Dear Eboo

Where do I start? Atrocities commited on Hindus for centuries or the the post Independance farce our constitution has become now. You are right ahimsa and tolerance are some of the priniples we get taught and nothing wrong with these. However these are only can be practiced if there is reciprocal respect from others specialy Muslims. Have you not gone through recent news. The enemy now lies with in. it is the Indian muslims who are primed to be the future Jihadis. India for them is unfinished buisiness that Islaminization of India. Indeed Gita tells us about dharma and advocates non voilance however it also tells that when you become opressed do not turn the other cheek. Let me direct your attention to section 29 and 30 of Indian constitution.MOniorities have right to run their institutions as they feel fit to run but hindu majority is not. Don't you find it bit strange that a hindu oraganisation like Ramakrishna mission saught to be treated as non hindu org because of fear of state intervention. Or DAV college Jalandher saught to do the same. I am all for secular India if you could make all muslims in India stand up and annouce that they will put country before religion (perhaps a peep in Zakir Naik wegsite will ilicit my point) Would you want your mother sister or wife to follow Sharia? That is what muslims want. I have nothing against Islam or muslims as long as they keep it their affair.

Mischka:
At the following link
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2008/01/murder_on_the_subcontinent/all_comments.html

you wrote (January 28, 2008 5:45 pm) :
"
NOTE TO ALL READERS - PLEASE MAKE SURE TO LOOK UP ALL REFERENCES KAFIR MAKES ON THESE BLOGS.
HE LIES ABOUT EVERYTHING HE POSTS AND NOT A SINGLE THING HE SAYS HAS AN IOTA OF TRUTH IN IT.
***DO NOT TAKE HIS WORD AS PROOF - PLEASE LOOK IT UP AND MAKE SURE TO UNDERSTAND THE TRANSLATION AS WELL***
Kafir's problem - he is a bigot who needs a reality check.
"
And then a bit later you wrote:
"This fight is not even a fair one because Im holding the Qur'an and you dont even have the truth to back you up. You feel so threatened by Islam that you resort to lying to help yourself??? What a disgusting pig!

You doctor verses and pretend to be honest - I used to feel sorry for you but now I feel that if someone can be SO purely evil - then they deserve to stay that way. Why should a person like Kafir be helped? He is not sick - he is EVIL.
"

I have posted the links to all the references and you can look them up as well as anyone else. I have answered you, and it would be nice if you tried to answer the questions there instead of yeling and calling me a bigot. Maybe you can even
get Eboo to help you answer the questions I have asked.

I agree with a lot that Dr. Jasser writes.

However, he ends it with:
"We have to remember the ideas America stands for, that there are millions of Muslims who came here because of those ideas, and if we tell them that Islam is the problem, we will not win the war."

This does not necessarily follow from anything he writes above it. What if Islam is the problem? He never address or discusses whether Islam is or is not the problem. He mentions a lot of the issues that the muslims have within themselves. He want to de-ummatize for instance. Why? Is that a problem with Islam or with the muslims? There are many other examples where Dr. Jasser needs to use his obvious great intellect to see how he can actually reform Islam and reform the muslim tradition. We should help Dr. Jasser but not at the cost of educating ourselves about Islam. We need to protect the absolute rights to free speech. Freedom to say and express that Islam is the problem and the freedom to discuss and argue that openly.

Americanism vs. Islamism: A personal perspective
Terrorism is simply a means to an end. The only way to defeat a tactic is either to defeat the source completely or to take away the dreams of the enablers.

Monday, January 28, 2008
By Zuhdi Jasser

My venturing into public discussions on the intersection between religion and politics is not something that I chose, but rather something I felt obliged to do after 9/11. Prior to then, I’d been dealing with many of the pathologies within the Muslim community, but as I began to see who was emerging as “spokespersons” for my faith after 9/11, I had to do something; hence the formation of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy.

More than six years after 9/11, we’re starting to figure out that terrorism is just a tactic. The tactic has a goal, a mission, and a dream. Terrorism is simply a means to an end. The only way to defeat a tactic is either to defeat the source completely or to take away the dreams of the enablers. Those dreams, when they are wedded to religion, become the biggest liability for those of us who are embarrassed even talking about religion and politics. What greater incendiary mechanism could there be to manipulate Western society than to cover a fascistic dream in a faith that is a spiritual path for over a billion people? And what better way to insulate itself from criticism than to cover itself in a spiritual guise?

Non-Muslim and Muslim alike, Americans, guided by the Constitution and First Amendment, have always been protective of our faith. One of my heroes growing up was Thomas Jefferson. The Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom, drafted by Thomas Jefferson, engrained in our society a respect for the free practice of religion. Jefferson said, “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” This idea that a person’s relationship with God is his or her own and not the role of government to impose upon citizens is one of the main quarrels that the Islamists and those who ideologically feed the terrorists have with the West.

Unfortunately, many Americans have forgotten that America was founded by people who were escaping religious persecution. America is not just a flag, it’s not just our media, MTV, rock and roll, or blue jeans. It’s an idea of religious and political freedom and the freedom to be and achieve what you want, with equal access to everyone. That access is not dictated by wealth, religion, or any other immutable characteristic. That is what the Islamists fear the most.

“Islamist” does not necessarily mean only terrorists, and the simple condemnation of terror does not make someone necessarily compatible with American and Western ideals. Condemning terror—the targeting of women, children, noncombatants and non-uniformed people for the achievement of political ends—simply brings one to the table of humanity.

The root cause of terrorism is the dreams of the political Islamic state, and we need to understand what that state is. It can be either the fascistic state that believes in the totalitarian or authoritarian imposition of Islamic law throughout society or the democratic Islamic state, which believes in parliaments, elections, and discourse and debate. These two different types of government share the identification of being an Islamic state because the source of law is the same: the Quran and the tradition, or sunnah, of the Prophet.

The sunnah guide my personal life—my last will and testament, my marriage, our marital contract. But that’s something we chose in our own home. To transfer that into government gives clerics exclusive access to law, legislation, and public and legal discourse. If non-clerics want to gain access, they have to become schooled in sharia law. As important as the West’s initiative to democratize the Middle East is, we’re missing the boat if we think we’re going to solve the problems in the Middle East by simply getting those countries to have elections and parliaments. We need to bring forth the ideas of freedom, liberty, and respect for individuals, sometimes over the community. That last principle is one that came in the West’s Enlightenment.

Until Muslims understand that their faith is not threatened by the Enlightenment and respect for the individual, we cannot win this war.

Sometimes when we present these ideas, we present them behind the American flag. But being patriotic doesn’t necessarily mean that someone is looking out for the best interests of freedom and liberty in America. Islamic organizations that purport to represent Muslims may have a vision for America that simply takes our flag and adds a little crescent, turning it into an Islamic state. Some in the Muslim community may call this fear-mongering or exaggeration, but that Islamist community should not be allowed to circle the wagons and rally themselves behind victimization. Rather, they should be engaged on these ideas of the role of religious law in public life. For while the vast majority of Muslims have assimilated and reformed their own practices, by virtue of the way that they live in America, ideologically they have often been given the freedom but not the means, the task, and the challenge to understand what it is that they are living day to day.

As a result, most of the texts on Islamic bookshelves are pre-14th century. Most of the Islamic texts on law, penal codes, civil codes, etc., are based on 14th century law at best—it could be 11th or 12th century. Hence the corporal punishment, the severing of hands for theft, the stoning of women for violation of marital laws, that is still part of Saudi law. This to Westerners is barbaric, but the religious law hasn’t been reformed or advanced to bring it into the 21st century.

One of the primary problems with Islamic reformation issues is the clerical leadership and the imams. Most Muslim families would be dismayed if their son or daughter wanted to study to become a cleric or imam, which is not of the same value to a family as studying medicine, law, or engineering. So the hold upon religious, theological discussion of jurisprudence in faith has been given over to less than the intellectuals in society.

My own family escaped Syria to come to America for ideological, not economic, reasons. After the French pulled out in 1946, my grandfather had tried to be part of the democratization of Syria, which did have democracy for a few years. Then unfortunately, as we saw in many Middle Eastern countries, coup after coup occurred from the early 1950s until finally the last military coup led by the Baathists which ultimately brought Hafez al-Assad to power around 1970. The secular dictatorships are deeply wedded to radical Islam and the Islamist threat in the world. They may seem to be diametrically opposed entities, but the evolution and history of radical Islamist or theocratic movements has been an equal and opposite reaction to the dictatorships in the Middle East—- whether they are the monarchy in Saudi Arabia and the Wahhabis who came out of them, or the dictatorships in Egypt and Syria, for the Muslim Brotherhood, which also fed Hamas in Israel. This is what happened in Iran, with the Shah initially in power, which empowered the radical Islamist movement. All of this is very symmetrical, and that’s why we will not be able to bring Islam into modernity without the removal of many of these governments.

We do not have to do this militarily. We changed Eastern Europe without invading any of those countries and defeated communism without invading Russia. But we need to turn our attention to the dissidents, to those who believe in freedom and liberty, not only democracy. If we align ourselves only with democratic movements, we may end up ushering in parliaments based on Quranic law and facilitating the establishment of Islamic states that may in the short term be more peaceful to us from a strategic standpoint, but in the long term could end up dividing the world into a triangular fashion of China, Islamic states, and the secular Western states.

The conflict is over the correct source of law—Is it the Constitution and natural law or sharia; the lay individual or the clerics, or the individual vs. tribalism or Muslim collectivism?

I’ve tried to go to prayer every Friday, I attend the Ramadan holiday prayers and have probably 70-80 percent of the time found mosques that were not solely about spirituality or about teaching children morality and character, integrity, service, and humility, but rather about politics—domestic and foreign policy, issues that I believe have nothing to do with my relationship with God but rather concern things on this earth. My response in many of the debates I’ve tried to no avail to have with imams is to tell them that if God wanted us to discuss these things, the Quran would have been filled with injunctions about how to run government. But there’s nothing in the Quran about how we should run government. Yet they will take passages that do talk about war, for example, and transpose them out of context, which I believe is about history far more than it is about religion.

Back to my story. Once in the early 1990s, on leave from the military, I went to an Islamic medical association meeting. One of the only other Muslim medical officers was the head of endocrinology at Bethesda. He and I were going to present a paper on hormonal regulation and some endocrine issues at the Islamic Medical Association, which was being held in conjunction with the Islamic Society of North America annual conference. I had never been to a meeting of ISNA, the largest Muslim organization in America. Its annual meetings are attended by 15,000-30,000 Muslim activists. The keynote address was given by Siraj Wahhaj, Imam of Al-Taqwa Mosque in Brooklyn, New York, who was originally with the Nation of Islam and then converted to Sunni Islam. I was pulled into listening to this magnetic speaker, until he began talking about the constitution. He picked up the Quran and said “You know, I was on an airplane and imagine, a Jewish passenger sitting next to me asked me about the Quran I was reading—if Muslims became a majority in America, would we replace the U.S. constitution with the Quran.” He laughed and said, “Can you imagine someone wondering if a document made by humans would be superior to a document made by God?”

I got lightheaded, I sat down, and after he was done I went to the Q-and-A microphone and said, “I’m not sure if you understand American law, but you have just violated the Sedition Act as I understand it. You’re free to disagree with foreign and domestic policy, but you cannot talk about the overthrow of the U.S. constitution and its replacement by another document.” I encouraged other military personnel in the audience to leave, because they were violating their oath to this country. It was in some ways traumatic for me. I had just joined the Navy. But yet they felt that I was overreacting. I feel that it is not overreaction. There are certain things we have to know as a community and as a nation that take priority over other things.

A German judge recently gave a man the right to beat his wife because the husband maintained that it was out of his religious law that he is allowed to practice domestic abuse on his wife. That’s not the Islam I was taught, but if we become a society where once someone raises the flag of religion we stop critiquing it and stop holding him accountable to values that we share as a community, that is the day we begin down the slope of defeat.

As much as some Muslims could say I am mischaracterizing Islam or am too harsh, I think it is important to have the debate. Five years after the ISNA meeting, I met my wife and her family in Cleveland and told them that story. They said “We were there! We heard you say that.” Yet nobody did anything. Nobody stood up and agreed with me, nobody said “We may have a problem.” That same imam then became an alleged unindicted coconspirator in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and later, in 1995, testified in defense of Omar Abdel-Rahman.

There’s a tribal mentality; somehow individuals want to create and advance the ideas of the tribal leaders. The Islamic community has reverted back to pre-Islamic Arabia, to a tribalism that has lost its values. Any time you take an idea in which the ends justify the means, it is basically corruption. Alija Izetbegovic, the president of Bosnia-Herzegovina, said that he was never more Muslim than when he was in solitary confinement under Marshal Tito for 15 years. A Muslim can hear that and think “My rights and freedoms in society are not related to my being Muslim. I have more time to sit and talk to God and be closer to God when I have absolutely no rights and I’m sitting in solitary confinement. Therefore my religion and my piety are unrelated to this earth.”

Actually, the idea that we should be selling—not on the U.S. station Al Hurrah, which actually gets very low ratings in Iraq, but on Al Jazeera, on Syrian TV—is that the way for individuals to be closest to God is to live in freedom. When you live in an environment where people around you are not fasting in Ramadan, where they are not praying five times a day, where I choose to separate from the group and go pray on my own, not in the middle of a gate at the airport demanding for everyone to see me but actually on my own, that actually is more of a demonstration to the God of Abraham, that I’m choosing to do that of my own free will. Thus, the day of judgment, if you believe in a day of reckoning, has more meaning to God. That is to me the message of our founding fathers. The most pious nations and individuals are those who can freely decide whether to act or to practice their faith without coercion from government.

Muslims will say, this is ridiculous, you don’t want religion to inspire what we do? There’s this equivalency where they then give me ten other religious lobbies in America that supposedly mix religion and politics. I’ll say that there’s absolutely no comparison, there’s no moral equivalency between religiously inspired political groups and Islamist groups that have a constructive law as a goal— the nucleus of which is completely different from one based on a human document. The key is that we hold Muslims accountable to what they view the concept of law would be if they became a majority. One finds few or no Christian, Buddhist or Hindu groups who want to bring, e.g., canon law or religious jurisprudence into American jurisprudence. Yet they may be inspired and empowered by their faith, which is very different.

I would then remember de Tocqueville, who said that military dictatorships do not need God, but democracies and lands based on freedom do. Because as you know, in the Middle East, and we see this in Iraq, when countries have lost their values after decades of dictatorship and become corrupt, there’s such a loss of values that corruption has guided and taken over that society making freedom difficult to take hold.

As a result, you have wanton destruction and lawlessness. The only thing that would control that society is some form of martial law. So you need to transition states from oppression to freedom, but that transition needs to be inculcated with values.

At the end of the day, if we believe that those values they’re going to use to drive their ideas are going to be based on morality, that morality has to come from somewhere. If it’s not going to come from Islam, then we’re going to have to convert over 1 billion people to another faith, and that’s not going to work. So that source of values is going to have to be their faith of Islam, which we as Muslims believe is a message from the God of Abraham to Muslims. But that message has to be put in a way that’s consistent with modernity and pluralism.

What can we do as a Western society within our community and what can we do, especially for non-Muslims and other organizations, to help this process along and move it along faster than the five hundred years of stagnancy that we’ve been under?

First, in our own societies, we need to be cautious about permitting parallel societies, parallel courts such as sharia courts where Muslims are given the “freedom” to set up their own legal court system. They would become an incubator for radical Islamism. Canada tried this, and the most vocal voice against sharia courts were Muslim women, even though they were told by the non-Muslims in Canada that “You don’t have to, it’s voluntary.” Once you get swept into this, it’s like fighting domestic violence in our own country. We must prevent the establishment of institutions that cater to that and allow the incubation.

Second, we see many examples like the taxicab drivers in Minneapolis who wanted to be separate from the society, not to carry people who were carrying alcohol, to impose their values on the passengers they picked up. Some may say that making a lot out of these issues is an exaggeration—“you need to lighten up.” But every opportunity I have to highlight examples, of what in medicine we would call pathegnemonic symptoms, of the pathology of Islamism, I will exploit that. Because they are doing the same thing. They are exploiting victimization issues and politics to use what we have now been calling law-fare to get us distracted, to sue individuals who are the biggest threat to their ideas. So that we’re all so busy fighting lawsuits such as the flying imams case (the six imams who filed suit against U.S. Airways in March 2007 for having been removed from a flight in November 2006 after behavior that many have called provocative) to distract us, to continue to divide society between Muslim and non-Muslim and to allow the continued inculcation of this Islamist ideology via Muslim collectivism.

A good example is Carver Elementary School in San Diego, which because of the third of its students who are Muslim wanted to move the lunchtime from 12:30 to 1:30 pm so that they could have their prayers. I wrote a column and on CNN talked about the fact that many of us grew up in public elementary schools praying and doing our own practices of faith without asking for the entire school to change its time schedule. You can step away during a break and practice your faith. Certainly I would not want schools to prevent Muslims from praying, they should be given the space to pray if they need it. Because that’s a personal faith practice. But once that personal faith practice crosses the line into society and starts changing the schedule of the general society or changing the cost to general society to the taxpayers, as we saw with the footbath incidents where the University of Michigan was paying $30,000 to install footbaths, that crosses the line of the founding principles of America. I don’t have a problem with private funding for that if they need it, fine. But not from the taxpayers. For once it comes from the taxpayers, then they should have allotted $30,000 for every other faith group in that university at the same time.

When I was growing up in the 1970s, I don’t remember Muslims asking for any of these things. It has almost become a tool of self-segregation and separating Muslims from non-Muslims so that they can continue this issue of minority politics. It’s becoming very potent and we have allowed it to take over the debate. It soaks up the bandwidth of American attention instead of allowing us to fight for freedom.

Islamic organizations today have only come to notoriety because of America’s fear of terrorism. If terrorism disappeared tomorrow, nobody would care about footbaths, schedules in schools, etc. Focusing on those issues would be the same as if a patient came into my office with lung cancer and I spent my whole time focusing on their cholesterol, headaches, and every other issue except the cancer. The Muslim community for credibility needs to start focusing most of its resources on the root cause of terrorism as a tactic, which is political Islam.

The methods of reform are manifold. First, engage the Muslim community on these issues, get informed about the difference between sharia law and constitutional law, and start to have discussion panels, not the interfaith, “kumbiyah” discussions that legitimize most Muslim communities’ leaders.

I have Frank Gaffney, executive producer of the documentary Islam vs. Islamists, to thank for connecting me with Dr. John Templeton and others. After his film, originally scheduled as part of PBS’ “America at a Crossroads,” was pulled from that series, it was shown on Fox News a couple of weeks ago. Ahmed Shqeirat, the imam who’s one of my main Islamist adversaries in Phoenix, in that documentary alluded to me (though not by name), claiming that I’m a “liberal extremist”. He went on to say that “people like me think we can somehow separate religion and politics and don’t want to acknowledge that every Muslim wants to live in an Islamic state, under sharia law.”

After the showing of the film locally, one interfaith celebration I knew of was cancelled in Phoenix. So people are starting to understand that there is a veneer of moderation from the Islamists. They know how to play the game outside the mosque, but these organizations are lacking on civil rights within their community. It’s a corruption that needs to be exposed. Ultimately, these institutions will disappear quickly once they start to be exposed to the regular American community that pays attention to hypocrisy.

So second, the Muslim community needs to be held accountable to its concept of umma. Umma is a word that is very prevalent in the Quran. It means “nation” or “community.” When an imam talks about umma, in Arabic and in his sermons, it is a threatening concept, because you then wonder at what point does an American Muslim follow the needs of the Muslim nation vs. the needs of the American nation to which he or she is a citizen. The Muslim community needs to “de-ummatize” itself, to really restrict the mechanism by which the umma is invoked. I would personally limit it to our study of theology and learning about the Quran and scripture; to charity that obviously all of our faiths seek to give; to socialization, obviously marriage within the faith is something all of our faiths try to do; and then last facilitating our hajj, our pilgrimage, and other aspects of practice and spirituality including mosques and community worship.

Third, we need to change the dreams. The dreams of most Muslims today are still wedded, because they have come from oppression and dictatorships, to religion, because the mosque was the last institution where they had a little freedom of speech, as long as they didn’t speak against their own government. That’s why the Muslim Brotherhood took over the mosques in Syria, and why the Wahhabis were able to spread texts into most of the mosques in the world, at a cost of $80 billion that they spent on spreading the radical word of Wahhabism. They were able to inculcate this literature into a lot of mosques, under the guise of most of these dictatorships.

We need to change those dreams from dreams of the utopian caliphate or Islamic states that bring them supposedly Islamic freedom to dreams of Western, individual freedom, where access to government and society is open to all. Much of the leadership on this must come from Muslim business leaders, who can argue for the kind of education that is needed.

Next, help us establish institutions. The Western enlightenment happened with the establishment of enlightenment institutions, classically liberal institutions that queried the church and government and began to question authority.

Hold some litmus tests and standards for the Muslims you engage with organizationally. They need to recognize Israel as a state, to stand against radical Islamist groups by name, not by theory, tactic, or condemning terrorism, but by name—Hamas, Al Qaeda and other groups. If they don’t have the moral courage to name the Saudis, the Syrian government, as an oppressive dictatorship, then you have to wonder where their allegiances are. These types of litmus tests are not being done enough even by our own government and the people they attach themselves to.

We need help in what I would call a counter-jihad that is still in its earliest, mitotic cell divisions. There are so many factors affecting the ability of Muslims to really contribute and get involved. One is because of fear—moderates are actually the first to be attacked; because of tribalism, because of the lack of knowledge. There are probably more people in this room who understand sharia than in most of the Muslim groups I’ve spoken to. That’s sad. It’s because the reins of understanding intellectual theology in Islam are just given up by most Muslims.

I will conclude with another Jefferson quotation that talks about the patience with which revolutions happen. “The generation which commences a revolution rarely complete it. Habituated from their infancy to passive submission of body and mind to their kings and priests, they are not qualified when called on to think and provide for themselves; and their inexperience, their ignorance and bigotry make them instruments often in the hands of the Bonapartes and Iturbides to defeat their own rights and purposes.” (Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1823)

Jefferson was talking about our country’s founding. He didn’t end slavery, but Lincoln, who did decades later, probably said it best: “America is the world’s last greatest hope for mankind.” We have to remember the ideas America stands for, that there are millions of Muslims who came here because of those ideas, and if we tell them that Islam is the problem, we will not win the war.

Dr. Jasser is founder and board chairman of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy (AIFD). A former U.S. Navy Lieutenant Commander, he served in the U.S. Navy as a medical officer from 1988–99. He finished his military service as a Lieutenant Commander with an Honorable Discharge in 1999 and is now in the private practice of internal medicine and nuclear cardiology in Phoenix, Arizona. This enote is based on his September 26 talk as the 12th Annual Templeton Lecture on Religion and World Affairs. Published by FPRI.

Mischka,
I took the time to look up the tafsir of Maududi of Pakistan for you for the verse 4:94. This is what he says on it:
**********************
In the early days of Islam, Assalam-u-alaikum (peace be upon you) was a symbol of recognition for Muslims. When a Muslim met another Muslim, he greeted him with this salutation, as if to say, "I belong to your own community; I am your friend and well-wisher. I have nothing but peace and security for you; so you should not show enmity towards me nor fear enmity and harm from me." It was like a "pass-word" used in the army while passing through a line of guards at night so as to discern between friends and foes.
The importance of the salutation of peace as a symbol of recognition was specially great at that time because there was no apparent mark of distinction between a Muslim Arab and a non-Muslim Arab, as they wore the same kind of dress and spoke the sami language. Still a difficulty arose when the Muslims attacked some clan and a local Muslim also became the target of attack. Then he would cry out, Asalam-u-alaikum or La llaha illallah (there is no god but Allah). But the attacking Muslims would suspect him to be a disbeliever who was using the password as a trick merely to save his life. They would, therefore, often kill him and take possession of his belongings as spoils. Although the Holy Prophet would severely admonish the offenders on such occasions, yet there was a recurrence of such incidents. Then Allah solved the difficulty in this verse, which means, "You have no right to judge cursorily that the man, who is declaring himself to be a Muslim, is telling a lie merely to save his life. It is equally possible that he may be speaking the truth, or telling a lie, and one cannot know the reality without making a thorough investigation. Thus, while there is a chance of letting off a disbeliever by accepting his salutations of peace as genuine, there is also the more horrible chance of killing an innocent Believer. In any case, it is far better to let off a disbeliever by mistake than to kill a Reliever by error."
**************************

The link to above is http://www.tafheem.net/main.html
You will have to navigate to chapeter 4 and then to verse 94.

As you can see that the salutation has got nothing to do with accepting being friends with the non-muslims but it is just a command not to kill the muslims who have hiding as non-muslims and who identify themselves by saying the Muslim greeting.

Mischka,

I do not hate muslims. Muslims are my people. I am trying to help muslims to the best of my abilities. All I am doing is showing the muslims the truth about Islam. Show me one lie I have posted, one verse that I have doctored, one time I have said that people should hate muslims. If you can, I will apologise and I promise you that I will never ever post again anywhere or talk about Islam with anyone ever.

All I ask is for you to actually read the Quran and the tafsirs and the commentaries through the eyes of your christian and jewish and non-muslim friends. Please read the quran and commentaries on it for yourself.

Mischka you say that I have doctored the verses. Show me where I have doctored anything. I have given you the links check them out.

Here is the link to the tafsir by ibn Kathir for this verse. Read it and see for yourself.

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=11997

Mischka, the truth cannot be hidden. What is true is true. We cannot lie to each other and we cannot lie to our fellow humans any longer.

Mischka,

The links to what I have posted are:
For the Quran Verse see
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.094

For the tafsir of ibn Abbas on this verse see
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=4&tAyahNo=94&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0

Mischka, I am not lying and I am not a bigot. You see the truth in this day and age cannot be hidden. Check it out for yourself. I will post the link to the tafsir on this verse by ibn Katir in the following post. Check them out for yourself.

Shame on you Kafir - for coming onto these blogs and looking down on another religion.

Shame on you Kafir - for lying and doctoring quotes to suit your pig-like needs.

Shame on you Kafir - for being a BIGOT.

Shame on you Kafir - for trying to hurt innocent people.

I have answered every single one of your stupid idiotic accusations with honesthy and truth. And you have lied in return. You are not a worthy opponent because you cant rely on truth to prove a point.

This fight is not even a fair one because Im holding the Qur'an and you dont even have the truth to back you up. You feel so threatened by Islam that you resort to lying to help yourself??? What a disgusting pig!

You doctor verses and pretend to be honest - I used to feel sorry for you but now I feel that if someone can be SO purely evil - then they deserve to stay that way. Why should a person like Kafir be helped? He is not sick - he is EVIL.

The best way to understand a terrorist is to look into the minds of people like Kafir and Deb Chatterjee. These people are waiting for chances to shed innocent blood - namely Muslim blood. The trait of a terrorist is something you will see in Kafir and Deb: they like hate speech. They thrive in spreading hatred among people and instigating war. Meaning, they wont be the ones fighting a terrorist war - they will put the weapons along with their disgusting hate speech into the hands of innocent people who will do the fighting for them. Do you see the amount of hatred and venom spewing from their nostrils??? Who would consider these people mildly educated or even good people?

What is the point of talking to them? After several posts I have noticed Kafir is simply that: a Kafir. He is nothing more then another Osama running around under disguise. The only difference would be that Osama is Muslim and Kafir is not. However, their agenda is still the SAME: HATRED.

I have posted so many times on this blog but there is NO progress with you! None! There can be no progress because you are not looking for a dialogue - you are looking for a war. And I dont care anymore to ignite another flame with you.

I wont be checking this post anymore -

Good riddance to bad trash!

NOTE TO ALL READERS - PLEASE MAKE SURE TO LOOK UP ALL REFERENCES KAFIR MAKES ON THESE BLOGS.

HE LIES ABOUT EVERYTHING HE POSTS AND NOT A SINGLE THING HE SAYS HAS AN IOTA OF TRUTH IN IT.

***DO NOT TAKE HIS WORD AS PROOF - PLEASE LOOK IT UP AND MAKE SURE TO UNDERSTAND THE TRANSLATION AS WELL***

Kafir's problem - he is a bigot who needs a reality check.

Mischka writes: "Also, the fact is that we are also allowed to eat meals with the People of the Book - Christians and Jews. Why would that be if we are not to be friends? Interesting..."

You have been told some mangled hadiath. There is nothing in the Quran about sharing meals with christians and jews. So provide your reference which tells you that, so I can show the kafirs how you lie even about such a small thing as eating meals with others!!!

And don't forget to answer about the lies that you tried telling about 4:94 and "no compulsion in religion".

Mischka, Mischka, Mischka,

You poor lost soul.

You quote Quran 4:94 ?
Here is Quran 4:94 for the readers to see for themselves:

004:094
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! When ye go forth (to fight) in the way of Allah, be careful to discriminate, and say not unto one who offereth you peace: "Thou art not a believer," seeking the chance profits of this life (so that ye may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils. Even thus (as he now is) were ye before; but Allah hath since then been gracious unto you. Therefore take care to discriminate. Allah is ever Informed of what ye do.

The verse is telling the Muslim Jihadi when he on Jihad that if the kafir accepts to be "subdued" and is willing to either convert or pay jiziya then don't reject that out of greed for the kafir's wealth. Jihadi's are entitled to booty, spoils of war, and when the kafir is killed, everything that belongs to the kafir is booty including the kafirs children and women. So this is the peaceful verse you are quoting for the kafirs here?

Tafsir ibn Abbas explains the verse as follows:
*****************
Then Allah revealed about Usamah Ibn Zayd who killed Mirdas Ibn Nuhayk al-Farari, a fellow believer, saying: (O ye who believe! When ye go forth (to fight) in the way of Allah) in Jihad, (be careful to discriminate) between who is a believer and who is an unbeliever, (and say not unto one who offereth you peace) he who greets you and says to you “there is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah”: (“Thou art not a believer”;) and then kill him (seeking the chance profits of this life) so that you may despoil him. (With Allah are plenteous spoils) He has with Him a tremendous reward for him who avoids killing a fellow believer. (Even thus (as he now is) were ye before) with your people feeling safe with the believers and with Muhammad (pbuh) and his Companions because of the attestation of “there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah”, before the Emigration; (but Allah hath since then been gracious unto you) by migrating from the unbelievers. (Therefore take care to discriminate) such that you do not kill believers. (Allah is ever informed of what ye do) whether it is killing someone or other things.
**************************

Is this the peaceful greeting you tell your Allah tells you to say to your friends!

Don't you feel the slightest shame?

Then you lie about "there is no compulsion in religion", but then why is someone who does not want to remain a muslim put to death? Why is the punishment for apostasy death? Read the tafsirs and you will see that the verse "no compulsion in religion" means that the kafirs are not allowed to prevent any of their own from "reverting" to Islam. But no one is allowed to leave islam. That is what your "there is no compulsion in religion" means. Tell the kafirs if there really is no compulsion in religion then why are muslims put to death if they renounce Islam?

Look at yourself!!!

1. Your Allah tells you in six different verses through the Quran not to have christians, jews, or pagans as friends. And you do!! You do not even try to offer an excuse why you disobeying your own Allah and offering proof against yourself.
2. I show you that jiziya in the Quran means humiliation for the kafirs. And all you can say subdued means "live in peace"? and then merrily start repeating the nonsense spouted by lying muslim sites.
3. I ask you to produce a verse showing that allah allows you to befriend Kafirs and you produce 4:94!! This verse is telling the jihadi to be careful in which kafir they kill!!
4. Then you try to lie about "no compulsion in religion".

Shame on you.

Go read your Quran and learn your Islam.
Think how your kafir friends treat you and the hate, and absolute degradation for them that you propagate. And you have the audacity to wear a hijab and proclaim to the kafir how you and your Islam wants their destruction and death? Kafirs are ignorant about your death cult, but they are learning. Everyone should read and understand the hate manual of Muhammad, your Quran.

"Here is the Wikipedia definition of hate speech: “speech intended to degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against a person or group of people based on their race, gender, age, ethnicity, nationality, **religion**, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, language ability, moral or political views, socioeconomic class, occupation or appearance (such as height, weight, and hair color), mental capacity and any other distinction-liability.”"

Kafir - you're hopeless. You are always wrong about everything you write on these blogs - always. Its amazing and also very satisfying...lol.

"The Quran settles this dilemma. It says that Muslims are not to taunt pagans who greet them with "peace be upon you" by shouting, "You're not a Muslim!" They are to accept the sincerity of the greeting..."

"Quran 4:94:

. . . Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this life. For God has abundant treasure. You used to be like them, after all, and then God blessed you."

This verse tells us one thing very clearly - that we are not forbidden from befriending a non-Muslim. Also, the fact is that we are also allowed to eat meals with the People of the Book - Christians and Jews. Why would that be if we are not to be friends? Interesting...

Of course, the Quran condemns idol worship and warns their followers of the after-life. However, the Quran also commands Muslims to live in peace with non-Muslims who do not make war on them and approach them in peace.

"“Let there be no compulsion in religion” Qur'an 2:258"

"Mischka has nothing to say about Jiziya anymore?"

Of course I do!!! You really think some fool could shut me up?!?!?!?

Non-Muslim citizens who pay the tax are permitted to practice their faith and to enjoy communal autonomy as well as being entitled to Muslim protection from outside aggression and being exempted from military service amongst numerous other exemptions to levies upon Muslim citizens.

As for that last bit of idiocy - taking advantage of whose friendship??? You are no friend to anyone - not even yourself. You hate - thats all you do. The only thing you have going for yourself is hate - pretty common for people like yourself. You have nothing to offer a Muslim aside from a negative, predisposed opinion against Islam.

Thats it.

Mischka,

You never answered why do you give proof against yourself by befriending Christians and jews when Allah forbids it.

Show one verse or one verse you have quoted that says you are allowed to befriend, or have helpers from the unbelievers!!!

Readers, notice that Mischka does not address the hateful verses I posted. She is totally silent on those without even nary an explanation. Instead she brings other verses to show the peaceful side. Welcome to the Mr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Now Please read every verse Mischka provides and see that it is given by a warlord Muhammad who behaved differently when he did not have power and when he did acquire power. The verses are addressed to the muslims and muslims only and not to humanity at large regarding how they should behave vis non-muslims. Notice it is assumed that humanity is already divided into muslims and non-muslims as a given by these verses. That is the curse of Islam. It divides humanity into eternal warring camps, those who believe in allah and Muhammad and those who do not. Every time the Quran mentions the unbelievers, the Allah of the Quran curses, threatens and pours out bile. And then there is the verse 9:29 showing the condition under which non-muslims are allowed to live among the muslims.

Mischka has nothing to say about Jiziya anymore?
Mischka is a hypocrite living among the kafirs, taking advantage of the "live and let live" laws of the kafirs, taking advantage of their friendship, but at the same time spreading the hateful and violent message of the Quran.

"Here is the Wikipedia definition of hate speech: “speech intended to degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against a person or group of people based on their race, gender, age, ethnicity, nationality, **religion**, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, language ability, moral or political views, socioeconomic class, occupation or appearance (such as height, weight, and hair color), mental capacity and any other distinction-liability.”"

The enlightenment taught Kafir a lot of hate speach but not manners or tolerance. The enlightenment taught Kafir that its okay to target people based on their religion and beliefs. This enlightenment that you speak of - is it some perverted website that you subscribe to? Because it definitely seems like it.

TO answer your foolish question::::

My family befriends people of all ethnicities and religions. Islam discourages aggression of any sort and that is the truth. I have non-Muslim friends and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that - contrary to the non-Muslim Kafir with limited knowledge of Islam. TV Scholars are not respected in my eyes because they do not have minds of their own - much like Kafir.

"Permission is given to those who fight because they have been wronged, and God is indeed able to give them victory; those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said, "Our Lord is God"-for had it not been for God's repelling some men by means of others, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, in which the name of God is much mentioned, would certainly have been destroyed. Verily God helps those that help Him - lo! God is Strong, Almighty - those who, if they are given power in the land, establish worship and pay the poor-due and enjoin what is good and forbid iniquity. Quran 22:39-41"

"Fight in the way of God those who fight against you, but do not transgress. God does not love the transgressor. Quran 2:190

"Those who fight against you" means actual fighters - civilians are protected. The Prophet and his successors, when they sent out an army, gave clear instructions not to attack civilians - women, old people, religious people engaged in their worship - nor destroy crops or animals."

"Verse 2:191 begins:

"Slay them where you find them and expel them from where they expelled you; persecution [fitna] is worse than killing."

"Slay them wherever you find them," has been made the title of an article on war in Islam.6 In this article "them" is removed from its context, where it refers back to "those who attack you" in the preceding verse. "Wherever you find them" is similarly misunderstood: the Muslims were anxious that if their enemies attacked them in Mecca (which is a sanctuary) and they retaliated, they would be breaking the law. Thus the Qur'an simply gave the Muslims permission to fight those enemies, whether outside or inside Mecca, and assured them that the persecution that had been committed by the unbelievers against them for believing in God was more sinful than the Muslims killing those who attacked them, wherever they were. Finally, it must be pointed out that the whole passage (Quran 2:190-5) comes in the context of fighting those who bar Muslims from reaching the Sacred Mosque at Mecca to perform the pilgrimage. This is clear from verse 189 before and verse 196 after the passage. In the same way, the verse giving the first permission to fight occurs in the Qur'an, also in the context of barring Muslims from reaching the Mosque to perform the pilgrimage (Quran 2:217)."

"And if they incline to peace, do so and put your trust in God. Even if they intend to deceive you, remember that God is sufficient for you. Quran 8:61-2"

"Co-operate in what is good and pious and do not co-operate in what is sinful and aggression. Quran 5:2"

"God does not forbid you from being kind and equitable to those who have neither made war on you account of your religion nor driven you from your homes. God loves those who are equitable. Quran 60:8"

"O you, those who have faith, when you go out to fight in the path of God, make things clear and do not say to someone who gives you peace, "You are not a believer," - you coveting the pleasures of the life of the world, and with God is abundant reward. You were the same as that before, then God was gracious to you. So make it clear. Surely God is aware of what you do." - Surah an-Nisa verse 94

I would like to continue writing verses on this blog in regards to peace and Islam but I have to go right now - unlike Kafir - I have friends and a weekend to that I would like to spend doing something other then hating another religion.

Mischka & Victoria,

Now that the translation of the Quran is available in English and can be easily accessed by anyone online, it is going to take some hard convincing a non-Muslim what is actually written in the Quran. Remember non-Muslims are not brainwashed. They do not pray five times a day that Allah is the only God and Mohammad his last prophet. Allah is the pagan God of the Arabs who supposedly had at least three daughters. Mohammad did away with the daughters of Allah and converted worship of Allah to monotheism. He borrowed all the religion from Judaism and Christianity. He twisted what he chose to convert Islam to a political system where dissent would not be tolerated, death for apostacy is a clear example. End of story.

Mischka writes: "Next - feeling subdued means (must you be so foolish???) live in peace. "

You never did answer if you offer open proof against yourself to Allah by taking christians and jews as friends. Why?

You can yell all you like at me, and call me all kinds of names, but what I say is not going away. It is becoming general knowledge. It is available to everyone. Soon it will be common knowledge among the kafirs around the world. You will have to answer and you will not be able to live with lies.

Take a look at the literal translation of 9:29 Quran:

Qatiloo allatheena la yu/minoona biAllahi wala bialyawmi al-akhiri wala yuharrimoona ma harrama Allahu warasooluhu wala yadeenoona deena alhaqqi mina allatheena ootoo alkitaba hatta yuAAtoo aljizyata AAan yadin wahum saghiroona

Fight/kill those who do not believe with God and nor the Day the Last/Resurrection Day, and do not forbid/prohibit what God and His messenger forbid/prohibited, and do not take/adopt a religion the correct/right religion from those who were given/brought The Book , until they give/hand over jiziya, and (while) they are subservient/humiliated .

The order is to kill the kafir till they pay jiziya with humiliation.

The very famous Tafsir of ibn-Kathir explains this as follows:

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace

Allah said,
(until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam,
(with willing submission), in defeat and subservience,(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled.
Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said,

(Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.) This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace. The scholars of Hadith narrated from `Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ash`ari that he said, "I recorded for `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham: `In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of Allah `Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city. When you (Muslims) came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion. We made a condition on ourselves that we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims. We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors [of our houses of worship] for the wayfarer and passerby. Those Muslims who come as guests, will enjoy boarding and food for three days. We will not allow a spy against Muslims into our churches and homes or hide deceit [or betrayal] against Muslims. We will not teach our children the Qur'an, publicize practices of Shirk, invite anyone to Shirk or prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so. We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them. We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons. We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor. We will have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist, refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets. We will not sound the bells in our churches, except discretely, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims, nor raise our voices [with prayer] at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets. We will not bury our dead next to Muslim dead, or buy servants who were captured by Muslims. We will be guides for Muslims and refrain from breaching their privacy in their homes.' When I gave this document to `Umar, he added to it, `We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.'''

Go check it out for yourself. The tafsir is available on line at www.tafsir.com

Mischka you can yell all you like but truth is truth and it will not go away. Next time you talk to your christian friends in USA, think what your allah is telling you and what you are doing. You want to promote this hatred in the world? You really want to worship this dreadful monster from the 7th century barbaric arabia? Think for yourself for a second. So much hate ... why?

Listen UP Kafir -

Shame on you for being a BIGOT. Shame on you for coming onto these blogs with your prejudiced views and trying to defame another religion because you have suffered some disgusting childhood trauma. You are disturbed - I can see that plain as day and I dont care to sit here and help you through issues. Whatever they are, Im sure there is a medication out there to help you through it. Find some help - a doctor or the nearest body of water to jump into - I dont care. Read this again - I do not care.

Next - feeling subdued means (must you be so foolish???) live in peace. Meaning dont cause harm to other people. SIMPLE - GET OVER YOURSELF AND STOP LYING ON THESE BLOGS!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU THINK YOUR LYING WILL GO UNNOTICED BY MYSELF OR OTHERS??????????????????? HOW STUPID DO YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE?????????? YOU INSULT THE INTELLIGENCE OF PEOPLE BY OPENING YOUR FOUL LITTLE MOUTH. YOU DISGUST ME.

****NORMALLY, I WOULD SIT HERE AND SLAP DOWN ALL OF YOUR FALSE CLAIMS FROM THE QUR'AN AND POST THE REAL THING ON THESE POSTS - BUT ITS NOT ISLAM THAT YOU ARE AFTER - ITS MUSLIMS. ITS NOT ISLAM ONLY THAT YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH - ITS RELIGION IN GENERAL. YOU ARE PROBABLY ONE OF MANY LAZY FOOLS I HAVE COME ACROSS HERE THAT WANT TO SIT IN FRONT OF THE TELEVISION, WATCH CNN AND PRETEND TO BE KNOWLEDGABLE ABOUT THE WORLD THEY LIVE IN - WHEN THEY ARE ACTUALLY ILLITERATE ABOUT EVERYTHING THEY CLAIM TO KNOW OF. REPEATING TV DOES NOT MAKE YOU SMART - IT MAKES YOU PUPPET. A FUNNY LITTLE PUPPET THAT ANYONE CAN TURN WHICHEVER WAY THEY WANT. YOU ARE SUCH AN EASY MIND TO MANIPULATE AND THATS WHAT THE MEDIA RELIES ON - THE POOR AND AVERAGE LITTLE MIND THAT DOES NOT KNOW ANY BETTER.****

UNDERSTAND THIS::: I AM MUSLIM - WILL ALWAYS BE MUSLIM. ISLAM IS THE RELIGION OF PEACE AND ALSO ONE OF THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD. ITS NOT FOR FOOLS - WHICH PUTS YOU AT A DISADVANTAGE - BUT WHO CARES ABOUT BIGOTS THESE DAYS??? NO ONE!

YOUR NASTY ATTITUDE TOWARDS MUSLIMS AND ISLAM WILL STAY JUST THAT - AN ATTITUDE. YOU CANT DO A THING TO HURT US AND IF YOU THINK YOU CAN - TAKE YOUR BEST SHOT.

THIS IS CCNL ALL OVER AGAIN PEOPLE - SOME RETIRED OLD FOGIE LIVING IN A RATTY OLD APARTMENT WITH A BOTTLE OF PILLS FOR COMFORT.

Mischka writes: "When I say that the punishment should fit the crime - I MEAN IT. What else does our judicial system do in America - it finds punishment that fits the crime!"

By you then "burning of eyes, being bled to death under a hot sun, cutting of limbs, and being denied water to those being bled to death" fits the crime of murder? Crucifixion fits the crime of "fighting Allah and Muhammad"? You do find death by torture acceptable punishment.

Shame on you.

Mischka writes:"JIZIYA - JIZIYA IS THE TAX PAID TO HELP/SUPPORT/BUILD ANY NON-MUSLIM RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS TO ALLOW NON-MUSLIMS TO PRACTICE THEIR RELIGIONS FREELY."

Jiziya is mentioned in the Quran in the following verse:

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

So tell why does Allah want the jizya paid with willing submission and that the kafirs should feel them subdued?
***********************
Theory and Practice of Muslim State in India, Delhi, 1999, pp. 139-140.
There is a desire to equate Zakat with Jiziyah to emphasize the fairness of the Islamic fiscal system. The Muslims pay Zakat and the non-Muslims Jiziyah. But the analogy is fallacious. The rate of Zakat tax is as low as 2.5 per cent and that on the apparent property only. All kinds of concessions are given in Zakat with regard to nisah or taxable minimum. In its collection no force is applied because force vitiates its character. On the other hand, the rate of Jiziyah is very high for the non-Muslims- 48, 24, and 12 silver tankahs for the rich, the middling and the poor, whatever the currency and whichever the country. Besides, what is central to Jiziyah is the humiliation of infidel always, particularly at the time of collection. What is central in Zakat is that it is voluntary; at least it cannot be collected by force. In India Zakat ceased to be a religious tax imposed only on the Muslims. Here Zakat was levied in the shape of customs duties on merchandise and grazing fee on all milk-producing animals or those which went to pasture, and was realized both from Muslims and non-Muslims. According to the Islamic law, ‘import duties for Muslims were 5 per cent and for non-Muslims 10 per cent of the commodity’. For, Abu Hanifa, whose Sunni school of law prevailed in India, would tax the merchandise of the Zimmis as imposts at double the Zakat fixed for Muslims.
***************************

And the following is for the previous post:

004.144
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?

So do you take the unbelievers for friends and offer Allah an open proof against yourself? Is this teaching love and friendship for humanity, for people? Is this teaching tolerance for others?

Read that verse again about Jiziya and as why the willing submission and feeling subdues. How many islamic scholars do you want to read that tell the jiziya is specifically designed to humiliate the kafirs. It is a tool to force the kafirs to convert to Islam. Look at the muslim countries where jiziya is imposed.

Do you think for a second that the lies of the muslims that you have been taught and that you are parroting faithfully can possibly stand in the day and age of the internet?

Mischka writes:""Unfortunately that is not what the Quran teaches. Quran teaches hate for the Kafirs."

THIS IS A BOLD FACED LIE - DO YOU READ THIS KAFIR - YOU ARE A LIAR. YOU ALWAYS WERE."

Let us see what the Quran says:

003.028
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

3:118
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.

Mischka, do you disobey your Allah and take jews and christians for friends? Do you respect a teacher, or your Kafir boss, doctor, or someone in authority?

And this is just a few verses.

76:04
SHAKIR: Surely We have prepared for the unbelievers chains and shackles and a burning fire.

Who are the unbelievers, Mischka that your Allah has prepared chains and shackles and a burning fire? Are the unbelievers not his creation? How many verses from the Quran do you want to see where Allah goes right down sadistic and starts pouring molten metal and making the kafirs drink boiling fluids and burning them again and regenerating them and burning them again. I am sure you know those verses as well.

005.082
YUSUFALI: Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

Do you ever take jews and Pagans that is hindus, buddhists etc as friends when your Allah tells you that they are the strongest in enmity to you?

Is this not hate for the kafirs, Mischka?

033.064
YUSUFALI: Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers and prepared for them a Blazing Fire,-

Anyone who does not believe in Muhammad, Allah curses them and prepares for them a Blazing Fire. What love Allah has for the kafirs.

009.030
YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

And Allah cursing the jews and the christians is teaching love for the kafirs, according to you Mischka?

And this barely starting to scratch the surface of the deep deep hate that the quran teaches the muslims for the non-muslims. Muslims children grow up hearing day in day out how evil the non-muslims are. Your parents do not do that because you are a small minority here and they know you have to grow among the kafirs, but go to a muslim country and see the hate that muslims are taught for the non-muslim.

You are not even a fool, Mischka, you are merely ignorant and do not know much about your islam.

Kafir - Must I always treat you like a child? Do I have to explain EVERYTHING?????

"Mischka writes: "Live and let live."

Good. And that is what the enlightenment teaches.

What enlightenment??? Your enlightenment is only teaching you bigotry - which you exhibit very openly on these blogs.

"Unfortunately that is not what the Quran teaches. Quran teaches hate for the Kafirs."

THIS IS A BOLD FACED LIE - DO YOU READ THIS KAFIR - YOU ARE A LIAR. YOU ALWAYS WERE.

The Qur'an specifically says that Coercion is wrong and hated by God - what you claim is the opposite.

"aim of Islam is to have the word of Allah rule all the people everywhere."

So - what do you think of Christian missionaries spreading their religion? Isnt that spreading the word of God everywhere??? Do you think I was born yesterday??? You have got to be kidding me with your rubbish!

Mischka writes: "You can say/do whatever the heck you want - you are simply a very bitter little man with a hateful agenda."

"The hate comes from the Quran and the laws of Islam."

I see - and what makes you an expert on Islam? Your primitive knowledge of the religion is pretty obvious right along with your asinine comments.

Mischka writes: "I have never said I wanted Shariah in America."

Let us see what you wrote earlier.

Mischka writes in her post of Jan 10th, 5:18 pm

"Interesting - I specifically said that the punishment should fit the crime. If a criminal goes to trial and is found guilty - there should be a sentence and the Islamic state ONLY has the power to carry out that sentence - not decide it."

THIS IS WHAT I MEAN WHEN I SAY TV SCHOLARS! CNN does the same thing!

Let me explain Mr. Pea-Sized-Brain - When I say that the punishment should fit the crime - I MEAN IT. What else does our judicial system do in America - it finds punishment that fits the crime! HELLO KAFIR - WAKE UP AND SMELL THE ESPRESSO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And

"If the Qur'an was followed as a rule - I think it would and could work beautifully."

That is my opinion - and I am entitled to it. If a BIGOT like you can abuse my religion on these posts then I can CERTAINLY VOICE MY OPINION AND DEFEND MY RELIGION.

JIZIYA - JIZIYA IS THE TAX PAID TO HELP/SUPPORT/BUILD ANY NON-MUSLIM RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS TO ALLOW NON-MUSLIMS TO PRACTICE THEIR RELIGIONS FREELY.

IF YOU ARE NON-MUSLIM AND LIVING IN A MUSLIM COUNTRY - YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO FIGHT IN CASE THE COUNTRY GOES TO WAR.

TAKE YOUR RUBBISH SOMEWHERE ELSE KAFIR - YOU DESERVE TO BE A KAFIR.

GO EDUCATE YOURSELF BEFORE OPENING YOUR FOUL MOUTH.

well, yes- what is your point?
heres the entire post-

betty m- your statement-

Substitute Islam for Judaism in the original post and Muslims would be rioting in the streets all over the world... Jews are suppose to accept it as reasonable criticism when Muslims would be setting off suicide bombers in response."

January 18, 2008 10:51 PM

i cant believe people say things like this-

look at the lower left hand corner-
the question is 'is islam a violent religion?' see it there? 1506 responses- the largest on these boards, and its been there SINCE APRIL OF LAST YEAR

now- subsitute judaism for islam-

ooo- pretty racist, isnt it?

then go and look at the overtly violent, hateful and threatening posts against muslims-

then notice the genteel, moderate, reasonable and pacific repsoses by muslims

as a matter of fact- i challenge you to find even ONE VERBALLY violent muslim post in there-
let alone the constant calls for nuking all muslims, kicking them out of america, imprisoning them and putting them in concentration campls etc-

all responded to without anger and patience

the poster, betty m-
makes a sweeping generalization of a very ugly nature against muslims-
my repsonse was pretty balanced-

what is you point k?

im glad you find my posts so interesting that you bother to go and find them and repst them here- but-
what is the point?

For Allah's sake, Victoria, make an apology for the many lies you have posted on the "On Faith" forum.

Victoria types-

"go and look at the overtly violent, hateful and threatening posts against muslims-

then notice the genteel, moderate, reasonable and pacific repsoses by muslims

as a matter of fact- i challenge you to find even ONE VERBALLY violent muslim post in there-
let alone the constant calls for nuking all muslims, kicking them out of america, imprisoning them and putting them in concentration campls etc-

all responded to without anger and patience"

posted on January 19, 2008 12:33PM

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2008/01/gandhi_post_regrettable/allcomments.html

Mischka writes: "Live and let live."

Good. And that is what the enlightenment teaches. That is what the non-muslims provide to muslims who live among them. Unfortunately that is not what the Quran teaches. Quran teaches hate for the Kafirs. Kafirs are only allowed to live in a muslim country if they "willingly pay jiziya feeling subdued", and the aim of Islam is to have the word of Allah rule all the people everywhere. So Kafirs need to know that live and let live is only allowed in the kafir world and not the muslim world. There is no muslim country even at present where the non-muslims are given equality under the law even remotely.

Mischka writes: "You can say/do whatever the heck you want - you are simply a very bitter little man with a hateful agenda."

My telling the truth about Islam is not a hateful agenda. The hate comes from the Quran and the laws of Islam. Show it otherwise. Show that I am lying in any of the statements I have made. You attempt to abuse me but you have never shown that what I have said about the quran or muhammad is false. So telling the truth about Islam is hateful in your eyes?

Mischka writes: "I have never said I wanted Shariah in America."

Let us see what you wrote earlier.

Mischka writes in her post of Jan 10th, 5:18 pm

"Interesting - I specifically said that the punishment should fit the crime. If a criminal goes to trial and is found guilty - there should be a sentence and the Islamic state ONLY has the power to carry out that sentence - not decide it."

And

"If the Qur'an was followed as a rule - I think it would and could work beautifully."

The crime under discussion was murder and the punishment was what Muhammad doles out to the Ukl tribesmen, that is, burning of eyes, cutting of limbs, bleeding the murderers to death and denying them water when they begged for it. That is the sentence carried out. The Quran prescribes crucifixion and cutting of limbs. I have been asking whether these punishments "fit the crime" and you cannot bring yourself to say no, and hence agreeing that the cruel and savage punishments are acceptable. And when you say if the quran was followed as a rule ... that is another way of saying if Islamic Sharia is followed.

Take the time to read the timesonline link I gave. At least the mullah is honest there and he does want Sharia and he does want cutting of limbs and death by torture as ordained by your quran. You think if quran was followed ( for the non-muslim that means paying jiziya feeling willinly subdued ) with cutting of limbs as in Iran and Saudi Arabia, for that is part of your quran) it would and could work beautifully!!! Call it by any other name, you have just stated that cutting of limbs and crucifixion is something that is good for humans.

Mischka, the civilzed humans reject that barbarity unequivocally. The Kafirs need to understand what even "moderate" muslims like yourself and Eboo offer to those who want to live in the "live and let live" modern civilization.

Kafir -

You still dont get it do you? I believe in religious freedom. Meaning in simpler words so that even YOU can understand :

Live and let live.

Can your teeny meeny mind grasp that??? Or do we need a translator for you now????

You can say/do whatever the heck you want - you are simply a very bitter little man with a hateful agenda. I have NEVER witnessed you say or bring a single positive idea to the table. That says one thing about you: you dont have the best interest of people at heart - you have only your selfish and negative agenda. People are not looking for wars Kafir - they want peace. Nothing about you says peace - its all about hate.

I have never said I wanted Shariah in America - you keep forcing that on me like I said that or wanted that. Its pathetic that you have to resort to that - but its okay. You have limited resources and are literally struggling for something meaningful to say.

I have offered too much clarification to you - more then a person like you deserves. Scroll below and read for yourself if you cant remember because I am not repeating myself. Your strategy is so stupid: even if you get an answer - deny deny deny.

Your attitude plainly says that you are a waste of time and you are quickly getting to be boring and redundant.

Either step it up a notch or stop posting.

Mischka,

Funny that you yell that you don't give a rat's tail ... okay. Don't. But you still have not answered and cannot answer why you support the inhuman punishment of
"crucifixion and cutting of limbs" ordained by your cruel and barbaric deity. You still have not provided a single reference showing that the hadith of your savage muhammad torturing to death the Ukl tribesmen for murder is "gharib" or weak by any islamic scholar.

You are the one who wanted to know what I have against Islam and I started telling you and all you can do is yell and scream, but you provide no answers.

The mullahs in UK want Sharia in Europe. How about you? You want Sharia in USA and you hide behind that you do not want to impose your ideas on anyone but you do think the barbaric and savage punishments of Islam would make the west better. Do you think the Kafirs cannot read and see what you mean?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/20/nsharia_120.xml
"We want to offer Sharia Law to UK".

And you offer the savage barbaric law of Islamic Sharia to USA.

Kafir -

"Mischka was born into the cult, and was told all the pain and torture she will suffer if she dares to think a thought against Muhammad."

Somebody put a lid on this self-centered piece of work! What pain? What torture? What suffering??? Who are you talking to? Hunh??? If you can bring a substantial discussion to the table backed by knowledge and facts - lets talk. All I have seen from you so far is junk. Ridiculous amounts of junk. You get on these blogs and you bad-mouth Islam and Muslims. And you also seem to think we care. But the truth is - NOW BRACE YOURSELF FOR THIS -

WE DONT GIVE A RAT'S A**.

"An independent thought in her evokes deeply planted fear of hell and its fire."

LOL. I was born and raised in the US of A. I went to college with Americans coming from all sorts of backgrounds. I still stuck with Islam - it offers me more then a narrow-minded individual like yourself could possibly fathom.

"It will take her years to escape that fear if she ever is capable of bringing herself to ask the first question on Islam."

I asked all my life and I am very happy with the answers I have gotten. Also, I cant expect you to understand where a Muslim comes from.

You are so bitter - and I think so much bitterness usually comes from within. Something happened to you at some point and now you are out to torture other people.

You are the real terrorist here. Spreading hatred.

why would any civilized human respect someone who supports and defends death by torture? Why would anyone respect someone who lies blatantly?

You are lying and dishonoring those who wanted freedom from the death cult by renouncing islam, and the muslims killed them. It would be nice to see that after 1440 years of savagery that a miniscule few of the muslims were waking up and starting to see that death for apostasy is barbaric. But even that is not true and you are trying to lie to the kafirs by giving a spurious link.

I have read the site, and there is nothing on it relating to those who renounce your death cult. Produce the link not for me, for I have read the site, but produce it for yourself because I will be giving this link to show the readers your logic and your habit of lying. Do it for your own credibility ... not for me.

if you were a person who exhibited respect- of course id take the time k-

but you dont-
i value my time and choose not to spend it on you-
find it yourself

ive posted it in full elsewhere here but i dont remeber where and wont spend the time to fidn that either

Mullah Victoria,

Are you not even ashamed of lying so transparently?

For those who do ever read this, take a look at
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2008/01/muslims_in_europe/all_comments.html
and her post at 12:38 pm of January 18, 2008 and the following couple of posts.

You provided a link to "countless pages" (your words) and you don't have the time to find your own reference.

You first support and defend death by torture and now you sink to transparent lying in attempting to try to confuse the baring of the evil nature of Muhammad? What a sad testimony of what Islam has done to you.

intresting k-
and when i disproved your contentions on apostasy on the muslims are europeans questions, you compained you "couldnt find the information "
o, and that i must be lying

it seems when concrete answers are conclusively given to you - you close you eyes

clearly, its the hating of islam that you enjoy- and have no interest in what you claim

hate away k-
let the headbangers bang

Victoria,

I certainly do, and the questions and issues that I bring will not go away. You will eventually have to answer to yourself and to people around you as to why you choose to defend death by torture as commanded by Allah. People have every right to view that barbarity as despicable and disgusting.

you have serious issues k

Mullah Revert victoria,

I am who I am and you can imagine me to be what ever you like. That is not the issue. The issue is what you desperately and pathetically are trying to avoid and run away from.

Your Allah in the Quran commands death by torture. Your prophet did not simply execute the murderers but tortured them to death. You have shown by your words so far that you support the inhuman and barbaric practice of torturing humans to death that countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia and other that implement Islamic Sharia practice.

For someone to willingly and voluntarily to have selected to follow such barbarity and then to defend it is disgusting and despicable. Others who read this will decide for themselves. Civilized humans rejected torturing other humans even for capital punishment a long long time ago, but Islam is stuck in the barbaric 7th century because Allah of the Quran himself commands the inhuman punishment of "crucifixion" or cutting of limbs for example in the Quran itself.

before you go off half-cocked again-

the point is that you are not even aware of the laws in america and claim what the constitution says without having any awareness of how that body of work has been corrupted

you seem incapable of logical progression of thought-

while your own narrow energies are focused on your own prejudices and justifying them-
you cant even imagine a statement that does not address your tiny agenda-

you were never a muslim-
you are an evangelical trolling anti-muslim sites and bringing snippets back from them

or maybe you were married to an abusive muslim man and hate islam for that-
whatever reason- your own hatred and psychological instability has nested in islam

maybe it was something else a few years ago, and maybe it will be something else in the future-

whatever it is- it is better for you to get your aggressions out in this forum than out in society in real life, so we suffer your delusions.

Mullah Revert,

You chose of your own free will to follow the prophet of doom who tortured people to death, who raped, who looted, enslaved and had people assassinated. You chose to follow a deity that hates and curses most of his own creation, and orders death by torture for those who refuse to follow his alter ego. And you choose to defend this death cult willingly. You defend crucifixion of humans all on your own and willingly!!!

Mischka was born into the cult, and was told all the pain and torture she will suffer if she dares to think a thought against Muhammad. An independent thought in her evokes deeply planted fear of hell and its fire. It will take her years to escape that fear if she ever is capable of bringing herself to ask the first question on Islam.

You embraced the evil the divides the humans into believers and kafirs on your own while she is stuck with it of no fault of her own.

youre very strange k-
i guess your reasoning is that mischka can be forgiven somehow because she was born into islam?

as if her brain doesnt work?

frankly, your "defense" of mischka is worse than the insults you ususally hurl at her!

but i am beyond your forgiveness range becuase i wasnt born a muslim?

who can tell what convoluted reasoning you have to get to your own personal judgements?

youre a strange one-

The answer that Mullah Revert Victoria provides is that according to her since the US president has authorized torture (which he has not, but let us accept that he has) that somehow makes it acceptable for Allah to codify death by torture!! That makes burning of eyes acceptable, by your account Victoria? That makes death by bleeding by cutting of limbs okay by you, Mullah?

Is that the defense of your prophet? It should make his torturing humans to death somehow acceptable to civilized people? It should make your Allah command of crucifying people who fight Allah humane?

Thank you for showing what Islam really does to human brain. And you are the one who examined all other religions and chose to follow an evil monster of your own accord? Mischka at least has the excuse that she was born into the cult.

Walaikum Assalaam Victoria - How are you doing?

I won't let them get to me - it just seems like the biggest hypocrites are always the mot outspoken ones. I wonder if they think before they open their putrid little traps like they have on these blogs.

They want to blame the world's problems on Islam AND their own!!!!!!!!!!

NOT a single person is willing to take responsibility for ANYTHING!

These fools do not want to discuss or share ideas - they simply want to feel "cool". They want to be part of the crowd of uneducated idiots who like to use Islam as a convenient scapegoat. Right?

Do they have any truthfulness to their claims??? NOPE!

Are these people BIGOTS??? YES!

i answered you k- even though id decided to ignore you basically for your lack of reason and resorting to ad hominems-

actually - i posted links and info on the fact that the US has de-defined torture-

i imagine you didnt read the military act of 2006-
if theres no definition of torture- one cannot be charged with it-

so, youre discovering that the US has passed many many laws that go directly against and contradict the constitution?

welcome to america dude-

also, while youre at it- go look up presidential directive 51 of the DHS-

gives bush dictatorial powers to circumvent congress if he deems a national emergency-

hmmm--- who else has done that recently?

and then go look up the patriot act-

then come back, after youve studied them (i epsecially recommend the congressional study done on article 51)

then come back and tell us how the constituion forbids torture.

while youre at it, come and tell us about the death penalty too.
have you been living under a rock?????

Mischka, and Mullah Revert Victoria,

I posted the following on Jan 11th, and to date no answer. I post it again so you do not have to look it up.

************************

1. I showed you a sahih hadith in which Muhammad tortured the Ukl tribesmen as punishment for murder.
2. I showed you that the US constitution and most civilized countries of the world prohibit "unusal and cruel punishments". Torture (Burning of eyes, cutting of limbs, etc is torture).
3. I asked you to clearly take a stand that the torture ordered by Muhammad was wrong, and that Allah ordering torture is wrong (Crucifixion and cutting of limbs in 5:32 is torture).
4. You could do neither. You went around and around trying to justify the torture.

So here is the question and try to answer (Yes or no should be sufficient):

1. Burning of eyes, cutting of limbs, and bleeding to death even as punishment for murder is barbaric and Muhammad was being barbaric when he ordered that to be done to the Ukl tribesmen. Yes or No?

2. The punishment specified in 5:33 of crucifixion and cutting of limbs are barbaric punishments. Yes or No?
****************

Really, why do you worship such a monster?

Mullah Revert Victoria,

Why do you worship such an evil and inhuman monster?

mischka-
salaams- dont let them get to you-

theyre just baiting you- i guess theyre bored

Mischka is back to heap curses on the hindus, but not a word about why she supports a barbarian warlord who burns peoples eyes, cuts their limbs to bleed them to death and denies the dying water when they beg for it!!

Mischka why do you worship such an evil monster?

Deb blubbers repeatedly -

"Basically, history shows that Islam needs thrashing on a repeated basis."

Oh? And I presume a religious bigot like yourself will be the one to deliver this thrashing? Beware people!!! Kolkata bigots are in town!

"Hindu fundamentalism is a direct outgrowth and blessed by Islam."

WOW! Have you ever seen such ridiculous behavior??? Blaming your own very obvious problems on Islam??? Deb - you are neurotic and maybe even possessed. You need some serious self-evaluation before you go and blame the WHOLE world for your problems. No wonder your family does not want you.

"Its a shame that Federal tax dollars, collected from Hindus in India is used to give Muslims to go their Hajj pilgrimage."

It seems as if you are jealous. Again, showing some sort of wierd psychotic symptoms. Why?

"Why should Muslims receive special treatment in India ?"

There are Indian Muslims in case you forgot Deb - try as hard as you want - they wont go away. That is their country. Now you can cry, scream, bawl, etc. nothing will make a difference.

"Why are you shoving the hypocrisy/terrorism of Muslims under the carpet ?"

Every Muslim is a terrorist in your eyes? You are a hypocrite and a terrorist in your own right - spreading hatred wherever you go.

You are a very miserable person Deb. You have no family support because they understand the evil person you are. You are a hypocritical closet-atheist. You dont even have the guts to tell people you are an atheist! Yet here you are - blasting away other people because your own life is so empty and meaningless.

Get used to it - it will stay that way.

Basically, history shows that Islam needs thrashing on a repeated basis. It's a cancer that is all poised to infect all secular societies. Modi's win, much to the headache of net-mullahs like Eboo Patel, is legitimate resistance to these Quran-thumping crappies.

Hindu fundamentalism is a direct outgrowth and blessed by Islam. In a secular country like India, Muslim appeasement is unabashedly practiced by all creepy political leaders from the left and right of the political spectrum. So, when Modi champions Hindu rights on an equal footing, Hindus and their rites and rituals become scary/fundamentalist right ? Muslims can exhibit fundamentalism and seek umbrage under the "religious freedom", but a Hindu cannot do the same. Right Eboo ?)

No wonder Islam thrives on bloody borders. Its a predatory religious doctrine that would deny equal opportunity to all other religions in an Islamic state, and in other places (where Muslims are in minority), Muslims would cry hoarse on the 'Muslim/Islam victimhood' issue. Its a shame that Federal tax dollars, collected from Hindus in India is used to give Muslims to go their Hajj pilgrimage. It is most disturbing, because by default Islam is all out to eliminate polytheists and Hindus are certainly polytheists. So, polytheists (Hindus) are supporting a religion (Islam) that is theoretically aimed at their (Hindus) elimination via conversion or Jihad. How nice of the pluralistic ethos that concerns the likes of Eboo Patel !

Why should Muslims receive special treatment in India ? Its because: (a) Hindus are cowards, and, (b) political parties have a underhand deal with Muslim ummah on the vote-bank trust issue. That is, all parties would support Muslims over all others just because they would be loyal voters to these rascals.

Eboo, you are just a obfuscator in criticizing Narendra Damodardas Modi. Why are you shoving the hypocrisy/terrorism of Muslims under the carpet ? What would it take for you to understand that Modi is a reaction to Muslim appeasement ? Or, are you paid to uphold the barbarism that the doctrine of Islam promotes ? Come clear, Eboo !

NO ONE MENTIONED INDIA
it is not to be taen as a model-
if you dont know about indonesias history- go and learn instead of sharing your imaginings based on your kowledge of india 20 years ago.

sojas words-
"and India is to be taken as a model for a society founded on Buddhist-Hindu principles, then it is hard to IMAGINE that Buddhists and Hindus so readily converted to Islam."

"I get quite annoyed when you take advantage of your practice of other religions and attribute spiritual insights from other religions to Islam."

what?
you get annoyed when i use my own spiritual insights?
what?

how in the world can ypou possibly arrogate yourself to know whare my insights come from?

so my truths annoy you?

and you want me to stop having insights?

are you serious?

Dear Victoria

You advised me to think about Islam in Indonesia as proof that a whole nation could convert to Islam based on its tenets. I know nothing about the pre-Islamic history and culture of Indonesia, therefore I cannot draw any conclusion about the nature of conversions to Islam. If Buddhism and Hinduism was widely practised in Indonesia before the arrival of Islam, and India is to be taken as a model for a society founded on Buddhist-Hindu principles, then it is hard to imagine that Buddhists and Hindus so readily converted to Islam. It is one thing for Arabian pagans to accept Islam readily because paganism does not have the kind of strong religious foundation, with founders, tenets etc that is a part of major religions, but converting someone who is already a believer of a major religion requires a lot of convincing based on tenets that is superior to the one religion one already practises.

testing

As to the topic of racism that I touched upon, I wish to share the wisdom of a five year old. I wanted to teach her about the need to look beyond the colour of skin, or any other external feature in relating to people and accordingly had my "parable" ready about how white lilies were very beautiful but a garden only with lilies would be very boring, and that was the reason God created human beings with different coloured skins, to have a garden with many beautiful coloured flowers...But my "Herzenskind" had a different idea. Her answer as to why God made people different, "He is God, He can do whatever He wants!"

There are good and bad people everywhere, in every race, in every community... People behave mostly in accordance with their conditioning (the conditioning changes all the time in accordance with the experiences the person makes and interprets them!), in accordance with the values they have acquired in many different ways, in accordance with their free will... It is vitally important to know what the conditioning of a person is, what their values are. It gives only an indication of how they might exercise their free will, but still there is no guarantee that the choices they make will be in accordance with what they know to be right, or that anotherwise "bad" person may not make choices that is essentially good. The power and curse of the free will!

Dear Victoria

On the subject of the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi, you are right, it was the work on a lone Hindu fanatic. No other Hindu had a hand in it although many were unhappy about Gandhi supporting the Muslim demand to divide up India politically. For the same reason the claim of Pakistan to Kashmir on religious grounds is a sore point with Indians.

I know Hindus much better than you do. I can say with certainty that they are an extremely peace loving people, the dark side of the caste system in Hinduism notwithstanding. Starting with my generation, the influence of the caste system is changing extremely fast. I am told that I would no longer recognize the India I left twenty years ago, the IT boom and the opening of India to other countries has brought about a real revolution.

You do Islam no favour if you don't try to build bridges based on mutual respect for other religions and acknowledge the spiritual insights of other religions and give them their due. In the academic world, plagiarism is considered serious misconduct. Since I have read the Quran for myself, I get quite annoyed when you take advantage of your practice of other religions and attribute spiritual insights from other religions to Islam. All religions are happy for Muslims to learn from their religions and apply all the good to Islam, but it isn't nice when you don't give credit where credit is due.

With your experience, you should be encouraging other Muslims to open up to other religions in order to learn from them and thus enrich their own spiritual insight.

Best wishes
Soja

Moody
As I had asserted in an earlier post, the Quran is like a supermarket, you can find in it whatever you desire. This is why over 69% of its Suras have outright contradictions. In one place it says the earth is flat and another it says it is egg shaped, etc. If the Quran has so much undiscovered knowledge why did not the Muslim scholars publicized them from long time ago and not wait till the “Kafirs” discover them. There is an Egyptian by the name of Zaghloul Najjar who claims to be a scientist and who constantly harps on this topic. He selects verses and twists their meanings to “prove?” his points. Let him explain for examples the meteor phenomenon which the Quran describe as missiles thrown by the angels against the Jinn who are eavesdropping on Allah. Below are mere three examples that I wish Moody or Najjar explain.

18:86
Until when he reached
The setting of the sun,
He found it set
In a spring of murky water:

Translation: The sun sets in a well with hot mud
.
31:10
He created the heavens
Without any pillars that ye
Can see; He set
On the earth mountains
Standing firm, lest it
Should shake with you;

Translation: The mountains are put there to anchor the earth so it would not move.

23 :12-14
Then We did create
From a quintessence(of clay)
Then We placed him
As(a drop of) semen
In a place of rest,
Firmly fixed;
Then We made the semen
Into a clot of congealed blood;
Then of that clot We made
A lump; then We
Made out of that lump
Bones and clothed the bones
With flesh; then We developed
Out of it another creature.

Translation: The semen became a clot of blood, then a lump and the lump became a skeleton and after that the skeleton was clothed with flesh. Have you ever heard of a woman aborting a skeleton?

Open your eyes you all who believe not and DARE TO ANSWER BELOW:

You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have….twist or lie
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THE TRUTH:
THAT EVERY RATIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!

MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)

Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (THIS BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK. THE ONLY LOGIC IS THAT IT’S FROM SOMEONE WHO IS COMMUNICATING TO A HUMAN AND KNOWS BETTER THAN HUMANS)

- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.

Verses about:

1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female attributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animal’s behavior and how they communicate.

AND MANY MORE............

THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.

Ibrahim

Thank you for the information you provided. The crusades are commonly referred to as making Christianity a violent religion in most debates (although nothing in the life of Jesus and His teachings have the slightest trace of violence in it), hence my reference to it. If I had put a ;) after my comment, it would have expressed what I actually meant. I am aware of the history of Islam that preceded the crusades. I believe in the just war theory first expounded by Augustine too. One blogger in fact posted an extensive list of violence perpetrated by Muslims before the Crusades began. The Roman Catholic of Rome has such an impressive history of which I am duly proud. The Christians who demonise the Catholic Church of Rome are the losers if they choose not to dip into the treasures of Christianity ammassed by the Catholic Church over two thousand years! The Syro-Malabar Catholics can boast of nothing like it. It is significant only as a very important historical and cultural aspect for us in Kerala, being converted by an Apostle of Jesus and being high caste Hindus. It has no special meaning in the wider history of Christianity. I have had the opportunity to enjoy the advantages of the Roman Catholic Church of Rome from a young age because I lived without access to Syrian Catholic churches from about the age of 14. In Kerala, the Syro-Malabar Catholicism has a caste connotation, that is why I mentioned it in my reference to the Christian conversion in Kerala. Due to the caste association, nobody is actually converted to the Syro-Malabar Catholic church. One is born into it, just like Brahmin is born into his caste! The conversion to catholic church is to the Latin rite of Rome. It is supposed to make for interesting reading, although it adds nothing to the debate on this thread. :)

Sonja:
You mention that your brand of Catholicism was not "tarnished by the Crusades". The Crusades were a clumsy and rather belated response to a long series of encroachments by Islam against the Lands of the Christians, and fighting back should not be considered as tarnishing the defenders' image.
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians

I think the US is doing a great job of tackling the race issue. All the black American heroes and heroines, and the greatest star of them all now, Sen Barak Obama, is proof of that! Onwards America!

Mischka:

Arif told you that Quran 5:32 "Whoever kills a
soul kills all humanity….” does not make sense. It does not make sense in its plagiarized out of context form; he who kills a person kills a person, but it does make some sense in its original text in the Jewish Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5. There it states “We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, “The voice of thy brother’s bloods crieth”(Gen.4:10). It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race”.
This is how a Jewish scribe interpreted Genesis 4:10.

PS: Victoria, I'd be a fool to even try!

Dear Victoria

If you get the impression all I have been doing on The Washington Post On Faith forum is to bash all other religions and other Christian denominations in order to promote Catholicism...there is nothing I can do to change your perception, is there?

Best wishes
Soja

Arif

Thank you for your kind words (I must warn you that I'm a lay person and not a Bible scholar!). As a Syro-Malabar Catholic from Kerala, India, I do happen to belong to a unique Eastern Christian tradition, which fortunately for the past 400 years can also take advantage of the universal Roman Catholic Church, without having to share its dark (crusades etc.) past!!! The Syro-Malabar Catholic Church in Kerala enjoys autonomy within the Roman Catholic Church (in our worship we follow a different rite known as the Syrian rite, while the others follow the Latin rite), but all who live outside Kerala are directly under Rome. Quite an interesting situation really.

The advantage I have in having Nambudiri Brahmin ancestors (my family name from Kerala gives an indication) is that no high caste Hindu could poo-poo my Christian faith based on the common belief that only lower caste Hindus would accept Christianity for material benefits and to escape the lower standing in society. The Christian community in Kerala is quite different to Christians in other parts of India by virtue of that ancient tradition of high caste conversions. There is a large community of lower caste converts to Christianity in Kerala too but that large scale conversion took place fifteen centuries later.

The Christian legend about the conversion of my Hindu ancestors, that my paternal grandmother made a point to drill into us when we were children, is this:

When Apostle Thomas met Nambudiri Brahmins at their morning worship, he watched their ritual of offering water to the sun-god and remarked, 'How come your god doesn't accept your offering? I will prove to you that my God accepts my offering.' He proceeded to scoop water from the river/pond and threw it up as the Brahmins had done. There was a gap in the water like a cup where he had scooped the water and the water he threw up did not return. Some Nambudiris are said to have converted to Christianity based on that miracle. Those who converted were promptly ex-communicated from their Hindu community, losing all the privileges of a Brahmin. Apostle Thomas must have made quite a strong case for Jesus and worked miracles, for many high caste Hindus converted. (The Nambudiri Brahmin is the highest caste, but there are a whole lot of other castes which are high but not as high as the Nambudiri, according to the lunatic classification of castes in Kerala; and even among the Nambudiris there is grading!)

Apostle Thomas is an interesting man; he is popularly known as The Doubter, but he is in fact the scientist. He doubted the Resurrection of Jesus and said to the other disciples who had seen Jesus that he would not believe unless he had seen the Crucifixion wounds of Jesus and touched them with His hands and the wound that was caused when Jesus was pierced. So the next time when Jesus appeared to His disciples, He told Thomas to touch the wounds on His body. Jesus knew the confirmation Jesus wanted, without anyone informing Him about it. Jesus was used to his bunch of ever doubting disciples (not a single blind follower among them!), and He was always like a patient mother in dealing with them.

As for the story you related... as you can see conversion to Christianity can be immaturely understood too. One should not take that as the example of the classic convert though. I doubt if the converts to Christianity by Apostle Thomas would have done something like that. The Bible clearly states one must respect one's boss and do one's work as done for God and be a good and law abiding citizen.

It is true that high caste Hindus would lose their position of religious power, in addition to losing their source of income with priestly duties (which they have enjoyed for at least five thousand years!!)if lower caste Hindus coverted to Christianity. High caste Hindus would enjoy their sense of superiority as long as it is based on their social standing in society (based on their learning), but there would be no superiority based on religion. Vivekananda did not do would-be Christians in India a favour when he said, "God forbid anyone should change their religion." It was meant in a good sense really, to promote respect for all religions, and award them equal status. Yet I say, "God forbid anyone should be prevented from changing their religion, if they so chose!" I'm not sure if there is a legal component that prohibits missionary work for fear of "forced" conversions. How much that legal component may be a preventive measure because of the history of forced conversions to Islam, in addition to the fear that local/overseas Christian missionaries, would change the social hierarchy established by Hinduism thousands of years ago, I don't know. By the Hindu caste arrangement, even if a low caste Hindu got good education and earned loads of money, he would still remain a low caste Hindu you see. One must compare it to the situation of blacks and colored people in white societies.

If one were to classify skin colour as caste: the whites would be the Brahmins, the olive skinned would be the Kshatriyas, the yellow skinned would be the Vaishyas and the brown skinned would be Sudras,and the blacks would be the outcastes. A class system based on the colour of skin is somewhat disingenious and ridiculous because no one can help the number of pigments one is born with. The myth about superiority of the race based on the number of pigments is possible as long as the whites accomplish more than the people with other skin colours. At least the Hindu caste system was originally based on the professions the various members of the society practised. Of course there is no merit in either systems.

Best wishes
Soja

PS: Btw I'm female. John is my father's first name, in accordance with the custom in my community!

My apologies for not taking the time to find the correct verse about the relationship of men to women as written in the NT. Professor Berlinerblau quoted the correct verse in his post.

Posted by Jacques Berlinerblau on January 11, 2008 12:57 AM:

Here is the passage from Ephesians 5:22-25 in the King James Translation (I have bolded the relevant sections):

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. (23) For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body. (24) Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. (25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

The verse does say that wives should submit to their husbands. It does not say, as Huckabee implies, that husbands too -- in some grand spirit of aforetime marital egalitarianism -- should submit to their wives. Husbands are enjoined to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. The men do the loving. The women do the submitting. (I repeat that I can't tell yet if this gendered division of labor is something that the SBC document concurs with).

I have noticed in previous posts that little mistakes like this happen all the time with the Bible. I make them frequently as well...

Mullah Revert,

Your quran 5:33 has Allah commanding you and your ummah to crucify and cut limbs. You want to run from the ahdeeth held as Correct and valid for over a thousand years run but how can you run from Quran 5:33? Mullah Revert, is crucifixion torture or not? Is cutting of limbs barbaric or not?

The kafirs can you see the worshipers of Muhammad dancing around the simple fact : they cannot bring themselves to say that crucifixion is torture and barbarous and the Allah of the Quran codifies that torture for the humans.

the united states has recently abolishd its definition of torture.

there is, currently, no definition of torture.

i have hopes that it will be reinistituted when the next admin takes office.

as it stands today- we have abolsihed it.

if it cannot be defined, no one can be charged with it

its called the military commission act of 2006

do your own homework-its a fact-
go to whitehouse.gov- or amnesty international for the breakdown

the rest of the misinformation provided as fact- or ahadeeth-

are lies-

dont try to use the constitution of the US when you have no idea what laws are in motion now

Mischka,

I am starting to think that you do not understand english. So let me try to say it once again.

1. I showed you a sahih hadith in which Muhammad tortured the Ukl tribesmen as punishment for murder.
2. I showed you that the US constitution and most civilized countries of the world prohibit "unusal and cruel punishments". Torture (Burning of eyes, cutting of limbs, etc is torture).
3. I asked you to clearly take a stand that the torture ordered by Muhammad was wrong, and that Allah ordering torture is wrong (Crucifixion and cutting of limbs in 5:32 is torture).
4. You could do neither. You went around and around trying to justify the torture.

So here is the question and try to answer (Yes or no should be sufficient):

1. Burning of eyes, cutting of limbs, and bleeding to death even as punishment for murder is barbaric and Muhammad was being barbaric when he ordered that to be done to the Ukl tribesmen. Yes or No?

2. The punishment specified in 5:33 of crucifixion and cutting of limbs are barbaric punishments. Yes or No?

Moody and Rudy, you two need some pills and a good nights rest. Stay away from the internet especially when discussing Islam, Islam is injurious to health (mental/physical).

Soja John,
Thank you for the insightful posts explaining Christianity then Paul and providing a window into the Eastern Christians mind. I heard an interesting story about Christian conversions in India. It’s been said that the upper cast Hindus loose control over the lower cast people when the lower casts convert. A story goes about a Brahmans servant who did not show up to work for many days. After the stench in his house became unbearable he sought out his "sweeper" and confronted him. The "sweeper" told his former boss that he no longer worked for him and is now saved (accepted Jesus). Also, he told his boss that his god was far superior to the Brahmans idols and that if he did not mend his ways he was going to hell!!!

Mischka,
You are not answering Kafirs questions at all!! You may think you are but you are NOT. About 5:32 - I have mentioned in the past and so has Ibrahim, 5:32 makes no sense in the koran, you kill a man, then you've killed one man. Please read Ibrahim's post and see AGAIN that this verse was plagiarized by Mohammed/Allah from Jewish scripture, so please see how it was used in its original context.

Strange you bring up verse 24:2,3 - Are you not ashamed of this verse? Don't you want to hide this verse away and pretend it wasn't there? Why does your god fear an adulteress so much to force administration of 100 lashes? Do you know that any healthy person man/woman cannot sustain 100 lashes in a single day? This punishment has to be administrated over a period of several days.
What is wrong with Mohammed/Allah that they have to implement such a barbaric punishment for a woman who commits adultery? Is Allah afraid of sex? A desire he created in people? A woman may commit adultery for many reasons; one being her husband is a bad match for her. If my wife were to ever commit adultery, I as a mere mortal would no doubt be very upset, but never for even a second can I entertain the thought of her being lashed a 100 times, NEVER. What has your religion made you into?

Why does Mohammed/Allah gloat in the torture of a criminal? It is quite obvious that Mohammed authored the quran himself, don't you think? The creator of humans could never speak like that to his creation, NEVER.

You say; "I dont understand why these crimes are not punishable?"
Actually these crimes are punishable, however advanced societies strive for sane and humane ways of punishment but never as prescribed by your "last" prophet.

soja- go google shura- learn something

why are you so determined to prove the superiority of christian catholicism to me?
ive been there and done that.

ive said many times, demoizing or attmeptingto demonize the "other" islam in this case- does nothing to angelicize your own beliefs.

its not a competition soja!

and what about indonesia?

how does that fit in with your theory?
it doesnt!

and its the largest muslim population on the
planet-

260 million i believe-

none of them converted by sword, but conviction!
since youre so big on conviction-
surely you must respect and admit that is remarkable-
also- it dismissed your theory as incorrect

you keep coming in on muslim posts, friendly at first, and then you start defaming islam- every time- give it up or at least dont pretend to be talking to me as an excuse to vilify islam.

indonesia soja-
invalidates your claim

Kafir -

"You have shown yourself and your Islam."

Really? And your pea-sized brain was able to grasp my Islam??? The typical ex-Muslim is just like you - narrow-minded and lazy.

"You view torturing of another human as justice and appropriate."

WHEN HAVE I SAID THAT? PROVE IT TO ME RIGHT NOW ON THIS POST. WHEN HAVE I SAID THAT? I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THIS LIAR OF A KAFIR PROVE HIS IDIOT ACCUSATIONS WITH SOMETHING OTHER THEN LIES.

"You have shown that your Islam induces you to worship a monster who burnt peoples eyes, and cut off their hands and feet, and who denied water to those dying of such inhuman atrocities."

You keep repeating this tired old line knowing full well that Christianity has its own bloody past. You are a BIGOT and anit-Muslim. YOU ARE NOT ONLY ANTI-ISLAM BUT ALSO ANTI-MUSLIM. You harbor negativity and hate in your evil little heart for Muslims.

"You choose to defend such inhumanity in the name of Allah that commands you and yours to do such evil."

NAME A VERSE IN THE QUR'AN THAT TELLS MUSLIMS TO BE THE AGGRESSORS AND COMMIT VIOLENCE IN THE NAME OF RELIGION.

PROVE YOUR LIES - RIGHT HERE AND RIGHT NOW. IF YOU DONT - YOU ARE THE COWARD I KNOW YOU ARE.

"Anyone who can read and will read your statements and mine can and will judge for themselves."

YES THEY WILL - that you are a bigot and also racist. You were probably shunned by the Muslim community for doing something terrible and here you are!!!

"Being called a bigot and other names by some one who promotes such inhumanity as you have backed is an honor for me."

I didnt know Kafir had moments where he could understand the word HONOR - let alone be honored. You sound miserable Kafir and I am glad that you are not Muslim - we dont need idiot-talk like yours polluting the world.

"I just hope that many many Muslims do get to read and see what being a Kafir does to the human "soul".

It takes its toll on the soul - how bitter of a person is this Kafir?

How much time do you think he wastes everyday seething on these boards and panting out his anger against Muslims?

This is not a rational mind nor will it ever be one that can embrace ANY religion.

Aside: I mentioned three Cs with regard to Kerala, and forgot what the third C stood for in my previous post. I have now remembered. It is "Commerce," meaning trade. Kerala had trade (spices, especially pepper, then known as black gold) links with other countries some centuries before the birth of Christ. There was a small settlement of Jews in Kerala who came along the trade route. Apostle Thomas in 52 AD and Muslim missionaries in the 7th century came along the same route.

It must be explained to those who know nothing about Kerala that the communist party there (like in Bengal) has always been one of the many parties in the state. (Many elite intellectuals, including some Nambudiri Brahmins are members!) It is a democratically elected party and has nothing to do with communism as the world knows it. One missionary doctor I knew from Kerala said that Jesus Christ was a good communist and the early Christian communities lived in the sense of good communism too.

Dear Victoria

Islam is the only theocracy, in which legal system and religious laws are one and the same. There is no need to repeat for the upteenth time that Mohammad was a military commander, political and religious leader all rolled into one. Muslims did enforce Islam as part of the political conquest in every country as they made their way as conquerers. That is not my theory, it is a historical fact. If the British Empire had enforced their religion everytime they gained political power, much of the world would be Christian. India was under British rule for 200 years, and yet only 2% of Indians are Christians. They are those who were converted by Apostle Thomas in 52 AD (mostly restricted to Kerala) and Jesuit missionaries fifteen centuries later, well before the arrival of the British. The Apostels of Jesus and Christian missionaries spread the religion without establishing political power.

Since you practised Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and paganism (Wiccan), you know theocracy does not exist in any of those religions. Jesus said, "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, give to God what belongs to God...My kingdom is not of this world."

Jesus had female followers. It is also recorded that two of them were among the first who came upon the empty tomb on the day of Ressurrection. Paul was never in the company of Jesus, and he did not get his instruction from any of the Apostles of Jesus. If Jesus taught that one was to love even one's enemies and do good even to evil people, I do suppose He did not exclude wives. The first chapter of Genesis states that God created man and women as equals. The woman was created as a companion and helpmate for man. Being complementary is not inferior status. In the passage from one of the letters in the NT that is often misquoted to indicate the superiority of men in marriage, the second part of the same verse is omitted, namely that men are expected to love their wives as their own bodies. Unless one considers one's own body inferior, I do not understand how the wife is supposedly inferior. There is nothing in the Bible that stipulates women should inherit only half or quarter of that of a man...(It is found in the Quran though, I'm afraid.)

What is unique about the Quran, in my opinion, is how it criticises other believers and their belief on several ocassions, how the Jews and Christians have got their own Scripture wrong. It is most bizarre indeed, considering almost all the of good religious parts are borrowed directly from the Bible. No other religious text I have read makes it a point to criticise other religions. Maybe you can quote passages from other Scripture if I'm wrong?

Muslims could find common ground with Jews and Muslims based on the passages in the Quran that is common to the two religions. After all Jesus is at least a prophet in the Quran and there are several Old Testament prophets mentioned too. Find the teachings that are common and good for all. That is the only way to build bridges. Otherwise one must just remain content at respecting the other and agree to disagree.

Best wishes
Soja

Mischka,

You have shown yourself and your Islam. You view torturing of another human as justice and appropriate. You have shown that your Islam induces you to worship a monster who burnt peoples eyes, and cut off their hands and feet, and who denied water to those dying of such inhuman atrocities. You choose to defend such inhumanity in the name of Allah that commands you and yours to do such evil.

Anyone who can read and will read your statements and mine can and will judge for themselves. Being called a bigot and other names by some one who promotes such inhumanity as you have backed is an honor for me. I just hope that many many kafirs do get to read and see what Islam does to the human "soul".

Kafir - you are an embarassment

"Her post above speaks for itself."

SPELL OUT EXACTLY WHAT MY POST SAYS TO YOU. You are a bigot who has a personal agenda against Islam - go and beat your head against a wall if it didnt work for you.

"The kafirs should take note and see what attitudes and what flexibility and morality a USA born and USA educated moderate muslim holds."

How would you know anything about flexibility and morality Kafir???? You are a KAFIR after all. What can the world expect from someone who doesnt even believe in God, morals, etc??? Aside from bigotry, racism, prejudice, etc. - what else would you be bringing to the table with your confused little mind???

I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BELIEVE IN MY RELIGION - YOU CANNOT AND ARE NO ONE TO TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT????? Your narrow-minded, prejudiced mind does not understand Islam and that is fine.

There is more good in Islam then you will ever know - you are simply bitter. Just a bitter soul who is out trying to make a hero out of himself by beating his hairy chest on these blogs - thats it.

YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO IMPOSE YOUR IDIOT THOUGHTS ON ME - JUST AS I DO NOT IMPOSE MY BELIEFS ON YOU.

Mischka, the one who finds cutting of limbs, burning of eyes, bleeding to death, denying of water to the thirsty, as punsihment fitting the crime could not find the humanity within her to be able to see whether these barbric Islamic Sharia punishments are "cruel and unusal".

She can find the anger to yell at me because I spit at her Muhammad, the long dead 7th century arab warlord, but she is unable to find the voice to denounce the barbarity of cutting of hands and feet, butning of eyes, or even of crucifixion.

Her post above speaks for itself. The kafirs should take note and see what attitudes and what flexibility and morality a USA born and USA educated moderate muslim holds. What can be expected from those born and raised in Islamic countries? When they come and settle in the west, how many are really capable of understanding the change between their brain damaged need for the 7th century Islamic Sharia and the modern world?

And Mischka is the moderate of the moderate Muslims. The others who have posted here are far more hard nosed than her, but they are more careful and do not speak their mind as easily. They hide behind lies and silence.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

You noted in a "pity fit": "besides- one(christianity) does'nt gain credibilty by demonizing the other-(islam)

it gains crediblitiy by being fair and just."

Christianity is not demonizing Islam, Islam demonizing itself by following the words and ways of a long-dead, womanizing, hallucinating, illiterate, warmongering Arab named Mohommed and his plagiarizing scribes.

The demons of the demented and their pretty wingie, talking, flying, fictional thingie counter parts are however the same in both religions. (Hmmm, how did that come about???)
Maybe you should sponsor a joint Muslim/Christian exorcism to officially remove these "wingie thingies" from our brainwashed minds.

Kafir wrote -

"Mischka, born in USA, educated in USA, and obviously young and intelligent and who obviously does not like to lie. When confronted with obvious barbarity of Allah and Muhammad is rendered immobile."

HUNH??? When was I rendered immobile??? I answered every single one of your questions with a proof from the Qur'an. Either you are blind or maybe schizophrenic? Something is wrong with you...

" She is unable to even utter or think that burning of eyes, bleeding to death, or cutting of limbs is wrong."

Interesting - I specifically said that the punishment should fit the crime. If a criminal goes to trial and is found guilty - there should be a sentence and the Islamic state ONLY has the power to carry out that sentence - not decide it.

"If anyone else other than Muhammad had done it, she would be the first one vocally denouncing it."

Have I denounced anyone here? No - unless it was people like Deb or Kafir for their narrow-minded and unknowledgable views.

"She thinks that saying that wanting Sharia for the American people is not acceptable and puts the american muslims in trouble and hence she will not say it but side steps it by saying she wants what is best for people."

If the Qur'an was followed as a rule - I think it would and could work beautifully. I didnt sidestep a single thing. I answered you loud and clear - its you who puts your hands on your ears and pretends not to hear it. That is your right and also foolishness.

"But everything she has written, everything she says, screams that she truly believes that Quran and its Allah is best for the all the people."

Kafir - being a Kafir - you have not read the Qur'an. Therefore, you cannot understand.

"Imposing her beliefs? Her beliefs amounts to "crucifixion and cutting of limbs" because allah wants it."

Coercion is wrong in Islam and the Qur'an is strictly against it. I actually posted a verse here a while ago stating that much. Your points are again foolish and frivolous.

"Now if this is the mental state of person as educated and as nice as mischka, imagine the hold of Islam on an average muslim around the world."

If you are sooooooooooo scared of Islam and Muslims - find a cave and hide in it. Please dont bother Muslims with this rubbish just because you dont like Islam.

YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DO AS YOU PLEASE - BUT YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT TO MISREPRESENT THE RELIGION JUST BECAUSE IT DIDNT WORK FOR YOU.

I AM SO SICK OF YOUR WHINING AND CRYING ABOUT HOW UPSET YOU ARE WITH ISLAM. FIND AN INSTITUTION IF IT HAD SUCH A TERRIBLE IMPACT ON YOUR FRAGILE MENTAL STATE.

it is extremely odd to come to a post about bhutto- who actually WAS a leader of a country, and imply some inferiority because hillary MAY become president? (empress)

besides- one(christianity) doesnt gain credibilty by demonizing the other-(islam)

it gains crediblitiy by being fair and just

Anonymous aka Rudy aka bullet boy:
What does the year Galatians was writen has to do with the barbaric way you treat your women?
You quote from somewhwere in the NT that women are not alowed to be bishops , I suppose, as your "proof" of how badly Christians treat their women. Hogwash! This is the type of childish mentality that dragged the once civilized Middle East to the Stone Age it is in now.For your information we are about to elect a woman not as Bishop but as an Emperor of the strongest, richest and greatest empire that this planet had ever seen.You and those like you can take that to the bank.

UNANIMOUS: You did not know about this when you wrote about Muslim women:

Biblical references promoting female inferiority:
1) Corinthians 11:3: "...Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and the head of Christ is God. (NIV)". There is some debate among theologians about the translation of the Greek word "kephale" as "head." However that word is universally used in New Testament translations.

2)Corinthians 11:7-9:"For a man...is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head." (NIV) This refers to the practice of women wearing hair covering as a sign of inferiority. This is not longer widely observed today.
bullet 1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "...women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says, If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (NIV) This is a curious passage. It appears to prohibit all talking by women during services. But it contradicts verse 11:5, in which St. Paul states that women can actively pray and prophesy during services.

3)phesians 5:22-24: "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife...wives should submit to their husbands in everything." (NIV)
bullet 1 Timothy; various passages: Conservative theologians date this "pastoral epistle" as having being written prior to 65 CE, and assign its authorship to Paul. Liberal theologians generally believe that it was written by an unknown author during the first half of the second century, a half-century or longer after St. Paul's execution. If the latter is true then the epistle's many passages reflecting female inferiority can be attributed to a gradual reinstatement of patriarchal authority by the early Church. Some of these passages are:

4)Timothy 2:11-15:"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent..." (NIV) Some Biblical scholars believe that woman and man should be replaced by wife and husband in the above passage. This would mean that the passage would not refer to women teaching men in the church, but rather wives teaching their husbands within the home. 5
bullet 1 Timothy 3:2: "Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife..." (NIV) This would seem to imply that all overseers (bishops) must be male.
bullet 1 Timothy 3:8: "Deacons likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere..." (NIV)
bullet Titus 1:6: "An elder must be blameless, a husband of but one wife" (NIV). Women are apparently excluded from the position of elder or bishop.

5)Titus 2:4: "...train the younger women...to be subject to their husbands." There is no indication of equal power sharing in marriage.
bullet 1 Peter 3:7: Women are referred to as "the weaker vessel" in comparison to their husbands

horizontal rule
Who wrote Ephesians, Colossians, etc?

The New Testament passages which downgrade the status of women are in books which appear to be have been written by Paul and Peter. Until modern times, Christian theologians universally accepted the two apostles as the true authors. That belief is still followed by almost all Fundamentalist and other Evangelical theologians. Since the authors identified themselves as Paul or Peter in their writings, and since all books in the Bible are considered free of error as originally written, then conservative Christians conclude that Paul and Peter must have authored the books.

6)Ephesians: This was perhaps written circa 95 CE, about 30 years after Paul's death.
bullet Colossians: This was written, in part, to combat Gnostic thought which did not become a concern to the church until the early second century, many decades after Paul's execution.
bullet 2 Thessalonians: This was probably written circa 75 to 90 CE, at least one decade after St. Paul's death
7)1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus were written sometime during the first half of the second century - perhaps circa 130 CE.
bullet Hebrews is impossible to date with any certainty. It is believed to have been written sometime between 60 and 96 CE. Its author is unknown.
8)1 Peter is apparently an early document, because the author refers to "elders" as the only level of church leadership. Deacons, deaconesses and bishops are not mentioned. Liberal theologians disagree about the authorship of this book.
bullet 2 Peter was written circa 125 to 150 CE.

soja- your conjecture on the life of paul is fine, but is conjecture.

its not my theory soja, its a theory of some priests. i dont realy care at all what paul was.
but his constant references to his own weakness of the flesh that was never identified is certainly an item for general curiosity.

"What could be more elitist than combining the priest, the judge and the ruler?"

where do you get this? this is your idea, not islam.
every muslim is equal before the god to every other muslim.
no heirarchy means no heirarchy.

it means every person has access to the god, to their religion, not subordiante to priest, bishop or pope.

go google shura.

no matter how you come at it- it is what it is.

youre trying to impose your own need for a heirarchal structure onto islam.

where is the priest the judge and the ruler combined?
were all our own preist ruler and judge-
what could be more fair?

i dont understand why it bothers you so much-
how does the fairness of my own religion affect you or your faith?
it doesnt-
give credit where it is due.
go google shura- (not wikipedia please)

personally, hinutva nationalism is a pretty elitist philosophy, id say bordering on fascism.

like what just happened to the christians in orissa.

but to be honest, im pretty preoccupied with american politics right now as our caucuses are n progress.

peace

Victoria and Mischka:
"For the life of me I could never understand why any sane woman would want to be a Muslim. Their religion treats them as a third class citizens in this life and ,even worse, they have no hope for a better afterlife. That is unless they will somehow teach themselves to enjoy watching their men folk each carousing with 72 black eyed nymphs".

It is claimed that Catholic nuns and priests who fight for the rights of tribals and work very hard to uplift them socially, are unpopular because the higher caste Hindus lose their hold on the out-castes. Humanitarian Hindus should give this concern serious thought and rise to the greatness that is inherent in Hinduism, namely grant every Indian the freedom to worship any God, even if the Ishata Devata happens to be called Jesus Christ. What does it matter to a Hindu if some choose Jesus Christ as their Ishta Devata? Does it prevent any Hindu from worshipping any of the gods of the Hindu pantheon?

To Anonymous who posted 8 Jan 2008, 10:27 AM

1. India is a secular democracy, not a Hindu theocracy. There is no such thing as Hindu theocracy in the first place. Hinduism does not force its belief on anyone.

2. India accepts the UN Charter of Universal Human Rights which gives everyone freedom to practice any religion. The right to practice any religion includes the right to change one's religion.

3. Hinduism is a con-federation of religions. No Hindu priest could not prescribe any particular god to any Hindu. People choose a wide variety of their "Ishta Devata." So if such freedom is natural to Hinduism, why should not any Indian choose to worship a God who is not from the Hindu pantheon?

4. Many religions have co-existed in India from the earliest times. Why the sudden anger at some people wanting to convert from Hinduism now? Hindus had converted to Buddhism in large numbers, and most of them were reconverted to Hinduism based on the work done by Shankaracharya. Shankaracharya did not force anyone to reconvert to Hinduism. On what basis is force being used to keep Hindus from converting to other religions?

5. The caste system is a reality of Hinduism, as is reincarnation. Why should not a Hindu, if he/she so wills not want to follow a religion that has no caste system and promises freedom from repeated births and deaths?

6. My ancestors converted to Christianity freely. They did not do it for material benefits, but from religious conviction. If a Nambudiri Brahmin, well versed in Hindu Scripture, could convert to Christianity based on what Apostle Thomas preached in 52 AD, without having nothing to gain by way of escaping the low caste (and in fact stood to lose their privileges as Brahmins), why should not a low caste Hindu not want to convert to Christianity based on religious conviction?

7. Does not the refusal to let Catholic nuns and priests work with the tribals constitute a breach of the freedom to practice religion? Hinduism after all considers the tribals as outcastes. Is there any merit or nobility in a Brahmin's claim that lower caste Hindu should remain a low caste Hindu and should not be allowed to escape it by converting to another faith? Does not force used to keep Hindus from converting to other faiths against the basic tenets of Hinduism itself, which recognises that God is one who is called by different names and is worshipped in different ways? On what basis does any Hindu appoint themselves the guardian of another man's soul?

Dear Victoria

Here my thoughts on your comments about the lack of elitism in Islam.

What could be more elitist than combining the priest, the judge and the ruler? Islam as Mohammad founded it was a theocracy. The priest equivalent, the judge and the ruler was the same. Isn't a combination of spiritual, legal and political power, the Shariah Law that demanded unquestioned obedience, the ultimate heady combination of power?

On Vivekanda's comments:

I hope you don't misunderstand Vivekanda's description of Mohammad. As you are aware, from a Hindu perspective, a man like Mohammad who led armies and had many wives after the age of fifty, does not fit the model of a sannyasi. Buddha and Jesus and other religious founders were after all celibate too. Vivekanda did not spare even Hindus. For instance he called Kerala a lunatic asylum of castes! Nambudiri Brahmins of Kerala are the most orthodox of Hindu Brahmins; they consider even Brahmins from other states as lower in caste! Nambudiris have the most complex rules about interaction with people from other castes (even within their own) that even Orthodox Jewish customs seem simple in comparison. Yet no Keralite Hindu issued the equivalent of "fatwa" on Vivekanda for his comments. In fact the Nambudiri Brahmins in Kerala admit how the complex rules permitting only absolute minimum contact with other people worked to their disadvantage. Nambudiri Brahmin converts to Christianity retained many of those crazy customs for many centuries, which is why Christianity did not spread outside Kerala, although it came to Kerala as early as 52 AD through Apostle Thomas. Luckily both the Hindu and Christian community in Kerala changed their social customs with time, although the change was long in coming and was influenced by other social changes that forced the change. Luckily too there is no law ingrained in any of these social customs that could prevent any reformation.

If the worst intention about Paul is to be assumed (the social custom of the day is a perfect explanation too) could it not be more appropriately concluded that Paul was probably distracted by the voice of women during worship because he was celibate, and did not want other men to be distracted during worship, rather than that he was homosexual?

Dear Victoria

Let me add my two cents on your thoughts about Paul. As to concluding that he was probably a homosexual, the person who would imply that because no information about Paul exists, says more about himself than about Paul. It is always easy to let one's imagination run wild when there is a vacuum, and the result reveals more about the person who is filling the vacuum. (There are those who insist Jesus could not possibly have been celibate either and ascribe lovers to Him, although Jesus always lived a very public life, spending all day in the company of His disciples and the people and always spending much time in prayer, both in the evening and early in the morning and the Pharisees and religious leaders of His day kept a close watch on Him waiting to catch him out.These people forget Jesus died while still a young man, and He was aware of His mission and spent time preparing intensely for it. Nobody would doubt it if an Olympic athlete said he/she had no time for relationships because he/she had to spend too much time in training to devote to a relationship.)

Paul was the only one among the Apostles of Jesus who remained unmarried. This has a simple explanation. All the other Apostles were already married when Jesus chose them. Paul felt called to take the Gospel to the Gentiles. He was constantly on the go, traveling far. He got beaten, thrown into prison... several times in the course of his work. Under those circumstances it would have been impossible to have a wife around. He was very much like an explorer going into the wild. He did not want to put a woman at risk. His single life gave him more mobility. Tagging along a wife and several kids along the way would not have been practical. When such perfectly logical explanations exist, why do you choose to believe the worst, which has no basis, except that somebody thought it up as a possibility?

The role of women, even if the worst is to be assumed about Paul based on his instruction for women in his day to remain silent in Church, is not to be compared with the status of women in the Quran I read.

Was the instruction for women to remain silent in church the only thing Paul wrote about? Does that sum up his work as the driven, dedicated and passionate Apostle of Jesus, who ultimately offered his very life for the sake of his faith?

Gandhi is more properly viewed as the ‘Father of Pakistan’ rather than the ‘Father of the Indian nation’.

Whatever the "causes" of the partition, the brute facts cannot be belied: down to the present day, the partition remains the single largest episode of the uprooting of people in modern history, as between 12 to 14 million left their home to take up residence across the border.

The estimates of how many people died vary immensely, generally hovering in the 500,000 to 1.5 million range, and many scholars have settled upon the nice round figure of 1 million...

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/southasia/History/Independent/partition.html

Victoria aka OBG,

I would rank Paul's treatment of women on par with your buddy Mo's and his band of merry men. And as has been noted previously, much of this Islamic treatment was borrowed from Paul and the pseudo Pauls.

So where is then your commentary about said koran's passages about its treatment of women?

And could you supply references supporting your other comments i.e. "no one had ever thought of it before him or after-" (Mo and his merry men surely came after Paul) and "some theologists have speculated.... about Paul's homosexuality". Books, journals with page numbers???

yes lib- paul did indeed invent misongyny.

no one had ever thought of it before him or after-

what a genius contribution to the world of ideas

it dosnt take a rhodes scholar to intuit that paul had a strong aversion to women-

some theologists have speculated that the sin of the flesh that paul lamented over and over again about in his own makeup- but never identified may have been homosexuality.

I beg to differ on the issues related to Modi and RSS.

The author says RSS is against the greatest saint swami vivekananda but I have studied in a college called Vivekananda college which is run by RSS - inspired people. What I emphasize here is that it is a false propaganda to keep RSS and Vivekananda against one another.

Now about Gandhi, though RSS opposes his political moves it accepts most of his values like being simple, Swadeshi, Ramarajya, being honest and love. To give a proof, a poem called Ekathmata stotra which is sung by every swayam sevak contains a mention of Gandhi along with other so many great souls of this country(I mean India). Secondly, it is said by the supreme court of India that there was no relation between Godse and RSS, for your kind information.

Hope it helps to clear some of the things related to Hindutva.

And after 330 plus comments, it still comes down to that famous quote:

Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe!!!!

Rudy, Rudy, Rudy,

If as you say Thomas Aquinas noted those things about women, then I would put him in the classification of "prudish" Paul.

To wit:

(as noted previously),

Are you trying to prove that Islamic women are better off than Christian women? Considering the restrictions imposed by the koran on women you are not going to win the debate. I assume your issue is Paul/Aquinas? thinking about women as spelled out in his and the pseudo Paul epistles. I would rate it flawed first century CE thinking/conduct and such passages should be deleted. Also, (as suggested many times) see the discussion of said passages in Professor Crossan and Reed's book, In Search of Paul and in Professor Bruce Chilton's book, Rabbi Paul.

Professor Chilton pulls no punches in criticizing one of the founders of Christianity. Basically Paul was a "prude". An excerpt for Chilton's book,

"He (Paul) feared the turn-on of women's voices as much as the sight of their hair and skin..... At one point he even suggests that the sight of female hair might distract any "pretty wingie talking fictional thingies" in church attendance (1 Cor. 11:10). Simply add Paul's thinking about women to the list of flaws in the foundations of Christianity.

Professor Chilton btw is a Professor of Religion at Bard College and a priest at the Free Church of St. John in Barrytown, NY.

Hmmm, do you think maybe that Mo's scribes simply enhanced Paul's thinking about women when they wrote the koran??? Absolutely!!!!

Mischka:
You quote to Kafir a verse from Quran 5:32 which states" Whoever kills a soul kills all humanity……". You and others seem to relish in quoting this verse which does not make any sense within the literal context, because killing one man is simply killing one man, nor in the context of your tribalistic religion. The reason is because this verse was misquoted from the Jewish Talmud (Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5). There it makes sense because the Jewish scribe who wrote it was explaining verse 4:10 in the book of Exodus. In the Talmud it states “We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, “The voice of thy brother’s bloods crieth”(Gen.4:10). It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race”.
This is how the Jewish scribe explains Exodus 4:10 and you must admit that here it does make some sense.

Mischka wrties:
"

Kafir -

I am flattered that you are so concerned with my well-being. But I can assure you - its not necessary.

"You cannot side step it by "what is best for the people"."

I am not sidestepping it at all Kafir. I DO want what is best for the people. However, I will not be tricked into imposing my beliefs on other people. Sorry - better luck next time."

You are sorely mistaken. I am not that concerned by your well being. I do not even know you. I am sure you can take care of yourself. I am very concerned for the wellfare and health of my country and my fellow citizens. You have demonstrated a couple of things that i want the Kafirs to take a clear, cold and close look.

Mischka, born in USA, educated in USA, and obviously young and intelligent and who obviously does not like to lie. When confronted with obvious barbarity of Allah and Muhammad is rendered immobile. She is unable to even utter or think that burning of eyes, bleeding to death, or cutting of limbs is wrong. If anyone else other than Muhammad had done it, she would be the first one vocally denouncing it. She thinks that saying that wanting Sharia for the American people is not acceptable and puts the american muslims in trouble and hence she will not say it but side steps it by saying she wants what is best for people. But everything she has written, everything she says, screams that she truly believes that Quran and its Allah is best for the all the people. Imposing her beliefs? Her beliefs amounts to "crucifixion and cutting of limbs" because allah wants it. Now if this is the mental state of person as educated and as nice as mischka, imagine the hold of Islam on an average muslim around the world. The devastating hold the death cult has is truly mind boggling. If Muhammad burned eyes then it is okay to burn eyes because Muhammad did it. If Muhammad married a six year old and fudged the little girl when she was nine then it is okay to do that because Muhammad did it. If Muhammad beheaded kafir that is moral, if Muhammad owned slaves and traded slave then that is moral as well. That in a nutshell is the entire morality of Islam ... What ever muhammad did is moral and acceptable, and no one but no one can criticize it or question it. As the Sahih hadith goes, "Anyone insults the Prophet Muhammad, Kill him", no muslim can question Muhammad or the quran and remain a muslim. All the soul searching the Kafirs will see from the moderates like Eboo and others will be no better than the sidestepping demonstrated by Mischka. But fundamentally the most moderate of muslims will be incapable of examing or questioning of Muhammad or his Quran.

Mischka,

Your Allah's punishment of cutting of limbs and crucifixion is worse than barbaric. It is evil. Your prophet for burning eyes and torturing people to death is not the best of humans but the lowest of scums. He showed himself for who he really was. And if you believe in God then just hope that he does not end up asking you where your intelligence and brain was when you could not see the evil that Muhammad's actions represented. I also know that you are under the sway of the cult and terrified of the Fire of Hell, and you are incapable of thinking about Muhammad. The slightest thought against Muhammad and you run screaming in fear of hell. Unfortunately that is the burden of being born into islam.

Kafir -

I am flattered that you are so concerned with my well-being. But I can assure you - its not necessary.

"You cannot side step it by "what is best for the people"."

I am not sidestepping it at all Kafir. I DO want what is best for the people. However, I will not be tricked into imposing my beliefs on other people. Sorry - better luck next time.

From the Internet:

THE STATUS OF WOMEN IN THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES
(OLD TESTAMENT)
Passages treating women as inferior to men

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Sponsored link.

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How the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) generally viewed women:

Women's behavior was extremely limited in ancient times, much as the women of Afghanistan during the recent Taliban oppression. They were:
bullet Unmarried women were not allowed to leave the home of their father.
bullet Married women were not allowed to leave the home of their husband.
bullet They were normally restricted to roles of little or no authority.
bullet They could not testify in court.
bullet They could not appear in public venues.
bullet They were not allowed to talk to strangers.
bullet They had to be doubly veiled when they left their homes. 1

In the Hebrew Scriptures, women were generally viewed in a negative light:

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Women were considered inferior to men:
bullet Genesis 1:27 to 3:24:
bullet In the first creation story (Genesis 1:27) God is described as creating man, both male and female at the same time: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." 2 This might be interpreted as implying equality between the two genders.
bullet But in the second creation story, (Genesis 2:7) God formed only a man: "...the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Realizing that he needed a helper (Genesis 2:18), God marched all of the animals past Adam (Genesis 2:19-20) looking for a suitable animal. Finding none suitable, God created Eve out of one of Adam's ribs. The term "helper" has historically been interpreted as implying an inferior role for Eve, although some modern interpreters believe that the word can mean a companion of equal status. "...the Hebrew word translated "helper" is used twenty-one times in the Old Testament: twenty of these cases refer to help from a superior." (3) In Genesis 2:27, Adam later asserts his authority over Eve by naming her: "...she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." In ancient times, one was believed to have authority over a person or thing by naming it.
bullet Genesis 3:16: Adam's role is to be Eve's master. The King James Version (KJV), New International Version (NIV), and Revised Standard Version (RSV) use the term "rule" to describe Adam's role over Eve: "...thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." The Living Bible uses the term "master". The Modern Language Bible uses "dominate". By implication, all of their descendents are would have the same power imbalance between spouses.
bullet A man could marry (literally "become the master of the woman") as often as he desired. In Genesis 4:19, Lamech became the first known polygamist when he took two wives. Subsequent men who took multiple wives included: Esau with 3 wives; Jacob: 2; Ashur: 2; Gideon: many; Elkanah: 2; David: many; Solomon: 700 wives of royal birth; Rehaboam: 3; Abijah: 14. Jehoram, Joash, Ahab, Jeholachin and Belshazzar also had multiple wives.
bullet Genesis 16:2 : Sarah gave permission to her husband Abraham to engage in sexual intercourse with her maid, Hagar: "Sarai said unto Abram...I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her." Presumably this was done without the consent of Hagar, who had such a low status in the society of the day that she was required to submit to multiple rapes at her owner's command.
bullet Genesis 19:8: The men of Sodom gathered around Lot's house, and asked that he bring his two guests out so that the men can "know" them. This is frequently interpreted as a desire to gang rape the visitors, although other interpretations are possible. Lot offers his two virgin daughters to be raped instead: He is recorded as saying: "I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes." Yet, even after this despicable act, Lot is still regarded as an honorable man, worth saving from the destruction of the city. Allowing one's daughters to be sexually assaulted by multiple rapists appears to be treated as a minor transgression, because of the low status of the young women. More details on Genesis 19.
bullet Genesis 21:10: A man could simultaneously keep numerous concubines. These were sexual partners of an even lower status than a wife was. As implied in this verse she could be dismissed when no longer needed: Sarah is recorded as saying: "...Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac." Abraham had two concubines; Gideon: at least 1; David: many; Nahor: 1; Jacob: 1; Eliphaz: 1; Gideon: 1; Caleb: 2; Manassah: 1; Saul: 1; David: at least 10; Rehoboam: 60; Solomon: 300; an unidentified Levite: 1; Belshazzar: more than 1.
bullet In Exodus 1:15-16, the Pharaoh ordered the midwives to kill all Jewish boys at birth, because of the threat that they might pose to the kingdom. "And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live." The girls, being considered less important, were not seen as a threat; they were allowed to live.
bullet Exodus 20 & 21: This is perhaps the most misogynistic pair of chapters in the Bible. A number of verses describe a woman as the property of her father. At marriage, her ownership was transferred to her new husband:
bullet Exodus 20:17 lists the last of the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." It is important to realize that a manservent and a maidservant were male and female slaves. They were not a hired butler and maid. The tenth commandment forbids coveting your neighbor's house, wife, male slave female slave, animals or anything else that the neighbor owns. The wife is clearly regarded as equivalent to a piece of property.
bullet Exodus 21:2-4: "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing....If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself." A slaveowner was permitted to give a woman to his male slave as a wife. There is no indication that women were consulted during this type of transaction. After serving six years, he would leave, but his wife and children would remain slaves of the slaveowner. Again, there is no indication that the woman was consulted on this arrangement,
bullet Exodus 21:7: "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do." A father could sell his daughter as a slave. Even though a male slave is automatically given his freedom after 6 years, a female slave remained a slave forever.
bullet Exodus 22:16-17: The first seventeen verses of Exodus 22 deal with restitution in case of stealing, or damage to, a person's property. Verses 16 and 17 deal with the case of a man who seduces a virgin. This was viewed as a property offense against the woman's father. The woman was expected to marry the seducer. If her father refused to transfer ownership of his daughter to the seducer, the latter was required to required to pay money to her father. The money would be in compensation for the damage to the father's property - his daughter. It would be difficult for a non-virgin to marry.
bullet Exodus 21:22-25 describes a situation in which two men are fighting and one hits a pregnant woman. If the woman has a miscarriage because of the blow, the man is punished as the husband decides and must pay a fine for their act - not to the woman, but to her husband, presumably because he has been deprived of a child. The woman had no involvement. Exodus 21:22: "...he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine."
bullet Exodus 23:17 states that only men are required to take part in the feasts of unleavened bread, of harvest and of ingathering: "Three times in the year al

Concerned Christian Now Liberated: Have you read these verses from the Bible:

Quotations: From the Bible
bullet "As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power...." Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,Q92, art. 1, Reply Obj. 1
bullet "And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiasticus, 25:18, 19 & 33. 1
bullet "And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her." Ecclesiastes 7:26, from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament)

Rudy,

If you read what I wrote, you should have noticed that I answered "yes the have". So what should I look up? But you did not answer my questions about why does what christians do matter to questions about Allah and Muhammad?

Mischka,
If you feel better thinking of me as a muslim hater then go right ahead. I do not think of my self as a muslim hater.
Now I showed you that Iran and Saudi Arabia do cut off hands and feet off the theives and the punishment is because it is a Hadd punishment.

You write: "I think that the punishment should fit the crime. HOWEVER, it is left at the discretion of the people to find the proper punishment. Why do you thnk that is? The state CANNOT simply go and cut someone's hands off because the Sharia says so. The accused are to go to trial and the only thing the state can do is simply carry out the sentence. Whether it is the death sentence or not - is not upto the state."

Do you understand that in Islamic Sharia, Hadd punishments are not left to the discretion of the people. People have no say in the matter. The whole idea of Sharia is that it is Allah's law that is applicable and not people's law. Iran and Saudi Arabia cut off the limbs because of Quran 5:33, and no one has ever asked the people. The hand is cut off if the amount stolen is above some threshold. They do not cut off the hand for petty few dollars. But do you think a hand should cut off for any amount? I think the threshold in Iran is about the equivalent of a few hundred dollars. So a horribly nasty person steals, and the he is tried and the state finds all the facts and he is guilty for sure ... you think his hand should be cut off? That is the punishment for theft.

Again I am not disputing capital punishment. Right now the Supereme Court in USA is hearing arguments whether the death penalty can be administered by a lethal injection. Electric chair was discarded because it was shown to cause "too much pain" to who was being put to death. The injection is supposed to put the person to deep sleep and stop all physiological function. The argument being given is that it may still be causing pain to the human who is being killed. That is what is being decided as "cruel and unusal punishment". Now you tell me whether the actions of Muhammad who burns the eyes, cuts the limbs, bleeds the muderers, and denies them water when they are thirsty sounds like justice to you? Crucifixion as justice?

Then you write:
{"Would you like to see Allah's law be supereme law of the land in USA? I am sure the kafirs here really would like to know."

I want what is best for the people.}

You cannot side step it by "what is best for the people". Tell us what is best for people? Do YOU think Sharia as law of the land is best or would be best for the people (your people, the americans) or not? Do you think that that Allah's punishments in Quran 5:33 are best for people (your people, the americans) as punishments for the crime listed in that verse? Should the state crucify those who wage war against Allah and his Messenger, or do mischief in the land?

A. Kafir wrote: "Have christians as a people (collective) used the name of their religion in the past to commit atrocities? "

The answer: Yes, they have. Read the Bible and find out how many times the world 'infidels' has been used in it. Europeans invoked the Bible to justify slavery. I do not either have time or the space to expand on this. You seem to be educated person. You can find out yourself. Do your own research or ask knowledgeable people like historians, sociologists and anthropologists.

I agree with you on one point: religion is part of the culture. But they interact.

repost from another thread-

victoria wrote

"your muslim-bashing for the sake of getting your yayas out.'

"Victoria what you call "muslim-bashing" is concern for victims of FGM, oppression of Muslim women, honour killings, and Muslim against Muslim violence. It is support of Muslims who often have no voice. You are dedicated to Islamic propaganda that pretends there is no problem with Islam. You are the one doing the bashing and trying to stifle free speech.

I commend the Muslims, ex-Muslims and others here who have found their voices and are speaking against Islamic atrocities."

i want to thank those speaking against atrocities too. there seems to be a worldwide movement drawing together many people from many different positions in life who agree -they will expose islam and no longer remain silent..

Rudy writes;
"WRONG! , WRONG! AND WRONG! Mindsets (or world views) are culturally and religiously shaped and not by genes or biology. Not too long ago, racists used to say that black people are inferior because of their genes. That kind of argument was rejected by scientists some time ago.

You refuse to accept that the atrocities committed (you acknowledge them) by non-Muslims were the result of their world views shaped by their religions."

Rudy, religion is only a part of our "social and cultral enviornment". That is one of the excuses that muslims use to try to isolate and claim it is not Islam's fault. Take FGM for instance that was an issue in this disscussion some posts away. Take honor killings for instance that is often laid at the feet of Islam. Muslims always tell us that it is not Islam's fault, but it is cultral. So tell me does the 'mindset' then include stuff more than religion or not? I am sure you will agree that it does. Religion is part of the baggage that determines our mindset and not the only thing. Have christians as a people (collective) used the name of their religion in the past to commit atrocities? Yes they have. The reformation in Europe led to great killings between the protestants and the catholics, and they killed each other with great abandon. As I understand, the hindus and the buddhists have also killed each other in the past based on sectarian differences. Muslims are killing each today based on sectarian differences.
But it is our evolutionary history that dictates and drives how and what we use to create our "mindset". What you are not getting is how does the deeply imbedded problems of Islam get any better because there are problems with other religions? Or are you saying, that I should not ask any questions of Islam, that I should not wonder why Muhammad the prophet of Islam barbarically killed the Ukl tribesmen because christians burnt witches at the stakes a few hundred years ago? What does christianity, judaism, hinduism, etc have anything to do with asking why does the Allah of Islam codify torturing to death as punishment in the Quran?

CCNL -

Have you gone off the deep end?

Kafir -

"The Kafirs in your country really would like to know, beleive me, because you are born an american and educated here and raised here. Do all muslims in USA think that Islamic Sharia punishments are not "cruel and unusal" as you seem to say that you do not?"

You want to know what I really think? I think that the punishment should fit the crime. HOWEVER, it is left at the discretion of the people to find the proper punishment. Why do you thnk that is? The state CANNOT simply go and cut someone's hands off because the Sharia says so. The accused are to go to trial and the only thing the state can do is simply carry out the sentence. Whether it is the death sentence or not - is not upto the state.

"Would you like to see Allah's law be supereme law of the land in USA? I am sure the kafirs here really would like to know."

I want what is best for the people.

I also happen to know that you are a Muslim-hater.

You cannot discuss anything - you can only accuse. Your purpose here to simply throw stones - not to educate yourself.

A. Kafir wrote: "Rudy, human biology and our evolution has a lot to do with what our societies and our "mind set" is. Why didn't their faith prevent them from greed? Biology most likely. The mind set is tribal, is "us versus them", etc. Study of primates and their societies show some of the same underlying behaviors that lead to tribal assualts and warfare."

**********************************************

WRONG! , WRONG! AND WRONG! Mindsets (or world views) are culturally and religiously shaped and not by genes or biology. Not too long ago, racists used to say that black people are inferior because of their genes. That kind of argument was rejected by scientists some time ago.

You refuse to accept that the atrocities committed (you acknowledge them) by non-Muslims were the result of their world views shaped by their religions.

Rudy, Rudy, Rudy,

Getting directly to the problem:(noted many times but needs repeating)

Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe!!!

How to "deflaw" the koran you ask?

Follow these Five Steps:

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a great start for "deflawing" the koran.

(And as has been noted many times, "deflawing Judaism and Christianity is in full swing and was started about 200 years ago) e.g. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

Rudy writes:

"Mischka,
The way these people operate is try to locate the vulnerability of a person. For example, if a person lost his/her job, or was getting a divorce or some other catastrophe. Then at the moment of vulnerability, they try to convince that person that it was all your religion's fault. Those events can happen to any human being and to people of any faith.
They target especially young people because they know that they are especially vulnerable. My advice to you will be to not to enter into any communication with them. They are your enemies, not friends."

Rudy, what in the name of sanity are you talking about? Who is this they? When have I ever said to Mischka that I am her friend? Where have I tried to evangelize her? I have made no bones about the fact that I am not a muslim. I am not a christian either. I am not a hindu. I do not subscribe to any religion at all.

How long will you keep the young in Islam from not thinking on their own? How long will you keep critical thinking away from them? Why do you think my asking questions is taking advantage of her vulnerability? Which vulnerability? Spell it out for her and for me and for the readers. How are we ever going to learn from each other if we cannot talk openly and honestly?

Why don't you tell what is it that I have asked that is so wrong? What is it that I have asked that makes it an exploitation of someone's vulnerability? Speak up, speak your mind.

"Go talk to your father, brother, husband, son or your imam."

You are too ignorant to think independently. Run to a man and submit to his superiority.

"The way these people operate is":

They tell the truth. If you converse with them for too long, you might realize that Islam is flawed. Run muslim woman Run!

Rudy writes:

"What kind of mind set committed those atrocities referred by you of non-Muslim religions against the people of other religions? What created that mind set? Why didn't their faith prevent them from greed?"

Rudy, human biology and our evolution has a lot to do with what our societies and our "mind set" is. Why didn't their faith prevent them from greed? Biology most likely. The mind set is tribal, is "us versus them", etc. Study of primates and their societies show some of the same underlying behaviors that lead to tribal assualts and warfare. Most Religion has been an attempt to break the boundaries of the "us versus them" to step towards universalism; except for Islam. Islam's Allah on the other hand aggravates the "us versus them", he divides the world into true believers and kafirs for eternity, and he hates the kafirs with a passion. Islam is the epitome of "us versus them" and locks the muslims into a perpetual and never ending war against the non-muslims. Islamic Sharia, Islamic history, Islamic customs are all a testimony to that mentality that divides the world into a warfare between "us versus them". Read the Quran, if you have not, and see how your Allah promises unpeakably horror tortures against the unbelievers. Allah the creator of all, actually stoops to curse the jews and christians!!! Imagine an all knowing God, cursing his own creation!!

You are correct. There are good and bad people every where. And I think there are more good people than bad people everywhere. That is why I am sure that there are more good people among the muslims than bad people among the muslims as well. That is why I have nothing against muslims. However, they have never been allowed by Islam to question Islam and Muhammad. The mullahs and the imams pass a fatwa and kill the questioners. That cannot happen because of the net, and that is the reason why the questions about Islam will not go away.

You tell Mischka to run away. Why? Why not step in and answer her questions for her? Why not show her where I am wrong? Why not take my arguments and questions apart and make my statements look silly. Then she would not have to run away would she? Help her. Why do you want her to remain ignorant and in the dark? Help her. Tell me and show me where I am wrong and not understanding. Have an open and honest Dialog. Eboo wants an American Islam. Then let us have an American Islam. Let us treat our fellow citizens with respect, honestly and truthfully. Tell me what is wrong with my questions? Tell me why I should not ask these questions? Tell me why is it that muslims do not want to answer my question forth rightly. What is it that I am missing? What is it that I do not get?

Mischka,

The way these people operate is try to locate the vulnerability of a person. For example, if a person lost his/her job, or was getting a divorce or some other catastrophe. Then at the moment of vulnerability, they try to convince that person that it was all your religion's fault. Those events can happen to any human being and to people of any faith.

They target especially young people because they know that they are especially vulnerable. My advice to you will be to not to enter into any communication with them. They are your enemies, not friends.

A. Kfir wrote: "f you want to know whether christians, hindus, buddhists or zorastrians have committed atrocities in history, the answer is yes they have. Humans will be humans and they will give into greed and other very human vices."
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Question: What kind of mind set committed those atrocities referred by you of non-Muslim religions against the people of other religions? What created that mind set? Why didn't their faith prevent them from greed?

What a game of words you are playing: "Humans will be humans"-- implying humans are evil? What a way to establish your credibility!

No, there are good and bad people everywhere.

Mischka: Run, Mischka, run. Go talk to your father, brother, husband, son or your imam. You are under siege, Mischka.

Mischka,

The jews and the christians gave up the Hammurabi code in the Bible about "an for an eye" a long time ago because it is too barbaric. Is that one of the things that Muslims think is a corruption of Allah's laws? Do you think we should go back to eye for an eye type of justice?

Do you what is the Islamic Sharia punishment for the murder of a non-muslim by a muslim, and what is the difference between that and the punishment for the murder of a muslim by a muslim?

Mischka,

You ask if the crimes should be punished. Of course they should be punished. When have I ever said that they should not be punished. Do you know what the eighth amendment to the American Constitution says?
It is: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." Do you read that cruel and unusal punishments? Do you understand that the state should do justice and not vengence? Do you understand the difference?

Now what your Allah says should be the punishment is "crucifixion and cutting of limbs". Cutting of a theives hand or a foot is not justice, or is it by the education you have received.

Burning of eyes, cutting of limbs, bleeding the murders to death, and deny them water is apt justice in your eyes? Is that what you stand behind when you declare "YES, I DO"? Are you saying that what your Allah says, and what your prophet Muhammad did is not cruel and unusal punishment?

The Kafirs in your country really would like to know, beleive me, because you are born an american and educated here and raised here. Do all muslims in USA think that Islamic Sharia punishments are not "cruel and unusal" as you seem to say that you do not? Would you like to see Allah's law be supereme law of the land in USA? I am sure the kafirs here really would like to know.

Rudy,

Claim to be an ex-muslim? Muslims have such a hard time expecting the people reject Islam. I suggest go to www.councilofexmuslims.com or http://ex-muslim.org.uk/ and see if we exist.

I have nothing against muslims. I have nothing against christians. I have nothing against hindus. I have nothing against buddhism. I do have questions against Islam and its prophet Muhammad. If you want to know whether christians, hindus, buddhists or zorastrians have committed atrocities in history, the answer is yes they have. Humans will be humans and they will give into greed and other very human vices.

The difference is that the God of the Christians, or the God of the Jews, or the God of Zorastrians, or the Gods of Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists etc. does not or do not hate the non-believer with one thousandth of the passion that the Allah of the Quran hates the non-muslims. That is the reason why I left Islam. When you can show me that Jesus or the God of Christians hates the non-believers with the passion that Allah and Muhammad hated the non-muslims, I will start condemning christianity as well.

The issue is that here I am asking to muslims why is it that Muhammad tortured the Ukl tribesmen to death and not just kill them? Why is the mercy for all mankind has to burn their eyes, bleed them to death, deny them water, etc instead of just beheading them? And no muslim wants to answer that question directly, but like yourself raise the issue but christians are bad and evil as well? So what if the christians are bad? Should that make the actions of Muhammad any more acceptable to me or to anyone if the christians are evil?

Why not answer the two questions I have asked directly?

CCNL -

You sound loony - maybe its all those pills...

A Kafir -

I have explained everything to you time and time again. I have no idea why you keep asking the same questions repeatedly when the answers are there for you.

You keep asking whether or not the punishments prescribed in Qur'an are just and fair. And you also chose to ignore what I brought up about the death penalty in the US.

What do you think of the crimes in question? Kafir, you seem to be very inquisitive but you ignore questions that are directed at you.

Do you think it is alright to steal? Do you think it is okay to take someone else's property? Do you think it is okay to rape? Do you think it is okay to murder? An eye for an eye is even mentioned in the Bible - I have to keep repeating myself here. I have no idea why...

The Qur'an states that killing a single soul ****unjustly**** is tantamount to killing the whole of humanity, and that an unjust killing deserves qisas (a form of retributive punishment). (Qur’an 5: 32).

Do I stand behind this? YES I DO!

Capital punishment in Islamic law, however, has its own checks and balances. For one, this punishment is not imposed unless due process has been observed in a fair trial, and extenuating circumstances were fully considered. *Furthermore, the power of imposing capital punishment is not a state power.* The state has only the power of execution (carrying out the sentence that has been given).

The Qur'an Says -

Adulterers 100 Lashes - Both the male and female who are guilty of adultery or premarital sex are to be flogged with one hundred lashes. Absolutely no mercy is to be given. It is to be witnessed by a group of Muslims. The adulterers can only marry a person who has been found guilty of the same crime or an unbeliever in the religion or Islam (24:2,3).

Unsupported Accusation Eighty Lashes - If a person accuses a good woman of sexual misconduct and cannot produce four witnesses, that accuser must be flogged with eighty stripes and never again will their evidence be considered (24:4).

Swear Four Times - If a man accuses his wife without witnesses, he must swear four times calling down a curse on himself if he is lying. If his wife denies the allegations and does the same thing then there will be no punishment (24:6-9).

Retaliation for Murder When a person is murdered then retaliation is allowed as long as it is “equitable.” If the wronged party forgives then a liberal fine should be paid (2:178).

I dont understand why these crimes are not punishable? I really want someone to tell me WHY these crimes should go unpunished???

" Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

Rudy, Rudy, Rudy,

There is only one of me.

With respect to "Christian" hostility towards others, you are correct but none of these acts follow the teachings of the historic or embellished Jesus therefore these hostile "Christians" are not followers of Jesus or the NT. Call them what you will but they are not Christians. The name "low lifers" comes to mind. "
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Vow! So, the 2 billion Christians of today are the descendants of the "low lifers", according to you. Does that mean these descendants of the "low lifers" (your words) have a mind set established by the "low lifers" centuries ago. I challenge you to go any church and try to tel them that.

By the way, what are you going to do about your "low lifers"? How do you establish peace and harmony on earth?

Rudy, Rudy, Rudy,

There is only one of me.

With respect to "Christian" hostility towards others, you are correct but none of these acts follow the teachings of the historic or embellished Jesus therefore these hostile "Christians" are not followers of Jesus or the NT. Call them what you will but they are not Christians. The name "low lifers" comes to mind.

The current and past acts of hostile Muslims however follow the dictates of the hallucinating Mohammed and his book of death called the koran. The name "koranic low lifers" comes to mind. This name also applies to all the imams and countries like Iran that support these "koranic low lifers".

A. Kafir:

Are the following questions going to go away for Christians:

a) What was the religion of those who colonized the world during the previous centuries and brought death and destruction to millions of people around the globe?

(b) What was the religion of those Europeans who destroyed the civilizations of the Maya, the Inca, and the Aztec civilizations?

(c) What was the religion of those Europeans who annihilated the native Americans (only 3 million left today)?

(d) What was the religion of those who decimated the population of the pre-Christian Australians ?

(e) How did the Christianization of Europe take place from the 4th century A.D. to the 18th century? Was it by force or by persuasion?

(f) What does this finger pointing by both Christians and Muslims accomplish? Are you and others promoting hate?

(g) The recent post-election riots in Kenya in which Christians were killing other Christians simply because the two parties belonged to two tribe negates your view.

(h) The recent burning of Christian churches in Orissa on Christmas day also negates your views.

(i) The recent infighting of Christians with Christians in a Jerusalem church also falls on your face.

(j) The genocide of Muslims at Srebrenica by Christian Serbs does not help your viewpoint either.

(k) The numerous bombings of abortion clinics in America by the Army of God fanatics also negates your view. ? ? ?

Your obsession is with Muslims alone. Why not Christianity? Is it just because you claim to an ex-Muslim?

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article2184678.ece

Two years ago author Mariwan Halabjaee wrote "Sex, sharia and women in the history of Islam". Here he wrote that the prophet Mohammed had 19 wives, married a nine-year-old when he was aged 54 and that he took part in murder and rape. Last month a court in Halabja convicted him of blasphemy in absentia.

Halabjaee has lived in hiding in Norway for one and a half years. The sentence states that he should be arrested upon his return to north Iraq but he has now been granted asylum in Norway, newspaper Bergens Tidende reports on its web site.

The writer has had 14 books published. Halabjaee says that he has received a series of death threats and that there is a fatwa saying he should be punished by death unless he asks forgiveness.

Halabjaee also believes Norway is naive about radical Islamist groups that he says authorities allow to develop without control on Norwegian soil.

"Norway has protected me against the terrorists and I hope to be able to play a role in this democratic system. But I am alone and feel imprisoned. I have little contact with people and have to move carefully. Even if I have lived here a year and a half no cultural or other organizations have contacted me," Halabjaee says.

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The above is an example of why the questions being asked about Islam and muhammad are not going to go away easily. Crying Islamophobia, and playing the victim, and trying to blame others just will not work with those of us who were born and raised as muslims but managed to see through it and fortunate enough to escape its hold.

Rudy writes:
"A. Kafir:
You complained that I vanished last time. Some of us have many other things to do than just sit here and write and write and write with an obsession. Is it a full time job for you?"

I do not multinick. I did not know that I should not respond to questions posed to others. I will leave CCNL to answer that one for you if he chooses.
Full time job? I wish it was, but unfortunately it is not. Obsession? You hate interacting with people? I think I know Islam from the inside. It took a long time to get the hold of that cult off me. And now, I cannot think a better way of educating my fellow citizens, than show them its true face. Maybe I have the zeal of the new convert, convert to a free mind and a hate free world. Islam teaches hate for the non-muslim. Islam's Allah hates the non-muslims with a passion.

Why don't you try and answering the question about Quran 5:33 and the barbaric punishment that Allah codifies for humans. Moody yelled and screamed, and wants to take us back to personal vendetta and tearing peoples hearts and drinking their blood era of humanity, but he did not answer whether Allah should tell humans to torture other humans to death. Mullah revert hides and surfaces in various multinicks, Eboo as an Ismaili does not have a clue. Mischka is honest and she is thinking and I expect she will try to answer soon enough.

I really would like to hear your answer to the two questions I have asked. You see the cruelty is not based on any hadith that can be conveniently labeled 'zaeef' or daef or gharib or weak, but directly on the word of Allah in the Quran. The hadith shows Muhammad acting extremely cruelly and barbarically and goes well beyond delivering execution as justice. Why so much cruelty for men and for all time?

A. Kafir:

You complained that I vanished last time. Some of us have many other things to do than just sit here and write and write and write with an obsession. Is it a full time job for you?

You are responding on behalf of Concerned Christian now Liberated. Someone posted here that it is actually one person posting under different names. I do not know if that is the case.

The question raised by me were never answered. Except putting all the blame on Muslims and no scriptures were used to justify those atrocities by Christians.

We do make a distinction between rhetoric and reality.

Rudy, Rudy, Rudy

You were answered and you vanished last time. Scroll down and ye shall find what ye seek.

Now before you vanish this time, how about getting yourself and your brothers and sisters to answer the questions about the Islamic Sharia punishments codified in the Quran by Allah Almighty for all time and for all humans?

What say you? Are the barbaric punishments of crucifixion and cutting of limbs that Allah decrees for humans acceptable to you? Should a society listen to Allah and implement those punishments.

Iran just amputated a few theives last week because they take Allah's words very very seriously. Is that humane and just according to you?

Rational:

True, every religion needs some form of reform which is much harder to implement than to legislate. But you should realize that there is some progress in India on the caste issue. While lower castism is very much alive, the stranglehold is weakening through inter-caste marriages, government reservations for jobs and education for lower castes, etc. This is undeniable. The eradiction of caste will take time.

But we are talking about violence and narrow-mindedness in the name of Islam. How long will that take to change?

CONCERNED THE CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED:

Are you really liberated or are you wrapped in a shroud of prejudice pretending to be fair?

a) What was the religion of those who colonized the world during the previous centuries and brought death and destruction to millions of people around the globe?

(b) What was the religion of those Europeans who destroyed the civilizations of the Maya, the Inca, and the Aztec civilizations?

(c) What was the religion of those Europeans who annihilated the native Americans (only 3 million left today)?

(d) What was the religion of those who decimated the population of the pre-Christian Australians ?

(e) How did the Christianization of Europe take place from the 4th century A.D. to the 18th century? Was it by force or by persuasion?

(f) What does this finger pointing by both Christians and Muslims accomplish? Are you and others promoting hate?

(g) The recent post-election riots in Kenya in which Christians were killing other Christians simply because the two parties belonged to two tribe negates your view.

(h) The recent burning of Christian churches in Orissa on Christmas day also negates your views.

(i) The recent infighting of Christians with Christians in a Jerusalem church also falls on your face.

(j) The genocide of Muslims at Srebrenica by Christian Serbs does not help your viewpoint either.

(k) The numerous bombings of abortion clinics in America by the Army of God fanatics also negates your view.

There is a lot more if you come back.

Moody,

I had asked:

1. Why don't you tell us if you find the Hadd punishments given in Quran 5:33 (i.e. crucifixion, and cutting of limbs) acceptable as humane and just?

2. Do you find it acceptable that the murdering tribesmen were tortured to death by your prophet for fighting against Allah and His messenger?

And you said that if it was your sister or mother, the victim then you would put Hind to shame when she chewed Hamza's liver for having killed her father. But you did not answer my question at all did you? I asked you about the Hadd punishments which are administrated by the state and whether they are acceptable as humane and just. So you think it was fine for your Muhammad to have tortured the tribesmen to death? What a prophet!!

Why is it that you, or Mullah revert, or Mischka, or Eboo, or any of the other muslims on this board cannot simply answer a fairly straightforward question? You see as the follower of your death cult, you can have none but one answer. It is for Mischka, the american born and educated here to see whether she can live with the answer, and whether she is comfortable with your emotionalism that takes humans back to when chewing a deads opponents liver on the battle field was considered valor.

What say you Mischka?

The flaws in your religion are responsible for the following recent massacres and maiming. None of this is amusing:

1) 9/11, 3000 mostly USA citizens, 1000’s injured

2) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4000 US troops and 80,381-87,792 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

3) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

4) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

5) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

6) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

7) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

8) Afghanistan, approximately 800 coalition forces, 1000's of innocent civilians.

Dave: It is easy to call for reform. The truth is every religion and society needs reforms. The question is how do you bring about reform. Did you read my post on the subject on Jan 5?

Soon after independence, the late Jawahar Lal Nehru got Hindu Code bill passed. Very honest and good intentions for reforming Hindu society. Gandhiji tried to uplift the Dalits.

The question today is: Does simply passing the laws eliminate society's thousands of years of traditions and belief systems? If passing the laws was enough there would be no crime in any country.

Protestantism arose centuries ago as a protest. The result: thousands of new denominational churches emerged. Catholics and Protestants fight each other in dogmatic ways.

Hindu caste system is still intact. The untouchables still suffer. The newborn females still get aborted. The dowry is still given and taken.

The elite of Islam (S. Arabia) misuse the faith by using the wealth and power and disgrace their faith. Multiple marriages and divorcing (for one-time consumation) is corrupting Islam. Many more ills.

It is simplistic and naive to simply call for reform by using abusive language against Hindus, Christians, Jews, or Muslims.

I do not know the answer for my own questions. May be, just may be, we all should search our hearts and sit down and talk and educate the masses. I realize this too is simplistic.

It is but natural that over the years, Islamic extremism across the border in Pakistan will end up inducing some Hindu extremism in India. That's to be expected, no? The same thing is happening in Palestine. Islamic extremism in he form of Hamas and all those shady Islamic states that support terrorism like Iran and Syria that support Hamas and their like have induced strong military reaction from Israel. Well, the Jews have a right to defend themselves. The same thing is happening in India, Eboo Patel. Don't have your head in the sand.

Everytime some Islamic terrorists from Pakistan kill innocent men, women, and children in India by blowing up commuter trains, attacking our Parliament, attacking temples, the Hindus remember. The anger and the frustration is bottled up inside and it bursts out against Muslims in India. I am not saying this is right. It is not right to take out anger against terrorists on ordinary Muslims, your neighbours in many cases. But that is what happens. Because we do not see that the attitude of the Muslims world-wide have changed significantly against Islamic terrorism. Look at the polls conducted in Pakistan--more Muslims there are anti-America (may be also anti-India and anti-world) than are anti-Osama or anti-Al-Queda. So it is not surprising that Hindus in India do not see this strong backlash from Indian Muslims against Islamic terrorism. Instead, the last train bombings in Mumbai had a lot of local Muslim invlovement.

When you have a situation like that, ordinary Muslims will end up paying a price. It's not right, but that's life. After 911, isn't there a backlash against Muslims in this country? Sure is. So Muslims-- take responsibility and ask how Islam can be seriously reformed. For starters, don't you think that the mullahs that spread the message of hatred in madrassas should be flogged? Is there a passage in the Koran that would justify flogging for spreading hatred among humanity? What does your sharia say? Any provisions there for protecting kafirs?

Islam is a pandemic fiercely-promoted belief system that enjoys a huge advantage over the competition. Some of the reasons for its longevity and success are listed below.

* It is a crusading belief. Early on, it forced itself by the sword and as time went on it employed any and all schemes to promote itself while destroying the competition.

* It mandates prolific procreation on the faithful. It allows a man to have as many as four wives concurrently, in part to cater to the lust of the men and in part to produce more children who would, in turn, swell its ranks.

* It gets the first crack at imprinting its dogma on the blank slate of the child’s mind from the very first day of birth. The imprinting is usually deeply engrained and makes it difficult for the person to fully erase it, or replace it altogether. Even when successful, an ex-Muslim, or a “cultural” Muslim retains on his slate some traces of the early imprints. It may take more than one generation to fully erase the Islamic imprints.

* It does not allow anyone the choice of leaving its fold at the penalty of death for apostasy.

* It holds that the earth is Allah’s and no non-Muslim is entitled to the same rights and privileges reserved for its own members. Even the “people of the book,” Jews and Christians, must pay the religious tax of jazyyeh to be allowed a subservient place under the Islamic rule.

* It campaigns ceaselessly at propagating itself by any and all means, while banning other religions from so doing. Islamic proselytizers invade the lands of the unbelievers and work relentlessly to convert others while non-Muslim faiths are even barred from having a place of worship in lands such as the cradle of Islam, Saudi Arabia.

* It is anathema to many of civilized humanity’s values, such as those enshrined in the first amendment of the Universal Declaration of the Human Rights.

* It is a caste system where the male believer enjoys valued privileges denied to all minorities, women and slaves. This discriminatory provision guarantees generation after generation of avowed in-power adherents who would shirk at nothing to maintain their privileged status granted to them by Allah.

* It is a powerful carrot-and-stick system of belief. It maintains its stranglehold on its obedient followers by promising them unimaginable compensations of their physical lusts, if not in this world, then assuredly in the next, while anyone who strays from the mandated path is threatened with a raft of unending horrid torture from a vengeful Allah in an eternal hell."

Victoria:
Re:Niqab
I posted that a Niqab is a shroud that covers the whole body but a slit for the eyes.You countered(RUDELY I MIGHT ADD) by saying that Niqab is only a veil. Do yo mean that women who wear the veil do not cover the rest of their bodies? Have you ever seen a woman wearing a veil and maybe a bathing suit or miniskirt?
The whole idea of shrouding a woman to protect her chastity is as ridiculous as having four wives and as FGM etc.Those who advocate the Hijab, Niqab or Burqa need to understand that women chastity is shielded from within and not from outside by a black bed sheet, organ mutilation or belt with a lock. As I posted earlier many prostitutes use the veil to hide their identities from their relatives to expedite their business.

CCNL

You really amuse me.
And I believe others too!

lol

Moody, Moody, Moody,

But there is someone here to help me, You. Your outbursts solidifies your obvious koranic brainwashing and reinforces the need for your deprogramming. Have you forgotten already those Five Easy Steps? Once again:

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point-- In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." ( i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.)

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingie". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Soja,

Being a muslim I am willing to change anything in Islam ***IF*** I saw or understand anything WRONG in Islam and most of its sharia!

"AS IT IS THE BASIC HUMAN NATURE!"

Like YOU need to change and also admitted!!
In Hinduism,
- Cow dung and pea eating
- Women wife burning
- Female fetous abortion or every 4 out of 10 girls being killed.
- Extremely hate based caste system with in your selves. ONE CAN'T IMAGIN WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH OTHERS???
- Countinuous brutality and genocides of other nations and religions in very short independence time span of India.
- And muslims are more than 200 million in India without any politcal say through your land reforms which were made. Your population figures are muniplated by your Tyrant so called secular democratic Indian govt.

So yes we muslims do react, defend and EXPLAIN your politically motivated misconceptions BASED ON INGNORANCE AND WITH OUT KNOWLEDGE.

AND IT IS VERY NATURAL WE FELT OFFENDED BY YOUR ARROGANCE AND CRITICISM ABOUT WHICH YOU KNOW NOTHING!!!!

Therefore it is UNFAIR to tell us make the changes to the things which are already CORRECT AND PERFECT in Islam.

I HOPE YOU AND OTHERS CONCIDER THIS POINT.

And prefer to ASK if any thing bothers you rather than straight away CONDEMNING without KNOWING!!

For anyone trying to understand the blind hatred of some, repeat, only some Hindus towards Muslims in India: A Gujrathi Hindu had the following to say, "I hate Muslims because they are the monsters who in the name of Allah killed our men and took away our women to be sex slaves in their harems."

Dear Victoria

The caste system in Hinduism is a curse. The concept of a caste system does not exist in any other religion, not just in Islam. However it must be understood that the caste system was not meant to be a rigid social structure when it was originally introduced as a religious thought. It was simply description of the society based on the functions they fulfilled and was meant to work harmoniously as the different parts of the body work together. The Brahmin, or priest represents the head, the warrior the hands etc. The knowledge of God is supposed to guide the warrior, hence the priest is the advisor to the ruler. The ruler is too busy governing the land to spend time in meditating on the mind of God, which is what the Brahmin does unencumbered by the pressure to govern the land. Originally the Brahmin was the man who knew the Scriptures and spent time in prayer, and offered priestly services to the whole community. It was not meant to be hereditary. But as in all things human, Brahmins kept their knowledge to themselves and imparted it only to their own families, hence solidified the caste system. And rulers on their part, as in monarchies to this day around the world, handed down their kingdoms to their children.

Until my mother's generation, there was an inflexibility to the inter-caste interaction. It is slowly changing now. Since Independence education and jobs are being offered to "lower castes" as a priority in order to uplift them.

Education is the key to shifting the consciousness of people. Kerala, my native state has a literacy rate of 100%. It is attributed to three "Cs" - Christianity, Communism, and... I don't know the third C!

Although I have shown no hesitation to criticise any religion, including my own, you find it impossible to accept the fact that I take the same liberty with Islam. You react as if you are being personally attacked. When I say that Islam is not perfect and could do with some reform, you say I am a Muslim basher. I have at all times praised Sufi Islam, which is reformed Islam. Unfortunately it is not mainstream, hence I join in the call to reform Shariah Law based Islam.

Like you I was raised in a democracy you know. So I'm suprised at you being upset about me having an independent opinion, while making it very clear that I respect the right of all Muslims to follow their faith in anyway they choose, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. I would say the same to any Christian if they used their faith to harm anyone.

Best wishes
Soja

PS: I have read the whole Quran.

CCNL

In your opinion i'm having a moody moment.What about your permanent case?
I wish sombody be there to help you??

lol

Moody, Moody, Moody,

You sure are having a Muslim Moody Moment!!! Again, may I suggest our Five Point Program for "Deflawing Islam" as a way to permanently escape these moments.

Did you hear the latest? Gabe, the "Great Pretty Wingie Thingie" is now in Pakistan. He rotates assignments or is that assassinations??

moody, dont let it upset you brother-

kafir just likes to provoke and poke with a stick-
theres no quest for knowledge there- just a less than noble desire to irritate.

dont let him get to you
peace

MR MAHFOUZ-
you stated-
"Niqab:
Niqab is a shroud that covers the whole body but for a slit for the eyes"

NIQAB IS THE FACE VEIL AND THE FACE VEIL ONLY

IT IS NOT A SHROUD, BUT ONLY WORN ON THE FACE

YOU ARE THINKING OF OR DESCRIBING THE BURQA
OR EVEN CHADOR

YOU ARE SIMPLY A WELLSPRING OF MISUNDERSTOOD MISINFORMATION

please stay off the faithfreedom site

i just looked on there and i swear some dumb pretend fake "ex-muslim" was ranting about jihab

how can someone ever be a msulim for even one minute and think its called a jihab?????

it is hijab!!!!

just like this woman who is a guest voice talking about jheelabas

theres no such thing as jheelaba

it is jilbab - not jhellaba or even jheelbab
(which would be an understandable mistake)

you seeem to delight in being misinformed, and speading confusion

MR MAHFOUZ-
you stated-
"Niqab:
Niqab is a shroud that covers the whole body but for a slit for the eyes"

NIQAB IS THE FACE VEIL AND THE FACE VEIL ONLY

IT IS NOT A SHROUD, BUT ONLY WORN ON THE FACE

YOU ARE THINKING OF OR DESCRIBING THE BURQA
OR EVEN CHADOR

YOU ARE SIMPLY A WELLSPRING OF MISUNDERSTOOD MISINFORMATION

please stay off the faithfreedom site

i just looked on there and i swear some dumb pretend fake "ex-muslim" was ranting about jihab

how can someone ever be a msulim for even one minute and think its called a jihab?????

it is hijab!!!!

just like this woman who is a guest voice talking about jheelabas

theres no such thing as jheelaba

it is jilbab - not jhellaba or even jheelbab
(which would be an understandable mistake)

you seeem to delight in being misinformed, and speading confusion

Kafir

You are no authority of judging me or any body else ON PERSONAL LEVEL?

ASKING what do I, He OR She think?

Go and judge your self first!

As per WHO ARE THE AUTHORITIES,
punisment is applicable to the CRIMINALS!

Don't ask me to FORGIVE YOU IF YOU RAPE OR KILL my mother or sister, I WILL RIP YOU APART in such case if in my hands!!

DO YOU HAVE ANY OBJECTION TO THAT?????????

Moody,

You say the questions have been answered and you scream and you yell ( I think that is what caps and symbols mean ). Why don't you give the answer then? It cannot be very long, can it?

1. Why don't you tell us if you find the Hadd punishments given in Quran 5:33 (i.e. crucifixion, and cutting of limbs) acceptable as humane and just?

2. Do you find it acceptable that the murdering tribesmen were tortured to death by your prophet for fighting against Allah and His messenger?

Now how complicated can the answers be? Tell the kafirs what are the answers. It should not take very long on your part since you tell us that they have already been answered.

Please don't run and hide now.

Mindlessly critisizing others doesn't

JUSTIFY YOUR OWN EVIL & MILICIOUS HABITS!!!

A. Kafir,
Arif,
CCNL, AND ALL LIKE YOU!!

You cowardly mean bigots, keep on repeating SAME QUESTIONS which are countless times answered.

BUT YOU keep on EVEN LYING and FABRICATING SAME THINGS WHICH IS REPEATEDLY ANSWERED!!!

Well let me tell you WHAT EVER UGLY SINFUL HISTORY & HABITS you guys are in.
You just can't hide by blamming others.

And if you are in the deepth of any filth,
IT WON'T HELP CONCIDERING IT OK
AND
THEN SHAMLESSLY TRYING TO DRAG OTHERS INTO IT!!!

May God mercy on you poor souls, Ameen!!!

Anonymous writes:

"mischka:

So many different persons (or is it one person with different names?) are ganging up on you. That should be a cause for concern for you. They are playing psychological war on you. So many different names and you alone mischka. BEWARE!"

Why don't you step up and help? Why don't you get Eboo to step in and answer the questions? My questions are open and clear. What is so complicated about them? Why don't you answer them? I tell Mischka to go to her Imam, to the best Islamic Scholar and get the answers from them. Is this the face of islam you want to show on WP? When real dialog begins, when real questions are asked then run for cover and hide? Hide, hide as well as you can, for the questions will not go away. Your kids will ask you the same questions one day. What will you do then? Where will you run to hide then?

Why don't you answer what kind of a prophet or allah of Islam is it that has to torture people to death for a severe retribution? Do you approve of the Hadd punishments laid out in 5:33? Speak up. Tell the Kafirs. Why do you feel the need to hide?

a salaamu alaikum mischka- at this point, dont become a fool to argue with fools-

besdies, it seems there is some coward anonymous poster- possibly saying the ugly things that are in the hearts of those with names that they dare not reveal about themselves-

personally, ive been elsewhere doing my political thing

and it hasnt really distracted anyone from the subject of hindu funtamentalism

personally- im fighting their angry fire with the cool water of flowing on to better company
peace

Mullah Revert writes:
"mischka:

It makes no sense to reason with those who suffer from excessive, compulsive behavioral disorder.

Who knows who these people are. Are they the followers of Hirsi Ali? Are they one person who make multiple posting under different names?

You may have noticed one thing. They respond to each of any one's blog within a short time. Do they have no other jobs? Are they sitting there full-time? How do they make a living? Whose payroll are they on?"

Mullah, can you think? Are you getting worried that Mischka may start to think on her own, and actually start asking questions. Don't worry. The hold of your death cult is far stronger. No one gets woken from it with a few questions. It takes years. How about you? Why don't you answer the questions?

I do admire Hirsi Ali. I think she is amazing. She has educated herself about philosphy and literature that is very very impressive. May my muslim sisters be so lucky to be as intelligent as Hirsi Ali. I also like ibn Warraq. I do not like Ali Sina however or his site.

I work independently and am in front of computer all day. No one pays me to ask question about Islam or educate the kafirs about the true face of islam. I consider that my civic duty. That is my duty as a citizen of this great country. I feel very strongly about it and that is one thing I can do to help my fellow citizens. It is a cheap way to show my fellow citizens what they are really facing in Islam.

Anything else you would like to know? You can wallow in all the consiparcy theories you like, but it is the ex-muslims who are in the vanguard of educating people about the real and true nature of Islam. Read the article by Hirsi Ali on this paper. She identifies the five categories of "muslims" and the two categories which will lead to change and reform of Islam. Ex-muslims are on top of the list, and she is absolutely correct on that.

Cheer up, you will thank us, the ex-muslims one day.

mischka:

So many different persons (or is it one person with different names?) are ganging up on you. That should be a cause for concern for you. They are playing psychological war on you. So many different names and you alone mischka. BEWARE!

Mischka writes: "You are here to insult Islam and tell the world you hate Muslims...blah blah blah...

I am an educated woman who was born and raised in the USA - if I openly choose Islam out of all the religions out there - there has to be a reason behind it. "

Mischka, I have left Islam. I have not left muslims. Most muslims do not know Islam. You know that. Most muslims are laid back, trying to live their lives without worrying too much about religion or Islam. Ibn Warraq named it the "cultral islam". You should choose what ever you want for yourself. You choose Islam, that is fine. But do know Islam. The questions I am asking about Islam will make you know Islam better. Islam has never tolerated criticism. I know you will disagree but it is true and you should learn about that history of Islam as well. In the modern era, the biggest stress Islam is going to face is going to be from science.
The American Academy of Science just released a very very strong statement on evolution and how "creationism" or "intelligent design" is wrong and should not be treated as science. There is little doubt that evolution is true, and in the Quran Allah is directly and openly contradicting evolution and natural selection. You cannot sustain an all knowing Allah who does not know basic biology. You may be able to argue about evolution being a theory etc. as many muslims do over the net, but your next generation will not be able to. Muslims are going to have to come to terms that Quran's Allah gets a whole lot of science just plain wrong. It really is as simple as that. If your parents are doctors (if you are from pakistan, then it is likely that they may be) ask them to answer if any phyisology is known that supports Allah's contention that man is created from a drop of liquid that comes "proceeding from between the ribs and the backbone". How can Allah get such a simple fact of physiology so horribly wrong? And the explanationg that muslims give to explain that are worse than ludicrous. They are pathetic. How long will the young, and the bright, and the educated keep on pretending that there is nothing really in error with the rantings of a 7th century Warlord!!! Keep trying. It just will not work. It cannot work.

mischka:

It makes no sense to reason with those who suffer from excessive, compulsive behavioral disorder.

Who knows who these people are. Are they the followers of Hirsi Ali? Are they one person who make multiple posting under different names?

You may have noticed one thing. They respond to each of any one's blog within a short time. Do they have no other jobs? Are they sitting there full-time? How do they make a living? Whose payroll are they on?

Mischka, Mischka, Mischka,

You noted: "I am an educated woman who was born and raised in the USA - if I openly choose Islam out of all the religions out there - there has to be a reason behind it. "

It should read, "I was bred, born and brainwashed in Islam. As per the dictates of the koran and my imam, I cannot leave without incurring significant pain or death."

Before going off on one your tirades, take a deep breath and think about Islam, review all the plagiarized koranic passages and then how in the final analysis, Islam is simply based on the hallucinations of a warmongering Arab and his mythical friend, Gabriel.

And this does not bother you as an educated woman????

Would you like some suggestions on how to safely escape your current "imprisonment"??

Mischka,

I told you let us accept the death penalty as given. But your muhammad or your allah is not satisfied by mere death. No simple beheading, but Muhammad had to burn the eyes with a hot iron, cut off limbs and and put them out in the sun and deny them water. Look at it and tell me whether that is acceptable to you.

The good ole USA is wrestling with whether death by injection is humane enough. You do not have to be an expert in law or even in anything. Why can you not answer as a simple human whether death by torture (because crucifixion and cutting of limbs is torture, burning of eyes is torture, being bled to death is torture) is acceptable? Your "mercy to all mankind" did it. Your Islamic Sharia still implements it. Tell the kafirs whether it is acceptable to you and whether it should be acceptable to them.

Look at your Muhammad with open eyes, Mischka. Think if you possibly can. Think!!!

Is torturing to death all your Merciful Allah could recommend as a severe retribution?

Kafir -

"So crucifixion and cutting of limbs according to you is a "severe retribution"? The world calls it torture and for you it is severe retribution?"

Kafir - your opinions are already predisposed and you forget that even the good old US of A recognizes and uses the death penalty. What do you say to that? Do you think its okay for the government to decide who gets to die??? Answer me!

"Can we say that you are saying that cutting of limbs and crucifixion is just, humane and acceptable to you?"

Again - the punishment is prescribed according to the severity of the crime. I am not an authority but I can honestly say that the Qur'an does NOT allow rapists, murderers, sex-offenders, etc to roam the streets and our neighborhoods like our wonderful friend Kafir here.

I am sorry you feel the way you do about Islam - but you are not approaching this discussion with an open mind. You already have your opinions and you are certainly not here to talk. You are here to insult Islam and tell the world you hate Muslims...blah blah blah...

I am an educated woman who was born and raised in the USA - if I openly choose Islam out of all the religions out there - there has to be a reason behind it.

Mischka,

LoL!

Mischka writes: "The Qur’an purposefully describes the gravity of the sin before describing the punishment. The crime of murder and committing terrorist activities is regarded as such a severe violation in Islam, that a severe retribution has been prescribed.:

So crucifixion and cutting of limbs according to you is a "severe retribution"? The world calls it torture and for you it is severe retribution? Can we say that you are saying that cutting of limbs and crucifixion is just, humane and acceptable to you? So you think your prophets branding eyes with hot iron, cutting of limbs, and denying water to the bleeding is a very appropriate and just "severe retribution"?

Mischka, answer the question clearly. Is crucifixion, and cutting of limbs acceptable to you as retribution?

Niqab:
Niqab is a shroud that covers the whole body but for a slit for the eyes. This is the dress worn in public by the wives of the Prophet. Some Muslim women wear this "dress" in imitation of the the "mothers of the believers".
Recently some Muslim countries that include Jordan and Syria banned this costume because it was determined that it is mostly worn by prostitutes and male suicide bombers.

Kafir -

OF COURSE QUR'AN SAYS NOTHING ABOUT FGM - BECAUSE ISLAM DOES *NOT* ALLOW FGM.

KAFIR - GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT AND STOP THE LYING.

"Why are you avoiding answering the question on the punishment of crucifixion and cutting of hands?"

Im not avoiding anything - I just wanted to see if you would be able to answer me and you cannot.

5:33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter
The context of this verse itself will clear any negative perceptions against Islam. One cannot quote verse 5:33 without quoting verse 5:32 (prohibition of murder) and verse 5:34 (command to forgive). Let us examine the verse in its proper context:

5:32-34 ...If any one slew a person - unless it be as punishment for murder or for spreading corruption in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Common sense would be useful here. The gravity of the offense is something we have to consider. An eye for an eye is even mentioned in the Bible. (surprised?) In modern terminology "mischief" would be considered “terrorism”.

Its funny to see how Kafir will use the above verse to say that Islam wants Muslims to kill and wage war. He simply does not have the mental capacity to understand it.

The Qur’an purposefully describes the gravity of the sin before describing the punishment. The crime of murder and committing terrorist activities is regarded as such a severe violation in Islam, that a severe retribution has been prescribed.

"Do you think the posters cannot see that you are unable to answer those questions? Why?"

I am able to answer it quite well and just did. What you are not able to answer is this:::

GIVE ME PROOF FROM THE QUR'AN THAT SPECIFICALLY ENCOURAGES FGM.

"Why does your allah sanction marriage and sex with pre-pubertal little girls in the Quran?"

The Quran, in at least one passage, presupposes that there is an age which a girl must attain before she can be considered marriageable:

""And try orphans (as regards their intelligence) until they reach the age of marriage; if then you find sound judgement in them, release their property to them, but consume it not wastefully, and hastily fearing that they should grow up, and whoever amongst guardians is rich, he should take no wages, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable (according to his work). And when you release their property to them, take witness in their presence; and Allah is All Sufficient in taking account."" S. 4:6

This verse talks about the age of marriage - puberty. Even if you get married at a young age - the marriage cannot be consummated until the age of puberty is reached.

Muslim Brides-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne0mWLgqn8c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3znhvtvKo14

Mischka,

Do you read? I have already told you that Quran says nothing on FGM. It is the hadith, and the youtube videos posted clearly show that egyptian women believe it is the Sunnah of Muhammad, and the imam thinks FGM is okay. You deny the hadith, others do not. That is the central problem of Islam. You deny the hadith, others do not, and it becomes the sunnah of muhammad and little girls suffer.

Why are you avoiding answering the question on the punishment of crucifixion and cutting of hands? Do you think the posters cannot see that you are unable to answer those questions? Why?

Why not tell us what you think of the Sunnah of Muhammad of cutting limbs, branding eyes with hot iron, and deny water to the dying thirsty who are bleeding to death? Why avoid answering those questions?

You cannot answer, can you?

Here is the next one you are not going to be able to answer:

Why does your allah sanction marriage and sex with pre-pubertal little girls in the Quran?

Mischka, none of these questions are ever going to go away. These questions will become well known, and muslims will be asked to explain them. You cannot call them lies and dream that they will go away. They are not lies and you cannot avoid answering them. You may not answer them here, but how about to your ownself in the privacy of your thoughts? They will not go away.

Mischka- watch the deafening silence when they cant answer your challenge to find fgm in the qu'ran

k- who is mullah revert?
i had imagined before you were referring to me, but ive never called you schizo-
i HAVE called you pikey- but its obviously tongue in cheek because you clearly are not irish.

what a degeneration-

o,silly cowardly anonymous- re- your link

yes i paricularly recommend january 6 4:32 AM

Arif -

The only one I have ever seen that is mentally unstable on these boards is you. We talked about this - you want a religion that will allow you to be spoon-fed because you do not believe in any sort of prayer or higher power, being, etc.

You do not think it is part of your obligation to even get up from wherever you are sitting to pray. You do not feel the need to cleanse yourself (wudu). You do not feel the need to stay away from alcohol. You do not feel the need to do anything you are too lazy to do. You are not looking for a religion - you need a maid to change your diaper every now and then.

Please dont try to pass yourself off as semi-intelligent.

You are the spoilt child here looking for someone to take care of you and say that its okay to be aimless and lazy.

Kafir - Islam does not need you. If you want to be whatever it is you are - go for it. No one here asked you to convert to Islam. No one asked you to believe anything - but you need to stop the lying. Thats all I wante.

****Seriously - I challenge all of you to bring me a single verse from the Holy Qur'an that encourages FGM.****

most readers here understand that the poster victoria's gears are stripped. her arguments are like wet paper. you can put your finger right through them. she is pathologically unable to see flaws in islam -while the blood flows daily.

read her most recent posts on this thread-

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2008/01/hijabs_and_high_heels/allcomments.html

Mullah Revert,

You have called me schizo before. You cannot answer. You have no answer. The reasoning is with the readers at large. They can read and judge the answers. You chose to follow a prophet that burns eyes, cuts limbs, and denies water to those bleeding to death. Mischka was born into the religion and she is being honest. You chose to follow the monster after years of investigation you said. That says a lot about you ... far far more than my being a schizo.

mischka:

It makes no sense to reason with those who suffer from excessive, compulsive behavioral disorder--very close to schizophrenia.

Mischka,

Here is another hadith from Imam Bukhari that you can delare "Gharib" but it is there and is cited by many and no one has ever called it weak.

*********************************
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 797:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

A group of people from 'Ukl (or 'Uraina) tribe ----but I think he said that they were from 'Ukl came to Medina and (they became ill, so) the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) she-camels and told them to go out and drink the camels' urine and milk (as a medicine). So they went and drank it, and when they became healthy, they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. This news reached the Prophet early in the morning, so he sent (some) men in their pursuit and they were captured and brought to the Prophet before midday. He ordered to cut off their hands and legs and their eyes to be branded with heated iron pieces and they were thrown at Al-Harra, and when they asked for water to drink, they were not given water. (Abu Qilaba said, "Those were the people who committed theft and murder and reverted to disbelief after being believers (Muslims), and fought against Allah and His Apostle").
********************************************
Let us agree that the tribesmen were muderers and should have been executed. But simple execution or even beheading was not good enough for Muhammad.
Death for the murderers was not good enough. Your prophet ordered their limbs to be cut, water to be denied those who are dying of thirst and bleedig to death, and their eyes branded with heated irons. That is Muhammad's Sunnah.
Do you think this is a just and a humane punishment? This is the man you want the kafirs to accept as "mercy for all creation"?

Women's Rights in Islam: Female Genital Mutilation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs7PX_BulmA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrRFj6ZqUcI

Mischka,

1. If there is no compulsion in religion, why has there been a death penalty for apostates in Islam for the last 1400 years, and it is still the law of the land in all muslim countries? Why compel someone to remain a muslim when they don't want to?

2. You avoided my question on 5:33. It is obvious to anyone. I am not asking why the punishment is given ( that is a separate topic and you are denying and going against what the muslim imams and tafsirs say what is meant by war against allah ) but what do you think of the punishment itself. Nearly all kafirs around the world think crucifixion and cutting of limbs is torture and inhuman punishment. Your allah codifies it. That punishment is part of Islamic Sharia. What do you think of crucifixion and cutting of limbs as a punishment being codified by your Allah? Is that a just and a humane punishment?

"Mischka cracks me up. When presented wtih evidence uses clever manipulation to avoid staring Islam right in it's face."

Clever Manipulation? She displays ignorance by clearly showing anger and a spoilt child’s tantrums. She cannot answer a single accusation clearly without using "WRONG", "garbage", "stupid", "cute little tricks" etc. This person needs to learn the basics of idea exchanges without having to resort to calling people names. However, I can give her huge credit for trying her best to defend a lie (Islam).
Islam has a very limited shelf life left given the massive information exchange that is going on over the uncensored internet. Thanks Kafir and Ibrahim for all the valuable information you are posting on the Cult called Islam.

In the near future you'll see the Surgeon General’s warning; Islam can be dangerous to your health and mental stability!

Here is proof of a person in denial...
"Dont type lies - WHY DONT YOU STOP TYPING LIES? "

Regarding Coercion -

"“There shall be no coercion in matters of faith.” So speaks Allah in the Qur’an (Surah 2:256)"

As for what Kafir wrote -

"005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;"

I have already answered this verse for you! What is wrong with you? Are you blind???????????

The above talks about anyone who participates in religious persecution (waging war against Allah and his messenger), murderers (spreading mischief), etc. USE YOUR HEAD!

Like I said - this anti-Muslim and anti-Islam anger is just because everyone is pointing fingers and you think its the "cool" thing to do now. If you were able to think for yourselves - you wouldnt be saying all of this. As it is, CNN does all your thinking for you and treats you like mindless bimbos.

You are worthy of manipulation - you deserve it.

One more thing:

****I have said before that TV Scholars are not worthy opponents.****

If you are looking for a discussion - lets talk. If you are looking for a mud-slinging match - you will have to do much better then these weak and miserably references to partial verses and weak hadith.

Seriously - I challenge all of you to bring me a single verse from the Holy Qur'an that encourages FGM.

Mischka,
I posted the 5:33 for you yesterday. Here it is again:

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Now tell the kafirs what you think of your Allah codifying the inhuman and barbaric punishments of crucifixion or the cutting off hands and feet from opposite sides. Do you think your country of adoption should listen to your Quran and institute these punishments here?

Dont type lies - WHY DONT YOU STOP TYPING LIES?

"Mischka cracks me up. When presented wtih evidence uses clever manipulation to avoid staring Islam right in it's face.

WHERE IS THIS EVIDENCE? I HAVE NOT SEEN A SINGLE VERSE FROM THE QUR'AN POSTED ON THIS BOARD AND HAVE YET TO SEE THESE ANTI-MUSLIM WIERDOS COME UP WITH EVEN ONE TO SUPPORT THEIR WILD CLAIMS.

I cannot support the narrow-minded and uneducated views of a couple of bigots. In fact - I wont. There is a reason a woman like me CHOOSES to be Muslim - no one is paying me to do this. I like it.

If you cant handle that - then I advise you find the nearest body of water - and jump into it.

:-)

Mischka,

Authentic Hadith? Muslims always choose the hadith they like as authentic and dive for cover from those that they don't. The hadith is there. Muslims who perform FGM (77% of Egyptians for instance, and in many other North African Countries) all consider that hadith perfectly authentic.

Why don't you answer the question on cutting of hands and feet? They are doing it in Iran. They do it regularly in Saudi Arabia. They even have it on their law books in your country of origin. Allah codifies it. In your country of adoption they are deciding whether the lethal injection they give for the death penalty is too cruel and should be banned. But yor Allah sanctions crucifixion (and do you know how barbaric that is?). The cruelty of crucifixion and cutting of limbs is not based on a hadith that you can dispute; it is right out of the Quran. Tell us what is your position on your Allah codifying that punishment? Do you support it? Don't be shy, tell the kafirs here.

Mischka cracks me up. When presented wtih evidence uses clever manipulation to avoid staring Islam right in it's face.

Get out of Islam Mischka. It is much easier than changing Islam to what you wish it to be.

Kafir -

FGM has no link with Islam and is a neither a requirement nor a Sunna in Islam. All FGM related Hadith [1] that are allegedly attributed to Prophet Muhammad {Peace Be Upon Him} have been proved to be inauthentic.

All religions say God created human beings in the best forms and wanted them to keep the nature in which they were created. It is forbidden to make changes in God's creation unless there is a compelling reason i.e. for medical reasons.

Cosmetic surgery is frowned upon in Islam and all of a sudden FGM is okay???? That makes no logical sense!

Dr.Muhammad Lutfi al-Sabbagh, Professor of Islamic studies at King Saud University in Riyadh states:

"Since all these risks are involved in female circumcision, it cannot be legitimate under Islamic law, particularly since nothing that recommends it is definitely established as said by the Prophet {Peace Be Upon Him}. It is, however, established that he has said: "Do not harm yourself or others". This hadith is one of the basic principles of this True Religion.

Female Genital Mutilation is therefore neither a religious requirement or obligation, nor a sunna[3]. This is the view taken by a great number of scholars in the absence of any hadith that may be authentically attributed to the Prophet {Peace Be Upon Him}."

Kafir - take your garbage somewhere else. You know why??? Because you seem to be insulting the intelligence of the people on this board by lying repeatedly and expecting EVERYONE to fall for your cute little tricks.

Sorry - try again.

Mischka,

Ibrahim quoted a hadith about FGM. You are correct that it is not mentioned in the Quran. However, it is considered beneficial for women in the hadith. It is not customary in the subcontinent until recently. With the arabization of pakistan, there have been a few reports of it starting to take place even in your country of origin. However, it is a major major problem in African and Middle Eastern Countries such as Egypt, Ghana, Nigeria (Muslim parts of the country), Sudan, Ethipia, Senegal, Eriteria, Zaire, etc. etc. Here is a link showing UNICEF appealing to egypt to try to stop the barbarity
http://www.metimes.com/International/2007/09/10/unicef_urges_egypt_to_stop_female_circumcision/6578/

The link shows you that 77% of the females in egypt are affected by this.

You can answer Ibrahim about the hadith and why it is a lie. The fact is that your prophet never condemned slavery, and he never spoke against FGM either. The Hadith states that unequivocally.

And I notice that you have not even attempted to address the Hadd punishment of cutting of hands and feet which is in the Quran, and which you were defending a few posts below.

I have not lied about anything. I provide links for the statements I make. I am merely showing what the muslims say themselves. You can tell that the Imam Bukhari is no muslim, or ibn Kathir does not know Islam or Maulana Maududi has no clue about Islam, but I merely show what the Muslims have said themselves.

You think your shouting lies will make any of these facts go away? All of this is available online. Anyone can check them for themselves, and see whether I am telling it as it is or not.

Why don't you tell us what you think of your Allah codifying the punishment of cutting hands and feet? Give it a try.

Kafir -

"Muslims around the world perform FGM because they believe Muhammad sanctioned it, and that is not Islam?"

I am the eldest of four girls - all Muslim family. NO ONE in my family has ever gone through that. The Prophet (pbuh) NEVER sanctioned it and furthermore - the Qur'an NEVER mentions it.

THE ***QUR'AN: HOLY BOOK OF MUSLIMS*** DOES NOT MENTION FGM AND IF IT DOES - LETS SEE YOU PROVE IT.

Sorry - Muslims around the world are NOT practicing FGM - that is a BOLD FACED LIE and I am sick and tired of your lying on these blogs.

Let me guess - this is Deb with another name isnt it? You need a life if you cant come onto these blogs and even so much as own up to who you really are - a Muslim hater.

"Because it is not in the Quran. So are you discarding the sunnah of Muhammad from your Islam?"

My start and finish is the Qur'an first - if I need help I will look to the Sunnah. In this case - every neanderthal can see plain as day - that FGM is not a part of Islam.

FGM is a cultural practice - NOT a religious practice.

KAFIR IS FULL OF LIES, LIES AND EVEN MORE LIES. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO BACK UP WHAT YOU SAY ASIDE FROM RANDOM QUOTES FROM VERY WEAK HADITH.

FGM has been a social custom in Northern Africa for millennia. Many people link FGM with the religion of Islam. Actually, it is a social custom that is practiced by Animists, Christians, and Muslims in those countries where FGM is common. There are many Muslim countries in which the mutilation is essentially unknown, including Algeria, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

I am sorry you feel the way you do - but you are lying and WRONG.

How about you Mullah Revert? What do you think of your chosen religions Allah codifying cutting of hands and feet as punishment in the Quran for ever and ever for the humans? Do you support this torture, this barbarism of Allah, as Mischka does?

G. Norias -

"We will always differ on Benazirs life and death so trading insults is meaningless."

I agree - so lets stop the mud-slinging.

"Middle East machismo such as honor killings, mandatory dress code, adherence to archaic customs that severely limit women’s potential and happiness is absurd."

Middle Eastern honor killings are against Islam.

The dress code is something I think women should honor. ***NOT by force.*** It helps us recognize what and who we really are without focusing so much on our bodies. I do not think it limits women at all - it gives us a clearer picture of what our strengths are helps us become even more successful.

“I agree that the Middle East culture is WAY too strict. Almost to the point of insanity. However, its not Islam that is wrong here - its the people. Until the woman realize Islam does not stop them from being free - it shall continue.”

Your response is interesting, are you saying devout Muslim men who subject their families to such rules in the name of Islam, in essence love harsh cultural traditions over Allah and their own families?

Yes I am. That is *exactly* what I am saying. I am saying that the Qur'an does not tolerate cruel treatment of women in Islam. My family has never seen ANY cruel treatment of women. It strikes me as strange when I hear of oppression of women in Islam - I have never been treated cruelly. I have never seen my mother treated cruelly.

Islam does not treat women unjustly. I say this having seen both sets of grandparents in Pakistan, my parents and now my own husband. He is even more religious then I. My mother does not *obey* my father. She would laugh if you said that to her. She was born, raised, educated and married in Pakistan.

"Mischka, any human coerced to accept and live by such rules most definitely exists as a 2nd class dominated person."

I agree - but coercion is not acceptable in Islam. Islam does not need or want a forced prayer.

Mischka,

Ibrahim clearly shows the Hadith in which Muhammad is sanctioning FGM. Of course Mischka has no answers and no attempt to show any reason for claiming the hadith cited as weak. Muslims around the world perform FGM because they believe Muhammad sanctioned it, and that is not Islam? Because it is not in the Quran. So are you discarding the sunnah of Muhammad from your Islam?

Crucifixion and cutting of hands and feet is in the Quran that Mischka was defending a few posts ago. The merciful allah not only allows such barbaric punishments but codifies them in the Quran for ever for the muslims. So you support such barbaric punishments, Mischka, because they are in the Quran?

From Jan 7, 2008 news from Iran:
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2008/01/ec3b38a0-00af-4743-9943-5d00e920249f.html
********************
Iran: Criminals Lose Hands And Feet As Shari'a Law Imposed

International rights organizations have long condemned punishing people through amputations. Amnesty International, for example, calls it the "cruel, inhuman, and degrading punishment of judicial amputation," and considers it a form of torture.

The deputy director of the Paris-based International Federation of Human Rights and head of the League for Defense Of Human Rights in Iran, Abdolkarim Lahidji, told RFE/RL's Radio Farda that such amputations are considered torture and an illegitimate form of punishment.

"Amputating hands, flogging, all of these kind of [sentences] that are used in Iranian Islamic laws as punishment, all of these are considered torture, [and] torture has been banned in [international treaties]," Lahidji said.

Amputation as legal punishment is still practiced in a number of countries, among them Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Islamic regions of Nigeria. They were also common in Afghanistan under the Taliban. Parts of sub-Saharan West Africa have also recently witnessed amputations as a form of intimidation used by various political factions.
***********************

Mischka, your allah codified in the Quran what humans around the world now consider torture. What do you think? If Allah said so in the Quran, then it must be okay, right? Tell us what you think of these Hadd punishments? You think they are better than FGM?

You cannot even say that cutting of hands and feet is not in the Quran!! Let us see if you have the courage to answer this question and tell us that your Allah is a vicious barbarian for codifing such torture.

Ibrahim -

"You claim that dress codes as well as Female Genital Mutilation are cultural inventions and Islam has othing to do with them"

WRONG - I stated that Female Genital Mutilation is a cultural practice. NOT Islamic. The Qur'an does NOT allow this for women. There are not ifs or buts about it.

As for the dress code - women are told not to wear clothes that will draw attention to their bodies. Meaning, dress with modesty. Its not that hard to understand - really. The dress code is common sense.

Walking around naked does not liberate women at all. It actually confines them to having to use their bodies to get what they want.

The real challenge is using your mind and ONLY your mind to accomplish everything you want in life.

I dont understand where the confusion is...

soja-what you said regarding the qu'ran-
don't expect me to make believe that the word 'infidel' doesn't exist in it."

WHERE DID YOU SEE ME SAY WHAT IS OR ISNT I THE QU'RAN?
heres what i actually said-
"even the use of the word infidel is a christian term for unbelievers- not the word of kafir- or apostates"

infidelis- from the latin, meaning unfaithful- is a term used by the crusaders to describe those they fought in jerusalem(which also included alot of brown christians)

OK?
now, the word 'kafir' which is the word translated into he qu'ran as 'infidel' in english would be better translated as apostate- the word itself means to cover or conceal (the truth) amd rejector of (the truth).

different concept, different idea

as for point number 1- your reasoning is incredibly flawed-

"1. If the fundamentalist Hindus wanted Muslims to have their own country, leaving India to Hindus after India attained independance, why did they choose to assasinate Gandhi for giving in to the Muslim demand for a separate country?"

if we are to believe that the lone extremist assassin of gandhi is representative of the entire population of fundamental hindus in india- we can accept it-
otherwise - what?

are you saying that there was an entire people behind the assassin that condoned and celebrated his action?

that is pure nonesense and you know it
the assassin was a lone and disenfranchised gunman with an extreme agenda

im not even going to try and argue with that reeasoning

i notice also, when i make points, instead of addressing or deconstructing them- you always make sweeping statementsbut dont back them up

i dont believe your claim that you read the quran at all-
maybe you started it years ago and read a few suras-

but you never display any cohesive sense of the quran as a whole- make many negative comments about muslims without any reference-
i think its just a prejudice you havethat youre not willing to admit-

you always start your posts seeming to be very accepting- but towards the end of your very long posts they always descend muslim degradation.
i dont even think youre consciously aware of it.

also another thing you do, is start conversations and never end them.

ive tried countless times to engage you with logical referenced debates- but you always opt out and disappear when points arise you cant refute-
time and time again-

as ive said before soja-
well agree to disagree

i dont degrade yor religion
it gets tiring that your only arguments always end up being just bashing

so lets just agree to disagree,you to your belief and me to mine, as ive requested many times before

Mischka:
You claim that dress codes as well as Female Genital Mutilation are cultural inventions and Islam has othing to do with them.
In the book Sahih Bukhari on the chapter of Ablution and the topic of Defecating women, it states that the wives of the Prophet used to go out at night to defecate in an open place just outside their neighborhood. Omar ibn Khattab, one of the Prophet’s fathers in law and friend, advised the Prophet to veil his wives so as not to be recognized but the Prophet resisted. Until one dark night Omar recognized Sauda bint Zum‘a, one of the Prophet’s wives who happened to be very tall. He called out her name and she responded. It was only then that the Prophet agreed to veil his wives.The rest is history.

As for Khatan or female circumcision note the following.
Clitoridectomy is full or partial amputation of the clitoris. Twenty seven percent of the female circumcisions are of this type. It is called the “Sunna” or “tradition of the Prophet Mohammed” circumcision. Another variation of the Sunna circumcision is the “Intermediate” where the amputation includes besides the clitoris, a portion or all of the inner vaginal lips. Some form or the other of female circumcision was practiced by people of North Africa long before Islam, but was institutionalized by Islam. There is an accepted dictum assigned to the prophet Mohammed that says “(circumcision) is the merit for girls”. A version of Hadith; Muslim tradition, relates words attributed to the prophet addressing Um Attiyyah, the circumciser: “Circumcise girls but do not exaggerate {in circumcision} as {the way of performing the circumcision} is best liked by the husband and makes {the wife’s} face radiant in the best possible way”.

Husain writes: "Arabia had been conquered during the life of the Prophet itself.
The wars that took place in this process took the toll of less than
one hundred and fifty people. This revolution brought about by the
Prophet of Islam was indeed a bloodless revolution. And this
bloodless revolution became possible only by the power of peace. "

Husain is either incredibly ignorant or shamelessly lying. Where did you get the figure of 150? Muhammad had about 900 jews of Qurazay were beheaded in the market of medinah. Muhammad was upset at one of his followers who was not beheading with "zest" and reprimanded him. And that is just one incident.

What a shameless lie to call the emptying out of the Hijaz of jews and christians as a peaceful revolution!!! Tribes had lived there for centuries. They had built their homes, their villages. Hussain why don't you tell what were the conditions laid down by your butcher of a prophet on what the jews and the christian tribes had to pay to him. All of the properties and wealth of these tribes were confisicated and they are enslaved or converted or killed and Hussain calls that a peaceful revolution. Disgusting!!

Mischka

We will always differ on Benazirs life and death so trading insults is meaningless.

Middle East machismo such as honor killings, mandatory dress code, adherence to archaic customs that severely limit women’s potential and happiness is absurd."

“I agree that the Middle East culture is WAY too strict. Almost to the point of insanity. However, its not Islam that is wrong here - its the people. Until the woman realize Islam does not stop them from being free - it shall continue.”

Your response is interesting, are you saying devout Muslim men who subject their families to such rules in the name of Islam, in essence love harsh cultural traditions over Allah and their own families?
If this is the case what do you propose to do about it?

Mischka, any human coerced to accept and live by such rules most definitely exists as a 2nd class dominated person.

Hussain
Not sure if Muslims read what Kafir and others post, give reference to and comment on Islam. You people keep regurgerating the same... for example;
You say;
"During the life of the Prophet of Islam Quraysh, who enjoyed the
leadership of Arabia, turned so hostile to him that they went to the
extent of waging war against him."

Do you think before you post? You know that Mohammed started his "mischief" against the Quraysh and it was he who instigated the wars, borke the treaties, it was mohammed who attacked them, he was the aggressor in all but one war.

Glad that the internet is here to stay, in a few years time people of the islamic faith will be treated like smokers, outside the building 30 feet away from the enterance doors of all public buildings. Islam is dangerous to your health will be posted on all korans sold in the free world. Soon very soon inshallah!

Wow, the "prophet thumpers" are out and about the last few days. Today these "prophets" would be considered "fortune/profit tellers". And note there is in general some "pretty wingie thingie" involved.

But again the real issue is the koran and that famous quote, "Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe" (even Eboo).

Idol Wrorshipers are the worst creatures on the Planet.

If the IPS Officers converted to Christians there must be important reason.

And Why cann't one preach HINDUS what one considers CORRECT

Reports of communal vio-lence involving the con-verted Christians led by the missionaries on one hand and tribals on the other, in Kandhamal District of Orissa by the media since December 25 are vastly distorted and motivated which in public interest need be clarified lest the national image is tarnished before the general public and the international community.

The whole series of incidents started from unprovoked and preplanned attack on Vedanta Keshari Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati who was visiting his disciples in Darsingbadi village in Kandhmal District on December 24. Swamiji, 82, has been working relentlessly in the district since 1967 to protect the local population where more than 75 percent are below poverty line and are not literate. Swamiji has opened schools and hostels, hospitals and temples to protect mainly the tribals and the down-trodden from the clutches of missionaries who are operating with massive funds from foreign countries pumped into NGOs in disguised operations to convert the local tribals to Christianity.

Chief of such NGOs is 'World Vision' patronized by one Radhakanta Nayak, a local of Darsingbadi village from 'Pana' community who later got converted to Christianity. He happens to be an employee of the State Government promoted to the IAS and retired, and now a Member in the Rajya Sabha. His henchmen were the assailants who attacked Swamiji on December 24. Meanwhile, Nayak has incited Kui tribals among the Kandhs to agitate for getting his 'Pana' community, who are scheduled castes, relisted as scheduled tribe along with the Kui on the ground that the former also speak the Kui dialect.

Various reservation facilities to which scheduled tribes are entitled are not available to persons converted to Christianity. On hearing the assault news on Swamiji, the already agitated Kui community reacted and protested throughout the district against the 'Pana' community converted to Christianity. Interestingly, the Maoist (Naxalites) activists in the district are also mostly from among the recent converts to Christianity.

From the 47 Maoists arrested in connection with recent burning of villages inhabited by Hindus (Brahmanigaon, Jhinjiriguda, Katingia, and Godapur) as a counter to attacks by tribals on the churches, 20 guns have been recovered by the security forces. It is evident that the Maoists and the Church are hands in glove to spread fratricidal killings and clashes among the tribals which is evident also from incidents in Karbi-Anglong and North Cachar Hills districts in Assam. Conversions of poor tribal villagers are being conducted at gun point and by spreading terrorism.

While in active government service Radhakanta Nayak and John Nayak IPS (Retd.), both converted Christians, were instruments of the Church to proselytize the poor and illiterate 'Pana' and tribal communities. Under guise of NGOs thousands of dollars are pumped into the country for conversion of tribals in Jharkhand, Chhatisgarh, Madhya Pradesh, Orissa, Andhra Pradesh and the North-East.

Taking advantage of the poverty and lack of education, thousands of converted are being trained for separatist movements like NSCN in Nagaland and Maoist insurgency in the aforesaid states. This trend is more pronounced since 1970 which is evident from the census reports till 2001.

In Kandhamal District alone the Christian population has increased from 6 percent in 1970 to 27 percent in 2001, despite an Act enacted by Orissa Legislature in 1967 to prevent conversion. Swamiji has been fighting a lone battle by making the tribal district his home for last 40 years, and he is targeted by the Church. Earlier, there were two other lethal attacks on Swamiji in 1971 and 1995.

Since then the government has provided armed protection to Swamiji. In spite of that, he was attacked by armed assailants on December 24 in which he and his driver and armed security personnel were seriously injured and hospitalized in Cuttack Medical College Hospital.

Hence, the recent clashes manifest the various ramifications of the socio-economic, political and cultural tribal issues and the deep-rooted conspiracy by the Church to destabilize our society and our economy. Let the Nation awake and protect our tribal brethren and the national media stop distorting the facts.

Ashok Sahu, IPS (Retd.) Former Inspector General of Police

Facts on Christian-tribal clashes in Kandhamal, Orissa

From a moral standpoint, Hindus respect all religions. But that respect is limited by our own mutual obligation to observe boundaries that have a reasonable relationship to the needs of the society and of the individuals in it. Once a person is converted by devious means, he or she is reduced to creatures of the church in which conformity to generalized mediocrity becomes the rule.
-- Coercive Religious Conversion: A Crime against Humanity

The period in which the Prophet of Islam was born was a period of
war and fighting. Throughout the world sword was regarded as the
sign of power. This saying was prevalent among the Arabs that: the
greatest check of war is war. In this circumstance the Prophet
observed: "God grants to non-violence what he does not grant to
violence" (Al-Tirmidhi)

In the conditions prevailing fifteen hundred years ago such
observations appeared strange. It was so highly at odds with the
times that only the person could utter such words whose mind has not
been molded by his immediate circumstances, he is inspired by some
higher source of knowledge. Both the initial as well as the later
period of Islam testify completely to this inspired principle.

During the life of the Prophet of Islam Quraysh, who enjoyed the
leadership of Arabia, turned so hostile to him that they went to the
extent of waging war against him. According to the books of seerah,
the Quraysh wanted to embroil him in minor or major wars for more
than eighty times. But the Prophet did his best to avert war
through peaceful policy. For instance, one the occasion of Ahzab
encounter, the Prophet set up a buffer in the form of a trench
between him and his enemy. Then on the occasion of Hydaybiya the
Prophet made a peace treaty with the enemy unilaterally, accepting
all the conditions set by the enemy etc.

During 23-year period of Prophethood, the Prophet, in extremely
unavoidable situation encountered his antagonists only on three
occasions - Badr, Uhud and Hunayn. All of these three wars lasted
for only half day each. This means that the Prophet fought for only
one day and a half throughout his life and that total casualty
consisted of not more than 130 from both sides. To win over such an
aggressive and belligerent people with so little bloodshed had been
possible only because the Prophet always used to make the most of
the power of peace.

Arabia had been conquered during the life of the Prophet itself.
The wars that took place in this process took the toll of less than
one hundred and fifty people. This revolution brought about by the
Prophet of Islam was indeed a bloodless revolution. And this
bloodless revolution became possible only by the power of peace.

Addendum

Victoria, Judaism took shape over many centuries with the revelation of many prophets. The Judaism in 1400 BC at the time the Ten Commandments was revealed to Moses was quite different to the Judaism at the time Jesus was born. Many prophets had come since Moses to shape Judaism. Maybe it would be good for Islam to allow for reformation based on the same principles, after all Islam is modeled more on Judaism than on Christianity despite accepting Jesus as a Prophet.

Dear Victoria

Having read the Quran myself (translated by Dawood, an Iraqi who had worked on the various editions of his original translation for half a century!), don't expect me to make believe that the word 'infidel' doesn't exist in it. I had drawn my conclusions about the Quran after reading it myself. It came as a pleasant suprise when I later read the commentary of Professor Alan Jones of the Oriental Institute, Oxford, in the introduction to another translation of the Quran (with cross reference to Bible passages) and found he had the same thoughts.

It does seem that non-Muslims interpret the Quran quite differently. All non-Muslims are happy for Muslims to follow their own faith as long as it doesn't impinge on the human rights of others, including ex-Muslims. And of course we would like for all Muslims to enjoy within their own religion the same freedom and rights other religions grant to all their followers. That is why a call for reform of the religion is now becoming stronger and has become global. The world has become a global village and thanks to the Internet and the international media, everyone find it easy to keep up with human rights issues associated with the practise of Islam.

Once again I notice that your knowledge of Indian history is not without limitation.

1. If the fundamentalist Hindus wanted Muslims to have their own country, leaving India to Hindus after India attained independance, why did they choose to assasinate Gandhi for giving in to the Muslim demand for a separate country? Gandhi was after all a Hindu, a member of their own religion! Gandhi loved the Muslims enough to let them go if that is what they wanted. Muslims got their wish and thanked Gandhi by becoming India's enemy! Pakistan is not exactly a model of democracy either.

2. Considering 138 million Muslims make up only 11.4% of the Indian population and Hindus make up 85% of the Indian population, how come Hindus did not choose to slaughter all the Muslims left behind in India? I do not know of a single South Indian Muslim who chose to live in Pakistan or Bangladesh. India has had Muslim politicians, including Presidents; apart from the sporadic fighting in the North, all Muslims and Hindus live in peace with each other.

3. Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world. Yet it has not fought a SINGLE battle in the name of the religion. Such a concept does not exist in Hinduism. Battles are fought by rulers for political reasons. If it is not possible for you to understand the symbolism in the Gita about spiritual battle, it is too bad. Gita remains a spiritual treatise, and everyone are able to understand it as such. It is simple enought to understand why, as a Muslim, the concept is foreign to you and you seek to give Gita a Muslim Jihad interpretation. Vivekanda, who is considered a spiritual genius, said very kindly that Mohammad was not a very advanced yogi.

Best wishes
Soja

I have provided the word of one of the greats of Islam (Imam Bukhari) who tells the story of Safiya, one of the wives of Muhammad. The same story is told by others as well (ishaq, Tabari, Muslim,etc). The story clearly shows that Muhammad killed the men, tortured the husband and beds the sixteen year jewess of khaybar the same night he had butchered her people.

Mischka denies that Bukhari's hadith is reliable. But what she does not deal with is that others have told the same story. And then why would the followers of Muhammad, why would the really big names of Islam, why would the earlies biographers of Islam lie to make Muhammad look terrible? This is the story told by his partisans. If those who hated Muhammad were telling this, that would be one thing, but this is being told by the Muslims Imams who are considered THE source for the sayings and actions of Muhammad.

And this is only one of the stories. A similar story exist for another young wife of Muhammad, another jewess whose family Muhammad destroyed and then proceeds to bed her as well within a night or two of killing her family.

Notice that Allah could not tell a word to muhammad about how evil slavery is. Muhammad kills and then takes the booty which is the defeated kafirs and all their possessions and he distributes among his followers. He owns hundreds of slaves, he gifts slaves, he sells slaves, and Allah does not tell him once that Muhammad you set an example and do not own slaves, even if the others do. And muslims will make excuses about how good islamic slavery was, and how allah tells them to be good to their slaves, and to free the slaves when you can, etc, but slavery was only outlawed in the Islamic lands in 1960's under pressure from the kafir west, and slavery still exists in many muslim countries. Muhammd died owning many many slaves. He did not even free them on his death bed.

And there is a still a lot more, a lot more to the barbarity of the Muhammad of Islam. Kafirs really should, must spend time to learn as much as they can about Muhammad and his religion of peace.

Mischka,

It is a lame lame excuse that muslims use to deny the history of Islam by denying hadith as "daef" or "zaeef". But no one has ever considered the history of Safiya of Khaybar as false or weak. Show one scholar who has said that history is false or the Bukhari hadith on it are weak. You think your avoiding looking at it will make it go away. You simply show the technique muslims use to avoid looking at Muhammad. Any thing they do not like for the same source they call garib and what they want is okay. And different muslims use different parts of the history to justify their position. Those who kill pick and choose what they want, and those who are trying to lull the kafirs into buying that islam is a religion of peace pick and choose what they want. Lies and lies and lies. They will not sell when anyone can look up the Quran, commentaries on it, the hadith, and the islamic history at a click of a button. Lies will not hide cannot hide the simple fact that your muhammad was an awfully violent barbarian. And you want mankind to worship such a person? Look up and see what Attaturk, the founder of modern turkey, had to say about your muhammad.

And Allah only allows the Male muslim to take women from "people of the book". Muslim men may not marry pagan or polytheists. Those have to convert to Islam first. The children from these marriages are automatically muslims. This is the male dominance mentality of Islam that is assumed.
Muslim women are are not allowed to even marry non-muslim christians or jews. If a non-muslim woman converts to islam, her marriage to her kafir husband stands nullified. He has to convert to Islam if he wants to maintain his family and children. The muslim convert automatically gets the right to convert the non-muslim minor children to Islam and the opinion of the non-muslim parent does not count. The muslim convert parent gets custody of all the children.

That is your Islamic sharia. That is what is happening in even moderate countries like Malaysia at present. That is what the egyptian copts and the assyrian christians, and the iranian zorastrians have been living with for centuries.

And you think all of this is not going to become common knowledge to the kafirs the world over? What rights have the kafirs given you? Think about it and tell me what is Islamic justice?

Mischka,

Your lies are so easy to expose:
Muslims can marry non-muslims you say!
Tell us then why is it that a muslim female cannot marry a non-muslim. Go ahead and say that ibn Kathir does not know his Islam but you do. You have already dissed Bukhari.

Islam does not kill you say? Why don't you take a look at Islam's history? You still have not answered why was it that all the non-muslims had to be explled from the Hijaz? How many Kafirs did Muhammad kill in wiping out the kafirs from the Hijaz? What was their crime?

Kafir - I know all of your tired old lines - Ive heard them all before. No use defending yourself here.

God Almighty says, “And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.” (Al-Anbiyaa’ 21:107).

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and his house) and his House, is the Prophet of mercy, sent by God as a mercy to all mankind; believers, non-believers, and hypocrites. His mercy sheltered all humanity: men, women and children. Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and his house) was merciful to all creatures including animals and birds. God almighty describes Muhammad’s pity, kindness, and mercy to all the creatures.

"What I do recommend is telling the truth about Islam."

Then tell the TRUTH - not your trunk load of junk you pick up off wierd websites. Quote the Qur'an and dont post partial phrases. Find the meaning and explanations to them. Dont assume and judge because you dont like to be judged. Do you?

"Islam has killed those who tried telling the truth about Islam in the past."

WRONG - Islam does not kill anyone - people do. People kill other people. Its not the religion - its the terrorists.

non-Muslims are more then welcome to marry Muslims - legally in Islam. Did you know that??? Meaning, Allah recognizes that marriage. Did you know that??? How does this make any sense with what you say about Death to non-believers? If that is true - why does Allah allow non-Muslims and Muslims to join in marriage?

You are not making any sense here...

Mischka,

Of course you do not consider Bukhari to be Sahih. Muslims have a habit of denying everything when shown the history. They only believe what they think will win the argument at the moment. I was giving you the tafsir about waging war and not Bukhari. The tale about Safiya is in ishaq and Tabari beside being in Bukhari and Muslim. Take those away and you do not have any statement to make about your Muhammad. Of course you will run from the Ahdeeth as many Quran Only muslims already have.

And Allah did not say the punishment is for fighting muslims, but waging war against Allah and Muhammad. How does one wage war against Allah? How does one wage war against muhammad? For centuries Muhammadans have codified what that means in their law and now a Mischka on the net is going to deny all of it and invent a new islam?

LoL! If you do not believe in Bukhari which hadith do you believe in? Why oh why the muslims lie so and then lie so badly?

Mischka writes: "And I know your line - "Lets kill all the Muslims, All Muslims are terrorists" blah blah blah"

When and where have I ever recommended violence in the slightest against anyone? Anyone who recommends violence should be treated as a criminal ... no ifs or buts about it.

Killing is the Islamic way. I cannot recommend that to the kafirs. What I do recommend is telling the truth about Islam. Islam has killed those who tried telling the truth about Islam in the past. That is why it is death for the apostate; Death for Blasphemy. So much for the lie of "no compulsion in faith under Islam". Kill those who disagree is the standard Islamic fare fo
r the last 1440 years.

Telling the truth about Islam and Muhammad has just begun: see http://www.ex-muslim.org.uk/indexContact.html and that is only one of the councils.

Muslims will have to see and defend the hate that the Allah of Islam commands for the Kafirs in the Quran. They will have to deal with the barbarity of Muhammad. This telling of truth about Islam is going to be far far more effective than any stupidity of hurting anyone.

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;"

If you attack people - what do you want them to do? Smile and congratulate you for chopping off their heads? Hm? Is that what you are looking for? Something that will not allow Muslims to defend themselves if they are attacked? You wont find it. You are pathetic if you think this sort of manipulation will work on me. It wont and it doesnt.

Yes, Allah does empower us to battle when we are attacked and defend ourselves without fear.

"The catch which muslims always try to hide behind is "innocent people". Tell us whether those who do not believe in Allah or Muhammad innocent or guilty by your Allah's command in the Quran?"

Those who spread mischief, criminals, etc are not innocent. If you attack a Muslim for being a follower of Islam - he/she has every right to fight back. Its called self-defense...do I have to explain everything to you???

People like you - ***Extreme Islam-O-Haters*** are exactly that. You will believe what you want to believe and your supporting evidence is as weak as your initial arguments. You are like the modern version of Hitler...believing that you are the only one with the answers. Everyone else deserves to die except for Kafir...right?

As for the Hadith - I (and many many more) do not consider Sahih Bukhari to be authentic Hadith. Why? Many of his Hadith are classified as Gharib Hadith...questionable and not authentic...look it up. I am not required to baby-sit you on these blogs.

Better luck next time Kafir - I like the name on you - reminds me of Jaffar from Aladdin...

Humour Break-

He's Back and He's MAD!

GHANDI II

No More Mr. Passive Resistance!
He's out to Kick Some Butt!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfvLcozLwtE

Mischka writes: "But the Qur'an does not call for the killing of innocent people. Thats the truth."

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir says:
"(The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land.) `Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways."

Do you read "it includes disbelief"?

Tell us what is meant by the Quran when it says "Wage war against Allah and His Messenger"? Look up what Islamic Sharia says (it says what ibn Kathir says).

The catch which muslims always try to hide behind is "innocent people". Tell us whether those who do not believe in Allah or Muhammad innocent or guilty by your Allah's command in the Quran?

Mischka,

Good that you feel the righteous ire for now I start showing you what the Islamic history itself says. Instead of writing all the barbarity of ten years of Muhammad's life I will pick an incident at a time and show the kind of man he was. This is from Sahih Bukhari:

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 367:

Narrated 'Abdul 'Aziz:

Anas said, 'When Allah's Apostle invaded Khaibar, we offered the Fajr prayer there yearly in the morning) when it was still dark. The Prophet rode and Abu Talha rode too and I was riding behind Abu Talha. The Prophet passed through the lane of Khaibar quickly and my knee was touching the thigh of the Prophet . He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet. When he entered the town, he said, 'Allahu Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. Whenever we approach near a (hostile) nation (to fight) then evil will be the morning of those who have been warned.' He repeated this thrice. The people came out for their jobs and some of them said, 'Muhammad (has come).' (Some of our companions added, "With his army.") We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, 'O Allah's Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.' The Prophet said, 'Go and take any slave girl.' He took Safiya bint Huyai. A man came to the Prophet and said, 'O Allah's Apostles! You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.' So the Prophet said, 'Bring him along with her.' So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, 'Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.' Anas added: The Prophet then manumitted her and married her."

Thabit asked Anas, "O Abu Hamza! What did the Prophet pay her (as Mahr)?" He said, "Her self was her Mahr for he manumitted her and then married her." Anas added, "While on the way, Um Sulaim dressed her for marriage (ceremony) and at night she sent her as a bride to the Prophet . So the Prophet was a bridegroom and he said, 'Whoever has anything (food) should bring it.' He spread out a leather sheet (for the food) and some brought dates and others cooking butter. (I think he (Anas) mentioned As-SawTq). So they prepared a dish of Hais (a kind of meal). And that was Walrma (the marriage banquet) of Allah's Apostle ."

Khaibar is ruined. Safiya was given away as a slave. Have you ever read the history of Safiya? Muhammad butchered this 17 year old girls father and tortured her husband to extract where the treasure of the tribe was hidden. This is related by ibn Ishaq and Tabari in their history of Muammad. After killing her husband with torture (He lit a fire on her husbands chest according to Ishaq), he takes her into his tent the same night. One of his followers stands outside the tent all night worried what the bereaved Jewess might do to Muhammad. He has sex with her the same night.

You tell me what kind of man is he who kills a young girls family, tortures her husband, and has sex with her the same night? How do you think the girl must have felt? Is this the mercy to all mankind that you worship? Notice he is distributing kafirs as slaves. This is the great Islamic mercy?

This is only one incident. And his entire life is filled with such horrors.

Now let us see how you justify, killing and torture of her husband, how you justify Muhammad raping Safiya because that is what it was ( what do you call when a girls family is butchered and she is taken into the warlord's tent the same night?), and how you justify taking and distributing slaves.

Kafir -

"Mischka,

Islam is never at fault. Islam can never be at fault. Yea, we know your line."

And I know your line - "Lets kill all the Muslims, All Muslims are terrorists" blah blah blah

"What was the reason given for the $10 Million Dollar Bribe by Al-Qaeda to ISI to assassinate Bhutto? They quote the quran"

I bet they quote the Qur'an. And I bet every neanderthal out there who has not read the Qur'an thinks that the Holy book authorizes the killing of innocent people. That is the *terrorist* part my simple-minded friend. Terrorist groups will use the Qur'an to justify their blood lust. But the Qur'an does not call for the killing of innocent people. Thats the truth.

"hy the hadith that a woman may not lead her nation? I forget you would not know that hadith. You do not know many hadith, but you know your Islam."

I know Qur'an and that is enough for me -

In the entire Qur'an - you will not find a single verse forbidding a woman from being head of state.

:-)

Kafir - do me a favor and forever stay a Kafir. It suits you so well...I would hate to see you any other way.

"Prove what?
Which statement do you dispute?"

Prove every single barbaric allegation you are making against the Prophet (pbuh) on these blogs. I want references, sources, etc. All of it. Your lying is out of control and you need to be reminded that all you really are is an Islam-O-Hater. Another follower of that wierd Deb Chatterjee. You are nothing more then that.

"Do you really think the questions I am raising will go away?"

When people dont have any substance to back up their claims - they make a whole lot of noise to justify lack of evidence. That's all you are doing.

"I will provide you with the references and sources."

Good - now do it. I dare you to do it.

Victoria;
You wrote:
"you are mistaken in your understanding of the battles and who the Prophet(pbuh) fought.
he fought those who fought him, and tried to make peace at every opportunity with christians and jews-
there is no complusion in religion in islam- "

Why do you say this? This is a lie 100%!
You and the other angry lady from pureistan are constantly lying about what Mohammed said and did.
Until you let us know what sources you get this from please refrain from these blanket statements about your "last" prophet mohammed.

You claim to have read and studied Islam so well before submitting. Tell us where did you read this from? Besides Karen Armstrong who else did you consult?

Mischka,

Prove what?
Which statement do you dispute?
Do you really think the questions I am raising will go away? They are not lies and that is the reason they will not go away. Tell me which statement you want verified and I will provide you with the references and sources.

Mullah Revert,
Using multinicks and calling me a dog (which shows you are a muhammadan) proves what in your view?

A Kafir -

I have long since learned to ignore liars who choose to post their junk on here hoping to get a rise out of people.

Prove it.

A Kafir -

I have long since learned to ignore liars who choose to post their junk on here hoping to get a rise out of people.

Prove it.

(Kafir): I noticed the lonely dog is still barking in his boiler room cubicle provided by HA.

Dog mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Mischka,

Islam is never at fault. Islam can never be at fault. Yea, we know your line.

What was the reason given for the $10 Million Dollar Bribe by Al-Qaeda to ISI to assassinate Bhutto? They quote the quran.

Why the hadith that a woman may not lead her nation? I forget you would not know that hadith. You do not know many hadith, but you know your Islam.

Since you are so highly educated about Islam, please tell me, what was the crime of the Pagans, the jews, and the christians that your Prophet Butchered them and expelled them from their lands?
Why a complete lack of tolerance there? Don't run away from the question. Try answering it. I really want to see how you justify the barbarity of Muhammad.

G Norias -

"Yes Buhttos husband is a corrupto, however she had money long before he entered the picture."

Apparently not enough money - did you know that she and hubby were also charged with money laundering in Switzerland? Hm. Interesting.

"Most Presidents and PMs have problems with corruption in their administrations,
I don’t know who you support for office but they too are far from perfect."

I dont support anyone who is running for office right now in Pakistan. She was a strong woman - but the wrong woman for the job. Simple.

"You can spin it, paint it, deny and bury it, but this Muslim woman was murdered by Islamic religious tradition."

No one spun, painted, denied or buried anything. She was murdered for political reasons. Its as simple as that. She was not murdered by Islamic religious tradition - that sentence doesnt even make any sense. Get a grip - you are reading waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much CNN and need to get a reality check.

"Yes what a waste of life, and what a pity Muslim women will not unite behind one of their own."

You want me to stand behind a woman who stole from her own goverment and people? That would make a wonderful statement - what is this? A setup???

"Westerners are beginning to realize that Muslim women are content with their 2nd class status."

I am a Muslim woman and I have NO idea what you are talking about when it comes to second class status. Sorry - you will have to explain exactly what you think I can or cannot do.

"why is that Mischka? Middle East machismo such as honor killings, mandatory dress code, adherence to archaic customs that severely limit women’s potential and happiness is absurd."

I agree that the Middle East culture is WAY too strict. Almost to the point of insanity. However, its not Islam that is wrong here - its the people. Until the woman realize Islam does not stop them from being free - it shall continue.

"Benazir was a threat to those absurdities and she died for it."

She was a strong woman - but her murder was politically engineered. Just wait and see. It came at the most convenient time because terrorist groups will obviously get the blame for it. Your naivete is exactly what her assasins were hoping for and they got it.

You people are so easily manipulated and predictable it makes me sick.

Mr. Patel
Christians are being killed by Hindus in the Indian state of Orissa.
Why is the media ignoring what is going down in Orissa. Better question why have you and WAPO kept silent on this grave situation?

On Monday, the day before Christmas, a group in the Kandhamal district led by activists affiliated with the (World Hindu Council) attacked Christian institutions in the area, including a convent and seminary. Rioters also targeted two church-run hostels and high schools as well as many shops owned or run by Christians. Since Christmas Eve, similar groups have attacked Christians in their own homes,many Christian families are afraid to return to their homes due to fear of violence; as you read this many are hiding in nearby jungles.
Hindus have often attacked Christian missionaries and its converts. They accuse Christians of luring their poor and uneducated tribal people to convert to Christianity with money and promises. The Hindu of Orissa demanded and received a law requiring people to obtain police permission before they change their religion. That counters Christian missionary work and affords for an easier more efficient persecution of Christians.
It appears that news of Christians dying is no news at all.

Muhammad in the last ten years of his life went on "raids" once every three weeks on average!! These raids led to the killing, enslaving and destruction of thousands. Allah made booty legal for Muhammad, and he gifted slaves (the defeated non-muslims) to his followers. Each of Muhammad's ten wives had scores of slaves, and this is the man that is shamelessly promoted as a peaceful man !!!

Muhammad beheaded three leaders of his opponents, stuck their heads on spikes and put them out in the sun and taunted them for three days. When told by his followers that the three were dead, Muhammad assured them that they could hear them in Hell. This butcher broke his treaties and Allah not only sanctioned that but freed him of all obligations. It is in the Quran!!

Mullah revert compares this barbarian butcher of the 7th century Arabia with a literary and fictional setting of hindu mythology?

Woo woo land?

Victoria aka OBG,

What version of the koran are you reading??

Hmmm, and how does it treat "pretty wingie thingies" which you seem to have difficulty with?

yes thats true soja-
islam does not have an elitist priestly class-
or a heirarchy of religon
this points more to an egalitarianism in islam than aything else-

you are mistaken in your understanding of the battles and who the Prophet(pbuh) fought.
he fought those who fought him, and tried to make peace at every opportunity with christians and jews-
there is no complusion in religion in islam-

even the use of the word infidel is a christian term for unbelievers- not the word of kafir- or apostates -
and only if they are dealing treasonously against their former community-

the bhagavad gita takes place on a battlefield as arjuna prepares to go to war- it does indeed contain exhortations to fight a just war and search ones hearts-
it has become a householders manual- and delineates between householders and warriors- but it still contains a fair amount of treatise on the fighting of the war.

you are saying 2 different things-
first the muslims caused the hinduvta with their aggression-
then the hinduvta may only be guarding themsleves against past muslim treachery?

then you seem to iinsinuate that the hinduvta were upset that the muslim fought with them, helped liberate india from british rule- but then wanted them to stay and were upset that the muslims wanted their own country?

history does not indicate in any way that the hinduvta wanted the muslims around- much to the dismay of gandhi-

but it was pretty mutual-

are you saying the indians who were muslims shouldnt have fought against british imperialism if they felt unwelcome in india-

why make comparisons between the 2 anyway?

isnt that exactly feeding the fire of the fight and leading to more fighting and dissent?

Addendum

Mr Patel, Hinduism fortunately does not have the equivalent of Jihad (fighting the infidel), nor did any Hindu rishi, sannyasi or sage lead armies to batttle. As you are aware according to the caste system, the ruling class is inferior to the priest caste, Brahmin. Priests are advisors to rulers but they do not engage in battle. So there is big difference between Hinduism and Islam. Islam was established as a theocracy and Mohammad did happen to lead armies and fight battles with those who did not submit to Allah. In his day Arabians had to accept Allah and Mohammad's political rule. How the Muslims explain these things today or have explained it in the past may vary, but the fact remains the explanations have no parallels in Hinduism.

Lord Krishna and Arjuna of the Bhagavad Gita are not historical figures. The Gita does deal with the issue of just war (but it is NOT a manual for war but a spiritual handbook for a householder) in addition to other instructions for God-realisation. But the sense of the enemy which it is portrayed is the same that Jesus talked of when He said, 'your greatest enemies would be the members of your own family.' It is about fighting evil, no matter where one finds it, even if it is in one's family and in loved ones, including one's teacher. It is NOT about fighting the infidel, a person who follows another religion.

Hindu Scripture in Sanskrit differs considerably from Islamic Scripture in Arabic.

The rise of militant Hinduism may in part have to do with the rise of Islamic extremism worldwide. India with 138 million Muslims has reason to be anxious if the Islamic extremism should take root there and spread. It may be that Hindu militants choose to remember the less laudable aspects of the Islamic history of India and is not willing to be taken by surprise by Muslims again. Maybe it is meant to serve as warning to deter Muslim extremists. Who knows?

From the views expressed by some Hindus, they are not happy about the fact that Muslims who worked with Gandhi for Indian independance wanted a country of their own as soon as their goal was achieved. Looked at it that way one could even go on wonder if those Muslims who insisted on partition of India really worked for Indian independence or for an establishment of their own country with the help of Indian Hindus, merely taking on their common enemy, the British.

Anyway the Muslims who chose to stay in India are Indians first and Islam is merely the religion they happen to practise. Hinduism is after all known for its ability to reform itself, despite it notorious stay-the-sameness. So there is no reason to doubt that someone will rise up and help weed out the less laudable elements that have crept into it. I pray that it will happen and Hindus and Muslims will leave in peace and harmony all over India as most of them already do.

Dear Mr Patel

Thank you for writing about this important issue. Hindu fundamentalism in India, if it is on the rise, is not going away anytime soon. It is right to be wary.

As an Indian-Australian woman with dual citizenship, I still look upon all that happens in India as part of what is happening to my country. Militant Hinduism is scary, but I have known none of it living in the South for the first twenty eight years of my life. I am anxious about the safety of Muslims living in areas controlled by Hindu militants. I'm aware too that much of the Hindu-Muslim violence in India is instigated or made worse by militant Hindus. Some Catholic nuns and priests have had a hard time in some remote areas of the North too, although they are there to help the tribals who are rejected by the mainstream Hindu community.

The slogan supposedly wispered among Hindu militants, 'India for Hindus' is complete nonsense. At least as early as 2,500 years ago a major religion Buddhism was born. The universal acceptance inherent in Hinduism is its strongest asset, and if Hindu militants throw that away...

Most of my best friends in India have been Hindus. Almost all of my wonderful teachers have been Hindus. I would hate for their religion, which is not only very close to my heart but is also a part of my own religious belief, to be brought to shame by the Hindu militants.

Thank you for being one of many voices that speaks up and must go on speaking up until there is a shift in consciousness of the Indian masses, who alone can stop Hindu militant ideas from spreading its poison.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

An interesting write up in Jihad Watch:

Fitzgerald: Required: A DIFFERENT ATTITUDE BY THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT, AND BY ALL THE INFIDEL GOVERNMENTS
India, as the object of Islamic conquest, endured, over the centuries of Muslim rule and misrule, tens of millions of Hindu victims. India is a country that, at its Independence, was forced to give up large chunks of its territory on both sides to form West Pakistan (now Pakistan) and East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), in order to accommodate Muslim demands. In Pakistan, at Partition, 15% of the population was Hindu; it is now 1.5%. In Bangladesh, at Partition, 34% of the population was non-Muslim (Hindu and Buddhist); it is now 7%. Meanwhile, in India, the Muslim percentage of the population steadily rises.

In the Pakistan-held parts of Jammu and Kashmir, 400,000 Hindu Pandits have, by Muslim pressure, been driven out. In Indian-held Kashmir, terrorist attacks by Muslims, supported by Pakistani groups unchecked by, and at times supported by, the Pakistani army, have attempted to murder and terrorize the Hindus and drive them out. In India proper (a dangerous phrase, I admit, and I regret it, for it inadvertently concedes that Indian-held Kashmir somehow is different from "India proper" -- the same problem one has in referring to what is called the "West Bank" -- but cannot at the moment think of anything better than "India extra Kashmirem" on the old-map model of "India extra Gangem") there have been attacks, never or seldom reported in the West, for decades, of Muslims on Hindus. But every counter-attack by Hindus pushed to the limits of their endurance is given front-page coverage. We all know about the Hindu attacks on the mosque deliberately erected on the Hindu temple at Ayodha. We all know about the Hindu attacks on Muslims in Gujarat -- why, the State Department banned Narendra Modi, who ran the Gujarat government, from entering the United States.

But the provocations that prompted those attacks, the burning to death of Hindu pilgrims, is quickly glossed over in a sentence And all the other Muslim attacks, steadily, all over India -- those repeated bombs in Mumbai, killing bankers and tea-wallahs alike, set off by the Muslims who run the Bombay underworld (the head gangster sought, and found safe haven, in Pakistan), and even the attack by Muslims on the Parliament building in New Delhi --somehow none of them ever quite make any impression on the non-Indian world. That world remains so deeply uninterested in what is endured by Indians, and unsympathetic (but why?) to Hindus -- not quite to the same remarkable extent as the world has shown itself willing to accept the unendurable position that the Lesser Jihad has forced Israel into, but close...................deleted

More deaths, injury, injustice, all in the name (excuse?) of religion! Religion has been used since time began as an excuse for one group taking advantage of another group. Mankind has found that some logic will be found in any kind of depravity, as long as it is carried out in the name of some religion or offshoot thereof.

All religions started out by someone stating some sort of belief, which was repeated and repeated by many people until it was accepted by some as "the true word of God". When men (not women) learned to write, the "word" became the accepted belief of a group, who then would defend the "word" with their (or others') lives. All of these various beliefs had some common rules: Men ran the show, wrote the holy books and carried out the punishment of those who dared to violate any of the silly rules which were imposed upon the poor souls who were down the ladder of authority. The single aim of the whole idea was to keep the powerful in power by dictating what the common folk should do, say or believe, to avoid some horrible real or imagined penalty. Man may invent wonders, go to the moon and do some marvelous things, but he will never be a wholly civilized being until he sees through the evil and cruel hoax which we call "Religion".

AntiA,

How did you get to Eboo being a schizo from this article?

Excessive, compulsive behavioral disorder. Very close to schizophrenia! Was that the diagnosis for you?

AKafir asks-

"Why does Islam damage the neurons so badly?"

Did you watch the utube (posted below) of Saudi TV Newscaster Buthayna Nasser?

What she said is worth repeating:

"Walid wondered how I, as a newscaster, can describe Saudi society as being brainwashing. There is nothing to be surprising about, Dr. Walid. From the age of six or seven, from elementary school until high school, when we reach the age of 18, and even later, when we go to university - we memorize, memorize, and memorize. Whoever dares to argue or to question anything is called upon to ask for Allah’s forgiveness. He is told that this will get him into Hell. You, who frighten people with Hell, have brought them a hell upon earth.

You have banned books of the various intellectual streams. You’ve prevented the mind from operating, thinking, comparing, and choosing, even though it is the same mind that the Creator gave people in order to choose between Paradise and Hell. Our Lord honored Man by giving him the freedom to choose his path in this life, and the consequences are revealed in the world to come. Deeds are measured by the intent, and, as the Great Teacher taught us, good intentions steer our behavior. Yes sir, we are being brainwashed on a daily basis…"

And Mullah ji,
Bush won despite Michael's hack jobbie, and Modi won despite the Maoists hack jobbie.
Deal with it.

Mullah Revert ji:

Michael Moore defining G. W. Bush?
A CPM hack writing a political article two weeks before the elections? This is your source?

Why does Islam damage the neurons so badly?

Maybe next time Mr. Eboo will try to be less biased and more inclusive in his essay.

hi jacob- happy every day!

k- read the article, then disseminate the info-

the article is about the treatment of the dalits(untouchable caste) by the RSS who insitgated the entire massacre at gujarat-
out of 1577, only 30 were from the upper (brahmin) caste- the rest have been left by their own party to rot in jail for (6 years).

i always say this and believe it-
go to the source and let people define themselves.

since the subject is indians, let indians speak for themsleves.

with the indo-us nuke deal, with pakistan possessing the bomb- with the years of fighting over kashnir-

mr patel is focusing on an area that is under great pressure-
and on forces that are encouraging bloodshed-
as he said, totalitarianism is totalitarianism

whatever quarter it comes from- the muslim brotherhood, the RSS, zionist colonialism, kenya(recently)sudan,etc etc....
when people are being oppressed-
reasonable people must notice and speak out

Truth:

Your post: Do you get paid for continuing this kind of name calling? When will this madness stop? Is there a monopoly on truth?

Truth:

Your post: Do you get paid for continuing this kind of name calling? When will this madness stop?

Why Pakistan is the most dangerous place in the world today? Muslims created Pakistan (land of holy people) out of United India and ethnically cleansed all Hindus-sikhs. Now they are killing themselves, blasting bombs in their own mosques, this is the true nature of Muhamedism.

Eboo Patel, you need to look at your own dirts. And not point fingers on others. Why there are so many countries, about 50, with prefix Islamic? How they got created as one-religion nation, Islamic? If Islam is so beautiful thing, why you can't tolerate believers of other faiths? Do you allow non-muslims to live in these Islamist countries? Why you don't allow Bible, Bhagavad-Gita to carry in Saudi Arabia? Aha, you can migrate to USA, UK, Canada, Europe, India and within few days demand for equal rights. Why not you allow non-muslims to enter your Islamic nation bastons and give them equal rights? World has waked-up to reality of Muhamedism Jihadi Terrorism and determined to crush it.

Why Pakistan is the most dangerous place in the world today? Muslims created Pakistan (land of holy people) out of United India and ethnically cleansed all Hindus-sikhs. Now they are killing themselves, blasting bombs in their own mosques, this is the true nature of Muhamedism.

Eboo Patel, you need to look at your own dirts. And not point fingers on others. Why there are so many countries, about 50, with prefix Islamic? How they got created as one-religion nation, Islamic? If Islam is so beautiful thing, why you can't tolerate believers of other faiths? Do you allow non-muslims to live in these Islamist countries? Why you don't allow Bible, Bhagavad-Gita to carry in Saudi Arabia? Aha, you can migrate to USA, UK, Canada, Europe, India and within few days demand for equal rights. Why not you allow non-muslims to enter your Islamic nation bastons and give them equal rights? World has waked-up to reality of Muhamedism Jihadi Terrorism and determined to crush it.

Why Pakistan is the most dangerous place in the world today? Muslims created Pakistan (land of holy people) out of United India and ethnically cleansed all Hindus-sikhs. Now they are killing themselves, blasting bombs in their own mosques, this is the true nature of Muhamedism.

Eboo Patel, you need to look at your own dirts. And not point fingers on others. Why there are so many countries, about 50, with prefix Islamic? How they got created as one-religion nation, Islamic? If Islam is so beautiful thing, why you can't tolerate believers of other faiths? Do you allow non-muslims to live in these Islamist countries? Why you don't allow Bible, Bhagavad-Gita to carry in Saudi Arabia? Aha, you can migrate to USA, UK, Canada, Europe, India and within few days demand for equal rights. Why not you allow non-muslims to enter your Islamic nation bastons and give them equal rights? World has waked-up to reality of Muhamedism Jihadi Terrorism and determined to crush it.

Soon after independence, the late Jawahar Lal Nehru got Hindu Code bill passed. Very honest and good intentions for reforming Hindu society. Gandhiji tried to uplift the Dalits.

The question today is: Does simply passing the laws eliminate society's thousands of years of traditions and belief systems? If passing the laws was enough there would be no crime in any country.

Protestantism arose centuries ago as a protest. The result: thousands of new denominational churches emerged. Catholics and Protestants fight each other in dogmatic ways.

Hindu caste system is still intact. The untouchables still suffer. The newborn females still get aborted. The dowry is still given and taken.

The elite of Islam (S. Arabia) misuse the faith by using the wealth and power and disgrace their faith. Multiple marriages and divorcing (for one-time consumation) is corrupting Islam. Many more ills.

It is simplistic and naive to simply call for reform by using abusive language against Hindus, Christians, Jews, or Muslims.

I do not know the answer for my own questions. May be, just may be, we all should search our hearts and sit down and talk and educate the masses. I realize this too is simplistic.

Mischka
Yes Buhttos husband is a corrupto, however she had money long before he entered the picture. Most Presidents and PMs have problems with corruption in their administrations,
I don’t know who you support for office but they too are far from perfect.
You can spin it, paint it, deny and bury it, but this Muslim woman was murdered by Islamic religious tradition.
Yes what a waste of life, and what a pity Muslim women will not unite behind one of their own. Westerners are beginning to realize that Muslim women are content with their 2nd class status, why is that Mischka? Middle East machismo such as honor killings, mandatory dress code, adherence to archaic customs that severely limit women’s potential and happiness is absurd.
Benazir was a threat to those absurdities and she died for it. To plead these murders case as you have is pathetic.
chow

The message is to fight the communal forces in India, like Modi, that are killing Christians & Muslims in the name of democracy.

Ibrahim Mahfouz:

Just by Changing name one doesn't become Muslim, You need to accept with your heart & mind. When you accept ISLAM you need to practice.

Don't ever of dream people living in Makkah Al Mukarramah like the way you think. They are morally honest and the most pious people in the world.

Your wishful article is far from truth & thus . . .lacks credibility

His followers held hostage about 1,000 Elementary school children in Balarus, Russia for 3-4 days in inhumane conditions-not allowing them to go outside the room for bathroom.

Ended up massacring about 400 children.

This Mohamed's message being repeated by his followers day in day out. Real Muslim compassion.

India has opened its doors to persecuted religious communities from all over the world - Jews, Parsees, Tibetan Buddhists, Baha'is. And now, under Hindutva, India is crushing that same diversity that is its source and strength.

The re-election of Narendra Modi is a setback for the forces of Secularism, in India and around the world.

The re-election of Narendra Modi is a setback for the forces of Secularism, in India and around the world.

The re-election of Narendra Modi is a setback for the forces of Secularism, in India and around the world.

The re-election of Narendra Modi is a setback for the forces of Secularism, in India and around the world.

CONCERNED:
typo error
abraham lived about 2500 bc NOT AD.

CONCERNED:
abraham was not the founder of islam!
while there is no doubt that abraham founded the jews, they claim him and have contemporary writings about him, there is no proof as to islam.
abraham lived about 2500 ad and was not claimed by moho the child rapist until about 585 ad, 3,000 years later. he said it so that he could claim that he was the missah, and when the jews would not so agree, he killed as many of them as he could find, as his followers do today.
the only reasom mohommad made the claim was he was nuts. there is not one bit of evidence that the child of abraham and his wife's maid - hagar - the child was named ishmael - was the direct ancestor of that viel waste of human flesh - mohommad, may he suck therod of hitler for ever in hell.

Back to the reality of it all:

For the "newbies",

A synopsis of the flaws in the foundations of today's contemporary religions:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

3. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

4. Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The Islamic, warmongering, Shiite, terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site)

- "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

SAM:
it is a islamic - christian and jew fight, it was started by that child rapist moho, who wed a 6 year old and bedded a 9 year old. so we are supposed to forget that this fight was started 1400 years ago by that islamic scum? we are supposed to pretend someone else is the cause.
well read the koran and learn, as that book of death, like mein kampf, sets out the plans wrold hate and conquest.

My Goddess.

I think tears are the only sane response to a thread like this.

Mullah Revert ji,

What does the link you provide demonstrate?

1. It is an Indian Newspaper.
2. The author is a woman from Kolkatta.
3. The earlier movies of her on the issue was not banned. No one issued any death threats against her.
4. Her article was published and read freely by the Indians.
5. Her article was published just before the elections in Gujrat.
6. The elections were held freely and openly. No one is complaining about the elections being stolen.

I can keep going but what does it show to you? Let me help you: Democracy is healthy and working in India. They have an independent judiciary. They have a free press and they are allowed to say anything against their leaders and religions without facing death and threats of bodily harm.

Now do you want to show a single example in the over 57 Muslim countries around the world that come even remotely close to any of these criteria?

Here are some questions for you?
1. Is there any muslim country where one publish a cartoon on muhammad?
2. Is there any muslim country that is democracy?
3. Is there any muslim country with an independent Judiciary?

Do you get the picture? It is standard Muhammadan procedure to tell that every one else is at fault. Eboo is not the first one to try that tack and he will obviously not be the last one.

Thank you for showing that the Indians are handling their affairs without causing international mayhem and blowing trains and planes and exploding all over the place.

rakesh sharmas independent film-

Chet'ta Rejo (Beware) shows another face of inhumanity in Gujarat. Over its 72 minutes of running time, the film explores and exposes the saffronisation of the Dalit-OBC population and its consequent plight. Its focus is on the patterns of arrests and litigations since the 2002 riots. It shows how most of those charged with rioting, arson, murder and similar crimes are either tribal or Dalits and OBCs. The analysis of those arrested from 32 police stations in Ahmedabad suggests that of the 1577 detainees, only 30-odd belonged to upper castes. "Are these foot soldiers victims too? Cynically recruited, then discarded, left to rot in jails, what do the perpetrators of the violence feel today about the VHP and the BJP?"

http://www.indiatogether.org/2007/dec/rvw-sharma.htm

Sam,
Here is another letter in another Pakistani Newspaper supporting your thesis but he also includes Christians.
http://www.paktribune.com/speakout/index.php?id=30

"There is an agreed agenda of HANOOD, YAHOOD and Christens against Muslims for the last so many centuries and it will continue till the last day of this planet Earth. Interfaith
phenomenon is a farce, which may appeal to a westernized Muslim, but even a simple illiterate follower of Islam, not a fundamentalist one, knows what has been revealed 1400 years in his Holy Book.

Mir Tabassum Mairaj, Pakistan "

Why don't you tell the readers why this Muslim is convinced that the Quran revealed 1400 years ago that jews and christians are enemies of the Muslims. Muhammad called Hindus, polytheists and pagans, and simply called for their annihilation.
Why do you think this "average" muslim of Pakistan is so sure that Allah is telling you in the Quran that Jews, Christians, and the Hindoos are your enemy? Really why does Allah hate the kafirs so much?

Sam,

You are not the only one who thinks that. A fellow Muhammad (in California, USA) writes to his newspaper in Pakistan:

http://www.dawn.com/2007/09/07/letted.htm

why are we poor, defeated, unproductive, uninnovative, illiterate, divided, sectarians, killing each other in the name of religion, begging for everything from the West, loving to live in the West, hating each other, and so on? The answer lies in the loss of religious character.

We believe that our biggest problem is the West or Kashmir, Palestine, the ever increasing obscenity or Musharraf uniform. Every cleric in every sermon will declare that all our problems are from Yahood, Hanood, and Nisara.

I strongly believe that our biggest problem is our morally bankrupt religiosity which is eager to wage a jihad on others to implement Islam but it is never able to see the worst kind of moral evils in their own ranks.

It has guns in its hands, religious slogans on tongues, hearts are devoid of God�s fear and characters are uninfluenced by the grace of the Prophet�s personality.

Quite often I think that if Muslims were facing God�s wrath and punishments, there was nothing else causing it to happen save the manifestation of the Almighty�s justice.

If people of such character are representing the leadership of Islam and the common man is content with following them in large numbers, the Almighty, it seems, is content with the destruction and ignominy of Muslims.

God has no blood relations with any nation. He deals with all peoples on merit.

If the torch-bearers of Islam are people of such low character, then be sure that the decline of Muslims is not coming to an end as yet.

As long as the character of Muslims, in general, and their leadership, in particular, would not change, neither their present nor their future would change.

A. SIDDIQI
Northridge, CA USA

He says just as you do but he adds christians to the list:
Every cleric in every sermon will declare that all our problems are from Yahood, Hanood, and Nisara.

Yahood means jews, Hanood means Hindus, and Nisara means Christians.

A. Siddiqi has it mostly right except the cure. He recommends more of the same poison that is the root of all problems of the Ummah. The strange disease, wanting more or what is killing them!!

Guys dont fall in RSS trap. They are trying to make it Muslim-Christian and Muslim-Jew fight. They do the same thing back home. They create animosity between poor backward class Hindus and Muslims, so that poor people from both these community get killed and destroy each others property. This is not an Islam discussion blog.
We should try to expose the real danger of 21st century-R S S the fascist, chauvanist organisation who have already killed millions of
Dalits [ please log on to www.dalitvoice.com the only journal of untouchables of India] Muslims and christians.
How hard Arif [golwaker] Ibrahi mahfouz [Nathuram godse] and other R S S sympathisers try
they are not going to succed

Miscka:
You tell Kafir that Islam respects women's rights.
Below is how much.

Muslim preachers and advocates in the West, preach and lecture that “Islam elevated the status of women”. That message is not dealt with in the mosques and airwaves of Muslim countries because they know the audience there know better. The above italicized macabre claim would not be made to the people of the West either if it were not for the prevalent perception among the Arab and Arabised Muslims that the Westerners in general and the people of the United States in particular are “simple minded” and gullible. Their denigrating assessment of the “other” is the processing of a fettered nomadic tribal mindset prone to exclusivity and obsessed with visions of bygone triumphs.

The term “elevate” in the above claim implies improvement in the quality of Muslim women’s life since pre-Islamic times --pre 630 AD, which they refer to as the “Age of Ignorance”. The Prophet of Islam, Mohammed (570-632AD), married his first wife, Khadija (555-620A D), in Mecca , Hejaz, during the pre-Islamic period. She lived all of her 65 years in the “Age of Ignorance”. Let us compare her “status” with that of present day (2008AD) women of her hometown, Mecca, to gauge the extent Islam had “elevated” the social standing of women over the past fourteen hundred years.

Khadija bint Khuwailed was a wealthy literate woman who owned a huge commercial enterprise as well as a fleet of more than 500 camels to transport her wares. She hired Mohammad to travel with her caravans to Yemen and Syria as manager of her trading business. She divorced two husbands and never was in a polygamous relationship. She proposed marriage to Mohammad when she was 40 and he was 25. He never took another wife while married to her and their marriage lasted 25 years, ending with her death. She never veiled her face and traveled freely.

How many women in Mecca today can read and write and own their own businesses? How many women in Mecca today have a say about their prospective husbands let alone propose to them or divorce them? How many women in Mecca today are living in a monogamous marriages or married to a younger man? How many Meccan women show their faces or travel alone? How then did Islam elevate women? Is it by institutionalizing polygamy and the culture of concubines? Mohammad’s mother and grandmothers, all of whom lived in the pre-Islamic era, did not share their husbands with other wives, yet he had 9 wives and unknown number of concubines at the time of his death. Is this the way Islam and its founder elevated women? Or by ruling that women inherit half their brother’s share and their testimony, when accepted, counts as equivalent to only half that of a man? Or maybe by making it “Halal” or lawful for men to lie to their wives and beat them? Is it by giving the man the right to divorce simply by uttering the sentence “I divorce you” three times, or by institutionalizing the practice of female genital mutilation they call “Khatan ”? How is that elevating to women? How does any of those above mentioned practices that were institutionalized and spread by Islam to include over a billion people today could have improved upon the status and welfare of a pre-Islamic woman such as Khadija?

The Arabian Peninsula had many powerful and influential women during the “Age of Ignorance”. The famous Queen Balqees or Queen of Sheba ruled a thriving and prosperous Sheba (Yemen), just south of Hejaz, three thousand years ago . Sujaj, Um Qirfa, Um Zumol were chieftains of their Hejaz tribes. Afra and Zabra were High Priestesses, a position comparable to a Prime Minister. All the above lived before Islam. Al Khansaa was a popular prime poetess in Mecca during Mohammad’s time. How many notable or influential Muslim women from Hejaz or the whole Arabian Peninsula have you heard of? The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, which includes Hejaz as a province, had only very recently allowed girls into schools. Women there are not allowed to vote, drive a car or even walk outside their enclosed courtyards unless covered completely from top to bottom with black shrouds called Niqab and escorted by either the father, a brother, a son or husband.

The people in the West read the books from which the Muslims derive their Sharia or Religious Law, and have observed the Muslims’ practices as well as know their history. The West did not get to their present level of eminence in all of human endeavors by being ignorant, illiterate, passive or closed- minded. The whole world knows now the status of women under the Sharia. The Muslim missionaries in the West need to be very well aware that their audience are steeped in a culture that respects honesty and practices critical thinking. Such misleading and easily verifiable claim as "Islam elevated the status of women" will only further diminish the credibility of Muslims and tarnish their religion.

Freespirit

YOU ARE AWESOME.

Hey Eboo-- did you get caught in a lie?

Al Taqiyya (islamic deception)???

Mullah Revert ji,

How many nicks do you use? You talk about "lack of integrity"? Lol! Do you even know what it means?

And you can claim what ever you like for yourself. We don't even know you are woman, let alone as free as Khadija, O Mulllah ji. 1440 years of Islamic history and the pre-islamic Ansari Women had more freedom than the muslim women have had since!! Says something.

Your freedoms comes from the Constitution of the US and not the hate filled Quran that you are pushing so with such effort. Learn to make that distinction for your own sake, if you can.

Victoria is self-consumed. Certainly as a Muslim woman- she is in the minority. I've been sharing these posts with others online and will print them out to share with others. Should make interesting conversation.

This youtube may be of interest to readers.

A Saudi woman speaks-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH12fGYrRqQ

again veritas you wrote-

". Air conditioned office? Try women forced from their homes with nothing but their surviving children (many of them having been beaten, raped, and maimed) packed into camps with no water or sewage. The Muslim women on this forum are nothing like the QUIET,EVEN, SUBSERVIENT Muslim women I know."
ALSO- my work already has safe homes set up in Europe. "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
this is from the article you quoted-

"After he made those comments, two women in hijabs INTERUPTED HIM AND STARTED TO DISAGREE, before ABRUPTLY LEAVING the gym where the conference was being held.

hello!!! muslim women acting independently and questioning their leaders opinions!

wile you seem to consider mischka and i anomalies for being bright and speaking up- instead referriing to the "quiet,subservient women" youve known.

what planet of sexists are you orbiting in from?

i didnt ask what OTHER people experienced-
i didnt ask what your workplace did-

you are associating yourself with others suffering, as if that somehow ennobles you-

its THEIR suffering, not yours.
unless you are actually DOING something-

women can't be programmed and sexist?
thats like saying only white people can be racist!

your full of contradictions and judgements-

while you accuse mischka unfairly of projecting when she is making political observations-
you go on to project in the most illogical fashion-

to talk about others suffering, while personally doing nothing-
and then to come in and attack muslim women!

and to think you have some insight because you looked in from the outside in sudan?

and have the novice opinion that muslim women should be quiet?

welcome to 2008 sans veritas!

so we dont fit your misogynist perception of what muslimahs are from your limited experience-

and my 30 some years of ACTIVE WORK IN THE STREETS AND SHELTERS is sidelined by your stint in an office in sudan?

please dont bother us with your intentions, or the good other people may be doing-
\until you have a few years under your belt of the work yourself-

quit trying to horn in on the wiorks of others as if it reflects on you somehow.

come back when youve done it yourself instead of talk talk and judge those you have only the most peripheral information about.

k- IM A MUSLIM WOMAN WHOSE HAD A GREAT DEAL MORE FREEDOM THAN KHADIJA-
what century are you living in , anyway.
pikey

are you all so xenophobic, that while india has the bomb, and pakistan has the bomb, bhutto was just assassinted- and the topic is hindu nationalism-

all the brains in here can comment on is there own xenophobic prejudices?

how boring!

Mr. Patel,

No one in Islam has any right to criticize Hindus, and particularly Hindus in India. That right was forfeited in 1947 when Muhammad Ali Jhinna split India into Hindu and Islam and took his piece as Pakistan. He also took his Islamies along with him. There ended the rights of any Islamist including you, to say anything about us Hindus in India. India is actually Hindustan or Bharat, the land of Bharata if you do not know. If it wasn’t for the magnanimity of the Hindus, there won’t be a single Musselman in India except for diplomats and visitors. It has always been the Achilles’ heels of the Hindus, magnanimity and oneness with all other living things. It is a noble and rewarding philosophy for all the rest of the world’s people except the Muslims. When the wild buffalo is charging, you don’t stand there and preach, you act decisively.

I still remember the hundreds of train loads of dead bodies of Hindus sent back from Pakistan after the partition. On the other hand the Hindus, following the principles of Mahatma Gandhi, Lord Buddha, Emperor Ashoka, and Lord Krishna, allowed all Muslims wanting to leave safe passage unhindered. The ones who stayed back felt no reprisals. Your own miserable family survived and prospered in Hindustan. Show me one Hindu in Pakistan/Bangladesh who has that privilege. Show me one instance where a Hindu can criticize your Koran in Pakistan and live to talk about it. The jihadi M.F.Hussain paints Hindu Gods and Goddesses in such derogatory manner and still lives. The old bastard takes comfort knowing the inherent goodness of the Hindus while a cartoon about your Mohammed brought out the entire jihadi world seeking death and destruction. Islam is the Arab’s way, and I feel pity for any one with Indian blood calling him/her a Muslim. Check your DNA and see how much Arab genes you have. Even your name is a reflection of your Hindu ancestors who were magnanimous enough to let you keep it.

The greatest injustice Nehru and Mahatma Gandhi perpetrated on the Indians and Hindus is not allowing Sardar Vallabhai Patel (Not your relation) to clear out Hindustan of all Muslims when the window of the golden opportunity was there. Now India pays the price. The Musselmen there are now agitating for their own sharia laws. They want Urdu to be their official language, and their own court systems. Imagine that in this country. Unfortunately, there are some politicians who want to appease the Muslims and are willing to accept that for short term personal gains. There is an ancient proverb, ‘show the crow some leeway, and he will perch on your head’.

Narendra Modi is a wonderfully capable leader, and I hope there will be more like him in the future to stem the tide of the jihadi march in India. The train fire in Godra, Gujarat was set by your jihadis. They barricaded the train doors and set fire to the cars, burning to death the Hindutva volunteers returning from an Ayodhya rally. In the times of the Mahatma, he would have preached non violence and forgiveness. Well, times have a changed. Rightfully the Hindus retaliated and all Muslims were affected. To me, there is no such thing as a good Muslim. You are all the same. The sins of the jihadis must be born by all of your community. If you don’t feel justice in India, well, Pakistan is next door. Why not emigrate? Take the rest of you with you while you are at it. If your family enjoys freedom and privileges in India, it is because of the goodness of us Hindus, not because you deserve it or earned it. If your people are still backward in India, it is not because of lack of opportunities. The Koran has a track record of pulling civilization back to the Neanderthals.

Finally, your mouth has no right to utter the names of Buddha, Gandhi, Vivekananda, Ashoka, Rama, Krishna or the holy name of Bhagavat Gita. Stick with your Koran and leave the holy Gita to us. Your breed will neither understand it nor its greatness. All Hindus must act, and remove the threat of the Muslims from all of Hindustan. It is our home land and not yours.

Rational writes:
"My view is that there is a need for reform in every religion. People must look both inward and outward."

Exactly. You are absolutely correct. The question is how to reform Islam? The first thing is to be honest about what it is and what it says. Asking any muslim to honest tell you why does Allah of the Quran hate the non-muslims with a fanatical passion? The sunnah of Muhammad is mostly barbaric and unfit for the 21st century. He married a six year old and had sex with her when she was nine. That is the reason why 60, 70, year olds in the middle east are still marrying 6 and 7 year olds. The Sharia allows it and no government is willing to stand up and say that part of Muhammad's sunnah is outdated. The legal age of marriage in a lot of muslim countries is either first menstruation (and that can be even for a four year old) or nine years of age. Why? Muhammad's Sunnah!! Looking inwards with honesty and truthfully for muslims is nearly impossible. Why? Because Muhammad was far far from being a nice guy.

lux et veritas:

In the Chicago Land area, an unbelievable crime was committed by a man in his 60s who burned down an entire apartment complex in which several people died. The reason: This Hindu man's daughter married a lower caste man against the wishes of her father.

Many quarrels ensued and this led to his crime. This happened just this last week.

I am reporting this here without knowing further details. This was reported in the press in Chicago Land area?

People have a habit of generalizing about other religions and cultures and often end up in perpetuating myths about other people.

In India, this kind of thing happens all the time which may lead to tragedies of similar nature.

So, what does it prove?

My view is that there is a need for reform in every religion. People must look both inward and outward.

Chagrined writes in the style of my favorite Mullah Revert:

"Your statement was false when you implied that Muslim women are forced to cover their bodies. No one is telling anybody to appoint a "board" to monitor morality. This is twisting words.
It is important for the bloggers to know that Muslims or Christians are not the only ones who are reading or participating in this dialog. You have distinctly left an impression that your lifetime goal is to demean Islam and you show your paranoia about this. I guess bigots don't know that they are bigots.
Most of us couldn't care less if you are an ex-Muslim or not."

My lifetime goal is to liberate muslims and Islam, not demean it as you say. But I do not expect you to understand.
As for my lying about women being forced to cover up, here is a link:
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2007/09/16/saudi-arabia-sex-segregated-sidewalks-and-women-car-driving/

- Saudi Arabia’s religious police are insisting that authorities of Medina, one of Islam’s holiest cities, should build separate sidewalks for women, the Kuwaiti Al-Qabas newspaper said Friday.
saudi_women_sidewalkThe country’s Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (CPVPV), tasked with enforcing Sharia law, believes men and women should not be allowed to mix on the streets of the Islam’s second holiest place, where the Prophet Muhammad is buried.
The clerical police, or Mutaween, are authorized to arrest unrelated men and women caught socializing, anyone suspected of being homosexual or a prostitute, and to enforce Islamic dress codes.
The Mutaween enforce Islamic female dress codes, ordering women to wear headscarves and abayas, long black dresses covering the whole body except for face, hands and feet. Women are not allowed to leave their houses without their husbands or immediate male relatives.
Saudi women are also not allowed to ride a bicycle or drive a car, because if the vehicle breaks down, a woman might have to talk to an unknown male.
The police widely apply corporal punishment, including flogging, to punish suspected offenders.

I guess by your standards muslims do not live in Saudi Arabia. Then talk to Arif here and he will tell you how free women are in Pakistan. Mullah ji, learn to deal with facts.

Mishka-

Consider this taken from a Canadian paper following the murder of Aqsa Parvez:

"Mohammad Iqbal Alnadvi, a marriage counsellor and religious expert at the Al-Fatah Islamic Centre in Oakville, said he believes it's important for parents in Muslim families to give their daughters a choice when it comes to decisions of dress.

"My daughter, she's going into Grade 11, and she's taking the hijab,'' Alnadvi said.

"I never asked her to take the hijab, but I DEVELOPED A MENTALITY IN HER TO CHOOSE" (he made it clear- she must comply)

ALSO-

"The comments came at a tense news conference at the Islamic Society of North America Canada headquarters in Mississauga, held three days after the alleged s