All Comments (107)

God is too big for one religion.

I think that absolutely they should offer a variety. Let kids choose what faith they feel drawn to, instead of forcing faith down their throats. The Bible, Quran, Literature on Buddhism, Hinduism, and books on Wicca, by authors such as James Aten. These would give them a very well rounded world view, and perhaps entice them to study the history of how various religions evolved, rather than trying to convince them there is only one, which,to me, breeds ignorance.

I think that absolutely they should offer a variety. Let kids choose what faith they feel drawn to, instead of forcing faith down their throats. The Bible, Quran, Literature on Buddhism, Hinduism, and books on Wicca, by authors such as James Aten. These would give them a very well rounded world view, and perhaps entice them to study the history of how various religions evolved, rather than trying to convince them there is only one, which,to me, breeds ignorance.

It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

Schools offer music classes - do they require study of every instrument invented, or of every song written? Schools offer Literature classes - do they cover every novel or poet who ever produced a work? How about government classes, or geography classes, or science classes? No, they cover some basics, some influentials, some interestings. So it could be with a comparative religion class. My children, as I did as a youngster, explore these topics on their own time and with help that they seek from me, and it would be wonderful for them to have a somewhat knowledgeable teacher at their school to present the materials and be able to undertake a more formal study/survey of this important influence on our world. A teacher asks questions you don't think to ask, forces you to explore topics you might not choose to explore on your own, and offers alternative points of view that you would be closed to if not for being exposed to it in a non-threatening academic environment.

Schools offer music classes - do they require study of every instrument invented, or of every song written? Schools offer Literature classes - do they cover every novel or poet who ever produced a work? How about government classes, or geography classes, or science classes? No, they cover some basics, some influentials, some interestings. So it could be with a comparative religion class. My children, as I did as a youngster, explore these topics on their own time and with help that they seek from me, and it would be wonderful for them to have a somewhat knowledgeable teacher at their school to present the materials and be able to undertake a more formal study/survey of this important influence on our world. A teacher asks questions you don't think to ask, forces you to explore topics you might not choose to explore on your own, and offers alternative points of view that you would be closed to if not for being exposed to it in a non-threatening academic environment.

Schools offer music classes - do they require study of every instrument invented, or of every song written? Schools offer Literature classes - do they cover every novel or poet who ever produced a work? How about government classes, or geography classes, or science classes? No, they cover some basics, some influentials, some interestings. So it could be with a comparative religion class. My children, as I did as a youngster, explore these topics on their own time and with help that they seek from me, and it would be wonderful for them to have a somewhat knowledgeable teacher at their school to present the materials and be able to undertake a more formal study/survey of this important influence on our world. A teacher asks questions you don't think to ask, forces you to explore topics you might not choose to explore on your own, and offers alternative points of view that you would be closed to if not for being exposed to it in a non-threatening academic environment.

Schools offer music classes - do they require study of every instrument invented, or of every song written? Schools offer Literature classes - do they cover every novel or poet who ever produced a work? How about government classes, or geography classes, or science classes? No, they cover some basics, some influentials, some interestings. So it could be with a comparative religion class. My children, as I did as a youngster, explore these topics on their own time and with help that they seek from me, and it would be wonderful for them to have a somewhat knowledgeable teacher at their school to present the materials and be able to undertake a more formal study/survey of this important influence on our world. A teacher asks questions you don't think to ask, forces you to explore topics you might not choose to explore on your own, and offers alternative points of view that you would be closed to if not for being exposed to it in a non-threatening academic environment.

Schools offer music classes - do they require study of every instrument invented, or of every song written? Schools offer Literature classes - do they cover every novel or poet who ever produced a work? How about government classes, or geography classes, or science classes? No, they cover some basics, some influentials, some interestings. So it could be with a comparative religion class. My children, as I did as a youngster, explore these topics on their own time and with help that they seek from me, and it would be wonderful for them to have a somewhat knowledgeable teacher at their school to present the materials and be able to undertake a more formal study/survey of this important influence on our world. A teacher asks questions you don't think to ask, forces you to explore topics you might not choose to explore on your own, and offers alternative points of view that you would be closed to if not for being exposed to it in a non-threatening academic environment.

Soja - I know from your writings here that you are an intelligent and thoughtful person.

I suspect you do not check the history behind your traditions not for lack of time, but because you do not want to know.

That's your prerogative, of course, and it’s mine to be doubtful, whenever you claim specific knowledge about Christian history or teachings. I’m not sure that you’ve carefully checked the facts, because I’m not sure you want to know the facts.

Mainly, I’m bothered by a “tradition” of religious traditions that misleads faithful, trusting people like you for centuries. St. Thomas is the least of it. So many traditional stories of the Bible are just that -- stories, not truth, and scholars and most clergy know that – but they keep us regular people in the dark. It can’t last forever.

E. FAVOURITE

I agree atheism is not new. Many Catholic scholastic theologians and Christian apologetics have long dealt with the topic in scholarly ways. What is new is the brand of anti-religious atheism that Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins are wanting to actively propogate in the name of reason and science, as if religion automatically shuts out reason and makes it impossible to do science. I have posted some links on the issue in Harris threads - 'Selfless Consciousness without faith' and 'God's hostages.' Although I don't find any merit in atheism per se, I truly admire atheists like Daniel Dennett, and Scott Atran even more. In fact I like all atheists who are good human beings. If you were to read Scott Atran's views you'd notice that he has a different view of Harris' and Dawkins's ideas than you do. Even other atheists seem to think that Dawkins and Harris belong to a class of their own, which has nothing to do with what serious atheists are about. Professor Alistar McGrath from Oxford University has studied and criticised Dawkins extensively. He has even written a book titled "Dawkins Delusion." What Harris has written in the WP forum gives a pretty good insight into his antagonistic attitude towards religion.

As for Apostle Thomas who came to Kerala, India in 52 AD, I'm quite content to believe in my own Syro-Malabar Catholic tradition. You may not find any value in centuries old tradition but some traditions do have a root in historical facts. I do not believe on blind faith. I doubt if Japan and Mexico have the kind of centuries old traditions that Kerala has. I have written more thoughts on this also on Sam Harris thread "God's Hostages" because you raised objections to my claim. I have not done any research on the topic I admit, mostly because I have other things on my mind. But crudely put, it would be no different from Aboriginals of Australia doing research from the writings of experts from other parts of the world about their culture and beliefs, two millennia later, to seek affirmation for everything they believe in. Having said that I must assure you that there are people in Kerala who are sufficiently interested in the history and are trying to present it in a way fit for the peer review committee of the West.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Soja - all this knowledge and you still think:

- neo-atheists want to stamp out religion (Atheists are nothing new and the ones writing now think religion is outmoded and should fade away. I've read most of what's been written and I missed the part about stamping religion out. perhaps it seems that way to some religious people - just as some people confuse education about religion with religious indoctrination.

- St Thomas traveled to India to start your branch of Christianity, based on no evidence except the centuries old "traditions" of your people. (St Thomas was supposedly in Japan and Mexico starting Christianity there too)

Dear Professor Pagels

I share your conviction that religion is not about to disappear in the 21st century, there is an urgent need to become familiar with religion at an early age in an intellectual way, without distortion. The rise of the brand of neo-atheism that seeks to stamp out religion in the name of reason and science, makes it clear that there is something dreadfully wrong with the way the masses are being presented with religion. The change must begin at a grassroots level, and education is the key.

For America and for the world, understanding about and respect for other religions is no longer a luxury of the intellectual and spiritual elite, but an absolute necessity in an increasingly global and interdependent world. More and more the world is becoming a global family under one God who is worshipped in different ways. While each country will continue to have its own national interests, it is becoming increasingly indispensable to work in harmony with other countries to achieve each nation’s goal in a win-win manner.

The easiest way for respect for other religions to become a natural part of one’s psyche is to start with children who can absorb the profound yet simple truth intuitively at a very young age if given the opportunity to do so – yes, by making the learning of the fourth R compulsory. American children (and for that matter children all over the world) need to develop this knowledge not only to understand and respect people from other countries, but to understand and respect people of different faiths in their own country.

“Ekam sad vipra bahudha vadantikam Sat...The Real/Truth (God) is one, but the wise (twice-born) call it by various names,” says the oldest Scripture in human history, the Rig Veda in its first section (Rig Veda 1.164.64). Study of religions would be easier if it were to be based on this wisdom revealed to man. Yet every religious path is a unique revelation of God and it is the most basic of human freedoms to choose the path one will follow in relating to one’s Creator, if one so chooses.

As to the origin of religions itself, one wonders why all major religions of the world have their origins in the Middle East/East. Lux aus dem Osten, Luxus aus dem Westen. Light from the East and luxury from the West. One commonly hears Christianity being referred to as a Western religion. But Christianity and Judaism are as much from the Middle East as Islam is. Other major religions from the East: Buddhism and Hinduism (besides minor religions like Jainism, Sikhism among others) from India, Confucianism from China.

Let no one fear that the study of religions on an intellectual basis in schools and universities would be a threat to any one religion. The practice of any religion requires a personal faith with an attending emotional component and for most some elements of ritual and a supportive community is part of the personal faith. None of this is provided in an intellectual curriculum. Hence the role of families and religious communities will continue to be the same as it has always been. What the study of religions does provide is an understanding about man’s search for transcendent meaning from the beginning of time, origins of religions in general, the tenets of world religions in particular, and the role it has played in the shaping of civilisations and cultures throughout the ages. Children should know that the search for God is universal and has taken different forms in different parts of the world. When an objective opportunity is provided to assess the contribution of religions to all areas of human life, it would become clear that religion is not divorced from reason and science, and that belief in God makes reason and science sublime. Einstein said “Religion without science is blind, science without religion is lame.”

Major religions, because of their impact on forming civilisations and cultures, are to be made the focus, and smaller religions could be covered in the form of assignments by pupils/students. Major religions to be offered would be Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and non-deistic religious philosophies - Buddhism and Confucianism. For the Americans it would be equally important to learn about the religious belief of the native Indians, for they held their land sacred and lived in harmony with it for millennia before Europeans arrived.

It would be fair for Americans to learn a little more in depth about Christianity because it has shaped Western civilisation in general and American history in particular.

The curriculum could be integrated into language, social studies and history, and need not be excluded on the grounds that there is insufficient resource or time for children to learn everything that needs to be learnt.

Suggestions for details to be added in the curriculum, to be handed at different levels of complexity at different ages:

1. Brief biography of the founder of the religions.

2. Major tenets of the religion, with a greater focus on what all religions have in common.

3. Parts of Scripture that highlight these.

4. Major contribution to various aspects of human life throughout history. Professor Daniel Dennett has provided a really good check list.

5. Biography of a selected few representatives to highlight contribution, mystics being classic examples, along with scientists, artists, politicians of great standing etc who openly acknowledged their religious faith.

6. The failings of religions should be taught only when the pupils are older. They should be mature enough to understand that religion can be misused, that human beings with a free will have used religion as a tool to their selfish ends. It is better for pupils to first have a deep understanding of the positive side of religions. It is too much to ask small children to grapple with the way some human beings in history abused religion.

7. In teaching Christianity it is important to highlight the beliefs all Christian denominations have in common, rather than confuse young children with all the details of the different denominations. When they are older they can better understand the points of differences. Personally I feel the Scripture that needs to be emphasised are: The Ten Commandments, The Sermon on the Mount, the message of Jesus in the Gospel of John, chapters 14-17, Psalms 23 and 139.

From my personal experience I can affirm that learning about various religions in a simple manner in school opened my mind without making me give up my own Christian faith. I had even memorised the eighteenth chapter of the Bhagavad-Gita in Sanskrit for a recitation competition in school without wanting to convert to Hinduism for that reason. What I learnt in school however prepared me for meeting Dom Bede Griffiths and the world he opened up for me many years later. I’m still a Christian by conviction and I have been deeply enriched by opening my heart to the wisdom of other religions. I wish everyone the same opportunity to open their hearts and minds to the wonderful way in which God has manifested Himself in His universe, and to embrace reason and science as God’s tools to reveal His truth.

The relationship of every human being with his/her Creator is sacred and unique, and it is God who leads human beings to Himself in ways that He sees fit for each human being. I believe we can trust God to do His job for it is He who most wants a loving relationship with His creation. Let every religious leader be encouraged to do their best to portray their religion and God in the best possible light through their teaching and the example of their own lives.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Ms. Elaine Pagel

Before we get into whether religions should be taught in American schools and colleges, having read some of the posts in On Faith threads, I think English should be taught properly too. Unless some Americans are engaging in freestyle, stream of conciousness, post modern English writing. If that is the case, it is certainly not assisting in conveying what their thoughts are, especially to non-native speakers. As you know, miscommunications and misunderstandings on language do lead to conflicts and wars between peoples and nations.

Is this a complain, a gripe, a whine? Yes. So....

Watch this video from a US soldier about atrocities he and other US soldiers commit on a daily basis in Iraq against innocent people:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4315

Victoria,

You overlook that the neocons have effective control of the educational system in the USA and they 'don't want no upstarts' with a 'lib'ral' education. They want 'conservatives' that will do as they're told!

What facts would be taught? That God gave Israel that land? That God is all wise but didn't have enough gumption to give them a deed?

That God wrote on tablets of stone but let Moses put them in a box and not show them to anyone!!!

That the world was created in six days? Or that intelligent beings happened along without the aid of intelligence? Or that there is and has been design evolution with block changes by a Creator? The third one makes 'them' fall to pieces and get all shook up! But it probably is the correct one.

It seems many people are quite frightened by the prospect of teaching ABOUT the different faiths of people throughout the world.

I think the reponses of many of the posters are the best example of exactly why KNOWLEDGE about religion should be taught-

not the angry agenda driven kind- but simple facts about religions-
belief systems-

one of the posters here suggested that people should wait until college because 'nothing is stopping them'.
more and more americans are unable to afford college- sorry, but most americans dont fall into that category.

look at how easily people are manipulated into hating the 'other' enough to unquestioningly send (those unable to afford college) off to kill them.

knowledge isnt bad or frightening- knowledge staves off fear and prejudice-

while many here express dismay at indoctrinations they have endured- i will state that such indoctrinations have less impact when countered with other relative knowledge-

and now atheists are saying its a religion, well,which is it?
a religion or not?
its a simple matter to make an elective course- if you want your child to remain ignorant of a subject thats your prerogative-

ive taught about religion to adults and children
its not necessary to make judgements- or compare- its not a competition-
present the basics- use visual aids-

peronally i wont speak on a subject unless ive investigated it myself- one cant possibly expect teachers to have the time or ability to do so-
obviously the curriculum would have to come from the practicioners themselves-

when all religions are brought down to their bare bones- they all basically have the same message-
love being one of them. and love is good.

if youre so inclined you can look for and find ugliness. if youre inclined you can find the unity of most beliefs and learn tolerance and acceptance.

i challenge people to give me instances where ignorance of a subject has been a superior way of guiding our children. (Ignorance in the literal sense, not the popular jargon)

IGNORANCE
he state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

n. The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

are ignorance and fear really preferable to knowledge and education?
is this what we want for our children?

Roberta - Good News - Christian martyrdom opportunities may still be available in the 21st century.

I've heard some countries don't tolerate Christians who try to distribute bibles. I'm not sure exactly which countries, but I bet a little creative googling could get you the answer in no time.

What a great opportunity. You could convert a bunch of people to the one true religion and if you got caught, you'd get your guaranteed ticket to heaven.

Something like this could never happen in the US, at least under our current Constitution.

God is not the auther of confusion, and if you believe in Him and surrendered your life to Him, you will have a clear, stable, reverent and humble disposition. There is only one God and there should be only One religion.

Did you ever wonder why there are so many "religious beliefs" in our world today, not necessarily believing in one God. In the Christian faith alone, there are so many denominations, with doctrinal differences. God is not the cause of this, but MAN himself.

There is so much hatred, brutality, killing, massacre and enmity in the name of Religion; Muslims against Christians, Catholics against the Protestant, Sheite Muslims against the Sunni Muslims. There is no end to all this killings.

Many people today were blaming the Christians for the Inquisition, when the truth is, the victims of the Inquisitions were "True Believers of Jesus Christ". They were burned at the stakes, by the order of the Pope, because they would not deny their savior Jesus Christ and they would not stop reading the Bible and they refused to be converted to Catholicism. Do you know why it was called Dark Ages? It was called so, because the reading of the Holy Bible was prohibited. The Bible was taken away from the people and they burned them. No one can have the Bible except the Catholic Church authority. If you were caught in the possesion of the Bible, you will be tortured horribly and killed. Many millions of Christians died for reading the Bible and because they wanted to be true to Jesus. They accepted death willingly because they believe that they will be resurrected some day and will live forever and ever.

If are interested in knowing the truth about the Inquisition, read the book," Foxes Book of Martyrs."

What is it with posts simply not appearing? I write direct but unvitriolic posts and they simply don't appear, maybe 20% of the time. Annoying.

Roberta:

Have you forgotten what country we live in? There are 70 million Americans who are not Christians. You may not impose your religion on us. I am an atheist (happy, contented and at peace), and you may NOT teach my child that there is a god. You may not teach my child that the Bible is true or that there are any other supernatural beings or events, you may not.

You are free to believe as you wish - that's an American value - but you must keep your religion out of our lives and away from our families.

Roberta - I think people like you - - who think teaching religion would make America less secular - are the reason why so many people are afraid of education about religion in the public schools. Like you, they are confused about the difference between indoctrination and education. Unlike you, they recognize that religious conversion has no place in public education.

I am neither anti-Semitic nor homophobic, and I am not judging anyone because God is the Judge. Salvation is offered to all who is willing to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, to the Jew first, then to the rest of us. I have to reiterate this because somebody miscontrued my previous post. I mentioned the reasons why the Holy Bible should be taught in schools, because it will teach our children the existence of God, who is a loving Father, and who is very much interested with our well-being. Our children will come to know Him, not as a tyrrant, vindictive and cruel, as society portrayed Him to be. This is suppose to be the parents primary responsiblity, but since most parents have negated this duty, the schools would be another avenue, and hopefully would correct the root causes of problems in our school system.
Our world especially the USA has become more secularized, that they wanted to erase the exiatence of God in their life. If we are really honest with ourselves, most of the post that I am reading here are against the teaching of the Bible in schools, because it will take away the funding going to other programs. Don't you think that God has the priority over anything else. He is the creator of all things and He is in control of everything, including the air that we breath, whether you believe this or not.
To those who don't believe in God, can you honestly say that you are happy, contented and have peace of mind? True happiness can be found only in Jesus Christ, not in money, power, prestige, nor popularity. The Holy Bible teaches that we have a Savior, Jesus Christ, who died for our sins. He is alive and is sitting at the right hand of God the Father. None of the other religions has a leader who died for them, and is alive, and continue to entercede for them. Therefore, I can not compare them to the belief that I have, being a Bible-believing Christian.

Begone and Willem seem to have a fairly good grasp of how things are.

But just as it "takes a village to raise a child" it takes an organization "to keep the faith" going!

The question for the ages is where is the headquarters and how do they communicate!

Stuff happens - but religion has been awfully repetitious across the ages.

The Bible, the Koran, the Book of Mormon, and the Dead Sea Scrolls have too much similarity in methods and techniques to not be "DNA" related.

Roberta writes, "I would rather obey God, than man, no matter how unpopular I may be". I don't know if "obeying God" will make her unpopular but those anti-Semitic and homophobic remarks are a good start down that road.

With the disclaimer, "none of this is fact, 100% faith = superstition" anything can be taught. The ones that stand to lose are those who want superstition turned into fact.

There's the matter of all the conflicting faiths that spring from all the contradictions in the Bible. That's not to mention that the history of "The Amarna Era" of ancient Egypt can't be ignored. At least 42 million Americans agree with the "find" that Amenophis IV is the basis in fact for critical Bible stories.

No problem. When young minds have all the facts they error not in their decisions. It's the old, cemented over brains that are impossible to deal with.

Norrie - yes, it’s me all right. I’ve been pro-education throughout. The article mentions that the approved courses are “Literature and History of the Old Testament Era, and Literature and History of the New Testament Era.”

Now I’m not naive to think that Christian fundamentalists won’t try to use these academic-sounding courses to slip in some Christian proselytizing in public schools. What I’m saying is that their attempts to subvert the Constitution in this way will get huge attention and scrutiny from secular organizations and the national press.

E Favorite,

Is the last post above under your name really yours? I seems to express a different sentiment than your ususal. Maybe I'm not reading it correctly.

"Religion in the schools is a very hot topic and this course, as proposed is not religious indoctrination – it’s learning ABOUT religion, the Bible, in particular, which no one disputes is a very important piece of literature." (your words).

It's not learning ABOUT religion. It's a presentation of what the Bible asserts and asserts about itself, No scholarly or objective presentation here. No alternative or skeptical views allowed. No teaching of the Koran or the Buddha's teachings.

Have you forgotten that this is Georgia? What kind of Biblical teaching do you imagine this will be? How do you spell FUNDAMENTALIST BORN AGAIN?

And, I think you won't get the public spectacle you'd like. It will all pass under the radar. Stealth proselityzation. I'm glad I live near the Canadian border.

Norrie Hoyt: Good news, After reading the “Georgia Bible course” article you’ve been posting on so many threads
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/08/AR2007030801683.html

I’m feeling even more positive than before. Why? Because the national press will be all over this. This could be a major opening for public understanding. Religion in the schools is a very hot topic and this course, as proposed is not religious indoctrination – it’s learning ABOUT religion, the Bible, in particular, which no one disputes is a very important piece of literature. National separation of church and state organizations and educational organizations will get involved to make sure the course meets educational standards. Parents with various points of view will get involved and will be interviewed regularly by roving reporters. Interviews with fundamentalist Christian children, who have been coached by their parents will be broadcast far and wide, publicizing how incredibly indoctrinated children are.
Some kids will rebel against their parents and the press will be all over them.

Teachers who step forward to teach the course will be scrutinized on their academic and religious credentials. Christians who demand “bible believing” teachers will have to defend their views publicly, from an educational, not a religious, perspective. Teacher standards will need to be reviewed. People like you and me will barrage the local and national newspapers with scathing letters to the editor and might even go to Georgia to demonstrate in front of the state legislature. I can hardly wait.

Norrie -- be optimistic! I predict the Georgia thing will play out like the Kansas board of education Intelligent design debacle.

It will get a lot of negative national press. Georgia will be a laughing stock. Everyone who voted this in will be voted out of office.

National consciousness will be raised – meaning many Americans will learn the difference between religious indoctrination and comparative religions – and we’ll all move to the next level.

It could happen.

E Favorite,

The Georgia law is evidence of a point I've been making all through these threads:

If the politicians allow a nose into the tent of public education, what will immediately follow will be the big, ugly body of Christian fundamentalism.

Politicians aren't interested in comparative religion classes in public schools - they already know which one is best.

I don't believe Elaine Pagels will ever get to see the comparative religion courses she'd like. Instead she'll get a proliferation of Georgia statutes.

Best to you.

Friend,

The point I was making is that Georgia will only be teaching the Old and New Testaments. Nothing about other belief systems.

Nothing comparative there.

Regards.

Some facts with comment, conclusion. Sounds similar to me.

An education in Comparitive Religion would enlighten all. From the posts above, you would think that there are only Western Religions and only literal interpretations of religious texts.

I say science in the science classroom and religion in the Comparitive Religion classroom.

Norrie: "This Georgia law shows exactly why religion should not be taught in the public schools!"

I say - this law is a good example of exactly the wrong way to teach religion. The Bible is not the totality of "religion" even if many think of it that way. The religion courses Pagels is talking about are not biblical indoctrination.

Roberta - please note: This is not about "teach[ing] again the existence of God in all our classrooms...." it's about teaching about many religions in a neutral way.

Willem - relax - churches may teach hocus pocus, but schools do not.

It's becoming more and more clear to me that the first education that must be done is teaching the difference between comparative religion as an academic subject and the religious indoctrination that so many of us are familiar with from our church experiences.

what do we have churches for?? if you want to learn religion, fine you sure will find it there but keep all that HOKUS POKUS out of the classroom.
but remember most churches are run by HOMOMPHOBIC MONEYGRABBING MULAHS/PREACHERS/MININSTERS its all a scam you be better off to stay away from all that bs.

Friend,

Your supposed comparison doesn't parse - it's no comparison at all.

The Georgia law uses taxpayers' dollars to promote one particular religion.

Teaching science only teaches science.

I believe that if we teach again the existence of God in all our classrooms, whether it be grade schools, high schools, colleges and unversities, we would not have all the problems we are facing right now with our students; such as, drug addictions, alcoholism, teen age pregnancies, school shootings, school drop outs, and suicides. We would'nt have violence in our schools and moral degradation in our society. I am a Bible-believing Christian, and I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation, for All who believe, to the Jew first, and then to all the rest. I remember in my history book that our forefathers, who establised our great nation, the United States of America, were Bible-believing and God fearing Christians. All the problems of our society was unheard of 50-100 years ago. Then slowly but steadily, our spiritual and moral values began to change, then ultimately our government mandated prayers to be taken out from our school system, because prayer was offensive to the few students who don't believe in God. One would say there are more people who go to church nowadays, which is true.
But there is no power in them. There is more divorces now compared to people getting married. There are more people living together with out getting married, and they still think that in the eyes of God its okey. There are more homosexuals getting out of the closet because they know that society will tolerate their behavior. They blamed the cause to a " messed up or mix up genes"?. Wrong, God created us male or female. He created our first parent, Adam and Eve, perfect in their physical and mental capacity. You CHOOSE to be like that, not becuase of your genes. This practice was tolerated by our society, then it was accepted, now it is protected. I read somebody mentioned that if you believe in God, you won't be popular, or you will be condemned. I would rather obey God, than man, no matter how unpopular I may be. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Atomic bomb kills hundred of thousands in Japan.

Children tune out because they are glued to the TV.

Governments race to develop nuclear and biological weapons.

This is exactly why science should not be taught in public schools!

HOT OFF THE WIRE:

"Georgia public schools move towards teaching Bible

"By DOUG GROSS
Associated Press
Thursday, March 8, 2007; 9:16 PM"

ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE WAPO TODAY

Notice that no other religion's scriptures are being taught.

Want to bet on whether the classes will have an Episcopal or a Fundamentalist cast to them?

This Georgia law shows exactly why religion should not be taught in the public schools!

Appreciate the work in Gospel of Judas, I enjoyed that DVD.

believe
beLIEve
BeLIEve

BeLiel, BeLiar, etc.. - 1 of the 4 crown princes of Hell.

We don't need to believe anything. We need to KNOW! Isn't that what Gnostics thought like? So yes, learn about other religions, as long as it is comparative.

Beliefs are weak and believing only makes us prone to BEing a CONvert suckered by CONfidence men and CONgregations following folks elected in CONclaves given power by Emperor CONstantine. Have you CONfessed your CONvictions yet?

To KNOW is much stronger. Soon we will (2012) - you may check out my website - www.circusoflife.com

"I can't believe it's not butter" too. Because I KNOW it isn't butter. It's margarine.

Pride makes us BeLIEve. Say LION over and over. What do you call a group of Lions?

"But its also clear that religion is not about to disappear-- and that if we don't understand more about it than we do, we are not going to understand the 21st century."

-Elaine Pagels

The truth is that religion is disapearing--and rapidly.

I am a sophomore attending a suburban, middle-class high school near Indianapolis, Indiana. Here, it is obvious that being religious is no longer the popular thing, especially among honors students. It is considered normal to be pro-free choice, pro-gay marriage, etc. Religion, on the other hand, is often shrugged off, and sometimes ridiculed. It is fair to say that the large majority of honors students here would consider themselves agnostic or "not religious" (the term 'atheist' is still shied away from). Of course, this trend could be dismissed as "young peoples' rebeliousness", but this is not the case: the fact is that many of our parents are not religious (and I am sure that records of church attendance would support this observation). Basically, the point I am trying to get across is this: when the middle-class of the "Bible Belt" is rapidly turning away from religion, it is clear that the end of religion is at hand.

I do not mean to offend or cause controversy, I sincerely believe what I have written.

It is clear that there are deep feelings about this issue, some maybe a little too strong. My question to those who think that it has no place in school is this; without it, how do you explain much of history and of current events?

I think that there has to be some place for religion in schools and I think that curricula can be designed that is informative, without being evangelical. Everyone needs to have an understanding of religion to understand the world today (and yesterday). If not, we fail our children to the ignorance that dominates discussion now.

Wow! Elaine is a Pultzer Prize nominee? And a professor at Princeton University no less. Then why is her argument on the subject so simple-minded. Obviously we are dealing with a very complex issue here, and all she is actually saying is 'Yes, go for it! Why not!' The other panelists seem so, well...educated.

Brett,
I am originally from the Rocky Mountains and so I do understand what you are talking about. It is always more difficult to teach anything complex in a context of homogeneity. I can't think of a situation where people could potentially get more out if it, though. As many have pointed out, it really does require the right teacher. But that would be true of a Psychology class, as well. In some communities the Biology teacher would have to be very diplomatic. The class that I teach is not some esoteric fluff class. They are requried to do as much, or more, writing, analytical thinking, speaking and reading, as any class that they will take in High School.

I must also reveal my bias. I believe that there are really important insights about life that can be found in each of the major world religions. I also believe that young people will benefit from them in a purely non-religious way. There, I have confessed.

Scott

I would love to see comparative religion taught in public schools along with philosophy of religion, psychology or religion, history of . . . well, you get the idea. The problem I see is ensuring that teaching does not cross over into indoctrination. Perhaps I am especially sensitive to this because I grew in this place out west called Utah where history lessons concerning the heroic trek of the Mormon pioneers often came with tacit and sometimes explicit references to the divine exodus that deilvered members of the Only True Religion to the promised land. And even when the teacher was sufficiently enlightened to avoid such overt endorsement of the dominant faith, there were still the inevitable knowing glances between co-religinoists and inside references to a body of knowledge shared by the teacher and just about every student but me. This may not be a problem in many other parts of the country, but the possibility that a student in a public school could be made to feel marginalized by a discussion of religion may be a good reason to keep it out of the curriculum.

Regarding poster Enough Said,

Why would you assume that my teaching about Hinduism would be "sadly lacking" and "extremly biased?" Everyone brings a subjective view to any discussion, but good teachers learn to present topics in a fair and objective manner. I don't understand everyone's reluctance to have mature and informed discussions about very important intellectual ideas. Odd.

Scott

When most of the people around you hold some kind of religious belief, and when conflicts between those beliefs continue to be used to justify all kinds of crimes, maybe a little course in comparative religion would have more value than memorizing state capitals, geological eras and invertebrate orders...

Hard to teach, sure: but atheists and fundamentalists alike seem to overlook important things like: listening, mutual respect, tolerance, patience, open-mindedness. 'Treat others as you would like to be treated' as Shakespeare said--oops! That was Jesus...same guy who was persecuted by religious conservatives and condemned to death by a godless political hack --if you believe the stories...

Maybe there's a reason that 2500 years of rational skepticism haven't wiped out either form of religion: superstition or faith. Like it or not, we're foolish if we ignore something so prevalent and so powerful.

To Prof. Pagels: I think the apostolic churches were correct in seeking to distinguish gnostic philosophies from the core of the gospel of the present love of the Father revealed in the Son and imparted as the Spirit: Love as Light becoming Reality. But hey.

Scott,

Your teaching about the Hinduism is sadly lacking and only present an extremely biased western point of view.
As many have mentioned int heir postings, leave teaching about religion out of K-12.

If I wanted to live in a theocracy, I would move elsewhere. Here, I am free to practice my religion of choice. Just as you might not want your children to be indoctrinated with my beliefs, I do not want my child indoctrinated with yours.

Don't tell me that religion can be taught objectively, because it can't. If my child is in a room with her peers, who are predominantly Christian, peer pressure will tend to make her want to identify with that group. She is free to make her own choice about religion when she is older, but it's MY job to perpetuate the beliefs that I have. Religion is a very personal, and often volatile, subject area.

I don't think the public schools have the time, money, or right to teach religion. They would do well to stick with reading and the other academia that are so rigorously tested these days. Leave the teaching of religion to parents and their local house of worship. Keep it out of the public school curriculum!

Dear Anonymus/1:37 PM:
You are the very reason why so many people doubt the capability of being neutral in religious classes: Why do you think it is nessesary to bash atheists?

Religion could only be taught in a general sense of why people continue to believe in magic. Astounding examples such as people blowing themselves up in the name of religion, or praying to a god tht just let a tornado or earthquake kill your friends probably should be discussed. However, like others said, if that were the case every religion would oppose the class.

Discussion of doctrine could only be done in an overview sense and we must include the opposite view of no religion as well. People would oppose this, because they fear their kids religious indoctrination might not hold up.