All Comments (131)

Eboo,

How did you marry a Muslim woman? That's pretty impressive. Didn't you know that Muslim men try and marry the Hindu women? It's their secret agenda to convert and breed us out. You make me proud! Chalk one up for the Hindus!!!

-Shal

arif- for one who doesnt believe in hadeeth- it surely has impacted your concept of Muhammad(pbuh)

you have to be consistent-

if you're going to believe them- (as you obviously are using them as your source for your opinions about the Prophet(pbuh)

then you have to believe the ones that contradict the ones you believe.

the good ones, they may not support your feelings- but they are exponentially greater in number than the few youve focused on-
which, are conflicted with the qu'ran, and the bulk of the hadeeth-

which one is it?

Question:

What was Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage?

It is normally believed that she was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (sws) was consummated. I do think it was according to the traditions of the Arab culture, as otherwise people would have objected to this marriage. But unfortunately, the modern day man is not satisfied with an answer as simple as that.

Answer:

To begin with[1], I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single reliable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.

In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly misreported in the narratives of the incident. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy-one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medinah for seventy-one years.

Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham, which were reported through people of Iraq (Vol. 11, pg. 48 - 51).

Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly (Vol. 4, pg. 301 - 302).

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an , was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th Surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not even only an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why should we not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden upon them.

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma (ra) died in the 73rd year after hijrah[2] when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in the 73rd year after hijrah, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra) - if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH - was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH - the time she most likely got married.

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not even have been born during the first year of Islam.

Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr (ra) planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am - with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged at that time - and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam. Subsequently, his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

1st May 1998

[1] The answer to this question is primarily based on the research by Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi (urdu) as presented in his booklet, "Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat", Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan

[2] That is, the migration of the Prophet (pbuh)

read this cut and pasteand see if it makes sense-
do the math ( i did)
peace

Hello Victoria,
In a recent conversation with an old friend of mine, a Muslim from my home country confessed that early on he doubted Islam, the Koran and Mohammed's prophecy. However after certain trials in his life he reverted back and is now a very devout Muslim. I asked him several questions but one that sticks out I'll ask you the same;
What is in the koran that you find divine? What is written there that one can say are truly words of a Creator of the Universe?
I never got a satisfactory answer, the verses he quoted were quite ordinary, something a mere human could reproduce. In fact what he quoted from the koran I showed him comparable sayings by mere mortals far superior. He has promised that he will show me some more on doing more research... I still wait.

Yo’ve said something like this often...
"id say that your inabililty to accept my love of the Prophet(pbuh) and the value ive found in islam- is clouded by your own personal hatred- of same."

I may have shared some anecdotes that portrayed my uncle or parents in a negative way for that I'm sorry. I don't fault them for what they did, in fact my family is a very loving and kind one. I grew up in a wonderful atmosphere, I have great respect for them and how they have shaped my life. At that time I believed in everything Islam had and loved the prophet dearly. I would never have left islam had I not left Pakistan.
It is only America’s fault that I now see things differently and cannot accept Islam, the koran and mohammed as a prophet. I find mohemmed a repilsive man and I'll share my views on him with you if time and the opportunity present itself.

You said:
"even in christianity, there was no call for the people of the nations to be a part of it- that is all inventions of paul-"
I don't care because the Christians are not a threat to the world, Muslims are.

Also...
"i recommend you go to a synagogue and express an interest in judaism and a desire to convert, and see how readily you are "accepted".
Now why would I want to have religion over my head, why after I have shaken one yolk off my neck would I want another mind numbing noose around my neck? No thanks! I'm not interested in religious mind control. Great many people need a religion to guide them or save them, I however don't. I don't subscribe to a God who punishes and kills his own creation, or one who finds pleasure in his creation bowing to him or being his slaves. One who dictates grammatically poor verses to angels and a menacing misogynist man. Which brings me to another point, why does the koran have so manny grammatical errors? Why does it seem that Allah is talking sometimes and other times it is clearly mohammed talking? Why does Allah switch from first person to third person?

Your cousin; tragic indeed she made a bad choice and the other bad choice is that she never ditched him.
Why are you telling me that story? Is Christianity bad? Jesus made a grave error when he said marry only once? Compare that to what Mohammed did, he had multiple wives, also he had a child bride something we call pedophilia in the west. Lets see what Mohammed did, the koran limits four wives but there is a special dispensation for Moahmmed, he has unlimited women! How convenient, handy dandy Allah just issues another sura and Walla Mohammed can marry again. After Khadija died (he did not dare mess with her because she was powerful and rich) he goes wild. Mohammed raped women captured in his raids. What about when mohmmed visited his wife Hafsa, he lies to her and sends her off to see her father, and then he rapes Mariyah the slave maid. Hafsa comes back only to learn Mr. Prophet is bonking her maid. She makes a scene, to keep her quiet he promises he'll keep his little head checked. But he doesn't dose he? Look at the handy verse that suddenly pops up 66:1-5. What is this nonsense you believe in Victoria??
This Prophet of yours takes his son Zeid's wife too! People object but handy dandy Allah comes to the rescue again!!! Thereby banning and frowning upon adoptions for Muslims forever. How can one believe in such a vial person AND above all else claim him to be a prophet!
There’s plenty more but I'll stop unless you really want me to continue.

If the whole world converted to Christianity or became Jewish or Buddhists or even became Hindus the world would carry on and people would get along with one another. However that cannot be said about Islam, Islam polarizes people, first it polarizes Muslims against all non-Muslims. Then it is self destructive. Pakistan a Muslim country also has the second largest Muslim population in the world. In the absence of an external enemy they turn upon themselves. See the recent news, brother killing brother. There is a quote in the Bible that just about sums it all up beautifully. You are a smart person you know who “He” is referring to.

Genesis 16:12 "He will be as free and wild as an untamed donkey. He will fight with everyone, and everyone will fight with him. He will have conflicts with all his relatives."

hi arif-
you used the word tolerate, i used the word tolerance
so, actually,m you didnt use the word tolerance at all- to misuse it one way or the other

the complaints you had about the very word arent applicable to tolerance

the difference bewtween the words is toleration implies a superior position, authority or permission given-

tolerance does not contain these judgements

i dont have to accept something to agree it has a right to be expressed, or held by another as valuable

i, for instance, dont accept rigid literalist interpretations of any religious texts-

i do not accept them, make them my own, incorporate them into my own ideology-

i dont accept speaking in tongues-

i think it is actually a socially sanctioned insanity-
and delusional in the extreme
but i am patient (and tolerant) with people wo believe this

id say that your inabililty to accept my love of the Prophet(pbuh) and the value ive found in islam- is clouded by your own personal hatred- of same.

i dont even think it is that personal- but a sense of betrayal to the ideal youve experienced by some individuals who, if they were raised in america, would likely be the same kind of judgemental, off-center, imbalanced control freaks that you see in evangelical churches-

now ive certainly had my share of suffering at the hands of these kinds of people-

you have no idea-

but i dont hate them, or Jesus(ata) or christianity-
i realize how far they are from their own religion-

people look at america, and imagine that the bible, or christianity are some template for democracy, and freedom.

you can see some of the poor attmepts to correlate the 2 on these boards-

clearly, it never occurred to people to even question this, as they assumed it was inherent in christianity.

it is not , at all.
even in christianity, there was no call for the people of the nations to be a part of it- that is all inventions of paul-

Jesus(ata) himslef was very clear when asked about taking his message to th people of the nations (gentiles)

he said it was not for them, but he came ONLY for the lost sheep of the house of israel.

and if you think being one of the chosen people is an open club, and accepting of others, inclusive of others, democratic in any way-

i recommend you go to a synagogue and express an interest in judaism and a desire to convert, and see how readily you are "accepted".

as you progress don that road, you will realize at some point, that your conversion will not be really accepted
you my find a reform temple that is open and liberal-
but you will discover that your conversion is not accepted by all, everyhwere.

the same with christianity- if youre not trinitarian- (like jehovahs witnesses, mormons)
you will not be accpeted.
even if you ARE trinitarian, if youre a catholic, you will not be accepted by protestants.

as you may have noticed if you paid attention- the only verses anyone could find were the same ones from paul-

and applied specifically and ONLY to baptized christians-

hardly a template for equality-

and there is NOWHERE in the gospels, no where that Jesus(ata) states ANYWHERE anthing close to egalitariansim.

he even forbad what was allowed previously.

i have a cousin who is a beautiful intelligent woman- shes been a private secretary to richard mellon and an efficient accomplished woman.

she married the boy down the street who was her first boyfriend (if you can call it that- chaperoned boy friend)

hes been a bellboy at a hotel for 20 years, comes home, drinks beer all night and grunts a bit before passing out-

its not that hes a bad man, hes not- he just has the intelligence of a bag of hammers, and shes quite bright.

but theyre catholic, and simply dont get divorced.

despite the act that she cant sit in the same room as him, he knows she doesnt love him (actually cant stand his presence)

and shes a good and kind lady- but you cant hide these things forever-

but jesus(ata) said you cannot divorce,
so theyre yoked together unhappily until death claims one of them.

this isnt something you can argue around or away-
the only way to get around it is to actively and deliberately disobey the words of Jesus(ata)

on the other hand, in islam, when i encounter something that is counterintuitive- just doesnt make any sense-

i can research, and find out the core and reality of it- so far i have not been disappointed.

perhaps youve noticed that i never have anything negative to say about Jesus(ata), or Moses, or Krishna, or Buddha-
or their adherents or religions that sprang up after them-

i just found those philosophies insufficient for living in a social world-

believe me- if i met your uncle, he and i would have some disconnect-
but its possible hed never know it-

no one has ever changed their way of thinking by having their beliefs attacked-
that is my philosophy-

people only get defensive when theyre attacked (which is understandable) and cling more tightly to their ideas-

i didnt become muslim because i was pressured, or even knew any muslims-

it was the text itself, pure and unadluterated by the influences of peoples cultural additions that drew me-

people are as equal as the teeth of the comb-

that is antithetic in christiaity, where men are the head of women, and women have no rights at all before god and society- theyre the harbringers of sin to the world, and focus of the entrance of satan-
theyre the blamed victims that made us born in original disgrace-

well, ive gone on long enough-

o yes, all ive ever used was the gregorian calendar- so happy new year to you and yours too.
peace

i realize i didnt present the reasons i admire and rever Muhammad(pbuh) here
there is time

Victoria,
You say:
“please try and refrain from inserting such unecessary (and by association) derogatory comparisons-“

How do you suppose I can compare Mohammed? The acts that I have read about him in the hadith and what you choose to read make us see different men. I asked you, where do you get your references from that paint Mohammed as a saint? I can go to the same sources and see for myself. However the sources that I read about Mohammed and I showed you, there I see Mohammed as one worse than Hitler. It may be insulting to you but equally insulting to me is that you can revere such a person while I loath him.

Why did you cut and paste so much to explain the word tolerance to me? Did I not use it correctly in my sentence? Do you not see the difference between tolerance and acceptance?
Isn't it better for humans to accept than tolerate? Are you going to explain the etymology of acceptance to me now?

I hope you are aware that I do know and speak more than one language (not dialects) and English does not make the list. English to me is a technical language in this modern world.

Happy New Year, I know Muslims don't celebrate this Gregorian New Year but all the same I hope I am not insulting you by wishing you a happy and prosperous new year. If so I’ll take it back!

Arif

please try and refrain from inserting such unecessary (and by association) derogatory comparisons-

"Even Hitler may have said many good things but that does not make him a saint."

how can we have anything approaching a civil dialogue, if you preface it by implying a similarity between islam and hitler?

YOU SAID-
``````````````````````````
""one of my favorite made up sayings is the only thing i am truly intolerant of is intolerance"
I personally don't like the word tolerate, tolerating itself implies superiority of the tollerat(or).

well- im not thrilled with the word tolerate either-

which is why i didnt use it-

however, as you can see in definition number 2-
in the context of religion- it connotes respect and recognition - good things-

verb
1. put up with something or somebody unpleasant; "I cannot bear his constant criticism"; "The new secretary had to endure a lot of unprofessional remarks"; "he learned to tolerate the heat"; "She stuck out two years in a miserable marriage"
2. recognize and respect (rights and beliefs of others); "We must tolerate the religions of others"
3. medical term deleted
4. allow the presence of or allow (an activity) without opposing or prohibiting; "We don't allow dogs here"; "Children are not permitted beyond this point"; "We cannot tolerate smoking in the hospital" [syn: allow]

yes, one has to be in a position of authority or superiority to give permission-

here is the word i used-

tol·er·ance

–noun 1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.
2. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.
3. interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one's own; a LIBERAL UNDOGMATIC viewpoint.

and finally, ill let the dictionary itself define the subtleties and distinctions

—Synonyms 1, 2. patience, sufferance, forbearance; LIBERALITY, IMPARTIALITY, OPEN-MINDEDNESS.
Tolerance, toleration agree in allowing the right of something that one does not approve.

Tolerance SUGGESTS A LIBERAL SPIRIT spirit toward the views and actions of others: tolerance toward religious minorities.

Toleration implies the allowance or SUFFERANCE OF CONDUCT with which one is not in accord: toleration of graft.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

so, it remains one of my favorite original sayings.
peace

o- i have to go find that source of quote-
ill let you know- my husband is looking at me with eyes of hunger (tummy)

Victoria;
What sources do you get your quotes from, do you get them from the following sources besides the Koran? the Sahih Hadith(Bukhari, Muslim, Sunan Ab Dawud) the Sira(Ibn Ishaq, Tabari, Ibn Sa'd)? Please let us know; also when you quote something that Moahammed said please do provide the source. That way we the readers can know the source you quote from. Mohammed said a lot of nasty things I can quote from the sources I have mentioned above. Even Hitler may have said many good things but that does not make him a saint.
Also what you say here...
"one of my favorite made up sayings is the only thing i am truly intolerant of is intolerance"
I personally don't like the word tolerate, tolerating itself implies superiority of the tollerat(or).
One of my favorite leaders (a Muslim lady) was killed by your "other" Muslim friends. One band of Muslims claiming superiority to the other. How sad it is that after 1400 years Islam still cannot define itself.

I unequivocally and unconditionally condemn and revile these acts of terrorism and all acts of terrorsim done by deluded and vicious barbarians who claim they represent islam.

Council on American-Islamic Relations statement-

The “Not in the Name of Islam” petition states:

“We, the undersigned Muslims, wish to state clearly that those who commit acts of terror, murder and cruelty in the name of Islam are not only destroying innocent lives, but are also betraying the values of the faith they claim to represent. No injustice done to Muslims can ever justify the massacre of innocent people, and no act of terror will ever serve the cause of Islam. We repudiate and dissociate ourselves from any Muslim group or individual who commits such brutal and un-Islamic acts. We refuse to allow our faith to be held hostage by the criminal actions of a tiny minority acting outside the teachings of both the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.”

Do you know what our Prophet, peace be upon him, told us? He repeated thrice, "He does not believe! He does not believe! He does not believe!" Who was he referring to? "That person whose neighbour does not feel safe from his evil."

As it states in the Quran: ‘Oh you who believe, stand up firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even if it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be against rich or poor; for God can best protect both. Do not follow any passion, lest you not be just. And if you distort or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that you do.’” (Quran 4:135)

The day a "moderate" muslim turns in another muslim for building an bomb in their basement to put on a bus is the day I will believe that moderate muslims are not the enemy of America and the non-islamic world. Their silence in the face of the radicals who serve as the public face of their religion implies tacit approval. Come on, you want us to believe Islam is peaceful? How can we when the leaders of your religion preach hate and the conversion or death of all who don't submit to your mythical god?

well thank you (mostly)

one interesting, and i find somewhat unusual now fact is that i didnt know any muslims when i became one-

it occurred to me when i was reading the bible- i read the quran on my own- then bukhari and muslim hadeeths (about 6 big books)
before i ever encountered a muslim in real life

i really went into deep culture shock when i went to the mosque and started interacting with muslims (some)
(and it was a university mosque, and much more intellectually curious than most)

i just had the doctrine itself to draw on- and came without any cultural or traditional corruptions and their biases-

my mind was completely open, and only affected by---ideas- not people.

now, i had the great blessing of having access to one of the great minds of islam- dr amir ali, for 5 years i lived 3 blocks away from his education center next door to the muslim community center in chicago.

he was from karachi- married to an american woman for 50 years- and had straddled the wide divide between east and west quite comfortable, and without conflict in is soul.

ive been to mosques all over america, and in a way- i can understand your hatred of the islam you grew up with-

i also dislike intensely the misogynist, elitist and basically racist form of islam practiced by small tribal minds-
but theyre ignorant fools, without any real knowledge of their own religion-

sadly and blindly following the ways of their fathers (something specifically prohibited in the qu'ran, as a matter of fact, the qu'ran prohibits this- then exhorts muslims to read the quran themselves and come to their own conclusion)

trust me arif-
if id have been raised in your homleand- id have had to have completely rejected that bizarre bastardized, crystallized conceptualiztion of islam to come back and rediscover it in its pure state.

having been raised by a brilliant agnostic woman- my spiritual path has been completely of my own self determination- coupled with great inellectual scrutiny.

so i cant really say ive been "sold" anything.

but thanks for the intitial kind words- (ill choose to ignore the implication of weak-mindedness that followed)

i always say id have been stoned in the town square if i were born in some village somewhere

even when i entered elementary school- i was outraged at unfairness and injustice, and boycotted the other kids until they would allow the poor girl who smelled funny, had rotten teeth and poor clothes and unbrushed hair to play with us. (i even helped spread lice to the whole class because i let her play with my long hair every day as she sat behind me)

one of my favorite made up sayings is the only thing i am truly intolerant of is intolerance.

i wouldnt have fared well in the east at all

"really, there is no need to be insulting to one who has treated you with gentility and repsect."

You have and you are sincere and I know that. But you cannot imagine how I hate Islam to even think that a person can get sold on this hook line and sinker. I still respect you and even getting to like you even though you are a Muslim.

Arif

well arif, i wssnt an outsider but an avid bible student for more than 20 years-

so i dont have the luxury of just picking one sentence out and forcing it to fit apreconceived point i want to make-
i had to take the whole body in its context-
i noticed you said , lets look at
romans- but conveniently neglected to actually present it-

there is no where in those 3 verses that points to equality for all-
they are written for baptized christians and apply only to baptized christians-

ive never met eboo patel- and have my own reasoning processes which exptend over my life-

really, there is no need to be insulting to one who has treated you with gentility and repsect.

Ibrahim Mahfouz you asked me the following questions;
"Arif:
I read a post by Victoria where she challenged you to come with a quote in the Bible about equality. I thought I had answered that challenge in a different post i.e."America's Real Power". I don't know if you had answered her yet but I offer my quotes.
1. For equality among races;Romans 10:12 and Colossians 3:11
2.For equality of classes: Galatians3:8 and Colossians 3:11
3. For equality among genders:Galatians 3:28, 1Corinthians 11:11."

I did not bother because I know it would fall on deaf ears. Blind faith is a dangerous thing and to have blind faith in a false premise is even worse. Here we have a nice lady who was lied to by a conniving muslim like Eboo and has since never taken the time to question what lies she was once fed. She continues to build this iron wall around her one where reason will not penetrate. The quotes you show me are wonderful quotes.

Lets look at Romans 10:12 for example what wonderful and inviting words, If I were an outsider (and I am) and was listening to Romans 10:12 I really would stop and listen.
Now lets take this one from Gabriel’s buddy; O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.
Now why would I care to listen to the second one? I would however if I were forced to, or if my tribe was massacred and village destroyed I would not only listen but also believe!!!
What drives people to call Sura 9:29 and others like it divine? There are those who believe that a Creator could say such words to his creation and those who preach it. I question the motives of those who teach such nonsense.

People who believe in words like these;
"in islam, the qu'ran states that before the judgement day- at some point in the unknown future, all people will be muslim."

and there are a billion of them, it is really a cause for alarm and concern. I would never ever want myself, my wife and children to ever have to submit to Islam. Not to a book like the Koran and not at all from a man who killed, raped, married a child, coveted his sons wife, coveted others wives, had slaves, had sex with slaves, fought wars, and above all else stole and worsened the Jewish/Christian faith. Mohammed bought nothing new to the world only misery and evil.

...more hate...
"abraham, adam Jesus(ata) Mary(may ALLAH bless her) all the prophets, are all muslim, all in submission to god-"

How do people have the audacity to say such things? Adam, Abraham, Jesus, Mary etc. were NEVER Muslims, they were Jews, they remain Jews they will always be Jews. Jesus was a reformer and he challenged his followers to think. Mohammed looted and above all else was a narcissist.

The problems blind faith brings with it...
"Muhammad(pbuh) gave us direction, and a practical way to please the god- to worship, to live in peace- not war- to determine our lives in a clean and uncoprrupted way-"

By fasting? pointing in a direction and praying five times a day? by performing Hajj? he never did this. How does a man who fought 60+ offensive wars tell his followers to live in peace?

In a few days Christians will be celebrating Christmas, they will celebrate life. They will celebrate light, Christians will celebrate the coming of their savior.

Just recently the Muslims celebrated DEATH! they killed/beheaded several million animals with their own hands and offered them to their god allah, like the savages of old. I hope we never ever have to submit to this religion that celebrates death with such joy.

MERRY CHRISTMAS CHRISTIANS!!!

*Abraham,adam Jesus(ata)Mary(may Allah bless her)all the prophets,are all muslims*
Yes,you are right.In that case,we should say *muslim* to Jew and *muslim* to christian.
Yes,in that case,all christians and Jews are muslims.

Dear sane posters,please stop the 5 years old child kidding.Please,stop this funny logic.

We should describe the concepts correctly.Muslim means submission to Allah,not God.*Adam Jesus(ata)* is an insult to Jesus.At first,you insult to Jesus and after you say *islam respects Jesus*.What is the islamic tenet about Trinity,Bible,Second Coming,Son of God.
Which *cotton princess* tale are telling ??
*No compulsion in islam*.Please,listen to your conscience voice when you write this.

i was answering a question by mr mahfouz-
who was attempting to answer a question i postulated.

mr mahfouz- no theologian ever interpreted it the way you are-
you can find piles and piles of books saying the opposite-
it is for christians- and the rest of unbaptized humanity is excluded-
id really like to see you go into a baptist church and try and say that-

and NOWHERE are women considered equal!
women are considered less in the bible-
they cannot speak, and MUST NOT be allowed to teach!!!!!

i didnt write the book-

mr mahfouz- where in your education did you learn that women are half of men?
this is mr mahfouz's particular rant-
weve already had this conversation- which, when he couldnt answer the questions- degenrated into predictable slander and rants against islam-

you already failed this argument on another page-
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2007/12/americas_real_power/all_comments.html

dec-8 12:06pm

actually the question you failed to answere there was , proving with scripture, the equality of women in the bible-
you never did find any scripture-

so, lets get back on topic-

k- im definitely not attmepting to show how bad another religion is-

degrading another adds nothing to my own enlightenment- it only degrades me.

so- back on topic- ive answered mr mahfouz- and we can keep on topic-

well,
i dont adhere to the personal philosophy of ahmadenijad- i am not really very versed in his ideology- im not shi'a

hajj is not a precursor to world domination-
it is a spiritual pilgrimage-

if ahmadenijad wants to try and politicize everything he comes in contact with-

that doesnt reflect on me, or islam or the mission of the Prophet(pbuh)

in islam, the qu'ran states that before the judgement day- at some point in the unknown future, all people will be muslim.

muslim means submission to the god-
abraham, adam Jesus(ata) Mary(may ALLAH bless her) all the prophets, are all muslim, all in submission to god-
by that token, all of creation is subject to the direction of ALLAH and in submission!

Muhammad(pbuh) gave us direction, and a practical way to please the god- to worship, to live in peace- not war- to determine our lives in a clean and uncoprrupted way-

ok, you dont want to do that?
fine-there is no compulsion in religion!

go your way, as the qu'ran instructs us wisely-
you to your beliefs, and me to mine.

not to argue- but let the god see into our respective hearts and decide who is serving him/her, and who is not.
there can be no coercion of the heart- no enforcement of the body to mouth words not believed-
no compulsion-

ahmadinejad doesnt seem to understand this well-
he wants to force things- to suit his own construction-
maybe he believes HE is the mahdi?
maybe he has a messianic complex!

doesnt affect my prayers, actions or beliefs.

muslims are not the only ones who believe in a world that will become submitted to the god-
however- they are the ones who believe that it only comes from inner change- not outward, and everyone- is already in submission to the laws and will fo ALLAH_ whether they acknowledge it or not-
and - the metaphorical hand of the god cannot be forced!
for instance-
the zionists colonialists were all atheists-
they have tried to convince the world that israel belongs to them from a divine deed issued 6,000 years ago-
but religious jews know that they have to wait for the messiah to come to return from their diaspora.

just lke muslims know all will be arranged by ALLAH-
and to try and "force" the hand of the god- to use a personifying metaphor-
is unislamic- is against the will of the god-

just as the zionists are trying to force g-d's hand- and jump the gun by going ahead with teir own prsonal plans to regain judah-

only people with a very sporadic knowledge of scripture buy this story-
but that included mostly everyone.(and this is an important aspect- it is precisely this superfical knowledge which enables their agenda)

people doing what others tell them, not becuase they have read it, digested it, comprehended it themselves- but because they are too lazy to find out, and let others lead them.(and this is an important aspect- it is precisely this superfical knowledge which enables their agenda)

the bible doesnt say israel will be taken by the jewish people by political means- but by the will of god-(after the messiah comes and leads them there)

also- an amazing thing, is that once the city of the christian city of god is built- ALL NON-CHRISTANS WILL BE EITHER CONVERTED OR KILLED!!!!
revelations is pretty clear about this-

in jewish doctrine- their own city of g-d will mean the removal of all non-jews.

so i dont know what kind of uneasy alliance must exist between them, when they are looking at each other to accomplish an end(retaking of israel) while at the same time plotting to rid each other of each other when the end is accomplished-

but that is what it is.

now you mentioned a "small" mormon temple.
the temple of mormons in salt lake city is by no means small- and the ENTIRE city is overtaken by mormons in every aspect of living-

to enter mainstream society there and partake and beniefit from that society- one must be mormon.

and temples all over america are closed to the general public.

jerusalem has been taken over- it s the 3rd most revered site i islam-
but even the people who were born there cannot even enter the ENTIRE COUNTRY!

are you also petitioning as vigorously for the right of return of the millions of palestinians?

if your answer is no, then your mission seems somewhat dwarfed by your own reasoning.

if you can find some christian concepts in what ive said, id love to see them.

(maybe you can justify manifest destiny? the bible did!)

so, respect given is respect received- if you want to go to hajj- go-

but people ALSO have a right to worship unmolested by those with disruptive or even malicious intentions, don't they?

peace

Here we go again. We are talking about Islam and the muslim instead of addressing the questions asked will drag other religions to show how terrible they are. So what? What kind of an argument is that?

Ahmedinejad is saying that Hajj rituals support the main aim of Muhammad's message and that is of world domination. That is the Pan Islamic rule under one Calipha ... the command to Muhammad from Allah. That is what that Muslim is say what Hajj means.

Victoria:
Re; deja vu
"the text you offered is specifically and only applicable to the baptized Christian community in that historical period-". That is what you are saying.
Ok let us for the sake of argument grant that you are correct. That means Christian women and Christian men are equal. That is still better than the formula in your religion which in the best of cases equates a Muslim woman to half a Muslim man. If Christianity is exclusive, as you claim, let us see how it treats the women and men who are not Christians? Is there any indication that a predominantly Christian country has a discriminatory policy such as maybe levying higher taxes on its non-Christian citizens? Or maybe has a law that prohibits the building of houses of worship to non-Christians? Or maybe a law that requires non Christians to not ride a horse? Or carry a weapon? Or visit a certain part of the country? If yes, then it must be something that Jesus had ordered since you asserted to Arif that Christians consider the Bible the literal word of God and they follow it literally. (Argue about Deuteronomy with a Jewish Rabbi. Christians follow the teaching of Jesus). You seem to be fairly familiar with the Bible, can you find a quote attributed to Jesus that could be construed as exhorting those “baptized” to inflict damage or even ostracize those who are “not baptized”? If not then when Jesus said ……there is not male or female… He meant equality for ALL and not only to the baptized. That is HOW CHRISTIANS INTERPRET IT; that and not your interpretation, is what really counts. Otherwise Christians would have discriminatory laws as those above ones that the second Caliph, Omar, institutionalized when his armies pillaged the Near East and North Africa. Some of those laws are in effect till this day(2007). He evidently distilled those rules from the Quran and the sayings of his friend and son in law, the "Messenger of Allah".

deja vu mr mahfouz-
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/

COLOSSIANS 3:11

3:1. Therefore if you be risen with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.

3:2. Mind the things that are above, not the things that are upon the earth.

3:3. For you are dead: and your life is hid with Christ in God.

3:4. When Christ shall appear, who is your life, then you also shall appear with him in glory.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(V) pretty clearly specifically to christians- if that isnt clear enough-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3:5. Mortify therefore your members which are
upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness lust, evil concupiscence and covetousness, which is the service of idols.

3:6. For which things the wrath of God cometh upon the children of unbelief.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(V) i left these in for K

3:10. And putting on the new, him who is renewed unto knowledge, according to the image of him that created him.

3:11. Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. BUT CHRIST IS ALL AND IN ALL.
3:12. Put ye on therefore, as the ELECT of God, holy and beloved, the bowels of mercy, benignity, humility, modesty, patience:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(v) SO MUCH FOR THE REST OF HUMANITY

3:15. And let the peace of Christ rejoice in your hearts, wherein also you are called in one body: and be ye thankful.
3:17. All whatsoever you do in word or in work, do ALL IN THE NAME of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

3:22. Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh: not serving to the eye, as pleasing men: but in simplicity of heart, fearing God.

********************************************

ROMANS 10:12

10:4 For the end of the law is Christ: unto justice to everyone that believeth.

10:9. For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

save no man. St. Matt. 7.21.

10:10. For, with the heart, we believe unto justice: but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MATTHEW 7:21. Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

10:11. For the scripture saith: Whosoever BELIEVETH IN HIM shall not be confounded.

10:12. For there is no distinction of the Jew and the Greek: for the same is Lord over all, rich unto all that CALL UPON HIM.

10:13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
10:14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
***************************************
(V) once again, pretty clearly aundeniably applicable only to christians and believers in christ
************************************
GALATIANS 2:28

26. For you are all the children of God, by faith in Christ Jesus.

3:27. For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ.

3:28. There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For YOU are ALL ONE IN CHRIST Jesus.

3:29. And if you be Christ's, then are you the seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*******************************

so again, applicable specifically to those who are one in christ etc...etc...

DEFINITELY IN NO WAY APPLICABLE TO ALL OF MANKIND-

and if you are pauline (which i never really was) these may have value-
however- i always found a real disconnect with paul and his writings and the words of Jesus(ata) in the bible-

this is why its always important to keep things in context-
out of context things get so easily misunderstood-

peace- i hope everyone isnt too distracted by this-
back on topic?

how is what ahmadinejad said relevant to , well, anything K?

Arif:
I read a post by Victoria where she challenged you to come with a quote in the Bible about equality. I thought I had answered that challenge in a different post i.e."America's Real Power". I don't know if you had answered her yet but I offer my quotes.
1. For equality among races;Romans 10:12 and Colossians 3:11
2.For equality of classes: Galatians3:8 and Colossians 3:11
3. For equality among genders:Galatians 3:28, 1Corinthians 11:11.

http://www2.irna.com/en/news/view/line-20/0712207208004919.htm

Now of course the president of Iran would not know anything about Hajj and what it means.

"President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said here Wednesday on Al-Adha Eid Day in Saudi Arabia philosophy of Haj can be defined merely through considering Islam's aim at establishment of a global government.

President Ahmadinejad who had attended the gathering of Iranian Haj pilgrims at the Supreme Leader's Mecca Headquarter focused in his address over the significance of major Haj rituals, the philosophy behind them, and their ultimate objectives.

He said, "If we would delete the ultimate objective of establishing a global system from the Haj rituals, the remainder would be deeds devoid of a soul."

And the position of the kafirs in this global system is there for all to see in the 1400 years of Islamic history.

i think youve been missing the larger issues here k-

im sorry for personal affronts to your person or people you know wherever you come from-

the hajj is still the largest group of people representative of every hue and corner of the world to assemble peaceably and is a remarkable and beautiful expression of the diversity and inclusiveness of islam.

now you mentioned a "small" mormon temple.
the temple of mormons in salt lake city is by no means small- and the ENTIRE city is overtaken by mormons in every aspect of living-

to enter mainstream society there and partake and beniefit from that soicety- one must be mormon.

and temples all over america are closed to the general public.

jerusalem has been taken over- it s the 3rd most revered site i islam-
but even the people who were born there cannot even enter the ENTIRE COUNTRY!

are you also petitioning as vigorously for the right of return of the millions of palestinians?

if your answer is no, then your mission seems somewhat dwarfed by your own reasoning.

im not making any assumptions about you though- (despite your assumption about my islamo-christicism-whatever that is)

if you can find some christian concepts in what ive said, id love to see them.

possibly you are confusing my western upbringing, and its overlap into my philosophy(of which there is no incongruity) with christianity?

heres a mission for you- show me where equality of people exists in the bible-

it doesnt. at all. anywhere. i know. ive searched and searched.
actually- it is the opposite and very exclusivist in many ways

(maybe you can justify manifest destiny? the bible did!)

so, respect given is respect received- if you want to go to hajj- go-

but people ALSO have a right to worship unmolested by those with unclean intentions, don't they?

im not apologizing for the actions of other muslims, but am still standing by the right of muslims to perform hajj as a unified body in safety
peace, im sorry i wont be able to get bakc now for your response , but when i do ill certainly give it consideration.

Victoria,
You may believe whatever you want to, but it seems any evidence presented to you will not make you admit that Martin Luther Kings movement and the whole Hajj experience are absolutely NOT related.
One is bigoted and Muslim-centric (Hajj) while the other was an American movement centered toward equality and justice for ALL. Eboo simply lied when he made that claim; you fail to convince us otherwise. You have failed to tell us so far why a Non-Muslim is filthy in the eyes of Mohammed’s Allah and why only a Muslim can enter the Sacred Mosque. You fail to tell us why Mohammed’s Allah uses such ugly words in his instructions to mankind.

Since Mohammed snatched Makah it has been off limits and out of bounds for non-Muslims a place that once welcomed EVERYONE!

You continuously ask, "why would kafirs want to go to hajj?”

Well I would like to go there, I was there as a baby and now as a Kafir I want to see what drove my parents to take me there, however I would simply want to go there as a Kafir, a non-Muslim, a Najis;

I want it so everyone knows I am a Non-Muslim. I am willing to wear a yellow shirt to do that too. My question to you is this; since I am not interested in disruption and simply observation can this be possible?

You say;
"youre angry because people who are not muslims cannot partake in an islamic religious pilgrimage?"

Actually we know why non-Muslims/other humans are not allowed into Makah, it’s you will not admit that Mohammed and his side-kick Allah did not want it to be so. So far you haven’t done a good job.

Also Victoia, most of what you posted to me makes no sense, however to this ..."and both of you-
stop confusing the actions of people with the doctrine of the religion"
All along we are showing you that Muslim behavior is directly proportional to what Islam teaches. Other than presenting personal experiences and correlating them to Islamic scripture what else can one do to make you believe in this simple fact?

k- it doesnt say filthy-
it says unclean-
filthy is your own mischaracterization and overly dramatic statement-

"Your Allah curses his own creation, and considers the majority of his own creation FILTHY. That is not what any government action. That is straight from the Quran."

"YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are UNCLEAN; so let them not, after this YEAR OF THEIRS, approach the Sacred Mosque."

the year in question is the year after Muhammad(pbuh) came to Mecca to perform hajj, and made the treaty with the meccans to COME BACK THE NEXT YEAR.

unclean and filthy are 2 very different concepts

in hinduism, dalits (untouchables) are UNCLEAN

in judaism, the disbleievers approaching the holy of holies are UNCLEAN

in falun dafa (qi gong) ALL OF HUMANITY is covered in excrement and considered FILTHY compared to the supreme being

see the difference?

if you go to a native american sweat tent, your VERY THOUGHTS are regulated as clean and positive or unclean and negative- and unwelcome if they are unclean.

even the POPE when he went to syria and prayed in the mosque, and the new pope when he prayed in turkey- respected the beliefs of people in the place he was visiting.

so what exactly are you petitioning for?
do you want to go to hajj and say surreptitious non- muslim prayers?

how can you expect to be respected when you seem to have respect for anyone but muslims?

while you argue (and need to exaggerate to do so) abut the inequality of burial rights of non-muslims in mecca-(who but a muslim wants to be bureid in mecca? in islam, you are SUPPOSED to be buried where you die)

can you or i be buried in israel?

can ANY palestinians RETURN TO THEIR OWN HOMELAND WHILE THEY ARE ALIVE?

also, kafirs ALREADY KNOW ABOUT ISLAM-

so there is no need for you to inform them of anything-
if they dont kow about islam THEY ARE NOT KAFIRS.

a subtley, even though you claim to be one- that continues to escape you.

also, your mission is a very negative and sad one.

it adds nothing to anyone- edifys no one- and frankly- without anger catalyzing it- will wither.

as for the ismailis being biased against-
bias and prejudice in any aspect is always dysfunctional and anti-human.

the worldwide conference of muslims containing over 500 scholars from every school of islam - has defined ismailis as being part of the ummah of islam.

i invite you to modernize your vision of islam with the rest of the world-

http://ammanmessage.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97

you have to navigate through it on your own- there is much that will likely surprise and encourage you

peace

Hey Ross,
That first hand account of women getting stoned to death is really sickening. I almost threw up in disgust. I knew about the barbarity of Islam before but this is anything beyond even my imagination. These animals are sick ( I am sorry if I insulted any animals here). They will kill us all.

Problem with Islam is not only discrimination against non-Muslims to live in their 50 plus exclusive Islamic nations or visit the holy sites, but the daily, senseless mass murders of innocent lives

Victoria,

It is you who are being blind to what I have shown you. Your Allah curses his own creation, and considers the majority of his own creation filthy. That is not what any government action. That is straight from the Quran. That is the reason why Kafirs are not allowed to enter two entire cities and not only a small temple of Mormons. That is the reason why Ayatolla Sistani refused to meet with the filthy kafirs. It is the reason why filthy kafirs are not allowed to say their prayers in the Hijaz. The bigotry and the supremacist attitude is built into the very doctrines of Allah's message and that is what you are desperately trying to deny.

You confuse anger with resolve. I am determined to educate the Kafirs about Islam and show them the facts that the lies of the Allah's followers hide from them. You example of skin heads and KKK are spurious. No one but no one bans the KKK from an entire city. It is not only Hajj is it? Kafirs are not banned only during the period of Hajj, but year around all the time. Why? What does being in the city of Mecca 6 months away from Hajj have anything to do with Hajj? Why cannot the kafirs not be buried in Saudi Arabia. Millions of Kafirs work there but they cannot say their prayers? And you are trying to justify this blatant bigotry? Is that a surprise to me? No, for I know what following Allah does to the human brain.

again k, you are mixing actions of governments with doctrine of islam-

so would you also support the kkks right to go to AME churches and disrupt them?
or skinheads to show up at the wailing wall?

youre angry because people who are not muslims cannot partake in an islamic religious pilgrimage?

should i lobby mormons to allow me into their sanctuaries?

there are many injustices in the world-
right now im watching protestors in louisiana being tasered and pepper sprayed because they want housing.

we have rendition, cia tapes being destroyed on torture, the ballon lending industry crumbling-

our own kids being shipped off to the ME-

there are amny issues to be outraged about

so why is it important to you that non-muslims go to hajj?

and why do you want such 'freedoms'?

saudi arabia is a kingdom-
if you really know your qu'ran (ive seen no evidence yet)
you also know that no government headed by a king is without corruption

i think you dont really care about non-muslims going to hajj-
(why in the world wuld they WANT to?)
but youre venting your own angers for your own issues

your entire deconstruction of islam is that non-muslims cant go to hajj?

if you get to some doctrine of substance- go for it-

but all youve come up with is critiques of actions of people
you cannot make the distinction between doctrinal advocacy and corrupt action?

i have great doubt as to your claims of being an ex-muslim as you didnt even know what a kafir is.

well, no actually it didnt answer the question-
again, why would kafirs want to go to hajj?

"It is reflected in how kafirs are treated for Hajj. The Kafirs here need to understand that and that is why I bring it up."

Victoria,

I thought I had answered and I did not think the questions you ask need to be answered. It says more that you are asking them so here are the answers.

Does one have to be black to object to discrimination against blacks?

Does one have to be jewish to object to Nazi carting off the jews?

Does one have to be a woman to object to predatory sexual behavior?

Your Allah clearly finds most of his own creation filth and he says so. His followers clearly take that injunction to heart and discriminate against most of humanity. If they were really in power around the world these actions would translate to a lot more misery for those who do not follow your Allah. The treatment of the kafirs in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Saudia Arabia, Sudan, Nigeria, etc. etc. are documented and can be read by anyone. The discrimination is not peculiar to those countries. It is reflected in how kafirs are treated for Hajj. The Kafirs here need to understand that and that is why I bring it up.

I have been hadj twice in my life. I can still go to hadj if I choose to do so.

I hope that answers your questions.

Ismael(ismaili comes from Ismael) was the eldest son of Cafer Sadek and Ismael was a *wine drinker*.The most famous ismaili was Aga Khan.His dad was Aly Khan who was a MI5 agent.

Hassan Sabbah(1034-1124)The ismaili commander of hashshas smoker thugs at Alamut castle.They were also called *assassins*.English word *assassinate* comes from *assassin*.Alamut had been taken by the great commander Genghis Khan.

saying the ban is mentioned is NOT saying it is the reason for the ban-
as it is not-

back to my question k-

why is it upsetting to you that non-muslims cannot visit the holiest sites of muslims?

do you have some desire to go there, and why?

im not going to visit a mormon temple and complain that im not allowed in.
im not interested in going in, to be honest.

there are many places on the planet that are closed to non-believers-
i cant go to jerusalem and go to the wall- i would be stopped-
but i dont want to go there so, its a non-issue for me.

if you dont like islam, and muslims- why would you want to go there?
and if you dont want to go there, why would you complain about it?

do you want the right to go there to incite problems? criticize? inflame? disrupt?

and why should such a right or intention be valid anyway?

its not- people have a right to protect themselves and provide a safe atmosphere when they are in prayer and vulnerable.

im not going to go into a hindu temple(and ive been to many) and start insulting people-
ive gone with respect, reverence and a desire to learn and grow and understand my fellow humans-

clearly, you wouldnt want to go to worship-which is the only reason for going to hajj-

Hey Eboo, why haven't you told us about this? IS there something else you have not told us?

From Amil Imani website regarding moderate muslims vs jihadists:

Humanity has suffered horrific wars in the past. Yet, the present multi-form and multi-front war waged by Islamists has the potential of inflicting more suffering and destroying more lives than ever before. Ruthless Islamic forces are advancing rapidly in their conquests while those of freedom are acquiescing and retreating. Before long, Islamism is poised to achieve its Allah-mandated goal of cleansing the earth of all non-Muslims. Any and all means and weapons are to be enlisted in the service of this final holy war that aims to establish the Islamic Ummeh.
Is “Moderate Islam” an illusion? Moderate Islam is a wedge that will jam open the door to Jihad, and "evil will triumph when good Muslims do nothing." The great majority of Muslims are not adherents of the radical line. Yet, because the Islamists wage their war under the name of Islam, they receive immense direct and indirect support from the rank-and-file ordinary Muslims. It is this support of moderate Muslims that keeps the Jihadists alive. And it is the Jihadists who intend to show no mercy to any and all who do not share their theology, be they Muslims or not.

For the record, all Muslims, moderates, radicals, Shiite, Sunnis and other sects and sub-sects of Islam are in unanimous agreement that the Quran is the word of “Allah.” All Muslims are also in agreement that “Allah” spoke through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad. Allah declares, “The book is not to be doubted."

To be a loyal and faithful Muslim, one must adhere to and perform many rituals, as specified in the Quran by Allah and the Hadiths/Sunna, every waking moment of his entire life. Disobeying these rituals does not make one a moderate Muslim, but rather it would make him a non-Muslim, facing an uncertain future.

[They who deny the Quran]: "They have incurred Allah's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits the unbelievers..." Quran 2:89

“If you doubt what We have revealed to Our servant, produce one chapter comparable to it. Call upon your idols to assist you, if what you say be true. But if you fail (as you are sure to fail) then guard yourselves against the Fire whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the unbelievers. Quran 2:23-5

“Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.” Quran 9:73

"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. But do not grieve for the unbelievers" Quran (5:69).

The jihadists have searched the scripture and have selectively chosen those statements and precedents that they could use to legitimize their violent and primitive agenda. The Jihadists, for instance, claim that the Quran itself urges them to make jihad, “jahedoo fee sabeil-u-llah,” (make jihad for the cause of Allah.) The word “jihad” has at least two vastly different meanings. It means exertion. It also stands for making war, and it is the latter that the jihadists invoke as their mandate.

While the so-called moderate Muslims are generally silent, either out of fear, lack of organization, or apathy, the Islamists work around the clock and around the world to further their agenda. Hardly a week passes without a Grand Mufti or an Ayatollah issuing pronouncements in support of radical Islam. The rank-and-file Islamist clergy, for their part, transmit these fatwas and edicts to their flocks in mosques and hammer them into the minds of impressionable children in madressehs. Through this grassroots process, radical Islam is recruiting greater and greater numbers of adherents. On the one hand, the Islamists engage in acts of violence to disrupt the functioning of societies, while on the other they cleverly exploit the freedom they enjoy in non-Islamic lands to subvert them from within.

Issuing death threats and finishing the job are part of the modus operandi of the Islamists who disagree with them. It is not surprising that Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Verses" received a fatwa because it appeared to mock Muhammad.

The Iranian historian, Ahmad Kasravi, on March 11, 1946, while being tried on charges of "slander against Islam," was shot to death along with one of his asssitants in open court in Tehran by followers of Navvab Safavi, a Shi'a extremist cleric who had founded a terrorist organization called the Fadayan-e Islam (literally Devotees of Islam).

The Egyptian novelist Naguib Mahfouz was stabbed because one of his books was thought to be sacrilegious. And when the Arab scholar Suliman Bashear argued that Islam developed as a religion gradually rather than emerging fully formed from the mouth of the Prophet, he was injured after being thrown from a second- story window by his students at the University of Nablus in the West Bank. Even many broad-minded liberal Muslims become upset when the historical veracity and authenticity of the Quran is questioned.

Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh was killed November 2, 2004, by a 26-year-old extremist Muslim of Dutch-Moroccan descent for creating a 10-minute movie Submission. The movie deals with the topic of violence against women in Islamic societies. The voices of the moderate Muslims have again been effectively silenced.

When Anwar-as-Sadat signed the peace agreement with Israel in 1979; four assassins from the Muslim Brotherhood assassinated him in September, 1981.

"Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope."—Muslim Brotherhood

“During the Muslim Brothers' seventy-plus years of existence, there have been cycles of growth, followed by divisions into factions, including clandestine financial networks, and violent jihad groups, such as al-Jihad and al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya in Egypt, HAMAS in Palestine and mujahideen and Al-Qaida groups in Afghanistan.”

The mainstream American media continues to indulge in the fantasy that “radical Islam” can be reformed by everybody realizing that we are at war with this minority of devils. They are Islam revisionists because they think all the “bad stuff” in the Quran was inserted there after Muhammad’s death. Naturally, they are vague on this point, as to precisely which suras were ex-post.

Presently, fanatical Islam is lashing out with mad fury before its own final demise. The “infidel” world has been complicit in the surge of Islamism through its mistakes, complacency, and greed.

Unfortunately, even some Islam-realists fall short. When they are put in front of the camera, they refuse to acknowledge that it is Islam that is the source of evil, so they resort to a redundant phrase of how “moderates” can reclaim the faith. The whole thing is truly bizarre. I have yet to hear, whenever a moderate Muslim is asked about the true nature of Islam, ‘Hold on here! I do not agree with your revisionist thinking. I am an Islam-realist. We believe Islam is in and of itself a religion of evil, and I declare it, not from the view of a particular religious dogma, but from a humanistic and common sense definition of morality, not because of what some belief was inserted into the Quran but because of:

1_What Muhammad said that remains unabrogated.
2_What Muhammad did (and said while he was doing it).
3_What Muhammad did not say or command or support that is good.
4_ What Muslim consensus has been for every century afterwards.
5_What the governing code of Muslim terrorists is today.’

Islam is, therefore, in total, universally, and innately evil.
It actively encourages some of the most debased, inhumane treatment of people known to man, regardless of which dogma you compare it to (religious or secular).

While I desire freedom in Iran, I am a committed anti-Islamist and anti-communist in general. My beliefs have matured over the years. I now think that God has a set of values that are absolutely right and good, rebellion against which is wrong (sinful), and about which the commitment to deceive others is evil, as is the commitment to deny the existence of anything absolutely good or bad.

I believe communism is an expression of materialist naturalist philosophy that is atheistic, representing a desire by man to dominate both nature and man. To me, it is Satan’s “denial” play...that there is no God. But Satan works in multiple theaters simultaneously. I believe Islam is Satan’s chief “deception” play. Rather than deny God exists, it asserts that God does in fact exist, but that God does not desire that men worship out of love or free will, but through rote, fear, and guilt, and through the sins of pride, envy, and chauvinism.

It is a mentality of enslavement that drives Islam...”submission” in which man subdues other men in order to establish a kingdom of oppression and hatred on earth. Both atheism/materialism and Islam appear as contradictions with respect to each other, but when you peel away the veneer of their pretense, you see that their aims are the same. Fascism is fascism.

Dr. M. Zuhdi Jasser, a former U.S. Navy Lieutenant Commander and an American devout Muslim wrote in an article (Islamism, not Islam is the Problem): “Most should understand that strategically, identifying ‘Islam as the problem,’ immediately alienates upwards of one quarter of the world’s population and dismisses our most powerful weapon against the militant Islamists—the mantle of religion and the pulpit of moderate Muslims who can retake our faith from the Islamists.”

Well, of course it does. Shaming the devil incites the devil, calling the USSR an “evil empire” did not win Ronald Reagan points for diplomacy, but nonetheless, it was an evil empire. Calling Nazis evil did not help endear the Germans to the Americans either, but they were slaughtering the Poles down to the last child. This is not a reason to be restrained in advocating the removal of evil.

This is also why liberal appeasers in 1938, who refused to call Hitler “evil,” got the world into so much trouble by creating a similar confused intellectual forum about the Nazis. They tried to build bridges to the “moderate” Nazis; they lectured clear thinkers about the dangers of inciting German hatred by pointing out the truth. They accused conservatives of being “just as fascist” as the Nazis; they sent ambassadors and made treaties and trusted that the moderates would come out and “reform” their zealous leadership. And they were wrong.

Dr. Jasser: “The process of theological renewal and interpretation in the light of modern day thought—ijtihad—as it is known in Islam is in many ways hundreds of years behind Western enlightenment today arrested around the 15th century. This process can either be facilitated by non-Muslims or hindered by the belief that it is impossible.”

This author betrays any knowledge of western enlightenment and its causes. He also presupposes a process of change that simply does not exist in the scripture of Islam, as defined in the Qur’anic codex. In short, he’s making this all up. Islam is a fully hardened religion because that is how Muhammad configured it. You can’t build an empire from slaughter and violence by making your ethics variable. Would you now have us believe you think Muhammad was a fool?

Dr. Jasser: “the majority voices in the middle, the non-Islamist and anti-Islamist Muslims, who understand the problem, have to be on the frontlines. They cannot be on the frontlines in an ideological battle being waged that demonizes the morality of the faith of Islam and its founder, the Prophet Mohammed.”

Opponents of Islamism demonize Islam with Muhammad’s own words and deeds. You cannot be a serial murderer and complain that it is unfair for the DA to constantly harp about all those people you killed!

He continues: “We cannot win this war only on the battlefield.”

Yes, but tell that to the Viennese who in 1632 defeated the marauding Muslims to save Christian Europe from slaughter and annihilation. Explain that to the Sudanese Christians of 2007. How about the Coptic Christians in Egypt? Does anyone know where all the Christians and Hindus in Pakistan went? Ask the French and Spanish how Charlemagne and Castile unceremoniously removed the Moors from Spain and France. And what happened in 1948, the day Israel was legally declared a nation? Oh, the battlefield is an ugly place, but it seems to have been the only way militant Islam has been repulsed. Most loving Christians believe that “love conquers all.” Well, I have news for you too, love does not conquer Islam.

Dr. Jasser: “In debate, it can become easy to lose the focus of the argument when resorting to criticism based on identity rather than on ideology. For example, so many Islamists locally and nationally resort to attempting to demonize me as an individual rather than deal with my anti-Islamist ideas as a