well thats an interesting concept arif-

why dont you show me where i have advocated or proposed christian ideals or theology?

Victoria,
"absolutely false arif-"

Not true Victoria, this is where you go wrong, Christ's teaching was very different from Mohammed’s, and Christ challenged his followers to "think". His words have always been stories or parables where he challenges his listeners to think and challenge their traditional way of thinking. This is absolutely different from what Mohammed preached, Mohammed came up with nothing new, and he in fact bore down the literal meaning of what the Jews had already written. Mohammed was illiterate and much like one he took the literal meaning of Jewish scripture therefore we have what you see today. Your problem with Mr. Mahfouz is that you are challenging him for what is written over what is implemented. You fail to see the difference which is very obvious in your posts to him. You have lost your sense of reasoning and rationality after following the literal teachings of Islam, don't blame yourself for this blame Islam, followers of Islam loose the flavor of freedom of thought or the freedom to expand their horizons.
Step back sometime and see your posts/replies to Mr. Mahfouz and see how you sound for yourself. Islam is NOT a spiritual experience but simply a rule based dogmatic experience, one where you "submit" your brain to Mohammed and what he preached.

"anecdotes, and asking why do people do this? can be answered with a variety of answers, not all pertinent to religion"

You are avoiding the issues by saying this, you are afraid of facing what Islam does to its believers; Why do Muslims act the way they do?
You and this other women Mss. Mischka are practicing ChristoIslam something converts and those who don't want to see the flaws of Islam but still want to believe in it. This is because you have all your eggs in one and only one basket.

Arif

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

I reiterate:

Apparently you are finding the flaws in Islam. Besides tearing down a few curtains, what else have you done to eliminate the warmongering, anti-female passages in the koran? Until this is done, the famous quote, "Until the koran is "DEFLAWED", no one is safe" says it all.

also mr mahfouz- christians used the bible to support slavery and manifest destiny-

if you can prove a positive-
go ahead- otherwise i have to decline furhter torment for myself to see insulting remarks abut my religion
sorry- i have to pass on this

your points lack perspective,and are framed to overly vilify muslims while enhancing the christians.

the late scholar edward said referred to this as 'positional superiority.

define the other and you define the self.
if they are backward, we are enlightened. if they lack civility, we are civilized, but to achieve this, "framing" is necessary.

since all of your arguments are trending towards degradation of muslims, it still does not necessarily prove the superiority of christians.

here are the verses again

GALATIANS
27 For all of YOU WHO WERE BAPTIZED into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS.
29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendant, heirs according to the promise

see?
it says the ones who are neither jew nor greek etc... are all one in christ jesus-

not all one in humanity

its pretty clearly speaking to the specific group of baptized christians there-

if it meant all of humanity- it would say so

its pretty specific mt mahfouz

anyway- if your purpose is to find some excuse to slander islam- dont use me for it-

you dont have scripture?
ok- no problem
no need to try and elevate your own position by demonizing another

i wish you success with your research

Victoria:
"the text you offered is specifically and only applicable to the baptized christian community in that historical period-". That is what you said.
Ok let us for the sake of argument grant that you are correct. That means Christian women and Christian men are equal. That is still better than the formula in your religion which in the best of cases equates a Muslim woman to half a Muslim man. If Christianity is exclusive, as you claim, let us see how it treats the women and men who are not Christians? Is there any indication that a predominantly Christian country has a discriminatory policy such as maybe levying higher taxes on its non-Christian citizens? Or maybe has a law that prohibits the building of houses of worship to non-Christians? Or maybe a law that requires non Christians to not ride a horse? Or carry a weapon? Or visit a certain part of the country? If yes, then it must be something that Jesus had ordered since you asserted to Arif that Christians consider the Bible the literal word of God and they follow it literally. (Argue about Deuteronomy with a Jewish Rabbi. Christians follow the teaching of Jesus). You seem to be fairly familiar with the Bible, can you find a quote attributed to Jesus that could be construed as exhorting those “baptized” to inflict damage or even ostracize those who are “not baptized”? If not then when Jesus said ……there is not male or female… He meant equality for ALL and not only to the baptized. That is how Christians interpret it, otherwise they would have discriminatory laws as those above ones that the second Caliph, Omar, institutionalized when his armies pillaged the Near East and North Africa. Some are in effect till this day. He distilled those rules from the Quran and the sayings of the Arabian Prophet.

mr mahfouz-
ALL women were 3rd class citizens at the time of Jesus(ata)

if youre saying that it took 2000 years to get to equality-
that more of a sociological phenomenon than attributable to any one philosophy (unless you count the greeks)

i think youve gotten off track-

the point remains the same-\ proving or disproving he subjugation or mistreatment of women historically DOESNT prove that christian doctrine elevated women

it just proves- that women have been subjugated.

now if you have some instances where women rose above subjugation to positions of power in christian cultures-
that would HELP to prove it, at least anecdotally (which actually isnt proof, but lends credence)

since i havent made any statements about superiority- you dont have to be suspicious about my motives
have suspicion for the good in people instead

i really do not feel that it is necessary to denigrate another to climb to some position of superiority

actually, that kind of behavior is repellent to me

i gain nothing by anothers failure
it doesnt make me a success
im only a success if i earn it- not becuase someone else is put down

its just a question

i already know what scholars conjecture-
but i asked for scriptural documentation

so, ok, i already know its nto there as ive looked for years

so now you know too

no big deal, if you come up with something, let me know

(O i find it drags everything down if you take potshots or denigrate the women in islam, its not necessary you know?)

have you heard me make any negative statements about christians or women?

absolutely not!

a logical deconstruction of a text, is not casting aspersions or defaming a people-
and thats the most ive done

well, one more thing- and this is kind of negative, but deserved

i find that people seem to accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of-
and reveal their own intentions with their accusations

while you seemed suspicious that i would in the future try to prove muslim women were "better" than christian women
and i am definitely innocent of that suspicion

you actually, in the present, DID degrade muslim women-

it is what it is

ill look out to see if you come up with any scriptue
peace

hi arif-
i only have a minute here-

"Christian scripture is not consumed by Christians the same way Muslims do the Koran."

absolutely false arif-

scripture is used to justify every aspect of society in christianity-

and most christians will tell you that the bible is the literal word of god-
jut look at deuteronomy-
there are over 600 proscriptions and rules pertaining to the tiniest minutiae regarding all aspects of human interaction-

for the purposes of this conversation, let us assume when we say christian- we are talking about observant bible knowledgeable ones-

when we say muslim- let us also agree that we are speaking about it in the sense of one who follows the dictates of the qu'ran.

it would be better if we tried to keep the conversation to a somewhat logical nature

anecdotes, and asking why do people do this? can be answered with a variety of answers, not all pertinent to religion

im discussing just religion here

now., i can make conjecture- but have refrained from doing so because it distracts from the topic

to contend that christians dont use the bible as a literal and serious guide- is to bring the latter 19th century higher criticism into play-

which historically- did not eist until the , well, latter 19th century.

it is an honest question with no malevolent or self serving motives-

it is one i asked myself for many years-
now i am asking this audience

i appreciate mr mahfouz' reasoning and conjecture- however it is very subjective

since we al have differing views-to agree upon texts as representative of the adherents seems most reasonable-

mr mahfouz- as ive already pointed out 2 times-
the text you offered is specifically and only applicable to the baptized christian community in that historical period-

im hoping for a larger and more inclusive perspective
and scripture of course

Victoria:
“Christian scholars remain convinced that Jesus proclaimed the coming of
the Kingdom of God in which there would be no more injustice, suffering or evil, in which all people, rich and poor, slave and free, man and WOMAN would be on equal footing. This obviously proved particularly attractive as a message of hope to those who in the present age were underprivileged – the poor, the sick, the outcast. And the WOMEN.”
Ehrman, Jesus, 188-91.

“In any event it is clear that even after his death, Jesus’ message continued to be attractive to women. Some of Christianity’s early opponents among the pagans, including for example, the late-second –century critic Celsus, denigrated the religion on the grounds that “it was made up largely of children, slaves and WOMEN” (i.e., those of no social standing in society at large).”
Henry Chadwick, Origen’s “Contra Celsum” Cambridge: The Univ. Press1953).

Conclusion:
1.Women in Turkey, Greece and Rome were, during the time of Jesus, third class citizens, much like they are in present day Muslim societies.
2.Jesus gave them a vision of and hope for EQUALITY.
I posted therelevant scripture quote (Gal.3:27-28) two times already that confirms the equality spoken of above.

It is true, however, that some church leaders, who came after Paul tried to reassert men’s dominance over women in keeping with the pre-Christian culture of the region, but women who were emboldened by Jesus’ message of justice and equality maintained their march toward absolute equality. Ms. Joyce Meyers does not wear a veil nor put a scarf on her head as she ministers to the world.

Looking at this issue from a more concrete angle I reiterate my earlier observation. View the change in the status of Western women from before to after they embraced Christianity. Women in the civilized West could not travel alone, not allowed to vote. They were to have guardians as if they were under aged and many wore a Zorro-like shroud called Niqab. Compare with Phoebe, Prisca, Tryphaena, Junia…….: Christianity liberated them and set them on the road that Western women are on now

As regards to non-Western women the degree that Christianity affected the lives of those women could be gauged by comparing the quality of life for Christian and non-Christian women in the their different countries i.e. Sudan, Ethiopia, Egypt, Korea, Philippines and Nigeria.

The above should answer any legitimate question about the impact of Christianity on the status of women around the world. I do not believe that Victoria is after the truth, but has a hidden agenda; to improve the image of her religion. This, I sincerely believe, is an exercise in futility.

She keeps mentioning, although in a bashful manner, that (1) Islam granted women “the right to own property” and (2) that Christianity had not produced a woman like Aisha.
1)False, False, False! Women in the Arabian Peninsula had that right before Islam, as cited in an earlier post about Khadija. If anything, Islam curtailed that right by making women wards of their male relatives, thus rendering this “right” practically obsolete.
2)Aisha the Great? For those who do not know who we are talking about, this is the 6 years old child that was “betrothed” to the “Messenger of Allah” who was 52 years old at the time. I do not think Victoria was thinking about this “achievement”. This woman had after the death of her husband incited some members of her father’s clan to do battle with the supporters of Ali, her husband’s son in law. They had bad blood between them since the time she was accused of dilly dallying with a young man that had been an old childhood friend. Ali was among those who counseled the Prophet to divorce her. (She was declared innocent only after the Archangel Gabriel announced to the Prophet her innocence).

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Apparently you are finding the flaws in Islam. Besides tearing down a few curtains, what else have you done to eliminate the warmongering, anti-female passages in the koran? Until this is done, the famous quote, "Until the koran is "DEFLAWED", no one is safe" says it all.

"can you find any christian scripture that supports mr mahfouz' assertion that christianity has liberated and elevated the women it has come in contact with?"

Christian scripture is not consumed by Christians the same way Muslims do the Koran. The Koran is a manual if you will, for life and society. It dictates how one lives, eats, procreates, spends even how one goes to the toilet (I'm stretching this one). Christians use the Bible for entirely different reasons than Muslims do the Koran, most important is the Christians believe the Bible is God-inspired text, Muslims believe the Koran is Allah’s words. Some even tell you there is a Gold Koran in Heaven! Ask the grey beards.

Man by nature is violent, by nature the Male species is possessive and male physical power dominates the female. Somewhere down the line people "invented" religion. This has all evolved, a wise woman once told me, "...Then Man created God". Islam's fundamental problem is that it never evolved; its flaws were never addressed. The reason was the founder of this religion was a severely flawed person, I'm sorry if I offend you by saying that-I really am, because I know very well how Muslims revere this man. When you argue with your grey beards that is essentially what you are doing - bringing reason and evolution to Islam... good for you because no one else will or can.
The reason Islam never evolved is because Mohammed killed people who criticized him, women at that. You refuse to believe that but evidence is there you only have to read it. His very own uncle used to criticize him, Mohammed could not kill his uncle so he comes up with sura al lahaab I think its Sura 111 or something, read it...again, its such a vial sura, personally I don't think any supernatural being could come up with such words about a mere mortal AND his wife/children; who ironically had nothing to do with making fun of Mohammed.

I do believe Islam causes its followers to be violent. Mr. Mahfouz is doing a fine job so far in demonstrating that women of Christianity have held positions of prestige and power. Muslims may have had a few ladies in power but I know first hand what the role of women in Islam has been and continue to be 4-WALLS does not take a woman far trust me; Ask the grey beards what is “Char Diwaaree”?

The case of the Canadian girl strangled by her father is common from where I come; therefore making my case stronger that Islam causes this behavior. Columbine shooting, church shootings, murder, rape are all evils of society. Those killers do not have a Bible in one hand and a gun in the other, the 9/11 hijackers did! The suicide bombers do. Christian murders don't say; "I'm doing this for Jesus".

Before I go I'll leave you with this gem from the Koran;
"Scourge adulterers and adulteresses with 100 stripes. Do not show them any pity. Have a party of believers watch the punishment. Only adulterers can marry adulteresses. Believers are not to marry them."

Please, Please tell me what is this? Look at those words, why would an Almighty Creator of humans who created strong sexual drives too, have such words for Its own creation? Note: "Do not show them any pity". Please tell me this verse has nothing to do with the Canadian Muslim man strangling his daughter.

lib, you really limit who i am by your 2 categories, simply- you dont really know much about my background-

as an american woman who grew up watching her liberated mother break through the glass ceiling to become the first union steward of her union,
i can tell you without hesitation that there is no monopoly on misogyny and partiarchal oppression in america and everyhwere-

and you men are the most guilty ones-

so YOU need to get over your 50s mentalilty brainwashing and realize that equality HAS NOT been realized yet-

it is still an ongoing process

since i didnt grow up in pakistan arif- i really have a peripheral first hand knowledge in asian chauvinism-

i CAN tell you that in chicago- at MCC (big indo-pakistani mosque- we ladies tore down the ridiculous curtain that the grey beards put up=
and when they put it up again we prayed on the mens side-
and we tore it down again.

i can confirm some of the ridiculous brainwashing the women embody.

but they are the weakest elements of their own cultures, physically and financially dependent on medieval mentality men- and to maintain the status quo is in their own interests-

yes, abuse is rampant in the mosques
it rampant everyhwere
in america one of every 2 women are raped in their lifetime
in america 1 in 2 woman have been victims of domestic abuse
in america over 75% of all abuses, rape and otherwise occur from a known family memeber or friend

you think youre going to educate me about mans inhumanity to womyn?

my last job in chicago was in a homeless shelter for abused women and their children
over 350, and that is just one

you think, arif, that an anecdotal incident like that canadien murderer proves something?

by that reasoning, the american who just killed 4 people in the missionary proves something-

by you reasoning, the "wicked ideology" of christianity motivated the second killer-
(that is what motivated him by the way, hatred of wicked ch=ristianity)

its not wicked ideology that drives men to be mosters-
it is wicked hearts that beat within them

yes, men are violent creatures-

they will do violent and horrific things and use whatever available justification they can

ive had alot for arguments and discussion with pakistani grey beards (my presonal pet name, which i call them out loud to their face)

its not confrontational- if dealt with gently most of the older fellows at the mosques have a knowledge of what their religion of islam compels them to be-

for 5 years i had one of the best minds in islam 3 blocks away from me at the islamic institute of information and education and i was there every day for 4 5 6 hours picking his brian

sadly, he has passed on.
but his wife is currently the expert on pbs that answers questions on islam and women
(she is an american blue eyed white woman who converted in the 50s- when no one had heard of such a thing)
dr amir and mary ali

he gave me some serious instruction-
and ive had some serious discussions with grey beards ( i was the only woman on the 30 member council)

sorry for your bad experiences in the culturally constrictive atmosphere of your youth arif-

but it wasnt my life-

so im not viewing islam through your own particular lens-

as i mentioned quite earleir to mr mahfouz-

it is not the doctrine of christianity that compels africans an indian people to accept it-
but the inclusion in the christian society of their own homes, and its attendant benefits- uch as education opportunities and of course business connection that motivate many-

i honestly know very few converts who have a real and solid spiritually driven knowledge of what the bible actually says-

even the priests and monks i cited before-
who came to duquesne university in pittsburhg (on eof the leading theological center in the ENTIRE WORLD)

many of them had a peripheral knowledge of actual doctrine, na dwere educating themsleves in the social sciences with the intent of taking it bakc home to help their people
(splendid and extraordinary men, all)

although i did know one monk and missionary hwo had superlative knowledge- (one being an apologist)
and as i have been pretty anti-pauline for some time (did you know THAT one about me lib? i thought not)
we had some pretty inconclusive but fascinating conversations

but the answers always came down to the old "its a mystery" statement

a peculiarly illogical and disatisfying end to a logical conversation.

so, you can join in the challenge arif-

can you find any christian scripture that supports mr mahfouz' assertion that christianity has liberated and elevated the women it has come in contact with?

(keeping in mind that the culturally christianized country of ameirca didnt give women property ownership rights till 1920)

alrighty then, ill come back and see-
and o yes, i havent forgotten out previous conversation arif
peace all

Tim earlier has made some important observations, that religion defines culture, yes it does. The culture of India is actually deeply rooted in the Hindu religion. Also, the Hindus don't believe that Hindu is a religion; one is born a Hindu and therefore they never proselytize. Islam destroys the culture it assimilates. Current Pakistanis were once Hindus and now all have Arab names...look at my name! Islam ruined the Persian culture of the Zoroastrians when Muslim marauders invaded Persia, their names changed too!

Says Tim:
"Congratulations, you live in America so you practice your own personal version of Islam. That is because our culture is based on the tolerance and kindness expressed by Jesus Christ. "

Very true, Muslim women born in the West have the liberty to choose their Islam generic as it may well be. However that is changing rapidly, in Europe with Muslims growing in number they enforce change with the Politically Corrects help; dietary and women’s uniforms in schools for an example. Islam needs the host society’s compliance for its believers to “Submit”. How else do you think honor killers are treated very leniently in Muslim societies? Without societies strict laws it is very hard for Muslims to enforce their 4-wall rule on their women.
In Muslim countries a woman cannot travel alone, even grocery shopping and paying bills is quite a problem. It does get easier for 50+ women, however there is a catch-22 there, health usually gets in the way at that age and older.

A young 16 year old Muslim girl was recently strangled to death in Canada. Her crime was not wearing the Hijaab, her very own father strangled her. What drives a religious man to kill his very own daughter? Only a wicked ideology can make a man a monster. Politically correct people like Blair of England only exacerbate the situation. Good people cannot look the other way and pretend that such crimes are not religiously motivated. For Muslim women and particularly converts to Islam, it is important to recognize the grave faults that Islam carries with it in regards to basic women rights; this day and time. What is fascinating though about Islam is that these are the very people, the women in burkas and veils who make the most noise about the “freedoms” Islam grants them.

I LOVE this..."the festival of beheading", I hope I can borrow this without royalties AND the festival is coming to a neighborhood near you very soon!!!

Ibrahim Mahfouz: so far I like your posts.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Being a former Christian and now a brainwashed Muslim, you know women have been treated in general quite badly throughout biblical and koranic history. A lot of this is due to (as noted previously) by St. Paul being a "prude" from a region, i.e. Taurus, where "burka" women were treated like second class citizens.

Again this is a major flaw in Christianity and since this "Paul anti-female" attitude got picked up by Mo's scribes and/or was standard Arab discrimination, it became a major element of the koran. My suggestion is to follow the Five F Rule. "First Find the Flaws, then Fix the Foundations". We await your Fixes!!!!!

obviously, that last post was mine-

i really hope its clear now mr mahfouz and you can address what is actually asked, not what you want to answer but what is put forth-

salthough you seem somewhat stuk in the clothing of women, this isnt about clothes-
or historical misogyny-
of which islam, greeks, christians or anyone, even buddhists have a dismal record.

lib- paul was from tarsus
taurus is a zodiac sign

so the topic, as if it isnt abundantly clear-
where in scripture is womens equality stated?

thats the first question , which never got answered although i did provide many verses to disprove it.
in a logical scientific fashion-
just go one at a time

hi mr mahfouz-
there was no change in my question- it has remained the same and consistently so-
i never asked about women ONLY in the 1st century-
here is a progression of my questions

" i can think of no where in the OT or NT where there is any mention of social freedoms or rights"
dec. 7, 1:12AM

"so ill add that to the former challenge-
can anyone find any exhortations to equality of races- etc in the bible?
and ill add can anyone point to any affirmations of the EQUALITY OF WOMEN?"
dec 8 1:34AM

"so ill go logically-
the subject was WOMEN'S EQUALITY in the BIBLE-"
dec 8 1:50PM

"so , where is the SCRIPTURE? and how do you discount or refute the scripture provided that seems to suggest the inequality, or inferiortiy of women to men?
dec 8 2:39PM

THIS IS I BELIEVE WHAT CONFUSED YOU-

"i think we can both agree that a woman would have to have some degree of self determination and respect from the (lets face it) patriarchal societies that have ruled mankind thru history-
why dont you compile a list of christian women leaders STARTING with their elevation and liberation at 1 BC- im sure 100AD would have been sufficent time for that elevation to have manifested itself to produce some christian women rulers and leaders-"
dec 9 3:45PM

"where are the SCRIPTURE that speak of EQUALITY OF WOMEN in the bible?
where are the liberated women of christianity who became leaders?"
dec 11 2:15PM


so, as you can see, this is not a correct statement- by you-

"I am thankful that you supplied Victoria with all those names, but that was not her original request. She wanted the names of prominent Christian women from 1 BC to 100 AD. Go back and read her post, the one before the last, and to which I have been replying. After I replied to that post she quickly CHANGED the request to "Women throughout history" to which you were quick to answer. She is still asking for statements that I supplied earlier on. Either she does not read the posts or she acts dumb.

despite your quickness to cast disparagement-
mo mr nahfouz-
the question has stayed the same

i think you read it too quickly so you either didnt understand the first time- or wanted to avoid the question

as for your other-
dont you remember we already had that conversation?

you should have posted the ENTIRE scripture-

the whole text-
this is applicable ONLY to describe the realtionship betweeen baptized christians amongst themselves-
GALATIANS
27 For all of YOU WHO WERE BAPTIZED into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendant, heirs according to the promise.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

so, the saying is flanked before and after with references to THOSE IN CHRIST
and applies specifically to them- no all of mankind in any way

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SO TO RECAP-

I NEVER SAID FIRST CENTURY- I SIAD THROUGHOUT HISTROY, AND THEN STARTING WITH THE FIRST CENTURY, OF COURSE GOING FORWARD.

you misunderstood

you see countless places whare i asked the same question-

A TOTAL OF 7 QUESTIONS ALL THE SAME

here ill make it extremely clear-

you contend that women were liberated by christianity

i contend that women have been subjugated in every society by oppressive patriarchal systems-
up to and including our own american christian culturalized country up to august 26,1920 when women were finally counted as full human beings with legal rights and had the right to own property- (muslim women had that right 1400 years before that)

STARTING WITH THE 1ST CENTURY- WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO CONSTRUCT A LIST OF WOMEN WHO ASCENDED TO POWERFUL POSITIONS IN CHRISTIAN COUNTRIES THROUGHOUT HISTORY THEREBY CONFIRMING YOUR ASSERTION?

of COURSE i can provide a list of muslim women- but it would have to be a link as there are too many-

but since i asked you this question 7 times-(actaully i asked it more- the same posts have the question repeated)
the onus is on you to prove your point-

actually ive been asking for the scripture to refute the scripture i posted-

over and over again i asked for scriptrual support for your contentions-

since you never came up with even one-
i decided to go easy on you and let anecdotal evidences be your proof

since you are not able to provide anecdotal evidences as proof-

i am at a loss as to how to make it any easier on you and can only conclude that you came up with nothing

i would prefer scripture, however i already know i doesnt exist

in lieu of scripture , anecdotes from histroy will suffice (i guess although i dont ususally accept them as conclusive proof of a doctrine- only scripture can really provide that)

so you see, i formulated the question on dec 7th addressing an anonymous poster BEFORE you and i engaged in conversation!

(becuase i gave up on an answer for equal rights for humans in the bible, as i already know that ,too, doesnt exist)

again - IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE SAME QUESTION
IT WAS YOUR DECISION TO CONCENTRATE ON WOMEN IN GREECE(TURKEY) AND HOW WOMEN WERE ELEVATED

but still, the women you cited were all working with their husbands too-

if youre a scientist you can understand the logical progression of the questions, and the need for substance in the answers
ok, have at it then!

"

Added info about the burka etc:

From Professor Bruce Chilton's book, Rabbi Paul, p. 214:

"So Paul did seem arrogant. He even thought that his cultural preferences should outweigh local customs: in some ways everybody was supposed to behave as if they came from Taurus.

p. 215:

"The burka we associate with Islam is no Muslim invention, but had been well established during Paul's time in Taurus.

Other comments from the same section of the book:

(Professor Chilton pulls no punches in criticizing one of the founders of Christianity. Basically Paul was a "prude".)

"He (Paul) feared the turn-on of women's voices as much as the sight of their hair and skin..... At one point he even suggests that the sight of female hair might distract any angels/("pretty wingie talking fictional thingies") in church attendance (1 Cor. 11:10).

Simply add Paul's thinking about women to the list of flaws in the foundations of Christianity.

Professor Chilton btw is a Professor of Religion at Bard College and a priest at the Free Church of St. John in Barrytown, NY.

Hmmm, do you think maybe that Mo's scribes simply enhanced Paul's thinking about women when they wrote the koran??? Absolutely!!!!

Victoria:
" For many of you as were baptized into Christ
have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free; there is not male and female, for all of you are ONE in Jesus Christ." (Gal. 3:27-28). This is the scripture that come to mind. I am not a theologian to know off- hand all the verses. I am a scientist by training. I know there are many others but that one alone is sufficient for me. Furthermore I did not even need this scriptures to know that Christianity elevated the status of women. I have concluded that from the condition of women in Rome and Greece before conversion and after. You judge a tree by its fruits. This is something that Muslims seem never to get.

Now you change your game plan and want to know the prominent Christian women throughout history and not only the ones in the First century. Our "Liberated" friend provided you with a list. Do you need some more? Why don't you provide us with a list of prominent women from your "sisters in Islam".

Your claim that the fact that Greek and Roman women served in temples is a proof of their pre-Christian eminence is ridiculous. Go do some research on what those women were there for.

You keep harping on Burqa and Niqab. I said that Greek women wore Burqa. Another cite that I consulted said they wore Niqab. In Niqab a woman shows only her eyes while the Afghani Burqa the eyes are covered by a somewhat thinner material so the woman can see her way around. Is any one of those shrouds more civilized than the other? Can you differentiate between them? Which one do you recommend? Al Salaam Alaikum

Liberated
I am thankful that you supplied Victoria with all those names, but that was not her original request. She wanted the names of prominent Christian women from 1 BC to 100 AD. Go back and read her post, the one before the last, and to which I have been replying. After I replied to that post she quickly changed the request to "Women throughout history" to which you were quick to answer. She is still asking for statements that I supplied earlier on. Either she does not read the posts or she acts dumb.

I know a lot about your philosophy. At present I am reading the book "The God Delusion" by Dawkins. Even though I do not agree with many of the Atheist arguments yet I hold a tremendous respect for them because they use reason. I could never have any respect for Islam for many reasons, the most important being the way they treat their women. Muslim women in Africa and the Middle East are converting to Christianity to escape enslavement by their male relatives and here we see women in the West,like this one we are dealing with, go the other way. In this country they can openly profess their preferences. Let a Muslim woman, or man, openly declare their conversion in Saudi Arabia or Sudan or any one of the predominantly Muslim countries and automatically it becomes legal according to their Sharia(religious law) for anyone to kill them.

thanks mr mahfouz- you cited he women who worked with paul several times now-

but it doesnt answer the question-

what scripture supports your contention?
and what women in history have been leaders, or powerful women to prove that women indeed were elevated by christianity-

as i stated that even into the 20th century- women didnt have property (or even status as full people) rights-

you said before that women in those times were oppressed-
but they werent- women ran the temples-
women were the oracles and servants of the goddesses

despite your attempt to prove they wore burqas- they didnt
at all
so there is nothing unusual about he activites of he women you keep citing
most of them worked with their husbands also-


the list doesnt go on and on-
thats pretty much the whole list-
ive read pauline scripture many times-
now- what scripture support or refute the scripture i posted which clearly indicates the second rate status of women (according to pauline scripture)
the names persis (its a place) th
youve made many posts saying the same things over and over again-
but there is no pertinence to the question

prisca?

am i supposed to look this all up myself or just take your word it has soem meaning?
prisca lived in 451 AD and was a roman noblewoman

anyway- it is your contention that they were oppressed and became liberated in order to do these works-
but historically spartan women (close to the areas paul was in ) had many freedoms-
so it wasnt that they were suddenly released form oppression-

LYDIA, for instance, was a business owner prior to encountering paul or christianity

so- as i asked- where in history are the women who were lifted up and went on to become forces in their own liberated right?

and scripture?
please?

where are the aishas?
where are the teachers? amd authorities?
(as aisha was, still repsected to this day)

ok- women were invloved peripherally in the formation of the churches-
but they werent in positions of power or authority at all-

and the same time period timothy and paul are telling them they cannot teach a man or have any authority aT ALL!
OR EVEN SPEAK!

scripture?
and please- if you cite scripture, could you actually provide it? that is what i do-

thanks

Victoria
"As for women in Christianity let us mention few who worked with the Apostle Paul. Paul in his Letters to the Romans mentions Phoebe as a deacon (or minister) in the church of Cenchrae, and Paul's own patron, whom he entrusts with the task of carrying his letters to Rome (vv.1-2). And there is Prisca who was responsible for missionary work among the Gentiles and who supports a Christian congregation in her home(vv.3-4). Then there is Mary, a colleague of Paul's who works among the Romans(vv.6);there are also Tryphaena, Tryposa, and Persis, women whom Paul calls his "coworkers” in the gospel(vv.6,12). And there are Julia and the mother of Rufus and the sister of Nereus , all of whom appear to have a high profile in the community(vv.13,15). Most impressive of all there is Junia, a woman whom Paul calls foremost among the Apostles (v.7)". This goes on and on. This is not mentioning the many women who shared Jesus' ministry or the ministries of the many other Apostles and early church leaders.
This was part of an earlier post. You should have read it before mocking my data. Those names I mentioned are not of places but of women who lived during the First Century. Where are my sources? My sources are written next to each name. You could not be that naive.
What you describe as my out- of- the-subject diatribe is simpy not. You made a big mistake by making an outrageous claim (Women having rights in Islam) and I simply could not let you get away with it.You are now using the strategy which says "the best defense is an offense". This is the strategy of Muslim apologists. I see it all the time on Muslim TV stations. The problem is they fabricate a story or an idea then it becomes real to them. Maybe that is why they have no scientists.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Hmmm, a bit history challenged are we??

Queen Elizabeth, Queen Victoria, Katherine the Great, Margaret Thacher, Madeliene Albright, Joan of Arc, Mother Teresa, Emma Parks, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Dole, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Teresa of Avila, Lina Joy, aka Azlina Jailani

Lydia and Phoebe—*
Mary Magdalene—one of Jesus' closest followers

Mary of Bethany—disciple of Jesus. Sometimes misidentified with Mary Magdalene
Mary—Mother of Jesus
Priscilla— with her husband Aquila was a New Testament teacher, partner with Apostle Paul,

Women prominent in the Early Christian Church

Antoinette Bourignon—a mystic
St. Bridget of Sweden (1302–1373)
Heloise (student of Abelard)
Hilda of Whitby—royal abbess in the 7th century.
Hildegard of Bingen—wrote much music (there being some recordings)
Julian of Norwich— a mystic
St. Margery Kempe (c.1373–1438)
Saint Macrina the Younger—sister and influence upon Saint Basil the Great and Saint Gregory of Nyssa
St. Clare of Assisi—founded the Poor Clares
St. Julian of Norwich (1342-c.1416)
St. Scholastica—twin sister of Benedict of Nursia

[edit] Women prominent in the Catholic church (Post-Reformation)
Mme Guyon was influential in Quietism (Christian philosophy)
Mother Cabrini—missionary to New York and first canonized US citizen
St. Elizabeth Ann Seton—founded the Sisters of Charity
St. Faustina Kowalska—promoted devotion to Divine Mercy
St. Katharine Drexel—founded the Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament, which performed charitable works for Native Americans and African Americans
St. Rose Philippine Duchesne—co-founder of the Society of the Sacred Heart

In 1970 three women were declared Doctor of the Church

St. Catherine of Siena
St. Teresa of Avila
St. Thérèse of Lisieux

Feliksa Kozlowska was involved in the establishment of the Mariavite Church, a Catholic-based church one part of which accepts women priests and bishops.

Women prominent in Protestant Churches
There have been a number of hymns written by women, and also psalms, from the pen of Fanny Crosby and Emily Gosse, for example.

Aimee Semple McPherson ("Sister Aimee") an early 20th century evangelist and founder of the Foursquare Church
Ann Wardley—contributed to the development of the Shakers
Catherine Booth—cofounder of the Salvation Army
Elizabeth Fry—Quaker and prison reformer
Ellen G. White—co-founder and prophetess of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Evangeline Booth—fourth General of the Salvation Army
Hannah Whitall Smith—prominent leader in the Holiness movement
Joanna Southcott—an 18th Century self-described religious prophetess and founder of Southcottians
Li Tim-Oi The first female priest to be ordained in the Anglican Communion
Louisa Maria Hubbard (1836–1906)—involved in the deaconess movement and published in 1871 a pamphlet: Anglican Deaconesses: is there No Place for Women in the System?
Mother Ann Lee—leader of the Shakers in America
Phoebe Palmer—prominent leader in the Holiness movement
Selina, Countess of Huntingdon—was

mr mahfouz-

i asked you if you could present a list of christian women leaders throughout history.

your answer-
"It is from such women in such culture that Paul and the other early Christians sent Phoeb,Prisca,Tryphaena,Trpoea Persis and many many others to do missionary works with the Gentiles and to lay the foundaion of the greatest and most populous religion that the world ever witnessed."

ps- paul didnt send prica anywhere-
she was a noblewoman from rome in 451 AD

who is tryphaena?
other than on eof the grandaughters of cleopatra?
is extremely insufficient- doesnt address the question at all.

who is trpoea?
persis i a place not a person-

out of your entire effort you came up with one woman?

am i to believe you could find none?

if christianity liberated women so much- history shoud be replete with examples of how that liberaton manifested.

also- you never DID provide the scripture or verses ive requested.

a long diatribe AGAINST something (with faulty reasoning and inaccurate accounts)

doesnt prove your point at all-
but it does prove that your search came up empty
handed and you had to resort to attacking something else becuase you couldnt prove your point-
so, again,

where are the scripture that speak of equality for women in the bible?

where are the liberated women of christianity who became leaders?

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Deflection and more deflection!!!!!

When are you going to address the flaws in the koran? By correcting said flaws, our concern for the welfare of Islamic and non-Islamic women in Islamic theocracies would no longer be a major global issue.

Re: Aonymous
I am the author of that post and responsible for it. I simply forgot to sign my name.

"With the notable exception of Plato, Athenian philosophers believed that women had strong emotions and weak minds. For this reason they had to be protected from themselves and they had to be prevented from doing damage to others. Guardianship was the system developed to deal with this perceived quality in women."

It is from such women in such culture that Paul and the other early Christians sent Phoeb,Prisca,Tryphaena,Trpoea Persis and many many others to do missionary works with the Gentiles and to lay the foundaion of the greatest and most populous religion that the world ever witnessed. If you don't call that an elevation of women status I don't know what is. As for you remark that Islam had 1400 years ago gave rights to women that the West gave to their women only after 1920, below is a summary of what Islam gave to women throughout the past 1400 years.
Women in Sharia
Muslim preachers and advocates in the West, preach and lecture that “Islam elevated the status of women”. That message is not dealt with in the mosques and airwaves of Muslim countries because they know the audience there know better. The above italicized macabre claim would not be made to the people of the West either if it were not for the prevalent perception among the Arab and Arabised Muslims that the Westerners in general and the people of the United States in particular are “simple minded” and gullible. Their denigrating assessment of the “other” is the processing of a fettered nomadic tribal mindset prone to exclusivity and obsessed with visions of bygone triumphs.

The term “elevate” in the above claim implies improvement in the quality of Muslim women’s life since pre-Islamic times --pre 630 AD, which they refer to as the “Age of Ignorance”. The Prophet of Islam, Mohammed (570-632AD), married his first wife, Khadija (555-620A D), in Mecca , Hejaz, during the pre-Islamic period. She lived all of her 65 years in the “Age of Ignorance”. Let us compare her “status” with that of present day (2007AD) women of her hometown, Mecca, to gauge the extent Islam had “elevated” the social standing of women over the past fourteen hundred years.

Khadija bint Khuwailed was a wealthy literate woman who owned a huge commercial enterprise as well as a fleet of more than 500 camels to transport her wares. She hired Mohammad to travel with her caravans to Yemen and Syria as manager of her trading business. She divorced two husbands and never was in a polygamous relationship. She proposed marriage to Mohammad when she was 40 and he was 25. He never took another wife while married to her and their marriage lasted 25 years, ending with her death. She never veiled her face and traveled freely.

How many women in Mecca today can read and write and own their own businesses? How many women in Mecca today have a say about their prospective husbands let alone propose to them or divorce them? How many women in Mecca today are living in a monogamous marriages or married to a younger man? How many Meccan women show their faces or travel alone? How then did Islam elevate women? Is it by institutionalizing polygamy and the culture of concubines? Mohammad’s mother and grandmothers, all of whom lived in the pre-Islamic era, did not share their husbands with other wives, yet he had 9 wives and unknown number of concubines at the time of his death. Is this the way Islam and its founder elevated women? Or by ruling that women inherit half their brother’s share and their testimony, when accepted, counts as equivalent to only half that of a man? Or maybe by making it “Halal” or lawful for men to lie to their wives and beat them? Is it by giving the man the right to divorce simply by uttering the sentence “I divorce you” three times, or by institutionalizing the practice of female genital mutilation they call “Khatan ”? How is that elevating to women? How does any of those above mentioned practices that were institutionalized and spread by Islam to include over a billion people today could have improved upon the status and welfare of a pre-Islamic woman such as Khadija?

The Arabian Peninsula had many powerful and influential women during the “Age of Ignorance”. The famous Queen Balqees or Queen of Sheba ruled a thriving and prosperous Sheba (Yemen), just south of Hejaz, three thousand years ago . Sujaj, Um Qirfa, Um Zumol were chieftains of their Hejaz tribes. Afra and Zabra were High Priestesses, a position comparable to a Prime Minister. All the above lived before Islam. Al Khansaa was a popular prime poetess in Mecca during Mohammad’s time. How many notable or influential Muslim women from Hejaz or the whole Arabian Peninsula have you heard of? The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, which includes Hejaz as a province, had only very recently allowed girls into schools. Women there are not allowed to vote, drive a car or even walk outside their enclosed courtyards unless covered completely from top to bottom with black shrouds called Niqab and escorted by either the father, a brother, a son or husband.

The people in the West read the books from which the Muslims derive their Sharia or Religious Law, and have observed the Muslims’ practices as well as know their history. The West did not get to their present level of eminence in all of human endeavors by being ignorant, illiterate, passive or closed- minded. The whole world knows now the status of women under the Sharia. The Muslim missionaries in the West need to be very well aware that their audience are steeped in a culture that respects honesty and practices critical thinking. Such easily verifiable misleading claims will only further diminish the credibility of Muslims and tarnish their religion.

i have an idea mr mahfouz-

(o- i assume you retract your accusation that i made any disrespectful comment to you ro called you any name-
clearly - i have not-

ok- well let it go then-

i think we can both agree that a woman would have to have some degree of self determination and respect from the (lets face it) patriarchal societies that have ruled mankind thru histroy-

why dont you compile a lsit of christian women leaders starting with their elevation and liberation at 1 BC- im sure 100AD would hgave been sufficent time for that elevation to have manifested itself to produce some christian women rulers and leaders-

mr mahfouz-

still- you havent presented a date-
or proven what you said-
you claimed women in greece wore burqas and were elevated by chrsitianity-

but you havent proven anything-
ok- you got the dress wrong-

well- how are you proving anything?

you quoted-
"
With the notable exception of Plato, Athenian philosophers believed that women had strong emotions and weak minds. For this reason they had to be protected from themselves and they had to be prevented from doing damage to others. Guardianship was the system developed to deal with this perceived quality in women.
Every woman in Athens had a kyrios (guardian) who was either her closest male birth-relative or her husband. Although she could own her clothing, jewelry, and personal slave and purchase inexpensive items, she was otherwise unable to buy anything, own property or enter into any contract. Her kyrios controlled everything about her life."

are you aware that his description would fit compeltely the staus of american free women in america until aUGUST 26, 1920?

actually, women in pre-1920 america couldnt control ANY finances- and could not own property at all.

women couldnt own property in america mr mahfouz until 1920-
are you saying that misogyny and patriarchal systems have controlled women to their detriment throughout history?
absolutely- i agree completely

are you saying there is anywhere in the world today where women have complete equal rights?
(in america women earn 71 cents on the dollar that men earn, and are principally reponsible for child care and financial burdens)

actually i did google women in greece- this was the first link and first paragraph-

"Hypatia of Alexandria
Philosopher, astronomer and mathematician, she headed up a Neoplatonic School, part of the Museum of Alexandria, Egypt. Her students were pagan and Christian young men from around the empire. She was killed by a mob of Christians in 415, probably inflamed by the bishop of Alexandria, Cyril."

(14.4) There was nothing shameful in the girls' nakedness, because it was accompanied by modesty and self-control. It produced in them simple habits and an intense desire for good health, and gave the female sex a taste for noble sentiments, since they shared with the males virtue and desire for glory. As a result they tended to speak and think the kind of thing that Gorgo, the wife of king Leonidas, is reported to have said. When (as it seems) a foreigner said to her, 'You Spartans are the only WOMEN WHO RULE OVER THEIR MEN', she replied, 'Because only we are the mothers of men'. [23]

ANYWAY- the onus is on you to provide support for your contention that christianity elevated he status of women in corinth

it certainly didnt make it to the 20th century- where women still could not legally be counted as people, and couldnt even own property-
(a right islam conferred upon women 1400 years before)

actually- there were many stories from the google you suggested about women in greek society who were the first womens libbers-

you seem to be disproving yourself with your own info-

ok- so go to it then-
(im sure you will ignore the status of 20th century american women completely)

IN ATHENS (2)
(Google: Women in Greece).
"All ancient societies drew a distinction between the free and the slave, even if slaves were few in number. Ancient Egypt saw very little difference in law between men and women, while Athens (and most other societies) did. Athens also drew a sharp distinction between citizen and resident alien, between legitimate born and the illegitimate, and between the woman who was a wife and the one who was not wife. We lack information on the non-citizen but presumably they tried to copy what they would have perceived as the ideal.
With the notable exception of Plato, Athenian philosophers believed that women had strong emotions and weak minds. For this reason they had to be protected from themselves and they had to be prevented from doing damage to others. Guardianship was the system developed to deal with this perceived quality in women.
Every woman in Athens had a kyrios (guardian) who was either her closest male birth-relative or her husband. Although she could own her clothing, jewelry, and personal slave and purchase inexpensive items, she was otherwise unable to buy anything, own property or enter into any contract. Her kyrios controlled everything about her life. (Compare this with the Pater families in Ancient Rome.) Citizenship for a woman entitled her to marry a male citizen and it enabled her to join certain religious cults closed to men and non-citizens, but it offered no political or economic benefits.
Girls in Athens were normally married soon after puberty to men who were typically in their late twenties or early thirties. Her father or other guardian provided the dowry and arranged the match. The betrothal symbolized the groom's acceptance of the qualities of the dowry as well as the qualities of the bride".

This confirms my position, which the Muslim woman and her one time ally the Atheist opposed, that it was Christianity which elevated (Greek) women status socially as well, as off course, spiritually and not the other way around i.e. Greece civilizing Christendom. Why the above described status is only a bit better than that of Muslim women in Muslim societies today. I know what I am talking about because I was born and raised in the Middle East and lived in Africa, Europe and the United States.

WOMEN IN ATHENS
(google: Women in Greece).

"All ancient societies drew a distinction between the free and the slave, even if slaves were few in number. Ancient Egypt saw very little difference in law between men and women, while Athens (and most other societies) did. Athens also drew a sharp distinction between citizen and resident alien, between legitimate born and the illegitimate, and between the woman who was a wife and the one who was not wife. We lack information on the non-citizen but presumably they tried to copy what they would have perceived as the ideal.

With the notable exception of Plato, Athenian philosophers believed that women had strong emotions and weak minds. For this reason they had to be protected from themselves and they had to be prevented from doing damage to others. Guardianship was the system developed to deal with this perceived quality in women.

Every woman in Athens had a kyrios (guardian) who was either her closest male birth-relative or her husband. Although she could own her clothing, jewelry, and personal slave and purchase inexpensive items, she was otherwise unable to buy anything, own property or enter into any contract. Her kyrios controlled everything about her life. (Compare this with the Pater familias in Ancient Rome.) Citizenship for a woman entitled her to marry a male citizen and it enabled her to join certain religious cults closed to men and non-citizens, but it offered no political or economic benefits.
Girls in Athens were normally married soon after puberty to men who were typically in their late twenties or early thirties. Her father or other guardian provided the dowry and arranged the match. The betrothal symbolized the groom's acceptance of the qualities of the dowry as well as the qualities of the bride".

This confirms my position to the Muslim woman and Atheist man who concurred with her that it was Christianity who elevated(Greek) women status socially as well, off course, spiritually and not the other way around.Why the above described status is only a bit better than that of Muslim women in Muslim societies today. I know what I am talking about because I was born and raised in the Middle East and lived in Europe and the United States.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Again and again, I ask:

Finished that report on the bible and social justice????

Also you noted:

"ive known alot of african priests and monks.
now of course it is possible that woman are becoming christian because they believe it confers equal rights for women- but christianity doesnt actually teach that anywhere"

Names of the priests and monks, country of origin??

mr mahfouz- "We know that some Greek women and especially virtuous Roman women veiled their faces in public. And the same is true of the Persian Empire. So veiling as such pre-dates Islam as a form of modest concealment. But, in the three examples I have mentioned, the use of the veil was social and cultural, and had little or no religious significance."

actually the practice of face vels was an import to persia from the byzantine empire-

i know this from my own research on the subject-

very wealthy men had their harems wear veils in public- the meaning was - the women were too beautiful to be viewed by the common people-
and obviously it was a practice of the very wealthy-

when they traveled to persia the women there adopted the practice to enhance their own standing-
to be perceived as too beautiful to be seen- and very rich.
it was a social status raising ploy.
that actually conferred an undeserved POWER upon the women who did so-
not oppression or subjugation as you suggested

interesting topic

but not pertinent to corinth at the time of paul when he wrote the prohibitions to the women on their dress-

besides- the subject you brought up to refute my point was not niqab(fave veil) at all- but burqa- in your words-

"Greek women at that time were even treated worse; they were made to wear Burqa like many of your sisters in Afghaistan, Pakistan and other places today."

this simply, as i believe i have done but can do some more-
it patently not true at all.

but the subject never was so superficial as to dress- but as to treatment and perception of women-
how the scripture treats them and what it says about them-

keeping silent- being forbidden to teach or speak are much more important issues

im sorry if i said anything that disrespected you
ive called you 'sir' and i cannot find any where that i called you a name-

all i could find that might be upsetting to you was i said your point was ill-conceived-

i dont really find that strong language- but perhaps it offended you- so i apologize.

i didnt go to a restaurant- but the hellenic cultural center-

and related what happened.

so, thank you for your conversation
it seems you and i will agree to disagree and peace to you sir

"We know that some Greek women and especially virtuous Roman women veiled their faces in public. And the same is true of the Persian Empire. So veiling as such pre-dates Islam as a form of modest concealment. But, in the three examples I have mentioned, the use of the veil was social and cultural, and had little or no religious significance."
This is a quote from a cite I had just obtained by googling"Greek Niqab" and under the heading Why? Why, Why?. I do not know why you got hung up on this trifle bit of information to the extent of even making a pilgrimage to a Greek restaurant to do your "research".You are playing dirty. You ignore the substantial issues and home in on side superfluous issues,indulge in name calling and now you are doubting my integrity.I hoped to carry on an intelligent dialogue but, as usual, I was too optimistic and very wrong.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

I reiterate:

Finished that report on the bible and social justice????

Also you noted:

"ive known alot of african priests and monks.
now of course it is possible that woman are becoming christian because they believe it confers equal rights for women- but christianity doesnt actually teach that anywhere"

Names of the priests and monks, country of origin??

With respect to women in religion, lets start with something contemporary:

Actually your former sister Muslim, Ayaan Hirsi Ali covers the Islamic situation in her book, Infidel.

The summary of said book explains why:

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."

ref: Washington Post book review.

With respect to treatment of women in the bible:

See Professors Crossan and Reed's review in their book, In Search of Paul, and Professor Bruce Chilton's review in his book, Rabbi Paul for an review by people who have graduate degrees in theology and religious history.

BTW, if you continue reading the bible, you risk a reconversion. If you reconvert, make sure you convert to the "deflawed" Christianity or whatever new path you choose.

And a few other items:

Quoting from Genesis is a waste of time. No contemporary biblical scholar believes that anything in these passages are historical or accurate. e.g. time line is off by 55,000 years, A&E did not live in some magical garden.

And the Paul's epistles to Timothy and Titus were written by "pseudo" Pauls.

And just think the anti-female rhetoric that is in some of Paul and pseudo Paul epistles ended up in the koran. Hmmm, how did that happen?

And as with all the NT authors, Paul was not, repeat not, inspired by God. Might say he was bred, born and brainwashed in Judaism but saw a brighter more profitable Roman road in the "cross overing" Jewish Jesus followers.

And to stay somewhat on topic, how does the Book of Mormon treat women? Is Mormon leadership restricted to men?

this is what the site of tom tierney had to say about ancient greek women dress-

Greek women wore one large piece of wool or linen, wrapped around them and pinned in various ways to make it stay. The ways of pinning it changed over time. One way was to fold the cloth in half, and put it so that the fold in the cloth came under your right armpit and down your right side. Then pull up on the front and the back of the cloth so they meet over your right shoulder and pin the front and the back together with a big safety pin. Then pull more of the front up over your left shoulder, and pin it to the back in the same way. Finally you will notice that your dress is still open all along your left side: tie a belt around your dress at the waist to keep your dress closed. These dresses always came down to their ankles.

When it was cold, women also had long wool cloaks/blankets to keep them warm.

so, as your point was ill conceived and incorrect-

the dress proscribed for women in timothy states-

5
But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled brings shame upon her head, for it is one and the same thing as if she had had her head shaved.
6
For if a woman does not have her head veiled, she may as well have her hair cut off. But if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should wear a veil.
7

"
mr mahfouz-
you misquoted me-

"In a previous post you said that African Muslim women may convert to Christianity but no Western Muslim woman would. I don't believe you realize how racist is this statement."

i most certainly did not say that-
this is exactly what i said-

"i am not familar with any cases of muslim women converting to christianity in the west, although im sure it happens somewhere."

well-
i DID go to the Hellenic Cultural Cebter this afternoon-
i asked the man and woman there if they were aware of any times in greek history when women dressed in a covered fashion.

the exact words of the gentlemna there were, "Quite the contrary"

he made a sweeping gesture with his arm towards the may statues, bowls and artwork displayed.

the woman looked at me incredulously, then asked why would i ask such a thing?

i didnt ask your opinon or reasoning sir-
i asked you to cite scripture-

let it go- if you have a link- post it-
i dont research for people and dont present anything without substantiation and sources and or links-

but you so misunderstood my statement and misquoted me in a negative way-

i dont indulge such dialogue.

so, as you havent given any scripture or verse-
and your line of reasoning falls short of satisfaction-

now here is your resource-
http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Greek-Costumes-History-Costume/dp/0486405745

tom tierney is a paper doll costume designer-

there is nothing there that looks like a niqab whatsoever(face veil)

actually it look like a tunic off the shoulder-

go look for yourself- that is hwat happened when i googled tom tierney ancient greek costumes-

it showed the same in 3 links-

it is not any proof that women in corinth in 1AD were dressed as you suggest -

now, i'll take my leave unless you care to provide the asked for references- or respond to the many scripture verses i posted
peace
but in no way comparable numberwise.

As a country, all too often we focus on differences. Whether they be political, religious, or any other sort, they are emphasized much stronger than our similarities. This furthers both the rifts within our country and with other countries. Furthermore, while it may clarify what our "enemies" stand for, it does not clarify what we stand for. As a result, we know what we do not believe without truly understanding what we do.
If, as you recommend, we discuss what our common beliefs are, we will be able to more specifically identify our enemies and understand why they are in fact our enemies. As a result, our actions will be more justified and we will have a strong sense of unity. This unified belief will make our country both a much better and a much stronger country. We will know who we are, and how to maintain our collective identity. While we may be a "community of communities," we do a have group identity and it strengthening it couldn't hurt. As Alexander Hamilton so accurately said "Those who stand for nothing, fall for anything."

Victoria (3)
1. Ancient Greek Costumes by Tom Tierney.
The dress looks very much like a Niqab
2. Paul said "there is neither slave nor free person, there is no Jew or Jentile not a male or female in Jesus Christ".
3. Jesus said "Love your enemies".
3.Jesus said " A man is to marry one woman and both shall be one"
This is all the evidence I need to know that Christianity taught tolerance and equality for women.
In a previous post you said that African Muslim women may convert to Christianity but no Western Muslim woman would. I don't believe you realize how racist is this statement. Those Muslims women from Africa are from Morocco, Algeria, Tunis and Egypt. They, unlike you, speak and understand Arabic and hear the texts of the Sharia in the original language and hear day in and day out the edicts and sermons of the many Muslim preachers. They heard about the many ludicrous fatwas such as the" Nursing of the Adult" whereby a woman working with men should nurse each five times, and the medicinal values of the camel urine or the miraculous effects of drinking the Prophet' urine or the permissability for a man to marry his illegitimate daughter etc. They also suffer from the injustice, among many others, of having to share their husbands with three other co-wives and unlimited number of concubines.That is what drove them to seek something better and not that they are simple minded, as you seem to insinuate.

as a matter of fact- my neighborhood is primarliy greek in the immediate area- there is a hellenic center of new york one block from my house-

i will stop there on my way shopping now and ask

actually mr mahfouz- there is no mention of burqas- but there IS mention of the greek custom of women shaving their heads, and a prohibition to do so- (which is actually kind of the opposite of covering, wouldnt you say?)

also- this was revealed in corinth-
(now in turkey) but at the time, a hellenized and greek society-
so it wouldnt matter what jewish women were doing elsewhere-
the whole verse seems more a porhibition of adopting the UNCOVERED AND SHAVEN greek women there- rather than the opposite- which is what you imply-

i researched several sites on greek women dress in that time period-
there is no indication anywere that women wore burqas- but rahter a loose off the shoulder tunic- this is consistent with every site i visited-

could you provide the information that makes you believe women in greece at the time of Jesus(ata) wore burqas?
http://www.richeast.org/htwm/Greeks/costume/costume.html
(or that they were in any way oppressed- from what i know of greek history- the woman were warriors, and free members of their society-
i would venture that they rivaled the modern concepts of liberation rather than- as you propose- oppressive restriction-

also, there are no instances in greek art that depict women as such-
i studied greek art extensively in art school- i do not recall ever seeing this ever-

and if we want to discuss misongyny in history, we can also do that-
but it is outside of the point, isnt it?
my question was and remains, what scripture supports thie idea of equal rights for women?

how can it be construed to be a christian ideal, and if so- why did it tale women almost 2000 years to discover this and claim it?

wouldnt it have been obvious?
so , where is the scripture? and how do you disconut or refute the scripture provided that seems to suggest the inequality, or inferiortiy of women to men?

alright then- it didnt answer anything-

so ill go logically-
the subject was womens equality in the bible-



8 Wives, be SUBORDINATE to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord.

22 Slaves,OBEY your human masters in everything, not only when being watched, as currying favor, but in simplicity of heart, fearing the Lord.

as for women-
1 CORINTHIANS 14:35

And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is SHAMEFUL FOR WOMEN TO SPEAK in church.

1 TIMOTHY 2:11-12

Let a woman learn in SILENCE with all SUBMISSION. And I do NOT permit a woman to teach or to have AUTHORITY OVER A MAN, but to BE IN SILENCE.

1 Corinthians 11:3

But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

and, as i asked before for verses or scripture-

after you peruse these verses, are there verses to counter these?
to give equal status to women?

where are the scriptural equal rights?

Victoria Again;
1. My examples were to show that women took an active part in the ministry of the early church at a time when women in that part of the world were treated like they are today in predominantly Muslim countries: third class.
2. The many verses you quoted from Genesis in the OT were to confirm my position. Greek women at that time were even treated worse; they were made to wear Burqa like many of your sisters in Afghaistan, Pakistan and other places today.
3. Most of the Christian missionaries during the time of Paul were Jews and many wanted to incorporate some of the rituals and traditions of Judaism into the new religion. That explains the many vrses you put down about the status of women's hair.
4. As for Paul's incident along the road to Damascus,it was both , momentary deafness and a longer blndness.(Don't go down that road for your house is thinner than thin glass).
5. Jesus exhortation is for Christians not to discriminate againnst others. This is how Christians interpret it and that what counts as far as humanity is concerned. If you interpret it differently this could be because you are programmed by a religion that excludes the other, as your Allah said "Ye are the best Ummah in the world", and " Fight those who do not believe in Allah and His Prophet" meaning himself.

well, there you go mr mahfouz- exactly the kind of nonsensical off topic (and unecessarily ugly) comment i was referring to
i guess i hit a nerve with mr don there

no real refutation- just pointless anger and illogic

Victoria:

Since you are a muslim living in a non muslim country I would recommend you stay away from criticizing the inhabitants of the country. Seems to me you love to fight with them and use their ideas against them, all the while hiding your own beleifs (Al Taqqiya). WE know your beleifs are hostile to Christian beleifs as the Koran does nothing but invoke hatred and genocide towards non muslims (which includes Hindus and Buddhists). This is where your hostility comes from WE ALREADY KNOW. Keep disclosing your true feelings so that all westerners can see......

mr mahfouz-
sorry about that, i didnt mean to imply that you personally are incapable of a logical response- i meant you in a plural sense to the general posters- who dont seem in general to repsond to points made- but go off on other subjects- while never addressing or recognizing responses made.

it can certainly sound offensive if it seems to be directed at you, personally- it definitely is not.

mr mahfouz-

the whole text-
this is applicable ONLY to describe the realtionship betweeen baptized christians amongst themselves-
GALATIANS
27 For all of YOU WHO WERE BAPTIZED into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendant, heirs according to the promise.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

so, the saying is flanked before and after with references to THOSE IN CHRIST
and applies specifically to them- no all of mankind in any way

it is reinforced next chapter by this-
"here" being the christian community
CORINTHIANS

11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, 7 slave, free; but Christ is all and in all.

8 Wives, be SUBORDINATE to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord.


22 Slaves,OBEY your human masters in everything, not only when being watched, as currying favor, but in simplicity of heart, fearing the Lord.

as for women-
1 CORINTHIANS 14:35

And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is SHAMEFUL FOR WOMEN TO SPEAK in church.

1 TIMOTHY 2:11-12

Let a woman learn in SILENCE with all SUBMISSION. And I do NOT permit a woman to teach or to have AUTHORITY OVER A MAN, but to BE IN SILENCE.

1 Corinthians 11:3

But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Titus 2:3-5

The older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, OBEDIENT to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.

1 TIMOTHY 2:8-15

13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression; it was the woman who was deceived and became a SINNER. 15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
She is not to seek the role of the male, but role for which God created her.

GENESIS
The male is the first to be created (2:7). (firstborn)
The garden is prepared for him, and he is placed within it (2:8).
The MALE, NOT the female, is given the name borne by the human race as a whole: "Man" (1:26-27, 5:2).
God speaks to the male (2:16); he is the first to receive divine revelation and instruction.
The animals are brought for naming to the male, not the female (2:19-20).
The woman is made from the man, not the man from the woman (2:22).
The woman is also made FOR the man and brought to him. the man was not made for the woman (2:18, 22).
It is the man who speaks and makes a theological comment upon the woman’s creation, not vice versa (2:23).
It is the male who names the female, not the woman naming the man (2:23).

1 CORINTHIANS 11

4
Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered brings shame upon his head.
5
But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled brings shame upon her head, for it is one and the same thing as if she had had her head shaved.
6
For if a woman does not have her head veiled, she may as well have her hair cut off. But if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should wear a veil.
7
A man, on the other hand, should not cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.
8
For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;
9
nor was man created for woman, but woman for man;
10
for this reason a woman should have a sign of authority 6 on her head, because of the angels.
11
7 Woman is not independent of man or man of woman in the Lord.
12
For just as woman came from man, so man is born of woman; but all things are from God.
13
Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head unveiled?
14
Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears his hair long it is a disgrace to him,
15
whereas if a woman has long hair it is her glory, because long hair has been given (her) for a covering?
16
But if anyone is inclined to be argumentative, we do not have such a custom, nor do the churches of God.

WELL, i think it is fair to say that one cannot possibly be , for instance, a woman atheist and have this 'freedom' apply to her-

your example for equity only extends to Christians-
HOWEVER-

it is all pauline anyway!

and actually, the ONE verse you provided was specifically what the apostles had problems with paul anyway-

his decision to preach his brand of gospel to the uncicumcised caused a great rift with the apostles who were reluctant to accept his story anyway

not to mention the 3 SEPARATE and TOTALLY CONTRADICTIORY accounts of his conversion on the road to damascus-

did he see jesus(ata) and become deaf?
did he hear Jesus(ata) and become blind?

which was it?
but paul is another topic

anyway- the topic is equality of women and men in scripture-

o, BTW- of course there are arabs who are scientists.

and liberated- as to your question-
"Finished that report on the bible and social
justice????"

get serious-
do your own work to make your points- im hardly going to make your point for you-
if youre too lazy to make your own point-
you think im going to do it for you?????

mr mahfouz-
normally i never comment on other relgions

im dont have na interest in deconstructing or criticizing anothers belief system-
and ususally refrain from doing so-

well, i look forward to your response to the verses cited
(as i repsond specifically to verses you cited- i hope the effort will be reciprocated)

ususally my experience is people gloss over and ignore such efforts-
i would certainly be amazed if you actually addressed in a logical way-
i can always hope i guess
peace

Victoria:

The precepts of equality , justice and freedom are rooted in Christianity.The Apostle Paul said "There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free; there is not male and female; for all of you are one in Jesus Christ. (Gal. 3:27-28). Just compare Christan societies with your friends in Saudi Arabia and North Sudan.
As for women in Christianity let us mention few who worked with the Apostle Paul. Paul mentions Phoebe as a deacon (or minister) in the church of Cenchrae, and Paul's own patron, whom he entrusts with the task of carrying his letters to Rome (vv.1-2). And there is Prisca who was responsible for missionary work among the Gentiles and who supports a Christan congregation in her home(vv.3-4). Then there is Mary, a colleague of Paul's who works among the Romans(vv.6);there are also Tryphaena, Tryposa, and Persis, women whom Paul calls his "coworkers"in the gospel(vv.6,12). And there are Julia and the mother of Rufus and the sister of Nereus , all of whom appear to have a high profile in the community(vv.13,15). Most impressive of all there is Junia, a woman whom Paul calls foremost among the apostles" (v.7). This goes on and on.On the other hand the only women associated with your Apostle, as far as I can see, are his Harem.

I don't beleive Christians in Jordan are not persecuted. Gossip is not the truth. My Jordanian neighbors in the US have been complaining to me about their persecution and lack of rights thier families in Jordan suffer for years now. They do, however admit that Christians in Jordan do not suffer as much as their co-religionists in other muslim countries all over the world. Look at what the muslims are doing to the Christians in Sudan.

For shame. Please leave Islam and become civilized.

I don't beleive Christians in Jordan are not persecuted. Gossip is not the truth. My Jordanian neighbors in the US have been complaining to me about their persecution and lack of rights thier families in Jordan suffer for years now. They do, however admit that Christians in Jordan do not suffer as much as their co-religionists in other muslim countries all over the world. Look at what the muslims are doing to the Christians in Sudan.

For shame. Please leave Islam and become civilized.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Finished that report on the bible and social justice????

Also you noted:

"ive known alot of african priests and monks.
now of course it is possible that woman are becoming christian because they believe it confers equal rights for women- but christianity doesnt actually teach that anywhere"

Names of the priests and monks, country of origin??

With respect to women in religion, lets start with something contemporary:

Actually your former sister Muslim, Ayaan Hirsi Ali covers the Islamic situation in her book, Infidel.

The summary of said book explains why:

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."

ref: Washington Post book review.

With respect to treatment of women in the bible:
See Professors Crossan and Reed's review in their book, In Search of Paul, and Professor Bruce Chilton review in his book, Rabbi Paul.

Some bible excerpts:

Galatians 3:28

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

The New Testament gives examples of women in all sorts of ministry. This is a natural outcome of 'your sons and daughters shall prophesy' (Acts 2:17)

See also http://www.peterballard.org/wim.html

But as noted many times, as with Islam, there are significant flaws also in Christianity as noted below with added comments:

Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus. Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors (Paul, Mark, Matthew,Luke,John,Peter, James et al) to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

One of the glaring flaws in Christianity, is Paul's prediction of the imminent Second Coming. For our sakes, it never came about but his "belief" significantly aided monetary offerings.

Another demagogic article about *women situation*.Sophistry and empty words(below post).

The comparision is very simple.
Women in Afghanistan or women in France ? French women,the most beautiful ones in the world.
Women in Saudi Arabia or women in Sweden ? Swedish women.The civilized and pretty.Do you have objection ?
Women in islamic republic of Iran or in USA ?

Lets not forget,Protestantism has already surpassed,overcome the misogynism in the bible.It is indisputable.

What someones dont want to understand that *islam couldnt create the civilization*.Three mainstream islamic empires,Umayyads,Abbasids and Ottoman had failed to build *the civilized order*.Because,because *civilization* is based Human Rights,Rationality and Working,but,but,but islam rejects the working,human rihgts and rationality.
One who worship in arabic(although he/she is not arab) five times in a day can not work.
One who celebrates *the festival of beheading* that is plagiarized from the Jewish Legend,can not produce anything except terror.
Yes,yes you understand what I mean.Of course,of course you shall ban *the festival of beheading*,of course,yes,yes if you want to be the civilized men.

hello mr mahfouz, thanks for your answer.

ive known alot of african priests and monks.
now of course it is possible that woman are becoming christian because they believe it confers equal rights for women- but christianity doesnt actually teach that anywhere.

i always have a bit of a problem when people use anecdotes and behaviors to prove a religious point.

it has to be the other way around.

i could also use anecdotal incidences form the west here- american women are converting to islam in record numbers.

i am not familar with any cases of muslim women converting to christianity in the west, although im sure it happens somewhere.
but in no way comparable numberwise.

but the big difference here is the protection of religious beliefs in american society, and our economic situation.

i will put it to you, that many africans are not necessarily coming to christianity- but to westernization, and education, social and economic advantage and some degree of protection within their newfound fold that was not available in their cultural practice of islam.

one might surmise there were other extenuating circumstance - beyond religious doctrine-
which enabled their conversion.
and im positive that a muslim woman giving testimony that she is finding equality in christianity, more than delights her new friends and protectors.

i think its a deeper hope the westerners bring to the africans beyond Jesus(ata).

a hope of inclusion in western society, and its benefits- even the possibilty of escaping an oppressive system.

the priests and monks ive encountered (alot of them came to study at duquesne university in pittsburgh- where im from) all had the same thing in common with why they took up vocations- and that was education benefit (and ultimately escape which they acomplished)

now ive read the bible and studied it for many many years

there are no exhortations for social equality in it

as i asked before- (and apparently was not answered)
for the anonymous poster to present the verses from the bible to support their statement that the freedoms in america are bible based.

there are very many places in the bible that make distinctions between the sexes- but always to the disadvantage of the woman.

the bible even states that a woman should not speak!!!!

nowhere are any women represented as lawmakers, leaders, thinkers intellectual beings.

nowhere in the bible are women encouraged to think, use or develop their intelligence or strive for equality.

not a jot or tittle of a line

even one of the biggest female heroines of the bible, esther- uses her intelligence-(but it is actually cunning) but that intelligence is subordinated by her use of her sexuality to accomplish her goal of saving the jewish people.

i have no doubt that african women , being treated with respect by western cultured christians- will automatically assume that it is the religion that led to the equality-

but it is just not so.

the religion has been shaped to the ideology of western freedom- and if you talk to christians who really study and follow the bible, they will be the first to tell you that women are not accorded equal rights.

so ill add that to the former challenge-

can anyone find any exhortations to equality of races- etc in the bible?
and ill add can anyone point to any affirmations of the equality of women?

i already know the answer- so i know it wont be responded to- especially clearly.

but i think it will be a good education for people who assume those things are there- to discover their assumption are incorrect- and maybe thell learn alittle about what it actually DOES say.

that liberated- is why im not going to "google" anything

besides- im not going to do someone elses homework for them to prove their point for them

again to recap-
the "witnesses" of the women- are responses to former mysogynist treatment by their own conutrymen-

but becoming christian is going to change the misogynists to womens libbers?

it seems unlikely- when the dust settles and the westerners move on with their stats- misogyny will be easily replace with christian doctrine, which actually firmly SUPPORTS and encourages it.

look at christian nigeria

In jordan where I come from christian jordanians can build churches and nobody would complain, same goes for christians in kuwait, UAE, qatar, tunisia, morroco, aljeria, and many more arabic countries. In the US and europe if american muslims want to build a mosque their neighbours have town meetings to protest and curtial the proposed building, in some cases, people organise pig races next door to proposed building as a deterant.
Can someone from the civilised world explain this?
Oh and no name calling becasue that makes you a sick person if you do!

Thanks

You are funny Anon, Anon, Anon.

You are trying to say Muslims don't play the "poor me" card?

HA! Everyone knows better by now. Everyone knows The Al Kitman (deception) of the Ummah (muslim community.

Who raped who? The muslims did not rape Christian and Jewish lands starting from Muhammed's first Jihad at the Battle of Badr and rape pillage and destroy Christians and Jews until his barbarian mujahadeen imposed Islam all over North Africa and the Middle East? Did they not steal inventions from the conquered non muslims and claim them as their own? Did Omar Al Khataab not institute the Pact of Omar and oppress non muslims. Wasn't it Omar that made stoning of women in Islam legal (halaal) or was that Uthman.....well it is here in my notes that I use when teaching Islam to law enforcement agencies.

Anon, Anon, Anon,

After all your Islamic chest beating, it still comes down to this famous quote:

"Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe !!!!!"

Palestinian Man
You complain that Americans "encourage pig races to discourage Muslims" from building mosques in their country. Tell me how many churches are in Kuwait, Sharga, Bahrain, Qatar Yemen and Saudi Arabia combined. I tell you. Zilch!. That does not mean there are no Christians there but those countries have laws against the construction of places of worship for non Muslims. As a Palestinian shouldn't you be more concerned about the Palestinian problem and means and ways to overcome your plight than to worry about the building of mosques in the West? Yours is the type of mentality that got your people where they are now.

Hey Anonymous"

"Anonymous:

"Has it ever occured to you that the non muslims living in the middle east are living under Islamic dominance and they have been forced to assimilate for 1400 years and that may be why they have some of the same cultural habbits and traditions that the muslims do?"

Are you going to play poor little victim here??? Is that your strategy? It wont work - you might think you could get away with it - but you cant. See - no one has forced non-Muslims to be anything they dont want to be. The fanatic Muslim governments dont even want them around...let alone assimilate. You have enough places to go without playing the "poor me" card. So dont play it. Muslims dont.

"How funny you think we are so stupid that we do not understand these things."

How foolish of you to think that you can manipulate words and I wont see it. Really...get a grip!

"It is just like Tim said: You are practicing your own personal version of Islam because you live in the US. Your mother and father have freedoms because the US GAVE THOSE TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY and these freedoms are fundamentals in Christianity which is what the US is founded on."

Are you kidding me with this? Where do you think you came from? I know for a fact I am probably speaking to some German/Irish/Italian/French/Spanish mix of some sort and and ALL OF YOUR ANCESTORS came to this country from another. How dare you pretend as if YOU have anything to do with what my family does or doesnt do. Your ancestors were the ones who raped this land! You are the only one who pays taxes here? Are you the only one in your own eyes who works hard in this country? How narcissistic! To think that you are GIVING anyone anything. PUH-LEEZE!

"You are being "Christianized" subliminally by the messages and influences you receive from your co-workers, neighbors, media etc"

Please dont wish that upon me. Like I said before - my first responsibility is towards Islam. It has been and always will be. I am a Muslim first and whatever I want AFTER that. Read that and understand it. There is no such thing as a personal version of Islam. You dont custom make your religion. It is the way it is. And you have conveniently ignroed the actions of Clinton...predictable.

9/11 has exposed all the hypocracy about tolerance in western society. Bigotry against western muslims is abvious and thriving, as a proof listen to right wing radios hosts and their callers.
On the other hand, the west claims muslim countries are not tolerant of minority religions which is a total lie, here are examples, in areas where there is no western armies involved in OCCUPATION like in jordan, christians are living great life, they can build churches and no body says a word, in the US if muslims want to build a mosque people go to city meetings to oppose the mosque and some have pig races as a deterant. christians are not experiencing bigotry in kuwait, qatar, oman, united arab emirates,aljeria, tunisia, morroco, libya, even in occupied palestine, palestinains live together with no bigotry agianst christian palestinains. These were only examples of which there are many more, Ofcourse Jewish propaganda in western media paints all muslim countries as oppressing christians but that is absolute lie.
On the other hand, look at the bigotry against western muslims in the CIVILIZED WORLD.

Victoria
This is the first time I direct a comment to a blogger, and that is because you directed a question to me.
I am aware that Mr. Eboo meant the "scientific method". There are no Arab scientists now, and those you refer to in the distant are mostly Syrians, Berber and Persians who lived within the confines of the Arab Empire. What those did was mainly to translate the works of the Greeks.
As for your insinuating that Christianity berates women, every year since 1970 over 6 million people in just Africa convert from Islam to Christianity.The most common refrain in the women converts witnessing is the disrespect that their former religion accorded them and the equality that the new religion bestowed upon them.

halozcel, Do not forget all the murder beginning with your prophet that Islam has given us.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Simply "google" "Old Testament" "Social Justice" as starters. Ditto for "New Testament" "Social Justice". Give us your full report after you have read the many references.

now ill agree with the anonymous poster that america has been culturalized in a christian mentality- but my agreement breaks there-

i can think of no where in the OT or NT where there is any mention of social freedoms or rights-

even Jesus(may god bless him) said he came to the lost sheep of the house of israel-
a divisive and separatist statement-
hardly an endorsement of the equality of man(let alone woman)

if anonymous comes out of the shadows maybe they could offer a few references?

this is a new one on me-

i dont even think the usury based me-first mentality of capitalism is compatible with true christianity-

the intentions of the deist forefathers in their framing of the constitution is another discussion altogether

Alice in Wonderland.

*Scientific method being developed by a muslim*(where is the islamic M.I.T.)
*The first university established by the muslims*(does muslim know what university is).
*America discovered by the muslims*(where was the mosque).

*If you want to learn more about islam and its influence in science*(!)
Everybody knows *what islam is* better than Alice.

A leading opponent of plans to build Europe's largest mosque in east London has seen a chilling "obituary" for him posted on the internet.

The film on video-sharing website YouTube is entitled In memory of Councillor Alan Craig and contains pictures of him with his wife and two young daughters.

It was apparently posted in retaliation for his opposition to the mosque.

Mr Craig has now contacted police in fear of his family's safety and demanded that the video be taken down.

Islamic group Tablighi Jamaat wants to open the 12,000-capacity "mega-mosque" in Newham near the main 2012 Olympic site.

The FBI has described the group as "a recruiting ground" for al Qaeda, which it denies.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=491977&in_page_id=1770

Mischka

Has it ever occured to you that the non muslims living in the middle east are living under Islamic dominance and they have been forced to assimilate for 1400 years and that may be why they have some of the same cultural habbits and traditions that the muslims do? How funny you think we are so stupid that we do not understand these things. It is just like Tim said: You are practicing your own personal version of Islam because you live in the US. Your mother and father have freedoms because the US GAVE THOSE TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY and these freedoms are fundamentals in Christianity which is what the US is founded on. You are being "Christianized" subliminally by the messages and influences you receive from your co-workers, neighbors, media etc.........You are free in a Christian Secular country.....

Mischka

Has it ever occured to you that the non muslims living in the middle east are living under Islamic dominance and they have been forced to assimilate for 1400 years and that may be why they have some of the same cultural habbits and traditions that the muslims do? How funny you think we are so stupid that we do not understand these things. It is just like Tim said: You are practicing your own personal version of Islam because you live in the US. Your mother and father have freedoms because the US GAVE THOSE TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY and these freedoms are fundamentals in Christianity which is what the US is founded on. You are being "Christianized" subliminally by the messages and influences you receive from your co-workers, neighbors, media etc.........You are free in a Christian Secular country.....

Hey Eboo, The following story is taking place in the West. What is going on? Most non-Muslim Britons believe in pluralism but it seems the British Muslims do not. This is what Muslims are praying for in the USA. True Qur'an following Hadith loving Muslims want Sharia law for the whole world.

"A British imam's daughter is living in fear of her life under police protection after she received death threats from her family for converting to Christianity." http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3006561.ece

Tim -

"Religion and culture are tied at the hip."

No - they are NOT. Pakistani culture and Indian culture are similar but then again VERY different. Pakistani Muslims have barely anything in common with Sudanese Muslims aside from the religion. Please dont tell me you really believe the above to be true - its absurd so I will ignore it as a typo.

"Many believe that religion defines culture."

Many would mean - YOU?

"The culture of India was certainly defined by Hindu beliefs."

Ummmm...I would beg to differ. It seems you dont know much about this topic. You are at a disadvantage. I will give you an opportunity to do your research and come back when you are ready.

"Congratulations, you live in America so you practice your own personal version of Islam."

Here we go again...my personal version of Islam...there is no such thing. I am so sorry to disappoint you. The Islam that I practice is in accordance to the Qur'an.

"That is because our culture is based on the tolerance and kindness expressed by Jesus Christ."

What???????????? Are you kidding me with this? Hmmm...so was our dear President Clinton practicing tolerance and kindness expressed by Jesus Christ when he was in the Oval Office with Monica Lewinsky? You should use her as a poster child...you might get more converts that way.

"He never said to kill the unbelievers but this is what Mohamed said."

Our Prophet (pbuh) never said to kill unbelievers...you are still alive arent you?

"The true Islam is what is practiced in Iran and Saudi Arabia."

Actually - its not. I hate to say it. They are Muslim countries only because majority of their population is Muslim. Thats it.

"You should become a Christian because you are probably closer to us than to them. Just something to consider as well as your eternal salvation."

Salvation...what do you mean by this word? If I convert to Christianity and believe that Jesus is God's kid and since he already died for all my sins - I dont have to work so hard to be good?

I dont want to get into this with you. I have Christian friends, I respect them and I will not be drawn into a senseless argument by some uninformed wierdo.

"Thank you and good luck."

You are very welcome and good luck to you too. It sounds like you need it more then I do.

hi jacob- i see you're excited about mitt romeny's speech today (the kennedy quote reference ,"ask not")

i thought it would interest you to know that khalil gibran first said that in the 20s in a letter to mary haskell in the 20s

i figured you'd like that bit of info

mr mahfouz-
it is more likely he would be referring to facts such as scientifc method being developed by a muslim-

i myself assumed he meant hard science- not a limited religious law science

if you want to learn more about islam and its influence in science, go to the science in religion question-

theres alot of good info there

how could you not know that?

Even though Mr.Ebo is not an Arab and I doubt if he even speaks Arabic yet he has somehow internalized one of the most distinctive traits of Arabs;to be swayed by ideas rather than facts. I know because I am one. Mentioning tolerace with Islam and science with Arabs is laughable, unless by science he means jurisprudence; the study of Muslim religious texts. Citing Mr.Blair to make his point did not impress me any more than did Blair's earlier thesis for dragging his country into the Iraqi quagmire.

Mischka, Mischka, Mischka,

You obviously belong to a very small minority of fortunate Islamic women. And why is that? Because you live in the USA.

But your Islamic brainwashing continues to exude from every one of your words. You know how to escape. Hopefully, you saved the Five Step Program to "Deflaw" the koran thereby freeing yourself from 1400 years of rules established by the plagiarizing scribes of an illiterate, warmongering, womanizing and hallucinating Arabic nomad.

Mischka,

It is impossible to reform Islam by empty words and palaver.

*Islam and Science*-this is a reality-accept it or get out.
What is the *reality* in Yemen,Afghanistan,Saudi Arabia,Indonesia,Libya,Bengladash etc.
Is there any islamic university,such as Massachusetts Institute of Technology,in any islamic country ?
Is there any world-wide famous university in any islamic land(except Al Azhar,center of fanaticism)

Mischka,
You should face the reality of Islam.
Islam is the cult of violence which is based on stone age mentality,nothing else.
Islam is SAudi Arabia,Fear Kingdom,not what some talewriters try to descibe
Islam is the islamic republic Iran.
Islam is Afghanistan,not *Alice in Wonderland*Utopia.

Religion and culture are tied at the hip. Many believe that religion defines culture. The culture of India was certainly defined by Hindu beliefs. Congratulations, you live in America so you practice your own personal version of Islam. That is because our culture is based on the tolerance and kindness expressed by Jesus Christ. He never said to kill the unbelievers but this is what Mohamed said. The true Islam is what is practiced in Iran and Saudi Arabia. You should become a Christian because you are probably closer to us than to them. Just something to consider as well as your eternal salvation. Thank you and good luck.

Tim -

"Eboo says: soft power emphasize what we are about. Well that's what Islam is about whether you want to call it a perversion, true Islam or whatever - it is about non-pluralistic societies that live under middle age law ruled by religious leaders and with no rights for women."

I am a Muslim woman. My first priority is being a Muslim woman and then being an American. The rules of my life are set according to Islam. My husband is even more religious then I. He has never stopped me from doing anything. I went to school, I hold a job, same with my sisters and my mother. My father has never stopped my mother from doing anything. She doesnt walk behind him and he doesnt yell at her. Islam does not limit women...its the culture they live in that is limiting them. Middle Easterners - whether they are Christian or Muslim - are very sensitive about their women. That has nothing to do with Islam.

Culture and religion are two very different things.

True Islam is about as hard to theoretically define as true Christianity or true Hindu or true anything else. What is true democracy? But you can make some opinions regarding what they are all about by the way Muslims live and interact with others. Iran and Saudi Arabia may not be true Islam, by somebody's definition, but they are Islamic nations. I don't see much pluralism practiced in these most Islamic of societies. In fact I don't see much of anything in these societies that would make Islam appealing. Anyone there who would tell the leaders of these nations that they are not practicing true Islam would probably be in trouble. Eboo says: soft power emphasize what we are about. Well that's what Islam is about whether you want to call it a perversion, true Islam or whatever - it is about non-pluralistic societies that live under middle age law ruled by religious leaders and with no rights for women. That is the soft power that they project - and in my mind, that is true Islam. You will know them by their fruits.

Haloczel:

"*It(Quran) extols science and knowledge* Tony Blair"

"Islam and Science" - this is a reality - accept it or get out.

"The Caliph Omar burnt down the biggest library in ancient world in Alexandria."

Actually, he didnt. Is this the way you want to defend yourself? With lies? Typical.

"For Allah's love,could you write any scientific islamic country(if exists)"

Is there such a thing as a scientific country? Can you please attempt intelligence? You are obviously an immigrant and dont have much of a grasp for English.

"He(Tony Blair) is clear that those extremists are a perversion of Islam."

Yes, they are...must you repeat the blog in order to understand it? It helps to read out loud too if you have a learning disability.

"Who are those extremists ? Al Qaida,Hezbullah,Muslim Brothers,PAS in islamofascist Malaysia or Leshgery in India and Pakistan."

Anyone who disregards the Qur'an and twists its meanings to benefit him/herself.

You are so predictable and boring Hal...goodness...its most tiresome.

CCNL -

My birth certificate is from Chicago, IL. My passprt is blue. I am a USA Citizen and an American Muslim.

"What USA citizens are against:

The koran!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

No, we are not.

Hang'Em High,Clint Eastwood.Super Cowboy movie.

*It(Quran) extols science and knowledge* Tony Blair
Islam and Science.Super Comedy movie.
-The Caliph Omar burnt down the biggest library in ancient world in Alexandria.
-The Observatory of Taqiyyaddin had been burnt by the islamists for saying *you can not meddle the work of Allah*
-The culture of Sabean astronomers(written in Quran) had been exterminated by the muslims.
For Allah's love,could you write any scientific islamic country(if exists)

He(Tony Blair) is clear that those extremists are a perversion of Islam.
Who are those extremists ? Al Qaida,Hezbullah,Muslim Brothers,PAS in islamofascist Malaysia or Leshgery in India and Pakistan.
In which islamic countries,muslims demonstrade chanting *down with al qaida* or *down with hezbullah*,on the contrary,the muslims in all over the world demonstrade supporting the so-called extremists.

Unamerican-defence and advocate to American Constitution,Human Rights and Civilization.
American-bogeywoman in black wrap,cavemen,*two women equals one man*...
It fits...,it fits...

Anonymous:

what does this mean: "true islam does not recognize pluralism. fix your own backyard first"?

TRUE Islam does recognize pluralism. The Islam you see all over the world - does not.

Also, please tell me something: what backyard are you talking about? Tell me, where is Eboo's backyard? And your own? This would be interesting to know.

What USA citizens are against:

The koran!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What USA citizens are for:

"Deflawing" the koran!!!!!!!!!!!!

i.e. Our Motto,

"Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

true islam does not recognize pluralism. fix your own backyard first.

Well, in my mind ... Pluralism does not exists without the the Constitution that protects the right to free speech and freedom of religion. The hard power in the USA constitution is backed up by our courts and enforced by the rule of law. That is why pluralism flourishes, because of hard power. Hard power is also used in Islamic nations (Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc) to achieve the opposite. The rule of law is involved in both cases but one law is enlighten law and the other, Sharia, is a hold over from the middle ages. Pluralistic societies don't exist without the protection in the law of the land, Hard Power.

I like this essay Eboo - very much.

"What if we had taken the considerable energy spent on arguments over what we should call the enemy (terrorists, Islamists, criminals, Islamo-Fascists, etc ad nauseum) and instead come to a consensus over what we collectively believe in, and put our resources into building that."

Well put.

just seconds ago i wrote a post on the islam and violence question elaborating on how the nature of war has changed in america

the pendulum has started turning back to such a state that it is now possible to use terms like soft power without being called unamerican.

as mr patel points out so eloquently- it is the essential americanism

the shootemup cowboy days will take a break for a cycle or two.

just in time