Does CCNL1 obfuscate, you ask? Does he lie, you ask?

Scroll down.

Hmmm, a typical "Farnazing" response to obfuscate her problems with being honest.

CCNL1, the Catholic Atheist writes of Hillel:

"Hmmm, one assumes "Crossanization" of Hillel the Elder would result in the following:'

Hillel was not the Jewish equivalent of Jesus, you groan. Is he really this moronic, you ask?

Yes, bigoted, and uncooperative, as well.

You already know this?! Of course. But, for a reminder, read David Waters' post instructing him to stop bearing false witness.

That is, after he impersonated everyone from Susan Jacoby to all the bloggers in his lists.

I have repeatedly denied his accusations, but he persists nonetheless.

Psychopathic liar, you ask?

Homophobe, antisemite, racist, you ask?

Note: Farnaz has not denied that Observer12, Observer31, Yael1, ivri5678, Billy8, nadinebatra, stadtbear, Spark1, Shark2, Spidermean3, DOUG_WHITE, FTH123 MANSOUR112, hsnkhwj are her "friends".)

There have been however the following comments made by Farnaz (and some of her "friends") and other commentators (who were not subjected to EIT):

See: kjohnson3 | February 17, 2009 10:29 AM "

Farnaz's posts of Feb 10, 3:18 a.m

and Feb. 16, 9:52 a.m.

See also comments posted by: themoderate | February 11, 2009
9:42 PM

See also comments posted by: Mary_Cunningham | January 13, 2009 7:22 AM

Google the names and times to see the particular commentaries.

CCNL1, the Catholic Atheist writes of Hillel:

"Hmmm, one assumes "Crossanization" of Hillel the Elder would result in the following:'

Hillel was not the Jewish equivalent of Jesus, you groan. Is he really this moronic, you ask?

Yes, dishonest, bigoted, and uncooperative, as well.

You already know this?! Of course. But, for a reminder, read David Waters' post instructing him to stop bearing false witness.

Add dishonest to the list!

Now we need to "Crossanize" Farnaz and all of her "friends" (fortunately Professor Crossan's techniques do not require EIT).

Farnaz has friends you ask??

Of course, these and then some:

Observer12, Observer31, Yael1, ivri5678, Billy8, nadinebatra, stadtbear, Spark1, Shark2, Spidermean3, DOUG_WHITE, FTH123 MANSOUR112, hsnkhwj ?

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

Jesus either walked this planet as a human being or He didn't, no matter what anyone says.

If Jesus walked this planet and is True Man and True God and He Is, it doesn't matter what anyone says.

If Jesus is God-Incarnate and He Is and if God Is a Trinity and God Is and if God is a Being of Pure Love and God Is, then all of the discussion one way or the another is moot.

Believing in God is a gift from God but it is not a ticket to the "good place", so to speak.

As I have said: God has had His Plan since before creation and His Plan will come to Fruition, the night of the sixth day is coming but the dawning of the seventh day will arrive in God's Time, the new heavens and the new earth.

As I have also said: God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Will the bloggers please stay with the subject of this article--the enhanced interrogation technique. Don't change the subject.

CCNL1, the Catholic Atheist writes of Hillel:

"Hmmm, one assumes "Crossanization" of Hillel the Elder would result in the following:'

Hillel was not the Jewish equivalent of Jesus. Are you really this moronic?

Like most, if not all, Jews, I am indifferent as to whether or not the Christians' Jesus Christ existed, so long as the Christians do not impose their views on Jews, and, in the process, deny Jews their own subjectivity, self-understanding.

Until CCNL1, the Catholic Atheist, is able refrain from this behavior, bibliographies on the nonexistence of Christ will be posted.

For numerous articles on "Jesus, the imaginary friend," see this web site.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/imagine.html

The above is the first of many additions to the bibliography posted below.

Scroll down for the very brief bibliography on the non-existence of the historical Jesus, if interested: "Recent Scholarship Challenging the Historical Jesus (in Islam = Isa)"

It is intended for the edification, education, and debriefing of CCNL1, the Catholic Atheist.

And example from Faith Futures' reviews that includes Professor Lüdemann's comments:

http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb007.html

Hmmm, one assumes "Crossanization" of Hillel the Elder would result in the following:

:Hillel the Myth:

Hillel the Myth: Man of the Indefinite Past

Hillel the Hellenistic Hero

Hillel the Revolutionary

Hillel the Wisdom Sage

Hillel the Man of the Spirit

Hillel the Prophet of Social Change

Hillel the Apocalyptic Prophet

Hillel the Savior

Note: Most if not all of the previous references posted by the Jewish atheist, Farnaz, about the existence/non-existence of Jesus, the simple preacher man, can be found in the books of Professor Crossan and the other On Faith panelists who also are NT exegetes.

Ludemann's conclusions can also be found in many of the Faithfutures' reviews of various NT passages.

Hello, Norrie,

You're correct, of course. The Pauline origins of Christianity have long been given credibility. However, there are other theories, as indicated in the bibliography.

As for yours truly, I'm indifferent. I do not care what Christians believe. I simply wish for Christians to leave Jews and Judaism alone.

Regards,
Farnaz

More on Hillel:

It would be difficult to say which of the contributions ascribed to Hillel is/are most significant to Judaism, but arguably the seven principles for interpreting Torah rank very high.

These seven principles enabled the development of R. Ismael's thirteen principles, which remain of the utmost importance to Judaism.

As the narrative of Moses was at pains to demonstrate, human cannot read that which is inscribed in stone since s/he has much to do before s/he can distinguish the medium from the message. CCNL1 is the embodiment of this failing.

A word on the legends surrounding Hillel--indeed, they abound! Many of them are very beautiful bright, but they are theologically insignificant.

In fact, Hillel's material existence is unimportant. Judaism takes anti-idolatry as its starting point. Hence, what is important are the decisions, midrashes attributed to Hillel, in other words, the thought. The same goes for all the Tannaim. All those who figure in Judaic thought are or were Sons or Daughters of Human.

No idols.

Farnaz1Mansouri1,

"Gerd Lüdemann, 1998, The Great Deception: And What Jesus Really Said and Did. 2002, Paul: The Founder of Christianity. 2004, The Resurrection Of Christ: A Historical Inquiry. After 25 years of study German professor concluded Paul, not Jesus, started Christianity."

No kidding, Farnaz,

If he'd asked, I could have saved Professor Ludemann a quarter century of study:

Fifty-seven years ago my high school English teacher told our class the same thing about Paul and Jesus.

Regards.

Like most, if not all, Jews, I am indifferent as to whether or not the Christians' Jesus Christ existed, so long as the Christians do not impose their views on Jews, and, in the process, deny Jews their own subjectivity, self-understanding.

Until CCNL1 is able refrain from this behavior, bibliographies on the nonexistence of Christ will be posted.

For numerous articles on "Jesus, the imaginary friend," see this web site.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/imagine.html

The above is the first of many additions to the bibliography posted below.

Scroll down for the very brief bibliography on the non-existence of the historical Jesus, if interested: "Recent Scholarship Challenging the Historical Jesus (in Islam = Isa)"

It is intended for the edification, education, and debriefing of CCNL1.

See the following for more information about Jewish legends like the life surrounding Hillel the Elder at:

1) The Hebrew folktale By Eli Yassif, Jacqueline S. Teitelbaum

2) http://www.maqom.com/journal/paper19.pdf

Maybe Farnaz can tell us about other legends concerning Hillel the Elder or maybe said legends concerning the "great Babs" since she appears to know a lot about both????

Scroll down for a bibliography on the non-existence of the historical Jesus, if interested: "Recent Scholarship Challenging the Historical Jesus (in Islam = Isa)"

It is intended for the edification, education, and debriefing of CCNL1.

Like most, if not all, Jews, I am indifferent as to whether or not the Christians' Jesus Christ existed, so long as the Christians do not impose their views on Jews, and, in the process, deny Jews their own subjectivity, self-understanding.

Until CCNL1 is able refrain from this behavior, bibliographies on the nonexistence of Christ will be posted.

Description of the historical Jesus as per many contemporary NT exegetes:

(See the listing of the books written by these exegetes at)
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

Note that four of these NT exegetes are members of the On Faith panel--

:Jesus the Myth: Heavenly Christ
Earl Doherty
Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy

Jesus the Myth: Man of the Indefinite Past
Alvar Ellegård
G. A. Wells

Jesus the Hellenistic Hero
Gregory Riley

Jesus the Revolutionary
Robert Eisenman

Jesus the Wisdom Sage
John Dominic Crossan
Robert Funk
Burton Mack
Stephen J. Patterson

Jesus the Man of the Spirit
Marcus Borg
Stevan Davies
Geza Vermes

Jesus the Prophet of Social Change
Richard Horsley
Hyam Maccoby
Gerd Theissen

Jesus the Apocalyptic Prophet
Bart Ehrman
Paula Fredriksen
Gerd Lüdemann
John P. Meier
E. P. Sanders

Jesus the Savior
Luke Timothy Johnson
Robert H. Stein
N. T. Wright

The bibliography that follows is for the edification, education, and debriefing of CCNL1.
Like most Jews, I am indifferent as to whether the Christians' Jesus Christ existed or not, so long as the Christians do not impose their views on Jews, and, in the process, deny Jews their own subjectivity, self-understanding.

Recent Scholarship on the Challenging the Historical Jesus (in Islam = Isa)

John G. Jackson, 1933, Was Jesus Christ a Negro? 1937, Introduction To African Civilizations. 1941, Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth. 1970 Man, God, and Civilization. 1985, Christianity Before Christ. Most influential Black Atheist drew attention to the Ethiopian and Egyptian precedents of Christian belief.

Edouard Dujardin, 1938, Ancient History of the God Jesus.

Alvin Boyd Kuhn, 1944, Who is this King of Glory? 1970, Rebirth for Christianity. Jesus was never a person, but a symbol of the divine soul in every human being.

Herbert Cutner, 1950, Jesus: God, Man, or Myth? Mythical nature of Jesus and a summary of the ongoing debate between mythicists and historicizers. Mythic-only position is continuous tradition, not novel. Pagan origins of Christ.

Georges Las Vergnas, 1956, Pourquoi j'ai quitté l'Eglise romaine Besançon. 1958, Jésus-Christ a-t-il existé? Vicar general of the diocese of Limoges who lost his faith. Argues that the central figure of Christianity had no historical existence.

Georges Ory, 1961, An Analysis of Christian Origins.

Guy Fau, 1967, Le Fable de Jesus Christ.

John Allegro, 1970, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. 1979, The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth. Jesus was nothing other than a magic mushroom and his life an allegorical interpretation of a drug-induced state. Not jail for Allegro – but professional ruin.

George Albert Wells, 1975, Did Jesus Exist? 1988, The Historical Evidence for Jesus. 1996, The Jesus Legend. 1998, Jesus Myth. 2004, Can We Trust the New Testament? Thoughts on the Reliability of Early Christian Testimony. Christianity a growth from Jewish Wisdom literature

Part IA: For CCNL's Edification

Max Rieser, 1979, The True Founder of Christianity and the Hellenistic Philosophy. Christianity started by Jews of the Diaspora and then retroactively set in pre-70 Palestine. Christianity arrived last, not first, in Palestine – that's why Christian archeological finds appear in Rome but not in Judea until the 4th century.

Abelard Reuchlin, 1979, The True Authorship of the New Testament. Conspiracy theory par excellence: Roman aristocrat Arius Calpurnius Piso (aka "Flavius Josephus") conspired to gain control of the Roman Empire by forging an entirely new religion.

Karlheinz Deschner, 1986-2004, The Criminal History of Christianity, Volumes 1-8. A leading German critic of religion and the Church. In 1971 Deschner was called before a court in Nuremberg, charged with "insulting the Church."

Hermann Detering, 1992, Paulusbriefe ohne Paulus?: Die Paulusbriefe in der holländischen Radikalkritik. German minister in the Dutch radical tradition. No Jesus and no Paul.

Gary Courtney, 1992, 2004 Et tu, Judas? Then Fall Jesus! The Passion is essentially Caesar's fate in Judaic disguise, grafted onto the dying/resurrcting cult of Attis. Jewish fans of Caesar assimilated the sacrificed 'saviour of mankind' into the 'Suffering Servant' of Isaiah.

Michael Kalopoulos, 1995, The Great Lie. Greek historian finds strikingly similar parallels between biblical texts and Greek mythology. He exposes the cunning, deceitful and authoritarian nature of religion.

Gerd Lüdemann, 1998, The Great Deception: And What Jesus Really Said and Did. 2002, Paul: The Founder of Christianity. 2004, The Resurrection Of Christ: A Historical Inquiry. After 25 years of study German professor concluded Paul, not Jesus, started Christianity. Lüdemann was expelled from the theology faculty at the University of Göttingen for daring to say that the Resurrection was "a pious self-deception." So much for academic freedom.

Alvar Ellegard, 1999, Jesus One Hundred Years Before Christ. Christianity seen as emerging from the Essene Church of God with the Jesus prototype the Teacher of Righteousness

Part II: For CCNL1's Edification

D. Murdock (aka 'Acharya S') 1999, The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold. 2004, Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled. Adds a astro-theological dimension to christ-myth demolition. Murdock identifies JC as a composite deity used to unify the Roman Empire.

Earl Doherty, 1999, The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? Powerful statement of how Christianity started as a mystical-revelatory Jewish sect – no Jesus required!.

Timothy Freke, Peter Gandy, 1999, The Jesus Mysteries. 2001, Jesus and the Lost Goddess : The Secret Teachings of the Original Christians. Examines the close relationship between the Jesus Story and that of Osiris-Dionysus. Jesus and Mary Magdalene mythic figures based on the Pagan Godman and Goddess.

Harold Liedner, 2000, The Fabrication of the Christ Myth. Anachronisms and geographic errors of the gospels denounced. Christianity one of history's most effective frauds.

Robert Price, 2000, Deconstructing Jesus. 2003 Incredible Shrinking Son of Man: How Reliable Is the Gospel Tradition? Ex-minister and accredited scholar shows Jesus to be a fictional amalgam of several 1st century prophets, mystery cult redeemers and gnostic 'aions'.

Hal Childs, 2000, The Myth of the Historical Jesus and the Evolution of Consciousness. A psychotherapist take on the godman.

Michael Hoffman, 2000, Philosopher and theorist of "ego death" who jettisoned an historical Jesus.

Part III: For CCNL1's edification

Burton Mack, 2001,The Christian Myth: Origins, Logic, and Legacy. Social formation of myth making.

Luigi Cascioli, 2001, The Fable of Christ. Indicting the Papacy for profiteering from a fraud!

Frank R. Zindler, 2003, The Jesus the Jews Never Knew: Sepher Toldoth Yeshu and the Quest of the Historical Jesus in Jewish Sources. No evidence in Jewish sources for the phantom messiah.

Daniel Unterbrink, 2004, Judas the Galilean. The Flesh and Blood Jesus. Parallels between the tax rebel of 6 AD and the phantom of the Gospels explored in detail. 'Judas is Jesus'. Well, part of Jesus, no doubt.

Tom Harpur, 2005, The Pagan Christ: Recovering the Lost Light. Canadian New Testament scholar and ex-Anglican priest re-states the ideas of Kuhn, Higgins and Massey. Jesus is a myth and all of the essential ideas of Christianity originated in Egypt.

Francesco Carotta, 2005, Jesus Was Caesar: On the Julian Origin of Christianity. Exhaustive inventory of parallels. Alarmingly, asserts Caesar was Jesus.

Joseph Atwill, 2005, Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus. Another take on the Josephus-Gospel similarities. Atwill argues that the 1st century conquerors of Judaea, Vespasian, Titus and Domitian, used Hellenized Jews to manufacture the "Christian" texts in order to establish a peaceful alternative to militant Judaism. Jesus was Titus Flavius? I don't think so.

Michel Onfray, 2005, Traité d'athéologie (2007 In Defence of Atheism) French philosopher argues for a positive atheism, debunking an historical Jesus along the way.

Jay Raskin, 2006, The Evolution of Christs and Christianities. Academic and erstwhile filmaker Raskin looks beyond the official smokescreen of Eusebius and finds a fragmented Christ movement and a composite Christ figure, crafted from several literary and historical characters. Speculates that the earliest layer of myth-making was a play written by a woman called Mary. Maybe.

Thomas L. Thompson, 2006, The Messiah Myth. Theologian, university don and historian of the Copenhagen school who concludes Jesus and David are both amalgams of Near Eastern mythological themes originating in the Bronze Age.

HEre is Wikipedia's acceptable bio. on Hillel, who is always referred to as Hillel, sans epithet, by Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder

Judaism eschews idolatry. The prohibition against idolatry is the sine qua none of Judaism. Hence, what is significant about Hillel is the decisions, midrash, etc., ascribed to him.

Notably, he did not walk on water, raise the dead, etc. He was also not the product of union between the divine and the mortal.

For Jews of the period, leadership was a matter of learnedness and wisdom, a tradition which has continued.

It should be noted that both Hillel and Jesus, in their pronouncements of what Christians call the golden rule were quoting the Tanakh: Leviticus 19:18.

Since CCNL continues to require instruction on the rights of Jews to their own self-understanding, I shall re-paste a scant bibliography on the non-existence of Jesus, to which I shall add regularly until CCNL's education is complete.

"Albert Scariato » Can we torture others and be true to our faith?"

Yes, if you're an adherent of either the Roman or the Anglican Church.

You're simply being true to their traditions.

Oops, make that Hillel the Elder, the fellow described at:

http://www.answers.com/topic/hillel

"Sources of information about Hillel are meager and must be sifted from many legends which subsequent generations have spun about him.

HILLEL, the elder, and whom?

Jesus, the simple preacher man, and Himmel the Elder (if they existed) were simply a couple of rabbis from ~ the first century CE, not gods or messengers from god, only normal men bred, born and brainwashed in the teachings of the ancients just like the rest of us. They, like a lot of current politicians had, however, great "spin doctors"/"mythicizers" and embellishers just like the "saints" Nick, Valentine and Christopher did.

I would hate to have to post again a five-part bibliography on the non-existence of Jesus, which, btw., was just the start. It was also annotated. Will did up the link. In the meantime, Jews have the right to their own subjectivity.

If CCNL still doesn't get that, we shall have to continue to educate him.

____________________________________________

Albert Scariarto:

You write:

"Rabbi Hillel and Jesus Christ had it right."

That which is hateful to you do not do unto others.

If I am not for myself, who will be for me?
If I am not for others, what am I?
And if not now, when?
Rabbi Hillel
(30 BC - 9 AD)

Hillel was the leader of the Jewish community in the time that Christ is purported to have lived. He was the head of the first generation of Tannaim (teachers), who wrote the Talmud.

His material poverty, goodness, kindness, wisdom are legendary. It was to him that Judea looked during the wretched Roman occupation, to this great man and his great contemporaries, some of whom were tortured to death by the Romans. This generation of Tannaim stood between nothingness and history and came out on the side of the latter.

One does not learn the Talmud, one practices it studies it, lives it. . . .Justice.

I don't see anything particularly wrong in being enamored of one man's take on the 'historical Jesus' e.g. Dominic Crossan.

However, it must be acknowledged that the Crossan view greatly diminishes our traditional vision of Jesus via the Crossan portrayal as a local illiterate & uneducated itinerant preacher - a rather insigificant not to say wildly flukish 'redeemer of men' whose importance was inflated out of all proportation and to a cosmic degree, by the contingencies of history and the needs of men.

We see that Crossan dumped the priesthood for marriage and greater academic freedom -not bad things in themselves. If one were to take such a man as their intellectual mentor, then eventually even the politics would rub off - I see Crossan as an ultra-liberal Chicago democrat and very pro-Obama.

He probably has much in common with our own Father Thomas Reese here On Faith.....not a bad association by any means. Hopefully the political transformation will soon follow the theological epiphany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dominic_Crossan

Tacitus and Flavious Josephus have long been disputed as historical hearsayers - if not downright apologists for the Roman Empire.

If that's all Crossan et al have going for them, I'd say faith was a strong element in their research findings.

But that begs the point - which quite simply was that two famous historical characters (real or imagined) espoused the Golden Rule as their central teaching - and which is quite inconsistent with proclivities and policies condoning the torture of one's enemies.

Which as I said before, is best left to sadists anyway, who by nature have a real knack for it - 'perverse and psychopathological' defines torture at it's root.

Both governments and certain religions have been famous practitioners of this blackest of arts from time immemorial....

Albert Scariato

You wrote, "Hurt, pain, torture, murder. If we come from a faith tradition, should we not practice what we profess?"

As I have said: God looks at the person, not the label and I would like to add, God takes into consideration what "label" someone applies to themself.

You also wrote, "Rabbi Hillel and Jesus Christ had it right. Their messages were of a faith that healed--not just like-minded folk but everyone."

Jesus said nothing of the sort.

If someone actually takes into account what Jesus said, He didn't say that living the "Golden Rule" would ("heal--not just like-minded folk but everyone"), He said, "If you follow Me, remember how they treated Me".

What others do is up to them, free will you know, the following of the "Golden Rule" is not contingent on what others do to you but on what you do to others, is it not?

The "Golden Rule" actually is to change the practitioner, if it rubs off, so to speak, fine, if not, fine also.

You also wrote, "Isn't it time we get it right? For God's sake!"

Getting it "right" is living it and realizing that we can not change another's heart maybe their actions but not their heart.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

http://www.answers.com/topic/hillel

"Sources of information about Hillel are meager and must be sifted from many legends which subsequent generations have spun about him.

vs.

From Professors Crossan and Watts' book, Who is Jesus.

"That Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, as the Creed states, is as certain as anything historical can ever be.

“ The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened. "

See also Professor Crossan's reviews of the existence of Jesus in his other books especially, The Historical Jesus and also Excavating Jesus (with Professor Jonathan Reed doing the archeology discussion) .

Other NT exegetes to include members of the Jesus Seminar have published similar books with appropriate supporting references.

Part of Crossan's The Historical Jesus has been published online at books.google.com/books.

There is also a search engine for this book on the right hand side of the opening page. e.g. Search Josephus

See also Wikipedia's review on the historical Jesus to include the Tacitus' reference to the crucifixion of Jesus.

From ask.com,

"One of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Cornelius Tacitus is a primary source for much of what is known about life the first and second centuries after the life of Jesus. His most famous works, Histories and Annals, exist in fragmentary form, though many of his earlier writings were lost to time. Tacitus is known for being generally reliable (if somewhat biased toward what he saw as Roman immorality) and for having a uniquely direct (if not blunt) writing style.

Then there are these scriptural references:

Crucifixion of Jesus:(1) 1 Cor 15:3b; (2a) Gos. Pet. 4:10-5:16,18-20; 6:22; (2b) Mark 15:22-38 = Matt 27:33-51a = Luke 23:32-46; (2c) John 19:17b-25a,28-36; (3) Barn. 7:3-5; (4a) 1 Clem. 16:3-4 (=Isaiah 53:1-12); (4b) 1 Clem. 16.15-16 (=Psalm 22:6-8); (5a) Ign. Mag. 11; (5b) Ign. Trall. 9:1b; (5c) Ign. Smyrn. 1.2.- (read them all at wiki.faithfutures. Crucifixion org/index.php/005_Crucifixion_Of_Jesus )

"This was the closest I have ever been to a depiction of torture (I suppose I don't watch enough television)."

I think the television depictions of 'torture' are part of the problem, actually: the idea seems to be in the culture that it's an ordeal for heroes that can and should be resisted.... whereas of course when done to villains, it's righteously taking advantage of their cowardice or whatever.

Unfortunately, the Abrahamic 'morality' about it doesn't involve torture being a bad thing to do, as long as you do it in the name of the right religion, under the rationale that it's obviously better than their own idea of 'Hell,' hence the prevarications and justifications.

In a civilized world, and particularly a free society, torture must be opposed on the basis it's dishonorable and abrogates everything we're supposed to be protecting. Also to realize that torturing people entrenches enemies and escalates the barbarities of war and other forms of conflict.

I daresay there's at least as much historical evidence for the Rabbi Hillel's esteemed presence on the planet, as for that other Rabbi of note e.g. Jesus of Nazarath - truly a semi-mythical character if ever there was one....Crossan, et al not withstanding.

In any event, the great message to humanity that has been attributed to the two is not different - and I think that was the point of the article.

Mythology sometimes equals truth......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder

Are there any non-Jewish references which note Rabbi Himmel the Elder even existed???

Albert Scariarto:

You write:

"Rabbi Hillel and Jesus Christ had it right."

That which is hateful to you do not do unto others.

If I am not for myself, who will be for me?
If I am not for others, what am I?
And if not now, when?
Rabbi Hillel
(30 BC - 9 AD)

Hillel was the leader of the Jewish community in the time that Christ is purported to have lived. He was the head of the first generation of Tannaim (teachers), who wrote the Talmud.

His material poverty, goodness, kindness, wisdom are legendary. It was to him that Judea looked during the wretched Roman occupation, to this great man and his great contemporaries, some of whom were tortured to death by the Romans. This generation of Tannaim stood between nothingness and history and came out on the side of the latter.

One does not learn the Talmud, one practices it studies it, lives it. . . .Justice.