Hi
The Islamic Imams official teaching in all islamic countries dosenot allaowed any ideological colaborations with non muslims. According to that teaching Non muslims has no any choise other than Islam or the sowrd. This is also what they teach in thier schols to thier childrens and thats why I thank God that I could take my chiledrens to christians countries,

Jurist criminalist Daniel Mohamad Ali
http://www.youtube.com/user/MohamadsChristChurch

continued
All cultures and socioeconomic systems have injustice which needs to be reformed. This is true in India and Hinduism. Hinduism is open to reform and has been continually reformed. Today minority and womens rights are improving. The cast system is fading as well with economic development. It is quite clear that the social injustices you mentioned will continue to progressively diminish with time. This is why this Vedanta based religion with no prophet or founder has survived for 5,000 - 7,000 years. Change is a constant, but a philosophy of peace, unity, and tolerance is eternal.
In America, we used to have slavery and unimaginable expoitation of fellow human beings. The US constitution defined a black man as property with a value of 3/5 of a human being. Women did not have a right to vote until 1920. Blacks did not have effective voting rights till 1964 with the Voting Rights Act. These things needed reform and are changing. There is still racism and sexism in America, but we just elected Obama for president. The principles of freedom and equality that define America are eternal and overcame the social injustices that existed. since 1947, This is happening rapidly in India with its culture of nonviolence and tolerance based on Vedanta and Hinduism.
The future of humanity lies with tolerance, democracy, unity, nonviolence, environmentalism, and maybe even vegetarianism. Science and rational skepticism will lead the way in most countries to create a new common culture and ethic. The question is whether tolerance and rational skepticism are consistent with the supremacist philosophy of the Abrahamic faiths.
Or will the philosophy of Vedanta (nondualism, unity, oneness) be consistent with science, physics, and rationality.
Can you imagine true believing Jews, Christians, and Muslims actually making peace with each other and also with the remaining majority of the world (Hindus, Bhuddists, Atheists, nonbelievers, etc...) in a mutually respectful way? I think you know the answer to that question.

(BTW hsnkwj, threatening to shave ones own head is not very violent. Sonia Ghandhi is an Italian born in Italy. In America, to be President you have to born in America. Its rational policy.)

clearthinking1 :

You continue to evade the issue. If Hindus of India can not make equality among themselves and continue to commit atrocities against Dalits (the untouchables), how can they give equality to non-Hindus?

Do you forget that Sonia Gandhi had to withdraw her name from Prime Minister's position because of relentless attacks on her for being of foreign origin and of Christian origin? One female Hindu politician from Delhi even threatened to get her head shaved in protest if Sonia Gandhi became the prime minister.

Did you forget to mention that Hindu fanatics of Gujarat committed genocide of Muslims in 2002? Is this also an example of Hindu tolerance? You can put up the names of show pieces of women, Muslims, Dalits who became presidents. The question is how are minorities treated at the grassroots level in India?

Did you forget that Christian churches in India were burnt in Orissa, Karnataka and other places in 2008 and on Christmas day in 2007, several churches were burnt in Orissa in 2007?

There are lots of Hindus in India who are good people. But BJP (to which Modi, Vajpayee, Advani, Singhal and many others belong) are not the tolerant ones.

THe RSS, the Bajrang Dal (the monkey brigade) the Shiva Sena, the V.H.P. (Vishva Hindu Parishad or World Hindu Council) want to take India back to the Dark Ages.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Sonia Gandhi, the Congress party and several secular parties of India are the greatest hope for India's democracy.

Clearthinking,

You say *Wealthiest man in India is Muslim*

Isnt *number one* Mukesh Ambani ?

Isnt *number second* Lakshimi Mittal(shark) ?

Both of them are Hindu,not muslim.

HSNKHWJ,
You continue to miss the point. You still haven't addressed the supremacist philosophy of the Abrahamic faiths and the conflicts they continue to cause. They goal supposedly is mutual respect and tolerance, and this cannot happen if you have a supremacist belief system.

In contrast, the Vedantic philosophy which defines Hinduism has allowed people to be tolerant for millenia, as I have mentioned before. When free to write their own constitution, Hindus in India led by Nehru and Gandhi (Hindus & Vedanta scholars) immediately codified equality, plurality, and tolerance.

Since then India has had Muslim, Hindu, female, Dalit etc. presidents. The current PM is Sikh. The most powerful politician in India today (Sonia Gandhi) is female, Catholic, and Italian. Christians have been Defence ministers. The wealthiest man in India is Muslim. You mentioned Vajpayee - he had a Christian Defence Minister and a Muslim as a President. Lalu Prasad is doing quite well and is enjoying his power and wealth. All this in a nation that is 85% Hindu.
This can be contrasted with Pakistan. Pakistan was 40% Hindu and is now 1% Hindu. The conflicts, violence, lack of democracy, lack of minority and women's rights there is well documented.

Continued above

Hey Eboo,

I just wrote a nice response in the discussion with HSNKHWJ. Why are you withholding it. A little defense of Hindus and Vedanta make you nervous?

This is the USA. The Bill of Rights and Constitution supercede the Koran.

Freedom of speech. Many American Christians gave their lives for your freedom, Eboo. Respect that.

And what does one find when "googling" Tony Blair's popularity?

He was one of the more popular PM's until the Iraq war went sour. UK's voters are now seeing that the war was more complex than simply removing/destroying the WMDs that Saddam said he had. It also involved keeping the Third Axis of Evil in check, cleaning up the problems created by the UK et al in establishing various countries and boundaries in the Mideast and keeping a centuries' old blood feud between the Sunnis and Shiites in check.

A recent poll showed Blair's popularity has actually increased by 13%.

From Google (Blair)'Up 13% in popularity this week. See why on IMDbPro. ... www.imdb.com/name/nm0086363/

clearthinking1:

I do not think it proper to criticize Hinduism or any other religion for it is against the spirit of interfaith understanding.

But how do you reconcile with the actual practice of human inequality by birth among Hindus? Are Brahmans, kshatriyas, vaishs, shudras and the Dalits (the untouchables) equal by birth?

Don't tell me that the caste system has been outlawed since the Hindu Code bill was passed.
The caste is still alive and a dominant feature of Hindu society. Lallu Prasad Yadava and Atal Bihari Vajpayee are far apart in their social inequality and guide their followers to the perpetual inequality and the political scene in Indian politics.

Dowry was banned in India. But it is still given and taken. Young brides are still killed simply because they did not bring "enough" dowry. Cow urine is still drunk as a cure for all "ills".

So, before you criticize the Abrahamic faiths, you should understand the maxim: "Physician heal thyself."

There are a lot of progressive Hindus in India who understand that considering Hinduism above the Abrahamaic faiths is futile. The question that "Muslims can never say, "all religions are equal" is an exercise in futility.

CCNL:

Blair's popularity: article (one of many easily found on google.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/07/AR2006090700361_pf.html

HSNKHWJ:
You asked: "how do you expect any religion to claim that all religions are equal?"

Your confusion is understandable if you are a follower of an Abrahamic religion (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), which it seems that you are.

Fortunately, "religion" is a much larger concept than the Abrahamic Faiths have allowed it to be. For example, A Hindu can easily and rationally say that all religions are equal. This is because Hinduism is an old "religion" based on a spiritual philosophy called Vedanta ( plus local cultural rituals and mythologies which help communicate the philosophy of Vedanta in different ways to different people). Hinduism is different from what you might think of as a "religion". It is not a cult of personality that needs a founder like Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Mahavir, Guru Nanak, etc...

It is simply a profound spiritual philosophy of oneness and unity. Some may want to call this God or Ishwara etc. This allows for tolerance of different methods of spirituality. That is why you see on the Indian subcontinent over the millenia "Hindus" living with Buddhists, Jains, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Zorastrians, and nonbelievers. Christmas is celebrated, along with almost anything people want. No big deal.

So, your claim that religion and equality are contradictory (that's what oxymoron means) is incorrect. It is your narrow understanding of religion (Abrahamic cult) that leads you to believe that. The supremacist philosophy of these 3 religions (being chosen, one prophet supercedes, etc...) is the source of conflict. Whenever there is conflict due to religion, at least one of the parties is Muslim or Christian. Think about it objectively if you can.

The majority of people on earth are not of the Abrahamic faiths. They either have non supremacist and peaceful spiritual systems or are nonbelievers. With science, eduacation, and rational skepticism spreading, this trend will continue. Fundamentally, the concepts of unity are seeing a rebirth, through our understanding of physics and movements like environmentalism and vegetarianism. Just like slavery has slowly dissipated over the millenia, the enslavement of minds by cultish religions will dissipate with time.

Good luck in your personal spiritual evolution.

Darling, Darling, Darling,

You noted:
---------------------
"Read ANY British newspaper. Not just the articles, but the readers' letters and comments. From the leftist Guardian, to the conservative Telegraph, to the Times, the Independent, the Scotsman, the Glasgow Herald, and the papers in Ulster, Blair is universally loathed."

Your comment is not evidence that Tony Blair is despised by all those in the UK. All you have given is a list of UK newspapers. Polls please, with cited references where said poll was published and when.

CCNL :
Blair is despised in the UK??? Supporting references please
---------------------
Read ANY British newspaper. Not just the articles, but the readers' letters and comments. From the leftist Guardian, to the conservative Telegraph, to the Times, the Independent, the Scotsman, the Glasgow Herald, and the papers in Ulster, Blair is universally loathed.

He is often called Bliar, as in 'liar', a name he has earned.

The man is an opportunist.

Clearthinking:

"Muslims can never say this simple statement: "All religions are equal"
************************************************************

Your thought is anything but clearthinking. Your demand is an oxymoron. All religions claim that their message is universal. Since messages from these religions are not identical or are different, how do you expect any religion to claim that all religions are equal?

Christians believe that Jesus is son of God or is God. Muslims believe that Jesus was a human being but a messenger from God (prophet), and Jews do not accept Jesus as prophet or God. Hindus never heard of Jesus at the time of the Aryan invasion, 3000 years ago. Jesus was not even born then. Buddha was before Christ.

Sometimes deep-rooted prejudices of people lead them to ask irrational questions.

By the way, all human societies suffer from ethnocentrism--the belief that their ways of life are the best and others' are bizarre, strange, and unfit for human survival.

I grew up in a house of believers and grew up to believe something different. I realize now that the "anti" label, the very work nonbeliever, doesn't mean much. Is Humanist a better word? Maybe.

I'm certainly not anti to any religion as I, for lack of a better word, believe that these stories eminate from the very core and dawn of humanity, even when the stories are mixed with cruelty and evil. I know that that evil is in my own heart.

I discuss with my children the story of Jesus or Indra or Bhudda, especially when trying to make a moral point or discuss a life lesson. I don't know the Koran well enough to use it.

But I also draw a distinct line between the metaphorical stories and science. And the line that between the method that is science and scientific knowledge.

I am interfaith.

John Lennon - Instant Karma

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqP3wT5lpa4

Mr. Patel writes: "They talked about interfaith cooperation as an antidote to religious extremism."

This has become a sick joke. The problem is not good Muslims fighting with Jews, Christians, or Hindus. Good people are good.

The problem is good Muslims NOT fighting bad Muslims. The reasons are simple:
1. Good Muslims are afraid of being killed if they actually speak up strongly. This is why Eboo Patel-types prefer dialogue with people of other religions, not their own.
2. Islam (like Christianity) is inherently supremacist. For Muslims, conflict and violence are an acceptable means to an end. Their supremacist "thesis" collides with the "antithesis" (nonbelievers, kafirs,...) and leads to conflict and violence. All Muslims, inluding Eboo Patel, accept this conflict.

Muslims can never say this simple statement: "All religions are equal"

Just say it, Eboo. Just say it once, Mr. Ebrahim Patel. Please, just say "all religions are equal" to your fellow Muslims. We don't need to hear it from you, but your fellow Muslims do.

Blair is a phoney. They talk of faith as if that makes you a good person. Where were Blair's ethics and morals when he lied before the Iraq war. Yes knowing lied to start a war that killed tens or hundreds of thousands. The lies were plenty and visible, just ask Claire Short, etc... Remember when Heathrow was surrounded by missiles and shut down because Blair had information about Sadam's WMD. Remember the uranium from Niger forged documents from the British secret service. The list goes on. And now we are supposed to be impressed by Blair because he talks about faith.

Phoney talk of interfaith dialogue again. Address the real issues Mr. Patel and Mr. Blair. It is the supremacist attitiudues of Islam and Christianity that are the problem. That is the source of violence, not lack of faith.

Blair is despised in the UK??? Supporting references please!!!

Mr Patel, you do realise that Blair is commonly despised in the UK, don't you? And not just amongst Conservatives.

Muslim Reality 101 in 2009 for those eyes that have not seen including those of Blair and BO:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels"/"pretty wingie thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the massacre in Mumbai, the assassinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.