also one other point, which people often forget when talking about the 'settlements'.
the settlements are primarily on israel's high ground in the west bank, where they are very essential for preserving israel's capacity to defend itself as is the golan heights. in the 73 war, israel almost lost and she started the war with the entire west bank and the golan as well as sinai. she already gave up sinai for 'peace' at serious risk to herself. giving up the west bank or golan is very stupid from a strategic military point of view, especially the high ground in the middle, which slopes all the way down to tel aviv. the distances are tiny - very very tiny, and israel's waist would be almost non existent (i think it's less than 11 miles) without the west bank.
one of the reasons jews are in those areas is to protect the entire nation, besides the fact we believe it's the heart of Israel, and not 'occupied territory'. someone does not have to be an extremist to simply want to protect their country!

Eboo,
you say you aren't comparing jewish to muslim extremists, but then you go right ahead and do it.

and of course you forget to mention hindu extremists.

I don't think that jewish and muslim extremists are comparable. I don't know of any jews who advocate murdering muslims or converting them, their choice, as a matter of faith. judaism discourages converts and believes everyone can go to heaven. you don't get heaven by blowing up a bunch of innocent people, like the well over 100 suicide bus bombings in israel the past few years (not to mention all the other bombings) - you go to hell. you don't get virgins by murdering people - you get your soul ripped apart by G-d in the afterlife.

there are very legitimate self-defense issues the 'settlers' (who are on biblical land, btw) have with the palestinians who have been taking sniper shots at them on a very regular basis for a very long time, and often murdering their kids. that's a war, straight and simple, not a question of extremists. one could also make the case it always takes extremists to fight a war, but that would be a gross oversimplification of history as dumb as your article.

i'm not saying you don't mean well, though, you seem to, and thanks for that...

Farnaz- I hadn't read all of your former posts-
but this was another fact that couldn't go unanswered-
your comments-

"However, Israel has no money, and the six billion going to Mubarrak and friends... Why should tiny Israel be taking these refugees? Aren't there Christian and Muslim nations that could take them?

Cash will do nicely. While you're at it, bodies, gentile, to guard Christian sites and money for their upkeep would be good too."

How crass you are- why should I give Israel my money? We have given Israel 3 billion a year for 60 years- we break our own foreign aid laws in doing so (after 10 years- the graqvy train stops- no other country but Israel has ever been extended)
Our current aid to Egypt is 3, not 6 billion a year. Israel currently gets triple that- plus many many perks. Loans that never get paid back, weaponry etc.

Jan_Feb_2001 > A Conservative Total for U.S. Aid to Israel: $91 Billion--and Counting
Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, December 2000, Pages 15-16

Congress Watch

A Conservative Total for U.S. Aid to Israel: $91 Billion—and Counting

By Shirl McArthur
With the turmoil surrounding the presidential election essentially freezing Congress into inaction, this is probably a good time to take another look at aid to Israel. The common figure given for U.S. aid to Israel is $3 billion per year—$1.2 billion in economic aid and $1.8 billion in military aid. As impressive as this figure is, however, since it represents about one-sixth of total U.S. foreign aid, the true figure is even more remarkable. It is difficult, however, to arrive at an exact number. Much of the money the U.S. gives Israel is buried in the budgets of other government agencies, primarily the Defense Department (DOD). Other subsidies come in a form that isn’t easily quantifiable, such as the early disbursement of aid, which allows Israel to gain (and the U.S. taxpayer to lose) the interest on the unspent money.

This year’s appropriations bills for FY 2001, which began Oct. 1, 2000, include, in addition to the $2.82 billion in economic and military foreign aid to Israel, an additional $60 million in so-called refugee resettlement and $250 million in the DOD budget, plus $85 million imputed interest, for a total of at least $3.215 billion. In addition, on Nov. 14, 2000, President William Clinton sent a special request to Congress for an additional $450 million in military aid to Israel in FY 2001, plus $350 million for FY 2002.

The package also included $225 million in military aid for Egypt and $75 million in security assistance for Jordan. The $450 million for Israel is not included in these calculations, because it is unclear at this writing whether Congress will approve the package in the current political climate.

Calculating Total U.S. Aid
Unquestionably, Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. aid since World War II. Estimates for total U.S. aid to Israel vary, however, because of the uncertainties and ambiguities described above. An Oct. 27, 2000 Congressional Research Service (CRS) report, using available and verifiable numbers, gives cumulative aid to Israel from 1949 through FY 2000 (which ended Sept. 30, 2000) at $81.38 billion. On the other hand, last year the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs estimated total aid to Israel through FY 2000 at $91.82 billion.

The CRS number surely is too low, because, although it does include such things as the old food-for-peace program, the $1.2 billion from the Wye agreement, and the current subsidy for “refugee resettlement,” it does not include money from the DOD budget, on the grounds that those funds are for joint research and development projects. Nor does the CRS figure include estimated interest on the early disbursement of aid funds. Last year’s Washington Report estimate imputes an amount for “other aid” (including the DOD) that may no longer be valid, based as it is on a thorough study of three representative years. While this year’s estimate is more conservative, the results are still shockingly high.

To the CRS number of $81.38 billion through FY 2000 can be added (with details to follow):

• $4.28 billion from the DOD; and

• $1.72 billion in interest from early disbursement of aid, for a total of $87.38 billion through Sept. 30, 2000. To that can be added the $3.22 billion detailed above, giving a grand total of $90.6 billion total aid to Israel through FY 2001. Approval of Clinton’s special request for $450 million more in military aid would push the number over $91 billion.

Defense Department Funds
A search going back several years was able to identify $3.423 billion in specific DOD line items appropriated to Israel. Since that figure includes only the programs that were uncovered, it is reasonable to add 25 percent, or $856 million, to account for what was not found. The largest items in the DOD budget were $1.3 billion for the cancelled Lavi attack fighter project; $628 million for the ongoing Arrow anti-missile missile project; and $200 million for the completed Merkava tank. The fact that the U.S. military was not interested in the Lavi or the Merkava for its own use and has said the same thing about the Arrow would seem to invalidate the argument that these are “joint defense projects.”

Interest
Israel began receiving early disbursement of U.S. economic aid in 1982, and of military aid in 1991. It would be inaccurate to simply apply the rate of interest to the amount of aid, because it has to be assumed that the aid monies were drawn down over the course of the year. In 1991 it was reported that Israel earned $86 million in interest on the economic aid money deposited in the U.S. Treasury. Since the period from 1982 to 1991 was a time of relatively high interest rates, the figure of $860 million (86 x 10) seems a reasonably conservative estimate for those 10 years. For the nine years since 1991, a 6 percent rate was applied to one-half of the economic aid, for a total of $324 million over the past decade.

On the military aid, the 6 percent rate was applied to one-half of the military aid for the 10 years it has been disbursed early, for a total of $540 million.

Some Comparisons
The impressive numbers for U.S. aid to Israel become even more so when they, and the attached conditions, are compared with other Middle East countries. The roughly $3.3 billion in annual aid compares with some $2 billion for Egypt, $225 million for Jordan, and $35 million for Lebanon. Aid for the Palestinian Authority (PA) is not earmarked, but has been running at about $100 million. Furthermore, aid to the PA is strictly controlled by the U.S. Agency for International Development, and goes for specific projects, mostly civil infrastructure projects such as water and sewers.

On the other hand, the U.S. gives Israel all of its economic aid directly in cash, with no accounting of how the funds are used. The military aid from the DOD budget is mostly for specific projects. Significantly however, considering current events, one of those projects was the development of the Merkava tank, which has been encircling and firing on Palestinian towns in the West Bank and Gaza.

The only condition the congressional foreign aid bill places on military aid to Israel is that about 75 percent of it has to be spent in the U.S. In contrast with other countries receiving military aid, however, who purchase through the DOD, Israel deals directly with U.S. companies, with no DOD review.

Special mention should also be made of the details of the Wye agreement. All of the $400 million going to the PA under the agreement is economic aid, whereas all of the $1.2 billion for Israel is for military projects and programs. These include $40 million for armored personnel carriers and $360 million for Apache helicopters, again significant considering current events.

Loans, The “Cranston Amendment,” and Loan Guarantees
Currently, Israel owes the U.S. government almost $3 billion in economic and military loans. Direct government-to-government loans are included in the above numbers for total aid, because repayment of several loans has been “waived” by the U.S. Israeli officials are fond of saying that Israel has never defaulted on a loan from the U.S. Technically, this is true. The CRS report, however, notes that from FY 1994 through FY 1998 $29 billion in U.S. loans have been waived for Israel. Therefore, it is reasonable to consider all loans to Israel the same as grants.

There seems to be much confusion about the so-called “Cranston Amendment,” named after the California senator who sponsored it in 1984. The amendment said, simply, that it is “the policy and intention” of the U.S. to give Israel economic aid “not less than” the amount Israel owes the U.S. in annual debt interest and principal payments.

Since official economic aid to Israel has always been considerably higher than the annual debt repayments, this is something of a non-issue. Furthermore, since the amendment is simply a statement of policy and intent, it may not be legally binding. In any event, although the amendment was included in every aid appropriations bill through FY 1998, it has not been repeated in the FY 1999, 2000, and 2001 appropriations bills.

The amount of U.S. government loan guarantees to Israel was not included in the above numbers, because they have not cost the U.S. any money (yet), although they are listed as “contingent liabilities” (that is, they would become liabilities to the U.S. should Israel default). Nevertheless, they unquestionably have been of tangible financial benefit to Israel. The major loan guarantees issued by Washington have been $600 million for housing between 1972 and 1990; the much publicized $10 billion for Soviet Jewish resettlement between 1992 and 1997; and some $5 billion for refinancing military loans commercially. Currently, the total U.S. contingent liability for Israeli loans is about $10 billion.

The Neeman Agreement
After Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu told Congress in 1996 that he wanted to reduce the level of U.S. economic aid to Israel, Israeli Finance Minister Yaacov Neeman met with members of Congress in January 1998 to negotiate the details. After much backing and forthing, they reached agreement that Israel’s then-$1.2 billion in economic aid would be decreased annually, beginning FY 1999, by $120 million, and the $1.8 billion in military aid would be increased by half that, or $60 million.

As a little-reported part of the deal, the amount of military aid that Israel was allowed to spend in Israel would be increased by $15 million per year. From FY 1988 through 1990 Israel was allowed to use $400 million of its $1.8 billion U.S. military aid in Israel. Beginning in FY 1991 that was increased to $475 million. As a result of the Neeman agreement, beginning in FY 1999 the aid appropriations bill gave the amount to be spent in Israel as a percentage of the total, rather than a stated amount. This maneuver helped hide from U.S. defense contractors the fact that the U.S. direct subsidy to their Israeli competitors was being increased by $15 million per year. For FY 2001 the stated percentage works out to $520 million. None of this is included in the above figures, because it does not represent a direct cost to the U.S. taxpayers. It is clearly an indirect cost, however, in terms of lost tax revenue and lost business for American companies. X

Shirl McArthur, a retired foreign service officer, is a consultant in the Washington, DC area.

America owes you nothing. It is crude to think you can demand it.

Farnaz- It doesn't matter if there are mentions in selected reading- Jewish genetic scholars have decided through their 60 some studies that the Palestinians are indeed indigenous and properly placed in Modern Israel.

What are you going to do about the millions of displace Palestinians?

And by now, I would think you and Observer are chummy enough to use the familiar pronoun in your high school french exchanges.

Observer,

Merci pour votre commentaire. Ca fait toujours plaisir de vous lire--

A couple of my Pakistani friends fly to the US and other countries every month or two on business. The other three are academics with international reputations. One writes frequently for a major US newspaper. Visas would be no problem. The problem is that notwithstanding their sterling credentials, they chose to live in Pakistan. They are patriots, want to see a democratic country, etc.

Leaving for awhile would mean leaving their work, classes, etc., and taking their families, in a couple of cases their extended families with them. Removing the children from school, removing elderly parents from their culture...Easier said than done as you know, but it may have to come to that.

Thanks, Observe!

Farnaz

Oo- Francais de college- comme tout ordinaire!
(to quote Madeline Kahn)

Abhab:

From your original post:

The Midianites, Caananites, Amorites and Malakites are mythical people? They are mentioned in the Old Testament as well as in history books. Those are the ancestors of the present day Palestinians. Artifacts from their regions that identify them are found in almost every museum in the West. You have to be more careful of what you say if you wish to maintain your credibility.

October 7, 2008 10:45 PM

As of yet, you have given no evidence of the existence of these peoples, whom I submit were in all likelihood, mythical.

However, I am willing to go along with you that JOshua faught the Battle of Jericho and the walls came tumbling down with divine intervention. I am also willing to concede that Hashem, Baruch Hashem parted the Reeds Sea.

As for your more recent posts which have nothing to do with the Midianites, Caananites, Amorites and Malakites as described in the Bible (where are the Amorites?), I can tell you that you are using the original Jewish Encyclopedia which is dated and has been replaced. Albright who died in 1971 has been all but defeated in much of his thinking as you should know, but he too, makes a strong case for Biblical Israel and the thousands of years in which Jews are evident there.

There is no continuity between the peoples you mention and those who today call themselves Palestinians. Many of the ancient peoples, beginning with Ruth, if you'd like were converted. Mohammad was a sixth-to-seventh century prophet. That would be CE. Judaism is six thousand years old.

I've given you my view, but will accept yours. Abraham came from Iran and follow you all the way to Solomon. It is good to know we are finally where we belong.

NOW, what are you going to do about the American Indians? Unlike the Vietnamese and the Jews, they are displaced still, and genocide continues despite the treaties the AmeriChristians signed with them.

CCNL. Here are more cites that might meet your acceptance.

ALBRIGHT,WILLIAM F. The Archeology of Palestine and the Bible.
Cambridge, 1974. 250 pp (published in 2008 by Gorgias Press LLC))

Moab in Lakelux encyclopedia

‘We have two main sources for information on the Moabites, the Moabite Stone (left, now in Louvre, Paris, European Union, but found in Dhiban, Jordan in 1868) and numerous references in the Old Testament.”
http://i-cias.com/e.o/moab.htm

Midianites in JewishEncyclopedia.com
www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=585&letter=M
"Later, in the time of Tiglath-pileser (745-727 B.C.), a tribe, called in the cuneiform inscriptions "Ḥayapa" and identified by Friedrich Delitzsch ("Wo Lag das Paradies?" p. 304) with the tribe of Ephah, is said to have dwelt in the northern part of the Hejaz. Traces of the Midianites existed in post-Biblical times."
"Ptolemy ("Geography," vi. 7) mentions a place called Modiana, on the coast of Arabia; according to his statement of its position, this place may be identified with the Madyan of the Arabic geographers, in the neighborhood of 'Ain 'Una, opposite the extremity of the Sinaitic Peninsula, and now known under the name of "Magha 'ir Shu'aib" (= "the caves of Shu'aib" ["Jethro"])."

Caananites
1 "The Archeology of Palestine"
W. F Albright
Sold by: zahor_books

Ammonites in Catholic encyclopedia
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01431b.htm

Arameans
http://leb.net/~farras/aram.htm
And
Hitti, Philip K., History of Syria, Macmillan, 1951

McCurdy, History, Prophecy and the Monuments. published in 1901 - a bit dated considering the recent studies showing little or no evidence, text or archeology) of much of what is in the OT.

Ditto for the second reference published in 1899

Farnaz asserts:
“What you call the "Philistines" was the name given to the enemies of the Israeli tribes
by the Romans.”

From The Jewish Encyclopedia
“When did the Philistines migrate and seize their territory in this maritime plain (of Palestine)? The inscriptions of Rameses III., about Joshua's day, describe sea-peoples whom he met in conflict. Among these foreigners are found the Zakkal from Cyprus, and the Purusati (Pulusata, Pulista, or Purosatha). Both have Greek features; and the second are identified with the Philistines. In the inscription of this Egyptian king, they are said to have conquered all of northern Syria west of the Euphrates. It is known, too, that the successors of Rameses III. lost their Syrian possessions. It is supposed that during this period the Purusati, accompanied by their families, were pushed or crowded out of their homes by the national migrations from the northeast in Asia Minor, and, coming both by land and by sea, secured a foothold in southwestern Palestine. “
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=272&letter=P

CCNL; Here are two sources of evidence.
McCurdy, History, Prophecy and the Monuments. 1., §§ 192-194;
G. A. Smith. Historical Geography of the Holy Land, ch. ix.;

CCNL:

You are wrong. See Abhab's post.

Farnaz,

S'il vous plaît écrivez-moi bientôt.

Observer

The New York Times article, titled ‘As Rabbis Face Facts, Bible Tales Are Wilting,’ opens:

‘Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

‘Such startling propositions—the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years—have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity—until now.’

Bonsoir Farnaz!

Je suis désolé. J'ai été très occupé. An anthropologist friend just came back from Afghanistan. Report confirms your post on Pakistan. If your Pakistani friends can get visas,maybe they should leave for awhile.

Glad that Joshua and battle of Jericho, parting of the Reeds Sea confirmed!

Do you know anything about this slimy, semi-literate bigot Astoria? Maybe someone could suggest a special needs program for him.

Take care.

Observer

Maybe you just have never learned anything aobut the Palestinian people.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/

Here is another link for you to ignore- I have too much respect for the people here to cut and paste.

Farnaz- your calls for proof fall pretty flat when you refuse to look at the evidence.
One gets the feeling that it is not the truth you want proven, only your truth.
TSK TSK


In 1997, Karl Skorecki in Haifa, Michael Hammer in Tucson and several London researchers surprised everyone by finding evidence of the Jewish priestly line of males, the Kohanim. Half of Ashkenazic men and slightly more than half of Sefardic men who claimed to be Kohanim were found to have a distinctive set of genetic markers on their Y chromosome, making it highly possible that they are descendants of a single male or group of related males who lived between 1180 and 650 B.C.E., about the time ABOUT THE TIME OF MISES AND AARON. The Kohen marker is but a fragment of the information gleaned from DNA analysis... A study published last year in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science looked at the Y chromosomes of 1,371 males from seven Jewish population groups and came up with a profile of Jewish genes. They found 13 major Y-chromosome patterns or signatures, called haplotypes. 'The haplotypes of all but Ethiopian Jews shared a similar pattern,' says Ostrer, a member of the study team led by Hammer and Batsheva Bonne-Tamir of Tel-Aviv University. 'This means we are not descended from one person or 12 tribes but 13 FOUNDER MALES.' The SAME 13 HAPLOTYPES, by the way, are common among Middle Eastern Arabs including Palestinians and Syrians. They also show up in Greeks and other ancient Mediterranean lines, who may date from the time before Jews emerged as a people... 'We are definitely Jews,' says Ostrer. 'We share Jewish haplotype patterns.'

Christopher Hitchens. "The Part-Jewish Question: Double the Pleasure or Twice the Pain? Of 'Semi-Semites' and Those Who Fear Them." Forward (January 26, 2001). Excerpts:

"Recent advances in DNA testing have either simplified or complicated the claims of holy books and founding texts. A riveting recent essay in Commentary described the results of a match-up between the genetic database of the Kohanim - those whose Jewish ancestry is supposedly the strongest and best-attested - and that of a "lost tribe" in Namibia that has long claimed Jewish descent. The fit was amazingly close. So it is with other groups in the Asian diaspora, many of whose folk stories had been thought to be merely legendary. It also turns out that there is a CLOSE DNA AFFINITY BETWEEN ISRAELI JEWS AND PALESTININAN ARABS... How long before we can codify Khazar DNA and find out if Koestler was right or if the Ashkenazim have any genetic claim to Gaza? (The learned author of the Commentary article, eventually concluded that enough was enough already, and that better uses could be found for the research money than the infinite theoretical expansion of the prolific seed of Abraham.)"

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-jews.html

Lets have a look the real History of The Promised Land.

3000 BC - Early Bronze Age
2200 BC - Middle Bronze Age
1800 BC - Alalakh VII culture
1500 BC - Mittani Kingdom
1400 BC - Ugarit Period
1300 BC - Hebrew
1200 BC - Philistines and Judges(Jews)
1000 BC - David and Solomon,Temple
800 BC - Fall of Samaria
700 BC - Hezekiah
600 BC - Fall of Jerusalem,Babylon Captivity
500 BC - Nehemiah,Ezra
400 BC - Alexander,Seleucids
200 BC - Macchabees
100 BC - Collapse of Selecuids
AD - Destruction of Jerusalem
AD-637 - Romans(West and East)
637-1099 -Umayyad(Son of Livereater cannibal Hint) and Abbasids
1099-1187 - Crusaders
1187-1514 - Abbasids and Egypt domination
1514-1920 - Ottoman period
1920-1948 - England Administration

This is the real History of Promised Land.
Promised Land ! Indisputable
Temple.Of course,Jewish Temple.

CCNL:

You see, Hashem gave this land to the tribes of Israel as the Captain here shows. What else is there to say? We need not argue from limited evidence, i.e., Eretz Israel existed since David, that the Temple is, of course, Solomon's, that we have inhabited the land at least from the Davidic period. No. Hashem, Baruch Hashem, parted the Reeds Sea....

The Midianites, Caananites, Amorites and Malakites are mythical people? They are mentioned in the Old Testament as well as in history books. Those are the ancestors of the present day Palestinians. Artifacts from their regions that identify them are found in almost every museum in the West. You have to be more careful of what you say if you wish to maintain your credibility.

October 7, 2008 10:45 PM |

Ashab, Ashab, Ashab,

Your history/geography "lesson" had no references supporting your statements. Please provide.

CCNL:

Look at what happens when you're away from the blog.
You missed the posts explaining that Joshua fought the battle of Jericho, and the walls came tumbling down.

abhab

Captain, resorting to name calling when you lack evidence grows old and wearisome. Last post to you until you come up with what we generally refer to as evidence. What you call the "Philistines" was the name given to the enemies of the Israeli tribes
by the Romans.

Jews were in Eretz Israel throughout the exile by the Romans and imperialist slaughters by Christians, Mohammadans, Christians, and Muslims.

I am sorry you have no compassion for the Palestinian Christians. However, Israel has no money, and the six billion going to Mubarrak and friends, whose persecution of the Egyptian Palestinians is very well known, isn't helping to defray expenses. Why should tiny Israel be taking these refugees? Aren't there Christian and Muslim nations that could take them?

Have you been helping to defray expenses for taking them? I'm not asking for tear croccodile or otherise. Cash will do nicely. While you're at it, bodies, gentile, to guard Christian sites and money for their upkeep would be good too.

Meantime, rights of Persian, Egyptian, Iraqi, Syrian, Yemini, etc. Jews must be addressed. We want our homes, temples restored. We want memorials for those murdered. I want one for Ismael. We are three million. My taxes and yours, if you pay them, are indirectly going there.

There are Jews in Iraq "liberating" that country. Does that make sense? Does maintaining relations of any sort with cesspools like Saudi Arabia which funds Madrassahs, exports terrorism, publishes all kinds of racist filth against Jews and Christians?

Meantime, you may not care about Palestinian Christians, the Christians imprisoned in Pakistan, the few Christians in Iran, the imperiled Bahai in Iran, etc., etc., etc., but many Christians do care. They care about the sweepers. They care about the martyrs. They care.

You see, Captain, it's not all about vous.

**Believers,never let the hatred of a people toward you move you to commit injustice*5.8

Justice in islam/submission means Shariah Laws,nothing else.Islam/submission doesnt know what Contemporary Justice is.
What *justice* means in submission,*man can take four women and whenever he likes,he can kick out them*
What *justice* means in *bedouin mentality*,*submission followers/muslims excel non-muslims/infidels*
Justice is Shariah such as in Saudi Arabia,not Cotton Princess tale as written by some of American Indians(Indian means,one from India.American Indian called Red Indian)

**When we vilify the *other*,that bias becomes bigotry**.Yes,correct.It's very nice *Alice in Wonderland* word.

*I(Allah) will cast FEAR/TERROR into the hearts of those who disbelieve(non-muslim) 8.12
How can we interprete this verse ?

Dear Readers,

Islam/submission is the name of the Cult in Saudi Arabia,Iran(islamic republic),Afghanistan etc.,not *Alice in Wonderland* Utopia.
According to Bedouin's Mentality,US/America is the Land of War and *true believer muslims* must take part to Holy War against Infidels.

*Peace* is not possible in Land of War.

Halozcel

There is a disconnect in your reasoning Farnaz.
You have stated proudly that you are an atheist- arguing extensively for it on Jacoby and ither blogs.
The Zionists who founded the modern state of Israel wee also proud atheists.

Yet, you conveniently fall back on religious reasoning and texts to support your position.

We all have biases- tht is expected and normal-
but when we vilify the "other", that bias becomes bigotry.
And bigotry is a difficult thing to justify to reasonable people.

Also- the Israeli government has extended a handsome financial package to Iranian Jews, to emigrate to Israel. They have declined (25,000 of them) and are content to stay in their homes. (source Haaertz)

If you feel this alienated and prejudiced against in America, why would you not go to Israel?
Mind you- it makes no whiff of difference to me- stay or go as you please- but- surely this must have crossed your mind.
I would argue that the slightest whiff of anti-semitism- no matter how slight- gets pounced on and hit with a bag of hammers, while Islamophobia is considered not only acceptable now- but encouraged as patriotic, and proof of love of country.

I have seen a few prejudices come and go into vogue in America.
This too, will pass.

I notice you also had no comment on the extensive report posted for your benefit.
As my grandmother used to say,
"Be careful for what you ask for, you just might get it."

I hope you realize that America is a friendly lan- and there are more friends out there than potential enemies.
Peace

Arminius- Yes, history certainly shows the march of the Turks- and that study proves it from a genetic POV- which is always nice when history and scince are in harmony.

Farnaz;
History 101 FYI

The following tribes lived in the following regions relative to the Dead Sea. The Midianites; south, the Moabites: east, the Ammonites; northeast. The Arameans north of the Sea of Galilee, the Canaanites throughout the mountainous regions of historical Palestine and Lebanon. The Philistines on the coastal region of Palestine. All those tribes were there long before some Hebrew tribe wandered in there from Egypt in 1400BC, were there during the Hebrews stay and after they wandered back out in 70 AD.
The Canaanites and Philistines are the ancestors of present day Palestinians as well as the Lebanese. The Ammonites are the ancestors of present day Jordanians and the Arameans the ancestors of present day Syrians.
The present day Palestinians as well as all those mentioned above became Arabised after the Arabs invaded that whole region in the 7th Century. Arabised in the since that they adopted the Arabic language and culture and many the Arabs religion. The Turks ruled that area since the 16th Century till the early part of the 20th Century. The Turks were interested in the Near East only as a source of revenue and had no impact whatsoever on the culture of the people of that region.
The Zionists in their effort to gain the world public opinion for establishing a Jewish state in Palestine preached that Palestine was empty of people. Their motto was “people with no land for land with no people’. As late as 1973 Golda Meier, the prime minister of the Jewish state, declared that there are no Palestinians. The United Nations and Relief Agency (UNRWA) lists the name of over 6 million refugees from among the Palestinians.
Shedding crocodile tears over the Palestinian Christians is simply fishing in murky waters. Did Israel differentiate between the Christian, Muslim or Atheist Palestinians when it massacred many of them and evicted the rest from their homes and from their lands?

A Christian or Jewish extremist can and do exist in any tent, however a Muslim Extremist WILL explode taking with him everyone and the tent. Christian and Jewish extremists do fly easily in planes however we cannot fly in a commercial plane with a loaded ready to explode Muslim Extremist, every time we fly we are reminded of that aren’t we?

Sorry, but Christian and Jewish extremists are not interchangeable. We have not blown up the offices of doctors who perform abortions. We do not insist that the government teach "Intelligent Design," etc. We give money without asking for conversion.

We now have in Israel some fundamentalists, courtesy, of Palestinian Muslim terrorists, Muslim terrorists from other nations, the United States of America, and, of course, Europe. Indeed the racist filth of Muslim nations was exported to those countries by the Euro and AmeriChristians. Now, it has been Islamicized.

Just leave us the f*ck alone, give us access to our Temple, and all will be fine.

"There is no such thing as your extremists or my extremists, Jewish extremists or Muslim extremists. There are only extremists."

Extremists exist in every religion/cult, however it is necessary to distinguish to what religion/cult a particular Extremist belongs to and how he executes his extremism.

There is only one extremist who takes his battle to anyone and everyone including his/her own co-religionist and that Extremist folks is the Muslim Extremist following the Koran, his Muslim leaders, his imams, and above all else his prophet Mohammed.

A Christian or Jewish extremist can and do exist in any tent, however a Muslim Extremist WILL explode taking with him everyone and the tent. Christian and Jewish extremists do fly easily in planes however we cannot fly in a commercial plane with a loaded ready to explode Muslim Extremist, every time we fly we are reminded of that aren’t we?

Btw.,

Jews go back millennia in other countries in the Middle East pre Mohammed as the Qu'ran shows. When do we three million get our rights back? Our homes restored? Our temples restored? Etc., Etc., Etc.

Just wondering....

Arminius,

I have no wish to argue with you about this Turkish and Turkic matter. I will say that even were I to concede and I don't it would mean nothing. Many Palestinians came to Turkey during the conquest, can trace their lineage to that event, and are very proud of it.

The point is the Mohammed was a sixth-seventh century CE prophet and the religion did not come into being immediately. Judaism in originated six thousand years ago, although it has gone through many incarnations. Jews remained in Eretz Israel after the Romans, Mohammedans, Christians, Muslims, Christians, and Muslims again.

They remained along with their Muslim brothers and sisters, while the Christian nights were walking in their blood and bone up to their ankles.

This is not the case with the Native Americans. This was and rightfully is their land. Stolen from them by the EuroChristians, then by the AmeriChristians, as all stand by and watch their genocide.

Of course, the Christians should vacate the continent, return the southwest, Texas, etc. to the Mexicans. Of course. Then the rest of us should vacate. Let me know the date, and I'll sign up. In the meantime it would be nice if you at least worked on stopping the genocide and honoring your treaty obligations.

As for us J people, you want to talk history? Then there is no argument as I have shown. And Palestinians need to vacate Eretz Israel, and much of JOrdan needs to be returned. Israel has not asked for that. In fact if you recall they have dismantled settlements.

The have displaced there own people. One set herself on fire as was shown on TV. The Palestinian "Authority" demanded that all the homes, schools, infrastructure the Israelis had built be destroyed. WHY? And so? What is there now? Nothing.

You want to end the conflict? Well Yasir Arafat doesn't have a wife to pay off anymore, to keep silent about his white blond boyfriends. However, if you go tooling about in Palestine you will see four mercedes in any number of garages while people starve. No one can stop the corruption, honor killings, torture that goes on there except the Palestinians.

Unlike them, Jewish fundamentalism did not develop until the 1970s, when the US forced the Israelis to give ARafat safe passage out of Syria when Israel was nine miles from Damascus. That was during the famous Yom Kippur War about which more later. I will say that the US FORCED ISRAEL TO GIVE ASSISTANCE TO THE TRAPPED EGYPTIAN THIRD ARMY so that they could go on killing Jews. That did breed more extremists.

Finally, you had close to the last straw, but not quite which was Yasir Arafat, blond pre-teen in tow, talking about peace at the UN while a busload of children was being murdered. Children were deliberately targeted and killed. It's a specialty of some people.

Of course there's much more. The Clinton plan. For two thousand years Jews have prayed facing Yeruashalyem, the site of Solomon's Temple. Yet you see what happened when Sharon went there to pray. End of peace plan.

Last point. When MOshe Dyan won the Six Day War in 1967, he held the Temple. Jews everywhere rejoiced. They could return. But the AmeriChristians and EuroChristians said no. It would upset Exxon, BP, the oil producing nations. They don't want to share the site. AND DAYAN LEFT.

Every day in every way Palestinian terrorists and corrupt officials make more Jewish fundamentalists. It is their contribution to Judaism. And Christian oil interests, nothing personal, have contributed to the problem. Every time a child is killed, a promise is broken, an Israeli learns about the racist filth not only in the Middle East, but here and in Europe, fundamentalists are born.

MOst Israelis are still clueless about the anti-Jewish racism in the US. They know something about France because in the last twenty years they have taken in French Jewish refugees. They know a little about some other countries.

Now, many Jews are trying desperately to let them know what this country is doing and has done, much worse than even most Americans know. More later.

Astoria (Victoria?),
"Farnaz-
You'll notice, if you investigate- that contrary to your assertion that the Turkic people were the progenitors of the modern Palestinians- that they are a distict and separate geneological group with different roots than the modern palestinians."

Right you are. The Turks, in two waves, came late on the scene, beginning sometime in the 9th or 10th century AD/CE. They came from Central Asia, the area probably where all the 'Stans are now. Their language is in no manner related to either Hebrew or Arabic. Those two languages are, however, related. The Turks did take over most of the area, but there is no evidence that any settled in any number in Palestine.

Farnaz-
You'll notice, if you investigate- that contrary to your assertion that the Turkic people were the progenitors of the modern Palestinians- that they are a distict and separate geneological group with different roots than the modern palestinians.
there is more than ample geentic proof supplied here.
You will also notice that the Iranian Jews were incldued in various studies. It is really an interesting compilation, and when I have time- I intend to read more.

O, and for the record, these were all Jewish scholars who made these findings.

Now, before you kneejerk and pooh pooh this particular study and it's findings- remember- there are 59 others listed in that link-

I find that when I have a visceral response to any given disagreeable data or assertion- that it us often an opportunity to reflect on just what makes myself tick-

Generally- I goggle the position of the offensive (to my own viscera) assertion to see if there is actually any merit in the contention.
Then I google what I already know to exist- (as in the case of this study.) And what my own assertions are based upon.

Sometimes I find that my own ideas are not actually formed by real scientific or verifiable input- but a subjective desire to find only data that confirms my own personal bias, and reject those that confront or disprove it.

But, at some point- reason takes over, and even opposite proofs, that make me personally uncomfortable- must be taken into account.
Instead of outright rejecting what is contrary to my own worldview- sometimes I try to incorporate the new information into my own knowledge base- and evolve my own world view as I learn more.

I'm surprised you don't remeber these studies Farnaz-
there are at least 60 separate links within the page linked.

COLD SPRING HARBOR, NEW YORK--As fighting continues in the Middle East, a new genetic study shows that many Arabs and Jews are closely related. More than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the SAME PATERNAL ANCESTORS who lived in the region within the last few thousand years.

The results match historical accounts that some Moslem Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel and the Sinai. They were DESCENDANTS OF A CORE POPULATION THAT LIVED IN THE AREA SINCE PREHISTORIC TIMES. And in a recent study of 1371 men from around the world, geneticist Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona in Tucson found that the Y chromosome in Middle Eastern Arabs was almost indistinguishable from that of Jews.

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-jews.html

"Believers, never let the hatred of a people toward you move you to commit injustice." (Qur'an 5:8)

abhab:

The people of Greater Syria? By this I assume you don't mean present-day Lebanon?

Please specify what you mean, specify which excavations have resulted in evidence of the existence of the peoples you mentioned, any evidence of continuity with them and inhabitants of present-day Israel or Palestine.

Many scholars not only on this blog, but the world scholars would be interested in such claims supported by evidence. A couple of the members of Asor, I know. I have never seen them make the claims you do. As I mentioned, there are unexcavated sites. There are also sites that in the last thirty years have been destroyed, more's the great, great pity, Captain, but thus far, the evidence doesn't exist.

There is only one central question that must be answered and it does not concern the topic we're discussing.

BUT, CCNL, take note, just in case.

Eboo, I think you misunderstand J.Edgar Hoover's comment. Keeping the extremists in the tent is a way of keeping them under lock and key. This is why Israel had such a hard time deciding whether to outlaw Meir Kahana's Kach party. On the one hand, you don't want to admit that you have extremists, on the other, you need to contain them.
It was a mistake when the United Nations excluded South Africa because it left them out of the debate. What we need is engagement with our moral enemies. It sounds like you want them Israelis to cut loose their settlers and not take responsibility for them. I would advocate real engagement, not just infrequent rebukes, but holding them to Israeli law. If this were the case, they wouldn't live on most of the land they occupy, they would find much of their leadership in jail and they would not be able to harass Palestinians or members of the Israeli left.
Othering the moral enemy and disengaging from them is a way of setting the ground for military action against them. This should be the last resort of civilized nations.

Farnaz says:
“First, these are MYTHs in the TANAKH. Although some sites remain to be excavated, there is, at present, no credible biblical scholar who has identified any textual or archaeological evidence to demonstrate that they(Caananites, Midianites, Amalekites) are not mythic.”

Below are some of the recent books published by ASOR (American Society of Oriental Research) on the archeological finds of the people of the Greater Syria.

Cult Image and Divine Representation in the Ancient Near East
edited by Neal H. Walls
ASOR Books volume 10

The Tafila-Busayra Archaeological Survey 1999-2001, West-Central Jordan
by Burton MacDonald, Larry G. Herr, M. P. Neeley, T. Gagos, K. Moumani and M. Rockman

100 Years of American Archaeology in the Middle East
edited by Douglas R. Clark and Victor H. Matthews

Archaeology and the Religions of Canaan and Israel
by Beth Alpert Nakhai
ASOR Books volume 7

Contact Information
The American Schools of Oriental Research
825 Houston Mill Road
Atlanta, GA 30329
Phone: (404) 727-8989
Fax: (404) 727-4719
Email: asorpubs@asor org

How the extremist get their financil funds and weapons? The west and others have gotten rich because of selling the weapons to them. Guess who was topping the list to supply arms to BOTH Iran & Iraq at the same time during the wars? Who left the weapon behind in Afghansitan?Strange ppl talk about one, two, three person been beheaded or executed but not the nefarious hidden hands of the one responsible for million deads? Black sheeps inside the tent

Hi Observer,

I've already gotten a couple of emails. It looks like it won't play well. Maybe, he's got some strategy in mind. I don't know. From what I gathered, the last time Obama did this it caused an uproar throughout the country, even among the intelligentsia, which supports him. Frankly, they'd like the end of what's going on at the border, but things are very complex. They don't want to see more innocent people killed, and they don't like hearing that the US will simply step in if they think it's in their interest to do so. (Who would?)

They see what we don't see on television in Iraq. They're very angry at the horror. As well, there is a huge Pashtun population in Pakistan now, Zardari has already done some odd things and they fear internal conflicts will increase. To top it all off, many believe he's responsible for the killing of his wife Benazir Bhutto. Violence of every conceivable kind is constant. This is the first time I've heard my friends say they're living in a "failed state." The bottom line is that people are scared of politico-religious violence, criminal violence, an unstable government--you name it. There is a sense I get from friends that something horrible is looming on the horizon,something worse than what they've yet seen. And they have seen a lot.

I've got to log off, Observer. Have a good night.

Farnaz

Obama has stated his stance on Pakistan at length before- observer- so the reactions are already long in.

Farnaz,

Did you watch the debate? If so, what did you think about it? You've got friends in Pakistan. What did you think about his threat? How will it play there?

Excellent points Arminius and Sparrow, and actually on topic too-
I agree- I don't believe Mr. Patel was equating the outward manifestations we all focus on- the religion,race- the class- or many many divisions that separate one group from another-

He was speaking to the similar violence of intention in their minds and hearts- the extremism is not one of polarized swings between a philosophy- but an extremity of love to hatred-
an inner intention-

The Amish are an excellent example- the way they interpret and manifest their social codes may be a far conservative extreme-
but they share a gentleness of heart, and benign intention.

Rather than worrying about what clothing or place a person represents- the extremists really are similar in their own inner chaos- and desire to spread discord and violent chaos-
the target they choose is just an outlet- and if they were born in a different place- the target would change- but their inner violence would remain.

As Arminius points out, and Islam concurs- any assault against any innocent is despicable.

Bonsoir Observer!

You mean, where do some bloggers come from? Je n'ai aucune idée.

I guess I wonder about what they've been exposed to, their access to knowledge, their judgment, the extent to which they've been encouraged to think critically, etc.

Bonsoir Farnaz!

Good posts. From under which rocks to they come?

Ahab-

"Those are the ancestors of the present day Palestinians. Artifacts from their regions that identify them are found in almost every museum in the West. You have to be more careful of what you say if you wish to maintain your credibility."

First, these are MYTHs in the TANAKH. Although some sites remain to be excavated, there is, at present, no credible biblical scholar who has identified any textual or archaeological evidence to demonstrate that they are not mythic.

If you know of one, then please state his/her name, university affiliation, and titles of works in which evidence figures. Please specifiy the nature of the evidence.

Second, if these peoples ever existed, they would bear no relation whatsoever to the present day Palistinians, most of whom are Turks who entered during the great conquest. There were those who came earlier came in the Middle Ages. Mohammed, Captain, was a seventh-prophet.

Judaism had its origins six thousand years ago, i.e, five thousand years before said prophet. Jews were in Israel and some continued there despite the continued invasions.

Normally, I don't respond to nonsense. I'm assuming you've done no research whatsoever, have no historical knowledge of the region. Still, one must always entertain, give the benefit of the doubt.

AGAIN, provide credible university affiliated sources with references that these TANAKH nations existed. Specify the type of evidence and disciplinary response.

THEN, show credible university affiliated sources with references that said nations are the ancestors of anyone. Include the nature of the evidence (archaeological, textual, genetic, etc.) and references on the disciplinary reception of this "evidence."

At this point, I cannot truthfully say to you what you have said to me about credibility. What I can honestly say is that at this point you need not worry about losing your credibility since you have none to lose.

Farnaz2 says:
"We" cannot reminisce since these are mythic peoples and mythic events.”

The Midianites, Caananites, Amorites and Malakites are mythical people? They are mentioned in the Old Testament as well as in history books. Those are the ancestors of the present day Palestinians. Artifacts from their regions that identify them are found in almost every museum in the West. You have to be more careful of what you say if you wish to maintain your credibility.

Garak writes:

Yes, and as we go down the Old Testament Memory Lane, we can reminisce about the Midians, the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the good people of Jericho.

"We" cannot reminisce since these are mythic peoples and mythic events. YOU may be able to recall if you are psychotic.

The Quarayza Jews however were as real as Benazir Bhutto, as real as the Christians jailed in Pakistan, as real as the gun runners in Kashmir, as real as the Ismael murdered in the street by the Iranian National guard while being "taken into "custody" by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, as we wathced, as I as a child, watched.

As real as the three million Middle Eastern Jews in exile, as real as the imperiled Bahai, as real as the raped women killed by their brothers for having been raped, as real as 9/11.

Bien sur, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...sauvage toujours

Sparrow,

I think it was 9/11 that really fixed terrorism on extremism, or fanaticism as it were.

Any violence done as an assault against innocents in the name of any cause is despicable. Of course, the assailants will redefine 'innocents'. According to Al Qaida, anyone opposed to their twisted vision is an enemy. Likewise, anyone opposed to Christian dominionism is the enemy of the dominionists, and, if they could, would 'eliminate' such 'enemies'.

I am no pacifist, and am quite ready to fight violence with violence, in defense. But I do NOT want it to come to that, any more than it has....

No more. This is depressing.

A good question, arminius. I did think that as I wrote but I still think that while I would call the Amish extremely religious, I always thought labeling someone an extremist implies a degree of violence and willingness to do harm in the name of your cause.

People here seem to think there are degrees of extremism, that if you shoot an unarmed Palestinian because he might be a bomber instead of a man who wants his ancestor's olive grove back, that somehow you're a cut above Al Qaeda. I don't hold with that at all. While Muslim terrorists may seem predominant in the present time, every religion has something to be ashamed of. And there is no good cause that will survive extremism. Extremists are not good. Period. And the rest of us suffer for it.

Farnaz wrote:

"As we go down the Q'ranic Memory Lane, perhaps we can reminisce about the genocide of the Qurayza Jews.

"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...."

Yes, and as we go down the Old Testament Memory Lane, we can reminisce about the Midians, the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the good people of Jericho.

Bien sur, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...

Mr Patel, lets face it, comparing Israels "militant settlers" to muslim extremists is like comparing Ivan the Terrible to Rebecca of Sunnybrook farm. Who are the people cutting off heads on video? Who are the ones planting bombs anywhere and everywhere they are? Who are the ones grabbing Christians from their shops in Iraq, Thailand, Malaysia and Pakistan and executing them? Are these people doing these things to protect their homes? No, they are exhibiting typical muslim supremist attitudes. Nice try.

Hi, Sparrow,

Doesn't it depend on the definition of extremism? We now associate it with violence and terrorism, but that is not necessarily so. Many extremist Christians are not violent, just horribly obnoxious - their danger comes in the form of politics. And look at the Amish - in their own way, they are extremists. But a gentler, more forgiving people you will not find anywhere. And they are not political at all.

Isn't it ludicrous to even be discussing "levels" of extremism? Which proponent of extremism is worse than the other? Because I guarantee you, to the people who are beaten, wounded,see their families and businesses destroyed,or are driven out of their homes and country, it still feels goddam pretty much the same, no matter who is doing it.

Mr. Patel was not comparing terrorists to equate them- he is simply and honestly stating that all extremists are alike- destructive, murderous, and pretty much insane.face it- anyone willing to kill innocents to promote their own agenda is an extremist. You may want to make excuses for one group or another- that just makes you an advocate. And just as guilty.

Although religious extremism is to be rejected at all levels, there remains a strong difference between religious extremism that is a global movement happy to engage in mass murder, and local diffuse acts of religious extremism. A religious extremism that knows no local boundaries, wishes to export its extremist ideology as far as possible, and acts far outside the accepted boundaries of civilized behavior remains qualitatively different from manifestations of such extremism contained within a local community. Both should be fought from within the communities they originate, but one is significantly more dangerous to the world community and peace than the other. The one with global ambitions that uses mass murder as a tool must also be fought by the secular forces whose goal is to protect everyone.

Excellent commentary. Extremism is the true enemy and unfortunately it infects people of all faiths.

stephanemot : "Back then, Palin already used canned answers to dodge the key issues : "I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum"

If you look at the core of the proposition, it means : stop making this teaching illegal, leave it up to the teacher.

Palin is not a closet evolutionist : she is a hardcore theocon, but a careful one. After the publication of the Discovery Institute's Wedge document, no politician can promote ID without risking his/her career.

Palin perfectly illustrate the new creationist agenda : we have taken into account the failure of our Intelligent Design imposture, and we understand that we cannot be too pushy these days, but our priority is to make sure some door is somewhat opened for the next waves.

The only evolution Palin will ever accept is from democracy to theocracy." October 4, 2008 8:23 PM

Brakes tapered with, statetrooper report completed, keep building my case, thanks

"Oh, that's right! They already have."

I meant some type of exile from the rest of the planet. Imagine Andrea Dworkin and Beverly LaHaye marooned together.

Eboo,

Here is some food for thought for you and your deceptive doctrine on Muslim terrorists. Forget the Red Mosque incident in Islamabad. Read this from DAWN, the most widely read English daily from Pakistan.

The headline is:

Suicide bomber sows terror in Bhakkar, attacks MNA: At least 22 killed, 62 injured

The link is

http://www.dawn.com/2008/10/07/top1.htm

Perverted Mohammedan orgy, or is it not ?

"I've long wanted the extremists in any dispute, religious or secular, to focus on each other and leave everyone else out of it."

Me too. Maybe al-Quaeda and Hamas could get together and chat. Oh, that's right! They already have. Eyes up! Bombs away!

Love it! Excellent commentary.

Excellent column by Patel. I've long wanted the extremists in any dispute, religious or secular, to focus on each other and leave everyone else out of it. I would break my rule about reality shows if Survivor did a season using that premise.

Praise to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Jesus said: "I am the way, I am the truth, I am the Life."
When you have one standard, there is a way to find the truth.
There is only one way for true discernment of each situation of one's life. Through Jesus Christ we are individuals and not part of some ethic or cultural group. We the believer's of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and has a Savior who died for us. He was born, He lived, He died, and He rose from the dead. He is waiting for us in heaven. Through the Prophets we have a proven living document called The Bible. God loves you. You don't have to die for God, God died for you. Though him you have a purpose, though the free-will God created us with
The apostle John tells us: "Perfect Love casts out fear". St. Paul tells us: We are all over comers through Jesus Christ, in whatever life we are in. The Bible is the one truth. The modern day scholar Simon Greenleaf from Harvard University took this to task and proved this truth. Come to Jesus though your free will while you can.

Praise to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Jesus said: "I am the way, I am the truth, I am the Life."
When you have one standand, there is a way to find the truth.
There is only one way for true discernment of each situation of one's life. Through Jesus Christ we are individuals and not part of some ethic or cultural group. We the believer's of the God of Abraham, Issaac, and Jacob, and have a Savior who died for us. He was born, He lived, He died, and He rose from the dead. He is waiting for us in heaven. Through the Phophets we have a proven living document called The Bible. God loves you. You don't have to die for him, he died for you. Though him you have a purpose, though the free-will God created us with
The apostle John tells us: "Perfect Love casts out fear". St. Paul tells us: We are all over comers through Jesus Christ, in whatever life we are in. The Bible is the one truth. The modern day scholar Simon Greenleaf from Harvard University took this to task and proved this truth. Come to Jesus though your free will while you can.

AWWW- I came back because it was so reasonable in here before- why do the haters and islamophobes always come and ruin it?

Well, Mr. Patel, we have any number of requests for your thoughts: the Q'ranic representations of Christians and Jews, the genocide of the Q'rayza Jews (plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose), the three million Jews in exile from the Middle EAst, the Christians who fled from there and the persecution of those who remain, the imperiled Bahai, the Christian sweepers of Pakistan, etc., etc.

Lest I forget, please also comment on the slave-trade in FATA, elsewhere in feudal Pakistan, the bombings in India, the gun-running in Kashmir....

And if your privileged Indian-American Muslim self gives the slightest darn about what you described as the "heinous assassination of Benazir Bhutro," then learn something about the history of Pakistan, and do comment on what the entire country believes, that her husband, soon to be sworn in President, Zardari was her murderer.

A lot of Pakistanis are not very happy about that. And since you care so deeply....

Eboo,

We are still waiting for your comments about the common/non-extremist Muslim as described by Ayaan Hirsi Ali in her book, Infidel.

Some examples since you are not allowed to read the book.

p. 47 paperback issue:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

p. 347

"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

As we go down the Q'ranic Memory Lane, perhaps we can reminisce about the genocide of the Qurayza Jews.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose....

Arminius wrote:

"A universal law: an extremist is an extremist, regardless of the origin or reason, regardless of the numbers killed. The dead are still dead, no matter who killed them. Eboo is not after one source, but THE source."

Then Prophet Muhammad was an extremist too. He had Abu Afak, Asma-bint-Marwan, Ka'ab-bin-Ashraf killed because they were a thorn on his side. And Muslims are supposed to emulate Prophet Muhammad as their role model. So, was Osama bin Laden wrong, and if so how ? (He was also trying to rid the world of infidels as did Prophet Muhammad and the present day Jihadists for whom the sunnah of the prophet is divine and pristine.)

Would you not agree ?

Mr. Patel,

Note this:

Shootingsparks

"It is an amazing breath of fresh air to see this column. The American media rarely mentions Israel in anything other than the most fawning of term, as most in American media are Jewish, and therefore have citizenship in Israel by birth.
It makes for a terribly unbalanced view on the region.
Yes, terror of any stripe is bad bad bad, Zionist terror far too rarely recieves the attention it warrants...
Radical Islam my ass...."

You see, Mr. Patel, what I mean by hilarious. But this blogger who thinks with his ass is not alone. He, or his ass, actually believes what he says, or farts. The media, asshead, is not owned by Jews, but by Christians, and is internationally incorporated. Israel isn't much mentioned now, because the media, Asshead, is concerned with its nonreporting on IRaq. But then the fleeing Palestinian Christians were never much mentioned were they, Ass? Nor were the endless suicide bombings of synagogues, car bombings, etc.

Asshead, the United States government gives 6,000,000 annually to Egypt, which has driven its Jews into exile and persecutes its Christians, gays, women, etc. In the meantime, Assformind, Egyptians never see the money and are literally starving in the current food shortage while Mubarak and Friends live it up on the 6,000,000.

Your Ass needs to read more or do whatever your Ass does that one with a brain would otherwise do.
Meantime, if you're going to fart out your posts on this blog, could you at least use air freshener?

It is an amazing breath of fresh air to see this column. The American media rarely mentions Israel in anything other than the most fawning of term, as most in American media are Jewish, and therefore have citizenship in Israel by birth.
It makes for a terribly unbalanced view on the region.
Yes, terror of any stripe is bad bad bad, Zionist terror far too rarely recieves the attention it warrants...
Radical Islam my ass....

There is always conflict, but most of us seek to settle it with some recognition that those we are in conflict with are as human as us. We appeal to the rule of law and the right to address of grievances. Even at our angriest, we often later regret our words, guilty at their violence. But there are those who thrive on the shattering of civilization. They may have a creed on their tongues, but their works betray their hearts, which burn until there is nothing left but emptiness.

Conflict is never as simple as it seems, but we like dichotomies--the dualistic view is a quick and dirty tool to help us come to grips with the state of the world. So although we can't label it as East-West, your religion or mine, or even those with plenty and those who go without--still it's true--there are only the house of Peace and the house of War. And there are too many poor bastards caught in between.

Farnaz,

I'm not going to get into this subject right now, because there are two more important things going on.

One, baseball playoffs.

Two, Pseudo just showed up on Susan Jacoby's blog.

Oh, and Mr. Patel, when you have a moment, tell us about the treatment of Palestinian Christians in Jordan, where they are now the majority! Then you can move on to the Christian sweepers in Pakistan.

Sorry, Arminius, I disagree. Equating the Israelis with the Taliban and saying you're not is demagoguery.

What I posted, in contrast to what Patel did, is fact. There are many more facts I could have listed and will list. It is not only or even primarily Palistinian Muslims who have fled into Israel, but Palistinian Christians, and they have fled for their lives.

The settlers, as Observer notes, have seen horrors few of us can imagine. I can. But then I saw the Iranian Revolutionary Guard murder a family friend. I was a child. They were also big into torture at the time, and they still are, as are the Palistinian Muslims.

The settlers have seen children lured from their homes and murdered. They have been victimized in every conceivable way. Realize that from one perspective this is their country, end of discussion. Most Palestinians are Turks who came to Israel during the Renaissance. Jews have been there since before there was a Mohammad.

Still, it was not until the seventies when the sacrifice of Jews for oil became apparent to them in ways I will DOCUMENT in future posts that this fundamentalism began. And we are not only speaking of settlers. Every time a child is murdered, every time children are terrified by missiles from Lebanon (Greater Syria), with every suicide bombing, every car bombing, more Jewish extremists are born.

Btw., these particular child victims are often orphans, Ethiopian Jews, Egyptian Jews, Russian Jews.

If Patel wants an end to Jewish extremism, then he ought to go and find out why after the Palestinians via Clinton had 96% of what they wanted they started all over again. Again and again, they have said they want the Israelis out of Israel. That is not a basis for peace.

Jews are not the only people in the world exiled from their country. Speak to the Vietnamese, but they came back. So did Jews.

The settlements can and should be disbanded. But a lot will have to change first, I hope. Here, although most American Jews were skeptical of the Clinton plan, they went along with it because the Israelis so desperately wanted peace they were willing to believe anything, try anything. They never believed the Likkud which told them the "Peace" was BS, that Palestinian school children were reading the worst racist filth, reminiscent of Die Sturmer.

And Likkud did not want to show it to them. Well, now many Israelis have seen it. They've seen the same filth in Egyptian, Syrian, Yemeni, Saudi newspapers as well. Of course the stuff is so stupid that it's hilarious, but as my Pakistani friend, my sister, says, if all you read, see, and here, is idiocy, you become idiotic.

But much of my post also concerns Patel's odd preoccupation with Jews. Why does he not speak of the horror of Palestinian life in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc. Many Palestinians did not want to leave Egypt, but along with Jews were driven out. Some remain. Why don't we here about them?

And if he is preoccupied about Jews, again what about the three million of us, THREE MILLION, exiled from the Middle East.

Or, if he wants to talk about Israel, how about the Israeli soldier killed a few months ago while guarding a Christian church?

Or, he could talk about how in the first Gulf War, we prevented Israel from defending itself since that might upset its oil-producing neighbors?!! He could mention how along with this government, the Israeli government lied and said no one was killed, when nearly 100 were.

I mean, there is so much he can say if he's interested in us.

I wonder if he could do something about Ismael whom the Iranian Revolutionary Guard murdered in the street as they were taking him into "custody" to torture. I loved him very much. Any comment, Mr. Patel?

This is typical Muslim argument to "support" daily Islamic terror attacks on civilians: "other religions have extremists too". It is sad when even an educated American Muslim makes this excuse.

Muslims are engaging in mindless suicidal/homicidal massacres of civilians all over the world every day and it is no way comparable to what other religons' extremists are doing.

Farnaz,

Ease up, friend, cool down. I think you have an axe to grind here, your feet are on the ground in Israel. (Note here: in 1967, on the first day of the Six Day war, I was looking for a place to volunteer to fight for Israel. By the next two days, it was apparent that all they needed was a bunch of cheerleaders.)

Eboo has a different perspective, one that I can appreciate. A universal law: an extremist is an extremist, regardless of the origin or reason, regardless of the numbers killed. The dead are still dead, no matter who killed them. Eboo is not after one source, but THE source.

With respect,

Arminius

"I am not comparing Israel and Pakistan, or the militant settlers and the terrorist Taliban."

You're not? Really. That is very kind of you. Are you comparing with the Taliban the Palestinian Muslims for whom (NB Observer12) one out of every three murders is an honor killing, usually of a woman who has been raped?

Are you comparing Pakistan with Palestine, where corruption is so rampant that on occasion civil servants such as Arafat's nephew are murdered in the streets?

Are you comparing Palestinian Muslims with the Pakistani police? You shouldn't, since more often than the Palestinian Muslim police Pakistani police make an effort to observe due process.

As for Pakistan, the horror began with Zia, who, as you well know, was Our Man in Islamabad. That would be Zia of the Madrassah Zias, Zia who welcomed the Saudis in to build Madrassahs so as to export terror from their own country, Zia whose Madrassah building the US conveniently ignored as we were busy fighting off the Russians in Afghanistan, who, btw., had not yet invaded.

You are being horrifically disingenuous in this post. You are well aware that the US had troops at the Afghan border in 1979. You know the history of the Madrassahs, the Taliban, etc.

Your trying to evade and muddy too many issues in a country which has some freedom of the press. Are you comparing the Palestinian Muslims with the Taliban who will not tolerate Christians? Would that be a comparison with the Palestinian Muslims who have driven out so many Palestinian Muslims into ISRAEL, WHICH CONTINUES TO TAKE THEM?

Would you be making that comparison, since, if so, I didn't notice.

Would you be comparing the Palistinian Muslims with the Iranian Muslims who exiled 1,000,000 of us Jews, killed and tortured others? And then their are the Bahai, in such danger right now that they are being watched by the UN. Watched. Since that is all said entity does, and it does so not very well. My family which had been in Iran since the middle ages fled in the night, and we weren't alone. Christians fled too as you know quite well. How many remain?

Then there are the other two million Jews in exile from their Middle Eastern countries (NB Observer), which stole their homes and their property. What of our rights, Mr. Patel?

It's terribly unfortunate that you chose to set up false parallels and false oppositions, seeking, it would seem to unite with Christians and pit them against Jews. Bad timing. More and more, Christians are learning about the treatment of their brothers and sisters in the Middle East and in Muslim countries such as Pakistan.

In the meantime, closest friend, a Pakistani Muslim national is being threatened by a Talib. Today, Islamabad was shut down due to a bomb scare, shut down. In the meantime, in Karachi, ordinary people are being dragged off the street and kidnapped. A Christian sweeper--oh, yes, we know about the sweepers--was found in his "home" having starved to death. Odd. Shouldn't you be attending to some of these issues Mr. Patel? And then we have the thuggish Zardari, whom the whole country believes murdered his wife. No comment?

Jewish fundamentalism is a very recent development. It began in Israel in the late seventies. That would be after the US insisted the Israelis give Arafat safe passage out of Syria, so that he could fly back into the arms of his most recent little blond boyfriend and continue his killing spree. These "fundamentalists" recall Arafat speaking at the UN in 1980, speaking by invitation about peace, while murdering a busload of school children in Israel.

I'm not sure what kind of manipulation you're up to here, but you're on the wrong blog.

The rhetoric you see here will probably surprise bloggers familiar with my posts, but the bottom line is bloggers here are literate. I can't quite get down to the level of your demagoguery, but rhetoric I can do.

Mr. Patel,

I believe that you enjoy giving the anti-semites
a public forum under the guise of liberalism.

Eboo Patel wrote:

"There is no such thing as your extremists or my extremists, Jewish extremists or Muslim extremists."

That is a bunch of garbage, as expected. Muslim extremists are indeed *your* extremists, Eboo. The same Quran indeed has verses that inspire suicide bombers/jihadists.(Read Quran[004:095].)

It is easy for any Muslim to become an extremists under the guidance of the Quran. For a Muslim it is Prophet Muhammad's life that is the beacon of virtue. However Muhammad's life is full of violence against "kufr". When his detractors did not listen to him, and perhaps expressed their irritation in form of violence, after Prophet's sustained insults and warnings against their practice of their ancestral rituals, Prophet used violence against these people at the slightest opportunity/provocation. This is viewed by Muslims as a the "Glory of the Sword of Islam".

A Muslim terrorist like radical Communists take inspiration for engaging in mindless violence from the Quran. (A radical Communist relies on the teachings of Lenin, Mao and Ernesto Guaevara.)
An example of such a mindset is provided here from the Times of India. The mastermind of the Delhi blasts, Mansoor Peerbhoy, a highly educated remorseless devout Muslim believed that the Quran was his guiding light to Jihad (fighting kafirs and infidels). The ToI link is:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mansoor_Peerbhoy_An_unlikely_jihadi_he_shows_no_remorse/articleshow/3567756.cms

Such incidents, no matter how anecdotal they are, are reminders how toxic an ideology/doctrine can be for the humanity. The doctrine of Islam is blessed by the Divine, and hence there can be no human argument against it. So, when innocent lives are lost by such bloodthirsty Jihadists such as Mansoor Peerbhoy, one wonders if Islam is indeed a barbric religion, or not.

You've got it exactly right. There used to be a saying (dating I think originally from when Hitler and the Communists were fighting it out in pre-World War II Germany) :
The opposite of a right wing fanatic isn't a left wing fanatic. The opposite of any kind of a fanatic is a moderate.
In this context, the opposite of a gun-toting Taliban isn't a gun-toting West Banker. The opposite of either one of them is someone who's sane. Somebody like us.

While agreeing with the main idea of Mr Patel, I'd like to bring into attention the rise of Hindu extremism in India-something Eboo seems to have overlooked.
The Hindu extremists might not get international attention, but these are the people who have perpetrated heinous crimes including Sikh genocide of 1984 (>3000 Sikhs killed on behest of Indian Federal Govt), 2001 Gujrat anti-Muslim riots (~2000 muslims killed on behest of provincial Govt), and ongoing killings of Christian missionaries in Eastern Indian states.

Well Mr. Patel- so much for trying to be reasonable and open a constructive dialogue.

heatherczerniak- the worst thing any pro-Israel Jew can do is ignore the acts of extremist settlers or sects, or pretend that their actions are not ultimately as injurious to the possibility of peace in the region as any other extremist act. You obviously didn't read Mr. Patel's comments very carefully- he refers to specific instances that indeed are exactly what an Islamist terrorist would avocate. And if you haven't been reading about the growing problem of fundamentalism in Israel, well, you are in for a treat. do a little research- one extremist act is just like another- muslim, jewish or christian. Our biggest crime is our denial. with every denial we enable them.

Mr. Patel,

This is an unfortunate post since for awhile you had credibility around here. The numbers of settler extremists vs. the number of Muslim terrorists? Is this a joke? Assuming it might not be,

1. How many settlers murdered their sisters in the form of honor killings?

2. How many Palestinian Muslims did the same? (The rough answer is known, and you should know it.)

3. How many Jewsish settlers sured Muslim children and then murdered them?

4. How many Muslims did the same? (Rough answer is known and you should know it.)

5. How many Muslims were tortured to death to extract "confessions" from them of dealing with Israelis? (Approximate answer is known, and you should know it.)

6. How many Jews wee tortured to death for dealing with Muslim officials?

7. How many settlers detonated suicide or truck bombs?

8. How many Muslims detonated suicide or truck bombs, in

Israel
Egypt
Yemen
Syria
Saudi Arabia
Pakistan
India
Etc,Etc.,Etc.

9. How many settlers bombed the World Trade Center?

10. How many Muslims bombed the World Trade Center?

You know what, Eboo? If you want to pick on someone, pick on a group your own size. How about the Christians?

But no, you wouldn't. Of course not. That would compromise your position here. You don't really want to talk about the plight of Christian minorities in places like Pakistan, now do you? No, because you are in a Christian country and you know you couldn't get away with it.

Well, guess what. I wouldn't count on Christians to support you. They're keeping careful watch on the number of their own martyred in the Middle East. And I wouldn't count on them at all, not at all, to share your "point of view."

How about the plight of Jews in all the Middle Eastern Countries, Eboo?

What? I can't hear. Farnaz, you around? What is the number in exile? How many millions?

"Let me cut some of you off before you even begin to write your comments: I am not comparing Israel and Pakistan, or the militant settlers and the terrorist Taliban."

Hey Eboo, why did you mention Israeli extremists? And why are you calling Israeli settlers "extremists?"

Don't you realize that the West Bank and Gaza are the property of Israel? Israel doesn't have to give the Palestinians anything. And why don't you implore the neighboring Arab countries to take the Palestinians in?

Israel owes the world nothing.

Sparrow,

If I recall my long-ago biology instruction, a amoeba or paramecium is still above a bacterium.

Speaking of low-level life forms, CCNL has inserted another of his pointless spams.

Hello there Eboo,

A quick question, are the following details described in Ayaan Hirsi Ali's autobiography, Infidel, considered the "extreme" elements of Islam????

p. 47 paperback issue:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

p. 347

"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

Mr. Patel, do you really think you can write an article about Israel and Pakistan, suggest a common theme, and then claim you are not comparing them?

There are so many, many differences between what is going on in Pakistan and what is occurring in the West Bank. Why not discuss extremist Christians in the US who blow up abortion clinics? Why not point out some differences if you want to show how them become "ours" in supposedly every society?

PAKISTAN is arguably producing the most violent, consistent, and organized form of terror the world has seen.

ISRAEL has yet to convict anyone of the pipe bomb, and if they do convict a settler, it would be the first to use explosives in years.

ISRAEL AND PAKISTAN are both struggling to get a grip on internal extremists, but for the sake of honesty, let's recognize that one on the struggles is a full blown and deadly war, and that the other is still, well, not.

arminius- oh! Of course- how embarrassing. Scum is much more complex organism. On the other hand, don't you think we need to downgrade a bit-say to the level of amoeba or paramecium? I know, I know- it's insulting to them too. Question: Would slime have been a better reference, do you think?

An "extremist" is a relative term. If some Native American walked up to my door with a shotgun pointed at me and said, "My ancestors had this land 2,000 years ago and I've come to take it back. It's mine, now..." whereupon I proceed to defend myself, does that make me "extremist?"

My point is, there is an historical element which must be considered when labeling someone an "extremist." History is NOT on the side of the zionists.

One the faults in Mr Patel's reasosoning, is to divide us into two groups: extremists and non extremists. But there another large group of people that promises obedience to leaders of a faith peaceful at the present but was extremist just merely 1700 years ago; this religion has never apologized for her past and should never be trusted, never.

Sparrow,

Oh, my goodness! Please do not insult scum by equating it to extremists! Extremists lie, on the evolutionary scale, somewhere between the AIDS virus and the botulism bacterium.

The problem with Mr. Patel's "us and them" dichotomy is that the only people who can assert control over the extremist Israeli's are Israelis, and the only people who can assert control over extremist Palestinians are Palestinians. We must take responsibility for our "own" group's people who use violence against others to further their agendas. Failure to criticize them and take action to stop them is equivalent to giving them our approval- for they know that only people from their own country, or religion, can stop them.

Batya113:"Spain has never (and will never) offer to give up its land to those who conquered it - nor should they."

One could say this line applies to the Palestinians as well, not just Israeli settlers.

Understand this, Batya113- extremists don't care about peace. They don't care how their fight impacts the rest of the world- they feel self- righteous and entitled to whatever they feel they want. This is not Judaism. this is extremism.

Let me also state for the record- I think Muslim extremists are the dregs of the earth. I also feel that way about any extremists. There is no ranking in "extremist"- there is just one level- scum.

Mr. Patel,
I don't have any quarrel with what you say but I'm a little hesitant about the example of Pakistan that you use. Being an Indian, like yourself, I find that it is convenient for Indians to point to examples of extremism/fundamentalism among Muslims and Pakistanis. I wonder whether you ever talk about the fundamentalism of the Hindu Right: RSS, BJP, the Shiv Sena, the VHP, and the violence they carry out in civil society through engineering riots, specifically targeting Muslims, and sometimes Christians. If you do so, could you post some links on this website. If you don't, I'm a little skeptical of your claims because it is so easy for an Indian (or someone of Indian descent) be s/he Hindu or Christian to critique Pakistan, and Muslims.

batya113-"Eboo believes in adjusting the facts to fit his own ideological beliefs and it is obvious that the kumbaya crowd feels comfortable doing so as well. Demonizing Jewish "settlers" is an easy scapegoat,."

In fact, that isn't what he did but what you're doing is exactly the point he is making. Your extremists, my extremists. Extremist settlers have no care for the rest of Israel as long as they get what they want. they have no qualms about putting everyone at risk, breaking peace agreements, or taking land that is under question. Sounds like extremist behavior to me. They will sacrifice nothing to gain peace for the state of Israel- its all about me,me,me,me,me. they aren't the only problem, nor is the problem only on the Israelis side. But to not recognize what part you play is to be irresponsible. And extremist.

ccnl, Calling Jews the chosen people is the language of the Bible. Most of us feel it means Chosen for Great Aggravation. Most of us take it with a grain of salt the size of Lot's wife. Christians use the term far more than I have heard Jews use it so if the term bothers you, take it up with them.

Hey Arminius- glad to see you here!

batya113,

Yeah, well, in 1492 Ferdinand and Isabella gave every Jew in Spain just a few months to sell all their possessions and leave, carrying no gold or silver.

Here is the interesting fate of some of them:

Spain's economy paid for its mistreatment of the Jews: many had been skilled craftsmen. Sultan Bajazet of Turkey warmly welcomed those who escaped to his country. "How can you call Ferdinand of Aragon a wise king--the same Ferdinand who impoverished his own land and enriched ours?" he asked. He employed the Jew in making weapons to fight against Europe.

Astoria, Maimonides fled Spain!!! Quick note from Wikipedia (but check any reliable source): "The Almohades from Africa conquered Córdoba in 1148, and threatened the Jewish community with the choice of conversion to Islam, death, or exile.[7] Maimonides's family, along with most other Jews, chose exile."

Crumble the foundations of these extremists ( and their rich sympathizers) with historic reality. That and only that will solve the problem!!!

The historic reality of Judaism:

1. Most if not all the OT is myth. What is not myth is semi-fiction.

www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. We are all God's chosen.

3. Israel was established by the UN in 1948. It should honor the original UN agreement and live within the described borders. Considering the hate generated by passages in the koran, erecting dividing walls on these borders should be completed. UN forces should control these walls.

And Jerusalem should be made into an international city under the control and protection of the UN.

The historic reality of Islam:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Anthony, thanks for the giggle. Eboo believes in adjusting the facts to fit his own ideological beliefs and it is obvious that the kumbaya crowd feels comfortable doing so as well. Demonizing Jewish "settlers" is an easy scapegoat, I guess, but what is really the point? Perhaps it's this: Painting the Jewish settlers as the key to the mideast problem which is completely reductionist. Taliban=Jewish "settlers"= moronic statement and false moral equivalence.

Mr Patel- I appreciate that you use the same source(NYT) in your comparisons.

SIM24- Every muslim I know feels as the author has stated- I can only speak for what I know-

Batya113- Under the peaceful rule of the muslims in spain- the world was given the jewish scholar Maimonaides-
The response of the spaniards when they recaptrued their land was to institute the auto de fe and the spanish inquisition-
I doubt many spaniards today recall that period with great pride.

Extremists can come under any guise.

I'm really glad to be reading this. I hope that more Muslims in this country and around the world actually feel this way.I don't want to offend anyone, but I have in fact found many Muslims to blindly side with the actions of their extremist cronies because those actions were said to be in the name of God or their tennants. I think it's absolutely ridiculous to do so, but I guess so is killing in the name of God. What a world we live in.

Hi, Sparrow,

Kristallnacht in Israel, done by extremist Jewish thugs? Does the evil finally come full circle?

You are right, Eboo is right, extremists are extremists. Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, whatever, makes no difference. The dead are still dead.

What was it that Gandhi said? "Yes, I am a Muslim. And also a Christian, and a Jew, and a Hindu, and a Buddhist."

As I said once,
We're all God's Children, can't we see?
It's not us and them, it's WE and WE.

batya113

You really need to do a more thorough reading of the history of Spain.

Wa'salaam

Muslims conquered and ruled over Spain for 700 years before the Spaniards again gained control. Spain has never (and will never) offer to give up its land to those who conquered it - nor should they. Are the Spaniards ever called "extremists" or "militant settlers" for living and raising families on land once occupied by muslims? Trying to link Jewish "settlers" to the Taliban is reflective of the lack of proportion many of the fringe left (I'm being nice here) bring to mid east politics.

sidney- extremists are extremists are extremists. And didn't I read last week about a group of young Jewish extremists setting shops on fire, beating up women, and threatening others? Sorry- no difference, no matter your weapon of choice. The end result is the same- innocent people dead to further your version of G-d. And isn't it interesting to see how this has come full circle? My first thought on reading about the stores set on fire- kristallnacht (sp?). So now we Jews have finally twisted our psyches around 360 degrees to do to our own what the Germans did?

Know what- you're right. there is a difference- Jewish extremists are even worse.

Mr. Patel,
I would recommed for you reading a Delhi bomber's interview in India Today newsmagazine where he says that even if his mother were killed in a market-place bombed by him, that would be fine with him because Allah will grant her place in heaven in the name of jihad.

Now this has nothing to do with a country letting extremists take shelter in their country. This is all about Islam.

Watch Bill Maher's new movie. There are 1 billion Muslims (with 57 intolerant Islamic nations) in the world trying to wipe out the only Jewish state with 14 million Jews (and 20 percent Muslim population). No comparison. Only a Muslim would find it remotely comparable.

Not only blowing up the hotel but daily incidents of terror directed at civilians by Muslims in Pakistan, Afghanistan and now India, your homeland, is not comparable to any other religion's extremists.

When non-Muslims start blowing up civilians in market- places, cafes, buses, trains on a daily basis then you can say they are catching up with the Muslims.

Wow, a posting mentioning Israel with two comments so far, and neither one is antisemitic. I think that's a first.

EBOO PATEL

You wrote, "Instead, we'll banish them to their own tent, where they can p--- on each other all they like."

Where, pray tell, will "their" tent be located?

"us vs them", has human nature changed?

I hear and read about "religious extremists" but do you or anyone else really believe that that is the only excuse that people use to "hate" the other.

Hate is not always expressed in the killing and maiming of the other, some times it can come in ways that try to subjugate the other and it can come disguised.

Of course, some believe firmly that they are doing what God wants them to do by forcing "their" god on others, don't you think?

Free will is a gift from God, what we do with it is our choice, anyone that tries to force themself or their beliefs on other , even tho they may think it is for the other person's good, is guilty of trying to steal someone's God given gift of free will.

Not only is free will a gift from God but all of us are God's gift to each other, what kind of gift we are is up to us, is it not?

We are responsible for how we use our free will whether or not we own up to our responsibility and as I have said before: "God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof".

Knowing and/or believing that Jesus is God-Incarnate, which He Is, does not necessarily add up to a bucket of snot if one does not at least try to live as Jesus asked.

You also wrote, "They are the them. We are the we.", and guess what, even tho when God became One of Us in Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, and tried to teach us that we are all brothers and sisters, not only of each other, but of God-Incarnate, Himself, did we listen?, did we hear?, did we even want to hear?

Jesus taught that we should LOVE OUR ENEMIES and PRAY FOR OUR ENEMIES, do you think He was kidding?, do you think He was crazy?, do you think that He asked the humanly impossible?

Jesus was just as human as you and I but if He was only that, then He was a liar and Jesus was not a liar, but as I have said many times and also earlier in this post: "God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof".

The "us vs them" will be with us until God establishes His Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth, on the seventh day but before the seventh day arrives, night is coming.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Mr. Patel:

As a Jew I share your thoughts and have looked with dismay at the extremist tendencies of much of the settler movement. People of faith and righteousness (whether Christian, Muslim or Jew) share more in common with each other than with the extremist, violent, hateful wings of their co-religionists. As an American Jew my loyalty is to the USA rather than Israel, but I support Israel and would like to see the Israelis reach a compromise over East Jerusalem and the West Bank. And hopefully Saudi involvement in negotiations with the Taliban will yield an improvement in the climate over there, God knows what will happen in Pakistan. Anyway, to my Christian, Muslim and Jewish brother and sisters who also believe in mutual understanding and peace, let me echo the words of Micah: "Do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with your God."

I couldn't agree more. I've always noted that religious extremists all seem to sound alike. what's happening in Israel is horrible- I don't recognize the Judaism i was raised with as what they are practicing. My only quibble- i would add Christian extremists to the group too.

Can we just make sure the two tents are far away from each other?