I am pro-life.

I am pro-life.

I am pro-life.

I am pro-life.

I am pro-life.

I am pro-life. Abortions are bad.

I am pro-life. Abortions are bad.

Ms. Tenety,

Despite your young and naively idealistic attempt to find middle ground, you don't come anywhere close. Most of this country is supremely tired of "well-meaning" conservative Christian people, who dictate the lives of others rather than living their own. You may have "felt like chiding [your] fellow Catholics," but until you actually do so, you're no different--and your column will keep ringing hollow.

If anything, all your kind has proved over the past seven years is that the road to Hell truly is paved with good intentions.

It's also very odd, given the example of Christ and many of your own theologians.

Norrie wrote:

"I think that today's anti-abortionists, and those who seek the overturning of Roe vs. Wade by our now Catholic Supreme Court, have no idea of what they're wishing for, and no conception of the human misery that will result if they succeed."
_______________

Why is it that every defender of abortion assumes overturning Roe v. Wade would mean that all abortions are again illegal? It would mean no such thing, if for no other reason than people do remember the bad old times. What an overturned Roe v. Wade would mean is that each state would have to decide the issue separately, as should happen in a federalist form of government. Undoubtedly almost all would opt for abortions with some restrictions, some with no restrictions, and few, if any, might choose to forbid it entirely.

Those who fear the reversal of Roe v Wade seem to have insufficient faith in democracy. They want law by fiat when it suits them, but that's not the way democracy is supposed to work.

Norrie wrote:

"I think that today's anti-abortionists, and those who seek the overturning of Roe vs. Wade by our now Catholic Supreme Court, have no idea of what they're wishing for, and no conception of the human misery that will result if they succeed."
_______________

Why is it that every defender of abortion assumes overturning Roe v. Wade would mean that all abortions are again illegal? It would mean no such thing, if for no other reason than people do remember the bad old times. What an overturned Roe v. Wade would mean is that each state would have to decide the issue separately, as should happen in a federalist form of government. Undoubtedly almost all would opt for abortions with some restrictions, some with no restrictions, and few, if any, might choose to forbid it entirely.

Those who fear the reversal of Roe v Wade seem to have insufficient faith in democracy. They want law by fiat when it suits them, but that's not the way democracy is supposed to work.

Dear Joe G.: Who said abortion is killing? That's your opinion. Other religions teach that killing only occurs after birth. Pre-born fetuses are not viewed as living human beings in many religions, especially in the 1st term, when most abortions occur. What gives you the right to impose your narrow viewpoint of the world on everyone else?

The Constitution does not explicitly outlaw abortion. Abortion existed when the framers wrote the Constitution. If you believe in strict constructionism, why don't you accept the fact that the framers of the Constitution didn't want to outlaw abortion?

It is interesting pro-lifers:

#1. want people punished for making what they call bad choices: If your responsible enough to have sex, then you should be responsible enough to accept the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy! I like the word unwanted--means you'd be having an unwanted child! I wonder how many unwanted children are born into this world? How many are abused, ignored, dumped onto the streets, etc.? Would pro-lifers be ok with a law requiring all the millions of women they claim are having abortions to carry their babies to term and give all the unwanted ones up to the federal and state governments to take care of until they can find an adoption for them? And it would be most interesting to see how the governments would handle all the unadoptable kids? I was raised in a catholic orphanage hell hole and never saw anyone rushing to adopt anyone there. I look at all the orphanages here and the same today. no one wants a child for adoption unless they are a cute 2-month-old, or from somewhere in the far east. For instance, angelina jolie adopts black children, but not from the united states. So, being an unwanted child born in this country sucks!

#2. Why should a woman be forced to contend with a pregnancy with the pot-luck theory that someone might adopt her baby?

#3. Great idea, unwanted babies would make great cannon-fodder for our illegal wars. Hey, we have a soldier shortage. Solution: All women with unwanted pregnancies should do their patriotic duties, carry their babies to term and dump them onto the federal government--right on ole bush's lap. build a huge military school complex specializing in raising soldiers from infancy to fight all our battles. We would only do this for all unadoptable babies. This should creat for us millions of future soldiers. No need for the draft or military enlistments. for all u god-fearing people, god should be happy with this "pro-life" idea! Right! are u happy now? great solution for abortion huh? It will just cost us a few god-zillion dollars in taxes time and energy--right?

Worth it don't ya think?

It is my sincere hope that anti-choice Christians start practicing what they preach and start caring for children AFTER they are born! Or, at the very least, fund pre-natal care for women who do not have health insurance.

Also, end the prohibition against contraception. Contraception stops abortion - especially emergency contraception.

Are "pro-lifers" willing to pay extra taxes to ensure that all women have adequate pre-natal care? Are they willing to fund more child care in schools, so that young women who are pregnant can finish their basic education? Are they willing to pay more taxes to fund care for profoundly handicapped kids that otherwise would have been aborted? If they are, great. But all I hear out of them is "don't have an abortion" and you're on you're own to care for the kid afterwards.

Friends:

I didn't say that the Catholic Church didn't care about lives taken during unjust wars. The Church has said it does many times since the unjust incursion into Iraq began, and I take it's word on it. I also made no statements regarding child molestation.

The question I posed has more to do with the statements of many US Bishops during the last election, i.e. abortion is a greater evil than unjust wars because it is the taking of innocent life. If one ignores the apparent contradiction in this statement, since *all* lives taken unjustly are, by definition, "innocent", and allowing that the Church is unaware that Iraqi infants are among the victims, and even assuming that the Church is making a value judgement based on sheer quantity, it still leaves questions in my mind regarding the theology.

So, again, if it's true that all aborted babies automatically go to heaven, why is abortion a greater evil than an action that unjustly and precipitously ends the lives of adults, before they've had a chance to repent, and which action therefore results in the adults going to hell for all eternity? Is not the disposition of the soul more important than that of the body?

By asking the question, twice, I freely admit my ignorance. If you could enlighten me, instead of pointing out the obvious, I'd appreciate it.

Funny, Friends, how you can call us ignorant fools for bringing up the molestation and child abuse that seems to define your faith nowadays (and by us assuming that all Catholics take part in that), yet you say that all Catholics are Pro-Life from conception to natural death. So you can make an assumption like that simply because you are Catholic? Ignorant fools indeed. Every faith gets it. Kind of like those of your ilk say that atheists are all like Stalin or Hitler. You hit below the belt, we will too.

Roy, NAB and all of the other ignorant fools,

Catholics are not only Pro-Life when it comes to abortion, they are Pro-Life from conception to natural death. They do not ignore the value of every human being be it a fetus, soldier or inmate.
Thank you for being so ignorant as to pointing fingers at the faulty within the church. I am sure that Catholicism is the only faith in which the perversion of a few clouds the goodness of the larger whole. God has nothing to do with molestation, humans do. Free will baby, we all have it.
thanks ms tenety
Great post

Many of these same "Christian" pro-lifers look the other way when their First Commandment is ignored for capital punishment or pre-emptive war. Many oppose contraceptives and are more interested in their self-righteous judgment of others instead of preventing unwanted pregnancy that leads to abortion. There are not pro-life, they are pro their own Christian extremist religious intolerance.

While looking for splinters in other eyes, they ignore the log in their own which includes looking the other way while their clergy molests little boys and denies Christ's table to those they don't accept or agree with politically.

Dear Ms. Tenety:

1) Where were these pro-life protestors when the Catholic Sex Scandal broke? Why didn't we see them protesting on church steps from coast to coast? Do they have no concern for BORN children?
2) Why haven't these pro-lifers demanded that the Catholic Church investigate sexual abuse by priests in third world countries where BORN children have no rights and where the Church has been expanding the fastest?
3) According to the John Jay Reports, almost 40 percent of heterosexual and homosexual Catholic priests are sexually active (by their own admission), and in light of their low conception rates, are using birth control. Why aren't Catholic pro-lifers standing at drug stores harassing Catholic priests who purchase condoms?
4) Like millions of women, I need birth control to treat endometreosis, a debilitating incurable disease that is the number one cause of infertility. We thus preserve our fertility through birth control. How does that make us sinners?
5) Are you aware of the numerous RCC doctrines, such as celibicy, that were established purely for economic reasons? Do you think, by any chance, the RCC condems b.c. because it greatly limits the amount of monies in the baskets every Sunday?
6) 90 percent of American Catholics use b.c. How do you justify these protests against PP which primarily serves to provide gyncological healthcare and b.c.? Is b.c. OK if you're wealthy enough to go to a private ob/gyn?

In short, when will the Catholic laity begin to protest the sins of their religious and their laity and comply with Jesus' order "not point to the speck in your neighbor's eye when you have a log in your own."

Dear Ms. Tenety:

1) Where were these pro-life protestors when the Catholic Sex Scandal broke? Why didn't we see them protesting on church steps from coast to coast? Do they have no concern for BORN children?
2) Why haven't these pro-lifers demanded that the Catholic Church investigate sexual abuse by priests in third world countries where BORN children have no rights and where the Church has been expanding the fastest?
3) According to the John Jay Reports, almost 40 percent of heterosexual and homosexual Catholic priests are sexually active (by their own admission), and in light of their low conception rates, are using birth control. Why aren't Catholic pro-lifers standing at drug stores harassing Catholic priests who purchase condoms?
4) Like millions of women, I need birth control to treat endometreosis, a debilitating incurable disease that is the number one cause of infertility. We thus preserve our fertility through birth control. How does that make us sinners?
5) Are you aware of the numerous RCC doctrines, such as celibicy, that were established purely for economic reasons? Do you think, by any chance, the RCC condems b.c. because it greatly limits the amount of monies in the baskets every Sunday?
6) 90 percent of American Catholics use b.c. How do you justify these protests against PP which primarily serves to provide gyncological healthcare and b.c.? Is b.c. OK if you're wealthy enough to go to a private ob/gyn?

In short, when will the Catholic laity begin to protest the sins of their religious and their laity and comply with Jesus' order "not point to the speck in your neighbor's eye when you have a log in your own."

To Catholics:

Which is the greater evil? A. Causing the death of an innocent fetus who goes directly to heaven? B. Causing the death of an unrepentant, non-combatant Iraqi adult who goes directly to hell?

It never really was about abortion. It's about control.

If you really wanted to reduce abortion, you'd be out there pushing condoms and pushing for quality sex education instead of that joke abstinence.

But in the end, it's really about converting people to christiantiy and accepting "jesus" as your savior.

I like judiasm, they don't push there religion on anyone. They just live there lives and people come to judiasm. If your righteous and moral, then people will come to your side overtime.

Anonymous said:

"Can't you just live and let live."

We were discussing abortion. And that's just what we were advocating.

Bottom line, Ann Coulter sums it up best. Right wingers want to convert us all to their faith.

They can't win the argument, so they'll just "fix" it by changing the laws.

Religion is such a joke. Where was your Catholic god when your preists were raping and molesting those kids. Your Bishops were the pimps, just passing the preist from church to church so they had a fresh crop. That's reality.

The catholic religion is about power and control. You start brainwashing your kids as early as possible. Best way is through fear, "You will Burn in the fires of hell" That'll scare a kid into doing anything.

Oh yeah please be sure to put your 10% into the till before you leave, otherwise you will burn in hell.

And don't forget to make the proper donation after death, don't want to end up in pergatory. That's right, you've been a good little christian your whole life, now it's time to pony up the $$$$'s so you can get into heaven.

Can't you just live and let live.

While we're talking about how pro-lifers want to "control" what people do, let's acknowledge that killing requires a good dose of "controlling" someone.

And if we're going to talk about the enlightened countries overseas, might be interesting to note that most European countries have stricter abortion laws than we do.

Approx. 1 mil abortions per year in the US. 44 mil since Roe v. Wade.

Nothing like a constitutional right that allows one the right to kill another.

Any of you religious zealots read any books other then the bible, such as "Freakonomics." In it, the author shows that through the statistics, the massive drop of in crime that has occurred during the last two decades, can be directly attributed to Roe. v wade. That the easy availability of abortions to those most in need, single woman, low income, poor background, un-educated. Has led to the crime drop. Think how many murders, rapes, crimes, etc... have been avoided.

In the end, your fried Ann Coulter sums it up. The goal of the church is to convert everyone to "christianity" and YOUR way of thinking. How about live and let live.

Since they are losing the overall argument, they figure that changing the laws is the best way to "win". They can't win the argument, so we'll just force people by changing the laws.

The religious right is all about power and control. You must live your life their way or you will "burn in the fires of hell." It really makes me laugh. Best way to brainwash a kid is through fear.

Where was your "God" when your priests were raping and sexually abusing kids and your bishops were just passing them around from Church to CHurch. Thus to ensure they could inflict the most amount of pain on the most amount of people. THAT'S YOUR RELIGION, DON'T EVER FORGET!!!!!

Oh yeah, please throw 10% into the till or you'll burn forever in hell!!!!! And don't forget to make a nice donation after your death or you'll be stuck in Pergatory. That's right, you live your life like a good Christian, then have to Pay $$$ to get into heaven.

What an absolute joke!

Any of you religious zealots read any books other then the bible, such as "Freakonomics." In it, the author shows that through the statistics, the massive drop of in crime that has occurred during the last two decades, can be directly attributed to Roe. v wade. That the easy availability of abortions to those most in need, single woman, low income, poor background, un-educated. Has led to the crime drop. Think how many murders, rapes, etc... have been avoided.

In the end, your fried Ann Coulter sums it up. The goal of the church is to convert everyone to "christianity" and their way of thinking.

Since they are losing the overall argument, they figure that changing the laws is the best way to "win". They can't win the argument, so we'll just force people by changing the laws.

The religious right is all about power and control. You must live your life their way or you will "burn in the fires of hell." It really makes me laugh. Best way to brainwash a kid is through fear.

Where was your "God" when your priests were raping and sexually abusing kids and your bishops were just passing them around from Church to CHurch. Thus to ensure they could inflict the most amount of pain on the most amount of people. THAT'S YOUR RELIGION, DON'T EVER FORGET!!!!!

Oh yeah, please throw 10% into the till or you'll burn forever in hell!!!!! And don't forget to make a nice donation after your death or you'll be stuck in Pergatory. That's right, you live your life like a good Christian, then have to Pay $$$ to get into heaven.

What an absolute joke!

Any of you religious zealots read any books other then the bible, such as "Freakonomics." In it, the author shows that through the statistics, the massive drop of in crime that has occurred during the last two decades, can be directly attributed to Roe. v wade. That the easy availability of abortions to those most in need, single woman, low income, poor background, un-educated. Has led to the crime drop. Think how many murders, rapes, etc... have been avoided.

In the end, your fried Ann Coulter sums it up. The goal of the church is to convert everyone to "christianity" and their way of thinking.

Since they are losing the overall argument, they figure that changing the laws is the best way to "win". They can't win the argument, so we'll just force people by changing the laws.

The religious right is all about power and control. You must live your life their way or you will "burn in the fires of hell." It really makes me laugh. Best way to brainwash a kid is through fear.

Where was your "God" when your priests were raping and sexually abusing kids and your bishops were just passing them around from Church to CHurch. Thus to ensure they could inflict the most amount of pain on the most amount of people. THAT'S YOUR RELIGION, DON'T EVER FORGET!!!!!

Oh yeah, please throw 10% into the till or you'll burn forever in hell!!!!! And don't forget to make a nice donation after your death or you'll be stuck in Pergatory. That's right, you live your life like a good Christian, then have to Pay $$$ to get into heaven.

What an absolute joke!

Thank you, Mark in Irvine. I could not have said it better.

This is one of many On Faith articles I've read. As religion is a contentious subject, it is of no surprise that it receives the most comments.

As I skim the hundreds of comments each day/week, I am filled with sadness at the divisive nature of religion.

When a person feels passionate about a subject, I suppose they feel compelled to share, to influence.

Yet, sometimes, this zealousness is blinding.

The truth is, none of us really understand, unless we've walked a mile in their shoes.

It's easy to judge. It's easy to spout off our opinion.

What is hard is to listen, to have empathy, and to reach out with love and understanding in a non-judgemental way.

"I strongly suspect that non-procreative sex is a big part of the abortion issue, not necessarily for Catholics but certainly for the vocal minority of Biblical literalists."

BINGO! If this country were really serious about reducing the incidence of abortion, birth control information and tools would be available without question in every school in the land, no questions asked. It is the hidden agenda of the religious right to "punish" sexually active people who become pregnant with the "consequences" of their "sin" that prevents universal adoption of the only sensible approach to contraception: wholly unrestricted access. Countries without restrictions on abortion or contraception have the lowest rates of abortion in the world. The phony moralizing of the most vocal members of the anti-abortion crowd is responsible for the high numbers of abortions in this country. If they were serious about saving unborn lives, they would embrace the available measures that would help people avoid unwanted conception. It's not just the decision of the participants in the sex to use or not use contraception that is responsible for unwanted pregnancies: it is the pervasive culture of shame, guilt and squeamishness about matters sexual in this country that trains its citizens not to incorporate contraception into the routine of daily life. This is religious hypocrisy at its finest.

It is sad when people say things like "there is no legitimate, reasonable non-religously-based argument against abortion." A person who says this is saying that without the fear of God people would not do right, or that people who don't believe in God are incapable of love. Do you say these things because you would not do moral acts if you didn't fear God? I doubt it.

I am an atheist. I love my children and I love your children, too. Abortion fills me with grief for the child and for the mother. I do not believe in making it illegal because it is sometimes the least horrible of several impossible choices.

So: I love this column. Hate abortion? Foster a pregnant teenager. Hate abortion? Stop judging unwed mothers. Hate abortion? Teach your boys to walk a mile in another's shoes. In a compassionate society, there would be few reasons to ever end a pregnancy.

ToGo 1960: if there is no punishment, there is no crime. if you don't put the woman in jail, it's legal. are you suggesting a $20 civil citation? a misdemeanor that can't be used to deny employment later, or for any other purpose? then it's legal. no one is talking about encouraging or promiting abortion (at least no one I am listening to) just leaving it on the table for those who cannot find any other path. Roe does not create a right to an abortion, which is why there is no reason the government has to pay for it, nor any private insurer. as noted by others, overturning Roe would accomplish nothing except getting the issue off the federal table (that would be amazingly good) and back to the states, where the issue would not generate the publicity for the zealots that they get now. It's been said that Roe was the worst thing that could happen to liberals and pro choice advocates because it created a federal issue for national elections that would otherwise not have existed and we might not have ever had a moral majority or religious right that mattered.

Some people's religions or religious convictions do not hold abortion to be a sin. By trying to impose your values on them, you are not respecting their religous freedoms.

The Supreme Court ruled that abortion is legal. Why don't you respect your fellow Americans' right to have an abortion? Is you first allegiance to the United States or to the Catholic Church?

Should the Catholic Church be tax-exempt in the United States if it does not respect the law of the land?

Many women like the protesters you saw in Aurora march right into the clincs and have abortions. Due to patient privacy laws, the clinics cannot "out" them. The next week they are back out on the sidewalk harassing patients who want to exercise their legal right.

Hypocrites to the nth degree!!!!!!!!!

Wiccan: I'm usually on the same page about limiting government power. In fact, I'm not sure I agree that drug use or prostitution should be treated as crimes, though I understand at least some of why they are.

Human life is a more (the most) fundamental matter, and I long for us to be consistent about it.

Our government protects my life by statute. Each unborn child is more worthy and needful of that protection than I.

I find Pro-Lifers inconsistent.

On one hand they Pro-Lifers say protect life, but yet they do not protect children's lives after they are born unwanted.

Bad orphanages, bad foster care in America does not reflect a consistent attitude about children's concerns or chilkdren's lives.

I belive most Pro-Lifers are into the pro-life position, because it is against minorities. Easy form of racism against the poor and the indegent.

I have yet to meet a pro-lifer that is prepared to raise a child from infancy to death, something most unwanted children never experience, yert are forced i nto a world unwanted.

Perhaps the Pro-Lifers can establish a system to care for all the unwanted children that grow up without a family for their entire life, not just the first eighteen years.

Foster care lasts only eighteen years. After age eighteen foster children are thrust into the streets as homeless and indegent adults.

America needs to stop giving lip service to children's rights and actualy respect the children that are here due to their laws of abortion rights.

What about all the unwanted children in America today?

I speak from experience!

Patrick

I find Pro-Lifers inconsistent.

On one hand they Pro-Lifers say protect life, but yet they do not protect children's lives after they are born unwanted.

Bad orphanages, bad foster care in America does not reflect a consistent attitude about children's concerns or chilkdren's lives.

I belive most Pro-Lifers are into the pro-life position, because it is against minorities. Easy form of racism against the poor and the indegent.

I have yet to meet a pro-lifer that is prepared to raise a child from infancy to death, something most unwanted children never experience, yert are forced i nto a world unwanted.

Perhaps the Pro-Lifers can establish a system to care for all the unwanted children that grow up without a family for their entire life, not just the first eighteen years.

Foster care lasts only eighteen years. After age eighteen foster children are thrust into the streets as homeless and indegent adults.

America needs to stop giving lip service to children's rights and actualy respect the children that are here due to their laws of abortion rights.

What about all the unwanted children in America today?

I speak from experience!

Patrick

C.J.'s Mom-

If the "pro-life/anti-choice" people adopted the attitude shown in your last paragraph, I'd be willing to support them. Too often it is not about helping someone in crisis, but more about proving how moral they are. I admire you, ma'am. Blessed Be.

A little over three years ago, I faced an unplanned pregnancy. I went to Planned Parenthood to confirm the pregnancy and made plans for an abortion. I was asked during the mandatory counseling session if I was comfortable with the decision I was making, and at the time I said "yes," but also mentioned that I had never expected to be in that situation, and that I would have made another choice if I thought it was possible. The PP counselor then made an offhand comment that the people on the pro - life side typically give their opinions, but not much practical help to a woman in my situation.

In Virginia, there is a mandatory waiting period between the initital counseling session and the actual abortion...so I went home that night, and called a friend who worked at Capitol Hill Crisis Pregnancy Center. My friend is not Catholic, so I got no rosaies chanted at me. She did not tell me lies about fetal development (I was aware of articles written by a group of journalists that had posed as potential clients in Crisis Pregnancy Centers, only to be given misinformation about fetal development, morbidity rates attributable to abortion, and the like). We had a rational discussion about options. I learned about the various resources in my community to help me choose to carry this pregnancy to term, and to parent, if I so choose. I never got judgement or a harangue.

I ultimately decided to cancel the abortion appointment, and carry the child to term. Later in the pregnancy, after I'd assessed my financial situation and worked out a reasonable plan for child care, I decided to parent the child. Here I am, three years later, the mother of a charming two year old son, and now married with a second child on the way. I never used government programs (e.g., WIC, welfare, Medicaid, etc.), and I never used any material support from a church or pro-life organization. What I needed at that time was a calm voice letting me know what supports were out there in the event that I did not choose abortion. I felt then, and still strongly do now, that often abortion is not so much a choice for a young womn, but it is seen as the the only, desperate option. If the public dialogue on abortion were not so polarized in this country, then maybe women in a crisis situation could get the information they need to make a decision that indeed feels like a "choice".

So why recount this story here? Because Elizabeth is right - at a moment in a woman's life when everything feels out of uncontrol and untrustworthy (the birth control has failed, and your boyfriend of a year decides that's the time to say he's just not that into you ), the last thing she needs is lies from either side. She doesn't need religious or poltical platitudes or dehumanizing epithets hurled her way. She needs information and honesty.

Because of my own experience, I now consider myself pro-life, but that does not mean I have joined or support any organization that would harass women entering a clinic or health care providers that work in one. I strive to be like my friend, willing to offer a listening ear, respect, truth, and real material help if necessary to enable a woman who wants to choose life to actually do so.

ToGo1960-

"Wiccan: You didn't ask me, but I don't believe a woman who has a (hypothetical, future) illegal abortion should receive criminal punishment."

If a police officer sees a drug deal being made, he will arrest both the seller and the buyer. If he see a prostitute sucessfully soliciting a john, he will arrest both the seller and the buyer. Why is the case of illegal abortion different?

"But neither do I believe our society should encourage and help abort children."

I can respect that. But my major objection to outlawing abortion is that if you give the government the right to forbid abortions, you have given them the right to compel abortions. I don't believe that the government should have either right.

Ceedant,

I hope the judgment you felt was imputed rather than expressed to you. Most of the pro-life people I know have a heartfelt burden of compassion for those who are facing crisis pregnancies, but I'm sure there are some who extend their mission to the point of speaking harsh words of judgment to an already tortured mother.

It is precisely because some of us have walked in your shoes that we do everything we can to help at the same time we oppose abortion. 25 years ago, shortly after resuming a relationship with my girlfriend, I learned she'd conceived another man's child. He gave her some money for an abortion, but we chose instead to marry, and I accepted and helped raise that daughter as my own. We've never regretted it.

I share that only to address the notion that pro-lifers could never understand a given set of desperate circumstances. A true Christian never believes themselves superior to another person, no matter what they may have done. And there is a strong ministry within the Church to reach out to those who have had abortions without casting judgment on them.

Swheelock: I am pro-everyone's-life.

Mybodynotyours: An acorn is an oak seed. It becomes an oak seedling, and grows into an oak tree. At any point, its owner may kill it. At what point does the allegedly not-a-person in the womb, which you feel free to kill, become a person whom you may not, and why? Consider when answering: you may not kill the egg of an endangered bird.

Wiccan: You didn't ask me, but I don't believe a woman who has a (hypothetical, future) illegal abortion should receive criminal punishment. But neither do I believe our society should encourage and help abort children.

The reality is that an unwanted pregnancy is an unwanted pregnancy whatever one's pro life, or pro choice position is...

Read stories of pro-life people who chose abortion, when the unwanted pregancy came knocking at THEIR personal door...

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml

BTW, there are Catholics who do support choice...

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/

Bottom line is that it is all personal philosophy. I think of pregnancy as a biological process - there's nothing "sacred" about it. If you believe differently, have at it. Just don't impose your belief system on me.

The arrogance of those who would require women to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, and go through the risk of childbirth, only to keep an unwanted child, or struggle to raise a child she cannot care for properly, or give it away, is eggregious.

These people are control freaks. I can tell you that I did NOT suffer when I had an abortion, and 30 years later it was one of the BEST decisions I have ever made. Other women do NOT speak for me or the many millions of women who do have abortions each and every year, and always will do so until there's 100% sure ways to prevent accidental pregancies, or medical issues for the mother or fetus/child (whatever your belief system).

Elizabeth,
I was touched by your desire to reach across the divide. When birth control failed me (back in the bad old days before we were told that antibiotics can reduce efficacy) I made the heartbreaking choice to have an abortion. When I walked into the clinic, weeping inside, there were protesters. I remember thinking how far removed their world was from mine. I couldn't imagine what it must be like to have enough resources and support to not have to have an abortion...or what it was like to have enough time to protest the pain and suffering of others. I had all I could do to keep the rent paid and family together. I was working two full-time jobs while raising my son and dealing with my husband's illness. I knew in my heart, you'd never walked in my shoes and that you were there to judge me, not help me. The wedge between me and the Catholic faith could not be driven deeper.

"uh glido, if your christian hon, a commandment says though shalt not kill! period."

Which commandment?

The Jewish/Christian one is "Thou shalt not MURDER."

Hebrew makes the same distinction between murder and kill as English.

Joe G.: Isn't it kind of arrogant to say that we shouldn't look to Europe for anything, especially when things such as healthcare and sex education are so much better than ours?

And what's so bad about having a downturn in the population? Isn't it kind of necessary in order to stem the tide of producing and consuming ourselves into oblivion?

What most so-called "pro-lifers" are is not pro-life, but pro-pushing people around. They want to tell people what is moral, or what they can or can't do, and don't care a whit about what the needs of those people are. Instead of standing in front of abortion clinics screaming at women, these people should be finding ways to prevent these women from getting pregnant in the first place, or giving these women a viable option for carrying their babies to term.

What pro-lifers should concern themselves with is reducing the number of abortions, not by law, but by reducing the need for them, either through better contraception use or better economic circumstances. They should stop kidding themselves about so-called "pro-life" politicians, who pay lip service to overturning Roe v. Wade, when in fact, that's exactly the last thing they want to have happen. Why? Because, if it does, then they'll be forced to put their money where their mouths are, and call for bans on abortion, which most voters oppose.

What most so-called "pro-lifers" are is not pro-life, but pro-pushing people around. They want to tell people what is moral, or what they can or can't do, and don't care a whit about what the needs of those people are. Instead of standing in front of abortion clinics screaming at women, these people should be finding ways to prevent these women from getting pregnant in the first place, or giving these women a viable option for carrying their babies to term.

What pro-lifers should concern themselves with is reducing the number of abortions, not by law, but by reducing the need for them, either through better contraception use or better economic circumstances. They should stop kidding themselves about so-called "pro-life" politicians, who pay lip service to overturning Roe v. Wade, when in fact, that's exactly the last thing they want to have happen. Why? Because, if it does, then they'll be forced to put their money where their mouths are, and call for bans on abortion, which most voters oppose.

If I crush an acorn, have I cut down a mighty oak? No, I've crushed an acorn. A fetus is not a baby. It's a fetus. A HUGE difference

If I crush an acorn, have I cut down a mighty oak? No, I've crushed an acorn. A fetus is not a baby. It's a fetus. A HUGE difference

If I crush an acorn, have I cut down a mighty oak? No, I've crushed an acorn. A fetus is not a baby. It's a fetus. A HUGE difference

I really have only one question for "Pro-Lifers": Pro- Whose life?

"Posted on November 2, 2007 12:40

Natural Rights:

When it is, yes, there will be those who break the law. Just as there are people today who murder, molest, rape, steal and destroy. We have to have laws in place to protect our citizens and insure civil society. A society that is full of sinners should not dismantle its laws just because those sinners will break them."

If Roe vs Wade is repealed, what do you recommend be the punishment for women who have or seek abortions?

Excellent column. I am an evangelical, not a Catholic, so I must say I agree however that there is a serious disconnect between anti-birth controla and pro-life.

Having said that, I think the author makes a needed point. Our country was founded on the principles of natural rights. In fact, the very purpose of the Dec of Ind was to 'pursue life'. I believe in a pro-life society yes because I am a Christian, but also because I understand that our Constitution grants us the right to pursue life. How can we excercise that when we can legally never even have the chance?

Since life is a right that is easily found in several parts of the Constitution, Roe v. Wade is bad law. Period. It will be overturned.

When it is, yes, there will be those who break the law. Just as there are people today who murder, molest, rape, steal and destroy. We have to have laws in place to protect our citizens and insure civil society. A society that is full of sinners should not dismantle its laws just because those sinners will break them.

Not sure why we'd look to Europe for almost anything at this point. Sure, their abortion rate is lower, and their birth rates are, too -- must lower than replenishment rates.

A better model would be to teach our youth that sex is best within marriage, and that destroying offspring is an odd vision of freedom.

Success rates with contraception have always depended upon age, education, and type of relationship (for instance, college educated 30 year olds in committed relationships have much higher success rates than teenage girls).

Most would not rationally believe that we're going to "educate" 15 year olds with a few hours of safe driver training and then provide them with the means to drive a lot more, and then hope that injury rates go down.

Instead of encouraging young girls to contracept and get their groove on, we should educate about a different ethic of sex.

This one obviously ain't working.

Elizabeth,

I've never commented on your blog before, so let me begin by commending you for earnestly seeking the Truth, and for looking beyond yourself in a challenging way. I believe God always honors that.

If we really apply the seamless garment concept, we understand that the primary purpose of our faith is not social justice or self-improvement. God is so wondrous (sorry for the lame adjective; all of creation is insufficient to convey God's greatness!) that knowing God (in the full, biblical, intimate relationship sense of the verb) is its own end. However, a hunger for social justice naturally rises up out of an authentic faith, as does personal growth.

Of course, as you point out, faith is not the only source for social consciousness and personal growth. No one I know dismisses the assistance of those who seek to help us on an issue simply because they may not share our faith. Their efforts, too, are welcome and important, and God works through all of us. But suggesting that faithful pro-life people shouldn't apply the power of prayer at the front lines of this battle (and though I use a warlike analogy, this is a battle of love, a battle against an evil, and by no means a battle against people - neither those choosing abortion nor those who may profit from it - per St. Paul) is like suggesting that we should perform vigorous exercise without stoking the body with food.

Nor is prayer an impractical tactic. Having been involved with groups praying outside of our local abortion center, there have been a number of times when the mother or father of an unborn child has approached us and told us that it was our prayerful, peaceful presence there which helped them seek a better answer than to end their baby's life. We're not there screaming slogans or casting condemnation. We're asking for a help greater than any we might bring to bear on our own. We can then direct these (usually young) parents to the practical resources they need (in our case, right across the street), many of which are available through the efforts of the same people who stand and pray.

I'm concerned by your insistence that addressing the abortion issue is more important than witnessing the love of Christ. Yes, our efforts must be tangible and practical; we must address the needs of these parents in crisis. But we must never swallow the worldly perspective that any other aim is what really matters. Finding Jesus' love is precisely the point! Every effort we make is rooted in that or is misdirected. Yes, "When necessary, use words," and sometimes we insist on words when we should be working. But ALWAYS "Preach the Gospel," and too often we're too worried about coming across as some sort of religious nutcase in the process.

You write:

“What does a pregnant young woman need from the community? Condescending prayers from a distance? White crosses stuck into a patch of land? More judgment [real or perceived] from a religious community of which she is likely not a part, one that she probably does not understand? “

Frankly, the most important thing the community could have given her is help to NOT GET PREGNANT IN THE FIRST PLACE. How about access to reliable birth control, and education in how and when to use it? Even though abortion is widely available in Northern Europe, their abortion rate is FAR lower than ours, because birth control and sex education are also widely available.

If you are honest about wanting to reduce the number of abortions in this country, then look at the only proven method of doing that: The Northern Europe model.

Actually, for most of its history, the Catholic Church did NOT consider a first trimester abortion to be murder. See http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/abortion.html

Elizabeth,

I've never commented on your blog before, so let me begin by commending you for earnestly seeking the Truth, and for looking beyond yourself in a challenging way. I believe God always honors that.

If we really apply the seamless garment concept, we understand that the primary purpose of our faith is not social justice or self-improvement. God is so wondrous (sorry for the lame adjective; all of creation is insufficient to convey God's greatness!) that knowing God (in the full, biblical, intimate relationship sense of the verb) is its own end. However, a hunger for social justice naturally rises up out of an authentic faith, as does personal growth.

Of course, as you point out, faith is not the only source for social consciousness and personal growth. No one I know dismisses the assistance of those who seek to help us on an issue simply because they may not share our faith. Their efforts, too, are welcome and important, and God works through all of us. But suggesting that faithful pro-life people shouldn't apply the power of prayer at the front lines of this battle (and though I use a warlike analogy, this is a battle of love, a battle against an evil, and by no means a battle against people - neither those choosing abortion nor those who may profit from it - per St. Paul) is like suggesting that we should perform vigorous exercise without stoking the body with food.

Nor is prayer an impractical tactic. Having been involved with groups praying outside of our local abortion center, there have been a number of times when the mother or father of an unborn child has approached us and told us that it was our prayerful, peaceful presence there which helped them seek a better answer than to end their baby's life. We're not there screaming slogans or casting condemnation. We're asking for a help greater than any we might bring to bear on our own. We can then direct these (usually young) parents to the practical resources they need (in our case, right across the street), many of which are available through the efforts of the same people who stand and pray.

I'm concerned by your insistence that addressing the abortion issue is more important than witnessing the love of Christ. Yes, our efforts must be tangible and practical; we must address the needs of these parents in crisis. But we must never swallow the worldly perspective that any other aim is what really matters. Finding Jesus' love is precisely the point! Every effort we make is rooted in that or is misdirected. Yes, "When necessary, use words," and sometimes we insist on words when we should be working. But ALWAYS "Preach the Gospel," and too often we're too worried about coming across as some sort of religious nutcase in the process.

You write:

“What does a pregnant young woman need from the community? Condescending prayers from a distance? White crosses stuck into a patch of land? More judgment [real or perceived] from a religious community of which she is likely not a part, one that she probably does not understand? “

Frankly, the most important thing the community could have given her is help to NOT GET PREGNANT IN THE FIRST PLACE. How about access to reliable birth control, and education in how and when to use it? Even though abortion is widely available in Northern Europe, their abortion rate is FAR lower than ours, because birth control and sex education are also widely available.

If you are honest about wanting to reduce the number of abortions in this country, then look at the only proven method of doing that: The Northern Europe model.

Actually, for most of its history, the Catholic Church did NOT consider a first trimester abortion to be murder. See http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/abortion.html

The "just don't have sex" answer to this question is far to simplistic a response. Questions about birth control and abortion are also very relevant for married people and adults -- Catholic and non-Catholic. In 3 and 1/2 years of marriage my Catholic mother had three children. After the third, with the stress of raising and providing for those three children, my mother went to her priest, concerned that another child would put her and my father over the edge. Luckily, her priest gave her a common sense reply -- that the goal is perfection (i.e., not using birth control) and that we can't always achieve it. I'm thankful that priest saw a way to work within the church to protect my family and I'm sorry the church itself hasn't done the same for it's flock as a whole. It's also interesting to me that the conversation between my mother and her priest happened 40 years ago and since then, although the church's position hasn't changed, the majority of Catholics have chosen to ignore this church rule or leave the church. To be pro-life can't simply only be about one kind of life -- in this case whatever potential children my family would have had vs. the lives of the ones that were already here on this earth. And simplistic "don't do it" responses are not s