All Comments (54)

Romney is a Mormon, he is not Mormonism and he is not responsible for behaving in any way his conscience does not direct him. ultimately he will answetr to god and to god alone, certainly not to an ill-informed blogger.

Jacob Jozevz - your post is religious drivel and 99% wrong.

>the newspaper that Dorothy Day founded in the >1930s and served as the voice of her >movement...

The Catholic Worker is still being published by the New York City CW community.

Eboo Patel presents himself as a brittle and paranoid individual. I say to him: Relax and read, not polemicize:

Here's the link to Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week:

http://www.terrorismawareness.org/islamo-fascism-awareness-week/

It is with disappointment that I write this note. First I was not born a mormon. I became a mormon 30 years ago. I was once one among many who had alot of bad and negative things to say about the mormons. In 1956 a great storm devastated my country. So much so that there was practically nothing left on the island. The first help to arrive on the island was one by the mormons. And no, they did not take care of the mormons but infact took care of everyone on the island. This they did for over a month and continued on for about 6 months. The US of A did not arrive until three weeks later. As a practicing mormon, I have been to many unsolicited missions to many different areas to include OK during different disasters. In fact, during one of those disasters, a reporter did the mormons the greatest favor when she announced during her news report that there were only two churches represented during the two weeks she was there. These two religions were the Mormons and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It is important to note that these two were of the same origins. The mormons are infact the same sect as the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I know with out a doubt that the Mormons were in New Orleans during Karina and during all the ones that happened during the last 50 years of my life time. And you can take that to the bank. If all of you who have any doubt, do your home work prior to opening your trap. You will find that history will say otherwise of the mormons. I recommend you read the book for your self and then ask GOD if you believe in one, and you will have an answer for your self instead of taking others comments as fact. Those who try to destroy the book do so for they have a lot to lose. They are those who make good money making sure they do not lose their livelihood.

Let it also be known also that Church Prophet has and consistently made it clear that each individual mormon must stand and vote with his or her heart. They do not encourage any one to vote republican.

I for one am a Democrat who is about to become a third party due to many things going on with the two main party system.

By the way I have been asked by both republicans and democrats to run on their tickets and have refused since they do not support the voice of the people but their own parties. I belive I speak for thousands if not millions of us who would like the government to support the people insteat of the special interest groups and the ultra rich of this great nation who live off of the blood of the poor who consistently die and spend their blood, sweat, and tears for this great nation.

For now a Mormon, Democrat, Retired Military, and a US PATRIOT.

It is with disappointment that I write this note. First I was not born a mormon. I became a mormon 30 years ago. I was once one among many who had alot of bad and negative things to say about the mormons. In 1956 a great storm devastated my country. So much so that there was practically nothing left on the island. The first help to arrive on the island was one by the mormons. And no, they did not take care of the mormons but infact took care of everyone on the island. This they did for over a month and continued on for about 6 months. The US of A did not arrive until three weeks later. As a practicing mormon, I have been to many unsolicited missions to many different areas to include OK during different disasters. In fact, during one of those disasters, a reporter did the mormons the greatest favor when she announced during her news report that there were only two churches represented during the two weeks she was there. These two religions were the Mormons and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It is important to note that these two were of the same origins. The mormons are infact the same sect as the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I know with out a doubt that the Mormons were in New Orleans during Karina and during all the ones that happened during the last 50 years of my life time. And you can take that to the bank. If all of you who have any doubt, do your home work prior to opening your trap. You will find that history will say otherwise of the mormons. I recommend you read the book for your self and then ask GOD if you believe in one, and you will have an answer for your self instead of taking others comments as fact. Those who try to destroy the book do so for they have a lot to lose. They are those who make good money making sure they do not lose their livelihood.

Let it also be known also that Church Prophet has and consistently made it clear that each individual mormon must stand and vote with his or her heart. They do not encourage any one to vote republican.

I for one am a Democrat who is about to become a third party due to many things going on with the two main party system.

By the way I have been asked by both republicans and democrats to run on their tickets and have refused since they do not support the voice of the people but their own parties. I belive I speak for thousands if not millions of us who would like the government to support the people insteat of the special interest groups and the ultra rich of this great nation who live off of the blood of the poor who consistently die and spend their blood, sweat, and tears for this great nation.

For now a Mormon, Democrat, Retired Military, and a US PATRIOT.

Hrolfer:

"God is white, republican and lives in Salt Lake City." A joke of course but told everywhere by mormons about themselves. (Ever hear it? Of course you have.)

Yes I have heard it...though never once from a Mormon (you don't have to believe me...after all, I'm just cyber bytes to the outside world). In my years upon years in the church (and I am not without an uncritical eye), I have only on the rarest of occasions heard politics preached from the pulpit (either re: gay marriage or those random occasions where the local loose cannon goes off about their pet topioc)

In any case, you have given us absolutely no reason to buy your arguments. ON the other hand, I can point to James E. Faust (a member of the First Presidency and prominent Democrat in his day), Hugh B. Brown (another member of the same body--a valiant fighter for civil rights even when others in the same said body were skiddish about them), and Harry Reid (though I would never point to him as a model spokesperson for a MOrmon democrat).

The weight of evidence and past experience is against you. Look to any public statement by the church...you will not find Republicans mentioned anywhere (though there was, arguably, one slip of the tongue by President Hinckley--a slip for which he quickly apologized). Please do read up on what you claim before you start making these blanket accusations.

Mormon leadership and most of its members are right-wing neocons who blindly support the war and oppose government welfare. Although, they take care of their own, this is the Church of Ezra Taft Benson. Romeny has now flip-flopped toward this neocon side and this is what we can expect from him, too. The book mentioned cherry picked Mormon scripture for its own agenda much as Dobson, Roberston, Craig, Vitter et. al. cherry pick scripture from the Bible for theirs.

Mormon leadership and most of its members are right-wing neocons who blindly support the war and oppose government welfare. Although, they take care of their own, this is the Church of Ezra Taft Benson. Romeny has now flip-flopped toward this neocon side and this is what we can expect from him, too. The book mentioned cherry picked Mormon scripture for its own agenda much as Dobson, Roberston, Craig, Vitter et. al. cherry pick scripture from the Bible for theirs.

George Sutton, Russel, et.al.
Knuckle dragging? No. Either weakminded (stupid), ignorant, immoral or a combination thereof.

Nothing could be further from truth than what you have written.

Your church (actually a cult) does teach politics.

"God is white, republican and lives in Salt Lake City." A joke of course but told everywhere by mormons about themselves. (Ever hear it? Of course you have.)

They teach religion? Not quite. They teach that if you support any other than the republicans that you failed to drink the kool-aid and better get back on board or else.....

Please stop insulting us with all of you garbage.

The book cherry picked Mormon scripture for its own agenda. Although Mormons do take care of their own poor, their social agenda is that of the neocons and other Christian extremists. Their politics are right-wing and support war and oppose welfare. This article is 180 degrees misleading.

Hello Eboo Patel,
It is not clear yet why You Mention-" Mormon Social Radicals?"
All through of your article, you are thoroughly mixed up and create a holy smoke, where you can not see your self or lost your rationality.
But one thing is clear to us, that Mormons are quite advanced in their cultural activities and and their society norms and dynamicity, and these qualities are seriously lagging in Islam and Muslim culture.
For instance Mormons don't teach Hatred but Your religion does.
Mormons are quite tolerant to other faith holders, and they do not act [ on the basis of their faith] and kill other faith holders nor do they massacre innocent civilians of all kinds, be christians Muslims or non Muslims. But unfortunate enough that your kind just do the opposite.
I do admit that Mormons are not kind about their women of their rights, but their women folks are in better position and enjoy some judicial protection from Nation's Judicial System. However in Your "Islamic World", your women are considered slave and bonded labour, do you want refute my statement??
On passing by you mentioned that in India, Muslim suffered domestic violence's By Hindus?? But you forgot to mention how Hindus were totally rooted out from Lahore and Karchi just after the partition and I call that Genocide. Your Islamic Zealots and Islamic terrorists- killed innocent Hindu pundits in thousands in Kashmir, and others are now languishing in various parts of India as a refugee? Again I call it Genocide.
Here your scholastic exercise is not impressive enough to impresses or inspires us.
Anther very important point- America is great, Magnanimous and extremely tolerant to Different Faiths and faith holders now living in this great country. Till to day- She is tolerating people like you and your branded religion, and in same token Mormons are been tolerated. The fundamental reason of such tolerance is- America believes Humanity, and wants to make Religious global village, where every one, irrespective of his color, race and religion. So Mr. Eboo Patel, learn and live, and desist from spreading Miss information's and misguide thoughts. God bless America. Amen.

"Back before the national Democratic Party decided to make unlimited abortion and hatred of the armed forces its litmus tests"

OH PLEASE!! WHAT A SYCOPHANTIC PISSANT REPUBLICAN MORMON MORON!

This is probably the silliest board of all time, but the most fun! It attracts the fish into the barrel, so we can shoot them!

But all these commentators are ignoring the power of magic underwear!

I think Jozevz et al speaks for all Mormons, and enough said!

Dr Patel, Thank you for giving your readers a well considered piece to think about, something that few here have demonstrated they deserve.

Dr Patel, Thank you for giving your readers a well considered piece to thnk about, soemthing that few here hacve deonstrated they deserve.

I consider myself a devout, practicing Mormon and always have been. As to Mitt Romney, I have a natural strong inclination to support a fellow member of our faith, but I find his militaristic views (increase military) and human rights perspective (double Guantanomo) not only troubliing but grossly inconsistent with the foundations of our Christian faith. Will Van Wagenen spoke at our book club several weeks ago and I have read the first publication of the Mormon Worker which I believe is aligned to the highest aspirations of our faith that demands of us in our scriptures to "denounce war and proclaim peace" and to not let any beggar put up his "petition in vain." I am confident that this new publication will continue to attract support even in this reddest of red states.

Whoever wrote that last post is stark raving mad.

While it is true that the Church does not "officially" hold "political positions" (except on Gay rights and the ERA and other social issues)

it is ALSO true that Mormons are overwhelmingly Republican. Utah is the most republican state in the Union.

That's fine. It's a free country. But to represent the mass of Mormons as anything but republican/conservative is ludicrous, a few democratic congressmen to the contrary.

And a social radical, with or without a brain, is a very rare Mormon bird.

"The Mormons were credited with completing none... zero.
I feel that the Mormons are very good at taking care of their own, and sending kids on evangelistic missions, but pathetic at taking care of the unknown that are lost in the cracks of life.
The Catholic church seems to be the best at caring for the least of these among us."

I'm afraid that this statement flat-out incorrect. I hope that it is the product of misinformation rather than blatant deception. You lambast the faith on ONE article--an article that was probably rushed to press where the reporters weren't particularly concerned over theological fault lines.

You ignore Church efforts to provide tools to homebuilders in Lousiana (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645196153,00.html); the Church's donation of 10,000 days of labor, how no one was on the ground before the Mormons ( http://www.deseretmorningnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660215305,00.html). Of course, i could burden this blog with much about the Church's global humanitarian efforts, but I think you get the point.

As a devout member of the LDS church, I find Mr. Vanwagenen's ideas interesting, and do not disagree with the content of his argument. However, I do disagree with whether government ought to be involved.

And to respond to a point made by Patrick re: LDS church being racist...The government did not force the LDS church to alter its policy. In fact, any such government action would unconstitutional on First Amendment and other grounds. Read statement from LDS church leaders in the 50s and 60s supporting the civil rights movement, and read a recent discourse from current Church President Gordon B. Hinckley re: the evils of racism. The Church never banned blacks from being members (indeed look at Africa where droves of Africans are joining the LDS church). The LDS church restricted the extension of the "priesthood" to blacks, and that was for, to my understanding, a misinterpretation of the notion of lineage. At any rate, I'm glad to see Mormons that are not Republican. We need them.

shorter RGILLESPIE:
"things i didn't read about in a solitary news article must not have happened, therefore mormons suck."

several family members of mine who are mormon participated in NOLA cleanup and reconstruction efforts as part of an organized church effort.

btw, the catholic church seems to be "best" at a few too many things, RGILLESPIE.

I read recently an article that looked at the homes built in New Orleans as a result of Katrina and the religious organizations that were responsible for the job getting done. Some denominations had constructed over 1,000 homes. The Mormons were credited with completing none... zero.
I feel that the Mormons are very good at taking care of their own, and sending kids on evangelistic missions, but pathetic at taking care of the unknown that are lost in the cracks of life.
The Catholic church seems to be the best at caring for the least of these among us.

I read recently an article that looked at the homes built in New Orleans as a result of Katrina and the religious organizations that were responsible for the job getting done. Some denominations had constructed over 1,000 homes. The Mormons were credited with completing none... zero.
I feel that the Mormons are very good at taking care of their own, and sending kids on evangelistic missions, but pathetic at taking care of the unknown that are lost in the cracks of life.
The Catholic church seems to be the best at caring for the least of these among us.

Most politicans worship the god of ambition.

Romney is a Mormon like Richard Nixon was a Quaker. Many Christian evangelicals are really adherents of a crude Social Darwinism. If the Catholic Church were sincere about "life" it would excommunicate any Catholic politican who votes for war, including financing, just as it threatens to do for abortion supporters.

I wish a god really DID exist just to see the expression on these hypocrites' faces when he would wake them up for judgement.

Most politicans worship the god of ambition.

Romney is a Mormon like Richard Nixon was a Quaker. Many Christian evangelicals are really adherents of a crude Social Darwinism. If the Catholic Church were sincere about "life" it would excommunicate any Catholic politican who votes for war, including financing, just as it threatens to do for abortion supporters.

I wish a god really DID exist just to see the expression on these hypocrites' faces when he would wake them up for judgement.

My experience's of the Mormon Church is the LDS Church was racist u ntil the government required the LDS to change their memebrshipo guidelines; allow blacks to join LDS; which of course Blacks do not want.

I would consider the Mormons to be social conservatives like the evangelics, only the Mormons believe in Joseph Smith's intrepretation and not other's intrerpretation of the Bible.

Patrick

Whatever,

However you view it, Eboo continues to avoid coming to grips with the flaws of Islam. Since repetition is a great form of education, educate yourself by reviewing again the following and please, please show where there are flaws in this synopsis:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton in his book, Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus' life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? Islamic terror Shiite theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the "Wannabee" Sunnis of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an on-line Hindu site)- "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

Whatever,

However you view it, Eboo continues to avoid coming to grips with the flaws of Islam. Since repetition is a great form of education, educate yourself by reviewing again the following and please, please show where there are flaws in this synopsis:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton in his book, Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus' life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? Islamic terror Shiite theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the "Wannabee" Sunnis of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an on-line Hindu site)- "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

I am an active Mormon, an active duty soldier on my second tour in Iraq (this time a 15 month-er) and a VERY strong social Democrat. I do find myself in the minority, though. MOST of my fellow Mormon friends are very Republican, and very strong social conservatives. I never stop laughing when I hear southern evangelicals question Romney's social conservative stance. For 35 years of my life, many people have poked fun at my squeeky clean life style. Heck, I don't even watch rated R movies... and now I blink in amazement at ignorant evangelicals who question Mormon values. I served an LDS mission in the Bible Belt of Virginia, and the same suspicious people that slammed the doors in my face back then are slamming the doors on Romney out of ignorance. If evangelicals ever got past their religious bigotry, they would be shocked to find that Romney is exactly what the doctor ordered for them. Thank You evangelicals, your ignorance has given this Mormon Democrat the last laugh! I don't want Romney because I KNOW how socially conservative he is!

Those who know the Mormon church as I do, know that the church is a religious organization, not a political party, and that it teaches that its members must make up their own minds on political matters.

The confusion on this issue stems, I think, from the fact that Utah, the home base of the Mormon church, is located in the west-central part of the United States, which has always been, and especially is now, culturally and politically conservative. Thus, observers from outside Utah, who notice the state's politics, make the incorrect assumption that the state's conservative politics is due to its predominant religion. In fact, the state's conservatism is due to its geography.

I know this because, due to my employment, I have lived in many different parts of the U.S. and the world. When I lived in Oklahoma, most members of the church where I attended were Democrats at heart who, like most Oklahomans, voted Republican in federal elections. In Louisiana, most members of the Mormon church were very much Democrats, the exceptions being Mormons who had moved to Louisiana from Utah, Idaho or Arizona. In Boston, it was the same, with transplants from Utah, Idaho and Arizona being the exception from the general (Democrat) rule. When we lived in England, the vast majority of church members were Laborites who disliked Margaret Thatcher and her Tory Party. One church member, who was as active and faithful a Mormon as one could find, was an old-style communist, who disliked Tony Blair's "New Labor" because it had struck from the Labor Party Charter the "government as the owner of the means of production" paragraph, which had been so dear to her and her late husband's hearts.

I could go on, but my point is that the Mormon Church teaches religion, while it expects its members to apply their religion to their daily lives -- including their political preferences -- as they see fit.

It's true that LDS doctrine supports a wide range of political positions. However, it's unfortunate that this article highlights Will VanWagenen, whom I know personally and with whom I have spent many hours in discussion. This young man is a mediocre intellect who epitomizes the inconsistency, contradiction, and even hypocrisy which confines the hopes for any kind of social justice to the far left fringes.

Eboo: You don't mention it in your
article, but Dorothy Day attended
the University of Illinois at Champaign-
Urbana. I found her writings and work -
including The Catholic Worker - to be
very inspiring while I, too, attended
and then graduated from the U of I in
the later 1970s.

Daniel Oaks ignores the official position of political neutrality held by the church. He also ignores the various democrats in high leadership positions in the church. As a Mormon I am pleased to see the radical elements of our faith being discussed at a time when the conservative elements are all that seem hold sway in the minds of Mormons and non-Mormons alike. Mormonism fails to fit into political mold offered by the left or the right, it is its own system of thought which incorporates elements of both. As Elder Oaks (not to be confused with Daniel Oaks) of the quorum of the twelve apostles says "I find some wisdom in liberalism, some wisdom in conservatism...—but I find no salvation in any of them."

Best,

Jd1

Daniel Oaks ignores the official position of political neutrality held by the church. He also ignores the various democrats in high leadership positions in the church. As a Mormon I am pleased to see the radical elements of our faith being discussed at a time when the conservative elements are all that seem hold sway in the minds of Mormons and non-Mormons alike. Mormonism fails to fit into political mold offered by the left or the right, it is its own system of thought which incorporates elements of both. As Elder Oaks (not to be confused with Daniel Oaks) of the quorum of the twelve apostles says "I find some wisdom in liberalism, some wisdom in conservatism...—but I find no salvation in any of them."

Best,

Jd1

Arif says: "The problem; we all know that a practicing Muslim believes in Islamic law, that the Koran and Allah's laws (Sharia) are above all."

This in a nutshell is the basic problem with Islam. I also agree with the other comments made by Arif and think they are a great summary of the issues that make Islam obsolete.

Some in Islam think that the West wants to destroy Islam. No this is not the case. In the natural course of nature things must evolve or die. If something is obsolete it dies. You are fighting evolution because so many things that are wrong with Islam are hard-coded into the DNA by a prophet who said nothing could ever be changed and that he was the last prophet. The last prophet created a catch 22 for anyone who would want to bring Islam into the modern world. This leaves Islam between a rock and a hard place. Either everyone looks the other way and agrees to some very extensive mystical interpretations of the words and deeds of the prophet or the faithful need to totally ignore the literal words, if Islam is to enter the modern world. This probably won't happen so our best policy will be containment, which is BTW what our ancestor have practiced for centuries. Nothing much has changed except for the discovery of vast amounts of oil in the 1950's. Its hard to contain something that has what you need and ends up with billion of dollars for doing virtually nothing creative other than poking a hole in the ground.

I am an active Mormon and liberal Democrat who had never heard of the Mormon Worker, so I thank you for your column. The cultural conservatism with which Mormons are associated is not doctrinal, and I glad to see that fact highlighted here.

Back before the national Democratic Party decided to make unlimited abortion and hatred of the armed forces its litmus tests, Democrats had equal influence with Republicans in Utah. Many leaders of the LDS Church, like First Presidency Hugh B. Brown, were known as Democrats, just as Ezra Taft Benson, an apostle and Secretary of Agriculture for Eisenhower, was known for being a conservative Republican. Oscar McConkie, brother of apostle Bruce McConkie, was a Democrat, Speaker of the Utah House, a leading attorney for the Church, and chairman of JFK's campaign in Utah. You still get popular but conservative Democrats in offices like governor and representative from the congressional district around Salt Lake City. Even Republican Mormons like Orrin Hatch support social welfare legislation like medical care for children of the poor, and aid to "downwinders" ion the West exposed to radioactive fallout from nuclear bomb tests. If the Democratic Party nationally could ever decide that it no longer delights in the killing of babies, and no longer opposes the occasional killing of terrorists by the Army, it could receive support from a lot of Mormons.

This is still the Faith Divide right? If so then I wonder what it has to do with the Mormons. To me they are a harmless group of people (love that polygamy!) trying to do good. Also, if a Mormon happens to hold office one day he/she too will uphold the US constitution which guaranties HUMAN rights; The HUMAN can be all Homo sapiens. Any Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Mormon US president has to let go his/her personal belief system in favor of the US constitution-John F Kennedy demonstrated that.

The problem; we all know that a practicing Muslim believes in Islamic law, that the Koran and Allah's laws (Sharia) are above all.

If we were to have a practicing Muslim as the President of the United States(God forbid) then I for one would demand he renounce his faith first before taking office AND cannot take oath on the Koran.

The Koran and Muslim law is very specific about their form of Social Justice. By not going into useless quotations one can look at examples of any Muslim country and their biased laws that favor Muslims only. Muslim countries base their laws entirely upon Islamic law. Blasphemy laws, child labor, child exploitation, child marriages, medical system that favors only the rich, sub-standard education for the poor, job discrimination etc. are all forms of Social Justice that Muslims fail to address in ALL Muslim countries. It is virtually impossible for rape victims particularly from other religions to get justice; Islamic laws favor the male in rape regardless of religion.

In Faith Divide it would be prudent to discuss Social Justice as practiced by Islamic nations and Muslims not willing to challenge these laws. Muslims in the United States are mostly foreign born, some are first generation, why is it that they don't criticize basic human rights violations in countries that they originate from? Is it because they silently agree? Iran, Pakistan to name a few still stone women for adultery, what form of Social Justice is this?

What a John l4:12 experience "Greater works will you do than I (Dorothy Day) as I go to My Father" to have this precious Morman share a faith we so need to study; i.e., the cooperative spirit of the early communities - "Having all things in common" - Now we need to continue Dorothy's call, with Bishop George Roche Evans (1922-1985) ORDINATION OF WOMEN
The War Widows

Mr Patel;

Your last paragraph says...

"Heroes from other faith traditions have a strange way of showing you places that you never saw in your own. As Marcel Proust wrote: “The true journey of discovery is not in discovering new landscapes but in developing new eyes.”

My reaction is,if Proust's observation is a good one,try developing the 'new eyes' of the atheist,which assumes there is no supernatural world,and no gods.This would provide you with a perspective uncluttered with religious mumbojumbo and thus a completely fresh vision of the world.
After all,as far as we know,there are no gods,and no supernatural world.
Ideas promoted by religions are not as different from each other as agnosticism and atheism are from the supernaturalism which religions require believers to believe,and for most of us,is an idea too far from reality to actually consider as truth,in this scientific brave new world.

Here's the proof that your incessant and repetitive posting of your own tripe (ad infinitum) is just message board "mast*rbation":

"You are obsessed with other religions."

Projection...like you're not?!

"Please address the flaws in the founders and foundations of Islam before commenting on the flaws of others."

He makes NO comment on the flaws of other religions, quite the opposite. The only criticism is of the mainstream media, and maybe non-advocates of the disenfranchised.

You didn't even read this article. You just post that crap to satisfy yourself, it's so gross!

Thank you Mr. Patel for a story that promoted considered understanding instead of reader-bating contention. What a breath of fresh air in the current climate of political/religious discussion! I felt like I learned more about socially progressive ideas across a number of faiths, not just my own, which happens to be Mormonism.

The only thing I would take issue with in your story is your uncritically quoting a biased source to define Romney's social views. I do not personally support Romney because of his unfortunate decision not to take a principled stand on the U.S. use of torture. However, I find much to admire in Mr. Romney's moderate views on health care and effective and accountible government social programs. Truthfully, I think playing to the base will come back to haunt Romney the same way it haunted Gore in 2000.

I am saddened that political moderation is so buffetted by the exigencies of party primaries. As a talented member of the media, you can help reverse this trend by preserving the candiates often nuanced ACTUAL views of issues against the broad brush strokes used to paint their ALLEGED views by their opposition.

As a fully faithful, practicing, believing (dare I say orthodox?) Mormon who's also a sociopolitical liberal, I've done a bit of research on this. Judging from statements in official church publications, Mormon culture in the US certainly now leans right (though not as far right as it did three decades ago!), but it hasn't always been so--if you go back just three or four decades further, Mormon culture leaned left--a cyclical thing, perhaps.

Unfortunately (at least, unfortunately as I see it), we now live in an age where it's all too easy for people like Daniel Oaks (and, I'm sure, like me) to lock themselves into an echo chamber where they can easily only run into stuff that reinforces their own opinions. The end result? Mormons who differ on sociopolitical issues who call each other apostates and heretics and ignorant of doctrine rather than recognizing that societies and their politics are but temporary and unimportant next to the glory of the kingdom of God.

There are at least two core Mormon values long at odds with each other: 1) the cultural conservativism inherent in much of intermountain western history and politics; and 2) principals of inherent social justice taught by Christ in all scripture accepted by Mormons.

These two core values have long been at odds, but because the organizational leadership of the Church remains dominated by western conservative political values, the other core value remains subservient, even though the principles of Christ's social justice dominate Sunday Mormonism.

Not hard to understand, but hard to accept and fairly challenging to live within a culture so overwhelmingly dominated by the 'wrong' values for some of us.

I figured it wouldn't take long for another distortion or two to rise to the top :) I won't reiterate my credentials as a full-fledged member of the faith, so I'll just that fiscal liberalism IS NOT considered evil and is indeed embraced by many good members of the faith. A relative of mine, former (and late) Senator Gunn McKay, was quite liberal fiscally yet was considered a model public servant to those Latter Day Saints who knew him.

And after checking the websites listed, it becomes quite apparent that 1) these statements are NOT doctrine. They are insights--thoughtful and profound--that came from an individual LDS leader and 2) socialism is not fiscal liberalism to mainstream Latter Day Saints.

All that said, the cited statements are essentially correct--we do encourage those in need to utilize church welfare services. We believe that it is superior to the government services (Reagan thought it was the model program). But obviously, not everyone agrees with us--plus, I believe in an essential separation between the church and state. If the gov't were to place the Church at the head of the welfare system, 1) that would constitute to many an "established religion" and 2) the church would go bankrupt fast. We simply don't have the resources now to cover it all. So in the meantime, let's allow the government to help us however imperfectly they can.

Daniel Oaks:

> Orthodox Mormons are opposed to fiscal liberalism > ... because fiscal liberalism (ie socialism) is
> seen as a deception of the devil.

Of course, why bother even considering Vanwagenen's ideas about Christianity? One can can always fall back on: the Devil wants to raise your taxes! And who is the source of this knowledge of God's word? Invariably it comes from some conservative religious patriarch who lives in a mansion, pays no taxes at all, and talks to God every morning over breakfast.

How simple and convenient it all is.

There is extensive Mormon doctrine regarding these issues, that Mr. Vanwagenen ignores.

Consider for example this talk by President Romney:
http://emp.byui.edu/WILLIAMSG/talks/mgr_unitedorder.htm

Or this collection of talks by Romney, Clark, and Benson:
http://speakupfortruth.blogspot.com/2005_01_01_speakupfortruth_archive.html

Orthodox Mormons are opposed to fiscal liberalism not because we have placed higher priority upon social issues, but because fiscal liberalism (ie socialism) is seen as a deception of the devil.

I agree with Russell's comments. I think many people would be surprised to see how much diversity -- political, racial, social -- there is within the LDS church.

Eboo,

You are obsessed with other religions. Please address the flaws in the founders and foundations of Islam before commenting on the flaws of others.

Once again for your perusal and comments:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, hallucinating Arab who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? The Islamic Shiite Terror Theocracy of Iran, the Third Axis of Evil and also the "Wannabee" Sunnis of Saudi Arabia.

Eboo,

You are obsessed with other religions. Please address the flaws in the founders and foundations of Islam before commenting on the flaws of others.

Once again for your perusal and comments:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, hallucinating Arab who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? The Islamic Shiite Terror Theocracy of Iran, the Third Axis of Evil and also the "Wannabee" Sunnis of Saudi Arabia.