? Because you are extrapolating from your understanding of evolution? Because you have met many hypocritical religious people? In any case, it needs to be pointed out that your statement is itself essentially religious and needs some reasons behind it. Otherwise, it's just another case of bald assertion.

RE: original post
Thanks for the stimulating critique of these methods. I agree with Griffith's analysis of the rhetorical move you made, but you are certainly right that we must use good means to accomplish our ends. I see the tension between violent video games and a religion in which the most violent thing I need do to someone is "shake the dust off my shoes."

I suppose the broader issue is, should Christians be playing these games at all. Here, we have to use wisdom, and not make up rules that are in addition to Scripture, because it is dangerous to be more strict than God. After all, most people equate Christianity with legalism already.

That said, as for me, I went camping last weekend, and I do not own a gaming system.

Video games seem a rather poor way to attract young folks to church. I mean, don't these kids already have games and places to play them that might be, well, more fun than a church setting? Looks like the sort of gaming-for-Christ groups would attract gamers who are already comfortable with church groups.
I was a boy scout and most troops in our area (despite BSA's Christianist national leadership and our group's scoutmaster being a minister)generally rolled their eyes at church camping trips. I would imagine gamers feeling similarly about gaming for God; the addition of overt evangelism to a hobby seems to diminish the hobby to being some organization's vehicle to control the hobbyist, when the hobby should really be an end in itself.

"Once they come for the games, Gregg Barbour, the youth minister of the church said, they will stay for his Christian message. “We want to make it hard for teenagers to go to hell,” Mr. Barbour wrote..."

Two observations. First, the end justifies the means, the youth minister seems to believe. Not very ethical. Perhaps the teenagers are better off getting their moral instructions elsewhere. Second, teenagers do not go to hell. Nobody goes anywhere.

This man has a powerful life-story that reveals the Truth behind the Everything skit-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty1QYul0cx8

As someone who actually has a clue what halo is about, I'd like to comment that there is some delicious irony of this whole affair. The aliens in Halo, known as the covenant, yeah, they're us. The halo series is actually a criticism of humanities love of holy war. The covenant allows their religion to be highjacked by those who want a holy war, attacking the humans who fight out of self defense, not religious frenzy. So great is the delusion that propels the covenant in their crusade that they attempt to unleash superweapons that would destroy themselves along with humanity and ignore those who warn them of the error of their ways. The real question is not which aliens would Jesus kill but which humans would Jesus kill.

The title of the section is OnFaith; the first line of this post is “I have written before about the importance of making Christianity relevant in the lives of youth, but I advocate doing so with bold, Jesus-centered initiatives. Others have a different idea of what ‘relevant’ means. . .” Jesus-centered initiatives. I believe the whole article and the whole point of the OnFaith website is about God…

Elizabeth Tenety:

Have you seen the "Everything Skit" on youtube?
Its an old YWAM skit using the Lifehouse worship song "Everything" as background music. Its finding new life on the internet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVJqRLU3J0I

The message is deliverance from temptation/bondage: lust/sexual promiscuity, materialism/greed, drugs/alcohol, vanity/anorexia/bulimia, self multilation/self destruction and suicide/death....

Its gaining popularity through youtube and has been recreated by youth groups across America and many other countries. Here's Poland's "everything skit":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT7thaXSNLQ

Please enjoy.

When did this become a discussion on "God?" I was under the impression we were addressing the issue of fellowship. You're getting off-track.

You wrote, "I have written before about the importance of making Christianity relevant in the lives of youth..." Did you leave anything out?

Next time report the whole story. It will both add a degree of honesty and fully educate your readers.

Did you know http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul is a reading of the Bible combined with lessons from Catholic "youth training" that shows the being in the burning bush, the one that wanted the Israelites free but didn't have the power to set them free without help form people, that being was really the biggest Devil of them all, Lucifer.

No one has presented any evidence that the above interpretation of "all" sacred scriptures is false so I'm left to expect it must therefore be so, kinda like can't prove there is no God so there must be one but a lot more evidence in support.

When we pick a new president it's the responsibility of the press to make sure as many voters as possible have all the facts. I'm sure you agree with that.

I wonder if you have the guts to report all the facts but I doubt that you will since they are clearly opposed to your previous biased reporting. I hope I'm wrong, both that the being wasn't really the Devil Lucifer and that you will report all the facts including those that are not to your personal liking. If that being wasn't Lucifer then what was it?

Remember, almighty God does not need help from people to get what IT wants. That's what the word "almighty" means. So you have some choices about that being. It's Devil since it's a supernatural being and it's clearly not almighty, or, the whole story is a hoax. The future of mankind depends on your choice so choose well.

I am sorry John but even the fellowship of playing video games and the fellowship of camping do not resemble each other at all. Camping allows for the appreciation of pristine wilderness and the aesthetic beauty of the natural world, while video games are the antithesis of this experience. Video games are a manmade construct, made for the solitary purpose of emotional self-gratification by granting gamers an engineered sense of accomplishment and success.

I love the outdoors and camp regularly and nowhere do I feel the presence of God more than when I am sharing the natural beauty of the world outdoors with others; in no way has this feeling ever been resembled by the fellowship experienced through pixilated violence.

This violence is relevant to the argument, because fellowship through just anything does not serves the greater purpose of what Jesus taught. I do not think the point here is that gaming does not create fellowship, but is really the best choice to form fellowship within a Church trying to promote the teachings of Jesus? Aren’t there better ways to create this sense of community?

Just curious -- would it be worse if they were playing paint ball or laser tag? Both of these direct the simulated violence against peers.

Would Monopoly, with it's intent to financially bankrupt your opponents, be allowable?

What about Risk and it's goal for world domination?

Elizabeth,

As an undergraduate journalism major, I find myself agreeing with you wholeheartedly. Why investigate an issue we are going to write about, when we already have our mind made up?

/sarcasm

My sense is that your criticism of Kenerly's analogy fails because he was not equating "simulated violence" with the fellowship of a camping trip, but rather the fellowship of "playing Halo."

I think you conveniently substituted simulated violence because it fits your argument well. Unfortunately, the simulated violence bit is a straw man -- easy to knock down, and not relevant to Kenerly's argument.

I think that this is an interesting issue; worthy of discussion, but you would be better served to attend a gaming group and observe the fellowship before you dismiss its value. Online reviews and Halo's website are unlikely to provide relevant data on fellowship in gaming.

I look forward to your response should the Post allow it.