Eboo Patel | Even as Jews and Muslims hog the interfaith headlines with the Pope, other faith communities were represented. They all need to be part of the broader dialogue.
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Dear Eboo, I think it's important to begin with dialogue among the Abrahamic faiths before bringing in other faiths into the process. It is precisely because of the intensity of the differences between the three faiths that there is a greater need for discussion of those differences first before the dialogue is broadened. From my limited experience with inter-faith dialogue, once a multiplicy of faiths are brought into the process, the dialogue gets reduced to platitudes about the lowest common denominators. All faiths do share broad moral values but any attempt to discuss them tends to get hampered by theological differences. Regards
May 3, 2008 2:52 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 3, 2008 02:52
ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
“Rotunda” Hall of the Pope John Paul II Cultural Center of Washington, D.C.
Thursday, 17 April 2008
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2008/april/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20080417_other-religions_en.html
April 25, 2008 12:21 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 25, 2008 00:21
In my opinion, in India, Hindus should lead the efforts to conduct inter-faith dialogue with people of other faiths. Intense ongoing dialogue between Hindus and Muslims is vitally important for genuine and permanent peace in a country which is known for its acceptance of religious plurality. The unwritten ban on Hindus to convert to other religions must be lifted as well. Christianity is nineteen and a half centuries old in India. It should not be treated as a foreign religion or associated with colonial rule. The British political rulers did not engage in religious conversion. Christianity was brought by an Apostle of Jesus, Thomas, within nineteen years of the Resurrection of Jesus 52 AD, and by a Jesuit missionary, Francis Xavier, nearly fifteen centuries later.
April 24, 2008 12:33 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2008 00:33
Dear Mr Patel
I praise and thank God for the great work you do! It is a great blessing to all that you are here on the Washington Post On Faith panel with a blog that calls attention to your ongoing work.
If you loved meeting and knowing Brother Wayne, I'm sure you would have appreciated Dom Bede Griffiths too, who was a combination of an Oxford don and an Indian sannyasi. Thank you for mentioning Fr Bede, who was considered a holy man and visionary in interfaith work by all who knew him. Fr Bede wanted Christians to have a living relationship with people of all faiths and none, based on common values and learning from each other. I consider it a truly great blessing to have known him personally for nearly nine years and got to spend a lot of time with him at Shantivanam and correspond with him.
I wish you all success as you, a Muslim, continue to build bridges with people of all faiths!
Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia
April 24, 2008 12:21 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 24, 2008 00:21
Does anyone know why Karen Armstrong, the local and international "expert" on the development of the Abrahamic faiths, not write much on On Faith? (She is a panelist..)
On my bookshelf sits, still mostly unread, The Great Transformation, (The Beginning of Our Religious Traditions), which has a wealth of information regarding these conversations. CCNL, have you read any of her stuff? I'd love to hear your take on her writing.
I personally would value her input, especially on a topic of "interfaith" issues. Is there a way we can request a response from Ms. Armstrong?
April 23, 2008 2:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2008 14:16
Saudi ruler recently asked for inter faith dialogue but only wanted to include the Abrahamic faiths. There are many migrant Hindu workers in his own country.
Does he not withhold prophet's compassion for all faiths? Why did he leave out Hindus and Buddhists?
April 23, 2008 12:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 23, 2008 12:24
The inter-faith "movement" has been very strong here in the Toledo, Ohio area. There is an annual interfaith blood drive every June for the last 15+ years. The Multifaith Council has sponsored interfaith Habitat builds for the last 5 years or so, among many other interfaith efforts.
Muslims, Christians, Jews, Jains, Sikhs, Buddhists, Baha'is (my faith) and others have participated in activities and social events.
I would like to note one more interesting tidbit about the "Abrahamic faiths": actually the Baha'i Faith would also qualify as an Abrahamic faith since the Forerunner of the Faith, the Bab, was a descendant of Muhammad, who was a descendant of Ishmael (and from Buddha, too) and the Prophet-Founder, Baha'u'llah, descended from Keturah, Abraham's third wife.
April 22, 2008 9:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 21:34
Amazing. WaPo can block everything but this mindless, endless drivel that makes readging the panelists almost impossible.
April 22, 2008 5:43 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 17:43
CCNL:
Meeow!
Now, the question is whether we start having serious secular biblical discussions, including J, subcategories of the J, D, et al, authors, etc. The Q writer for the NT, etc., along with a sociohistorical conversation on the periods in which these various texts were put together.
You write:
Religious myths and superstitions started with the ancients e.g. Hittites, Babylonians, Egyptians. Judaism simply embraced these myths and superstition and wove them into their "monogod" view around 900 BC
Nonsensical, because (a) a sweeping generalization and (b) absurdly simplistic and reductive and at least (c) partly erroneous. (I'll omit superficial and dated, with respect to scholarship)
MOst religions are syncretic, and I have no quarrel with that point. They did not "weave them into a monogod"; I'll post a reading list for anyone interested, during the week.
I suspect what's eating at you is the T word (typology), as well it should. Someone suggested the now seminal philosopher (academically speaking), Levinas. A good, but difficut beginning. There is no debate any longer regarding the connections between supersessionism and typology, between the latter two and conversionism, among all three and imperialism.
An not so early "American" example: typology figures heavily in the writing of the Puritans (devastatingly, with the Pilgrims) as revealed explanations for mass murder. The Puritans, Pilgrams were not fictions.
I'm not going to get into a competition with you or into bickering. You know nothing of Judaism, possibly nothing of Islam, although persons of both faiths have pointed you in the right directions.
You cannot distinguish a Protestant from a Jewish post, for Gawd's sake, as Liora (?) pointed out.
You have not found the one true (Christian) way, my friend. There is no way, only the one you carve out for yourself. You are happy with your brand of Christianity. Good for you. But it doesn't seem to be leading you into considered thinking about other religions or even to curiosity.
The thirty per cent of the NT that is true? (Factual?) The historical existence of Jesus is still hotly debated. Paul, as you should know, is questionable, but current scholarship suggests if he did exist, he existed as nothing other than Paul from Tarsus, as you should also know.
Finally, since (a)it is offensive to refer to MOses (Moshe Rabbeinu), as the Tablet Man, whether or not one believes in his literal existence, I would suggest you find another offensive way to speak of him.
Othewise, since you don't still don't seem to have gotten it, we will no doubt here from the good ILan, who will refer to "Jesus, the water skier." People have been trying to teach you, some gently, some no so gently.
April 22, 2008 4:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 16:50
Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:
Can you answer the question: Where did matter come from?
Where did the universe come from?
One learns from childhood that nothing happens by itself. There has to be someone doing that thing?
So, how did matter come about?
Our answer is: There is a creator.
What is your answer?
April 22, 2008 4:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 16:46
SERENA- if you click on the interfaith youth core underneath mr patel's heading at the top of the page- you will not be able be anything but impressed.
mr patel's work, is anything BUT limited to an abrahamic perspective.
he is well loved in chicago, for this very reason.
promoting interfaith and religious pluralism, which extends past mere 'tolerance' but into active participation and relation building between the young of differing backgrounds-
its right above this post- you cant miss it-
interfaith youth core
April 22, 2008 3:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 15:16
Mormons, Serena... And doubtless many others. :)
April 22, 2008 2:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 14:15
The Greeks and Romans, Babylonians, et al conquered the world because they needed more money and slaves to keep up their lifestyle. The big difference between the Greek/Roman conquests and the later Christian and Muslim conquests is that the Greeks and Romans allowed their victims to keep their religion, as long as they paid tribute to the people in charge. That's where the Jews got into trouble. They refused to acknowledge the Emperor as a God, or even to go through the motions of the expected behavior of good Roman clients of the time. Christian and Moslem empire-building added the dimension of forcing their religion onto the conquered.
April 22, 2008 1:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 13:52
Religious myths and superstitions started with the ancients e.g. Hittites, Babylonians, Egyptians. Judaism simply embraced these myths and superstition and wove them into their "monogod" view around 900 BC. The myths and superstitions continued their march forward with the likes of Catholicism, Islam, and new variations of Catholicism aka "Protesters" to include Mormonism in the mid 1800's.
Time to deflaw them all!!!!
April 22, 2008 1:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 13:25
I can't disagree that interfaith discussions should include all religions, and speaking as a Jew, I can tell you that those in which we participate include as many as they can.
Not being subject to the positions of the Vatican, we are not limited to an Abrahamic perspective, which leaves out certain important questions, such as typology, which is foundational to both Christianity and Islam. It doesn't set the right tone, you see.
(One wonders when we will see the next religion, claiming that the Torah was flawed, the Lord's meaning corrected in the NT--ah, no, sorry--by Mohammed--ah, no--sorry--by X--by Y--by Z--. Whether or not Muslims claim Mohammed is the last, new figures have and will emerge that either ignore him or subsume and supercede him.)
It's unfortunate that given your interest in the Abrahamic religions, you are quite evidently familiar only with the two that followed from the one without which the other two would not have come into being, namely, Judaism.
Your Hagar comment speaks volumes. Then, too, your ignoring certain historically verifiable events in the Qu'ran, the Quarayza Jews, for example, the Qu'oran's portrayal of Jesus, the fact that Muslims view acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God as idolatry and blasphemy, a damning view, also speaks volumes. Easy to select Judaism as a target, no?
But you see, unlike the case of Judaism, in all forms of Christianity, Hagar is a "harlot," nothing more--although I personally have never heard either Jews or Christians use that word.
So often you represent your religion as victimized. That creates problems. So often, you show knowledge of only two religions: Islam and Christianity (primarily Catholicism).
I have always welcomed interfaith dialogue. On that, we agree. However, one needs, to begin interfaith dialogue, at home. Within oneself, in your case, Mr. Patel, within you. The first step for you would be to learn something about the religions you would like to see in dialogue. Then you would gain additional credibilty.
I would add, too, that Jews and Muslims did not "hog the Pope." They are the religious groups he chose to address. The Vatican came up with this Abrahamic business, as you point out.
Perhaps, some of your comments should be directed to the Vatican.
April 22, 2008 12:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 12:49
Somehow I get the feeling that insufficient woe isn't exactly a big problem in the world right now, Anonymous.
April 22, 2008 12:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 12:28
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
April 22, 2008 12:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 12:02
ccnl greeks and romans concur the world. they see eye to eye. they each have evil eyes.
Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!
Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
April 22, 2008 11:58 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 11:58
Well, with Greece, it had much to do with geography. Defending *that* against, say, a massive Eastern empire takes more than a few hundred Spartans once in a while. :)
April 22, 2008 10:40 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 10:40
Patel's argument though very valid but seem to imply Muslims are not including others beyond the Abrahamic Trinity. That's not true atleast in the greater LA area. Visit Interfaith Communities United for Justice & Peace where we not only embrace people of all faiths but "no" faiths that Patel didn't pay attention to.
April 22, 2008 10:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 10:37
Harold,
You asked, "what drove the greek and romans to concur (conquer?) the world ??
Greed and Lust just like the Greed and Lust of Mohammed and his henchmen!!!
April 22, 2008 6:05 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 06:05
Quotes from Buckminster Fuller:
Always loved Buck. Still do.
Farnaz:
Here, here, on both posts.
April 22, 2008 4:44 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 04:44
Mr. Patel:
Having commented on the Abrahamic perspective, about which I remain ambivalent, I would like to say that for the most part, I agree with you. Perhaps, because I live in New York City, and probably because I am who I am, I have acqaintances and friends of different faiths and of no faith.
Further, the dialogue needs to be direct, not mediated by the Vatican, or by newspapers. It needs to include all religions, not least among them, Native American, regardless of the number of adherents.
Farnaz
April 22, 2008 4:28 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 04:28
Does anyone edit these comments?
April 22, 2008 4:13 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 04:13
Mr. Patel,
Initially, I wasn't terribly interested in this Abrahamic business, myself, but upon rereading both the Tanakh in Hebrew and the Qu'ran in Arabic, and then moving back to the relevant parts of the Commentaries (Talmud), I changed my mind. Hagar has a very important role in the Talmud, and notes are appended to all the Chumash. I won't get into the Qu'ran, for the moment (for the moment).
So, I don't know about dropping the Abrahamic business. . . . At least, not from a Jewish perspective. I'm uncertain, that is to say.
Frankly, at this point, I am more and more convinced that religion is a big part of balkanization (aka globalization), that we would all be better off without it, and, I do mean all. Organized religion is still too closely alligned with racial and national figuration, too divisive. It is a way of keeping us fighting with one another instead of resolving our conflcts and directing our energy at those who exploit us. We need a rugged moral secularism, a spirituality, sans theology (ideology).
Farnaz
April 22, 2008 4:05 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 04:05
Asim,
Kindly clarify the ways in which the Torah has been doctored, and by whom.
Thank you.
April 22, 2008 3:52 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 03:52
ccnl said
Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing/"propheteering" scribal biographers who not only added "angels" aka "pretty wingie thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
what drove the greek and romans to concur the world
April 22, 2008 2:52 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 02:52
gideon when the time is right, I will clearly show you that arabs and muslims were a part of the faith of abraham, isaac, and israel. they always were until the roman invasion. what I will prove to you is the neighboring arabs joined the jews to fight the romans and earlier the greeks. the war they waged was a spiritual one, that of the law and prophets. i will show you the jews ceated the gods of christianity. the problem was they fully accepted them and spread the gospels everywhere. it was the purpose to destroy the body and soul. the rise of the muslim faith was the result of this. the hebrew law is clear, just weight and balances. if you read the words of the gospels and nt it was for the current generation. if the roman conquest continued, so would the holy war, their bible until the days of the gentiles were fulfilled. israel is now a kingdom again, my purpose is to set straight and undo the past. jews never added to the gospels and new testament or taught/accepted the roman/greek gentiles. they never revealed the truth, mainly because it was lost in history. the muslim faith was a rebellion to the roman/greek speading their false religion. in the process of this was lost past alignences between jews and arabs. what is your faith based on, the koran. what was the roots of this religion. do you see, hear and perceive what i have revealed. why do you think solomon had so many wives, it was alignences between different tribes. it has been written the worst enemy is the one within your own house. it is against nature to attack other tribes where your own flesh and blood are. that is why they exchanged daughters, it is for each/own protection and interests. all faiths fight over the land, yet they know not what the land is. when you look north, south, east, west, up, down what do you see. i will show you that land means the LORD. that what it means to inherit the earth. god created the earth and the LORD created the earth. on which earth do you walk upon. god created heaven, the LORD created heaven. do you know who god is. god is also north, south, east, west, up, down and beneath. the have 7 directions, the jews have six. there is not hell in the hebrew faith. the LORD did not create hell, god did.
April 22, 2008 2:40 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 02:40
Eboo Patel:
Arabs sprang from the loins of Abraham. Muslims did not. After centuries of living in close proximity, Arabs were very familiar with Judaism, and Paul spent fourteen years spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ in Arabia. Muslims reject both religions and the Koran repeatedly calls Jews and Christians apes and swine, reflecting Mohammed's utter contempt for those faiths.
"What fellowship hath light with darkness or Christ with Belial?"
What possible purpose is there in the true God having fellowship with false gods? The answer is simply that He never does. The false religions are just stroking themselves and gaining legitimacy by stroking others.
April 22, 2008 1:20 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 01:20
HAROLD:
Your posts are far too short. Please include the entire Bible next time.
April 22, 2008 1:11 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 22, 2008 01:11
“when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness” “that ye came near unto me” “in the heart an house for the name of the Lord” “thou didst well that it was in thine heart”
The House of David, The LORD, is in the heart. I ask you wise men, has the House been rebuilt. Have I sown “peace, peace be unto thee, and peace be to thine helpers” Some say you reap what you sow, judge me according to my works, Faith, Hope, Love, Peace
The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.”
“the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice”
“when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness”
“that ye came near unto me”
”it was in the heart of David my father to build an house for the name of the Lord”
“in the heart an house for the name of the Lord”
“thou didst well that it was in thine heart”
‘If ye be come peaceably unto me to help me, mine heart shall be knit unto you”
“in the heart an house for the name of the Lord”
“thou didst well that it was in thine heart”
“Thine are we, David, and on thy side”
“peace, peace be unto thee, and peace be to thine helpers”
the end of that man is peace
Faith, Hope, Love, Peace
“Blessed is the man that doeth this”
“Thine are we, David, and on thy side”
“peace, peace be unto thee, and peace be to thine helpers”
April 21, 2008 11:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 23:56
"What I am trying to do is to discover why God included humans in Universe."
Well, I dunno about your God, but sometimes I think we're primarily 'meant to be' Mammagaia's extinction-level-event-defense system. "Hey, let's make some critters good at hitting things with other things!"
...A little over time and budget, but hey. ;)
April 21, 2008 11:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 23:39
The nearest each of us can come to God is by loving the truth.
What humans have spontaneously identified as good and bad — or as positive and negative — are evolutionary complementations in need of more accurate identifications.
This book is written with the conviction that there are no 'good' or 'bad' people, no matter how offensive or eccentric to society they may seem. . . You and I didn't design people.
God designed people.
What I am trying to do is to discover why God included humans in Universe.
All of humanity is in peril of extinction if each one of us does not dare, now and henceforth, always to tell only the truth, and all the truth, and to do so promptly — right now.
I am convinced that human continuance depends entirely upon: the intuitive wisdom of each and every individual . . . the individual's integrity of speaking and acting only on the individual's own within-self-intuited and reasoned initiative . . . the individual's never joining action with others as motivated only by crowd-engendered-emotionalism, or a sense of the crowd's power to overwhelm, or in fear of holding to the course indicated by one's own intellectual convictions.
The nearest each of us can come to God is by loving the truth.
It is the integrity of each individual human that is in final examination. On personal integrity hangs humanity's fate.
You can decieve others, you can decieve your brain-self, but you can't decieve your mind-self — for mind deals only in the discovery of truth and the interrelationship of all truths. The cosmic laws with which mind deals are noncorruptible.
Cosmic evolution is omniscient God comprehensively articulate.
Humans have always unknowingly affected all Universe by every act and thought they articulate or even consider. . . . Realistic, comprehensively responsible, omni-system-considerate, unselfish thinking on the part of humans does absolutely affect human destiny.
There are no solids. There are no things.
There are only interfering and noninterfering patterns operative in pure principle, and principles are eternal. Principles never contradict principles. . . . The synergetic integral of the totality of principles is God, whose sum-total behavior in pure principle is beyond our comprehension and is utterly mysterious to us, because as humans — in pure principle — we do not and never will know all the principles.
Love is metaphysical gravity.
April 21, 2008 11:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 23:33
Now, there's a worthy question, Daniel.
For one thing, consider that it's a bias of *Abrahamic beliefs* to believe that the entire point of religion is belief.
It is also language. And it's hard to live among people without being able to communicate. Certainly, diversity is an important thing for modern humans to embrace, but a lot of creedal religions need to see beyond the notion that everyone else in the world is just a conversion target, and have the humanizing experience of connecting with each other, and, hopefully, accomplishing something with each other.
The notion is frightening, if one clings to a belief that only one's own belief is acceptable in a human, but that's because human experience *can* build bridges and make things better. The world has no more time for notions of 'winner takes all' in belief terms. We all must treat each other with honor and respect and get to work.
A religion is a *language,* as well as just some belief to argue about. That's the key element, here. We all need to *communicate.*
April 21, 2008 11:20 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 23:20
Hello Paganplace,
Religion is about belief, or, more precisely, a set of beliefs. Certainly these beliefs aren't the only thing that can be discussed between different faiths, but if they're not going to be the focus of the discussion, then why do we need an 'interfaith' dialog at all? Why not just stress tolerance and acceptance between individuals?
April 21, 2008 10:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 22:59
" Amy:
"Let's see him meet with atheists if he's so keen on understanding. A mutual love of fairy tales is hardly worth bonding over."
Gotta say, Amy: most atheists that get in religious debates are no bargain on the human understanding front, either.
April 21, 2008 10:43 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 22:43
Great, now someone's decided to cut and paste the whole Bible or something. That'll help. *shaking head.*
April 21, 2008 10:30 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 22:30
Let's see him meet with atheists if he's so keen on understanding. A mutual love of fairy tales is hardly worth bonding over.
April 21, 2008 7:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 19:39
Asim, Asim, Asim,
Still suffering I see from the Three B syndrome i.e. Bred, Born and Brainwashed in Islam.
Once again the reality of it all can be summarized in one short statement:
Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing/"propheteering" scribal biographers who not only added "angels" aka "pretty wingie thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
April 21, 2008 6:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 18:35
Moyshe,U said:"Which came first the Torah or the Quran?!" What is your point? U don't get any credit because the Torah came earlier-God sent it and not U.
But the Torah we have today is hardly the one revealed to Moses-it has been doctored and hardly resumbles the original-the same applies to the new testamant.
Only the Quran has come down to us intact and authentic as originally revealed to the Prophet Muhammad-which recognises Moses and JEsus as true Prophets of God as it does regarding Abraham,Noah and Lot.
April 21, 2008 6:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 18:18
Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,
Hmmm, the pope is mired in the stench and muck of pedophilic priests and in the errors of a flawed religion. He did not have time to meet with Muslims to discuss the stench, muck and flaws of Islam but we do.
Once again for your perusal and commentary, the stench, muck and flaws of Islam:
1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".
2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.
3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. And Shiites think the same way about Sunnis with the resultant 24/7 blood bath in Iraq.
4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Male Islamics to include imams and clerics having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.
April 21, 2008 6:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 18:09
My, that was poor editing of me.
"Who's Ultimately Right, If That's Important To You," ...isn't the only thing that can be discussed between faiths, and isn't the only reason for there to be contact and interaction *beyond* such claims and assertions and the ensuing fights.
April 21, 2008 5:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 17:50
Which came first the Torah or the Quran?!
April 21, 2008 5:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 17:49
Well, DAN78:
"That's the thing, isn't it? Either something is true, or it's not."
Either thinking that such claims are the only thing of relevance between the world's many faiths, just because it's important to *you*... Or it's not.
April 21, 2008 5:00 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 17:00
That's the thing, isn't it? Either something is true, or it's not. Either Jesus was the son of God (as Christians claim), a mere man who was a prophet (as Muslims claim), or a heretic of no particular ontological import (as Jews claim). These can't ALL be true. Muslims revere Muhammad as a prophet, Christians and Jews do not. Christians think that their God is OK with them eating pork, Muslims and Jews think pork is anathema. Jews and Christians can drink alcohol, Muslims cannot.
Just between these "Abrahamic" religions, we can see many irreconcilable differences. When one compares the "Abrahamic" faiths to the "Dharmic" faiths of the Indian subcontinent or the "Taoic" faiths of East Asia, even more profound differences are seen. Perhaps because of this, there is scant interfaith dialog between these groups. Buddhists do not even acknowledge a God exists, or consider the question of his existence meaningless or irrelevant. Hindus acknowledge many gods (even if merely as different aspects of one supreme God).
What type of "dialog" can exist between faiths that consider themselves to be the Alpha and the Omega of truth and any other? Very little if theology is what is being discussed. Perhaps interfaith tolerance can be stressed.
April 21, 2008 4:22 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 16:22
Tell you what, Mr. Patel,
Throw a couple of Wiccans, Druids, or other Pagans, or even atheists/agnostic/humanists in to the discussions as well and you've got my backing, 100%. Can't really say I would expect the Pope to do so, what with the history and all, but hey- a girl can dream.
What do you say? :)
April 21, 2008 3:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 15:26
im in new york, and the tv here was all pope all the time-
i watched quite a bit of it- or kept it on in the background while i work during the day (i work from my home)
the newspapers also- all pope all the time- every front page splattered with the same pics-
i didn't see any contact with muslims except for the day he arrived he received 100 representatives from 100 different religions and there was a muslim in there-
(and i thought, i didnt even kNOW that there ARE 100 religions in new york! live and learn-
when i was at a convenience store there was a (newspaper) photo of the pope with a rabbi and it said "SHALOM!" and i said to the clerk (who i know to be a muslim) isn't that a beautiful thing? i had a lump in my throat for real- and he looked at me like i was nuts, and i said, "yes, its definitely a beautiful thing to see" and he gave me a sheepish smile as if he may have never thought of that before- but didnt disagree-
who could possibly disagree with inclusion and celebration of the plurality aound us?
it would have been a striking message if the pope had concentrated more on different faiths- but he was pretty busy here-
maybe his visit here got him thinking ore about it-
April 21, 2008 3:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 15:09
This is not exactly new, just unnoticed.
Baha'u'llah, the founder of the Baha'i Faith, presented a coherent and convincing model for understanding and appreciating all of the world's religions and faith traditions in 1862, and even wrote to the Pope offering a way forward. It is good that, after only 146 years, the Pope is beginning to catch up.
April 21, 2008 1:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 13:47
"Hmmm, the only interfaith from a reality standpoint are the analogous flaws and errors in said "faiths"."
How bout living in the same world? How's that for 'reality?'
April 21, 2008 1:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 13:47
Hmmm, the only interfaith from a reality standpoint are the analogous flaws and errors in said "faiths".
Once again for those who have not seen them, a synopsis of the flaws and errors in contemporary religions:
1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.
1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.
simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm
2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.
The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html
For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".
3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).
4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" aka "pretty flying wingie thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.
And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.
5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."
6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"
Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.
Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.
April 21, 2008 11:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on April 21, 2008 11:59