All Comments (89)

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Anon -

Jonah Goldberg ain't no liberal and that'a a fact. As for the Darwin fish, I'd much rather see a recumbant human outline with DARWIN smack in the middle. Let the Christians have the Jesus fish - the Age of Aquarious needs Darwin.

Check your astrology book....Pisces is in retrograde and Aquarious is upon us. Loaves, fishes, walking on water, and miracles in the desert are all so yesterday. Get with the program!! The Age of Reason is upon us. Give science a chance.

Secular Humanism = the Age of Aquarious.

"It was an attempted suicide. Pyotr put his head on a tree stump and started hitting his head with a log."

Sounds like most apocalyptic beliefs to *me.*

It is obvious from the 800 year blood feud between Shiites and Sunnis that there is no diversity allowed in Islam.

The major flaw in your personality is schizophrenia, sitting on your computer at 3:00 A.M. to post a parroting sentence or two.

I beleive that Religion is divisive. I also beleive the belief in a God, an entity that you beseach, is asinine. I beleive beleif itself, in the supernatural is downright stupid. Anyone who beleives in God is weakminded and perpetuates a vicious stupidty that has wreaked havoc upon mankind. It's time for rational sane people, people who understand anthropology, who have read Joseph Campbell, etc. to no longer sit idly by as the idea of God is floated. This massive ignorance must be shown to be what it is. Complete nonsense. Enough is enopugh. The sane amongst us will no longer tolerate beibg held hostage by crakckpots like you, the author of this idiotic "Religion" column. Grow up punk!

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Anti-CCNL,

The first four major flaws and errors of Islam (632-2008 CE): (to be repeated five times a day for the next millennium and "many a millennium" after that):

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. And Shiites think the same way about Sunnis.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

CCNL wrote:

" Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

anti-cnnl,

Thumping of the koran and bible have been going on for many a millenium. To cure this requires therefore thumping of the truth for the same many a millenium. Get used to it!!!!"
**************************************

Response:

I think you are a shallow person who is only semi-literate and therefore has no capacity for a civil dialog. All you can do is repeat like a parrot or you suffer from EXCESSIVE, COMPULSIVE, Personality DISORDER.

By the way the plural of millenium is millenia.

Note how Eboo never, never comments about the the flaws of Islam.

If he ever does, maybe some of the violent Sunni-Shiite diversity in Islam will disappear. Until then,

"Until the koran is deflawed, no one is safe!!!"

Know why really CCNL?

It's because the Ikhwan/Muslim mafia (and yes they do exist and are all too real) of which he is a part would threaten, bully and harash him for telling the truth about Islam. Eboo is just like girly-Pres of lobby, just to look pretty, say sweet things and whitewash the truth.

If he told the truth, his life would be endangered.

anti-cnnl,

Thumping of the koran and bible have been going on for many a millenium. To cure this requires therefore thumping of the truth for the same many a millenium. Get used to it!!!!

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

Notice CCNL has learned parroting the same words and like a parrot repeats it again and again.

That is why some people wonder if he suffers from EXCESSIVE, COMPULSIVE, PERSONALITY DISORDER.

Note how Eboo never, never comments about the the flaws of Islam.

If he ever does, maybe some of the violent Sunni-Shiite diversity in Islam will disappear. Until then,

"Until the koran is deflawed, no one is safe!!!"

Hi, JJ. All that barely-understood physics, divine revelation, and still with the sexuality issues?

You may note I'm the only one who occasionally talks to you, at this point.

What will you have if I go away? :)

DOES IT MATTER:

Why do you insist to express your prejudice through your ignorance? For the sake of argument (I don't mean to demean any religion), consider the following facts:

(1) The poorest country of the world and the Western hemisphere is a Christian country--Haiti.

(2) The Philippines is a Christian country of Asia and among some of the poorest in the world.

(3) The Christian Latin America is far less developed and has a lower standard of living than Dubai, S. Arabia, Kuwait, Malaysia and Indonesia.

Think about your destructive thought. You are just an ignorant brat.

Anonymous.

I don't put 'Darwin fish' on anything, but this does not compare to defaming whole world cultures: it engages the idea that Christians can claim dominance in spite of evidence, even over people's education and in spite of all evidence.

Call it a 'transitional form.'

You speak as though certain political Christians' dogmatic claims they should get their way 'because I said so with my Bible' don't *actually hurt a lot of real people.

You speak as though those Jesus fish don't get a bit *intimidating* if you happen to be someone Christian dogma would rather claim is 'evil' than treat as a human being.

You speak as though a lot of the things certain Christians say about others in the world *aren't* heard on the lips of those who do violence and oppression to others.

I can tell you that from too many personal experiences.

You say:

"It's not that secular progressives support Muslim religious fanatics, but they reserve their passion and scorn for religious Christians who are neither fanatical nor inclined to use violence."

Cause you're the ones closer to home, and affect our lives, now, even if you point elsewhere and say 'That's worse!'

That said, I'm a 'secular progressive,' and a ...pretty darn devout Pagan. (And I actually *don't* think Darwin fish would be in good taste for me, not to mention that there's enough Christian symbols in my face on a daily basis without me adding more... ...But you think I feel safe and at liberty to put a pentacle on our vehicle these days?)

No, I don't have any particular passion to scorn people far away doing what Christians have been 'inclined' to do whenever permitted to in history, themselves.

My *passion* is in keeping America as a place where neither of you get your way.

Brand names don't matter.

But you're *here.*

I'm not *scared* of Muslim Americans to the point of needing to shout them down... Cause I'm more interested in fairness and civility and respect *here* than elsewhere.

Cause if we don't have it *here,* we got no ground to stand on demanding better of others.

Evolution of religious bigotry
Jonah Goldberg

April 1, 2008

Ijust watched "Fitna," a 17-minute film by Geert Wilders, head of the Dutch Freedom Party, which takes a hard-line stance against Muslim immigration.

Released on the Internet on Thursday, "Fitna" juxtaposes verses from the Koran with images and speeches from the world of jihad. Heads cut off, bodies blown apart, gays executed, toddlers taught to denounce Jews as "apes and pigs," imams calling for global domination, protesters holding up signs reading "God Bless Hitler" and "Freedom go to Hell" -- these are just some of the powerful images from "Fitna," an Arabic word that means "ordeal."

Predictably, various Muslim governments have condemned the film. Half the Jordanian parliament voted to sever ties with the Netherlands. Egypt's grand imam threatened "severe" consequences if the Dutch government didn't ban the film.

Meanwhile, European and U.N. leaders are going through the usual motions of theatrical hand-wringing, heaping all of their anger on Wilders for sowing "hatred."

Me? I keep thinking about Jesus fish.

During a 1991 visit to Istanbul, a buddy and I found ourselves in a small restaurant drinking, dancing and singing with a bunch of middle-class Turkish businessmen, mostly shop owners. It was a hilariously joyful evening, even though they spoke nearly no English and we spoke considerably less Turkish.

At the end of the night, after imbibing unquantifiable quantities of raki, an ouzo-like Turkish liquor, one of the men came up to me and gave me a worn-out business card. On the back, he'd scribbled an image. It was little more than a curlicue, but he seemed intent on showing it to me (and nobody else). It was, I realized, a Jesus fish.

It was an eye-opening moment for me, though obviously trivial compared with the experiences of others. Here in this cosmopolitan and self-styled European city, this fellow felt the need to surreptitiously clue me in that he was a Christian just like me (or so he thought).

Traditionally, the fish pictogram conjures the miracle of the loaves and fishes as well as the Greek word IXOYE, which not only means fish but serves as an acronym, in Greek, for "Jesus Christ the Son of God [Is] Savior." Christians persecuted by the Romans used to draw the Jesus fish in the dirt with a stick or a finger as a way to tip off fellow Christians that they weren't alone.

In America, the easiest place to find this ancient symbol is on the back of cars. Recently, however, it seems as if Jesus fish have become outnumbered by Darwin fish. No doubt you've seen these too. The fish symbol is "updated" with little feet coming off the bottom, and "IXOYE" or "Jesus" is replaced with either "Darwin" or "Evolve."

I find Darwin fish offensive. First, there's the smugness. The undeniable message: Those Jesus fish people are less evolved, less sophisticated than we Darwin fishers.

The hypocrisy is even more glaring. Darwin fish are often stuck next to bumper stickers promoting tolerance or admonishing random motorists that "hate is not a family value." But the whole point of the Darwin fish is intolerance; similar mockery of a cherished symbol would rightly be condemned as bigoted if aimed at blacks or women or, yes, Muslims.

As Christopher Caldwell once observed in the Weekly Standard, Darwin fish flout the agreed-on etiquette of identity politics. "Namely: It's acceptable to assert identity and abhorrent to attack it. A plaque with 'Shalom' written inside a Star of David would hardly attract notice; a plaque with 'Usury' written inside the same symbol would be an outrage."

But the most annoying aspect of the Darwin fish is the false bravado it represents. It's a courageous pose without consequence. Like so much other Christian-baiting in American popular culture, sporting your Darwin fish is a way to speak truth to power on the cheap.

Whatever the faults of "Fitna," it ain't no Darwin fish.

Geert Wilders' film could very, very easily get him killed. (He's already guarded around the clock.) It essentially picks up the work of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who was murdered in 2004 by a jihadi for criticizing Islam.

"Fitna" is certainly provocative, yet it has good reason to provoke. A cancer of violence, bigotry and cruelty is metastasizing within the Islamic world.

It's fine for Muslim moderates to say they aren't part of the cancer; and that some have, in response to the film, is a positive sign. But more often, diagnosing or even observing this cancer -- in film, book or cartoon -- is dubbed "intolerant" while calls for violence, censorship and even murder are treated as understandable, if regrettable, expressions of well-deserved anger.

It's not that secular progressives support Muslim religious fanatics, but they reserve their passion and scorn for religious Christians who are neither fanatical nor inclined to use violence.

The Darwin fish ostensibly symbolizes the superiority of progressive-minded science over backward-looking faith. I think this is a false juxtaposition, but I would have a lot more respect for the folks who believe it if they aimed their brave contempt for religion at those who might behead them for it.

jgoldberg@latimescolumnists.com

" Steve:

Hey Pagan Place - I see your point, but the trust and openness that you advocate is just what Eboo & his ISNA pals exploit."

We have to be strong in our openness and ideals of freedom, Steve.

Fear and ignorance are much *easier* to exploit.

Alienating people from the America we love does not help.

Here's another example of Islam's beautiful diversity

Today's news: 04/01/08

A report posted on Islam Watch, a site run by Muslims who oppose intolerant teachings and hatred for unbelievers, exposes a prominent Islamic cleric and lawyer who support extreme punishment for non-Muslims — including killing and rape.

A question-and-answer session with Imam Abdul Makin in an East London mosque asks why Allah would tell Muslims to kill and rape innocent non-Muslims, including their wives and daughters, according to Islam Watch.

"Because non-Muslims are never innocent, they are guilty of denying Allah and his prophet," the Imam says, according to the report. "If you don't believe me, here is the legal authority, the top Muslim lawyer of Britain."

The lawyer, Anjem Choudary, backs up the Imam's position, saying that all Muslims are innocent.

Click here to watch the interview with Islamic lawyer Anjem Choudary.

"You are innocent if you are a Muslim," Choudary tells the BBC. "Then you are innocent in the eyes of God. If you are not a Muslim, then you are guilty of not believing in God."

Choudary said he would not condemn a Muslim for any action.

"As a Muslim, I must support my Muslim brothers and sisters," Choudary said. "I must have hatred to everything that is not Muslim."

Pagan Place wrote:

I'm not comfortable with what some of the Koran says can or should be done to me than I am with similar passages in the Bible others want to rule me with.

I know you'd rather Muslim Americans went away or something, ...but the fact is they're here, among many other groups with many different beliefs and appearances and ways, and the *real* issue is what Mr. Patel is generally trying to address: How do we understand and *get along* with each other?

And that's a whole lot more productive than all this shouting and recrimination and trying to 'prove' someone must be bad people cause you'd rather think it's that simple than actually deal with them.

From Steve:

I like the way you think Pagan Place. You're a person who seeks realistic solutions. Yet the "Brotherhood" groups are going to try everyway they can to EXPLOIT our liberties. That is what they do, the record shows.

So let's be practical. How should we deal with the Muslims here, many of whom are honorable and not a part of the treacherous Wahhabi lobby and their many affiliates.

Well, I propose:

1) Outlawing the Egyptian Brotherhood as so wisely done in Egypt, along with all other known radical groups that support terrorism, actively or financially.

2) Removing the tax-exempt status on all religious property and activity. Bring their shady financial dealings under the auspices of the IRS.

3) Religious schools must comply with federal laws and have open financial books. The latest is Muslims funneling money to Hamas and Hizbillah through Islamic schools. It seems that they have no ethical problem with exploiting children and their educational system. Oh yes, the corrupt lobby has a financial overlord and many schools under its umbrella.

4) Groups like MAS and MSA must not be permitted to sponsor speaking engagements where their key criminal thugs inspire others to be criminal thugs. One of their key speakers is a co-conspirator to the World Trade Center bombing. This is the kind of inspiring leader the "Brotherhood" present as an Islamic example to their youth.

Radical groups spawned from Saudi funding like MSA should not be permitted on any campus.

Now this means ofcourse that ALL religious groups must forego the same rights.

You see, when we are dealing with those who exploit our freedoms, we are the ones who lose too as we must restrict our own freedoms to keep their treachery in check.

It is sad. These are not spiritual people or even religious people but societal parasites who cause us all grief.

Now, I hear cries of Islamophobia from the galley. Well why then if the problem is not caused by Muslims themselves, why do we live so harmoniously with our Hindu and Sikh neighbors.

The answer: Because they are not exploiters who have come to destroy our system and replace it with theirs.

The other religious groups act honorably and comply with the "Live and let live" policy that makes pluralism viable.

But Pagan Place, if you've got any solutions, I'm listening.

Hey Pagan Place - I see your point, but the trust and openness that you advocate is just what Eboo & his ISNA pals exploit.

He and they are counting on your American liberalism to play you for a fool and advocate slipping in, little by little, special rights for Muslims, like special family courts and prayer areas in public buildings like airports and bus terminals. But that's the small stuff - what they really want is to make the US Constitution a meaningless addendum to Shariah law. The goals of Eboo's pals are ripe with treason. And his "face of Islam" President of the corrupt Egyptian Brotherhood. That dear, sweet girl is there to lie to you and make Islam look so pretty and harmless.

I admire your open ways, but be wise, not somebody's fool.

Did you not hear the latest from Gaza TV for little muslims. A child stabbing Bush and putting a mosque where whitehouse used to be.

Believe me, there are times I've felt like taking a stab at the politicians myself, but I would never advocate hate and violence and brainwashing a child as Muslims do. A child is too young to discern a metaphorical stabbing from a hatefilled and bloody act of violence.

These people lie and teach hate. That is uncivilized, therefore they should be restricted from civilized societies.

PaganPlace,

I stand by my statement:

"You have been drinking too much of the "voodoo juice" of Islam if you think the Muslim message is one of peaceful coexistence. "

The "To the point" History of Islam:

Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

The recent agenda:

The assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

The money behind the agenda:

The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Do I have to repeat and emphasize that, Concerned?

He's an American man. With some ideas on diversity issues. That we could talk about.

Not the entire Muslim world, history, or the embodiment of any particular reading of the Koran.

I didn't say I did, Concerned. You know darn well I've no particular use for Muslim religion, but this is an American man who's speaking. Your constant braying that everything else in the world but your apparently-compulsive insults need to be 'deflawed,' however, you could go do alone and let the big kids talk about something productive.

Gods.

Paganplace,

You have been drinking too much of the "voodoo juice" of Islam if you think the Muslim message is one of peaceful coexistence.

Keep in mind the following famous quote and you will not need any more guidance:

"Until the koran is deflawed, no one is safe!!!!"

There are different kinds of diversity.

Diversity of skin color, ethnic and national origins, religion, culture, financial status - these are facts of life that don't have to be detrimental to social well-being.

Diversity of behavior, values, and interests can cause distrust and alienation. Language diversity is foremost among the differences that can cause problems, because it literally makes understanding of behavior, values, and interests among people of diverse backgrounds more difficult.

When we all can communicate adequately, we can begin the process of becoming comfortable and trusting in those other areas. And that's largely up to the newcomers. Or else those who are here, including previous newcomers, will have to spend most of our remaining time learning new languages.

Eboo,

As always, you give an interesting analysis of contemporary pluralism.

As a mathematician, the issues you're describing with respect to Putnam et al. remind me of something called a "negative feedback loop." My impression here is that diversity isn't so much a cause of decreased social capital as it is a factor that can accelerate social capital that's already on the wane. If people are less connected to each other, then differences in race and religion can increase the disconnectedness, even if they might contribute positively in a more connected world.

"Curious as to why you do not post original comments rather than ragging on what everybody posts?"

*laugh* Actually, I often do. See somewhere below. It's just hard to hear it when these topics turn into the same old "Muslim-bashing" threads.

I'm not comfortable with what some of the Koran says can or should be done to me than I am with similar passages in the Bible others want to rule me with.

I know you'd rather Muslim Americans went away or something, ...but the fact is they're here, among many other groups with many different beliefs and appearances and ways, and the *real* issue is what Mr. Patel is generally trying to address: How do we understand and *get along* with each other?

And that's a whole lot more productive than all this shouting and recrimination and trying to 'prove' someone must be bad people cause you'd rather think it's that simple than actually deal with them.

world delusionism.

the idolism who been hanging on the cross for the last 2000+years for the sin and saftey and the integration of mankind?????????????????.

the newly discoverd idolism (democracey) who also died for the sin and safety and integration of mankind????????????????????????????????.

both delusionism proved failure ,just look at the world status quo ,those who are leading the world right now are those who they embrace the above delusionism .

Arif:

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I am not afraid to die for my faith, is what I mean, though I'd also rather go out of old age. That being said, it is obvious that Islam has it's not so hidden agenda and that once they have a critical mass in enough cities around the country, the demonstrations for concessions here and there for sharia law will begin, then they will escalate into more and more militant demonstrations, then the full fledged Jihad. In the meantime, we will have let so many in that it will be difficult to close the borders to them at all.

That is why we need to take action to severely limit immigration now. The "educated" and professional Muslims are the ones who talk politically correctly and only lay the groundwork for those more radical to follow.

George In Alaska says "Having a people populate us who's religion dictates that they rule over us, or kill us if we are a Xian or Jew - means I'd be killed (which I do not fear) - but I do not want to leave my country to my family in such a state. "

When you mention not being afraid of being killed I begin to wonder, Muslims say that often. I have to admit (sheepishly) I am afraid of being killed; I am not ready to lay down my life...yet. Therefore, I make certain choices while living only to make sure I die of old age. Having said that, I feel Islam is a threat to modern civilization. Muslims lie to promote their faith, when the faith reaches a "promoted/preferred" status through Pluralism and Multiculturalism the lie will cease and the other jihad will begin. I seem to prefer the radical Muslim; at least his intentions are clear. It is the "scholar" I worry about. I would not want my children to witness such a state of affairs. It takes a generation or so for Islam to gain roots. Once that state is achieved the other Jihad begins, I do hope by now you know which Jihad I am referring to.

Anonymous:

You make several cogent points. The last few lines of your post does mention the "prejudice" and "hostile perceptions" of the west. Please answer me this: do we in the west march in the streets chanting and screaming for the death of muslims and in particular your political leaders? No, yet that is not an uncommon sermon preached frequently by your "holy" men. We pigs and dogs, jews and christians, must die according to them.

Also, how many planes have we flown into your major cities intentionally bringing down the largest buildings in a time of peace, all in the name of your religion? NEVER!!!

As for the cartoons, the Da Vinci Code was and is an afront to most christians who are committed to the Bible and I whole heartedly disagree with it's portrayal of Jesus and abhore it. I have not, however, marched violently against the author, the movie theaters, etc. nor to I know anybody who has, personally. In this country, the rights of those to show the movie were protected. Would that happen in ANY Muslim country of the Danish cartoons?

I think not.

Pagan Place:

Curious as to why you do not post original comments rather than ragging on what everybody posts? Oddly, you refer to what you have had to suffer with your "partner", but that is a choice that you have made; therefore, you bear the consequences. It is not like being born a certain color and suffering for it.

Having a people populate us who's religion dictates that they rule over us, or kill us if we are a Xian or Jew - means I'd be killed (which I do not fear) - but I do not want to leave my country to my family in such a state.

Of course we can rub elbows with the Islamic Americans, those already here; they have integrated for the most part. Their brothers overseas by the millions are waiting to come over until they have enough of a population, and that is the threat, the continued immigration of Muslims without consideration for how many we have in the US overall.

Fan, Fan, Fan,

Why are Muslims finding less employment? The answer is simple. The violence of Islam!!!

The foundation of Islam:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/ hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" aka "pretty wingie thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

Recent history:

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Bottom line:

"Until the koran is deflawed, no one is safe!!! (and Muslims will continue to carry the stain of violence).

here are some markers from UK( look at mcb.org for a detail study) Performance & Innovation Unit, Cabinet Office - Ethnic Minorities in the Labour Market (UK)

*Muslim men of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin are disproportionately unemployed compared to other Asians. Even after allowances for education and residential area, Pakistani Muslims are three times more likely to be jobless than Hindus are. Indian Muslims are twice as likely to be unemployed than Indian Hindus are.
*After adjustments for training and family circumstances, ethnic minority men earn less than white workers. For women the picture is different. Pakistani women earn £34 a week less than white women, but Indian and Caribbean women earn more - £14 and £30 respectively.

*Black and Indian pupils have achieved a significant improvement in GCSE results over the past two years. From 1998 - 2000, the percentage of African Caribbean youngsters achieving five or more A*-C grades has risen from 29 to 37, while the proportion of Indian pupils getting top grades has leapt from 54% to 62%. A group defined as "other Asian" which includes Chinese pupils, also showed impressive gains. Last year, 70% got five or more top passes, up from 61% two years ago. However, a fall in achievement among Bangladeshi pupils from 33% to 30% and a below average rise in the performance of Pakistani children means the gap between the highest and lowest achieving ethnic groups has widened.

*48% of Muslims supported faith schools within the state sector, compared to 26% of Church of England (White) respondents, & 13% Hindu respondents.

*Perinatal mortality rate amongst Pakistani mothers is 16%, twice UK average
*Respiratory symptoms amongst Muslims is higher than Hindus or Sikhs (18% compared to 14%)
Diagnosed heart disease or severe chest pain is 18% amongst Pakistanis, 14% in Sikhs, and 8% in Hindus
*Reported long-standing illness is 20% among Muslims, compared to around 16% for Hindus and Sikhs

Ananymous:
"There is yet another factor: these Asian and African migrants soon realised they are condemned to remain on margins of western society."

Wrong! Anonymous! whoever embraced education, technology and the liberal secular tradition; went ahead! Look at the Asians ( both the East and the South) even in a traditionally non-immigration based society like the UK! If you take Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslims out of the equation; they have thrived even more than even native white English!
They are generally wealthier, hold higher paying jobs, own businesses and generally well adjusted!
It is Muslims who have the Ghetto problems. Call spade a spade. Do not lump the Chinese, Koreans,Japanese, Indians all together with Muslims and device the markers!

Bev
The country is doing quite OK on Diversity. It has its pains but all in all it is one of the most diverse countries in the world. In fact I am an example of it. A non- white, non-christian immigrant.
what it is not ready for is a large minority of Muslims who want to have it both ways. Get the socital structure, freedom, infrastructure, excitement & opportunity the US provides but not embrace any of the liberal, secular, democratic traditions it expects from its inhabitants.
What the US is not ready for is the Muslim Ghetto problem that their "My religion is the complete way of life" mentality brings about. What it is not ready for is their subtle pushing of "Islamic" agenda under the guise of "Pluralism" ( Just as it is unacceptable for the Alabama judge to push ten commandments in public spaces under the guise of the claim that they are the basis for our modern law)
we are not ready for the Muslims to carve out small pockets of "dar -al-islam" in the midst of our society. Even though Ebrahim may make it sound like a "not such a bad an idea"!

"Those of us who are not David Duke, and think diversity is a positive thing, still need to take Putnam’s findings seriously."

So, Eboo, you just admitted that if someone disagrees with you, they are automatically on the level of David Duke. Way to objectively examine both sides.
By the way, why don't you admit that "diversity" is just a way of saying "anyone but white people?" That's what this is all about.

Well seems like to me, Mr. Patel, that this country is not ready to embrace diversity. Indeed, from the postings, diversity appears to rank up there with the concept of original sin - or at least with flag-burning. Amazing the degree of intolerance that has bubbled to the American surface since 9/11

Anon, Anon, Anon wherever you are,

The Gulf War was fought to free Islamic Kuwait from the warmongering Saddam Hussein.

From Wikipedia:

"The Gulf War or Persian Gulf War (2 August 1990 – 28 February 1991)[8][9] was a conflict between Iraq and a coalition force from 34 nations[10] authorized by the United Nations (UN) and led primarily by the United States in order to return Kuwait to the control of the Emir of Kuwait."

No invasion, no war, no deaths, no corrupt Oil for Food program, and the normal infant mortality rate!!!

Anon, Anon, Anon,

The West as you call us has always be wary of Islam's intentions because of the foundations of Islam. History has shown that our concern is and was justified.

The foundation of Islam:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/ hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" aka "pretty wingie thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

Recent history:

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

The fact is that for Western world pluralism is a very new phenomenon and they are finding it very hard to digest it. Their democracy has been monolingual, mono-religious and mono-cultural.

As far as political democracy is concerned it is well established but freedom of opinion and differences of opinion are confined merely to political sphere and within the frame- work of mono-religious and mono-cultural situation. For Asians, on the other hand, pluralism has been the way of life. They have lived and co-existed with different religions harmoniously. Even in the absence of political democracy tolerance towards other religions and cultures has been their way of life. We do not find bloodshed in Asian countries between followers of different religions throughout medieval ages.

In the West, on the other hand, though there has been political democracy and tolerance for political differences, its record on religious and cultural tolerance has not been very glorious. Since political democracy demands tolerance and freedom of opinion, they tried to apply it to religious and cultural field too but I am afraid, not with very great success. Below the skin they remain mono-religious and mono-cultural.

There is one more dimension to this problem. West has never been very comfortable with Islam and Muslims. It was always seen as a religion of the alien, and hostile alien, at that. France with all its democratic and secular values interpreted secularism within a very narrow French framework it became very uncomfortable with hijab worn by school girls and at last the Central Government banned it. How the hijab worn by schoolgirls could be a threat to French secularism, we fail to understand.

In fact hijab was only a symbol. Behind it they saw Islam as a threat. In all European countries, Muslims are recent migrants and are perceived as double threat – as migrant and as Muslim. All migrants make natives uncomfortable and more so if they belong to a religion or culture perceived to be hostile. Prof. Huntington of Harvard had given vent to the western feelings when he wrote Clash of Civilizations.

Western countries were compelled to allow Asian and African migrants as they were experiencing acute shortage of human-power after Second World War but once migration reached saturation point and economic downturn began tensions began to surface and in many countries racial riots broke out.

There is yet another factor: these Asian and African migrants soon realised they are condemned to remain on margins of western society. They do not get opportunities for better and well paid jobs and their children, out of frustration, take to drug or crime or to violence further reinforcing the images of violent outsider. The rejection becomes more intense leading to more tensions. Recent disturbances in France, which continued for several months between the police and young Africans, proves the point.

Since there is so much hostility between Western Christians and migrant Muslims, it erupts in different ways. The recent cartoons and caricature of the Prophet should also be seen in this light. The events of 9/11 have only aggravated the whole situation. Be it Salman Rushdie affair or the cartoons published in the Newspaper of Denmark, it is part of same phenomenon. Deep prejudices against Islam and Muslims spring up in different forms and are defended in the name of press freedom.

Many Western leaders like Bush and Kofi Annan have admitted that one cannot disregard religious sensibilities in the name of freedom of opinion. I need not say that freedom of opinion cannot be absolute as many Westerners maintain. One cannot defend right to abuse others or caricature founders of religion in the name of freedom of press or freedom of opinion.

One can concede that west is much more secularised and Muslim world is not. Let us not forget that West has taken more than three centuries to secularise and this process of modernisation and secularisation has begun only in last few decades. Cultural differences are there but these differences should not be depicted as hostile resulting in clashes. Muslim world is still far behind in the field of science and technology. As pointed out above when west with all its progress has not been able to shed its prejudices and hostile perceptions, how can one expect it from the Islamic world?

ATT: Malcolm:

We should be extremely thankful that the Jews progressed beyond the lunatic theology of Moses. The world would really be screwed up with fanatic muslims and Moses-era Jews running loose.

March 31, 2008 11:50 PM

Topic, assuming some *reasonable* people are trying to live, here?

We should be extremely thankful that the Jews progressed beyond the lunatic theology of Moses. The world would really be screwed up with fanatic muslims and Moses-era Jews running loose.

Topic?

In 1991,george Bush senior mounted operation desert storm.Tens of thousands of Iraqis where killed in the war [200000 died in gulf war ,USAtoday,30may 1991].
Iraq's fields were bombed with more than 300 tonnes of depleted uranium,causing a fourfold increase in cancer among children.[CBS60 minutes,26Dec1999.THE NATION263:12,21oct1996.BBC Newsonline,29Apr2003]
For more than 13 yrs,24million Iraqis have lived in war zone and been denied access to medicine and clean water. Cruelty did not fluctuate whether the Democrats or Republicans where in the white house.
Half a million Iraqi children died because of sanctions [ UNICEF 1999,child and maternal mortalitysurvey1999,unicef,Iraq.] The new detailed lancet study say as many as one mllion iraqi deaths since 2003 Iraqi invasion

*patpat* Good boy, JJ. I'm sure someone'll be along with your kibble any time, now.

How brave you are.

"What's up with all these crazy comments? It's clear to me that bigotry is alive and well in the USA."

Probably safest to assume so, but I still can't be sure this isn't just post-mortem twitching. Darned if I can see a pattern of responsiveness. :)

"You are like this sparrow fighting her image in the mirror, picking fight with me instead of these so called "faithful"!"

Is that what you see?

Interesting. :)

Speaking of mirrors and all, that is.

forgot to mention, Not a big deal that Bart Ehrman has his job, what is wonderful is that he has it is a STATE ( tax payer funded; in NC where atleast a plurality of taxpayers are "the people of the good book"). That would be like Hirsi holding a Chair in "Islamabad University" or "Cairo University" would it not?
So before you equate your Christian thugs with Ebrahim's thugs, look at the scale and then commit to the comparison....

What's up with all these crazy comments? It's clear to me that bigotry is alive and well in the USA.

One more thing PAGANPLACE,

Remember, for every Christian fundamentalist; you see 5 Christian liberals. For every crazy nutjob Jew you get 5 pork eating Jews...
I have not seen many "cultural" muslims.. If at all they exist they must all have their "mute" button on.....
There is a huge population of Christians ( some even in their clergy) that will pounce on their own fundamentalists ( the kind that wants to steal your government)... they keep them in check. A guy like Bart Ehrman talks about leaving his faith and no one jumps to kill him... in fact he even has his job as a professor of religion with special interest in the new testaments!
thats why the Christian "they" do not scare me as much. The day Hirsi Ali walks around freely in Saudi Arabia; I will talk to Ebrahim. I will even treat him to dinner ( he can bring you and your partner too and it will not be a mashed potato/hotdog meal in Southie but a five course Italian one in the North End)
Till then, he just needs to turn around and work or fixing his house.

( well, may be I will lower the bar.. forget Saudi Arabia, let her walk freely in the UK or the USA)
Have you noticed; Baltimore city politicians keep talking about their city's "image" problem? And keep doling out money to consultants to figure out how to "improve" its image? The answer is right in front of them.. fix your darn city and image will take care of itself.. the same goes to Ebrahim, fix your creed and the image will take care of itself....
Here is a thought, instead of this interfaith core crap he has; he can work with a "Muslim" member of your club the Canadian, Irshad Manji on a project "Lets get Irshad accepted by 10% of his clergy"

The problem, Paganplace is that Ebrahim "pretends" he is doing something constructive. The only "construction" he is doing is that of a "house of smoke and mirrors" where his creed looks pretty and all is well in GOD'S land. He has you eating from both his hands.
You can probably get a sneak peek at his face behind his mask when he talks about Hirsi Ali or whitewashes over the bigotary of Cat Stevens aka Yusuf Islam.

You are like this sparrow fighting her image in the mirror, picking fight with me instead of these so called "faithful"!
You ask me questions like " who are they" like you do not know who we are talking about!

I told you , when I would have discussions with his kind in my previous post.. now if you want to talk unconditionally; go right ahead...
go play nicey nicey and kissy kissy with Ebrahim. I have burnt my fingers with his ilk and you go do the same...

BTW, did you seriously think, after reading my posts that I would not know that Dalai is an adjective?