Anonymous writes: "I will not speak if I donot have freedom of speech provided by Islam and I assure You that Truth Hurts"

What freedom of speech provided by Islam? Islam does not provide any freedom of speech. Kill those who insult the prophet? That is what you call freedom of speech?

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?QR=22809&ln=eng

The scholars are unanimously agreed that a Muslim who insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) becomes a kaafir and an apostate who is to be executed. This consensus was narrated by more than one of the scholars, such as Imaam Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh, Ibn al-Mundhir, al-Qaadi ‘Iyaad, al-Khattaabi and others. Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/13-16

You do not even know what is the most basinc meaning of freedom of speech. You live in terror of your own thoughts. You live in the fear of a Hell implanted in you since the day you were born.

"Although Your thoughts are free but cannot help you imagine yourself in Hell. So what kind of Hipocracy you practice."

There you go. There it is Hell in your thoughts. Hell Fire mentioned to you tens of times a day and you cannot think of anything else. Terrified you live of having a single free thought. Have you ever had an independent thought by yourself?

"And what kind of freedom of speech you preach when you cannot digest the truth being told about you."
What truth? Your fervid imagination of a Hell does not make it true. Provide a single proof of something you claim is true. Just one independent proof will do.

"The Creator of this Universe will make you Die & Your Dante and ensure that You receive the punisment reserved for insulting The Most Nobel Person ever born on earth. Prevent your self if you can. You are responsible for your own destiney."

Muhammad was not the most nobel person ever born. Everythin that is told about Muhammad belies that.
Do you think enslaving thousand of women and children and gift them and selling them and ransoming them are the deeds of a noble person? Do you think looting, killing, raping are the deeds of a noble person? Your brain is so terrified of hell that you cannot think. The terror of hell scares children and muslims like you who are unable to free themselves of the terror placed into their very soul.

"At times we get emotional as we love our Prophet more than our kids. Today, we don't bury baby girls alive, we dont commit adultry, we donot drink wine.....etc, you know why, because he taught us Islam, the righteous way of life."

You do not even know that you are being just plain stupid. Pre-Islamic Arabs did not bury baby girls. It was perhaps the activity of some morons in a single tribe. In Pakistan many muslims are still killing baby girls because they want boys, but now the blame is on "culture" although the muslims are doing it. Go look up the statistics on adultry in the muslim world. Human nature is different in the muslim world? You don't commit adultry but the shias still have Mutah marriages and the sunnis have Misyar marriages? Give money to the mullah and you can have marriage for two hours? Pay the money to the parents and you can have marriage visiting rights to the girl and call it marriage. Is that what you mean there is no adultry in Islam? Phooey to that type of lying and crushing the women under your Islamic hypocrisy.

*******
A misyar contract is a marriage contract where couples can live separately but get together regularly, often for sexual relations.
Although allowed in Saudi Arabia and under Sunni Islam, misyar is not popular with many who see it as legal prostitution. Women lose nearly all their rights in a misyar marriage.
Nearly 80% of misyar relationships end in divorce.

************

And you don't drink wine and is that why there are breweries all across the muslim lands? It is true that alcohol consumption is lower in the East Mediterranean countries than it is in the west, but don't fool yourself that muslims don't drink. The rich among the muslims are some of the worst lushes around. You don't even know when you are lying. You may want to peddle your silly lies to someone who does not know Islam and has not travelled and live among muslims most of his life.

A. Kafir:

I will not speak if I donot have freedom of speech provided by Islam and I assure You that
Truth Hurts:

Although Your thoughts are free but cannot help you imagine yourself in Hell. So what kind of Hipocracy you practice.

And what kind of freedom of speech you preach when you cannot digest the truth being told about you.

The Creator of this Universe will make you Die & Your Dante and ensure that You receive the punisment reserved for insulting The Most Nobel Person ever born on earth. Prevent your self if you can. You are responsible for your own destiney.

At times we get emotional as we love our Prophet more than our kids. Today, we don't bury baby girls alive, we dont commit adultry, we donot drink wine.....etc, you know why, because he taught us Islam, the righteous way of life.

Anonymous writes: "The Destination of a Kafir is Hell!!!"

I assure that if there is a Hell and the Creator of all is just, then as Dante wrote, Muhammad is roasting in the deepest part of Hell.

As long as Kafirs are able to keep and maintain their right to freedom of speech and thought, you are more than welcome to your flourishing economies.

The Destination of a Kafir is Hell!!!

They cannot go to land of florishing economy.

Anonymous writes:

"You are the one who is decaying and degenerating whereas the lands of Islam are flourishing. Read some economy and try to be analytical, perhaps hard for a brain damaged person.

You are the one who is issuing confused and conflicting statements. Correct."

LoL!! How typical! No proof, no evidence, nothing. Just a whine?

Well then hopefully the long lines of the muhammadans wanting to get into the decaying and degenerating countries will diminish, and hopefully some of the muhammad followers among the kaffirs will choose to go to the flourishing lands of islam. Let the kafirs know if there is anything we can do to speed that up.

A. KAfir

You got it wrong again!!

You are the one who is decaying and degenerating whereas the lands of Islam are flourishing. Read some economy and try to be analytical, perhaps hard for a brain damaged person.

You are the one who is issuing confused and conflicting statements. Correct.

Anonymous,

Islam damages the analytical part of the human brain when it comes to matters on islam or muhammad. You are drowning in fear of your judgment day. The boogey Allah will get you and will burn you for ever and ever and ever. Be afraid be very very very afraid of allah and his fire. No wonder the lands of Islam are decaying and degenerating.

As far as when the hell fire is used, now or only after judgment day, Muhammad as usual was confused and asserted conflicting statements. So go check on your quran and hadiath and blame them for when the hell fire begins.

To a Kafir & his proxies:

Islam is a complete religion.

It appears that you haven't applied enough thought, for example the verse quoted by you says "111:3 Soon he will be broiled in blazing fire"

. . . and you have started calculating how many times a man should burn over a period of 1400 years.

Have you ever heard about day of judgement . . .

Anonymous writes; "before you find yourself in the same situation like Abi Lahab"

And there is the sum of all morality and religion for the followers of Muhammad. Terror and fear ... that is it. Be very very very afraid of the boogey man Allah ... he will burn your and he will roast you and you will be very very very sorry.

Is that it? Is that your Islam?

This poor person writes;
"Read it again and apply some thought;"
about koranic verse 111:1~4, I'd like to ask him a very simple question; How can such utterances be attributed to a creator? Those are clearly words of an extremly frustrated "rasool" who of course cannot kill/murder his very own uncle so in his fit of rage he spews these "verses". Look at them and tell us what kind of creator can write such crap?
"111:3 Soon he will be broiled in blazing fire" What is this? who writes this rubbish? It is these verses that keep you coming back to your allah, you live in fear.
Couldn't allah simply eliminate this guy? why did he have to say such vile words that you muslims repeat like parrots?

Think for a little, Creator creates man, then lites a hot fire somewhere in the heavens perhaps on planet Mercuary, Creator really hates this Lahab man, stokes his fire, waits for Lahab AND his wife to die, throws them in his huge bon-fire. Skin charred - Creator re-creates the charred body, stoke fire some more, burns Lahab and his wife's a$$ again, Creator hears screams - gloats for five celestial minutes then skin really charred - Creator carefully recreates burn victims skin, repeats torture infinite times. What is this? Doens't anyone find this stupid? Back 1400 years ago the dumb Arabs could buy that rubbish, today 2008 arn't you embarrassed by such "verses"? I know many Muslims are embarrassed by the Hadith, in fact great saints like Bokhari etc are no longer quoted. Could it be that soon even the koran will be relegated to the stupid shelf one day?

This guy then says this to scare others;
"before you find yourself in the same situation like Abi Lahab "
Sweetheart, Abu Lahab and his wife have been burning since 1400 years and Creator has been gloating and re-creating his skin over and over don't you think that he's tired of doing that by now? Lets do some math;
Burn 1 man in very hot Allah-fire = 4 seconds.
Recreate 1 man skin by Allah = 2 seconds;
1400 years of this darn I'd need a computer to compute that.

A. Kafir & his proxies, you have quoted a very good verse from the holy Qoran, for your own benifit:

Read it again and apply some thought;

Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Raheem

"111:1 [With the help and triumph achieved with the Guidance of Allah{110:1}] Perished is the power of Abi Lahab [and the substance, authority, priesthood, and religious dogma that he epitomises] and doomed is he to suffer loss, diminution and perdition.

111:2 All his wealth and exploits [for which he offered such a stiff resistance to the Divine Order] will not avail him aught against his demise

111:3 Soon will he be broiled in the blazing fire

111:4 And his wife [with all those whom she represents] who incited, instigated, slandered and smear-campaigned [against the Divine Order]"

before you find yourself in the same situation like Abi Lahab

Moody:

You say "Women get rapped every 8th hour in Pakistan means 1095 approxi in an YEAR in the population of almost 170 million (which is even than not exceptable by Muslim standards)."

That is the number reported. The true number is much higher because victims are hesitant to report for fear that they might incriminate themselves according to the Sharia stipulation of four Muslim men witnesses. But this was not the intent of my post i.e.compare numbers of rapes in different countries. It was to expose your usual false claims. I do not really figure out whether you are mentally handicapped or simply play dumb to avoid facing up to your inconsistences. It is people like you who make a constructive dialogue near impossible.

A slave of Allah writes this...
"When you people started revising holy books like the Torah & the Bible. The creator decided to send and preserve till the last day, the final word in the form of "Qoran" "
Lets read the "final" word from the "Qoran"...
111:1 [With the help and triumph achieved with the Guidance of Allah{110:1}] Perished is the power of Abi Lahab [and the substance, authority, priesthood, and religious dogma that he epitomises] and doomed is he to suffer loss, diminution and perdition.

111:2 All his wealth and exploits [for which he offered such a stiff resistance to the Divine Order] will not avail him aught against his demise

111:3 Soon will he be broiled in the blazing fire

111:4 And his wife [with all those whom she represents] who incited, instigated, slandered and smear-campaigned [against the Divine Order]

Please tell us how does a creator write such crap about its creation? Creator here is pi$$ed off at mo's uncle, he is so pi$$ed that he does not even spare his wife, that poor thing has to burn also.

Moody and Anonymous,

I showed you what Yasmin Alibhai of UK has to say. Instead of answering my question, you choose to divert the issue by dragging in one of the hates of Islam. Islamic Sharia kills homosexuals. We know that. Islamic Sharia kills apostates. We also know that. Allah tells you to torture humans to death. Allah tells you to cut off peoples limbs. Allah tells you to stone humans to death. And that is what I have been asking you about. Why so much cruelty and hatred from your savage Allah? Why?

Then the stupidity that Quran has not been changed or altered. Do you think the Bible or the Torah that sits in the Museums and are from before the time of Muhammad have some how magically changed? As far as the claim that Quran has not changed, better look at the research by Ibn Warraq and others, and they have put to rest even that lie.

Why do you follow a savage and a barbarian like Muhammad? Why don't you try, just try, to use your brains just a little bit? Do you think for a second that the entire world is not going to see the absolute barbarity and hideousness and evil of your death cult? Do you really think that the questions I ask are not going to be asked more and more by everyone around the world?

Ajit wrote;
"The homosexuals want to engage in deviant sexual (mis)conduct. They do not want any opposition to this abnormal destructive behavior."

Blaming certain groups of people for serious shortcomings in Islam is not the solution to the problem. Have you any proof that Homosexuals are behind the destruction of heterosexual relationships or religion for that matter? That homosexuals want to engage in deviant sexual (mis)conduct is simply your opinion without any backing it is meaningless drivel.

"I have read many blogs where Christians and Orthodox Jews also condemn this sexual misconduct, many homosexuals come out and condemn Christianity and Judaism as well."

Reading blogs where Christians and Jews congregate does not mean anything, it may be that homosexuals condemn Christianity and Judaism because their scriptures condemn the homosexual act. A homosexual had no choice in his/her orientation they simply want to be accepted as humans and not discarded.

Ajit writes this gem;
"Since Eboo writes about Islam and Muslims, a bunch possibly of homosexuals are out there to attack him and his religion."

So by your reasoning the only people who see fault with Islam are homosexuals. Homosexuals are very smart if they are allowed to live they prove to be good tax paying citizens. They generally have above average intelligence and I would listen to them when they criticize Islam.

The all wise Ajit then makes this sweeping statement...
"This bunch professes that homosexuality is not a choice. That is a bunch of balony. It is a choice, it can be controlled and abstained."

Perhaps you are a homosexual and you know this?

Ajit the slave of Allah then writes;
"To the demented mind a woman's body is "beautiful". Ask any biologists and he/she will tell you that in biology there is no such thing as "beautiful"."

Biologists typically study animals and plants or zoology and botany. The study of human behavior is another science. In case you don't know but the human mind is much more complex than that of our nearest kin the chimps and apes. Typical heterosexual humans do find the opposite sex appealing and beautiful; homosexuals find some of their own kind beautiful. Humans, the normal ones if not suppressed as in Islam express beauty in the form of Art. Art a human trait was killed by your misogynist, last messenger, rasool allah, prophet mohammed. How would you or that biologist of yours know what beautiful is. Also, I don't need to ask any biologist what is so obvious since the dawn of man especially that biologist from Al-Azhar university in Cairo BFE.

Ajit You need to know a fundamental problem with your Islam; the hatred for Art, Art expresses beauty. It is no wonder you and your Al-Azhar biologists hate the word beautiful.

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

It is amazing to see you people don't understand the simple fact "Word of God cannot be changed".

When you people started revising holy books like the Torah & the Bible. The creator decided to send and preserve till the last day, the final word in the form of "Qoran"

Go and change millions of books that are written by humans with inherent errors.

The problems/flaws with/in the basics of Islam are repeated again and again because no Muslim has yet to utter one line of disagreement i.e. meaning the following flaws in Islam are true.

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. And Shiites think the same way about Sunnis.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.
These are tough issues. Address them, correct them then ask again to be allowed into the civil world!!!!!

And accusing someone of spreading/"parroting" hate and lies does not work when these "someones" are simply listing the facts. If you have counter points about your beliefs then list them. Hiding behind imams and clerics blinded by 1400 years of brainwashing serves no purpose other than to secure a dishonest living for said imams and clerics.

A. Kafir: Thought of the Day

Why do you always apply your Ass when you need to apply your Brain

A. Kafir: Thought of the Day

Why do you always apply your Ass when you need to apply your Brain.

Sadly- secularists (along with homosexuals, jews, and christians) have been considered and rejected in this group of videos taken at a large British mosque. If you've always wondered what muslems are really saying among themselves- this is a real eyeopener:

MUST SEE-

Undercover Mosque 1/5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlV-6-FihFg

A. Kafir,

Let me rephrase it!
Using or not using brain is one thing.
Having it in THE creamy yellowish middle of male buttock is another.

Your last post sounds like you are the advisory and belong to THE Gay Community??

Correct me if I’m wrong!

Ibrahim Mahfouz,

Lets for the sake of argument,
as per your information (which is not much authentic

Women get rapped every 8th hour in Pakistan means

1095 approxi in an YEAR in the population of almost 170 million (which is even than not exceptable by Muslim standards).

What about West lets only talk about USA,

According to International Crime Watch, , Your own USA Crime Dept.

more than 2800 womens get raped EVERY DAY, in less than every 32 seconds AND THAT FIGURES ARE EXCLUDING UNREGISTERED RAPES.

Means more than 1 million get raped every year in ALONE WESTERNIZED USA.

EVERY 2ND WOMEN GETS RAPED IN USA ONCE IN HER LIFE TIME.

NOW IF THERE IS LITTLE BIT OF SHAME YOU HAVE THEN GET LOST!!!!

A. Kafir,

Using or not using brain is one thing. Having it between the butock cheeks is another.

I hope you do not belong to THE Gay Community??

Moody,

Now you are regressing into blurting nonsensical islamic propaganda. Do you really believe in the utter nonsense you have written?

This is what an educated muslim woman in UK says about Islamic Sharia:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-what-he-wishes-on-us-is-an-abomination-780186.html
******************
Look around the Islamic world where sharia rules and, in every single country, these ordinances reduce our human value to less than half that is accorded a male; homosexuals are imprisoned or killed, children have no free voice or autonomy, authoritarianism rules and infantilises populations.

What's more, different Muslim nations claim to have their own allegedly god-given sharia. In Saudi Arabia, women cannot drive (What in Allah's name could the Koran have warned about cars?).

.....
The Iranian theocracy changes its regulations from year to year, capriciously playing with the lives of females. The morality police hound women and girls, beat them up, imprison them for showing an ankle, walking too provocatively or singing in the streets. They fight back but are ground down eventually.
.......
Two Iranian friends chose to die rather than live under the demeaning religious orders. Go to Afghanistan if you fancy a 12-year-old bride – a practice approved by the mullahs. That's sharia for you. Many women, gay men and dissidents came to Britain to escape Islamic tyrants and their laws. Dr Williams supports those laws and, by default, makes the refugees victims again.

Four years ago, a Saudi woman in her fifties came to my home. She was divorced from a Saudi prince who had sent her away and kept her children. What she said about sharia cannot be repeated. She had money, this princess, but no parental rights and she howled like a child in excruciating pain in my living room.
.......
*************************

Moody don't you feel the slightest shame in trying to push your misogynist death cult? You do have a brain. Try using it some time.

Ibrahim Mahfouz:

It is of no use clarifying against hatred full CONSTANT lies.

ANY BODY CAN SEE THROUGH YOUR POSTS!
KEEP ON LYING TO MAKE YOUR POINTS, CARRY ON!!!!

Islamic Sharia Law:

BAD NEWS FOR CRIMINALS!!!!

Killers, Molesters, Thieves, Rapists, Abusers, Drug Abusers, Violence lovers.

Good news for,

1- Women’s, up lifting there status, protecting there due rights as Mothers, Sisters, Wife’s & Daughters, Nieces or relatives. Rejecting any possibility of there becoming mistresses, prostitutes or public property for casual use and for nude display like all over in ONLY West in the name of freedom and culture and forcing them to do labor and earn themselves, raise children and maintain housing ALL ALONE, no body is sharing permanent responsibility. Just Freedom Free For Sex. (And backward Muslims are denouncing that all to there women’s, HUH! stupid they are RIGHT?)

2- Children’s rights about there proper up bringing and nurturing. Saving them from "Homo Unnatural Incest Struck Parents".

3- For parents to give them there due respect and position keep them together when they are old and needy like they nurture and brought up us for our first 18-25 years.
4- Neighbors,
5- And ALL Communities.

Islamic Sharia Law:

BAD NEWS FOR CRIMINALS!!!!

Killers, Molestors, Theives,Rapists,Abusers,Drug Abusers, Voilence lovers.

Good news for,

1- Womens, up lifting there status, protecting there due rights as Mothers, Sisters, Wifes & Daughters, Nices or relatives. Rejecting any possibility of there becoming mistresses, prositutes or public property for casual use and for nud display like all over in ONLY West in the name of freedom and culture and forcing them to do labor and earn themselves, raise childern and maintain housing ALL ALONE, no body is sharing permanent responsibility. Just Freedom Free For Sex.(And backward Muslims are denouncing that all to there womens, HUH! stupid they are RIGHT?)

2- Childerns rights about there proper up bringing and nurturing. Saving them from "Homo Unnatural Incest Struck Parents".

3- For parents to give them there due respect and position keep them togather when they are old and needy like they nuture and brought up us for our first 18-25 years.
4- Neighbours,
5- And ALL Communities.

Thanks for the link:

“Islamic Law, Rape and Women’s rights”

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002976.html

Moody:
You say in your post of Feb.17 at1:29 AM regarding evidence for conviction of rape in the Sharia:

-” 4 witnesses required (Which is almost impossible & not required in case if woman is raped)”.

In the article “Islamic Law, Rape and Women’s rights” it states the following:
“Very few cases of rape happen with four witnesses present, let alone four "reliable and truthful" Muslim witnesses. For this reason, there is currently a virtual epidemic of gang rape in Pakistan. According to HCRP, a woman is gang-raped every eight hours in Pakistan. Women are fearful of reporting cases of rape, as the law demands that she produces four witnesses. Unable to do so, she automatically is considered to have proved herself guilty of zina (adultery) under clause 8 (a) by means of making a full confession.”
www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002976.html

Anonymous writes: "
Gentlemen:
Punishments are periscribed based on the gravity of commited Crimes.
See a man without a hand & try to imagine yourself comitting the same crime. Being a Human,its impossible. Therefore what happens Crime rate!!!"

Another Muhammadan telling the Kafirs that cutting of limbs is the way to go to control crime because Quran says so .. because Allah ordera it so.

Facts be damned. Do yourself a favor and check the facts for yourself. Why is it that the Islamic nations are still cutting off limbs after 1400 years, if it such an impossibility? And do yourself a favor and check the actual crime rates in Pakistan, Iran and Arabia and a little less reliance on the propaganda of no crime rates in Arab countries!!!

And what do you think of blood money for murder? How about the life of a kafir woman being worth only an eigth of a muslim man?

Stop the Hatred:

Why do you resort to rhetorical tricks? You have not even attempted to answer the questions posed to you. At least Moody has the honesty and integrity to look up the answer at Zacker the Quacker site and try to show it. He believes in the answer he gives. You do not even have that much honesty!! Moody thinks that men need barbarity and savagery on one hand and then he turns around and tells that the west is imposing lax laws all over the world and ruining societies everywhere. How about you?

Why don't you at least try to tell us what you think of Allah telling to cut off limbs, killing by torturing to death, stoning to death, etc.? At least have the conviction to answer. If I have missed your answer, which I do not believe I have, then where and when does the question arise to accept defeat in discussion. Show me that I am wrong. I will be the happiest person if you can show me that I am wrong. For you it is merely a discussion. For me it is having to come to terms that I am no longer a muslim because Islam is false, and Allah is not real. How can I or for that matter YOU believe in an Allah that is as savage and as cruel as ordering people to kill other people by torturing them to death!! Just plain killing, just plain "put them to death" was not and is not good enough for your Allah!! He has to order ... crucify them, stone them, cut their limbs off.

So please have the decency and answer. Do you agree with Moody? Do you think that thieves should have their hands cut off? Iran just cut off the hand of 20 young men. Moody says he does not see too many people with a missing hand or foot in Saudi Arabia. How about you?

Stop the hatred,

The problems/flaws with/in the basics of Islam are repeated again and again because no Muslim has yet to utter one line of disagreement i.e. meaning the following flaws in Islam are true.

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. And Shiites think the same way about Sunnis.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.
These are tough issues. Address them, correct them then ask again to be allowed into the civil world!!!!!

And accusing someone of spreading/"parroting" hate and lies does not work when these "someones" are simply listing the facts. If you have counter points about your beliefs then list them. Hiding behind imams and clerics blinded by 1400 years of brainwashing serves no purpose other than to secure a dishonest living for said imams and clerics.

" A. Kafir:

'Stop the Hatred', Unable to answer a simple question? You charge and then you run away and cannot justify a simple statement. Why does Islam damage the human brain so much?"

When you resort to this kind of rhetoric, it is obvious that you are unable to accept defeat in your discussion.

'Stop the Hatred', Unable to answer a simple question? You charge and then you run away and cannot justify a simple statement. Why does Islam damage the human brain so much?

************************************

Moody,

You Apologized for being ignorant? You did not know. Now you defend savagery and barbarism by making up fictional tales. Women are being stoned in Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan ... so much for your justification of it is impossible to find 4 witness. Not only that but if the woman is raped, and she brings the charge and is unable to produce the witness, she is charge with adultry and stoned to death. Islamic justice for you!! And before you go off like a fool charging never happens, look up some cases in the great islamic lands that I have mentioned.

And Zaker the Quacker and his site is filled with lies and stupidities. You keep cutting and pasting from it, and you think that answers anything? I hope the Kafirs can see clearly that through all of Moody's yelling and screaming his answer is that the Islamic countries are correct in imposing the cruel and unusal punishments and it is the modern world that is at fault for not imposing them. Islamic Sharia cannot budge from the 7th century barbarism because it is in the Quran.

Notice, moody did not say anything about crucifixion. He did not know but now he knows it is in the Quran, hence he is all for it and thinks it is a great deterrence and should be applied. That is a islam in a nutshell.

Gentlemen:

Punishments are periscribed based on the gravity of commited Crimes.

See a man without a hand & try to imagine yourself comitting the same crime. Being a Human,its impossible. Therefore what happens Crime rate!!!

"Is this how you teach your children to LOVE LIFE and their fellow man? Have a human heart, StopThe Hatred, and live up to your name by denouncing the treatment of children shown in these utubes publicly- here and now":

Stop Teaching Your Children the Goal of Life is Suicide and Murder:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xc_5LbRe5p8

Twelve yr old Child Bride is Abused by "Husband"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7So-1o2bkAY

Perhaps the good Eboo Patel would also add his comments of condemnation.

For a progressive society like America, The discussions are expected to be constructive.

It appears to have been hijacked by small minority of intolerant Anti-Muslim bigots.

Shame on those Kafirs & their rotten pessimistic thoughts, I wish they were never American - The land of Liberty, Freedom and Opportunity.

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

Here goes the parrot again. Parrots can repeat the same thing again and again.

To All Muslims,

Your problems go beyond the Bin Ladens, the Shiite Iranian crazies and the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

The problems are in the basic foundations of Islam itself as one can see from the following:

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. And Shiites think the same way about Sunnis.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.
These are tough issues.

Address them, correct them then ask again to be allowed into the civil world!!!!!

And accusing someone of spreading hate and lies does not work when these "someones" are simply listing the facts. If you have counter points about your beliefs then list them. Hiding behind imams and clerics blinded by 1400 years of brainwashing serves no purpose other than to secure a dishonest living for said imams and clerics.

A Cyber Friend & Volunteer For "HILLARY FOR PREZ"

VOTE: Abolish ALL PRE-APOCALYPTIC old-time "iMPORTED" [Not-Made or Prophecied in Sweet Sweet U.S.A.) Pre-Apocalyptic 'Cottage-Religions" and competing religilous's in U.S. of A., not non-religio Industry's, NOW!!

Deport ALL of the VATICAN 'PRE-APOCALYPTIC POLY-THEO Catholic Roman Empire "PEDAPHILE/HOMOSEXUAL-PRIESTS/BISHOPS/CARDINALS" & their SuperStupidStitious Man-Made (not genuine HOLY-COSMIC ECLATi made SYSTEM ) back overseas from whence they illegally Imported their 'CURSE & SIN(s)' into older U.S.A., but no longer into the "New APOCALYPTIC-AMERICA-NATiON" U.S.A of 100 States!!!!

Note: This is the E*C*L*A*T*i-ON Prophecy! Please do not be in denial to self nor others! Tonks!

VOTE: DEPORT ALL, Not-Made-IN-A*M*E*R*i*C*A, PRE-APOCALYPTIC old-time iMPORTED Religions, Not MEXICANS!

INstead Unite MEXICO w/U.S.A for an Additional 10 States!!! As a Matter of fact, VOTE to Merge & Absorb All AMERICA upto & No Further than PANAMMA, ironically John McCAINS "Birth Place! "Imagine" (john Lennon; pbuh) 100 U.S. States?

Then We can Say Good bye Middle East & Good Ridence!!!

Important: The Chinese Zionist {MAO's et al} are in Mexico too & populated Mexico 10-fold in last 10 Years! Remember, the Chinese want to POISON Americano's Minds via their Dangerous/un-Healthy Products!!! So They [Chinese Atheistic/Zionists] must be kicked-out of there ASAP! Ya Ya!

Trivia: Did ye knowth that Senator , wanabe Prez John McCain is a 'Dual Citizen of Panama & USA?

PS: Did you also know that John McCain & His Wife , are ALCOHOL Pushers & have lots of Blood on their hand for many Highway Car Crashes due to their Alchol Monopoly Biz in ARIZONA!?????

Please see these linko's on Cindy Lou Hensley the daughter of James W. Hensley, a wealthy Anheuser-Busch distributor from Phoenix, Arizona. McCain filed for and obtained an uncontested divorce from his wife in Florida on April 2, 1980 and promptly married Cindy on May 17, 1980.

http://www.usvetdsp.com/mcaindiv.htm

Shame Shame John & Cindy McCAIN!! Kennedy's too!

So: Vote: Deport John McCain all the way back to Panama YEA!

Ya Ya Yo Yo!

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...

http://www .astronomy2009.org/////
USA! USA! USA! USA! USA USA!!
Better a CLINTON than a McCAIN!
STOP THE WAR STOP THE WAR
VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE !!
Better a CLINTON than a McCAIN!
VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE !!
PEACE,PAZ,SALAAM,SHOLOM.....__________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton МИР,평화, 和平:

HELLO APOCALYPTIC-NATION, Sweet sweet U.S. of A.'s!
..
--

"There is a fundamental problem with all Muslims and to put it in perspective in Islam; sex. There is too much emphasis put on the sexuality of humans. If Muslims could only come to terms with the human body it would take away 80% of Islam’s problems. Any practicing Muslim will first home in on the sex crimes and will direct all societies problems to the woman’s clothes and how much of her body must be allowed to be seen. On this very page to the right I see the beautiful body of Jillian Michaels, to all Muslims and to Islam this is Kufar or najiz, or dirty. To them this is the cause of degradation of society, a woman’s body; therefore they cover and hide the female."

This guy limits his problem of sex only to Muslims. He claims to be of Pakistani origin. Then he should know that Hinduism (next door), other Asians, and Africans also condemn making women as sex objects. And so do Christians and Jews.

Our Hindu women also practice modesty in dress. Any one who knows the story of Rama knows that Rama fought Rakshas (evil) Ravana to protect the honor and dignity of his wife, Sita.

To the demented mind a woman's body is "beautiful". Ask any biologists and he/she will tell you that in biology there is no such thing as "beautiful".

It is a mental construct and hence : a woman's beautiful body should be looked at only by her husband and not by some sexual predator and pervert out there.

Arif wrote:

"I always wanted to do an experiment, lock 30 Mullahs in a room and show them porn movies for 30-hours straight. Let them out for a short break and do this drill for 2 years. I wonder if they would drop sex from their world problem agenda and leave the woman and her naked body out of world problems, concentrate only on the Jew and Palestine."

Biologists teach us from early school years the organs made for different functions--digestion (gastro-intestinal), breathing, blood pumping (heart),and (sex) reproduction, to name just a few.

The homosexuals want to engage in deviant sexual (mis)conduct. They do not want any opposition to this abnormal destructive behavior.

Since most religions condemn deviant sexual (mis)conduct) because it violates the natural process and amounts to moral misconduct, some (not all) homosexuals go the extreme and make it their religion to oppose religion.

I have read many blogs where Christians and Orthodox Jews also condemn this sexual misconduct, many homosexuals come out and condemn Christianity and Judaism as well. This man's (and others) attack on Islam appears to be the same kind of thing.

Since Eboo writes about Islam and Muslims, a bunch possibly of homosexuals are out there to attack him and his religion.

This bunch professes that homosexuality is not a choice. That is a bunch of balony. It is a choice, it can be controlled and abstained.

Moody,
There is a fundamental problem with all Muslims and to put it in perspective in Islam; sex. There is too much emphasis put on the sexuality of humans. If Muslims could only come to terms with the human body it would take away 80% of Islam’s problems. Any practicing Muslim will first home in on the sex crimes and will direct all societies problems to the woman’s clothes and how much of her body must be allowed to be seen. On this very page to the right I see the beautiful body of Jillian Michaels, to all Muslims and to Islam this is Kufar or najiz, or dirty. To them this is the cause of degradation of society, a woman’s body; therefore they cover and hide the female. In the West Muslims have to power to cage their own women but want more rights to one day cage ALL the women and make all women feel ashamed of their sexuality and bodies.

Every conversation and discussion with a Muslim will inevitably lead to sex. All of the world’s problems in the Muslim mind begin and end with the woman’s sexuality. Take away the woman and the Jew from this world and Islam has nothing left, it will disintegrate by self immolation t they are good at that anyway.
Ask any Muslim politician or "scholar" and he/she will tell you that all societies problems are below the belt. If one reads Moody’s posts much is dedicated to Hijaab, homosexuality, criminals, woman’s rights and then his solution is Sharia for the world.

All Sharia has to offer is to hide the woman, stone her publicly if she is caught having sex, public display of government anger like lashing, stoning, beheading, hanging, cutting off limbs. Then there are those awful unequal inheritance laws as well as those lopsided laws that favor the Muslim. To all Muslims of the world the only problem this world has is naked women and that too the naked western woman. They are not concerned about the naked women in Africa ... wonder why that is? What is the hang-up with the naked white woman?

I always wanted to do an experiment, lock 30 Mullahs in a room and show them porn movies for 30-hours straight. Let them out for a short break and do this drill for 2 years. I wonder if they would drop sex from their world problem agenda and leave the woman and her naked body out of world problems, concentrate only on the Jew and Palestine.

GHYSLAINE ROC:
Shabat Shalom!
N.B. As a matter of fact, I was wrong to say that the HIJAAB is banned in all Western institutions. When I saw the mistake, it was too late to correct it. The UK (I do not know of the others) allows the HIJAAB in certain schools, in certain work places, in some government employment, national and regional, and in other places, BUT on the condition that Muslims COLLABORATE with the government on issues like Homosexuality, Abortion, the “War on Terror”, and so on.

However, there is something quite funny about Western democracy. France bans the HIJAAB and religious education in all public schools, but grants Wednesday afternoon free in all public schools in order to allow the teaching of the Catholic religion!!!!!!! Some French doctors would even refuse to see patients wearing the HIJAAB! The ban is even sign posted in their surgeries! France even grants public holidays for all Christian Holy Days or Holy Weeks!!!!!!!
When Christians were wearing a crucifix, or a medallion of the “Virgin Mary”, and Jews a Kippa, a Star “of David” (of Rothschild), NOBODY found anything wrong. Only when Muslims wanted just to be Muslims, all hell broke loose!
Nicolas Sarkozy, the Christian who did not know he was Jewish (just like Madeleine Albright and John Kerry), is now telling “France's Jewish community that every 10-year-old schoolchild should be "entrusted with the memory of a French child victim of the Holocaust."”
I am talking here of the uncorrupted Commandments of the Lord. However, I do not think the Lord ever commanded the faithful to murder Palestinians, to head the prostitution racket, to fornicate, to pass laws in favour of abortion, to promote homosexuality and paedophilia, to indulge in usury, to starve and torture innocent people, to bulldoze their houses with the occupiers in them, to uproot olive trees, to bomb people and places and blame it on innocent people, to institutionalise racism, to steal other people’s lands, resources, monopolise all essential commodities, and so on.
The Tallit is a very good thing if it does make the faithful “look at it and recall all the commandments of the Lord and observe them”.
Ghyslaine ROC
SaGHYSLAINE ROC:

Dear Ruth
Shalom ‘Aleikhem!
I am aware of many of the Commandments of the Lord. If the Jewish person could observe even the Decalogue (there are numerous other Commandments), this would make him or her the best of human beings.
The Muslim woman in contrast does not wear her “prayer shawl” in the same manner. Her “prayer shawl” or HIJAAB serves both as a sign of respect before the Lord as well as to make her more decent in appearance. She wears it in public, when travelling and on all occasions. Unfortunately, the nuclear West says it is threatened (scared, terrorised…!) by this “religious ostentation” and had it banned in all public institutions, a sign of Western Liberty (Freedom). The HIJAAB has become a matter for the State to interfere in the free practice of Islam, in particular in France, the country of so-called Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité!
Jews, Christians and Muslims have worn the HIJAAB for centuries, but today only Muslims are demonised for this practice. When I walk into a French Catholic Church, so-called white Catholics (natives) are bare headed whilst Portuguese, Spanish, Mauritian, and Polish women always attend church with their head covered!
“When a woman my age puts on a tallit, it is a statement, tinged with ostentation: “I am Woman, Watch me Pray.” Ruth Marcus
When I put on my HIJAAB in public, I am telling the whole world I am a woman with a mind, not a merchandise, and it is a clear statement of my religious identity. I am a woman, talk to my intellect and do not pay attention to my physical “beauty”!
May The God Who made us all (and not only the Chosen People!) bless you and your family, Ruth!
Ghyslaine ROC
Friday 15th February 6008
turday 16 February 6008

ALL KIND OF POSSIBLE QUESTIONS ASKED BY NON MUSLIMS ARE ANSWERED AT BELOW WEB SITE:

http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm

A. Kafir said,
"and the whole notion of why the kafirs moved away from cruel punishments "

And the reason is because the whole west full of kafirs are CRUEL, KILLING, RAPING, BRUTALIZING AND BULLING CRIMINALS so much lost in there internal out of control raping, molesting, incesting, street violence, racism, denying of womens ACTUAL RIGHTS, marketing and sexually exploiting there whole women race, kids and childern.
And externally destroying, genociding other nations and countries.

THEREFORE IN REALITY "THEY DON'T WANT ANY REAL PUNISHMENT IN THERE WAY AS A DETERRENCE" TO THERE BARBARIC CONTINUOUS WORLD WIDE ON SLOT.
&
TO MAKE SURE OF IT THEY ARE TRYING TO MUNIPULATE ALL THE LAW GOVERNING INSTITUTES IN THE FAVOR TO THERE BARBARIC INTENTIONS.

Note: Above reply is not applied to common peace loving civilians of any race or creed.

I apologize about my "crucifixion" statement.
I was mistaken.

BUT IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE REQUIRED BALANCE OF JUSTICE.

May be A. Kafir "Won't Mind" always be happy and celebrating and LET GO ANY BODY who rapes his mother, daughter or wife???

OR

Molest in the name of preaching OR kill his son?

By the way A. Kafir is very consistant in lying & twisting. IS IT YOUR FIRST OR SECOND NATURE??

About stoning of Adulterours and lashing of fornicators, it is comprehesively discussed on these blogs so many times and explained in Sharia law very clearly.

Mainly:

- 4 witnesses required (Which is almost imposible & not required in case if woman is raped)
- Or themselves they confess to get the punishment and not forcefully, for immediate reward in hereafter, as they leave this world sinless like a baby paying the price, saved from end less bad return and getting the endless goodness.
- Or if no witness and no confession, Allah is Most Forgiving if they repent and don't repeat the sin.

All '?' question marks means YOU (A. Kafir & All shallow cases) are not exempted from ANSWERING.

"AND DARE TO -i- ANSWER, -ii-AGREE OR
-iii-DISAGREE ON EVERY SINGLE POINT WHICH IS UNDER DISCUSSION BEFORE JUMPING TO ALL OTHER SO MANY STUPID TWISTED MINDED QUESTIONS!"

Every Muslim here beleive it, other wise it is senseless JUST SHOUTING AND ARGUING like stupid fools!!!

And thats why you can see all over the blogs that ONLY MUSLIMS ARE COUNTER ANSWERING unlike ALL others!!

And there is TOTAL SILENCE against questions raised by Muslims, like when it comes to there turn of question, Muslims found it like TALKING TO GHOSTS???

The Kafirs really should read Moody's answer to my question.

No muslim can ever ever say that cutting of limbs is barbaric, because Allah himself ordered it. Hence it will always be justified and the example is to show that it is a real deterrence, and the whole notion of why the kafirs moved away from cruel punishments as deterrence is lost on the muslim world for as long as the Quran is source of law.

Stoning of women? Moody does not mention.

But he tries to justify blood money, and does not mention the egregious evil that is for the muslim society. The rich kill with impunity and then force the poor's family to accept blood money.

Moody, do you want to tell the kafirs here as to why the blood money for a Kafir man is half that of a muslim man, and one eithth for a kafir woman? Why is the life of a kafir woman so cheap when it comes to setting the price of blood money?

Moody,
You are an okay guy. You do not know your islam. Most muslims do not. Crucifixion is not allowed in Islam?

Allah says in Quran 5:33

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
PICKTHAL: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
SHAKIR: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

Moody, why does your Allah tell that humans should be crucified, an excruciatingly painful death, a truly savage punishment?

Avinash, Moody and et al:

No, I do not suffer from
Obsessive, Compulsive, Behavioral, Disorder.

What I and most of the other homidids to include yourself suffer from is the Three B Syndrome i.e being Bred, Born and Brainwashed in religions that are based on hallucinations, myths, embellishments and lies. And what is almost hilarious about this is how we have bought into this fictional "pretty wingie thingie" for so long.

The flaws to include the stupidity of the "angel" connections in all three Abrahamic religions are now known. We await your answers as to how you are going to clean up Islam. The clean-up of Judaism and Christianity is well on its way.

And crucifixion is not allowed, forbidden in Islam.

Is lying your second nature A. Kafir???

ALL KIND OF POSSIBLE QUESTIONS ASKED BY NON MUSLIMS ARE ANSWERED AT BELOW WEB SITE:

http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm

A. Kafir,

Though it is useless answering repeatedly your stupid questions, but for one more time :

1- Cutting of hands only apply for the the serial serious crimianls FOR DISCOURAGEMENT in general public. If some body steel due to serious need or hunger and where State is not providing to every needy person IT DOES NOT APPLY. You will hardly find very few thevies in Saudi Arab with one hand short and AS A RESULT you will find the lowest theft rate in the WORLD. Some times people even leave there shops open when go to prayer. CAN YOU IMAGINE IT POSSIBLE SOME WHERE IN THE WEST??

2-Capital punishment for murder is not compulsary in Sharia Law of Islam, but with conditions.
-i- If the close relatives of the murdered are willing to forgive?
-ii- If the close relatives of the murdered are willing to forgive against the Sharia court decided payment?

3- If some body rape your mother, daughter, wife or sister and after doing that come in front of you. What will be the first thing you would like to do with him??
When you ask the same question to any one, they will mostly reply the same; WE WILL KILL HIM or some even say WE'LL KILL HIM THEN CUT HIM INTO PIECE AND FEED HIM TO THE ANIMALS!
But when SOMEBODY ELSES mother wife or daughter is being raped, YOU SAME PEOPLE say it is unjust to give capital punishment. IN ISLAM THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION of race, color or breed. The Law is equal for every body even if it is your SON and the punishment UNANIMOUSLY is CAPITAL.

And again you will find the lowest rape rate in muslim world. Infact womens are HIGHLY RESPECTED & REWARDED, for example, earning is not compulsory for them, there father, husband, brother or sons or relatives and then state (Under Sharia Law) are responsible for providing them.

Stop the Hatred, I posted the below on Feb 15, and you never ever replied. You have been going around in circles no nonsense trying to point fingers at everybody and everyone else. Why don't you answer my simple question?

Do you or do you not find the punishments of crucifixion and cutting of limbs barbaric?

From an earlier Feb 15 answer to stop the hatred.
***************************************
Stop the Hatred writes:
"
When people like A. Kafir, Ibrahim Mahfouz, CNCL spread hate and lies against Muslims, the kind of things mentioned below happen:
TN: Mosque Arsonists Part of 'Christian Identity' Movement

Three men have been charged in the firebombing of a small mosque over the weekend, federal prosecutors said Tuesday."

The people who firebombed the small mosque are criminals and the FBI is treating them as such. When and Where have I ever spread hate and lies against Muslims. It is strange that no muslim ever answers any of the questions I have asked about Islam, but every muslim who posts here always tells us that the very asking of questions on Islam is spreading hate against muslims!!!

Stop the hate, please answer just one question, just one. Here it is for you so you do not even have to look it up:

Muslim women are stoned to death. Theives have their hands cut. Apostates are put to death. Crucifixion and cutting of limbs are punishments ordered by Allah. Your prophet actually carried them out. He did burn the eyes, cut off the limbs and denied the Ukl tribesmen water as they bled to death. This was punishment for murder. Death was not sufficient, but they had to be tortured to death. Allah orders torture of humans in the Quran. These are cruel and savage punishments. So tell me, Why is your Allah so savage, and your prophet so cruel and carries out such savage punishments?

Please answer and do not run and do not hide because no muslim ever answers. And tell the kafirs whether I lie in anything in the material I have written above. You are an educated person obviously. You should be able to answer. Answer, please.

Stop the Hatred:
You quote a Jew to prove how peaceful and tolerant your religion is. I am quoting below a sample of what your Quran and Hadith teaches about the treatment of those who do not subscribe to your belief system.

Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with
their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause.
" Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."
Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious." Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."
Ishaq:324 "He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"
Qur'an:9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them."
Ishaq:300 "I am fighting in Allah's service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah's war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good."
Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."
There is still lot more in the following link:

www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes1.html

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PEACE, PAZ, SALAAM, SHOLOM:........______________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton МИР,평화, 和平:

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

You have cut and pasted this several times during the last several months parroting the same old things. You denigrate Moses, Jesus, Abraham, and Muhammad. You denigrate Hinduism and Buddhism. No wonder somebody had a diagnosis for you: OBSESSIVE, COMPULSIVE, BEHAVIORAL DISORDER (OCB).

Avinash:

First, what counter points do you have that address the basic flaws in Islam??

Second, a synopsis of the general flaws in the founders and foundations in the major contemporary religions:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.
The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven,warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

Ibrahim Mahfouz:

How many times are you going to repeat your lies and when will you stop your campaign of disinformation about Muslims? Your statement is in direct conflict with an Israeli peace activist.

The Israeli is Mr. Uri Avnery, a scholar and peace activist and once a Knesset member. In a recent article, Mr. Avnery says, “The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: how did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years when they had the power to ’spread the faith by the sword’?”

For many centuries, he says, the Muslims ruled Greece. “Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone try to Islamise them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration.

“The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.”

Then he points to a fact which perhaps most Christians do not know. When the Crusaders invaded Palestine, the majority had remained Christian in spite of 400 years of Muslim rule. Then “in the name of gentle Jesus”, he says, the Crusaders “massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants”.

He adds: “There is no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule, the Jews of Spain enjoyed a boom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time.”

Then giving the names of some great Jewish poets and scholars, Mr. Avnery says, “In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, and scientists” and “Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was indeed the Golden Age.

“How would this have been possible had the Prophet decreed the ‘spreading of the faith by the sword’?” Then he refers to the re-conquest of Spain by Catholics and says: “The Jews and Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave.”

Then he asks, “Where did the hundreds of thousands of Jews … escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco … to Iraq, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman empire) … to Sudan. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition … and the terrible mass expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries up to the Holocaust.”

He asks, “Why?” and then he answers, “Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of ‘peoples of the book’. In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians …” Is this fascism?

Then he says something touching: “Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for 50 generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times ‘by the word’ to get them to abandon their faith”.

The story about “spreading the faith by the sword”, he says “is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe” during the many wars with Muslims.

STOP YOUR HATE CAMPAIGN< IBRAHIM MAHFOUZ. YOU HAVE ALREADY DAMAGED YOUR CREDIBILITY TO THE POINT THAT NOBODY BELIEVES YOU ANYMORE.

Stop the Hate:
Since when a Muslim sheds tears ( albeit alligator ones) over the misfortunes of the Jews? Hitler was an evil man and he got his reward, but how about your prophet who exterminated most of the Jews of Arabia, enslaved some and evicted the rest (along with all those who did not believe in his prophethood) ? It is better to first recognize and remove the tree trunk from your eyes before you point out the dust in the others’ eyes.

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

I have been reading your posts here and realize that you are like a parrot who simply knows how to mimic.
You are unable to make any intelligent statement because parrots can not think just mimic.

Your shallowness is quite evident. Have you read any books other than the Bible?

To Eboo and all the other one billion Muslims out there,

Once again:

Your problems go beyond the Bin Ladens, the Shiite Iranian crazies and the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

The problems are in the basic foundations of Islam itself as one can see from the following:

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies"

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. And Shiites think the same way about Sunnis.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

These are tough issues. Address them, correct them then ask again to be allowed into the civil world!!!!!

And accusing someone of spreading hate and lies does not work when these "someones" are simply listing the facts. If you have counter points about your beliefs then list them. Hiding behind imams and clerics blinded by 1400 years of brainwashing serves no purpose other than to secure a dishonest living for said imams and clerics.

StopTheHatred-

You further deflate yourself by claiming "belittling" and "bigotry"- but I guess name-calling is all you have left.

Is this how you teach your children to LOVE LIFE and his fellow man? Have a human heart, StopThe Hatred, and live up to your name by denouncing these utubes publicly here and now:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xc_5LbRe5p8

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7So-1o2bkAY

Mike:

Shame on you again! You belittle the Holocaust and call it an isolated case? Six million Jews were systematically gassed and their property stolen.
You belittle a systematic campaign of expulsions and killings of Jews from the end of the 14th century until the Holocaust and call it an isolated event.

And who gave those European Jews shelter and protection? Was that an isolated coincidence? Just ask Uri Avneri, the Israeli peace activist. He will tell you, who.

You belittle Northern Ireland and the 400 year old sectarian war and call it an isolated event?

You belittle the genocide in Rwanda where close to a million people were massacred and call it an isolated event?

You belittle killings of Christians by Christians in Kenya just recently. Was that too an isolated event?

Your bigotry is beyond belief.

StopTheHatred-

You are being myopic. You keep pointing to isolated events and trying to correlate them with an epidemic.

You have no argument.

Muslims killing Muslims is a DAILY occurence and is raging in over a dozen countries of the world. This does not include instances of Muslim violence against Christians, Jews, Hindu, and Buddhists.

You need to see that Islam is a death cult hellbent to kill not just the "other" but itself as well. It is the end spiral of madness and it is happening now.

Mike: And who planted the seeds of hatred when they committed the genocide in Rwanda? Nearly a million people were massacred with machetes with the help of the church.

And just who planted the seeds of hatred from the end of the 14th century till the Holocaust? More than 6 million Jews were killed and their properties stolen. Where did the remaining Jews go?

And then I repost my earlier post here:

Mike wrote:

"I was going to post today's news of Muslims killing Muslims and you have beaten me to it."

Is your memory too short? Have you already forgotten that Christians killing Christians in Kenya just because they belong to different tribes or speak different languages?

Have you forgotten the Catholics vs Protestant 400 years of war in Northern Ireland? Don't come back and tell us that Catholics are not Christians.

The way to spread the message of peace is not your way of engaging in blame game. Stop the hatred.

You are shameless, Mike or Ibrahim Mahfouz, or A. Kafir!

StopTheHatred-

When you plant the seeds of hatred in your children from generation to generation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJDNXztFmS0

Hatred gives way to violence. And given time violence turns into the madness of self destruction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaWNj19eId8

I can only say again- They aren't victims of an unjust world. They are blood thirsty killers preying on the most vulnerable- their fellow muslims who wish for a better life. "Stop the Hatred", Islam needs your help to get its act together..

Stop the Hatred and American Duty:
You think by insinuating that I along with others are proxies to Kafir, you denigrate us and diminish our credibility. You just can’t believe that any person born into your cult would ever think his way out of it. This is the simplistic mindset that got you and many who share your faith to your sorry state of affairs. That should not be surprising coming from people who still to this day believe that the Quran, whose every page does violence to human rationality, is written by anyone other than a desert dweller: that it predates Creation, and that the Universe was created for the sake of a certain Seventh Century Arabian. You are, furthermore, brainwashed enough to believe that this Bedouin, who does not rise to the level of a decent man, is the perfect model of a human being and should be emulated. No wonder why your Muslim culture is stuck in the Stone Age. When are you people going to wake up and begin to use your God given minds?

American Duty:

Have you considered the possibility that A. Kafir might not be even an ex-Muslim? Of course, there is no way to verify this possibility.

I try to separate myself with spirituality and prejudice because the two are incongruous.

O mankind, We have created you
male and female, and appointed you
races and tribes, that you may know
one another. Surely the noblest
among you in the sight of God is
the most righteous.

" American Duty:

Arif, Mike, Ibrahim Mahfouz are you all proxy of A. kafir."

I have suspected that for quite a while now. These names often post with overlapping languages.

With all respect:

“The evidence is right here – it’s called America"

Arif, Mike, Ibrahim Mahfouz are you all proxy of A. kafir.

To get a sensible answer one must ask a sensible question. Every one of us has the right to know the truth and follow the right path. Lets enjoy the mercy and love showered by our creator.

Well Done Eboo and keep up the Good work.

Mike wrote:

"I was going to post today's news of Muslims killing Muslims and you have beaten me to it."

Is your memory too short? Have you already forgotten that Christians killing Christians in Kenya just because they belong to different tribes or speak different languages?

Have you forgotten the Catholics vs Protestant 400 years of war in Northern Ireland? Don't come back and tell us that Catholics are not Christians.

The way to spread the message of peace is not your way of engaging in blame game. Stop the hatred.

Mike wrote:

"I was going to post today's news of Muslims killing Muslims and you have beaten me to it."

Is your memory too short? Have you already forgotten that Christians killing Christians in Kenya just because they belong to different tribes or speak different languages?

Have you forgotten the Catholics vs Protestant 400 years of war in Northern Ireland? Don't come back and tell us that Catholics are not Christians.

The way to spread the message of peace is not your way of engaging in blame game. Stop the hatred.

put patel's pinsky quote in context--

"In this poem (Robert Frost's poem "Directive"), Frost suggests that our destiny as a people may lie in the difficult action of historical recovery— and that the source of wholeness is in memory... Directive should be part of American memory because it is a lyric about the fragile, heroic enterprise of remembering... Who will remember the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence?... Who will remember the poems of Emily Dickinson and the films of Buster Keaton, the music of Charlie Parker and the prose of Mark Twain?... Who will remember the great work of memory itself, that basic human task? Deciding to remember, and what to remember, is how we decide who we are."

and read frost's directive--

Back out of all this now too much for us,

Back in a time made simple by the loss

Of detail, burned, dissolved, and broken off

Like graveyard marble sculpture in the weather,

There is a house that is no more a house

Upon a farm that is no more a farm

And in a town that is no more a town.

The road there, if you'll let a guide direct you

Who only has at heart your getting lost,

May seem as if it should have been a quarry –

Great monolithic knees the former town

Long since gave up pretense of keeping covered.

And there's a story in a book about it:

Besides the wear of iron wagon wheels

The ledges show lines ruled southeast-northwest,

The chisel work of an enormous Glacier

That braced his feet against the Arctic Pole.

You must not mind a certain coolness from him

Still said to haunt this side of Panther Mountain.

Nor need you mind the serial ordeal

Of being watched from forty cellar holes

As if by eye pairs out of forty firkins.

As for the woods' excitement over you

That sends light rustle rushes to their leaves,

Charge that to upstart inexperience.

Where were they all not twenty years ago?

They think too much of having shaded out

A few old pecker-fretted apple trees.

Make yourself up a cheering song of how

Someone's road home from work this once was,

Who may be just ahead of you on foot

Or creaking with a buggy load of grain.

The height of the adventure is the height

Of country where two village cultures faded

Into each other. Both of them are lost.

And if you're lost enough to find yourself

By now, pull in your ladder road behind you

And put a sign up CLOSED to all but me.

Then make yourself at home. The only field

Now left's no bigger than a harness gall.

First there's the children's house of make-believe,

Some shattered dishes underneath a pine,

The playthings in the playhouse of the children.

Weep for what little things could make them glad.

Then for the house that is no more a house,

But only a belilaced cellar hole,

Now slowly closing like a dent in dough.

This was no playhouse but a house in earnest.

Your destination and your destiny's

A brook that was the water of the house,

Cold as a spring as yet so near its source,

Too lofty and original to rage.

(We know the valley streams that when aroused

Will leave their tatters hung on barb and thorn.)

I have kept hidden in the instep arch

Of an old cedar at the waterside

A broken drinking goblet like the Grail

Under a spell so the wrong ones can't find it,

So can't get saved, as Saint Mark says they mustn't.

(I stole the goblet from the children's playhouse.)

Here are your waters and your watering place.

Drink and be whole again beyond confusion.

“Deciding to remember, and what to remember, is how we decide who we are,”

Good Thought

People go on personal attacks when they have lost the argument. WaPo blog rules tell people not to engage in personal attacks.

Again I quote only the Headlines from major news sources.

Re: Malleck's attempt at equating mass murders in the U.S. with hourly Muslim massacres is not fair. Although very unfortunate, there is no way that these U.S. mass murders have taken even a small portion of human life as compared to Islamic terror (3,000 Americans blown up in 5 minutes on 9/11 and numerous attempts caught before, including plan to crash 10 airliners over U.S. cities and a few dirty bomb attack attempts).

And btw, the US has and will continue to attract migrants (including Muslims) despite all these incidents of mass murder.

And how many Americans will migrate to Muslim lands -Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan.... looking for a better life?

paganplace. you are an american whose family has lived here for several gernerations? you don't have to answer publicly- but what was the chosen religion of your ancestors? if there's not a number of christians in your bloodlines, i'll be surprised.

please try to put some perspective on your words before you post..

and eboo patel says he is a devout muslim pluralist (an oxymoron) who is called to teach the glories of pluralism to all american pluralists.(what for? why?) he is either naive and confused or intentionally misrepresenting himself to some (but not all) bighearted, freethinking liberals..

Mohamed MALLECK, As a Muslim what do you know about Love? Your prophet never loved anyone. He had many wives but loved none; there is no evidence that he loved even one of the numerous women/slaves he owned/married. He did have a "favorite" wife though and that was his child bride Ayesha.
Valentines Day around the Muslim world is discouraged and frowned upon but that does not stop the young from sending flowers, cards and gifts. Valentines Day dedicated to a human emotion that Islam is alien to; thanks to the Kafir internet young Muslims can too indulge in this ancient emotion.

Arminius the genius writes; "Without compassion and dialog, we are doomed to never-ending conflict. Does that please the buzzards out there?"

This buzzard (Arif) is not pleased because Islam has no compassion and that is what we are pointing out, what compassion does a society (Islam) have when it stones to death an adulteress? Dialog? How does one have a dialog when the other party continuously lies? All we do is correct the liars in the dialog party.

Happy Jummah!

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I'd like to point out that Mr. Patel's 'own country' is America, and he's a better American than those who'd like to kick him out.

"It can't be US 'Cos US has Christians as majority..
The moment this majority becomes minority no form of stability can be expected.."

This is nonsense, really, Americans have often in history considered themselves a bunch of different minorities: the term 'white' is something of a more recent artificial construct, for instance.

If there were instability here over any such eventuality, it'd be because a Christian minority decided democracy wasn't good enough for them anymore, and betrayed it.

Which seems to be what happens bit by bit when people indulge that kind of paranoia, now that I think of it.

I get really tired of people shouting abuse at Mr. Patel on some notion, 'Cause you're Muslim, you're not pluralistic enough, be like us!'

Come on. Really. The man's trying to make things better.

Yep, Vinay!

And you wrote what you wrote today Friday 15 at 9:49 a.m. when every normal American of Canadian has already heard about the tragedy at Nortern Illnois University.

Other people are wondering what may be dysfunctional in America to produce these types of tragedies so often (even if it was an 'ethnic student' who was responsuble for the earlier massacre at Viginia Tech.

Try to be subdued. Try to reflect why the Mahajans ended up as they did and why the Thackerays are taking their internecine feuds to the extreme of unleashing terrorism against the migrant workers from Uttar Pradesh.

Then pray -- pray in Hindu prayers if you want, or in Islamic supplication for forgiveness, or in humanist meditation, whatever you want.

But remember that God or Nature has given man the ability to do so much good that, as Allama Muhabbat Iqbal said, before deciding on his destiny The Almighty himself turns to His creation and asks : "What is your wish?" -- Khoudi ko kar bouland itna, Ke har taqdeer se pehle, Khuda bande se khoud pouche, Bata, Teri raza kya hey?

The Same Almighty has given man the the freedom to blind himself into supreme arrogance, into hatred of the other, into fear of lowly creatures instead of respect for and in awe of (not fear for) The Almighty's injunctions.

Do as Allama Iqbal encourages you to do and you will be a good Hindu and open up the possibility of becoming a good Muslim too. Turn away, and be what you are.

If you are pleased with what you are, then you are right and I am wrong.

To the poster who called Vinay a Filthy Hindu and said "Shut up and go back to your hell hole country."

See how hard it is to identify your enemy. Is it Jew or Christian? Hindu or Buddhist? Pagan or Atheist? Or Muslims who dare to critique Islam?

Your cup of HATRED overfloweth..

Vinay-

I was going to post today's news of Muslims killing Muslims and you have beaten me to it.

Anyway- for those interested in the difference between living among a Christian majority and living among a Muslim majority: please compare todays news of 2 suicide bombers killing fellow believers as they worshiped Allah with "Stop the Hatred"'s news of the 3 Christian men who had planned to burn down a mosque in America.

The 3 men were quickly indentified, arrested and condemned by their community. An isolated event. As Vinay and I know- the global incidences of Muslims intentionally targeting and killing their own coreligionists are daily events. They aren't victims of an unjust world. They are blood thirsty killers preying on the most vulnerable- their fellow muslims who wish for a better life. "Stop the Hatred", Islam needs your help to get its act together..

"Two suicide bombers, one apparently armed with a grenade as well as an explosive vest, killed at least three people and wounded 17 as worshippers left a Shiite mosque after Friday prayers in the northwestern city of Tal Afar.

The explosions came on a day when the U.S. military and Iraqis were at odds over who was killed in a raid earlier this week, also in this country's restive north. The Americans and their Iraqi allies are pushing to take control of the region, where insurgent fighters are making a stand with their influence diminished in Baghdad and other areas.

The suicide bombers struck the Sheik Juwad mosque in Tal Afar, about 260 miles northwest of Baghdad.

The first bomber "threw a grenade on worshippers before he blew himself up," said the city's mayor, Maj. Gen. Najim Abdullah. A few minutes later, the second attacker ran toward people scrambling in the aftermath of the first explosion. "But police opened fire on him before he reached the people," the mayor said.

A police officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to release information, said the second attacker blew himself up without causing casualties.

The mayor said three people were killed and 17 wounded.

Earlier, the U.S. military said six insurgents were killed in raids in northern Iraq. But local police and an eyewitness said the dead included two women and four members of the local awakening council — the Sunni-dominated groups that abandoned al-Qaida last year and have allied with the Americans.

The differing accounts highlights the ongoing problems for the United States in trying to conduct a war in which the enemy is not always clear and tensions can arise easily.

The U.S. also faced complaints this month from its Sunni partners over the deaths of civilians in attacks both north and south of Baghdad.

The U.S. military said in a statement that it conducted raids in the Salahuddin province, north of Baghdad, late Wednesday and early Thursday. One target was an alleged al-Qaida leader in the area but it was unclear whether he had been killed or captured.

According to the military account released Thursday, troops at one spot returned fire from insurgents, killing two. They then called in air support, which killed another four militants. One civilian was wounded and evacuated for further care, while 15 suspected insurgents were detained. All those killed were "terrorists associated" with al-Qaida in Iraq, said Lt. Michael Street, a military spokesman.

An Iraqi police officer in the area, however, said Friday that a house belonging to a Sunni Arab and tribal leader was bombarded in a U.S. air strike, and that six family members died. The officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to release the information, said the bombing occurred about 33 miles southwest of Kirkuk and two of the victims were women.

A witness, who also declined to be identified for fear of retribution, told The Associated Press that among those taken into custody was a local tribal leader and head of the awakening council for the area. Funeral ceremonies for those killed were held Thursday, he said. He said five houses were bombed, in all."

To Eboo and all the other billion Muslims out there,

Once again:

Your problems go beyond the Bin Ladens, the Shiite Iranian crazies and the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

The problems are in the basic foundations of Islam itself as one can see from the following:

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies"

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. And Shiites think the same way about Sunnis.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

These are tough issues. Address them, correct them then ask again to be allowed into the civil world!!!!!

And accusing someone of spreading hate and lies does not work when these "someones" are simply listing the facts. If you have counter points about your beliefs then list them. Hiding behind imams and clerics blinded by 1400 years of brainwashing serves no purpose other than to secure a good living for said imams and clerics.

Shut up and go back to your hell hole country.

I too just quote the News Headlines from major Newspapers. Not sure why accused of hatred by Malleck. He should worry about hourly mass murders of innocents by Muslims all over the world: Latest in last 4 hours:

9 of family, including children, killed by Muslims in Iraq.

3 worshippers blown up in Mosque (that says how much Muslims respect their own places of worship) by two suicide bombers (Not a good strike rate today for Muslims).

Anonymous:

You say "Islam basically lays emphasis on establishing a just society free of all forms of oppression.” Hogwash and another hogwash. What is just about overtaxing , subjugating and humiliating the other? Merely saying so does not make it true. Check out this link
www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-pact-of-umar.htm
I am being accused by some on this post as spewing hate and also inciting violence. I am merely asking questions and exposing false claims, like the above one. Theirs is the victim’s mentality that blames everybody but themselves for their shortcomings. Self criticism is not in their dictionary and that is why while the rest of the world is moving forward, they alone are moving backward.

FS3-

"The Ottoman empire and the Muslim rule in Spain were known for their religious tolerance. They had at least as much as America had for its first several hundred years--as Eboo's piece adroitly points out."

Religious Tolerance is found in Freedom of Religion NOT in making all who do not believe as you subserviant to your faith. And Eboo Patel was so ADROIT- he failed to mention the Ottoman Caliphate when speaking of the desired Freedom of Religion..

"More importantly, what's wrong with submission?"

Maybe you should ask Theo van Gogh..

or

Simone Weil- “Oppression that cannot be overcome does not give rise to revolt but to submission"

Please understand clearly. It is against the American nature to willingly forfeit the God-given freedoms that they cherish. Americans will never willingly submit to the power of another. Americans are a Freedom Loving People, not just for ourselves but for all people who suffer under the yoke of oppression..

Mr Patel show me one country which has population which is multi-ethinic and mutil-cultural with no single majority and is totally democratic.. It can't be US 'Cos US has Christians as majority..
The moment this majority becomes minority no form of stability can be expected..

If you take a look at the solar system it's not even democratic and no chance of Equal dignity.. There is the mighty Sun with 9+ planets having certain degree of freedom but that too defined by the sun. The moment Sun looses its grip there would be no question of any Solar system.

The moment US looses its Christian majority there would be chaos..

Arminius writes: "Why is it that when a moderate, decent Moslem posts any essay whatsoever, that the knuckle-draggers, the bigots, the dain-bramaged, the demented vultures, all gather to spew their mindless hatred?"

So you like to abuse and curse you do not like? Mindless hatred? Care to show me a single post where I have spewed "mindless hatred"? Asking questions about the Quran, the word of Allah, is hatred? I have asked "stop the hatred" a question. If you know anything about Islam, why don't you help him and answer it.

Do you consider stoning of women a cruel and savage punishment or not? Do you consider cutting of limbs cruel or not? These punishments are regularly being carried out in Iran, Saudi Arabia and parts of Pakistan on a reqular basis because they are Allah's laws and part of Islamic Sharia. Tell me, Arminius, asking such a question is spew mindless hatred according to you? Or is stoning a woman, regardless of her crime, mindless hatred? Have you ever seen a woman being stoned? I have. Go see one and see her children lined up by the Islamic state to witness Allah's justice before you try to tell what is spewing mindless hatred.

Stop the Hatred writes:
"
When people like A. Kafir, Ibrahim Mahfouz, CNCL spread hate and lies against Muslims, the kind of things mentioned below happen:
TN: Mosque Arsonists Part of 'Christian Identity' Movement

Three men have been charged in the firebombing of a small mosque over the weekend, federal prosecutors said Tuesday."

The people who firebombed the small mosque are criminals and the FBI is treating them as such. When and Where have I ever spread hate and lies against Muslims. It is strange that no muslim ever answers any of the questions I have asked about Islam, but every muslim who posts here always tells us that the very asking of questions on Islam is spreading hate against muslims!!!

Stop the hate, please answer just one question, just one. Here it is for you so you do not even have to look it up:

Muslim women are stoned to death. Theives have their hands cut. Apostates are put to death. Crucifixion and cutting of limbs are punishments ordered by Allah. Your prophet actually carried them out. He did burn the eyes, cut off the limbs and denied the Ukl tribesmen water as they bled to death. This was punishment for murder. Death was not sufficient, but they had to be tortured to death. Allah orders torture of humans in the Quran. These are cruel and savage punishments. So tell me, Why is your Allah so savage, and your prophet so cruel and carries out such savage punishments?

Please answer and do not run and do not hide because no muslim ever answers. And tell the kafirs whether I lie in anything in the material I have written above. You are an educated person obviously. You should be able to answer. Answer, please.

To All Muslims,

Your problems go beyond the Bin Ladens, the Shiite Iranian crazies and the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

The problems are in the basic foundations of Islam itself as one can see from the following:

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies"

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. And Shiites think the same way about Sunnis.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

These are tough issues. Address them, correct them then ask again to be allowed into the civil world!!!!!

And accusing someone of spreading hate and lies does not work when these "someones" are simply listing the facts. If you have counter points about your beliefs then list them. Hiding behind imams and clerics blinded by 1400 years of brainwashing serves no purpose other than to secure a good living for said imams and clerics.

Let us rejoice in our heritage!

As we remember each others Liberty's

The first conflict between freedoms and mandates, Was the War in Heaven.

Our choice to be free declares the defence of that freedom not only for ourselves but for others, by exercizing tolerance, respect, and compassion to each other.

As Christ said "Love One Another".

I AM GREATFUL TO BE AN AMERICAN!

Vinay - Please go back to your country and read history before posting any comments here.

Stop the hatred:

Right you are. Hatred begets more hatred, which begets violence, which has a horrible tendency to become a never-ending cycle.

Why is it that when a moderate, decent Moslem posts any essay whatsoever, that the knuckle-draggers, the bigots, the dain-bramaged, the demented vultures, all gather to spew their mindless hatred?

Without compassion and dialog, we are doomed to never-ending conflict. Does that please the buzzards out there?

Arminius

When people like A. Kafir, Ibrahim Mahfouz, CNCL spread hate and lies against Muslims, the kind of things mentioned below happen:

TN: Mosque Arsonists Part of 'Christian Identity' Movement

Three men have been charged in the firebombing of a small mosque over the weekend, federal prosecutors said Tuesday.

Authorities said Eric Ian Baker, 32, Michael Corey Golden, 23, and Jonathan Edward Stone, 19, had planned for a week to burn down the Islamic Center of Columbia. . .

The men are accused of using gasoline, rags and empty beer bottles to set fire to the storefront mosque on Saturday. . .The federal complaint filed against the men says Stone and Baker told officers they were members of the Christian Identity movement, an extreme doctrine that claims white Europeans are God's chosen people.

The complaint also said Baker spray-painted swastikas on the walls of the building, including the phrase "White Power."

Thank you for a nice article as usual. Keep up the good work and may God bless you

Thank you for a nice article as usual. Keep up the good work and may God bless you

Jeremy:

The Ottoman empire and the Muslim rule in Spain were known for their religious tolerance. They had at least as much as America had for its first several hundred years--as Eboo's piece adroitly points out.

More importantly, what's wrong with submission?

Christianity calls for submission to God. Indeed, we are supposed to be slaves in our service to God and other human beings.

Part of this is humility and forgiveness. In order to truly love our brothers and sisters (remember because of Adam and Eve we are all related by blood) we must forgive AND forget (see Isaiah 43:25).

If we don't imitate Christ all the way it doesn't work.

It's incredible how much 'peace and love' the Americans who sign Concerned (Hi, there, Concerned! The shrinks let you off again, hey?), DONTTYPE LIES, Vinay, Dubrack, Jeremy, A. Kafir, Ibrahim Mahfouz, etc. shower on the other WAPO On Faith commentators on this Valentine's day.

None of them seems to have commented on Sami Moubayed's comment on 'love'.

“We desire therefore in this case not to judge least we be judged, neither to condemn least we be condemned, but rather let every man stand and fall to his own master.”

The New Testament source:

Luke 6:37- "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned."

Romans 14:4- Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

CREDO- America is founded on Judeo-Christian legal codes and moral values. There is no Islamic link to America. In fact, Islam is opposed to Judeo-Christian beliefs. Islam is based on warring and submission of all things to "Allah" and "Islamic Law". The word "Islam" means "submission". There has never been an Islamic nation that did not diminish and suppress even its own people.

Radical Muslims have not learned the old American rule that your freedom ends at the end of my nose. I believe that 99% of all Americans would accept any civilized and competent Muslim as a next door neighbor or a next cubicle co-worker. It would be nice if they were friendly but the constitution does not require that.

What Americans will not accept is ANYONE trying to destroy our country and culture.

So if Muslim Americans don't want to be Americans, don't want to reclaim their mosques, don't want to reclaim the ideology of their children we would be happy to deport them back to where they came from. If they do want to live like Americans then join us defending our country and constitution.

Radical Muslims have not learned the old American rule that your freedom ends at the end of my nose. I believe that 99% of all Americans would accept any civilized and competent Muslim as a next door neighbor or a next cubicle co-worker. It would be nice if they were friendly but the constitution does not require that.

What Americans will not accept is ANYONE trying to destroy our country and culture.

So if Muslim Americans don't want to be Americans, don't want to reclaim their mosques, don't want to reclaim the ideology of their children we would be happy to deport them back to where they came from. If they do want to live like Americans then join us defending our country and constitution.

Eboo,

Equal dignity and mutual loyalty ... yes, but not at the cost of freedom and liberty. Dignity and loyalty is never bestowed but earned. The freedom to practice your religion, the freedom to examine and question any religion or any idea, the liberty to think and talk freely. You give the example of your country of Origin, India ... there the freedom to speak has been abridged by Islam. One cannot write or say anything that "hurts the feelings of muslims". There the requirement is not put upon those who have sensitive feelings to deal with it or participate in the market of free and open exchange of ideas but to muzzel free thinking people. And the same is true for South Africa. Europe is being cowed into giving up the right to speak freely. And many of the Muslim Brotherhood front organizations in USA are attempting to bring about the demise of freedom to speak and think here as well, all in the name of "equal dignity". And I sure hope that you appreciate that without freedom and liberty, dignity and loyalty do not add up to a handful of rotting beans.

Radical Muslims have not learned the old American rule that your freedom ends at the end of my nose. I believe that 99% of all Americans would accept any civilized and competent Muslim as a next door neighbor or a next cubicle co-worker. It would be nice if they were friendly but the constitution does not require that.

What Americans will not accept is ANYONE trying to destroy our country and culture.

So if Muslim Americans don't want to be Americans, don't want to reclaim their mosques, don't want to reclaim the ideology of their children we would be happy to deport them back to where they came from. If they do want to live like Americans then join us defending our country and constitution.

Eboo:

I agree that America is an example for mankind, designed by God, to demonstrate that the diverse family of man (and woman) can live as one.

However, we (along with our European brethren) are unique in this respect.

India, although stable in terms of an elected representative government, is not tolerant. Discrimination against Muslims, untouchables, women, and Christians (just to name a few) is rampant.

Likewise, South Africa has vast economic disparities, rampant violent crime and deep divisions remaining from the apartheid era that are as of yet unresolved.

To me, the events leading up to the Flushing Remonstrance are more remarkable than the result. Thank God cooler heads prevailed, but come on; torturing a peace loving Quaker? This just shows that from the beginning there were bigoted Christian hypocrites in this country.

Still, the fact remains: modern America is one of the few societies in world history where a remarkably diverse group has lived together with exceptional equality.

Why?

I believe that it's the comforting indwelling Holy Spirit that the vast Christian population here has as a blessing from God.

Many are quick to point out the shortcomings of Christians currently and throughout history. Yet, America is unique among all Christian developed nations in it's serious embrace of Jesus Christ. It wasn't an easy growth process.

It's this faith that will ultimately heal the world's ethnic and cultural divisions. Laws alone do not change hearts.

halozcel:
I totally agree with you. My disagreements with Mr. Patel's writings generally have a basis on the premise that the world would go around easier if we'd all just celebrate each others' religions more.

But I have to give him credit for making the attempt at a liberal theology, even if he does sometimes aleniate us non-believing types.

There is only ONE Civilization,not civilizations.
*The clash of Civilizations* is the wrong concept.
The Civilization is based on Human Rights,Democracy,Contemporary Values and Rationality(two plus two makes four).For example,The Cult is not civilization,it is a *Tradition*
The Cult rejects Human Rights,but advocates *submission*
The Cult refuses Democracy,but defences Subjugation and Brainwashing.
The Cult precludes Contemporary Values and Rationality,but says *two equals one*

To me,the clash between Civilization and Cult(s) is inevitable.The empty words and sophistry unfortunately can not be solution.I hope,I am mistaken.

Eboo, Eboo, Eboo,

The key word is "civil-ization". When Muslims like yourself finally admit to and correct the many flaws in Islam, then and only then will Islam become a civil religion worthy of becoming a member of the civilized world.

So-called *muslim spain* was a Myth,was a Palaver.Muslim Spain was 711-1130(only 400 years).Between 1130-1492 was the period of struggle and war,not peace.
Do you know *Alcazar* ?
Alcazar means Spanish castle,Palace and Fortress versus muslim looting and incursions.If muslims governed Spain wery well,why Spanish poeple had built those Alcazars ?

Anonymous,
Could you show any multi-culturel and multi-religious islamic country ?
What you write *justice* means *Sharia law*,not contemporary justice and Human Rights.

Jeff P,
*Mutual loyality* should be based on Human Rights and Rationality,not on *stone age mentality* and sugjugation.

WE THANK ALLAH FOR SENDING US MOSES AND TORAH[OLD TESTAMENT]

WE THANK ALLAH FOR SENDING US JESUS AND BIBLE[NEW TESTAMENT]

WE THANK ALLAH FOR SENDING US MOHAMMED AND QURAN[LAST TESTAMENT]

Eboo Patel- This country you claim as your own (as the people who settled and founded it) is rooted and founded in the Christian faith.

Your chosen example-the Flushing Remonstrance:

“We desire therefore in this case not to judge least we be judged, neither to condemn least we be condemned, but rather let every man stand and fall to his own master.”

The New Testament source:

Luke 6:37- "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned."

Romans 14:4- Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

AMERICAN VALUES ARE IN CONSISTENT WITH THE TEACHINGS OF QURAN.
O Mankind, God created you into nations and tribes so that you may get to know each other" -- Holy Qur'an
In Islamic system of morality, as in some other religions too, it is establishment of a moral society that is very fundamental. The emphasis of Islamic teachings is not personal salvation but establishment of a society that is just and free of zulm (oppression). Here we will like to deal with this aspect of Islamic ethic in greater detail, as it is most central to Islam. The Qur'an lays great emphasis on 'adl (justice). It is the central value in the Islamic ethic. The Qur'an says that "Be just; it is closest to being pious." (5:8). Thus in Islam there is no concept of piety without being just. The opposite of 'adl' is 'zulm' (oppression). Zulm is derived from the root z.l.m. that has several shades of meaning i.e. to do wrong, injustice, darkness, iniquity, oppression etc. The Qur'an often uses it in the sense of wrong doing and oppression.

Islam basically lays emphasis on establishing a just society free of all forms of oppression. The Prophet also says that a society can live with unbelief (kufr) but not with oppression (zulm). Thus Islamic ethic conceives of a society which will be free of all forms of exploitation and oppression. Islam basically is a non-violent religion. It does not approve of violence at all. The most basic attribute of Allah is mercy and compassion of which we will talk more little later. But Islam approves of violence (in a highly controlled sense, of course) only to remove zulm, the structures of oppression.. Thus the Qur'an says, "And how could you refuse to fight in the cause of Allah and of the utterly helpless men and women and children who are crying, "O our Sustainer! Lead us forth (to freedom) out of this land whose people are oppressors, and raise for us, out of Thy grace, a protector, and raise for us, out of Thy grace, one who will bring us succour!". (4:75)

As for preaching of religion it has to be done only through 'goodly exhortation and wisdom' (16:125). There is no question of use of violence or that purpose. If some one does that it is against the Divine injunction. It is zulm.
The Qur'an says that no human life can be taken except in keeping with law. Thus we find in the Qur'an that "whoever kills a person, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he had killed entire humanity. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved lives of all men." (5:32) The Qur'an, it will be seen is against violence against humanity
On moral level the Qur'an deals with this issue in the verse 3:133. The verse reads, "Those who spend in ease as well as in adversity and those who restrain (their) anger and pardon men. And Allah loves doers of good (to others).

"A group of citizens rose up against that law, issuing a petition that became known as the Flushing Remonstrance, which stated: “We desire therefore in this case not to judge least we be judged, neither to condemn least we be condemned, but rather let every man stand and fall to his own master.”

Where is this group of citizens rising up in Afghanistan where people are sentenced to death for criticizing your Faith? What are you doing in America when your coreligionists are in such need in nations of your Faith?

What is it you intend to teach Americans about you beloved Faith? Please be honest because I agree with your liberal friend- selling Islam as the Religion of Peace to anyone who can read the news is a fool's venture.

You know we are American and we tend to question and criticise everything. Be brave and answer us: Why are you teaching pluralism in America instead of Islamic nations who share your Faith? Why don't you travel there and share your great knowledge in their mosques? What is the purpose of your postings here?

Mr. Pattel:
Correction;
I stated in my post of Feb.14,at 12:13PM the following

"Ibrahim Hooper of CAIR (Council of American Islamic Relations) openly advocates replacing the US Constitution with the Muslim Sharia Law."

It was Ahmed Omar, the founder of CAIR, who did the advocating as shown below;

(The 1998 Argus article, also published in the sister San Ramon Valley Herald, paraphrased Ahmad saying: "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant," and, "The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.)
I apologize for the inadvertant error.

Ibrahim Mahfouz:
Thank you.

DontTypeLies:
what an appalling thing to say to another human being. Good gosh I hope my son never begins to have that mindset. Eboo writes things I don't agree with either, but sheesh.

"The world needs an example of a nation where people from different backgrounds live together in equal dignity and mutual loyalty."

What's wrong with that sentiment? To me that defines a premise of secular humanism.

DontTypeLies:So who appointed u as a spokesman for all Americans? U have no shame and it would help if u would shut up.

Arab Muslim Spain was a tolerant multi-cultural,multi-ethinc and multi-religious society,in which Muslims,christains and Jews lived in peace, prosperity which translted itself into such a productive and unique human synergy that produced the reniassance and the indurtrial revolution in Europe.

Muslim Spain which endured from 711-1492 AD and pre-dates the new Multi-cultural/multi-ethnic and multi-religious USA,is an exapmle to be emulated in our modern world. Xenophobia and extreme religious and ethinc haterd,namely the Catholic Church,destroyed that unique experience of Muslim Spain by the infamous and horrendous Inquisition against Muslims and Jews.

The experience of Muslim Spain negates all togther the myth of the so called clash of civilization and teahes all of us a model of Allaince of Civlization:no civilization is an island unto itself.

Ebo, your liberal friend-not so liberal-will be well-advised to do some serious reading on Muslim spain.

Latest peace of Islam:(last 14 hours)

Thousands in Lebanon march in the funeral of a brutal Islamic terrorist.

Beheadings and bombings continue in Thailand, Kashmir and elsewhere in Muslim lands.

Major terror plot stopped by Fillipino cops to kill the leader and blow up foreign embassies...

Religion of Peace?? Or even a religion?

Mr. Patel.

Leave Islam or leave the US. You are not trusted and most americans do not want muslims here.

Great article. It's refreshing to read from someone who really appreciates and understands what America is all about. Too many of us have become complacent and take for granted the peace and prosperity we experience.

Someone recently offered this insightful analysis of religion: The major religions seem to be composed of two types of world views - the view that religion can be transcendent, all encompassing and generally accepting of others; or religion can be tribal, exclusionary and not generally accepting of others.

To the extent that you see your faith as a transcendent value, you'll tend to practice love and forgiveness of others. This applies to people or to nation states.

The tribal view sees religion as a 'ticket' or pass to an exclusive, highly discriminatory private club. Those not in the club are deemed less worthy and, in the case of Islamic extremism, to be dealt with harshly.

Mr. Patel:
You say "The world needs an example of a nation where people from different backgrounds live together in equal dignity and mutual loyalty. That is our heritage and our promise and our gift to the world this century.”

I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. I see people like you and me who escaped from their failed societies with their failed cultures and autocratic dictatorships and emigrated to the progressive societies of the West. Nothing wrong with that except some of us show their gratitude by calling for the imposition of philosophy in our new countries that got our former societies to where they are in the first place. Ibrahim Hooper of CAIR (Council of American Islamic Relations) openly advocates replacing the US Constitution with the Muslim Sharia Law. If he is so enamored by the Sharia why did he not stay where it is practiced? He is not alone. Visit any mosque in this land and most likely you will hear the same exhortation. The main theme of most of the Friday sermons in the Mosques I had visited were intolerance and hate toward the other. Not only against Christians who they label as pigs and who went astray or the Jews who are monkeys and accursed by Allah, but everyone else who do not follow their interpretations of the Quran and Sunna. This is the cancer that if not confronted sooner than later would metastasize, tear us apart and push us back into the Stone Age. I traveled ten thousand miles to escape this scourge and don’t want to wake up one morning to find it again on my doorsteps.

Eboo, Eboo, Eboo,

The key word is "civil-ization". When Muslims like yourself finally admit to and correct the many flaws in Islam, then and only then will Islam become a civil religion worthy of becoming a member of the civilized world.

Mr. Patel

I can only applaud your optimism and your faith in America. Although I am myself Canadian, I share your faith in America, but NOT ONLY America. Many countries, from Canada to India to Argentina to Malaysia to small islands like Fiji and Mauritius are multicultural and highly tolerant and function like democracies.

I agree with you when you quote poetry. But, hard-nosed behavioural scientists (sociologists, politicians, economists, psychologists) have, following the relatively antiquted Cournot but also the more recent seminal works of Kenneth Arrow, John Rawls, Stephen Brams and the Canadian Charles Taylor, have investigated the desirable properties of developing 'collective' values from 'individual preferences' in ways much more discerning and universal that that implicit in your quote : "We desire therefore IN THIS CASE this case not to judge least we be judged, neither to condemn least we be condemned, but rather let every man stand and fall to his own master" (Capitals added by me)

For, like it or not, an orderly society HAS to judge deviations from accepted norms. How do we get to accepted norms? Sharia or Roman/Napoleonic Law or English Common Law or other systems? The now-retired American Superior Court Judge, Sandra Day O'Connor, has a lot more to contribute about that ideal that is constructive than the more 'authoritative' Judge Scalia.

I write 'constructive' and you would be entitled to ask: what are the attributes of a 'constructive' contribution to the development of a social norm? Kenneth Arrow set out six of them, if I recall my "Impossibility Theorem" well. And he showed that even these six minimum attributes are self-contradictory if one wants the 'collective' aggregation of individual preferences into a coherent social ordering to be universally applicable. John Rawls investigated other attributes and has developed his own theory of justice which has now attained the status of cult following. But then there are the 'communitarian' group, exemplified by Charles Taylor, among others, who have developed the theme from a multiculturalist viewpoint. Then there is Ted Honderich's 'consequentialist' appraoch to justice and morality, which assesses collective values from the real impact it has on the intended beneficiaries or the governed.

To sum up, Mr. Patel. Yes, America is a great 'counter-clash example, but is NOT THE ONLY ONE. And, it could learn from the practice that Canada has developed, to its great advantage compared to any other country on earth, in a number of areas of 'communitarian savoir vivre'.

Mr Patel,
You consistently write thoughtful essays, and are often taken to task for some of your assertions. Some of these respondants have also written thoughtful letters either in support or in opposition to some of your thoughts. I have come to respect both your perspective and that of your more thoughtful respondants. As for todays' essay, this represents some of your most thoughtful work. Implied in its' thesis is a responsibility for each American to live up to the promise of plurality and respect for one another, especially those who are different from ourselves. This is no small task. Our own history is filled with both successes and failures in this regard. Let us all renew our efforts to manifest the better angels of our nature, and not descend to the lowest common denominator of prejudgement, intolerance, and hatred.

"Equal dignity and mutual loyalty" drives a lot of American communities, and the evolution and apotheosis of MLK, Junior, and the current political slate, which includes the most diverse possibilities for a Pres-VP combo in our history, prove the point. Fred in Houston

"At the close of the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia on September 18, 1787, a Mrs. Powel anxiously awaited the results, and as Benjamin Franklin emerged from the long task now finished, asked him directly: "Well Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?" "A republic if you can keep it" responded Franklin."

That's what's worth fighting for, and what has been deteriorating over the last several years of Republican rule. Recently we have a 49-0 Republican approval regarding granting the executive branch powers of wiretapping phone conversations and examining e-mails of anyone in the country, without warrant. Not enough Democrats in agreement to override this legislation. Big Brother, anyone?

Regarding how the US is a "gift to the world," I'm becoming more and more skeptical about this premise. It's home, and I love it, but show me the evidence.

"The world needs an example of a nation where people from different backgrounds live together in equal dignity and mutual loyalty"

excuse the pun, but where the hell is that?

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>))))2)0)0)8))))) "NO-SHARIA!"
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