Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

Were you ever diagnosed with schizophrenia or EXCESSIVE, COMPULSIVE, PERSONALITY DISORDER?

Rebuttal, Rebuttal, Rebuttal,

Maybe one of your Islamic scholars can put the following to poetry:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/ hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Halozcel:

Here is another extraction from Fetullah Gullen's article about Rumi and tolerance in Islam:

1. The need for a modern spirituality

Among the medieval mystical poets, the one who speaks most clearly and directly to the modern world is Jalaluddin Rumi, known simply in the Muslim world as "Mevlana," Our Master. The depth of his spiritual experience, his original and arresting poetic images, his obvious sincerity and openheartedness, and his ability to transcend cultures, time periods, and religions, all go together to make Mevlana one of the most accessible and influential of Muslim thinkers who speak to us from the past.

The number of internet webpages devoted to translations of Rumi's poetry into European languages is evidence of the extent to which Mevlana is known and loved in the West, but in the Muslim world, the influence of Mevlana on modern thinkers and scholars, as upon the ordinary Muslim worshiper, must not be underestimated. While those who can read and appreciate his poetry in the original Persian may be relatively few, Mevlana's works are known through poetry recitations, classical performances of their musical settings, and through the many translations of his poetry into Turkish, Arabic, Urdu and other Muslim languages. I have seen verses of Rumi decorating dishes, wood panels, horse carts and their modern equivalent, minibuses. The dervishes of the Mevlevi tariqa communicate, through their solemn whirling prayer, a non-verbal way message of Rumi's experience of tolerance, peace, and deep absorption in the Divine.

One of the modern Muslims who have appropriated Rumi's attitudes and integrated them into their own understanding of Islamic faith and practice is the Turkish scholar and religious leader, Muhammad Fethullah Gülen. The correspondence of Mevlana to Gülen is that of kindred spirits who, across the centuries, share an interpretation of the Qur'anic message as well as a commitment to communicate that message effectively to people of their respective ages. In his sermons and written works, Gülen frequently cites Rumi's behavior and attitudes to illustrate his message; in the book Toward a Global Civilization of Love and Tolerance, Gülen cites Rumi over 15 times to exemplify his themes of civilizational dialogue. In his work on the Key Concepts in the Practice of Sufism, Gülen cites Mevlana more often than any other saint or spiritual writer as he seeks to initiate the seeker into the mysteries of God's love.

What does Mevlana mean for Fethullah Gülen? Where does he see the affinity between his own understanding of Islam and that expounded and exemplified by Rumi? What are the lessons that can be learned from Rumi? Why does Gülen consider Rumi a worthy exemplar for the modern Muslim? I believe that the answers to these questions can be found in four areas.

Halozcel:

Here is the abstract on Fetullah Gullen's "Following the Footseteps of Rumi" on the Internet only that portion that deals with tolerance:

2. 1. Rumi as the model of tolerance and dialogue

In discussing Said Nursi's proposal to undertake dialogue and cooperation with true Christians, Gülen states that in this Nursi is acting in a similar manner to Rumi who described himself as a compass, with one foot fixed firmly in the center while the other turns in a broad arc to complete a full circle. The foot planted resolutely in the center which never changes position is the faith conviction by which one is united to God as the unmoving heart and center of one's existence, while the other foot moves in a "broad circle that embraces all believers."[301]

Gülen endorses Nursi's view that the days of the use of force are over; today's methods of persuasion are those of dialogue, scientific argumentation and rational debate. The "jihad of the word" focuses on rationally convincing others of the truth of one's position, not on imposing one's views by force. For Gülen, this mode of discussion is the only manner of confrontation which fits properly the nature of Islam:

The truth is that there is no harshness or bigotry in Islam. It is a religion made up entirely of forgiveness and tolerance. Such pillars of love and tolerance like Rumi, Yunus Emre[302 ], Ahmed Yesevi[303], Bediüzzaman [Said Nursi][304] and similar figures have expressed this aspect of Islam most beautifully and they have gone down in history as examples of this affection and tolerance. [305]

Hallozcel: Here is the response to your claim of incongruence betwee Islam and Human Rights:

Quotations:
1-- "As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power...." Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,Q92, art. 1, Reply Obj. 1
2--- "And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die"
3--- "And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her." Ecclesiastes 7:26, from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament)

By the way, have you read Rumi and his ideas of tolerance and Human Rights?

Pluralism ought to be based on Contemporary Values and Human Rights.

Islam is not compatible with Human Rights,Democracy and Present Age Life,that is the problem which should be faced and met.
The problem is not matter of Pluralism,Dialogue or Tolerance.

1-Islam(submission) rejects Human Rights.The Book is very clear 33.36.Islam refuses Man-Woman,children Equality and rights of non-muslims.

2-Islam rejects Democracy,because there is no dissident tradition in islam.Non-muslims and women are second class citizens.

3-Islam rejects the Contemporary Values.Islam prohibits the mixed gender order.Sisters-Brothers segregation is the islamic deal.Islam fears from women hairs.Islam doesnt permit a glass of wine.

Islam has not capability to create the Civilization(golden age of muslim Spain was a myth,palaver),on the contrary,islam had dried the civilizations in Egypt,Iran,Mesopotamia and Syria etc.

The Civilization has to be protected and Pluralism should be based on Twentyfirst Century.

Paganplace, you said,

"I'd be willing to bet Dr. King never heard of a living Pagan.
But I'd also be willing to bet the rent money he wouldn't be afraid of one.
And this is a treasure of a legacy, indeed.

And there, my friend, you have found some of the pure beaten gold of MLK's beautiful message.

His dream goes marching on.

Arminius

And, for a little perspctive on the *topic,* here... so much conflict in the world comes of people of good faith *dismissing* our common humanity...the real places where folks of *very different worldviews are actually really great at interacting productively*

And choosing instead to teach some kind of existential and inborn hostility, then live life as if everyone actually spends their time reciprocating.

I'd be willing to bet Dr. King never heard of a living Pagan.

But I'd also be willing to bet the rent money he wouldn't be afraid of one.

And this is a treasure of a legacy, indeed.

You know, About, sandwiching an uncapitalized 'Pagan' amid 'Satanists' and 'cults' and the like isn't exactly friendly, especially if you're capitalizing Witch or Witchcraft: a lot of people try to create certain false associations every chance they get.

'Pagan,' in the sense of things associated with modern living people, at least, is used as a *proper name,* just like everyone else. Some use it in the sense more like vague terms like 'monotheist' but it's really polite to capitalize, particularly in forums like this, where every other faith group gets the consideration, and a lot of people try to claim Paganism isn't a 'real' religion, deserving civil rights and all the rest.

"Witchcraft" is much more rarely used as a proper name, actually, unless someone's referring to themselves as a Witch and referring to their body of practice in *that* way.

The names do get a little confusing: (Certainly there are a few young Satanists out there who like to call themselves Witches, and claim that Wiccans and Pagans in general are supposed to be basically the same as them, generally in the course of scoffing at even our most broadly-defined common values and beliefs, and wondering where the 'serious occultists' are, telling all manner of curious folks how, yes, Satanists are Pagans and they're gonna learn dark powers real soon by glowering darkly about the Book of Enoch, ... then wondering why they don't feel 'included.' :) )

Most Pagans see Satanists, charitably, as folks off doing their own thing with Biblical characters and the like.

In terms of interfaith discussion, though, the to-some-obligatory associations between Paganism and various forms of Satanism, are really pointless and often pretty offensive.

They're also often a tool for fearmongering against the Pagan people at large, (Among the Religious Right, there's been a pretty well-organized and funded smear campaign for decades) and to trivialize our current civil rights struggles.

Not to say 'Go bash the Satanists:' I believe in religious freedom, period, but: ...they're a mixed bag between rebellious teens doing it for shock effect, and, ...rebellious intellectuals doing it for shock effect, mostly. And associating them with the Pagan people is disingenuous, considering all the people, Satanists included, who use that name for inflammatory purposes.

As a Wiccan, I've often questioned the wisdom of running around calling yourself a Witch in a public sense. Satanists, though, always *utterly amaze me* when they seem surprised they have PR issues.

The salient point here is, it's a real pet peeve for a lot of Pagans to have our religion and our people sandwiched between words like 'Cult' and 'Satanist.'

When some Christian kids are having all manner of problems and decide to attack the local church in some way, the local Pagans are more likely to be *blamed* according to some conspiracy theory than consulted. Which is a pity, since though it's not a given, we do have a lot of 'occult expertise' among us.

(Gods know how many of these things I've had to look into. The banal truth of it is that most 'Occult Conspiracy' worth even half the name is just an elaborate front about some dude trying to get laid, and most 'Satanic Ritual (anything)' is about abused people, usually kids, (or the severely-mentally-ill) trying to hit back somehow, with the perpetrators choosing their symbology from the same places Fundamenalist fear and smear campaigns get cooked up. After all, what better way to freak someone out than use what they *tell* everyone to be freaked out about? Then there's of course the severely mentally-ill fixing on the 'witch-hunt' narrative for attention and a sense they're dealing with something... but I digress. )

*Humanism,* I would hope, is about recognizing *humanity,* not our fears.

Fears are used to turn human beings into abstract 'enemies,' ...and I think that shows when people are more willing to accept elaborate and unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about organized Satanism or 'Witchcraft' than, say, recognize another faith-group.

CCNL, America and Israel need a Martin Luther King to save the humanity from world war3

Chris Everett:

In the religious arena, many words have a number of different meanings. Some examples are: Christian, cults, Humanist, pagan, Satanist, Witch and Witchcraft. The terms Humanism and Humanist are essentially meaningless when used by themselves; their meanings only become clear when preceded by an adjective, as in:
1- Christian Humanism: a philosophy based on Christian beliefs about the nature of God, and which advocate people's fulfillment by personal effort.
2- Cultural Humanism: A concept that knowledge can be obtained through rational thought and experimentation. It has its roots in ancient Greece and Rome. It developed into the scientific method and is the major underpinning of all sciences today.
3- Literary Humanism: pursuit of the humanities (languages, literature, philosophy, history, etc.)
4- Modern Humanism: a generic term encompassing both Religious and Secular Humanism.
bullet Philosophical Humanism is a philosophy centered upon the needs and interests of people.
bullet Renaissance Humanism: A movement starting at the end of the Middle Ages which renewed an interest in classical studies and promoted the concept that truth could be discovered by human effort.
5- Religious Humanism is similar to secular humanism, except that it is practiced in a religious setting with fellowship and rituals, as in Ethical Culture Societies, congregations associated with the Society for Humanistic Judaism and groups affiliated with the Unitarian Universalist Association.
6- Secular Humanism a non-religiously based philosophy promoting humanity as the measure of equality.

With the assassination of MLK, we will never know if he would have come to grips with the flaws and errors of Christianity. Considering his intelligence, one would assume he would.

I can almost hear that speech now.

"After careful review my fellow Christians, it is apparent to my mind and soul that we have been fed significant mumbo-jumbo with respect to the life of Jesus.

Brothers and Sisters stop and read about the real Jesus. Develop a new view!!! Jesus was a simple, illiterate preacher man. The Beatitudes are pure Jesus. His giving to Caesar what was Caesar's is pure Jesus. The rest was embellishment upon embellishment of the life of said simple preacher man!!! The "miracles" were added to compete with the local "voodooers of the hoodoo", the resurrection was added to compete with Roman and Greek gods and the "pretty wingie thingies" and "demons of the demented added to continue the fear and superstitions of the ancients!!!!!"

" Chris Everett:

"So I guess Dr. King's message was that religion isn't substantive compared to the fact that we're all just human, just as race isn't substantive. I guess his dream was that his four little children would one day live in a nation where they would not be judged by the color of their skin, or by their religion, or even by their lack of religion, but by the content of their character.

Sounds like humanism to me."

Well, I have no problems, there, ...but I don't think Dr. King was putting religion and humanism in *conflict,* that way, ...so much as challenging people of all beliefs to do at least as *well* as that 'humanism,' shall we say.

I think the increasing polarization of religious dialogue in this country, and the world, ...setting religion *against* reason and humanism and pluralism, is one of the chief threats to the wonderful gains in civil rights and good race relations that the country has seen just in my lifetime.

Religion can be a powerful supporter of the obvious good represented by 'humanistic' values, or it can oppose and obscure them. Maybe at times it can even challenge us to go one better than we thought we could. That's a choice.

What Islam needs is a Martin Luther King to start the process of ending the 800 year blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites!!!!! With the current state of Islamic violence, unfortunately the Islamic Martin Luther King's assassination is guaranteed.

Re: Who should claim the Reverend?

Those who believe in Equality, Fraternity and Justice.

So I guess Dr. King's message was that religion isn't substantive compared to the fact that we're all just human, just as race isn't substantive. I guess his dream was that his four little children would one day live in a nation where they would not be judged by the color of their skin, or by their religion, or even by their lack of religion, but by the content of their character.

Sounds like humanism to me.