I find it amazing that lepers, sinners, and the soldiers under the centurion have such great faith in Jesus and his miracles. Remember Jesus is in the House of Lepers; there is where the ten met him along with Simon.

“CAPERNAUM, WHICH IS UPON THE SEA COAST”
“by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;”
“The people which sat in darkness saw great light”
”TO THEM WHICH SAT IN THE REGION AND SHADOW OF DEATH LIGHT IS SPRUNG UP.”
“JESUS WAS IN BETHANY, IN THE HOUSE OF SIMON THE LEPER”
“he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee.”
“he entered into a certain village”
“THERE MET HIM TEN MEN THAT WERE LEPERS”
“And when Jesus beheld him”
“he said, THOU ART SIMON THE SON OF JONA”
”THOU SHALT BE CALLED CEPHAS”
“WHICH IS BY INTERPRETATION, A STONE”
“But there was a certain man, called Simon”
”which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria”
”giving out that himself was some great one:”
“This man is the great power of God.”
“because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.”
“BEHOLD, THERE CAME A LEPER AND WORSHIPPED HIM, SAYING”
“Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.”
“And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying”
”be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.”
“JESUS WAS ENTERED INTO CAPERNAUM”
”THERE CAME UNTO HIM A CENTURION, BESEECHING HIM,”
“Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.”
“The centurion answered and said, Lord”
”I AM NOT WORTHY THAT THOU SHOULDEST COME UNDER MY ROOF”
”FOR I AM A MAN UNDER AUTHORITY, HAVING SOLDIERS UNDER ME”
”When Jesus heard it, he marveled”
”AND SAID TO THEM THAT FOLLOWED”
“I HAVE NOT FOUND SO GREAT FAITH, NO, NOT IN ISRAEL”
“there were set there SIX WATERPOTS OF STONE”
”after the manner of the purifying of the Jews”
“Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast”
” When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine”
“Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine”
“WHEN MEN HAVE WELL DRUNK, THEN THAT WHICH IS WORSE”
”THIS BEGINNING OF MIRACLES DID JESUS IN CANA OF GALILEE”
“AND HIS DISCIPLES BELIEVED ON HIM”
“HE WENT DOWN TO CAPERNAUM, HE, AND HIS MOTHER, AND HIS BRETHREN, AND HIS DISCIPLES”
“AND THOU, CAPERNAUM, WHICH ART EXALTED UNTO HEAVEN”
”SHALT BE BROUGHT DOWN TO HELL”
”for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee”
”had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.”

“THESE SIX THINGS DOTH THE LORD HATE”
“SEVEN ARE AN ABOMINATION UNTO HIM”

“AND THESE SHALL STAND UPON MOUNT EBAL TO CURSE”
“REUBEN, GAD, AND ASHER, AND ZEBULUN, DAN, AND NAPHTALI.”
“there were set there SIX STONES”
“he said, THOU ART SIMON THE SON OF JONA”
”THOU SHALT BE CALLED CEPHAS”
“WHICH IS BY INTERPRETATION, A STONE”

“AND HAST REVEALED THEM UNTO BABES.”
“A TEACHER OF BABES, WHICH HAST THE FORM OF KNOWLEDGE AND OF THE TRUTH IN THE LAW.”
“My son, keep thy father's commandment,”
“and forsake not the law of thy mother”
“Bind them continually upon thine heart”
“and tie them about thy neck”

Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

“CAPERNAUM, WHICH IS UPON THE SEA COAST”
“by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;”
“The people which sat in darkness saw great light”
”TO THEM WHICH SAT IN THE REGION AND SHADOW OF DEATH LIGHT IS SPRUNG UP.”

When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,

“JESUS WAS IN BETHANY, IN THE HOUSE OF SIMON THE LEPER”

And it came to pass, as he went to Jerusalem, that he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee.
And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.

“he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee.”
“he entered into a certain village”
“THERE MET HIM TEN MEN THAT WERE LEPERS”

And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

“And when Jesus beheld him”
“he said, THOU ART SIMON THE SON OF JONA”
”THOU SHALT BE CALLED CEPHAS”
“WHICH IS BY INTERPRETATION, A STONE”

But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

“But there was a certain man, called Simon”
”which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria”
”giving out that himself was some great one:”
“This man is the great power of God.”
“because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.”

“BEHOLD, THERE CAME A LEPER AND WORSHIPPED HIM, SAYING”
“Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.”
“And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying”
”be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.”
“JESUS WAS ENTERED INTO CAPERNAUM”
”THERE CAME UNTO HIM A CENTURION, BESEECHING HIM,”
“Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.”
“The centurion answered and said, Lord”
”I AM NOT WORTHY THAT THOU SHOULDEST COME UNDER MY ROOF”
”FOR I AM A MAN UNDER AUTHORITY, HAVING SOLDIERS UNDER ME”
”When Jesus heard it, he marveled”
”AND SAID TO THEM THAT FOLLOWED”
“I HAVE NOT FOUND SO GREAT FAITH, NO, NOT IN ISRAEL”

And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

“there were set there six waterpots of stone”
”after the manner of the purifying of the Jews”
“Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast”
” When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine”
“Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine”
“when men have well drunk, then that which is worse”
”This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee”
“and his disciples believed on him”
“he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples”

But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

“AND THOU, CAPERNAUM, WHICH ART EXALTED UNTO HEAVEN”
”SHALT BE BROUGHT DOWN TO HELL”
”for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee”
”had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.”
“AND HAST REVEALED THEM UNTO BABES.”

Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

“A TEACHER OF BABES, WHICH HAST THE FORM OF KNOWLEDGE AND OF THE TRUTH IN THE LAW.”

And Moses charged the people the same day, saying,
These shall stand upon mount Gerizim to bless the people, when ye are come over Jordan; Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Joseph, and Benjamin:
And these shall stand upon mount Ebal to curse; Reuben, Gad, and Asher, and Zebulun, Dan, and Naphtali.

“AND THESE SHALL STAND UPON MOUNT EBAL TO CURSE”
“REUBEN, GAD, AND ASHER, AND ZEBULUN, DAN, AND NAPHTALI.”

These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
Bind them continually upon thine heart, and tie them about thy neck.

“THESE SIX THINGS DOTH THE LORD HATE”
“SEVEN ARE AN ABOMINATION UNTO HIM”

“My son, keep thy father's commandment,”
“and forsake not the law of thy mother”
“Bind them continually upon thine heart”
“and tie them about thy neck”

kinghaz, don't waste your time. Catholicism is the Devil's church. The Vatican is the seat of Satan.

Believe me, the Vatican will burn soon.

Catholicism has been subjugating countries for centuries. Those countries only earned their freedom thru revolt.

Farnaz, that was a very wonderful poem. Thanks.

Pope Benedict XVI will kick off a week-long reading of the Bible on Italian television starting Sunday, with readers to include three former presidents and Oscar-winning actor Roberto Benigni.
Some 2,000 people will take turns reading the Bible's 73 books, from the Old Testament's Genesis to the New Testament's Book of Revelations, at Rome's Holy Cross in Jerusalem basilica.
The pope will record the first reading at the Vatican.

And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

“Then said the Lord unto me,”
“Though Moses and Samuel stood before me”
”yet MY MIND COULD NOT BE TOWARD THIS PEOPLE”
”cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth.”
“And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee”
”Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them”
“Thus saith the Lord”
”Such as are for death, to death”
“and such as are for the sword, to the sword”
“and such as are for the famine, to the famine”
”and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.”

“And I WILL APPOINT OVER THEM FOUR KINDS, saith the Lord”
“the sword to slay”
“and the dogs to tear,”
“and the fowls of the heaven”
”and the beasts of the earth”

“Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night”
“behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.”
“And FOUR GREAT BEASTS CAME UP FROM THE SEA”

“came THE LIKENESS OF FOUR LIVING CREATURES.”
”And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.”
”As for the likeness of their faces”
”they four had the face of a man”

“THESE TWELVE JESUS SENT FORTH”
HEADS CROWNS OF GOLD

PHARAOH “the sword to slay”
OSIRIS WAS THE FIRST THE BROTHER OF SETH
NEBUCHADNEZZAR “and the dogs to tear,”
SIMON, SIMON
CAESAR “and the fowls of the heaven”
ROMULUS AND REMUS
BERA KING OF SODOM ”and the beasts of the earth”
GOLIATH AND THE BROTHER OF GOLIATH

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Lord, even THE DEVILS ARE SUBJECT UNTO US THROUGH THY NAME.

BEHOLD, I COME AS A THIEF. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and THEY SEE HIS SHAME.

Then were THERE TWO THIEVES CRUCIFIED WITH HIM, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves,
Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.
But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, THAT THEY SPEAK HENCEFORTH TO NO MAN IN THIS NAME.
And they called them, and COMMANDED THEM NOT TO SPEAK AT ALL NOR TEACH IN THE NAME OF JESUS.
But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they COMMANDED THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SPEAK IN THE NAME OF JESUS, and let them go.
And they departed from the presence of the council, REJOICING THAT THEY WERE COUNTED WORTHY TO SUFFER SHAME FOR HIS NAME.

Saying, DID NOT WE STRAITLY COMMAND YOU THAT YE SHOULD NOT TEACH IN THIS NAME? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
I WRITE NOT THESE THINGS TO SHAME YOU, but as my beloved sons I WARN YOU.
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
I SPEAK TO YOUR SHAME. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
BUT BROTHER GOETH TO LAW WITH BROTHER, and that BEFORE THE UNBELIEVERS.

Whose end is destruction, WHOSE GOD IS THEIR BELLY, and WHOSE GLORY IS IN THEIR SHAME, who mind earthly things

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, DESPISING THE SHAME, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
For consider him that endured such CONTRADICTION OF SINNERS against himself, lest ye BE WEARIED AND FAINT IN YOUR MINDS.
YE HAVE NOT YET RESISTED UNTO BLOOD, striving against sin.

Lord, even THE DEVILS ARE SUBJECT UNTO US THROUGH THY NAME.

BEHOLD, I COME AS A THIEF. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and THEY SEE HIS SHAME.

Then were THERE TWO THIEVES CRUCIFIED WITH HIM, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

For the SON OF MAN IS LORD even of the sabbath day.
But that ye may know that the SON OF MAN HATH POWER ON EARTH to forgive sins
THE SON OF MAN came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, A FRIEND OF PUBLICANS AND SINNERS. But wisdom is justified of her children.

But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
For he said unto him, COME OUT OF THE MAN, THOU UNCLEAN SPIRIT.
And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, MY NAME IS LEGION: FOR WE ARE MANY.

SO THE DEVILS BESOUGHT HIM, saying, If thou cast us out, SUFFER US TO GO AWAY INTO THE HERD OF SWINE.
And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, THE WHOLE HERD OF SWINE RAN VIOLENTLY DOWN A STEEP PLACE INTO THE SEA, AND PERISHED IN THE WATERS.
And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and WHAT WAS BEFALLEN TO THE POSSESSED OF THE DEVILS.

And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, LEGION: BECAUSE MANY DEVILS WERE ENTERED INTO HIM.
And they besought him that he would not COMMAND THEM TO GO OUT INTO THE DEEP.

And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.
And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.
And there was in their synagogue A MAN WITH AN UNCLEAN SPIRIT; and he cried out,
Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I KNOW THEE WHO THOU ART, THE HOLY ONE OF GOD.
And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.
And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for WITH AUTHORITY COMMANDETH HE EVEN THE UNCLEAN SPIRITS, AND THEY DO OBEY HIM.

Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
AND FORTHWITH JESUS GAVE THEM LEAVE. AND THE UNCLEAN SPIRITS WENT OUT, AND ENTERED INTO THE SWINE: AND THE HERD RAN VIOLENTLY DOWN A STEEP PLACE INTO THE SEA, (THEY WERE ABOUT TWO THOUSAND;) AND WERE CHOKED IN THE SEA.
And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.
And THEY COME TO JESUS, AND SEE HIM THAT WAS POSSESSED WITH THE DEVIL, AND HAD THE LEGION, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.
And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and also concerning the swine.

Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to MARY MAGDALENE, OUT OF WHOM HE HAD CAST SEVEN DEVILS.

Will God hear his cry when trouble cometh upon him?
Will he delight himself in the Almighty? will he always call upon God?
I will teach you by the hand of God: that which is with the Almighty will I not conceal.
Behold, all ye yourselves have seen it; why then are ye thus altogether vain?

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
BUT THERE WENT UP A MIST FROM THE EARTH, AND WATERED THE WHOLE FACE OF THE GROUND.
AND THE LORD GOD FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND, AND BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE; AND MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL.
And THE LORD GOD PLANTED A GARDEN EASTWARD IN EDEN; AND THERE HE PUT THE MAN WHOM HE HAD FORMED.
AND OUT OF THE GROUND MADE THE LORD GOD TO GROW EVERY TREE THAT IS PLEASANT TO THE SIGHT, and good for food; THE TREE OF LIFE ALSO IN THE MIDST OF THE GARDEN, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
And the LORD GOD TOOK THE MAN, AND PUT HIM INTO THE GARDEN OF EDEN TO DRESS IT AND TO KEEP IT.
And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
And the rib, which THE LORD GOD HAD TAKEN FROM MAN, MADE HE A WOMAN, and brought her unto the man.
And Adam said, THIS IS NOW BONE OF MY BONES, AND FLESH OF MY FLESH: SHE SHALL BE CALLED WOMAN, BECAUSE SHE WAS TAKEN OUT OF MAN.
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
AND THEY WERE BOTH NAKED, THE MAN AND HIS WIFE, AND WERE NOT ASHAMED.
And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called HIS NAME ENOS: THEN BEGAN MEN TO CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD.

“the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created”
“in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,”
“But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground”
“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground”
“and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
“And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted”
“and became into four heads.”
“I was made in secret”
“his name Enos”
“then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.”
“Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither”
“blessed be the name of the Lord”
“AND ISAAC CALLED JACOB, AND BLESSED HIM”
“AND GOD ALMIGHTY BLESS THEE”
“THE SECRET OF GOD WAS UPON MY TABERNACLE”
“WHEN THE ALMIGHTY WAS YET WITH ME”
“AND GIVE THEE THE BLESSING OF ABRAHAM”
“AND BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE; AND MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL.”
“the hand of the Lord”
“In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind”
earth and the heavens
GOD ALMIGHTY
“NAKED CAME I OUT OF MY MOTHER'S WOMB, AND NAKED SHALL I RETURN THITHER”
“THE HAND OF THE LORD”
“IN WHOSE HAND IS THE SOUL OF EVERY LIVING THING, AND THE BREATH OF ALL MANKIND”
heavens and of the earth
ALMIGHTY GOD
“and BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE;”
“THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS IN MY NOSTRILS”
“ALL THE WHILE MY BREATH IS IN ME”
“AND MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL.”

I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE ENDING
THE BOOK OF THE GENERATION OF JESUS CHRIST
THIS IS THE BOOK OF THE GENERATIONS OF ADAM. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, LORD JESUS.
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and WHATSOEVER ADAM CALLED EVERY LIVING CREATURE, THAT WAS THE NAME THEREOF.
And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
NOW THE SERPENT WAS MORE SUBTIL THAN ANY BEAST OF THE FIELD WHICH THE LORD GOD HAD MADE. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
FOR GOD DOTH KNOW THAT IN THE DAY YE EAT THEREOF, THEN YOUR EYES SHALL BE OPENED, AND YE SHALL BE AS GODS, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL.
And unto Adam he said, BECAUSE THOU HAST HEARKENED UNTO THE VOICE OF THY WIFE, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
THORNS ALSO AND THISTLES SHALL IT BRING FORTH TO THEE; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
And ADAM CALLED HIS WIFE'S NAME EVE; BECAUSE SHE WAS THE MOTHER OF ALL LIVING.
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and A FLAMING SWORD WHICH TURNED EVERY WAY, TO KEEP THE WAY OF THE TREE OF LIFE.

I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE FIRST AND THE LAST.
The grace of our LORD JESUS CHRIST BE WITH YOU ALL. Amen.
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
THUS THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE FINISHED, AND ALL THE HOST OF THEM.

I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians
I am carnal
I am left
I am sure
I am of Paul
I am of Apollos
I am to you
I am not the hand
I am become as sounding brass
I am the least of the apostles
I am filled with comfort
I am present with that confidence
I am jealous over you with godly jealousy
I am weak
I am coming to you
I am crucified with Christ
I am afraid of you
be as I am
for I am as ye are
I am an ambassador in bonds
I am set for the defence of the gospel
I am apprehended of Christ Jesus
in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content
I am made a minister
I am also in bonds
I am chief
I am ordained a preacher
I am persuaded that in thee also
I am now ready to be offered
I am tempted of God
I am holy
I am in this tabernacle
I am well pleased
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending
I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts
I am rich
I am thy fellowservant
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end
I am thy fellowservant
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
I am the root and the offspring of David

FriendEnemy:

Does he talk kindly of people of no faith? What does he admire about non-believers?

We must all be partners in the plan to make earth more humane and just.

If there is exclusion of any group, then this is not in the spirit of your mission, Eboo.

Come on up for the rising...
.....................................
I did come up. Whatever Springsteen says is okay with me.

Exclusion or exclusivity will always be, I think, a problem with these kinds of initiatives. They can go on at some local levels and be successful. One life gained is worth a great, great deal. However, as you say, not everyone is in a community of the faithful. There are areas with endless ethnic, religious, and political strife. The three are frequently intermingled.

This is why I think our best global, long-range hope is probably nonsectarian.

Farnaz

Maybe you did teach Native Americans Farnaz- but clearly you were so removed from the every day lives of people- that their concerns and issues didn't touch your own worldview or even american view on poverty and the government's role in it-
And I am sure the honor of being a human being was one not conferred on your efforts.
You don't know what that means, and you cannot google it- but you are no walking tree.

You seem to be developing a noticeable pattern Farnaz-
Whenver someone confronts your inconsitencies, you accuse them of bigotry.

And you accuse all of christianity of the same insecurities that you are now applying to me.

As you have stated, and actually argued without any proof- that the welfare system in America is sufficent for it's poor-
As a person who has spent my entire adult life in serving the weakest people in our society, the aged, the handicapped, the poor- and many times with the help of religious charity groups-
I find your eagerness to foist them off on an apathetic government alarming.

This has been my life's work, not just something to try to save face one time in a blog discussion.

Following are all your own quotes Farnaz-

"You continually misinterpret me, for example suggesting that I ever said "the government takes care of" anyone."

Here are the many places you stated so-
____________________
Farnaz states-
"Again, there is NO REASON for religious institutions to have tax exempt status. Whatever social welfare programs some may run can be put UNDER THE AUSPICES OF GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, thus assuring equal nonsectarian access.
________________________________

I've never seen anti-religious hatred in Jacques, and certainly, I have none. I oppose tax exemptions for organized religions, period. All the services listed above can and should be PROVIDED BY GOVERNMENT RUN COMMUNITY-BASED AGENCIES.
_______________________________________

ALL OF THE SERVICES CURRENTLY provided by institutionalized religions ARE AVAILABLE THROUGH GOVERNMENT AGENCIES. By removing their tax exempt status, we would enable those agencies would be able to improve and expand service delivery.
_______________________________________________

Here is my response to some backpedalng you did on the subject when presented with facts-

"Farnaz- I'm glad you have realized that the government does not actually provide social services now."
____________________________________
Faranza-"I beg your pardon? INDEED IT DOES, although they have been gutted in recent years, with Bill Clinton's adoption of the Republican agenda. A gutted welfare ISN'T identical to NO welfare....

"Let the preachers of all denominations preach what they wish. Just don't put the rest of us in a position to fund them. Whatever social welfare work religious institutions provide can be provided through SECULAR, NONSECTARIAN AGENCIES._
_____________________________________

These were presented in the order with which they were written.
At least you changed 'government' to 'secular.'

This is why I found it odd that you could claim to live among Native Americans- even point out their "unimaginable living conditions", which is proof of the neglect and insufficient care taken by the government-
and their most glaring and dismal failure in regards to the poor-
and contend over and over again that (here I quote you)
"ALL OF THE SERVICES CURRENTLY provided by institutionalized religions ARE AVAILABLE THROUGH GOVERNMENT AGENCIES."

Boggles the intellect and the heart.

Having lived for 2 years, sometimes in shanties, sometimes in tents outside- teaching VOLUNTARILY (without pay) the healing nation of the Pomos- I could never be satisfied with the
inadequate resources provided by the government.

In all cases I found that the supplementary services provided by religious orgs were indispensible. Even politically!
(It was a church group that fought to prevent development of a mall on a sacred burial ground)

It is extremely counterintuitive to claim a kinship and relationship with a people who are the MOST vocal in their complaints of lack of government support.
While at the same time petitioning to remove the supports that make life remotely subsistent for them-
(and complaining about the money taken out of YOUR pocket- in CAPS no less)
"DON'T TAKE MY MMONEY FOR IT."Sept.22,2008 5:37PM

AND claiming that the services are already sufficently provided by the gov!

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/georgetown/2008/09/the_christian_right_and_the_ir/allcomments.html

And even now you forget yourself- calling Native Americans "The Indians I taught" , a most unpalatable and regrettable forgetting on your part-
I suppose now you'll contend, to cover another inconsitency, that Native Americans actually LIKE being called "Indians".
No, it is a pet peeve, an expression that most original americans resent.
And no, no doctor wants to live in the reservation- exactly BECAUSE of the deplorable conditions- not to mention- Non-Native Americans are NOT ALLOWED to live there!

You can pretend offended sensibilities as an excuse to offer no actual experiences- but I know that you do not offer them because every time you do, more inconsistencies are revealed.

Do not pretend to noble past actions nor motives that are not present.
Stick with abstract concepts or personal accusations.

Astoria/Victoria

Btw., anyone who ever worked with American Indians (a phrase, btw., used to distinguish this group from Asian Indians--that tells nothing about one who utters the phrase, except that she's aware of speech community constraints) would know that those living on a reservation often refer to it as the "rez." Anyone, Victoria....

I think you know that you will be happier and healthier if you stop measuring yourself against, competing with others, particularly people you don't know. That's my humble opinion anway. It's only that when people stop that sort of thing that they can see and appreciate the good things in themselves.

Again, I wish you well.

iamweaver:

Nigeria is interesting. As you know, it is the fourth largest oil producer. We get a significant amount of our oil from there. Of course, military rule, corruption, faulty infrastructure, etc. devastated it, but it is recovering. But we cannot forget debt, which forever plagues these nations as loans continue with interest rates that cannot be met.

Nigeria got out of hers with the Paris Group awhile back if I recall correctly, but should never have gotten in, and was badly hindered by it. Corruption is being addressed successfully. Still, international market demands, economic pressures exert profound influence on Nigeria, which continue to contribute to its dismal infrastructure. With the cultural legacy of colonialism, political, economic, and cultural neocolonialism, ethnic/religious strife, wouldn't nonsectarian relief, locally delivered, with oversight work better?

Think of the Madrasssahs in Pakistan, which only loomed into public conscientiousness after 9/11, although Pakistanis had been waving a red flag for a long time. Remember Zia? Remember Saudi Arabia? The US? Parents who send there children to these schools generally have no idea of what will happen to them there. Education for the poor is a dream. Madrassahs promise education.

There is an always will be a danger with administering aid through religious institutions. As I mentioned earlier, the Catholic Church has done well in India and Pakistan. In both countries (I'm not referencing the Dalit, now), it has run schools without attempting to convert anyone. Unfortunately, the cost of these schools is prohibitive for most.

If one could get relgious institutions to provide services, native religious institutions or other, on a nonsectarian basis that would be wonderful. How could that possibly happen though in countries where there is as much ethnic strife as has been in Nigeria? Was?

Astoria/Victoria

The Indians I taught lived in unimaginable conditions. I'm not going to sacrifice their suffering to your deep insecurity. You continually misinterpret me, for example suggesting that I ever said "the government takes care of" anyone. While this could simply be due to reading deficiency, excessive subjectivity, I suspect the problems lie elsewhere.

One, of course, is bigotry. That has been made obvious again and again, but the larger problem is insecurity and jealousy where I am concerned. I can't for the life of me figure out why you or anyone else would continually be so threatened by me, but you have demonstrated your fears again and again.

You say I "annoy" you. You don't annoy me. I've read Janet's correspondence with you, which I'm not going to paste here, and I thank her. She was kind. As for you, I feel sorry for you. I would be sorry for anyone who felt so threatened by another, particularly yours truly, who is surely not worth so much worry.

Good luck to you. If you can get a handle on your own worth you will, I think be happier.

Good luck!

Usama defends his prophet’s abolition of adoption thus:
“Men rejected their blood sons and chose to adopt adult men as their sons, passing on inheritance to other than their own kin.”

Below is the true explanation for that abolition.

Mohammad inherited a freed Syrian slave from his first wife Khadija by the name of Zayd the son of Haritha and who after adoption was renamed Zayd the son of Mohammad.
The prophet visited his adopted son’s house one time and saw his daughter-in-law, Zainab bint Jahsh in her nightgown. He liked what he saw and hinted his interest to adding her to his harem. The young man was willing to do anything, including divorcing his wife, to please his father. The prophet would not hear of it. That is until the Messenger of Allah received a message from Allah through the Archangel Gabriel “commanding” him to marry his daughter-in-law. The daughter in law , Zainab, had to her credit refused such an arrangement until she was shown the “command of Allah”.
The Arabs of Mecca began to loudly question this new arrangement that was unheard of in their culture. As usual, Allah interceded at the nick of time with a new edict; adoption was from that moment on abolished and retroactively . This would surely get him of the hook since Zayd would no longer be his son and Zainab no longer his daughter in law. That did get Mohammad off the hook but at what price? It denied Muslim children throughout history from the mercy of adoption and doomed them to a lifetime of deprivation.

Does he talk kindly of people of no faith? What does he admire about non-believers?

We must all be partners in the plan to make earth more humane and just.

If there is exclusion of any group, then this is not in the spirit of your mission, Eboo.

Come on up for the rising...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0FP0JSvdHY

Farnaz-
I have just figured out what it is that annoys me so.
You continually and illogically assert that there is a welfare system in America that can take care of the poor- there has not been for some time- yet you keep saying it-

And then you offer as your own personal experience- the most dismal failure of the government to respond to poverty- the native americans-

It really is inconceivable that one could live among some of the most poverty stricken people in this land- and still think that the government is taking care of the poorest people- anyone- anywhere-

there can only be one conclusion-
certainly you can have no response- there is none-

Farnaz- you have been dengirating and sneering at christian missionaires and making all sorts of unkind assertions about their motives-
you have repeatedly stated that you are an atheist- and call for taxation against churches-
followed by long critiques of just about every religion and their worthlessness-

It is not hostility- and you can overplay some victimhood if you like- but there is a disconnect in your biases towards the faithful.

I have talked many times about my experiences with the Pomos- even CCNL doesn't bother to make fun of it-

the fact that you try to opt out of elabrating in any way indicates you are having a Sarah Palin moment- and don't want to reveal your lack of real experience or knowledge.

Farnaz -

I doubt that you will end up reading this, but are you seriously suggesting that Nigeria still holds vestiges of colonialism?

Nigeria, rocked with Neomuslim strife (proof of the potential virulence of religion, for sure, but not colonialism), with an economy centered around Lagos? (I am assuming you have been to Lagos - probably the one city in the world that I never really wish to experience again) Any first-world country (to say nothing of Britain in particular) has only as much influence there as the cash they can wave around; and even then, it's a minimal influence. Even those giants of capitalism, the oil companies, are hard-pressed to get a real foothold there. That's probably the worst example that I can think of (next to Ghana) for a claim that colonialism (economic or political) is still strong.

Farnaz- I simply don't believe you.
I actually and truly worked with, and taught english and art to the Pomo Tribe in N. California for 2 years.

I see you were embarrased that you didn't know to call them Native Americans, and called them American Indians- THEN try to cover it up by claiming they do not call themselves Native Americans.

If you had really spent any time on reservations- you would realize that one must have the sensitvity to call people by what they wish to be known as.

Take it from a walking tree- you have failed the sniff test.

Dear Spiderman,

This, too, is by Judah Halevi. All through the centuries, from the exile on, they wrote of Zion and Jerusalem. It is faith, not reason, I don't think.

Jerusalem

Beautiful heights, city of a great King,

From the western coast my desire burns towards thee.

Pity and tenderness burst in me, remembering

Thy former glories, thy temple now broken stones.

I wish I could fly to thee on the wings of an eagle

And mingle my tears with thy dust.

I have sought thee, love, though the King is not there

And instead of Gilead’s balm, snakes and scorpions.

Let me fall on thy broken stones and tenderly kiss them—

The taste of thy dust will be sweeter than honey to me.

Astoria/Victoria,

Many, many Native Americans,none of whom call themselves Native Americans, btw, refer to the Reservation as the Rez.

I taught on a reservation in North Dakota, and that is all I'll ever say about that. If I had a fat check, I'd certainly write it.

I've never lived in a Condo.

Victoria, I can't correspond with you anymore. This hostility is senseless. Anon is one matter, but you are another.

I'm sorry.

I suspect your entire experience is stopping off at a 'trading post' and buying some turquoise jewelry to 'support the local tradecraft.

Guess what, you can buy that same jewelry fromthe same catalogues that the seller bought them from.

No, you won't find any doctors living on the rez.
They live in town, along with alot of native americans who moved there when they cold afford to- working the same jobs that the hispanics, african-americans, white people or whatever are working.

Dear Spiderman,

Here is a poem for you. It was written by the great eleventh-century Jewish poet, Yehuda Halevi.

WHO IS LIKE THEE

Who is like Thee, revealing the deeps,

Fearful in praises, doing wonders?

The Creator who discovereth all from nothing,

Is revealed to the heart, but not to the eye;

Therefore ask not how nor where—

For He filleth heaven and earth.
Remove lust from the midst of thee;

Thou wilt find thy God within thy bosom,

Walking gently in thine heart—

He that bringeth low and that lifteth up.

And see the way of the soul‘s secret;

Search it out and refresh thee.

He will make thee wise, and thou wilt find freedom,

For thou art a captive and the world is a prison.

Make knowledge the envoy between thyself and Him;

Annul thy will and do His will;

And know that wheresoever thou hidest thee, there is His eye,

And nothing is too hard for Him.

He was the Living while there was yet no dust of the world;

And He is the Maker and He the Bearer;

And man is counted as a fading flower—

Soon to fade, as fadeth a leaf.

Farnaz- Still decrying the efforts of christian charity I see-
to what end?

"Anyway, I suspect we do have in common the desire to see an end to the needless misery we see around us. One obvious place in which religious institutions could play a role is on American Indian Reservations."

I am truly starting to suspect that you got off the plane and rolled into a condo in a fat neighborhood, and haven't left.

Having a 'desire to see' and end to misery is worse than doing nothing.

Criticizing those who do something- also- very very easy to do-

What have YOU done for native-americans?
Or anyone?
Written a check to a charity that takes 78% for administrative costs?

If you had ever been a hundred miles within anyone who has ever been on a (rez?) reservation-
you would understand how extremely ridiculous your postulation that
"They need food, doctors who live on the Rez,..."

Are you really this clueless?
Doctors who live on the Rez?

I have never heard any nativce american anywhere refer to it as 'rez'.
What cartoon are you watching?
See, this makes me mad- because your careless assessment based on pure fictional speculation diminishes their real problems and you are disrespecting and doing them a disservice.

Hello Farnaz,

Im fine. Thanks.

From the Concerned Christian now Liberated:

Eboo, Eboo, Eboo,

Once again-

You noted: "That is American religion at its best."

Until the koran is corrected, please do not include Islam as part of the American religious scene.

Once again the reality of Islam:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

iamweaver:

"Congo in the 50s"

Good grief, my friend. You truly don't mean to suggest that the Belgians operated in complete isolation. Say it ain't so. Also, what I'm talking about never took the form of active conspiracy, certainly not where missionaries and educators were concerned. It has always been far more subtle than that. One could say with some certainty that there were those among them who became victims.

Anyway, I suspect we do have in common the desire to see an end to the needless misery we see around us. One obvious place in which religious institutions could play a role is on American Indian Reservations. The RC church is a presence there anyway. At present the average income is under 6,000 dollars per annum. The American Indians are often described as among the poorest of developing nations.

They need food, doctors who live on the Rez, clinics, housing, counseling of every sort, jobs. They need their lands restored to them, treaty obligations met, etc.

Why not start there? Here, that is.

Hello Spiderman,

I've missed you. How are you, my friend?

Farnaz

Have you actually been to any of these places where you feel that colonialism is still strong, and somehow supported by the religious establishment?

Does having been born and raised in Iran count for having been there? As for the other countries, yes. Have you been to those you list?

Why do I think not. Conversion of the Dalit in India is not osmotic. It is active and aggressive. I should add that for a variety of sociopolitical reasons that I suspect would be difficult to communicate, this conversion activity is a very good thing. It enables the Dalit to enter a class that would otherwise be difficult for them to get into. They will, of course, always be Dalit, always recognizably so, but better off.

Try it en masse. If you know anything about India, you should be able to predict the problems without assistance from me. Some Hindus would like to see the permanent end of caste. Some not.
GET IT?

Colonialism, at present, is more subtle than it was thirty years ago. Hence the term Neocolonoialism. The Raj, as it were, is still there in coups, exploitive loans, business contracts, one-way tariffs, WB orders that end in starvation and famine. In the meantime, conversion and anthroplogy are present, but also in a quieter way.

Truthfully, there is nothing very complex in what I'm saying. For the most part religion supports ideology. There are, of course, times when it does not. Think for example of liberation theologians in South America. Do you recall Oscar Romero?

Truthfully, I don't want to reminisce. My father was a few miles from where he was murdered, learned of it shortly thereafter.

Honestly, I don't know what we're arguing about.

Farnaz:

"The Dalit need help en masse. We are talking of millions who are literally enslaved. Attempting to conver them all...?"

Again - you infer connections where none exist. I wonder if you have actually spoken to very many missionaries - I have talked to scores. Their purpose is to help, not convert. They will talk for hours about people in their local communities, and the assistance that they need, or the issues that they are facing as individuals, not their progress towards faith conversion. If conversions happen, they are via osmosis - those who wish to emulate the fairly altruistic and selfless individuals who have interrupted careers in an industrialized nation to come and help teach, or practice medicine, or what have you. This is precisely why Rick Warren's suggestion is pretty obvious.

Have you actually been to any of these places where you feel that colonialism is still strong, and somehow supported by the religious establishment? Speaking for myself, I can say that the only plae where the vestiges of the old colonialistic system still hold any sway at all is Cote d'Ivoir. For me - this covers Nigeria, Ghana, Cote d'Ivoire, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Mali, CAR, Morocco, UAC and Iraq.

Most "old timer" missionaries that I personally know of that were in Africa or the Caribbean in the "bad old days"like my aunts and uncles weren't even from the same country that imposed "order" over the hapless natives (for example - check out the number of missions in Congo in the 50s, and see how many of them were Belgian). You will find that your supposed causal links do not exist. Missionaries entered "primitive" lands irrespective of the governments that ended up seizing control of the local populations - and, IMO, those governments could give a rat's ass about whose missionaries were there or not.

Farnaz wrote "Christianization is the first step in imperialism."

Evangelical churches mostly believes in local autonomy. They don't have any central figure like the pope in Catholicism. Our "empire" is our little local church which is independent from other evangelical churches.

Catholicism is NOT Christianity. Catholicsim is an empire but true Christianity is not. It's a relationship between Jesus Christ and the person. A ONE ON ONE relationship. Our main focus is the Kingdom of Heaven and not any idiot empire on earth.

FREEDOM IS OUR TWIN and SUBJUGATION IS OUR ENEMY. The reason why the U.S is a freedom defender is because of its true Christian heritage.

Before the U.S existed, Europe subjugated this world and no European country during those days were Evangelical Christians.

If ever the U.S will somehow RULE this world, it is NOT because we choose it but because we will INHERIT IT by the WILL of God.

After WW3, the U.S will become as the SOLE Superpower and it's not our making. The same way King David had acquired the throne of Jerusalem.

Survival of the fittest? God will chose who is the fittest. Many parts of the U.S will burn because of unbelief but despite that it still is the fittest in the eyes of God because there are still many who believes.

Liberal America will burn but the remaining conservative America will Rule the world for a thousand years.

That is the prophecy and nobody can disanul it. Those who will try will surely fry. And yet they will try to fulfill the prophecy.

iamweaver:

Re: The Dalit

Catholics are helping the Dalit and they are converting them at the same time. What would you like to call this process?

At present, it's going on on a very small scale. There is, I don't think, any danger of a backlash. Should it be attempted on a large scale....I leave it to your well travelled self to draw the obvious conclusions.

The Dalit need help en masse. We are talking of millions who are literally enslaved. Attempting to conver them all...?

Irischermann :

I will respond to you as best I can. First, I can say to you that you don't appear to be Christian. You revile me, accuse me of hateful things without evidence. This isn't consistent with the teachings of Christianity.

While conversionism may be a part of whatever religion you adhere to, the notion that other's beliefs--Judaism, Islam, Hinduism--are inferior to yours and that said believers need to be "saved" in ways your system deems proper is dismissive, authoritarian, colonialist. And more and more, people resent it and see it as ideological. Often, those at the front lines, missionaries, anthropologists, et al, are quite sincere, don't recognize what will follow them. They need, therefore, to question their basic assumptions.

What do I mean by saved? Is there another world view? Are there others? Is it possible that the lord has a covenant with all peoples, as, for instance, Judaism maintains.

Christianity doesn't always seek conversion. In Pakistan for decades, Catholics have run schools in which they permit Muslims to be Muslims, wise, since otherwise said Catholics would be in danger.

But what these Catholics are doing is more than cautious. It shows respect, decency, and understanding.

Again, I don't think you could be Christian, since Christians are not haters, are they? Not bigots who think their way is the only way, are they?

Farnaz

iamweaver:

Last post on this. You write of your decade's work, etc., and then of colonialism as if it were a thing of the past!

Are you sure you were working above ground? I'm willing to go along with Neocolonialism, though like many others, I think garbage by any other name stinks to the same extent.

You may not impose your personal views theological or otherwise on other people without reaping the catastrophes we've seen. The world has changed in the last several years. Nor may you interfere with local religious institutions whose patterns may be internally oppressive. Fortunately, you may not be in a position to attempt this, fortunately, that is, for you.

iamweaver:

I'm not talking about my father's day, although since he is alive, his day continues. I'm afraid you are more than a bit presumptuous. I've spent time in Iran, India, Pakistan, Dar, Nigeria, Kenya, etc. I've seen firsthand ideology bear fruit through conversion and the consequences to the converted. The dead don't eat.

We are obviously having difficulty communicating. Perhaps there is too much to be said on this, more than this thread can accommodate. I can only repeat that you and your Daddy notwithstanding, a nonsesctarian, coordinated aid effort of the sort I described could have some success.

Usama1, Usama1, Usama1,

Once again:

Indeed if you really were a former bred, born and brainwashed Christian, you now have unfortunately have been brainwashed into the Islamic cult.

We offer a free, Five Step Method for Deprogramming Islam:

Are you ready this time?

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc.

No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic nonsense!!!!

Usama explains;
"In this case, since exile was tried once before but failed, slavery was a way to integrate."

Go preach your above doctrine to all those whose ancestors were enslaved and see how far that will resonate with them.

The Quran is the primary source of Islam. All other sources revolve around it. But the Quran has a context: the life of the Prophet Muhammad (saaw).

Abhab, if you are going to cite 59:6, why not the verses 59:3 thru 59:10 which address the same matter?

Al-Hashr (The Gathering)

59:1 Whatever is in the heavens and on earth, let it declare the Praises and Glory of Allah. for He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

59:2 It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book from their homes at the first gathering (of the forces). Little did ye think that they would get out: And they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah. But the (Wrath of) Allah came to them from quarters from which they little expected (it), and cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their dwellings by their own hands and the hands of the Believers, take warning, then, O ye with eyes (to see)!

59:3 And had it not been that Allah had decreed banishment for them, He would certainly have punished them in this world: And in the Hereafter they shall (certainly) have the Punishment of the Fire.

59:4 That is because they resisted Allah and His Messenger. and if any one resists Allah, verily Allah is severe in Punishment.

59:5 Whether ye cut down (O ye Muslim!) The tender palm-trees, or ye left them standing on their roots, it was by leave of Allah, and in order that He might cover with shame the rebellious transgresses.

59:6 What Allah has bestowed on His Messenger (and taken away) from them - for this ye made no expedition with either cavalry or camelry: but Allah gives power to His apostles over any He pleases: and Allah has power over all things.

59:7 What Allah has bestowed on His Messenger (and taken away) from the people of the townships,- belongs to Allah,- to His Messenger and to kindred and orphans, the needy and the wayfarer; In order that it may not (merely) make a circuit between the wealthy among you. So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah. for Allah is strict in Punishment.

59:8 (Some part is due) to the indigent Muhajirs, those who were expelled from their homes and their property, while seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure, and aiding Allah and His Messenger. such are indeed the sincere ones:-

59:9 But those who before them, had homes (in Medina) and had adopted the Faith,- show their affection to such as came to them for refuge, and entertain no desire in their hearts for things given to the (latter), but give them preference over themselves, even though poverty was their (own lot). And those saved from the covetousness of their own souls,- they are the ones that achieve prosperity.

59:10 And those who came (into the faith) after them say: Our Lord Forgive us and our brethren who were before us in the faith, and place not in our hearts any rancor toward those who believe. Our Lord! Thou art Full of Pity, Merciful.

_____________________________

What this Quranic section is addressing the treachery of Banu Nadir who waged war on the Muslims twice. The first time in Madinah, they were exiled and they broke down their homes in order to take out their wealth and possessions with them. Allah mentions this. The second time they were defeated again and their wealth fell to the Muslims. But it was not pillaging or hording like liars allege.

In fact there is a great deal of jurisprudence revolving around the categories of property and wealth acquired in war and how it is to be distributed properly, including to the poor and needy. In this case, its called the fay`, or booty collected without horses or camels as the verse mentioned. And the Prophet Muhammad (saaw) took a year's worth of expenses for his family and left the rest for the Baitul Mal, or Central Bank according to hadith. Incidently, the Prophet bought armor and clothes for his family and some food, and the property had an orchard which he fed his family with as well as fed his guests and diplomats.

But even then, he gave in charity to any who came to him thereafter. And just as the records state of how Allah commanded in the Quran a portion go to the Prophet, the Prophet still gave it out to any who needed it. And the hadith have 100s of recordings of this, people of all kinds coming to his mosque asking, and he giving everything until there was nothing left but a few dates for his family.

As for the case of Dhilya, only Ibn Ishaaq reports that he complained. In fact, Ibn Ishaaq and others report that the Muslim companions discovered Safiyyah as part of the slaves taken after the battle and mentioned that she was a woman of high status. The Prophet (saaw) did not realize this at first.

Like it or not, a people who remain together against the Muslims twice waging war, were unable to live peacefully. In this case, since exile was tried once before but failed, slavery was a way to integrate such a belligerent, rebellious people into the society. Safiyyah was in slavery most likely because her father was the chief who tried to assasinate the Prophet and conspired for war. But Safiyyah proved to be unlike her father. She was an honorable, dignified, upright, good person. And she recieved freedom AND a higher status.

http://saddleback.com/flash/believe2.html

One seriously has to wonder about what motivates these charlatans given their political history for the past 25 years. Anti-gay-ism, abortion, school prayer are no longer resonating with the financially strapped public. Thus, to remain relevant, they have to try the next best thing. Perhaps, if they give up their ostentious living and cease ripping off 10% from the religious poor and middle-class, they would have done enough.

Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is the stone which was rejected by you builders, but which has become the head of the corner. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Billy Graham knew that only by the name of Jesus are you saved. This is what he preached and he saved perhaps millions of peole.

I am disappointed to learn that perhaps Rick Warren does not believe that you are only saved by the name of Jesus.

Allah is not the same God as our Father God who is one with the Christ Jesus. Muslims don't believe this and hence they worship Allah not God. Their cry is Allah is Great while our cry is God is Great. Worship of false God's like Allah, will end in destruction or the soul and of our civilization.

Farnaz:

I have spent a decade working in Africa and the Middle East while working in the telecom industry. I probably have more direct, recent familiarity with these institutions than you do (though I could certainly be wrong, it seems unlikely, given the tone of your reports). Dredging up "why, back in my Daddy's day, we used religion as..." has very little relevance, as the world has changed significantly since the bad old days of colonialism (though not necessarily for the better).

As the risk of boring you, I will repeat an obvious truth: In situations where local religious groups are part of the problem (and this is often true), then this method is unlikely to be effective. But in many communities that I ended up traveling through or working in, faith communities tended to help rather than exacerbate the situation.

You continue to talk about how assistance using your personal world view is bound to be better. We all say that - the question is, are you willing to work with other altruistic folks who have different belief systems? Rick Warren says, "Of course", your response seems to be "no help is better than ones that I personally don't approve of".

Farnaz,

I read the article and all of the comments. I feel compelled to challenge you on some things.

"Conversion is the price tag Christianity attaches to much of its help abroad."

No. This is a baseless, biased generalization and you know it. No Christian group or church who offers aid or relief to those who need it in foreign nations is going to require conversion before assistance is rendered. Besides, you, being a so-called intellectual, should know evangelism is a core part of Christianity. It's what Christians are called to do. Condemning them for evangelizing is foolish. It would be like condemning American politicians for campaigning, even though they're supposed to do it. Again, it's foolish.

Think of it in a different way: Foreigners are forever critical of U.S. aid. They believe any attempt we make to offer aid or assistance abroad (during a war, after a natural disaster, etc) we would just be using "help" as a guise for American Imperialism. Critics and naysayers in this country agree with this notion, of course. I, however, do not agree. It's all too easy to cynically condemn a group's noble efforts when it's associated with government or church. Despite what you and others feel, Conquer and Convert is not the American way or the Christian way.

"I would very much like to see tax exempt status for religious institutions ended forthwith."

Why? Because they don't deserve it? Because it shows some kind of favoritism or support by our government? Are you regurgitating the ol' "separation of Church and State" thing? Or are you simply looking for any number of ways to snub churches in general? Perhaps you wish to take away the celebration of Christmas too.

"Whatever faith-based nonsense remains to be challenged in the Supreme Court, I hope to see there ASAP."

So, anything faith-based is "nonsense." This implicitly shows your true feelings on faith, God, religion et al. It's all nonsense to you. Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion but I need to ask you two favors. Please be more honest with your hatred of God and his believers and don't ever claim to be a Humanist.

Your rhetoric and jargon smacks of the absence of intelligence and reason, not the presence of it. To claim you're a Humanist would be an insult to those who actually are as well as the very definition of the word itself. Humanists don't believe in God like others do, of course, but they seek truth, not pervert it. Too many God-haters like you tout Humanist beliefs but still busy themselves with intellectual posturing and sanctimonious atheist jargon.

Just a quick correction for LETTIE1: I like your old school perspective of doing good deeds "in secret" so as to not draw attention to yourself! However, you need to go back and check your reference to the Bible. Jesus never prohibited doing any good deeds in public (which would be a little silly, if you think about it). The "acts of righteousness" that he prohibited from doing "before men, to be seen by them" refers to giving offerings for the needy or praying "while standing in the synagogue or on street corners." (Matthew 6:1-6) You might note that Peter, Paul, Stephen and other Christians did indeed use street "preaching" in their ministries, especially because it was a common practice for religious leaders and philosophers of their day.

Mr. Patel, I thank you for your article, but your characterization of Rick Warren does risk a significant misrepresentation of his "worldview." It would be much clearer to describe his approach in the following way: With regards to theology, Warren firmly believes and teaches that faith in Jesus Christ is the only means by which anyone can receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life in a personal relationship with God. With regards to social problems and human suffering, Warren believes that Christians can and should join hands with people and established institutions of all faiths for the sake of providing a significant amount of relief. Although you commented that Warren used the "language of a religious pluralist", you must know that he is nothing of the kind. He simply does not adhere to the non-biblical notion that having friendships and social activist relationships with non-Christians is tatamount to the approval of their religious beliefs or worldviews. If you are encouraged that an increasing number of evangelical Christians share Pastor Warren's perspective on social activism, then I share that sentiment. If you are implying that "evangelical" Christians are increasingly holding to a pluralistic view of theology and soteriology, then you may indeed be right, but you should be careful not to attribute such a position to Rick Warren and others like myself. In fact, it would be a little silly to call someone with a pluralistic perspective of religion an "evangelical" Christian, wouldn't it? Blessings to you!

Usama1, Usama1, Usama1,

Indeed if you really were a former bred, born and brainwashed Christian, you now have unfortunately have been brainwashed into the Islamic cult.

We offer a free, Five Step Method for Deprogramming Islam:

Are you ready?

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc.

No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic nonsense!!!!

The usual problem with anyone pushing their religious views on everyone:

Disagree with me on ANY of MY views and you will burn in hell for eternity! And I'll find another candidate who's spineless and who'll bend over backwards for ME.

Usama answers my post thus:
"Ibn Ishaaq is an early Muslim scholar who did not have the high intellectual standards or scholarly rigor developed by later scholarship.”
Moi:
How about Tabari, Bukhari, and Quran?

Qur'an 59:6 "What Allah gave as booty to His Messenger He has taken away from them [the Jews]. For this you made no raid. Allah gives His Messenger Lordship over whomsoever He wills. Whatever booty Allah has given to His Messenger and taken away from the [Jewish] people of the townships, belongs to Allah and to His Messenger.... So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you."

“Muhammad (saaw) liberated the city of Khaybar.”
Moi:
Is this another way to say looted, pillaged killed and enslaved?

“By marrying Safiyya, Muhammad (saaw) united two opposing Jewish tribes.”
Moi:
What a noble sentiment! It was not for lust and greed. Peruse what follows.

Tabari VIII:130 "The Prophet conquered Khaybar by force after fighting. Khaybar was something that Allah gave as booty to His Messenger. He took one-fifth of it and divided the remainder among the Muslims.

Ishaq:511 "When Dihyah protested, wanting to keep Safiyah for himself, the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims.

Conclusion: You and your like insult the intelligence and knowledge of the readers with all those outrageous claims.Get real!

iamweaver:

I don't know how to be any clearer. Religious institutions are inherently oppressive in many countries. It could be argued that converting the Dalit is a good thing, since it could enable them to move into the business class. That is, those who aren't enslaved. ON the other hand, in time it would raise the ire of the Hindus if it occurred on a large scale and would be viewed as imperialism. Wonder why.

If you cast your eyes beyond the borders of this country, outside of Europe to the African continent to Asia you will find first the missionaries, then the anthropologists, then the imperialists. The order is rough, since occasionally there was overlap.

Christianization is the first step in imperialism.
Always was, Speak to anyone from a developing nation.

The best solution is well-planned, well-coordinated, nonsectarian aid, drawing on local knowledge.

How does a person get to heaven? Is there one right answer?

One final note - your last sentences are, again, a supporting factor for Rick Warren's ideas. His method of utilizing resources "on the ground" goes against the traditional missionary movement (actually, I am sure it's designed to supplement it). This reduces the number of the poor who end up believing in things that you do not, so why you keep harping on the traditional methods of evangelism is rather beyond me...

Farnaz:

Adjectives are everything. I said, "less concerned", not "blithely unconcerned". Yet your examples are weak - your first example is rather off topic and yet is an argument on my side - those eBil Commies were doing more good than sugar-daddy US, supporting a dictator with one hand and grasping at military profits with the other. If I were a traditional fundamentalist Christian I would have been behind the US all the way, yet I am not...

I assume that in your second example, you are showing that in the cases where local society is fragmented, it might not be possible to utilize local religious resources because they are part of the very power structure that is oppressing those who are marginalized. So true. Then again, I cannot use a saw to help me build a mud-daub house, but that doesn't make the saw a useless tool, just one that cannot be applied in all circumstances.

The second part of your post confuses me, though. Are you angry that someone is helping the Dalit? Or are you positing that the conversion to Christianity is worse than their initial condition?

You seem bent on preventing anyone who does not share your world view from assisting others, or if they do so, that they must do so in a fashion that allows your world-view to prevail. That seems the more naive path, to me.

Abhaab,
I welcome discourse on the life of the Prophet Muhammad (saaw) and the beginning of Islamic history.

1) Ibn Ishaaq is an early Muslim scholar who did not have the high intellectual standards or scholarly rigor developed by later scholarship. So much of his early work was criticized, revised, and editted several times by prominent later scholars. Even his original work is not accepted as a source by certain schools of jurisprudence. So simply quoting Ibn Ishaaq to establish something about Islam or the Prophet Muhammad (saaw) is intellectually unsound and inferior. But for the purpose of misinformation and spreading lies or mislead unknowing readers, I suppose it works. Except those truly seeking the TRUTH will be guided regardless.

2) Safiyya was a princess and daughter of the chief of a prominent Jewish tribe called Banu Nadir. She was also from noble maternal lineage from another Jewish tribe called Banu Qurayza. She was also a descendent of the Prophet Aaron (as), the brother of the Prophet Moses (as). Both of these tribes once were at peace with the Muslims of Madinah, having signed a Covenent with the Prophet Muhammad (saaw).
And one of the tenets of the Covenant: Loyalty to the covenant protects against treachery.

3) Khaybar was a city in northern Arabia to the north of Madinah lying on the trade route between Makka and the Roman empire in Jerusalem and Damascus. It was not originally a Muslim city. Rather, its leaders supported war against Madinah.

4)There are many Quranic verses addressing the relations between the Jewish tribes of Madinah, including Banu Nadir, and the Muslims. After the Muslims were defeated by the Makkans at the battle of Uhud, Banu Nadir chose to betray their covenant with Muhammad (saaw) because they thought the Muslims were weak and they could recapture control of Madinah. They plotted to assasinate Muhammad when he visited his enclave. But he discovered their plot.

5)Prophets of God do NOT take kindly to treachery in violation of Covenant recognized by God. Just look at how Moses dealt with such treachery. But Muhammad (saaw) was lenient on Banu Nadir, allowing them exile to the city of Khaybar. Safiyya went to Khaybar with her father who tried to assasinate the Prophet (saaw).

6)Another Jewish tribe of Madinah, Banu Qaynuqa, violated the Covenant but the Prophet was lenient on them too, allowing them exile to Khaybar.

7)While in Khaybar, both Jewish tribes conspired with the Makkans to attack Madinah. So the Muslims of Madinah were surrounded, Makka invaded from the south and Khaybar and the various Arab tribes of the north invaded from the north. This was called the battle of the Ditch. But the Muslims prevailed.

8)Muhammad (saaw) signed a peace treaty with Makka after the Battle of the Ditch called the treaty of Hudaybiyah. After this, he faced Khaybar which conspired against Madinah and was NOT a signatory to the treaty.

9)Muhammad (saaw) liberated the city of Khaybar, but much of the property and wealth of the city was forfeited as spoils of war. But the people of Khaybar were allowed to remain. Casaulties numbers after the battle at Khaybar: 11 Muslims, 39 Jews.

10)Safiyya (raa) was held as a captive and slave after her father and husband were killed. But the Prophet Muhammad (saaw) granted her freedom and offered to marry her, which she chose and accepted Islam. She was henceforth titled: Mother of the Believers, the highest of status of the Muslim people which she upheld with honor and dignity until she passed away years later being held in the highest regard by all Muslims and buried in the cemetary next to the Prophet's mosque in Madinah. So the treacherous legacy of her father put her in slavery, but God provided her wih the highest honor.

11)By marrying Safiyya, Muhammad (saaw) united two opposing Jewish tribes, Banu Nadir and Banu Qurayza, with his own family and the Muslim people at the highest status, an effort to end the destructive conflict permanently.

12)Even after this effort by the Prophet Muhammad (saaw), the Banu Nadir and Banu Qaynuqa in Khaybar conspired and supported Roman invasion from the north which led to 2 military expeditions, one which caused the death of many close companions of the Prophet (saaw). As well, when the Prophet was in Khaybar, his food was poisoned by a Jewish operative. She killed one man and the poison later is considered the cause of death of the Prophet Muhammad (saaw) after he had completed his mission and office, but death is determined only by God.

Inspiring! This is spirit.

Sorry, I am of the old school. Christ taught that you should not go out into the streets and preach and draw attention to yourself. Instead you should do your good deeds in secret. Too many of these "ministers" are sitting atop millions of their own money, and got it under the guise of helping the less fortunate.

If that's true, live like Mother Teresa did. Like one of the poor - then I would be more apt to donate.

CCNL,
Islam is NOT necessarily represented in what the Muslim people do or do not do in their societies today. Islam is the way of life specified in the revelation from God found in the Quran and collected traditions of the Prophet Muhammad (saaw). Thus, a former Christian like myself can embrace Islam NOT because of the actions of the Muslims anywhere in the world, but by learning about Islam from Quran, the book of revelation from God.

So please recognize that many of the problems facing the Muslim world regarding all sorts of things are indeed deplorable and incorrect based on Islamic criteria.

But also recognize that the litany of rights violations percieved by Hirsi Ali or Rushdie are also highly subjective, prejudiced. So for example, she supports women's rights but ignores oppression against men, unless she means only gay men. In fact one could argue Hirsi Ali supports oppression of Muslim men.

But position is really predicated on her support for Western secular ideology, which prompted Western powers to elevate her as a spokesperson and figurehead. Today, she is sponsored by the Neo Conservative American Enterprise Institute (AEI), which also supports the world's leading oil power: ChevronExxon, the global Capitalist banking industry ( represented by Wall Street and the biggest corruption of assets in human history), and the PNAC neo con militarist think tank which led to the suspension of American liberties and the War on Iraq.

As well, the criteria of 'universal human rights' is not 'universal'. It originates with an intellectual bias born of Western ideological thought, NOT "universal" thought.
This venue is too restrictive to go indepth, but the 'universal human rights' propagated by Hirsi Ali and Rushdie are formally the ideological position of Western thought endorsed by UN members who were placating the global primacy of America and the European powers post WWII. The Enlightenment era of Europe generated the theories of individualism, humanism, capitalism, pertaining to Judeo-Christian, European and Eurocentric dilemmas- not necessarily universal dilemmas- which indicate the prejudice of this criteria.

iamweaver:

"Unlike you, I am less concerned with whose hand holds out the food, or teaches the course, or repairs the dwelling, than I am with the fact that someone is fed, or learns, has shelter."

You are either very naive or not well read in world affairs. Whose hand is everything. As a Christian, you should be able to grasp this, at least in a moral sense.

Let me give you an example from history. While we were supporting a dictator in South Vietnam talking about freedom, the Communists were inching up the North, bringing food, medicine, literacy, etc.

Guess what happened?

How will the Dalit be helped by Rick Warren's "vision"? Right now, they're being helped by Catholics who are converting them.
At best, Rick Warren is naive like you. At worst, he's full of hot air. Guess who's all over the African continent helping and converting? Christians.

First come the missionaries, then the anthropologists. Do you know who comes next?

Happy New (Jewish) Year!
Jesus said be humble and do what needs to be done. I'm glad to hear the humility is starting to replace bigotry in the Evangelical community. May this year be full of such news!
Peace,
Marc

Usama says:
“As for the lie that he (Mohammad) is greedy.
This is laughable given its such a lie blatantly in conflict with reality and all historical accounts. Not even the Prophet's (saaw) worst enemies made such a claim because they knew it was a lie.
He never kept anything for himself or his family.”

I shall let your cult’s annonated hadith books answer some of your flagrant allegations.

Ishaq:307 "The 'Spoils of War' Surah came down from Allah to His Prophet concerning the distribution of the booty when the Muslims showed their evil nature. Allah took it out of their hands and gave it to the Apostle."

Bukhari:V5B59N512 "The captives of Khaybar were divided among the Muslims. Then the Messenger began taking the homes and property that were closest to him."

Ishaq:511 "So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered home by home. The Messenger took some of its people captive, including Safiyah and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself."

Ishaq:511 "When Dihyah protested, wanting to keep Safiyah for himself, the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims."

Tabari VIII:130 "The Prophet conquered Khaybar by force after fighting. Khaybar was something that Allah gave as booty to His Messenger. He took one-fifth of it and divided the remainder among the Muslims."
More of the same on the cite listed below.

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes.Islam

Rick Warren does NOT speak for the Christian faith or church. He speaks for an apostate church that pushes pluralism. The First Commandment was written down by Moses, not Rick Warren! "I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." Exodus 20:2,3 That is one God, singular. Warren is a sissy who has bought into an endtime Babylonian theology as a result of his strong delusion. Don't even begin to compare him to Rev. Billy Graham. Call him a "Billy Goat" instead because he is not part of God's sheep who know His voice. Jesus' voice said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life: no man cometh to the Father but by ME." John 14:6 Why does the media always pick sissies to speak for the Church? Warren is not the voice of the Church, he's an weak echo. If you want to hear a real voice, go to thenextstrike.com for a State of the Union address you will not soon forget!

LOL!!! Is a Tulsa sky scraper now going to be his new base of operations?? Is he going to make a stand like charlatans before him?? This man is a JOKE! Same ole hand waving, fake fire breathing, smoke spewing, crap peddling as the last bozo..

These fairy tale tellers should all head to somewhere else and lay hands on each other so they all go away at the same time...

It is good for a daily laugh...

You asked Warren to say something positive about Muslims -- well how about saying something positive about atheists and agnostics, who labor to make a better world without hope of an after life and little reward expected in this world.

Who's the better person? Someone who serves others in the hope of attaining heaven, or someone who serves others and knows there is no reward at the end except the knowledge of having done the right thing?

>

Warren's words and works make a lot of sinners comfortable with performing their sins...nothing more. It's such a shame that Rick Warren doesn't grasp the gospel message...that there is salvation from sin. I read his Purpose Driven nonsense, and nearly every Scripture reference twisted the meaning of the verses into what HE wanted them to mean. He's just like Joel Osteen...a master at entertainment ... nothing more. His greed is his motivation, not saving souls.

As for saying that Warren is another Bully Graham is a terrible insult to Graham and every other true Christian. He's such a phony! His supporters rave about his unselfishness in pointing out that he has returned a lot of his pay back to the church. Not a big deal at all when one OWNS the church; it still goes back into his pocket!

"Rick Warren is our new Billy Graham"

Sorry, Mr. Warren. I know Billy Graham. He is a friend of mine. And you sir aren't no Billy Graham.

Always lookout for someone who says "you people"

Enemyofthestate-

I don't see many atheist organizations out there helping to solve poverty. Mostly it appears to be a alot of whining about how people actually believing in God, and make assumptions about believers that are far reaching.
_________________________________________________

Hello???? There are no atheist organizations out there,,,It would kind of defeat the purpose of being an atheist, Dim wit!

I would be willing to bet that there are just as many atheist out there, helping mankind, as there are supposed Christians, just because you are a Christian (Which I really doubt!) does not mean you hold the reins on morals...

CCNL

You wrote, "The simple preacher man aka Jesus, noted apparently while a prostitute bathed his feet in oil, "You will always have the destitute/poor with you, but you will not always have me" when the apostles complained about spending money on the oil (and prostitute??). Very strange comment by Jesus to begin with and way too much made of it with respect to the poor and destitute. A real diety, IMO, would have said, "away wench, we are in the business of ending poverty". He didn't and couldn't because he was not diety!!!"

Have you ever thought that maybe the "business of ending poverty" was not the reason that God became One of Us?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

There can be no solution with religion. Solutions to poverty and the environment have to do with reason and logic. Religion is about faith and about denying reason.

When someone says that religion can be used for good, you better run the other way and fast.

Yonkers, New York
30 September 2008

The way Eboo Patel describes him, Rick Warren of the Saddleback Church indeed appears to be a different kind of evangelical Christian in that he has secular concerns like POVERTY and RELIGIOUS DIVERSITY, other than religious or ideological concerns such as abortion, birth control, same-sex marriage, and a religious litmus test for judges, which are the priority if not the exclusive and obsessive concerns of most other evangelical Christians.

My sense is that America and the world would be a better place if there were more of Rick Warren's kind around.

But, alas, Rev. Warren is a rara avis!

Mariano Patalinjug
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

The simple preacher man aka Jesus, noted apparently while a prostitute bathed his feet in oil, "You will always have the destitute/poor with you, but you will not always have me" when the apostles complained about spending money on the oil (and prostitute??). Very strange comment by Jesus to begin with and way too much made of it with respect to the poor and destitute. A real diety, IMO, would have said, "away wench, we are in the business of ending poverty". He didn't and couldn't because he was not diety!!!

A well-written article. Having taught "A Purpose Driven Life" to my adult Bible study class several years ago, I found Rick Warren to be a different brand of protestant. I was pleased that my Southern Baptist Church took time out from the normal curriculum to teach Warren's book. Unfortunately, my church as well as the SBC doesn't get it. I am still waiting for the SBC to free itself from the clutches of fundamentalism.

I have been behind Warren in some things but I can't get behind him in this. I really have to wonder if he is trying to do too much by his own strength. Maybe he should be doing what God's word preaches and let God do the rest.

I do think there are some situations where joining with other religions on like minded issues, but this is not one of them. The main reason is the nature of poverty. Poverty is a product of evil in this world, such as war, steeling, dishonesty, promiscuity, laziness, and opression. The way to eliminate poverty is to make people moral. There are other ways to help people but until we get morality as the basis, there will always be poverty.

The Bible tells us that the poor will always be among us and we are to help them. The real help is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which promotes morality and moreover saves the soul. I have seen the Gospel change a group of people from literally living in their own filth to clean and responsible people. The change in their living circumstances doesn't compare to their change of heart. I really believe that as Christians we must believe that the Gospel is the only true way to help people.

I am not saying that other religions or groups can't help poverty, and they should. I just don't agree with joining too closely with them. They obviously won't support my Gospel and I can't support their message. Christian's need to stand on their ideals first.

I have to be faithful in what I have seen and I think Rick Warren should be too. Is he really supporting a group that promotes other ways to God when he knows the true way? Does he think that other religions can really combat poverty effectively without the truth. I would like to hear his answer.

No word by Mr. Patel on Muslims blowing up 950 civlians during Ramadan (TROP website).

From the Concerned Christian now Liberated:

usama1, usama1, usama1,

Hmmm, nothing about the hallucinations of Mahoud?? Nothing about his warmongering and forcing those conquered to bow five times a day to his capital and fictional god?? Nothing about the harems of slave girls? Nothing about the "pretty thingie" named angel Gabriel without whom Islam crumbles to the reality of a sad tale of plagiarism of ancient scriptures and the mumbo jumbo therein??

Nothing about the Islamic male's treatment of women like they are fodder with such treatment bein standard koranic operating procedures??

Nothing about the substantiation of all of this in Ayaan Ali Hirsi's biography, Infidel??

e.g.

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."
ref: Washington Post book review.

excerpts:

p. 47 paperback issue:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

p. 347

"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

Nothing about the stinging commentary by Sir Salman Rushdie in his book "Satanic Verses", e.g. p. 376, paperback issue?? -

"The faithful lived by lawlessness, but in those years Mahound - or should one say the Archangel Gibreel? - should one say Al-Lah? - became obsessed by law.

Amid the palm-trees of the oasis Gibreel appeared to the Prophet and found himself spouting rules, rules, rules, until the faithful could scarcely bear the prospect of any more revelation, Salman said, rules about every damn thing, if a man farts let him turn his face to the wind, a rule
about which hand to use for the purpose of cleaning one's behind.

It was as if no aspect of human existence was to be left unregulated, free. The revelation - the recitation- told the faithful how much to eat, how deeply they should sleep, and which sexual
positions had received divine sanction, so that they leamed that sodomy and the missionary position were approved of by the archangel, whereas the forbidden postures included all those in which the female was on top.

Gibreel further listed the permitted and forbidden subjects of conversation, and earmarked the parts of the body which could not be scratched no matter how unbearably they might itch. He vetoed the consumption of prawns, those bizarre other-worldly creatures which no member of the faithful had ever seen, and required animals to be killed slowly, by bleeding, so that by experiencing their deaths to the full they
might arrive at an understanding of the meaning of their lives, for it is only at the moment of death that living creatures understand
that life has been real, and not a sort of dream.

And Gibreel the archangel specified the manner in which a man should be buried, and how his property should be divided, so that Salman the Persian got to wondering what manner of God this was that soundedso much like a businessman.

This was when he had the idea that
destroyed his faith, because he recalled that of course Mahound himself had been a businessman, and a damned successful one at that, a person to whom organization and rules came naturally, so
how excessively convenient it was that he should have come up with such a very businesslike archangel, who handed down the management decisions of this highly corporate, if noncorporeal, God."

More on Islam and farting: (i.e. Sir Rushdie and the Apostate got it right)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/1503931/Prayer-Recitation-of-Quran-and-Ablution-or-Bath?query2=islam%20fart

"Farting is problematic in Islam. During prayer, a worshipper must not fart. Sahih Bukhari (1.4.137) writes that Allah will not accept a Muslim’s prayer if he/she passes wind during the ritual.

The exception occurs if the worshipper farts silently, or the fart does not smell. In such a case, he/she may continue with the prayer (ibid, 1.4.139).Sunaan Nasai (1.162) writes that if you fart during a prayer you must redo ablution. Sahih Bukhari (9.86.86) says that for a “farter” Allah will not accept his/her prayer until he/she performs another ablution."

And nothing about the new DVD "Obsession" that in vivid detail shows the violence of Islam and the total disregard Islam has for life????

With respect to the illiterate Mahound, check Karen Armstrong's many books on Islam and religions in general.

Enemyofthestate-

I don't see many atheist organizations out there helping to solve poverty. Mostly it appears to be a alot of whining about how people actually believing in God, and make assumptions about believers that are far reaching.

CCNL, you are delusional and lost.

Muhammad was illiterate because he was an orphan and his family was too poor to educate him. Subsequently, he taught 10s of 1000s the Quran, which led to millions to be literate in the fantastic, eloquent, expansive arabic language. So an illiterate man led to millions to be literate.

Womanizer?
Hmm. That's a salacious lie from the amoral. Muhammad adhered to the strictest and highest Abrahamic social standards, which are revelation based. I realize many man-hating women, and emasculated men, are aghast at the notion that any man can have more than one consenting wife.
Given the tremedous personality of the Prophet Muhammad (saaw), whose accomplishments repeatedly rank him to be the most influential man in human history who even today, 1400 years later, retains massive global political power, the fact that he had more than one wife is really inconsequential given that he treated them fairly, gently, kindly, and advocated love, mercy, and gentleness, and care towards women.

But America is a society unable to organize and manage sexuality and social relations to the advancement and progress of mankind. America chose INSTEAD to opt out of ANY 'legal' culpability for dealing with social relations with authority by leaving it to be a choice of 'personal freedom' and municipal jurisdictions.

Thus, today you had dozens of municipalities outlaw multiracial marriages, but turn a blind eye to adultery. This led to municipalities permitting strip clubs, prostitution, pornography shops, nude resorts, private sex clubs, swinger clubs, and more. Sex is also a multibillion dollar product sold on the worldwide 'free market', with San Fernando valley outside of Los Angeles being the center of the world's porn industry. As well, SEX is teached as a commodity to sell everything in America and Europe, including the fact that sexually attractive women are intentionally employed as receptioniss in offices in order to make clients favorable towards a business. Not to mention every other facet in the media.

Shall I mention how sexual perversion continues to poison America to the point that most parents are afraid that the perversions of their neighbor will lead them to snatch their child?

__________________________

Muhammad taught sex ONLY in marriage (and the legal institution of slavery which all Abrahamic faiths endorse 1400 years ago), not outside of it and not to perverse self gratification.
Christians in America today have failed to do what Muhammad did 1400 years ago.

As for the lie that he is greedy.
This is laughable given its such a lie blatantly in conflict with reality and all historical accounts. Not even the Prophet's (saaw) worst enemies made such a claim because they knew it was a lie.
He never kept anything for himself or his family. He lived in self imposed poverty even when he could have heaped gold on himself and jewels on his wives. He died with only a tiny orchard several years old and no personal belongings but a few robes of simple cloth. In fact Muhammad (saaw) was the most generous of all, giving everything to others. As a ruler, he gave to the poor and needy even depriving himself of food so the needy had food for themselves. This is common knowledge among Arab nonMuslims, Jews and Christians, so that many rich nonMuslim Arabs hated the Prophet Muhammad (saaw) precisely BECAUSE he represented such austerity and giving to others that they felt bad about hording wealth and resented it.

From the Concerned Christian now Liberated:

Eboo, Eboo, Eboo,

You noted: "That is American religion at its best."

Until the koran is corrected, please do not include Islam as part of the American religious scene.

Once again the reality of Islam:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

The quote - "Rick Warren is our new Billy Graham"... grieves my heart.

Billy Graham spent his life preaching the gospel -proclaiming Jesus Christ as the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE. In John 14:6, "Jesus said, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.'" Billy Graham's message is Jesus death as payment for the sins of the world and Jesus resurrection from the dead to conquer death and the grave for all who put their faith in Jesus alone.

Rick Warren is not concerned with preaching truth. He takes scripture out of context and uses it for his own selfish ambitions. If Rick Warren is trying to unite the world... it certainly isn't to attain peace, but rather to one day take the credit for it - promoting himself above all others to include the Lord, Jesus Christ.

Additionally, in response to other numerous posts - Christians are not out to deceive people by handing them food in exchange for a conversion. The heart of the true follower of Jesus Christ is a heart of love and compassion for the unbeliever. The reason we love is because Christ first loved us. The reason we give is because Christ gave His life. We can not be silent when we know that the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ will set people free. There is no treachery in the message of the Gospel... it is the answer to mankind's core problem - separation from God because of sin. There is no trick... only truth. Read the book of John in the New Testament of the Bible - see the truth for yourself.

Does he talk kindly of people of no faith? What does he admire about non-believers?

Spiderman, read 1 Samuel 2:3

Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.

Farnaz2 - a couple of observations:

Yes - this is "faith-based", but not really by any other name. There is no relabeling - but this is faith-based without the hook of conversion attached from the ones offering the assistance to those local to the problem (I would think that you would applaud that).

I agree absolutely that any pretensions of some great, global change should not be read from this article. We are talking about one preacher in one evangelical denomination of one religion. However, a large number of Christians in many denominations have read his book, "The Purpose Driven Life", in some kind of ecumenical study group, and that no doubt will give his words a little more added weight than the average mega-church pastor.

As for your most important question, "And how precisely would this work?" - I think it's a vital question once one starts moving from rhetoric to action, but the thoughts behind the rhetoric alone would be a big step in a new direction for most faith-based relief and development agencies.

It might well be that Rick Warren doesn't have the answers. That is less important for me than whether the thoughts he raises are valid - and I think that they are, in general. Secular agencies are unlikely to use local religious groups (with or without physical structures), which is, IMO, too bad as I can see that this could be an efficiency multiplier. Unlike you, I am less concerned with whose hand holds out the food, or teaches the course, or repairs the dwelling, than I am with the fact that someone is fed, or learns, has shelter.

Divide By Zero is the GOD number: incalculable and incomprehensible.

A good heart is a good heart- there are no perfect people- and one can deconstruct and find fault with anyone if they try hard enough-
but it is also appropriate to honor and applaud honest efforts when they are expended-
The richness of the giver doesn't diminish the value of the gift.

Today, for me- is the last day of Ramadan- I broke my last fast at 6:52PM today-
Tomorrw, we celebrate Eid- it is supposed to be a 3 day celebration- but honestly- it barely gets one day's notice-
no headlines, no school off for the kids- no acknowledgement on the TV-o any other meda-

It will pass the american landscape basically unnoticed and unapplauded-
but it isn't the accolades of men I am worried about anyway- so-

Eid Mubarak Brother Patel-

As always, your gentle and open-hearted voice is a welcome addtion to my consciousness.

Jesus said "The truth shall set you free".

The problem with this world is they don't have the truth. This world is doomed because so many false beliefs (evolution, false religions, atheism, etc) float around.

Warren will do better if he starts targeting devilish doctrines. Continents would burn because of these false doctrines.

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, SEVERITY; but toward thee, GOODNESS, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF. (Romans 11:22)

MUCH OF THE WORLD WILL BE CUT OFF BY GOD. If Warren's effort will not save their soul, it is useless.

What shall it profit them if Warren heals their body but loses their soul?

wordvarc:

You know it's too bad, really, but I kind of read Warren as you describe him. I couldn't have guessed the specifics, of course, and I thank you for providing them.

Patel presents as a gentle man, but never as a fool. He must know that some of what he writes here is self-contradictory. Perplexing.

Okay, let me come at this another way. Much of what this article concerns is "faith-basedness" by another name.

Let's look at rhetoric and proceed from there to substance. Rick Warren is the new Billy Graham?

"Rick Warren is our new Billy Graham - at the center of not only his own Christian tradition, but of American civil religion as well. Churches follows his direction (most recently into Rwanda), and political candidates seek his blessing (Exhibit A: The Saddleback Forum)."

A. Billy Graham was never at the center of "American civil religion," whatever the heck that means.

B. Churches follow his direction? Huh? Which churches? And what about the mosqs, temples, etc?

Now, let us look at this:

"Those people of faith can be trained to be the arms and legs of any development plan, and those houses of worship can double as clinics, banks and schools."

Really? And, how, precisely would that work? Especially with the Dalit? Gee, that I'd like to know.

Finally, it is probably the case that all this is feel good silliness. Houses of worship cannot double as clinics, and at least for Jews, not as banks, since money cannot be brought into a temple.

Animists don't have temples. Neither do atheists, as least as far as I know.

A much saner approach would be nonsectarian. And no Rick Warren, please.

I mean, hey. Seriously. Just cause a right-winger says 'Christians and Jews *and* Muslims* while trying to sell something political they'd be saying, anyway, don't mean they're 'pluralist.' Don't lose your head, here.

That's not pluralism, that's just trying to say, 'Look, there is blessed sameness on this issue. See?'

Ok, you lost me, here, Mr. Patel.

Unless of course, you're being spoofed like Farnaz is by 'Farnazz.'

"Rick Warren is our new Billy Graham - at the center of not only his own Christian tradition, but of American civil religion as well."

I'd pretty much appreciate not having a 'New Billy Graham.' ...What I remember of *his* 'Crusades' was, 'Just in case Catholicism ain't enough excuse to give each other a hard time, how bout this radical-but-ostensibly-inspiring-yet-deniable-political Moral Majority pablum?'

That was supposed to be 'Interfaith,' too. Only it was Prods and Jews and Papists, then.

Whachu talkin bout, Mr. Patel?

'Interfaith?' cause he mentioned a mosque?

Get a grip.

Individuals send 15"x12"x30" boxes of stuff to Rwanda where Warren flies around in the president's helicopter. They work alone despite expertise existing on how best to help the poor. Most humanitarian organizations view Saddleback's effort's as ineffective and self promoting.

Warren has quite an operation. Many acres of pricey California Real Estate. He's careful never to disclose how he travels or the total budget for his operations. Saddleback claims 70,000 'members; 15-20,000 for 5-6 weekend services. Three lanes of traffic in and out of several access roads. Stadium style orange cones, parking and traffic directors everywhere. Walmart style greeters shaking hands with strangers as though they are best friends. Disneyland style kids facilities. Kid's studying the same message and verses the adults hear in a worship center with stadiun sized TV screens. Cafe settings with big screen TV's to watch the service. A separate corporate executive staff office with security and a security gate...

He's known primarily as a "prooftexter." That's about picking and choosing verses from all over the Bible to prove any point he feels like pushing at the moment. There's little depth. It's sometimes superficially helplful but as problematic as a politician justify an unjustifiable war. It's the difference between a correlational statistic and a true statistical analysis...Good for conversation but not dependable.

Saddleback is the Walmart of megachurches. Warren's success came as a disciple of Peter Drucker who in his later years at Clairmont was saddened by corporate greed and the extreme salaries of corporate executives who had successfully used his organizational techniques and ideas. Drucker turned his efforts to help NPO's. Warren's success was 'blessed' by Drucker's brilliance. Saddleback is a good performance and a great California toll road, not much different than watching television's TBN. His "Purpose Driven" trademark is elegantly derived from the Judeo-Christian teliological concept that history has a purpose, direction, and endpoint based on God's love for mankind. He's proud to be a "good guy around good people" and protects himself from anything deeper or more complicated. While Billy Grahm was described as having an arrogant humility and shamelessly promoted Jesus, Warren's a shameless self promoter. That's about all there is to Warren.

Farnaz2:

Clearly, your definition of price-tag and mine differ. For me, a price tag is a prerequisite for something. To get X, you must purchase it with Y. For you, it seems to be, "if you get X, and admire the person who gave you X, you might decide to emulate them." But that is not the issue in this article, in fact, this article is about an approach that is diametrically opposed to what you see as a concern.

Rick Warren is advocating tying into faith-based local communities, regardless of the faith, and utilizing their cohesiveness and sense of social concern, *regardless* of the local faith. This means, christian outreach programs offering financial assistance to animalistic, or Baha'i, or Buddhist local communities, or even using another faith's outreach programs to assist their local communities.

Finding a link between providing aid to local communities in this fashion and your "price tag" is going to be pretty tough to do - frankly, I don't see it there at all.

As for you concerns about tax-free issues, I don't think that's particularly relevant to this conversation, since coordination of this sort would take place either way.

iamweaver:

I don't think we've read the same essay, and I doubt we're on the same page. Conversion is the price tag Christianity attaches to much of its help abroad. Surely, you don't mean to deny this for to do so would be silly. It may be that Christianity doesn't think of conversion as a price tag, but as an "act of love"; however, when it comes along with education, food, etc., then it is coercion. There is nothing loving about it, no matter who does it.

As for the rest of what you write, it is addressed in my previous comment. I would very much like to see tax exempt status for religious institutions ended forthwith. Whatever faith-based nonsense remains to be challenged in the Supreme Court, I hope to see there ASAP.

Relief efforts should then be planned, coordinated, etc., along nonsectarian lines I suggested in my earlier remarks.

You are right. He mentioned the top 4 (not 5) religions in terms of membership, and, to quote from the article, "rattle[d] off the numbers of Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and Christians in the world ". That doesn't invalidate my point - or rather, that doesn't make your initial statement any more valid.

As for your main point - about the price of assistance, it takes all of one logical deductive step from the prime point of paragraph 6 (and, essentially the entire article) to make it clear that conversion isn't the "pricetag" for those that need assistance, either (of course, for many, it has never been the pricetag). To me as a Christian, that is completely unsurprising. One of the two prime tenets of our faith, to "love your neighbor as yourself", has absolutely no qualifiers attached to that statement.

The article talks about cooperating with other faiths, mostly because many communities have "houses of worship in places where clinics, banks and schools don't exist." I imagine that somewhere in the world there probably exists a few communities where organized groups of atheists exist but the other (secular) institutions such as schools, clinics, and banks are not present - but if so, it's a tiny outlier.

As far as I know, relief and development agencies are the only means outside of their government that both secular and faith-based people use to "help solve poverty". If you know of another vehicle available, please mention it.

From this unbeliever's point of view, I think it's better for the world's religions to be at each other. When they start getting "ecumenism" and working together, that's when I start getting nervous. I don't need them cooperating and ganging up on me.

And - by the way - people of all faiths and no faith provide help to others. Don't make the mistake of thinking that only believers dedicate themselves to a better world.

One World.

Peace.

iamweaver:

"'Interesting whom Mr. Warren omits, Jews for instance, Bahai, animists, atheists, etc.'"

"How is that interesting? You expect him to pull out a book listing all the religious-oriented relief agencies in the world and sonorously read them off in some bizarre opening paragraph? He listed the top 5 religions worldwide in terms of claimed membership. I guess that one might assume that his quick list was somehow limiting - but the scope of his words pretty much invalidates that assumption."
---------------------------------

HUH? First of all, he doesn't discuss "relief agencies." Second, he lists four, not five religions, and third, where does he mention "claimed membership"?

Before I go on, take a moment and reread the article. When you've finished, ponder this: Description is prescription. What is mentioned takes on significance partly in terms of what is not.

As for me, you omit the crucial part of my comment, perhaps because you didn't first read Patel's essay. The price tag of help from the Rick Warrens of this world is conversion. The same is true of the Catholics, who are busy converting Dalit, even as I write.

If Rick Warren wishes to put together an ecumenical anti-poverty program that does not involve conversion, I'd certainly support it AFTER tax exemptions are removed from institutionalized religions.

Said tax dollars, among them my own, should go to a well-planned, well-supervised, well-coordinated, nonsectarian world-wide relief effort.

Farnaz (the one and only around here)

Early Christians were peaceful, never killed and grabbed the land of others; not so in the early years of Islam.
Questions: which Religion in America is a wolf in sheep clothing ? Which Religion is not compatable with american democracy?

Farnaz2 writes:

"Interesting whom Mr. Warren omits, Jews for instance, Bahai, animists, atheists, etc."

How is that interesting? You expect him to pull out a book listing all the religious-oriented relief agencies in the world and sonorously read them off in some bizarre opening paragraph? He listed the top 5 religions worldwide in terms of claimed membership. I guess that one might assume that his quick list was somehow limiting - but the scope of his words pretty much invalidates that assumption.

But as for atheists - AFAIK, there are no major charities that are designed to promote the "null religious" vector (a quick Google search shows only one that might or might not be a scam, but its site has been under construction for an indefinite amount of time, never a good sign), though as I mentioned below, there are many faith-neutral agencies.

Interesting whom Mr. Warren omits, Jews for instance, Bahai, animists, atheists, etc.

People can do whatever they'd like to help those poor who wish their help. The price of assistance should not be conversion (sound familiar, Eboo? It should to Rick Warren), and help should not be subsidized with taxpayer dollars.

Farnaz (the one and only around here)

SkewB writes:

"Engaging all possible partners? I think not Mr. Patel, for I see no mention of non-believers."

Most faith-based charitable organizations already work with "faith-neutral" NGOs like the Red Cross.

Engaging all possible partners? I think not Mr. Patel, for I see no mention of non-believers.

You and yours can go on pretending we don't exist, or that we're some disgruntled fringe group. You can go on acting like faith trumps all other virtues, or that philosophies free of deities are inherently immoral. You can deny that we have anything of value to offer this world. But remember that this behavior reflects the fallibility of your own beliefs, and an underlying prejudice you'd like us all to forget about.

If gluttony is a sin, the obese Mr. Warren is a terrible sinner.

Mr Warren, share some of your food with Africa, you disgusting fatso!

If gluttony is a sin, then the obese Rick Warren is a terrible sinner.