July 5 news roundup of UK terror plot investigation activities and related news:

-- 45 Muslim doctors planned US terror raids. Daily Telegraph reports that "45 Muslim doctors threatened to use car bombs and rocket grenades in terrorist attacks in the United States during discussions on an extremist internet chat site". Police found details of discussion on the British Jihadist web site run by Younis Tsouli ("Terrorist 007"). Jihadists stated "We are 45 doctors and we are determined to undertake jihad and take the battle inside America.The first target which will be penetrated by nine brothers is the naval base which gives shelter to the ship Kennedy." Telegraph believes that is refers to the USS John F Kennedy, which is often at Mayport Naval Base in Jacksonville, Florida. Daily Telegraph states that the Jihadists also referred to using six Chevrolet GT vehicles and three fishing boats and blowing up petrol tanks with rocket propelled grenades. This would support Sky News report on July 4 of British Anglican cleric Canon Andrew White who has said of an April discussion with Al-Qaeda representative where "[h]e told me that they were going to start killing in the UK then the USA".

16 July 2007: The Northeast Intelligence Network was first to confirm during the June 30, 2007 edition of the Homeland Security Report that last month’s failed London car bomb plot had its tentacles reaching far into the United States. Now, NBC24, a television station in Toledo, Ohio is reporting that the FBI has questioned a Muslim doctor who recently moved to Toledo from the UK. Toledo also happens to be the corporate home of KindHearts for Charitable Humanitarian Development, an Islamic charity chaired by Hatem El-HADY, a Toledo physician, and a charity that has been the subject of an investigation for its reported ties to terror organizations.

The Toledo doctor was questioned by the FBI on July 4, 2007, less than a week after the failed bomb plot in London. According to information obtained through additional investigation conducted by the Northeast Intelligence Network, authorities are focused on a number of subjects in the U.S., including Muslim doctors, and others in the Toledo area who are also associated with a specific Toledo, Ohio mosque. When contacted by this agency, a spokesperson for the mosque declined to speak with this Northeast Intelligence Network investigator.

The July 4th visit to the unnamed Toledo doctor has prompted Toledo area Muslims to circulate an e-mail warning to Muslim doctors “to be ready for a knock at the door by the FBI,” and urged them to “have an attorney present” when answering questions asked by law enforcement officials. Following up on the investigation in Toledo, this Northeast Intelligence Network investigator spoke to a federal law enforcement official from Cleveland, Ohio who is familiar with the various overlapping investigations in Toledo. [MORE: Click on "read more" above or on article title to continue reading].

Responding to the e-mail being circulated, this law enforcement official stated that this type of “feigned cooperation” by the majority of Muslims, whether they are imams, Muslim community leaders or simply members of the Muslim community “is the norm.” “It has been my experience that it’s not unusual for Muslims to publicly portray a sense of cooperation, yet privately stonewall our investigations by refusing to answer questions, or limit their dialogue with law enforcement to communicating only though an attorney, even for the most basic of questions.”

This federal official, speaking to this investigator on the strict condition of anonymity, expressed his frustration at the misconception of a working dialogue between federal agents and “certain Muslim leaders and their representatives.” If you listen to them, they are actively trying to help us [law enforcement] weed out the bad guys,” stated this source. “That’s not quite the reality of it. There is a lot of stonewalling, unwillingness to share information about possible actions of other Muslims that could have criminal implications, or even ties to terrorism,” he added. “We’re talking about everything from possible terrorist funding to direct or peripheral ties to terrorism. When it comes down to them helping us by providing even some answers to the most basic of questions, there is a tremendous amount of resistance and unnecessary roadblocks. I can say from experience that instead of answering questions openly when asked, we have been put off, told to direct our inquiries to their legal representatives, or simply turned away. To make matters worse, we have been frequently told to ‘lay off’ by higher ups, to avoid causing a PR problem, I guess,” stated this source. “It’s definitely frustrating and the supposed cooperation, at least from my experience, is not being honestly portrayed.”

When asked about the media reports that Muslims are urged by Islamic advocacy groups to fully and truthfully cooperate with law enforcement whenever questioned, this source stated “I wish it was that easy, but it’s not like that at all. There is a tremendous unwillingness for Muslims to talk other Muslims, and it’s getting worse.”

This is not the first time a doctor in Toledo has been questioned or at the center of investigation. In an unrelated case, Dr. Mohammad ANVARI-HAMEDANI, 72, a licensed physician, pleaded guilty last April to 36 counts of money laundering, making illegal money transfers to Iran and tax evasion for sending at least $4 million to his native Iran over a four year period. ANVARI-HAMEDANI was sentenced to 60 days in a community jail and ordered to pay $1.15 million in fines and forfeitures. U.S. District Judge James Carr permitted ANVARI-HAMEDANI to serve his jail time on weekends so that he can continue practicing medicine.

Here is another site that keeps up-to-date on the Brotherhood's activities and mentions the suspect organizations involved in illegal activity.

http://www.douglasfarah.com/article/233/more-gleaned-from-the-holy-land-foundation-exhibits.com

This is the document, I think related to the CURRENT TRIAL.

http://www.nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/HLF/US_v_HLF_Unindicted_Coconspirators.pdf

It lists some organizations and people as unindicted coconspirators such as:

VII. The following are individuals/entities who are and/or were members of the US
Muslim Brotherhood:

1. Abdel Rahman Alamoudi
2. Gaddor Ibrahim Saidi
3. Islamic Society of North America, aka ISNA
4. Muslim Arab Youth Association, aka MAYA
5. Nizar Minshar
6. North American Islamic Trust, aka NAIT
7. Raed Awad
8. Tareq Suwaidan

The Muslim Brotherhood's WAR ON THE WEST: 3 of 4

In Britain in 1997, the Muslim Brotherhood founded the Muslim Association of Britain (MAB). This group claims to be moderate, and promotes missionary (dawah) work among the young.
Friday, June 15, 2007By Adrian Morgan

In Britain in 1997, the Muslim Brotherhood founded the Muslim Association of Britain (MAB). This group claims to be moderate, and promotes missionary (dawah) work among the young. Its founder, Kamal Tawfik Helbawy, was at that time the Brotherhood's European spokesman. Born in Egypt in 1939, he had been a member of the Brotherhood since the age of 12. He co-founded the World Assembly of Muslim Youth (WAMY) in Saudi Arabia in 1972 with Abdullah bin Laden, Osama's nephew. WAMY is an organization which has been accused of funding terrorist organizations, including Hamas. Kamal Helbawy was WAMY's first president.
In November 1997, in the same year that he had founded MAB, Helbawy helped to found the Muslim Council for Britain (MCB), which was officially inaugurated on March 1, 1998. As Helbawy stated in a 2005 interview: "I played a role in the establishment of the MCB. Our objective was that the MCB should remain independent and its primary function should be to represent and protect the interests of Muslims."

The MCB, whose senior members have supported extremism, enjoyed an unprecedented position with Blair's government, acting as advisers on all things Islamic. In June 2005 its then-secretary general Iqbal Sacranie was given a knighthood by Blair, even though he is an anti-Semite who wishes to see Holocaust Memorial day scrapped. In 1996, Sacranie supported plans to invite Osama bin Laden to the UK to lecture to Muslims, claiming the terrorist was an "Islamic Scholar". Despite boycotting memorials for the Shoah, Sacranie nonetheless attended a memorial service for Sheikh Yassin, the founder of terror group Hamas. This service was held at London's Central Mosque in 2004.

In 2005, the MCB persuaded Blair to introduce a bill which would have outlawed any criticism of Islam, which was neutered by the Lords, parliament's Upper House. In June 2006, the unelected MCB succeeded in persuading the elected Blair government to abandon its 18-month campaign to outlaw forced marriage, which annually affects at least 250 young Muslim girls.

The government has been so manipulated by the claims of the "moderate" Muslims in Britain, that MI6 and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office have actively courted the Muslim Brotherhood. The overtures to the Brotherhood have been made through a unit called the Engaging With the Islamic World Group" (EWIG) which was founded in 2003. EWIG is led by a 27-year old former Muslim radical called Mockbul Ali. In July 2006, this group used taxpayers' money to pay Yusuf al-Qaradawi, spiritual leader of the Brotherhood, to attend a conference in Turkey. On July 14, 2005, one week after the London bombings, Mockbul Ali argued that a visa should again be given to Qaradawi. That document and others can be found here.

After the London suicide bombings of July 7, 2005, the Blair government invited Tariq Ramadan, son of Said Ramadan and grandson of Hassan al-Banna, to sit on a working committee. This committee was set up to find ways of preventing radicalism amongst Britain's youth. Ramadan is not even a UK citizen, and according to Jean Charles Brissard, he has had meetings with known terrorists in his native Switzerland. The UK government sponsors a website promoting "the radical middle way" of Islam, where Ramadan has his own page. Tariq Ramadan is still barred from entering to the US, though he insists he is not a Muslim Brotherhood member.

US Politicians Duped By The Brotherhood

In the United States, one individual maintained a pretense of "moderation" which would later embarrass the left and the right. According to the testimony of Dr Michael Waller to the US Senate Committee on the Judiciary, Abdurahman Alamoudi was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. A man born in Eritrea in 1951, he arrived in the US in 1979 and became a naturalized US citizen on May 23, 1996. From 1985 onwards he became involved in many Muslim groups. In 1990 he founded the Washington DC-based American Muslim Council (AMC), which Waller states "has been described as a de facto front of the Muslim Brotherhood." The AMC was an affiliate of the American Muslim Foundation, which was also headed by Alamoudi. Despite this, in June 2002 the FBI called the AMC "the most mainstream Muslim group in the United States."

What is of concern is the manner in which Alamoudi persuaded US authorities under two administrations of his reliability. Around 1993, he was an adviser for the Pentagon on which Muslim chaplains should serve in the US military. He continued this role until 1998. From 1997 he acted for the State Department as a "goodwill ambassador" to Muslim countries. He was regularly at the Clinton White House and had advised Hillary Rodham Clinton on managing iftar dinners since 1996. Alamoudi had made donations to the Democrat party but was open to wooing the opposition.

In 1998, as Frank Gafney recounted, right-wing Republican Grover Norquist formed the Islamic Institute, which aimed to recruit Muslim and Arab Americans to support the GOP. Alamoudi made contributions both to the Islamic Institute and later, in 2000 and 2001, he made payments to a lobbying firm connected with Norquist.

Alamoudi's Brotherhood connections were not touted openly, but in August 1997 he was publicly proclaiming on Fox TV that Hamas was a "freedom fighting organization". Hamas had started its first bombings of Israeli civilians in February 1996, a year earlier. On October 28, 2000, Alamoudi attended an anti-Israel protest at Lafayette part outside the White House, where he was caught on video proclaiming "I have been labeled … as being a supporter of Hamas. Anybody supporters of Hamas here? Hear that, Bill Clinton. We are all supporters of Hamas. I wish they added that I am also a supporter of Hezbollah. Anybody who supports Hezbollah here?"

Shortly afterward the White House outburst, Hillary Clinton returned a donation of $1,000 to her election war chest, which Alamoudi had presented on May 25 of that year. Alamoudi embarked upon at least 10 clandestine trips to Libya. On September 28, 2003 after returning from a multi-stage excursion he was arrested at Dulles International Airport. He was handed an 19-count indictment on October 23, on charges including money laundering, dealing with a prohibited nation.

Alamoudi had been stopped at Heathrow on August 16, 2003 before boarding a flight to Syria, and had $340,000 of Libyan money seized. On July 30, 2004 he pleaded guilty to three charges - violating conditions barring transport to and commerce with prohibited nations (Libya), failure to disclose to IRS his income, and lying to ICE federal investigators. On October 15, 2004, Alamoudi was given a jail sentence of 23 years. He had told officials that he provided Libyan money to London-based Saudi dissidents to finance a plot to assassinate Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah.

Politicians may have been fooled by Alamoudi, who headed sixteen US-based Islamist organizations, but despite what is known of the Muslim Brotherhood's support of terrorism and extremism, US politicians are now openly courting the Brotherhood. On April 5 this year in Egypt. House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer met with Mohammed Saad el-Katatni, the leader of the Brotherhood's 55 members within the Egyptian parliament. Hamdi Hassan, the Brotherhood's spokesman, said Hoyer met with el-Katani once at the parliament building and later at the home of the US ambassador to Egypt.

On May 27, a delegation by four members of the House of Congress again met with Mohammed Saad el-Katatni in Egypt. The delegation was led by David Price, a Democrat who represents North Carolina.

The Enemy Within

While Said Ramadan was establishing European bases for the Muslim Brotherhood in Geneva and Munich, similar actions were being taken in the United States. In 1962, an organization called the "Cultural Society" was set up, the first Muslim Brotherhood body to be formed on American soil. Muslim Brotherhood members are sworn to secrecy when they join up ("kitman" or concealment) so exact details of this group are murky. The Cultural Society mainly drew its recruits from foreign Muslim students at midwestern universities, such as Illinois, Indiana and Michigan. The name "Cultural Society" was employed to draw attention away from its Brotherhood identity. The following year, the Muslim Students Association (MSA) was formed by the US Brotherhood, and up until the 1970s, new bodies proliferated.

The website of a newer Brotherhood-founded group, the Muslim American Society (MAS) describes its founders as "pioneers" - "The call and the spirit of the movement reached the shores of North America with arrival of Muslim students and immigrants in the late 1950s and early 1960s. These early pioneers and Islamic movement followers established in 1963 the Muslim Student Association (MSA) of the U.S and Canada as a rallying point in their endeavor to serve Islam and Muslims in North America. Other services and outreach organizations soon followed, such as the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT), the Islamic Medical Association (IMA), the Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA) and the Muslim Youth of North America (MYNA), to name a few."

All of the groups listed above were formed by the Muslim Brotherhood. MYNA was founded by Ahmed Elkadi, who was the US Brotherhood's treasurer from the 1970s until 1984, when he became its president. He held this position until 1995, but has since left the Brotherhood. He did not resign from his position as president of the US Ikhwan - he was pushed.

Other groups were founded by the US Brotherhood later - the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) was formed in the 1980s as an outgrowth of the Muslim Students Association (MSA).

The Muslim American Society, under Brotherhood leadership, was incorporated in 1993 in Illinois. The decision to incorporate the MAS was made at a meeting of 40 Ikhwan (MB) members at a hotel near the Alabama-Tennessee state line. Shaker Elsayed, an leader within MAS, has admitted the Brotherhood had founded the Muslim American Society, saying: "Ikhwan members founded MAS, but MAS went way beyond that point of conception."

MAS is based in Falls Church, Virginia, the same town where Abdurahman Alamoudi lived. Five miles away in Alexandria lay the US headquarters of the World Assembly of Muslim Youth or WAMY, which was co-founded by a Brotherhood member, Kamal Helbawy. On Friday May 28, 2004 the WAMY offices were raided by agents of the FBI, ICE and the Joint Terrorism Task Force. An affidavit from a customs agent claimed that one WAMY publication included a section entitled "Animosity Toward the Jews", and stated: "The Jews are humanity's enemies: they foment immorality in this world." The affidavit mentioned links with WAMY and the terrorist group Hamas.

The director of MAS' "Freedom Foundation", Mahdi Bray, pushed for the release of a Falls Church Citizen, Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, who had been accused of plotting to assassinate George W. Bush in al al-Qaeda plot. Ali, who had been educated at the Saudi-funded Islamic Saudi Academy in Alexandria, was convicted on November 22, 2005 and sentenced to 30 years' jail on March 29, 2005.

MAS, which has 10,000 members in 53 chapters across the US, is also involved in the disputes at Minneapolis-St Pauls airport, where Somali taxi drivers have refused to carry passengers with alcohol. Three quarters of the 900 drivers are Muslim, mostly from Somalia. Last year, 5,400 potential rides were turned down because passengers had alcohol. The Metropolitan Airport Commission sought guidance from Muslims, and a fatwa was made by the MAS. Khalid Elmasary declared: "It is expressly stated. Transportation of alcohol for Muslims is against the Islamic faith, and therefore forbidden." The issue still has not been resolved.

It is sometimes hard to work out if such Muslim "representatives" are really following the ways of the prophet, or are following the plans laid out in Muslim Brotherhood's "Project" manifesto for gaining national and global power.

Mahdi Bray, who is based in Washington DC where he has a radio talk-show, is accused of taking part in protests were calls for the death of Jews. Steve Emerson in his book American Jihad stated that at the October 28 2000 rally for Hezbollah and Hamas at Lafayette Park, "Mahdi Bray, stood directly behind Alamoudi and was seen jubilantly exclaiming his support for these two deadly terrorist organizations." Three weeks earlier, Bray had "coordinated and led a rally where approximately 2,000 people congregated in front of the Israeli Embassy in Washington, D.C.... at one point during the rally, Mahdi Bray played the tambourine as one of the speakers sang, while the crowd repeated: 'Al-Aqsa is calling us, let's all go into jihad, and throw stones at the face of the Jews."

Bray, who was awarded a Congressional Black Caucus award in September last year, has issued a press release claiming "victory" in the settlement of vindictive lawsuit launched by the Islamic Society of Boston, which attacked 16 organizations and individuals, including Steve Emerson.

There was no settlement agreed between the parties - the Islamic Society of Boston mysteriously dropped its lawsuit, which claimed "defamation", on May 29, 2007. With MAS coming to its defense, and with Muslim Brotherhood member Abdurahman Alamoudi listed as one its founders and trustees, with the Muslim Brotherhood's spiritual leader Yusuf al-Qaradawi as another early trustee, it is not unreasonable to assume that the Islamic Society of Boston began its life in 1982 as another outreach of the Muslim Brotherhood. In 2002, Qaradawi appeared by videolink at an ISB fund-raising event.

The ISB, which is building the largest mosque in Eastern United States at Roxborough, Boston, was in January 2006 defended by Arsalan Iftikhar, the legal director of the Council of American Relations (CAIR), who said: "Unfortunately, I see the Boston case as indicative of a growing trend in anti-Muslim rhetoric that has grown after 9/11." It should be noted that the two co-founders of CAIR, Omar Ahmad and Nihad Awad, were officials of the Islamic Association for Palestine, which was established by Hamas member Mousa Abu Marzook, and has been called a "Hamas Front". Nihad Awad and Ahmed Bedier, head of CAIR's Florida chapter, have both openly pledged their support for Hamas, which itself is derived from the Muslim Brotherhood.

With its previous links to Muslim Brotherhood members, ISB may be thankful that it was not listed as an "unindicted co-conspirator" in a plot to fund Hamas. This has been the recent fate of CAIR. In a trial in Dallas, Texas, Ghassan Elashi, the head of CAIR's Texas chapter, is accused with a staggering list of co-conspirators. Elashi was also head of Texas branch of the outlawed Holy Land Foundation. The indictment maintains that other officials from the Texas branch of the Holy Land Foundation, had conspired with numerous others to supply funds to Hamas. Ghassan Elashi and his brothers Bayan and Basman were convicted of "conspiracy to provide material support to terrorists" on April 13, 2005. Elashi was given a seven year sentence on October 13, 2006.

The named co-conspirators include eight Muslim Brotherhood individuals and organizations: Abdurahman Alamoudi, Gaddor Ibrahim Saidi, the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA), Nizar Minshar, North American Islamic Trust (NAIT), Raed Awad and Tareq Suwaidan. The trial will begin on July 16. The trial will hopefully clarify further the exact roles of CAIR, and also the mysterious American contingent of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Muslim Brotherhood is not a body to be trusted. It claims peace and moderation, while simultaneously planning to conquer the globe by fair means or foul. It propagates anti-Semitism, and justifies and supports the murder of Israeli civilians. Its current motto is: "Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Koran is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope." Those politicians who try to do deals with such a group are betraying not only the people who elected them and the nations they serve, but they jeopardize the security of the Western world at large.

This article was also published at FamilySecurityMatters.org

Re: Canyon Shearer's posts.

The Bible is THE word of God.

Because THE BIBLE says so.

He repeatedly talks about obvious truths related to the Bible, but the only proof is the Bible.

The Hearst paper tells the truth.

Because the Hearst paper says so.

Frankly, as a Christian myself, I know that what I beleive cannot always be proven and that is what makes my beliefs FAITH.

The trouble is that Canyon seems to not only overlook this, but actually claims to have cornered the market on knowing the TRUE TRUTH and the very thoughts and actions of God from beyond this world.

After all, Mother Theresa, Ghandi, the Pope are all in hell. (according to him...er, God)

What's great about Canyon's BRAND of Christianity is that he gets to be superior, and make himself feel good by "being" better than everyone else and disguising it as concern for their souls. Like telling Catholic School Student that he/she is going to hell like the Pope did. Of course, he has no need to tend to his own Heaven-bound soul.

Canyon has it perfected, I may even convert.

Christ died to save me from my sins. Therefore, I will continue to refer to myself as a sinner (even though I know I am going to Heaven anyway) so I look humbler when I tell random strangers that they are going to hell. No matter what I do, I get to go to Heaven, and no matter what YOU do, you go to hell....unless you agree with me. Whatever you do to save your soul won't work, unless you do it like me!

Sounds like a pretty good deal.

And what's the proof? The Bible.

Who were the scholars who verified the accuracy of the books used in the Bible? The earliest Catholics.

Who's in Hell? According to Canyon, The Pope, Mother Theresa...Anyone other than those who believe as Canyon does. Even the followers of the faith who originally assembled the Word Of God are in Hell, but he is exempt from hell no matter what because of good "lip service".

In all the posts I have read of Canyon Shearer's, I have never seen ONE instance of him speaking in a Christian manner. If he were as concerned for the souls of others as he claims, then he would have considered a more successful means of expression. But if you go back you can see he has not...just the same old nasty crap...over and over.

HE knows what God does and thinks...so watch out!

Canyon:
**The difference between us; we both say we will be held accountable for our actions, only one of us believes it.**

No, we just have different ideas as to what constitutes being held responsible, and who/what does the holding.

You believe that your god will hold us responsible after we die.

I believe that the Universe holds me responsible right here, right now, and that if I don't rectify any wrong that I do before I die, then when the conditions are right, I will be drawn back to the world of the living to fix it, and that I will keep being drawn back until I get it right.

Canyon:
**When you're a Christian we'll talk about the beauty of Creation and the gloriousness of God, but until then it is futile for me to give you the world if you lose your soul.**

So only Christians are able to fully appreciate the beauty of the world? Um, no. For me, that beauty IS the Divine. The wind is her breath, the earth her body, the sun her spirit, the rain her blood.
And I don't need you to give me the world or my soul, since you have the power to neither grant nor deny either one, nor do I have to chose between the two. They are inextricably woven together.

**I know you think this is all one big game, but it isn't. No matter how many times you say it doesn't matter, it does.**

I think I can safely speak for Terra, Wiccan, PaganPlace, PriveR, and any other Pagan reading this when I say that OUR FAITH IS NOT A GAME! We take our religion every bit as seriously as you do yours, only we also find great joy in it, which you seem to lack. Devotion and joy are not mutually exclusive. If your faith does not bring you joy, then perhaps you aren't doing it right.

Terra, I'm not sure how I got the names wrong, thanks for pointing that out.

Here is the point.

If I'm right, if the Bible has any credibility, then you are in trouble. I am responsible for my actions just as you are, this is a crucial point in Christianity.

All liars will have their place in the lake of fire.

There is nothing you can do to save yourself, and I want to leave you with one parting shot; "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

The difference between us; we both say we will be held accountable for our actions, only one of us believes it.

Please genuinely ask yourself if you honestly want to receive what you deserve.

Shearer,
I believe you should have addressed your last post to Wiccan...that was his beautiful reply post to you.

All I can say is Ditto.

You have no idea about us and our beliefs. That we know we are responcible for our actions and that we will pay for the wrongs we do. But we are taught from the beginning that when we wrong others, we only harm ourselves. To do right is simply better...no fear, no carrot or stick...simply to do right, to help others, to further progress is better then to harm and to go backwards.

As far as allogory..lol..we know allogaory. You are a piker when it comes to allogory compaired to Pagans.

As far as me going to hell...I could be flippant and say that at least we will be with the fun crowd. But I won't...I will say that (again) we do not follow your ways. And as far as I am concerned...my path leads to the light and the journy is full of beauty, joy and oneness.
So what if your book says different? lol...It's your book and mine is written on the wind and in the waters.

And as far as you giving me the world...uh? It's your to give? Sorry it's mine by birth right. And my soul is in fine mettle. In fact I am so virtuous I am boreing. Heck sonny...I am Goddess!

terra

Terra,

That is a fair question. My compassion is found in trying to talk you out of diving into Hell. We're not talking about the fruits of the Spirit or the handiwork of God, we are talking about your eternal destination. When you're a Christian we'll talk about the beauty of Creation and the gloriousness of God, but until then it is futile for me to give you the world if you lose your soul.

I know you think this is all one big game, but it isn't. No matter how many times you say it doesn't matter, it does.

We both agree there is a Deity, we both agree in a difference between right and wrong. I am on God's side when I tell you God considers sin a matter of life and death, throughout History God has killed several people over the matter of a single lie. This is an important point of contemplation for you. Sin originally caused death, continues to cause death, and results in eternal death and suffering.

Please go back and read your posts, you haven't posted a single thing to suggest otherwise; rather that your small view of God says that he doesn't care.

He does care, and I don't want you to go to Hell.

Canyon-

What a dark and ugly world you live in. God hates man, Man hates God, Nature hates Man, Man hates Nature, God hates Nature, Nature hates God. Then you have the nerve to lecture us about understanding allegory, when you remain completely unaware that your Christ is the metaphor for everything that must die so that you may live, just like the Corn King before him.

Our lives are not a rollercoaster, they are a sacred dance of joy and thanksgiving. You tremble before your wrathful and vindictive God, and, with your eyes cast down, are blind to the beauty of the Divine thats surrounds you and permeates every part of your existence. Open your eyes! God/dess is everywhere! The Earth herself proclaims the glory of the Divine, the flowers and trees bear witness to Its grace, the birds sing hymns of praise, everything you encounter gives you the chance to feel the love God/dess bears for you.

"I am the gracious Goddess,
who gives the gift of joy unto the heart of man.
Upon earth, I give the knowledge of the spirit eternal;
and beyond death, I give peace, and freedom,
and reunion with those who have gone before.

Nor do I demand sacrifice;
for behold, I am the Mother of all living,
and my love is poured out upon the earth.

Hear ye the words of the Star Goddess;
she in the dust of whose feet are the hosts of heaven,
whose body encircles the universe.

I who am the beauty
of the green earth and the white moon upon
the mysteries of the waters,
I call upon your soul to arise and come unto me.

For I am the soul of nature
that gives life to the universe.
From me all things proceed and unto me
they must return.
Let My worship be in the
heart that rejoices, for behold,
all acts of love and pleasure
are My rituals.

Let there be beauty and strength,
power and compassion,
honor and humility,
mirth and reverence within you.
And you who seek to know me,
know that the seeking and yearning
will avail you not,
unless you know the Mystery:
for if that which you seek,
you find not within yourself,
you will never find it without.

For behold,
I have been with you from the beginning,
and I am that which is attained
at the end of desire."

Where is your beauty, Canyon? Where is your compassion, your humility, your mirth? Have you found what you seek outside of you that you could not find within?

I can already see you with your hands over your ears, going "Lalalalala, I can't hear you!" That's OK, because I will no longer listen to you. I refuse to let you dishonor the Divine who graces me with beauty and joy each moment of my life. So Mote It Be!

Blessed Be.

I originally thought Muslims were the worst at understanding allegory, but this thread may have changed my opinion that Wiccans are indeed the most clueless on parables.

I don't know how much I should explain my symbolism because I'd like to believe ya'll are somewhat edumacated.

Here is the deal, you are on this crazy roller-coaster called life. At the end of this roller-coster is a definite and certain end. There is no escaping the end, being death, many have tried, all have failed. Consider me, right now I plan to live forever in this body; so far so good.

While on the roller coaster you have the opportunity to do right or wrong. Each right or wrong is recorded, you're even told when you do wrong by a tiny little microchip made by "With Knowledge Enterprises" (conscience ent. for short)

At the end you're expecting a scale to weigh your goods against your bads, what you haven't realized is that your rights are feather light and your wrongs are black-hole heavy.

What you've effectively told yourselves is that your wrongs, of which you cannot escape, they've been piled on the back of the roller-coaster and will be with you at the end, will not be weighed at the end of the ride, albeit they have been promised to be weighed by the owner of the roller coaster.

Consider the weight of evidence you will leave this world with. I recommend you swap loads with Christ, His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

We're not playing a game here, this is deadly real stuff, you're going to die, even if you feel quite healthy today, and then you will stand before God, who will require an account for every idle word and every deed done in darkness. You probably don't know that God has a pretty good sense of sarcasm, it is sparsely scattered through the Bible, but it definitely exists.

Consider your answer when He asks you whether He presented you with enough evidence of your guilt; look behind you and see the miles of roller-coaster cars filled with your lifetime of sin, and call out to the God of the Universe to take away the sins of your world and cleanse you of your iniquity. God will grant you repentance and everlasting life, but only if you admit to your failure to honor righteousness.

" Canyon Shearer:

"Wiccan,

If you would ask honest questions, then it would be easier for me to answer you."

Ah, let's see how honest *your* questions are, Canyon.

"The animals are not brothers, they are animals.
They are not created in God's image and have not been given freewill. If I weren't given freewill I wouldn't sin either."

Since 'sin' is the bag of people who think animals are beneath 'God,' that's no surprise.

Is your world so sterile that your God isn't in the animals?

Your idea of 'free will' as only existing in human minds who are supposed to eschew it because of some 'sin' thing, yet look down on animals for not having the ability to 'sin' as humans are not supposed to...

Doesn't make sense.

"Please give me your understanding of how someone gets to Heaven."

Essentially, in the curent dreamscape, 'up' and in blue-white directions.

Still, like most high places, it's a nice place to visit, but you wouldn't necessarily want to live there. :)

Ok, really, 'How to Get To Heaven' is again something only meaningful in your own book's preconceptions.

You fear death... And life... so much... That you construct these crazy scenarioes based on your own preconceptions, as though non-believers actually want your Lamboes and bags of money and the other things you clutch at but think everyone else really wants-but-must-resist.

In my response to your example, well, notice the money is just a bag of paper.

The Lambo's maybe a roll-cage and airbag system. Or at least a classy way to hit deck. :)

The 'parachute,' what's that... To you, a fearful way to *escape.* To stave off death. You could land safe and sound and get hit by a semi, or starve in the wilderness cause you thought knowing about the soul of natural things was 'beneath' you.

"How to get to Heaven."

What does this *mean* to you? Deny yourself a million dollars, a fine work of art, a Lambo, an airplane up on its maintenance schedule, you might get *rewarded* with these *things* you find so important?

What's that?

Us?

Or you?

I mean, not to strain the metaphor too far, Canyon, but you're the one who thinks it's up to him to decide who gets to jump out of a perfectly good airplane that we maybe ought to concentrate on flying.

Heh, Canyon, apart from that your science sucks beneath mention at this point:

"Imagine I offer you the choice of one of the following:
1. Lamborghini Murcielago
2. The Mona Lisa
3. Parachute
4. $1,000,000 Cash

Which one do you want?"

I think the first questions would be,

a) Are we on an 'airplane.'
b) Is it actually on fire.

Easy enough, there. Assuming it is:

c) Who the Hel do you think you are to be passing out parachutes? Or Lambos, for that matter.

As a Pagan, I might say, "Ok, you're more scared of personal death, ...Take the parachute, and I'll see if we can save the Mona Lisa by stuffing it in this bag of money, then I'll see who's driving this thing, anyway."

:)

"Now consider this, we're 21,000 feet above the ground and our airplane is on fire.

Now which one do you want?

There is one way to salvation, all other roads lead to destruction.

"God does not like you. In His Revelation to us alone He calls you a child of the devil, of wrath, of disobedience, an enemy of righteousness, separated from Him, and doomed to Hell. What makes you think a God you have spurned would want to call you to anything?"
~~
And Shearer...fear will not work on me. I do not fear your words...your hell or your interpretation of Creator. I never did hear the call of your god...I was born hearing the voice of moonlight.

````````````````````
The Enchanted Loom
(words & music by Jesse Wolf Hardin with Loba)

"It’s said there are invisible threads of energy binding all the shamans of the world to one another.... and something connects each of us as well: the empathics and sensitives who dwell on the edge, who hear the calling, and keep the pledge. Practitioners of authenticity and wholeness, reinhabiting sacred self and sacred land. Seekers of significance and purpose, the last to give up the ancient ways, and the first to explore the new.

Those its said may cry too hard, or laugh too loud.... that dare to care, so much! Each an integral component, of a lineage of place holders: unbridled children and wizened elders, willful wilders, wiccans and wizards on whose souls rest the responsibility to invoke a new/old Earth, an Earth once again green and growing, dynamic and diverse, feral and free. Our shared ministry is this most insistent calling. And our liturgy.... is our love.

Conservationists, restorationists and healers. Teachers, activists and defenders. Artists, ritualists and celebrants– all rare conduits of clarity in an age of blinding noise and neon. We’re the reinhabitants of Ectopia and Katuah, the verdant Northeast and the mountains and deserts of the mystical Southwest, of watersheds and wildernesses, sacred groves and organic farms. In tryst with rivers and forests, promised to a particular valley, or courting all the Earth in a gypsy’s search for home. We’re returning to an older way of being as well, to the great mystery– humbled by our place in the awesome harmonic Whole. We’re determined to dance out our individual dances, never losing step with that greater choreography of which we are a part. Like the fabled Alice, we each pursue furtive magic through the openings in the roots of trees and the imaginations of children. Getting down on our hands and knees, we make our way back to that Gaian Wonderland we can never really leave.

I’m excited! The energy is incredible. The transition, no matter how bright, demands that we look! Unwavering vision. Unwavering intent. I’m excited! Because I sense more acutely than ever our connection to one another, and to those spirits and life forms we call “other.” It’s not really a thread that connects us after all, you know– but strands of a miraculous web. We can feel each other from great distances, through its delicate vibrations. We have only to reach out now, along these fibers, over roaring rivers, underneath a canopy of trees, in order to touch the source.... through the warp and weft of interconnected consciousness. Though we may live and work in different places, we are but one tribe, with a single unified cause. Champions of sentience and sacrament, bodily extensions and voluntary agents of holy Will.

The whispering river and the rustling of the leaves are this inspirited Whole, trying to get our attention. Gaia, The Earth, is speaking to us through the voices of all creation. Yes, I’m excited! I stand as if barefoot, out of breath, staring wide-eyed at the wonder of the magic exploding before us. I’m thrilled to witness this re-becoming, this song... as we’re each reintegrated into the living, breathing flux, each made to feel we belong. I’m thrilled, because as loving and responsive care-takers, we’re fulfilling our true evolutionary role, redeeming our species as well as our selves.

No, we humans are not the brain of Gaia, the divine director– the anointed weaver that sets design rules for the patterns in rock, the flow of fire, the perfect twists in peach-colored sea shell. But we are the voluntary magic that fills the enchanted loom, reaching out in our efforts to restore the planet. Reaching out for each other. Reaching down deep again with our splayed toes, our anxious probing roots.... embracing the innermost heart of the Mother Earth, and thereby reaching out, out– until the sun encircled.
~~~~
Shearer...does your god have anything I need? So use your fear and hatemongering. Dear it means less then naught to me. I don't need to spurn your god...I have my own view of deity and where I stand with it.

I wish you happy...
Keir

Canyon-

It was an honest question. So, lack of free will = no sin.

We ALL go to the other side. Wiccans call it the Summerland. Once there, you have to confront all the wrongs you did and the hurt you caused with honesty, and without justification. But you also get to see the good you did and the joy you brought. And then, when you're ready, you get another chance to get it right.

Perhaps that is what confuses me so much about your brand of Christianity. Wiccans put a high premium on personal responsibility. If I do wrong, then I am the one who pays the consequences. To me, the thought of a "blameless other" being "sacrificed" for my wrongs is repulsive.

Canyon:
**I understand this is a difficult thing for you to understand.**

Don't patronize me. I'm an inteliigent woman and a former Christian. I know the dogma - I just no longer believe it.

**You've ignored and blasphemed the God of the Universe so long that your conscience has been dulled on this point.**

Actually, it's only blasphemy for you, since you are the one who beleives in him. And my conscience is clear. I sleep very well at night, and, other than having to tame bed-head, have no difficulty facing the mirror every morning.

**Me denying leprechauns does not mean I hate them because they have done nothing for me.**

Are you sure? They're invisible, you know. Perhaps those times when you've been broke and wanted a bite to eat and found a dollar on the ground, a leprechaun left it for you to keep you from going hungry.

**Now, if said leprechaun did exist and was the reason I was alive today, provided air for me to breathe, was patient with me while I was his enemy, and chose to create the provision that my eternal life could be saved anyways...and I chose to say that he didn't do any of those things...that would be hatred.**

My mom and dad having unprotected sex is the reason I was born, and the reason I'm alive today is because I haven't died yet. The air I breathe is provided by green plants who take in the carbon dioxide I exhale and emit the oxygen I inhale. I have no enemies. When I die, my body will become part of hte food web, thus ensuring it's continued existence in many forms. My spirit will simply dissipate and mingle with the other energy fields abounding in the Universe.
At the risk of reperating myself, I don't hate anyone, and I don't need you to define my emotions or my beliefs for me. I know what I feel, and I know what I believe.

**But saying I don't believe in a leprechaun who has done none of those things is simply indifference.**

And saying that I don't believe in your concept of the Divine is a simple, objective statement of fact.

**I hope you see why you hate the Living God, and why this denial is infinitely more spiteful than not believing in little green men.**

I hate no one. And leprechauns aren't green.

**This is an important concept for you to understand, because its why you're on a straightshot to Hell.**

Show me objective proof of the existence of Hell, and I'll consider being frightened of the threat. Until you can prove to me that Hell exists, you might as well threaten to throw me to the frumoius bandersnatch.

Actually reading back, I am ashamed of myself for using that analogy! Am I becoming pea-brained reading Canyon's posts?

Should you be pitied? What a ridiculous analogy you gives!

In the same analogy, imagine you are in the airplane you mentioned (the one that is on fire, remember?), you already have a parachute on your back and now I offer you the choice of one of the following:
1. Go through door # 1
2. Go through door # 2
3. Go through door # 3
4. Go through door # 4

Which one do you want? Does it matter? Of course, not! But on the question of whether you know how to open a parachute and how to land, does it matter? Absolutely!

There is NO one way to salvation, all roads CAN lead to destruction if taken with a narrow mind! The same roads could also lead to salvation if taken with an open and educated mind!

I know this is not a great analogy, but I am just trying to make you realize your folly using your own analogy!

Wiccan,

If you would ask honest questions, then it would be easier for me to answer you.

The animals are not brothers, they are animals. They are not created in God's image and have not been given freewill. If I weren't given freewill I wouldn't sin either.

Please give me your understanding of how someone gets to Heaven.

Canyon-

When we reach the other side, you're going to be one of those souls we have to tip-toe around because you think you and others like you are the only ones in heaven.

Msybe you can answer this: Man is supposed to be such a nasty and vile creature that "God" tried to wash him off the face of this sweet earth, but he is considered worthy enough to have dominion over his brothers, the animals, who bear no sin. Why is that?

The uniqueness of Christianity

Imagine I offer you the choice of one of the following:
1. Lamborghini Murcielago
2. The Mona Lisa
3. Parachute
4. $1,000,000 Cash

Which one do you want?

Now consider this, we're 21,000 feet above the ground and our airplane is on fire.

Now which one do you want?

There is one way to salvation, all other roads lead to destruction.

And I hope you would some day accept the fact that these are but different roads leading to the same God!

Hey buddy, what is the difference between "your" One God and the many Gods of someone else? How do you know they are not one and the same? Or are you arrogant enough to just think it is your way or the highway (to hell)?

Terra Gazelle,

The reason you don't want to believe in God is because you've formed Him into an idol that could not possibly be proven. Of course your idea of the True God doesn't exist, he's Terra Gazelle shaped and is impotent in the affairs of men.

I can't prove to you that you exist, or even me for that matter, if you don't want to do the research, but that doesn't change the fact that either of us exist. God is unique in the world of gods because He exists outside of our thoughtlives.

I don't believe in automobiles, that doesn't change the fact that if I take a stroll down the interstate I'm going to get punished for this unbelief. When I encounter my first automobile, my understanding is going to be radically and immediately changed. I'm asking you to believe in automobiles before this event. You will believe in the Just Judge of all the Universe sooner or later...but if it's later, because you're standing before Him, it will be too late.

Of course you find God wanting, that is the only way you can undeify Him enough that you're comfortable using His name in vain.

God does not like you. In His Revelation to us alone He calls you a child of the devil, of wrath, of disobedience, an enemy of righteousness, separated from Him, and doomed to Hell. What makes you think a God you have spurned would want to call you to anything?

But fortunately for you, He is a patient God and has given you thus far without crushing you and throwing your soul into the Lake which burns with Fire and Brimstone. But His patience will last only so long. Will you stand before Him today after driving across the wrong bridge? Or will it be eighty-two years from now? Let's hope and pray for the latter, but it has been appointed once for Terra Gazelle to die, and then the judgment.

Can your gods save you on that day?

Lepidopteryx,

I understand this is a difficult thing for you to understand. You've ignored and blasphemed the God of the Universe so long that your conscience has been dulled on this point.

Me denying leprechauns does not mean I hate them because they have done nothing for me. Now, if said leprechaun did exist and was the reason I was alive today, provided air for me to breathe, was patient with me while I was his enemy, and chose to create the provision that my eternal life could be saved anyways...and I chose to say that he didn't do any of those things...that would be hatred.

But saying I don't believe in a leprechaun who has done none of those things is simply indifference.

I hope you see why you hate the Living God, and why this denial is infinitely more spiteful than not believing in little green men.

This is an important concept for you to understand, because its why you're on a straightshot to Hell.

Canyon:
**You got that backwards, your denial of God proves your hatred.**

Thank you for clearing that up for me. If it weren't for you, I would have no idea what I feel or believe.
Excuse me while I go get a mop for the dripping sarcasm.

By your logic, your denial of the existence of leprechauns proves your hatred for them. Why do you hate leprechauns?

Shearer,

Can you prove your God? Can you prove that there was a man named Jesus that raised from the dead? Can you prove there is no Santa Claus?

You prove all those things to your satisfaction...not to mine.

I believe in God, but not the version you know. I find that version wanting. I do not ask you to turn to mine. I do not believe they would call you..and that is what must happen. If any God has power, they have the power to call those they choose. My Gods do not want you...and I do not want your's.

Worship who you please...I am glad that we live in the US so that you can do that. I am also happy that I can honor my Gods in the way my conscious guides me to. But please understand that you belittle and disrespect Pagans as thinking and thoughtful people and Americans to belittle and disrespect our faiths. You have no right to...according to OUR religion. And it is OUR religion that you are worried about.

Blessed be..
keir

You got that backwards, your denial of God proves your hatred.

Canyon:
**...there is a difference between disbelief and hatred.**

of course there is. Hatred is what you accused me of. Disbelief is what I have.

**If you ignored your parents and told people they didn't exist and that your life, upbringing, and gene's are the result of random chance. You are blaspheming your parents by ignoring them.**

The existence of my parents is provable. Come over and I'll introduce you to them. I can show you pictures and home video of my birth as well.

**We know your parents exist because you are all the evidence we need.**

Right. Becaue we all know how people are created - the whole sperm-egg-sex bit.

Anonymous, I'll give you a chance to rephrase your question. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not as dumb as your post made you out to be.

Lepidopteryx, there is a difference between disbelief and hatred. If you ignored your parents and told people they didn't exist and that your life, upbringing, and gene's are the result of random chance. You are blaspheming your parents by ignoring them.

We know your parents exist because you are all the evidence we need.

Canyon,
I don't hate your god - I don't beleive in your concept of the divine, and it's impossible to hate something if I don't beleive it exists in the first place. Do you hate leprechauns? No, because you don't believe they exist. Same thing for me and your god. In fact, I don't hate anyone - hating someone gives them power over me, and I'm not willing to allow anyone to have that kind of control over me.

I've seen answers in Genesis - it's like Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" - using scripture to "prove " scripture is circular logic.

"Your goal should be to find out who created the Universe, why you have a conscience, why reality mirrors the Bible perfectly, why the earth could not possibly be more than a few million years old and that it is wearing out, and why we have an innate sense that lawbreakers should be punished."

My goal is to live my life in such a way that when I go to bed every night, I can name at least one thing I did that day that made someone else's day a little better. My goal is to live as harmoniously as posssible with the other living beings that walk, crawl, slither, hop, fly, swim, or put down roots on this lovely planet we all share.
As for who created the universe, I don't think there was a who external to the process.
Why do I have a conscience? Survival tool. What's good for the communtiy is ultimately good for the individuals in that community. Stealing, killing, raping, and pillaging are not good for the community, therefore it is in my best interest not to engage in those activities.
Why does reality mirror the Bible perfectly? Um, it doesn't.
Why do we have an innate sense that lawbreakers must be punished? Back to what's good for the community being good for the individuals.

Canyon Shearer:
"the earth could not possibly be more than a few million years old." Are you implying the bible is wrong and the earth is older than six thousand years as the bible scholars calculted from the 'histerical' bible. Do tell.

lepidopteryx, some people will believe anything if it's not the Bible. Each one of your questions has an EASY answer, yet you hate God and thus don't want to learn that answer.

See answersingenesis.org

We're not talking about who's imaginary friend is better here, God is not some personalized experience. Your goal should be to find out who created the Universe, why you have a conscience, why reality mirrors the Bible perfectly, why the earth could not possibly be more than a few million years old and that it is wearing out, and why we have an innate sense that lawbreakers should be punished.

See trustobey.blogspot.com/search/label/Biblomorphism

And, I say this seriously: What *is* it with you Abrahamic types and the *sex* thing?

Gods, talk about how to get nothing done in government, you guys are *obsessed.*

Yeah, Samer, that's real productive, especially in this context. Why don't you make your own group of people who can't stand non-Christians appearing before the Senate, only Muslim.

The response might be less temperate, in your case, but it beats getting a 'real job,' doesn't it?

Gods. You say Muslims are being killed, yes, then what, try to support a Christian state religion by blaming *Clinton* for being a 'fornicator?'

Why, I'd think you were a Fundamentalist Christian in disguise, except, just maybe....

It's the same.

Ibrahim (e-boo) need to reexamine the constitution about seperation of church and state. Muslims are being killed daily while he's on some hippie movement. He's a shia muslim, meaning he has a warped idea of the basis of Islam. Kissing up to Clinton and other fornicators is not becoming of a muslim. Get a real job e-boo.

Wiccan,
There are many things about Christianity that, the older I got and the more I thought about it, made no sense, whether I read it literally or metaphorically, starting with Genesis.

God creates a lovely garden, filled with all sorts of plants and animals and tells them to "be fruitful and multiply." Then he creates Adam because he wants something "in our own image." Then he creates Eve because Adam is jealous that all the animals have sex partners but he doesn't. Did he not intend at first for Adam to multiply? After all, Eve appears to have been an afterthought. Not very good planning, that.
Then there's the whole tree bit. Why plant a tree, smack dab in the middle of everything, hang lovely, appetizing fruit on it, and then tell them not to touch it? If he didn't want them to eat it, why not simply not put it out of their reach?
What's up with Cain and Abel? Cain's offering was just as sincere as Abel's was, so why would God scorn it? Why did God them mark Cain to protect him from anyone who would want to kill him for having murdered Abel? And who was Mrs. Cain? If Adam and Eve were literally the only people God created from scratch, then did Cain marry a sibling? If God created more people from dirt and spareribs, and placed them in other locations, why doesn't the Bible mention it, at least in passing?
How did Noah fit two of every species, plus forty days worth of fodder for the herbivores, plus meat for the carnivores, plus food for six people, plus fresh water for all, on one boat? How would he keep meat for the carnivores from spoiling for forty days? Dry it? It would take an awful lot of jerky to feed one lion for forty days, much less two of every carnivorous species. And how would he manage sanitation?
I don't know much about olive trees, but could one survive forty days of complete submersion? If water was so high that it covered mountaintops, then one would assume that it was a combination of seawater and rainwater - wouldn't the saltwater have killed all plant life, even if simply being waterlogged didn't?
How did Noah plant grapes, grow them, and ferment wine so quickly? And what was so awful about laughing at seeing his father passed out drunk and naked that merited cursing Ham and all his descendents? If I saw my dad passed out drunk and naked, I'd probably laugh too before covering him up.
Why does God decide to destroy an entire city for the sins of certain of its denizens? Why not simply punish the individuals who are behaving badly? Is his aim that poor?
Why is Lot considered virtuous for offering his virgin daughters to be raped by a mob? Why didn't the angels stop him making such an offer, seeing as how one would assume they were capable of protecting themselves.

And don't get me started on the whole NT substitutionary atonement bit. How does an innocent being punished in the place of the guilty absolve the guilty?

Good post, sisters.

Canyon's blazing displays of illogic and insult to other religions are a prime example of what you get when you allow 'religion' in a pluralistic society to seem monolithic:

For one, Canyon, you can't go around telling other people what *they* believe, believe it or not, especially when you get it so wrong, both about Hindus and Pagans. Your willful, inflammatory ignorance is in fact a prime demonstration of why our government could use a little diversity education, especially when people like you try to claim that this nation was founded on a form of Christianity that had hardly existed it yet.

Jonathan Edwards and all those could hardly have called it a 'Great Awakening' when they basically founded modern Fundamentalism if the country had already *been* that way, could they?

We have the words of our own Founding fathers to show that they were Deists, and to the extent they were Christian, they had a very different view of what this meant than you and the Religious Right do.

On this:

"Concerning prayer to Mother Earth.

Mother Earth is an unthreatening deity...provided you're not getting Tsunami'd or Earthquaked then Mother Earth doesn't pass judgment. In fact we have the authority and the power to kill her. She's not a God, she is an unthreatening idol formed to appease your conscience."

Anyway, accepting for the moment that this reasoning is totally-off base, I think it shows your priorities: who can kill who.

Unthreatening, you say, (apart of course for tsunamis and earthquakes you mention in the same breath,) ...'Passing judgement,' you say, (in the way of your lawgiver-God isn't how She's seen, of course,) ...but these are problems of *your* religion, not ours.

'We can kill Mother Earth,' you say, (interesting coming from a Creationist and thus, I believe, a climate-change denier? ) ...but this isn't so, actually. We can conceivably destroy the biosphere hospitable to *us,* but Earth and the Goddess, would live on.

Actually, it's Christians who believe that Earth is totally under the control of their book-God who usually have a problem with not seeing the effects of our actions as 'threatening' enough... and also who have the religious crises when a tsunami strikes a shoreline they thought he was supposed to have 'dominion over' (usually after laughing at the native peoples who know where and how to build houses, and what it means when the water recedes suddenly.)

No, we're not as terrified of death as you are, because we see it in the context of cycles of life, death and rebirth, not some artificial one-time process stuck on an incomprehensible artifact of a world.

"The problem with the idol worship in this country has been relegated to a me-experience...the same as everything else we do. "How does that make you feel? Who is God to you? How can my God make my life better for me?"

And what would you know of it, anyway? You speak from ignorance of our ways and then try to cast us as doing something we're not... Yet you're the one appealing to self-interest in the form of trying to get us to fear for our personal souls in the face of your jealous God.

Earth is to us, a living embodiment of the Goddess, not an 'idol,' (We're so often accused of worshipping things and statues because that's what your *book* says we do. Your book is *wrong* on this. Sorry. )

Frankly, you're the one I find selfish: you want everyone to obey *you* so *you* can feel like your world is under your God's control, and that *your* soul will be rewarded.

You, you, you.

You're the one who needs to believe that we don't find 'God' in nature and myth and our own experiences and traditions.

Again, this is self-centered of you.

As for what we do and believe and experience, you demonstrate you know nothing of it, yet expect to have your way over us.

Again, that's all about *you.*

Not us.

As for the planet's limited (though on the order of billions of years, yet) lifespan, well, this is entirely consistent with our view of a cyclic universe... Death and rebirth. We're just not the ones who seem to deal with personal death by freaking out about (or even seemingly trying to *cause* ) the end of the world 'right around the corner' as Christians have believed for some eighteen hundred years.

Personally, I think that's about as self-centered as it gets.

It's a big universe, though: life does go on, even if we screw up our home for ourselves.

We accept our place within it.

Great posts, my sisters! I fear they will be ignored by Canyon, tho. He is walking in the world of blue-white, and cannot, or will not, see the beautiful colors all around him.

You know, one thing about Christian theology has always confused me. Man is supposed to be such a nasty and vile creature that "God" tried to wash him off the face of this sweet earth, but he is considered worthy enough to have dominion over his brothers, the animals, who bear no sin. Huh??

Canyon:
**Mother Earth is an unthreatening deity...provided you're not getting Tsunami'd or Earthquaked then Mother Earth doesn't pass judgment.**

Tsunamis and earthquakes are not judgement - they are meteorologicl and geological phenomena. While pollution generated by us does hae an efect on weather patterns, tsunamis and earthquakes would happen even if human beings had never evolved.

**In fact we have the authority and the power to kill her.**

We have the ability, but not the authority to destroy the planet. But it would mean our own destruction as well.

**She's not a God, she is an unthreatening idol formed to appease your conscience.**

She's not a deity to you, and that's fine for you. Jesus is not a deity to me, and that's fine for me.

**In reality worshipping this big ball of dirt is as worthwhile as worshipping the imaginary god Krishna or his crony Arjuna.**

According to your religion, that is.

**The problem with the idol worship in this country has been relegated to a me-experience...the same as everything else we do. "How does that make you feel? Who is God to you? How can my God make my life better for me?"**

All religious experiences are subjective. Even among people of the same faith, memebers of the same church, if you ask each one to describe their relationship with the Divine, no two responses would be the same.

**If this religion weren't our state religion, forced down our childrens throats, it would be dead by now.**

Paganism is now the established state religion? When did this happen, and why was I not informed? How soon can I expect to see "Blessed be." stamped on all our currency?

**What we should be doing is finding out who God is and what He has revealed to us. We know through our interactions on earth, that if we're a social people, created in God's image, then God is a communicating God. When we go to the Bible and find out that He has told us how to deal with ANY situation we might encounter, that He is concerned with our affairs.**

The Divine reveals hims/her/itself to different people in different ways. Some people find guidance in the Bible or other scriptures, some find it in the land, some find it in science, some find it within themselves. As long as it leads you to behave ethically, it's all good.

**He subjected Himself to life as a man, exposed to every temptation we could face, we know that He is a relational God.**

These events are recorded nowhere except in your scriptures. You beleive them - fine for you. Not everyone does - fine for the rest of us.

**Death exists, despite no scientific evidence for its cause or cure, which shows us that God is a wrathful God and will not suffer sin nor those who willfully sin.**

Death exists, not as evidence of divine wrath, but as a natural phenomenon and part of the cycle of life. Think about it a minute - if living things kept reproducing and none of them ever died, the planet would not be able to sustain them all. Or as Stephen Wright put it, "You can't have everything. Where would you put it?"

**God loves us, this we know, because He came to earth and died in our place. Love hath no greater man than this, that would lay down his life for his friends. The God of the Universe, in a sovereign existence redeemed us to Himself, He is a redeeming God.**

According to your scriptures, your god was the one who set up the conditions of the so-called fall of man to begin with. He has to own part of the blame for it.

**Or we can worship a rock which loves us because it provides food and air and usually doesn't knock our bridges down.**

She doesn't "knock our bridges down." She does not target specific items or locations. Often, we set our own structures up to be knocked down by damaging the substrate upon which they are built, or by building them in locations that just aren't suitable. If you're going to insist on building your house on the San Adreas fault, then don't say Mama Nature knocked down your house when an earthquake destroys it. Mama Nature didn't target your house for demolition - you did.

**Mother Earth won't judge you, she has been appointed a day when she will be burned up; lest you repent, you shall likewise perish.**

Again, only according to your scriptures, which are fine for you if you believe them, but I find the concept of eternal damnation too illogical to believe, and I certainly don't see that I have done anything that would merit such punishment, so I don't see that repentance is needed.

Terra,

Thanks for the concern...but I don't need joy, see Galatians chapter 5.

What we need is salvation, you've got my prayers.

\O ancient Mother of all living things,
Source of unending bounty and abundance,
Thy strength and beauty nurtures all:
The carpet of life that unfolds from the soil,
The beasts that walk under the sun,
The fish that moves in the deep,
The birds that glide through the air;
All these are thy children.
May all who stand here witness and understand
The nature of the most ancient mother of the gods.

Earth beneath my dusty feet,
The silent sky a distant blue;
However fast I run,
However high I climb,
However far I fly,
My feet will bring me back to you.

Earth beneath my calloused hands,
The bright sun warms my body through;
However hard I work,
However hard I toil,
However much I reap,
My life will call me back to you.

Earth beneath my sleeping head,
The stars above like silver dew;
However long I sleep,
However far I roam,
However deep I dream,
My heart will take me back to you.

anon

Canyon Shearer:
Prayer for the souls of On-Faith:

Heavenly Father, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,

We come to you in the name of Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace and the Lord of Lords, the only mediator between God and man.

We are continuing the good fight of faith and we thank You for your faithfulness in supporting us and forgiving us our transgression as we forgive our transgressors. We are sorry, Lord, for allowing this great and beautiful nation which You have given us to fall into such terrible disrepair and for allowing the godless to think they have any inheritence in Your kingdom.

Lord, I thank You for the clear command to pray unceasingly and I beseech you to remind those of the world who persecute us that we have the right to pray wherever and whenever we want.

God, I ask You that when they are offended by our prayers that the search inside themselves to realize the reason they are offended is because Your's in the only religion that is true and the only way to Heaven.

I ask that You grant to every single On-Faith reader repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth; that they might know You, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

For Yours is the power and the glory and the kingdom, forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and at the end of all the forevers.

Then, Amen.
----------
Oh well I thank you Shearer..I really appreciate the prayer. I will return the favor.

Oh Blessed and Mighty Pan,
God of joy, music and the forests...be with your son Shearer...he is in need of joy and some of your other activeties...show him your way ...Lead him to your path and let him also find a leafy bower that he too might adore the beauty of Phyche.

Alow your son, Shearer to understand that we all, as Americans, have the right to demand respect for our beliefs...as we respect his.

I ask this in the name of Libertas and Janus
So Mote it be...

Concerning prayer to Mother Earth.

Mother Earth is an unthreatening deity...provided you're not getting Tsunami'd or Earthquaked then Mother Earth doesn't pass judgment. In fact we have the authority and the power to kill her. She's not a God, she is an unthreatening idol formed to appease your conscience.

In reality worshipping this big ball of dirt is as worthwhile as worshipping the imaginary god Krishna or his crony Arjuna.

The problem with the idol worship in this country has been relegated to a me-experience...the same as everything else we do. "How does that make you feel? Who is God to you? How can my God make my life better for me?" If this religion weren't our state religion, forced down our childrens throats, it would be dead by now. What we should be doing is finding out who God is and what He has revealed to us. We know through our interactions on earth, that if we're a social people, created in God's image, then God is a communicating God. When we go to the Bible and find out that He has told us how to deal with ANY situation we might encounter, that He is concerned with our affairs. He subjected Himself to life as a man, exposed to every temptation we could face, we know that He is a relational God. Death exists, despite no scientific evidence for its cause or cure, which shows us that God is a wrathful God and will not suffer sin nor those who willfully sin.

God loves us, this we know, because He came to earth and died in our place. Love hath no greater man than this, that would lay down his life for his friends. The God of the Universe, in a sovereign existence redeemed us to Himself, He is a redeeming God.

Or we can worship a rock which loves us because it provides food and air and usually doesn't knock our bridges down. Mother Earth won't judge you, she has been appointed a day when she will be burned up; lest you repent, you shall likewise perish.

trustobey.blogspot.com

Well, sorry about the triple post, but good things do come in threes. :-)

In the spirit of your post, Canyon, let us pray:

Dona Nobis Pacem

Lady of Peace who hears the cries of the world
Extend your power through me and with me;
Bless those in harms way.
Bless those who are suffering.
Bless those who are dying.
Bless the lost unknowing dead.
Bless those who love.
Bless those who are helping.
Bless those who are scared.
Bless those who can do nothing but wait.
Bless those who are falsely suspected.
Bless those of limited understanding.
Bless those upholding civil liberties.
Bless those who, though well intentioned, do wrong.
Bless the Ancestors
who love and hold us dear;
may we feel their comfort, too.
Bless those who work and pray for peace
throughout the good, green Mother Earth.
Bless us all, hold us safe within your embrace.

So Be It!

Canyon, in the spirit of your post, here is a prayer, posted by Patti here: http://www.visionofunity.com/thoughtsonpeace.html

Lady of Peace who hears the cries of the world
Extend your power through me and with me;
Bless those in harms way.
Bless those who are suffering.
Bless those who are dying.
Bless the lost unknowing dead.
Bless those who love.
Bless those who are helping.
Bless those who are scared.
Bless those who can do nothing but wait.
Bless those who are falsely suspected.
Bless those of limited understanding.
Bless those upholding civil liberties.
Bless those who, though well intentioned, do wrong.
Bless the Ancestors
who love and hold us dear;
may we feel their comfort, too.
Bless those who work and pray for peace
throughout the good, green Mother Earth.
Bless us all, hold us safe within your embrace.

So Mote It Be!

Canyon, in the spirit of your post, here is a prayer, posted by Patti here: http://www.visionofunity.com/thoughtsonpeace.html

Lady of Peace who hears the cries of the world
Extend your power through me and with me;
Bless those in harms way.
Bless those who are suffering.
Bless those who are dying.
Bless the lost unknowing dead.
Bless those who love.
Bless those who are helping.
Bless those who are scared.
Bless those who can do nothing but wait.
Bless those who are falsely suspected.
Bless those of limited understanding.
Bless those upholding civil liberties.
Bless those who, though well intentioned, do wrong.
Bless the Ancestors
who love and hold us dear;
may we feel their comfort, too.
Bless those who work and pray for peace
throughout the good, green Mother Earth.
Bless us all, hold us safe within your embrace.

So Mote It Be!

Tsk, Canyon, you're just saying how Unamerican your 'kingdom' is.

Canyon:
"Although, prayer should be mandated in public schools, and especially in government functions,"

That's going to get really intersting, since I usually burn incense and/or candles when I pray. Does this mean that my daughter will have to bring a censer, incense,and matches to school with her every day? Should I bring candles and matches to school board meetings?

My husbandd begins his prayers by kneeling, bowing, and clapping. Should we make sure to bring a small mat with us to town meetings so that he doesn't get the knees of his slacks dirty if the floor isn't clean?

Touche, Tim,

Although, prayer should be mandated in public schools, and especially in government functions, see Mr. Franklin's quote above. When we pray we are seeking to come closer to God, to determine God's will in difficult situations, and become holier in our endeavors.

All things that the government is in desperate need to do, and how many times do you think Hui-Cho Sueng prayed in public school? There is an indisputable link between school shootings and lives devoid of spirituality.

When I pray in public it is partly to fulfill the wishes of the Founding Fathers for invocation, and partly in order to remind people that it is appointed once for a man to die and then the judgment.

Prayer has become two different things, prayer closets are for meditation with divine input and asking Heavenly counsel, while public prayers for invocation and benediction are a tangible reminder of an invisible God; sort of a weak evangelistic effort.

Thank you Canyon. Good prayer and point made. But I still say leave it is mostly a private matter and to be left out of public school and out of government functions. God Bless.

Mathew 6:5

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, either will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Prayer for the souls of On-Faith:

Heavenly Father, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,

We come to you in the name of Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace and the Lord of Lords, the only mediator between God and man.

We are continuing the good fight of faith and we thank You for your faithfulness in supporting us and forgiving us our transgression as we forgive our transgressors. We are sorry, Lord, for allowing this great and beautiful nation which You have given us to fall into such terrible disrepair and for allowing the godless to think they have any inheritence in Your kingdom.

Lord, I thank You for the clear command to pray unceasingly and I beseech you to remind those of the world who persecute us that we have the right to pray wherever and whenever we want.

God, I ask You that when they are offended by our prayers that the search inside themselves to realize the reason they are offended is because Your's in the only religion that is true and the only way to Heaven.

I ask that You grant to every single On-Faith reader repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth; that they might know You, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

For Yours is the power and the glory and the kingdom, forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and at the end of all the forevers.

Then, Amen.

Last month, a Hindu chaplain opened the U.S. Senate with prayer. Some critics say that violated "One Nation Under God," others church-state separation. What do you think?

Does it violate church and state separation - probably. Does it violate one nation under God - well, is this even some kind of legal principle or public policy we follow? It would have been nice if one of the panelist had address this part of the question.

Prayer should be a private matter. Pray in your home. Pray over dinner and with your family. Pray with your wife and your children. Pray in your church. Pray at your private school where everyone presumably holds the same beliefs. Pray at your wedding, if you like. Have someone say prayers at your funeral. But don't pray in public schools or at government functions. You are bound to offend someone. Just don't do it.

You can even offend people when you pray in your own home. This happened to me when I prayed at my house over dinner and we had some guests who were atheists. Well, I said to them: "where is your so called tolerance for my beliefs when expressed even in my own house!" They were offended and disgusted by my prayer and I don't think they will be back. That's OK because it is in my house but in public people don't have the choice sometimes and they should not have to listen to me or anyone else on the government dime. I don't wnat to have to listen to some Muslim or Hindu and they should not have to listen to me either.

Leigh:
"
**They would not accept that this "freedom" included Islam, Hinduism, Buddhist, etc.**

Really? Then how do you explin theses words from Jefferson?
"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

**You have to remember, the settlers FORCED the Indians to covert in many cases, or they certainly brought the Gospel to them to try to convert them. Why because they felt they should be Christian, sure doesn't sound like this "freedom" everyone runs around quoting. In addition, if they owned slaves, the slaves were FORCED to give up their native religions. Heavens, they burned witches at the stake, even if they simply thought you were a witch. Doesn't sound to me like this "Freedom" everyone talks about.**
Surely you don't believe that sword/gun-point "conversions" are a good idea? And by the way, no one sincerely changes their religious beliefs by being threatened with death if they don't, although they may pay lip service to the religion of their oppressors in order to preserve their lives.

**the problem I have is not being able to call my nation what it is, what is was founded as,” One Nation Under the Judeo-Christian GOD".**
Under God was added to the pledge in the 1950's. It was not in any founding document. And the Judeo-Christian god is not mentioned by name in either the Constitution or the Declaration.

**Not being able to worship as a Christian w/out being blasted every 5 minutes by someone who is "offended". Interesting how we are tolerant of every other religion but any thing "Christian" is offensive, talk about double standard.**
Worship as you please - and remember that those of us who don't share your god have the same right. It wasn't a group of Hindus who shouted rude comments during a Christian prayer, now was it? And surely you don't consider interrupting and shouting down other people's prayers to be an act of worship. At least, I hope you don't.

I love how we all "invoke" separation of Church and State like it is "Gospel". See, in America, we don't bother to learn why/where sayings come from. If we did then we would use them correctly. Ok before the hate email starts, except this disclaimer: I am speaking on a fact (do your research, even though it also reflects how I feel).

First, you must remember the United States was founded as a Christian Nation. Our beliefs were based on the Judeo-Christian Doctrine.

When the founding fathers came, they were all CHRISTIAN. They set up our rule of law based on the MOSAIC law; for those of you who do not know what this means, it based on the laws of Moses, you know, Jewish guy, 10 commandments, first five books of the Bible, parted the Red Sea, blah blah blah, yeah that guy.

Second, the purpose was to come here to worship freely as CHRISTIANS, as the King of England allowed only ONE CHURCH. The founders wanted to be able to worship as Baptists, Protestants, Quakers etc. The purpose of "separation of Church and state" is so that no one CHRISTIAN Doctrine was enforced. The Founding fathers knew all the people who came from England, worshiped ONE GOD - the God of the Christians.

Third, sorry to tell you but the founding fathers are rolling over in their graves at what America has become. They NEVER intend our country to have the "Freedom" of religion as we use it today. They would not accept that this "freedom" included Islam, Hinduism, Buddhist, etc. Let me finish before you send the hate email. You have to remember, the settlers FORCED the Indians to covert in many cases, or they certainly brought the Gospel to them to try to convert them. Why because they felt they should be Christian, sure doesn't sound like this "freedom" everyone runs around quoting. In addition, if they owned slaves, the slaves were FORCED to give up their native religions. Heavens, they burned witches at the stake, even if they simply thought you were a witch. Doesn't sound to me like this "Freedom" everyone talks about.

So, to sum this up. We are a Christian Nation, UNDER the Judeo- Christian GOD, who follow (or should be) the established Mosaic laws, based on the desires of the Founding Fathers who EXPECTED & BELIEVED we were all CHRISTIANS, and wanted us to be FREE to WORSHIP the GOD of the Bible, not the god of the Quran (not the same god by the way) or any other holy book ( though many of the founders read the Quran - great piece of literature) you may want to re-read the 1st commandment.

Face it we are (or at least were at inception) a Christian Nation. KSA & Iran can say they are Muslim, I have no problem w/that, the problem I have is not being able to call my nation what it is, what is was founded as,” One Nation Under the Judeo-Christian GOD". Not being able to worship as a Christian w/out being blasted every 5 minutes by someone who is "offended". Interesting how we are tolerant of every other religion but any thing "Christian" is offensive, talk about double standard.

So I wish you all would use this "separation of Church & State" correctly, but of course you can't it would not fit w/your secularist agenda.

I love how we all "invoke" separation of Church and State like it is "Gospel". See, in America, we don't bother to learn why/where sayings come from. If we did then we would use them correctly. Ok before the hate email starts, except this disclaimer: I am speaking on a fact (do your research, even though it also reflects how I feel).

First, you must remember the United States was founded as a Christian Nation. Our beliefs were based on the Judeo-Christian Doctrine.

When the founding fathers came, they were all CHRISTIAN. They set up our rule of law based on the MOSAIC law; for those of you who do not know what this means, it based on the laws of Moses, you know, Jewish guy, 10 commandments, first five books of the Bible, parted the Red Sea, blah blah blah, yeah that guy.

Second, the purpose was to come here to worship freely as CHRISTIANS, as the King of England allowed only ONE CHURCH. The founders wanted to be able to worship as Baptists, Protestants, Quakers etc. The purpose of "separation of Church and state" is so that no one CHRISTIAN Doctrine was enforced. The Founding fathers knew all the people who came from England, worshiped ONE GOD - the God of the Christians.

Third, sorry to tell you but the founding fathers are rolling over in their graves at what America has become. They NEVER intend our country to have the "Freedom" of religion as we use it today. They would not accept that this "freedom" included Islam, Hinduism, Buddhist, etc. Let me finish before you send the hate email. You have to remember, the settlers FORCED the Indians to covert in many cases, or they certainly brought the Gospel to them to try to convert them. Why because they felt they should be Christian, sure doesn't sound like this "freedom" everyone runs around quoting. In addition, if they owned slaves, the slaves were FORCED to give up their native religions. Heavens, they burned witches at the stake, even if they simply thought you were a witch. Doesn't sound to me like this "Freedom" everyone talks about.

So, to sum this up. We are a Christian Nation, UNDER the Judeo- Christian GOD, who follow (or should be) the established Mosaic laws, based on the desires of the Founding Fathers who EXPECTED & BELIEVED we were all CHRISTIANS, and wanted us to be FREE to WORSHIP the GOD of the Bible, not the god of the Quran (not the same god by the way) or any other holy book ( though many of the founders read the Quran - great piece of literature) you may want to re-read the 1st commandment.

Face it we are (or at least were at inception) a Christian Nation. KSA & Iran can say they are Muslim, I have no problem w/that, the problem I have is not being able to call my nation what it is, what is was founded as,” One Nation Under the Judeo-Christian GOD". Not being able to worship as a Christian w/out being blasted every 5 minutes by someone who is "offended". Interesting how we are tolerant of every other religion but any thing "Christian" is offensive, talk about double standard.

So I wish you all would use this "separation of Church & State" correctly, but of course you can't it would not fit w/your secularist agenda.

Err, what?

california condor:

The word is interpret. Now exactly what does that mean? I mean, parse the words. Jefferson was a pious man wasn't he? Canyon Shearer seems to think Franklin was too pious like Jefferson, can't see the political use of faith by one with the faith of Regan, none at all. Oops! Forgot Regan's high reliance on astrological charts. Jefferson did say superstition?

Take the money away and it will go away. Maybe the tax breaks is enough. Constitutional? Tax breaks for religion doesn't establish religion. Oh well, chaplain in the senate says it all, superstition.

Hindus do have it all wrong don't they, what God really wants but can't manage without help from people? In the end the religion that offers the most comfortable seats and the most casino type gambling will win, become the national faith. They do pray hard before the big poker tournament and for good reason. Ask Paganplace if you don't believe me. Anyone know which church Chris Moneymaker attends? How about "Jesus" Furgeson, not a Jew is he, like Jesus Christ?

Voltaire

If your point is that Voltaire was wrong and religion will go on forever,then I disagree.
Except for arrival of Islam in our brave new world
religion is on its knees,and will surely die.
Islam certainly complicates things,and may be the death of us all,but failing that,the modern world will push ahead,and eventually religion will go the way of astrology and sorcery,and other irrational
and ancient superstitions.

I am abandoned by God and man! I will give you half of what I am worth if you will give me six months’ life. Then I shall go to hell; and you will go with me. O Christ! O Jesus Christ!

Another century and there will not be a Bible on earth!

Providing we don't get blown up first,the modern world will continue to move ahead,slowly,bit by bit.
Religion will eventually be discarded like an old snake's skin.It will be left behind,to be studied in mythology classes at school.
People of the future will look back in amusement
at these superstitious times,where intelligent well educated men would blow themselves up believing a god in a fairyland called Paradise would reward them with everlasting life and bundles of virgins. And a president in the White House believed
he talked to a god who advised him to invade Iraq.
We have to have faith in a future without religion,because while religion would hold us back, forward momentum is unstoppable.Look at history.
Religion eventually gets out of the way, becomes marginalized,and dies.
But we may get blown up first if the wackos get
their hands on the big one.

Canyon:
"What makes me the most angry is that the Hindu prayer didn't even begin to address God. The fancy words used had as much merit as, "Please, Bessie the Moo-Cow, please help us govern this nation in our time of turmoil."

did you actually hear or read the prayer?
It most certainly addressed God.

"But when we substitute an idol for Him, that is all the more insulting. Brahma cannot forgive sins, he doesn't care about the affairs of men, he is a big squishy, imaginary god."

How can you be sure it isn't your god who is big, squishy, and imaginary?

"But the God of the Universe must be considered, because not only does He have the capability to kill the body, but He has the authority and the right to throw the soul into hell."

Your scriptures say he has that right. Other books with just as much authority for their believers, say otherwise.

"Just as the millions of gods created in human history cannot forgive sins, this is why the Hindu prayer is so blasphemous."

Blasphemy is relative. I'm not Hindu, and I found absolutley nothing objectionable about the prayer.

"This is why the Hindu prayer was so blasphemous, we have no reason to believe in these transcendent 330 Million gods."

No one is asking you to believe it. No one was asking the rude people in the gallery to believe it. They were only asked to comport themselves with common courtesy, and this was apparently beyond their abilities.

Considering who Benjamin Franklin would pray to, perhaps we should ask him:

"How has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine Protection. -- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance.

I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men.

I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service." - Ben Franklin to the Constitutional Convention, 1787

Benjamin Franklin knew that praying to idols is a vain endeavor, and that God would not be invoked during a Hindu prayer.

There are 330 Million Hindu god's...enough for every person in the United States to have their own.

What makes me the most angry is that the Hindu prayer didn't even begin to address God. The fancy words used had as much merit as, "Please, Bessie the Moo-Cow, please help us govern this nation in our time of turmoil."

The idols formed by the Hindus are formed for a reason, because the true God is too threatening, too concerned with righteousness, and too strict in the affairs of men. Thou Shalt Not Have Other gods (1 or 330 Million) Before Him.

We are guilty of this in the christianist religions just as the Hindu religions. We are guilty before the God of the Universe, we know this because our conscience bears record that when we tell a lie, we have transgressed the laws of the universe, when we steal something, we are breaking some universal rule, when we look with lust we sin against heaven, when we hate someone we break the 2nd most important Commandment, "Love your neighbor as yourself." We have shaken our fist at God by transgressing His immutable laws.

But when we substitute an idol for Him, that is all the more insulting. Brahma cannot forgive sins, he doesn't care about the affairs of men, he is a big squishy, imaginary god. But the God of the Universe must be considered, because not only does He have the capability to kill the body, but He has the authority and the right to throw the soul into hell.

Just as the millions of gods created in human history cannot forgive sins, this is why the Hindu prayer is so blasphemous. The Hindu Chaplain is appealing through his dress and his words that our God is unknowable and therefore we are not accountable.

Consider then that God has said, "This is eternal life, that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, who Thou hast sent."

Our God knows the thoughts of the hearts, and as such will punish lawbreakers.

But because God is knowable, and is not willing that any should perish, He made a way for us to be forgiven. God became manifest in the flesh as the man Jesus Christ. He subjected Himself to the destroyed and desolate world that He created but we have ruined, where He lived a perfect sinless life. He willingly gave Himself up to be hung on a cross in our place. We were appointed once to die and then the judgment, but Jesus took our judgment on the cross, He was punished and He died in our stead.

But not only so, but after succumbing to death, the greatest enemy of mankind since the beginning of time, Jesus rose from the grave on the 3rd day, He defeated death so your soul will never die.

In order to receive this price paid with the life-blood of Jesus Christ, God demands that you repent of your sins and receive the gift of everlasting life made possible by the death and resurrection.

This is why the Hindu prayer was so blasphemous, we have no reason to believe in these transcendent 330 Million gods. If you'll repent and put your trust in Jesus Christ, you will be given a new heart, know that you are forgiven, and your life will be transformed so that you hate sin and love life. This we know, this Benjamin Franklin knew, and this is why it is important we appeal to the true God for our every need.

Let us give a chance to every one who wants to contribute to the morning prayers at the house.

The most sacred prayer is the cry of a new born,or the sigh of an anguished mother.

Much to do about nothing.

1. Half the members don't listen to the prayer.
2. Half are not even there.
3. Half the conservatives screaming for school prayer don't even pray at home.
4. I am very active in my Church. I can pray anywhere I want and it doesn't have to be vocal or have an audience. Those who scream that not permitting school prayers is keeping God out of the schools just don't understand the God.
5. If a member of a faith other than mine is offering a prayer, I can say Amen depending on the content of the prayer or just choose not to listen.
6. This is just another right-wing wedge issue.

There was sentiment among the Founders against establishment of a chaplaincy on Capitol Hill. Said Thomas Jefferson, "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology." Praying ostentatiously for enlightenment and salvation to a supreme being or beings of some sort may no longer be appropriate in an age that depends on science to get us out of the morass in which age-old habits, instincts and hatreds keep us mired. Why not just let Congressmen who want to pray do so in the privacy or their own homes rather than flaunting their alleged piety and "faithiness" in the public forum? Isn't that what Jesus advised. The Bible tells us so.

It's CapitOl Hill.

When the subject gets dull the sharp find something else to talk about. That would be the sharp tongued in this case.

This is "evidance" of a lame and inappropriate post.

Aug 1, 08:53
Finally, The Smoking Gun

One of the most fascinating exhibits presented by the prosecution in the Holy Land Foundation case (provided by researchers for the NEFA Foundation) is a memorandum on the Muslim Brotherhood’s multifaceted plan to convert the United States to an Islamic nation. It is the smoking gun of the Ikhwan’s long-standing efforts to destroy the Western world as we know it.

The most interesting exhibit is a Muslim Brotherhood memorandum by Mohamed Akram, dated May 22, 1991, where he outlines the Ikhwan vision of the future. He leaves no ambiguity as to the nature of the Ikhwan calling. (The exhibits will be posted and written about more completely in the NEFA website in coming days).

Under the heading “Understanding the role of the Muslim Brother in North America,” he writes:

“The process of settlement is a ‘Civilization-Jihadist Process’ with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated ad God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.”

But wait, there is more:

“Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim’s destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who chose to slack.”

Akram then spells out in some detail the role of the Brotherhood in moving the project forward: “As for the role of the Ikhwan, it is the initiative, pioneering, leadership, raising the banner and pushing people in that direction (the Jihadist process). They are then able to employ, direct, and unify Muslims’ efforts and powers for this process. In order to do that, we must possess a master of the art of ‘coalitions,’ the art of ‘absorption’ and the principles of ‘cooperation.’”

The document then gives rationale for setting up Ikhwan organizations across the country: “We must say that we are in a country which understands no language other than the language of the organizations, and one which does not respect or give weight to any group without effective, functional and strong organizations.”

The document also deals with the criticism among the Brothers that the focus on the United States will drain support for the establishment of the global caliphate. The response is two-fold:
1) “The success of the Movement in America in establishing an observant Islamic base with power and effectiveness will be the the best support and aid to the global Movement project.”
2) The global (Ikhwan) movement has not “succeeded yet in distributing roles to is branches, stating that what is needed from them as one of the participants or contributors to the project to establish the global Islamic state. The day this happens, the children of the American Ikhwani branch will have a far-reaching impact and positions that make the ancestors proud.”

The document ends with a list of Ikhwan groups trying to coordinate, including all the usual (ISNA, ICNA, IIIT etc.)

What is so interesting about the document is the breadth of ambition, the conviction of ultimate success and the care with which the campaign we see today was being thought about 16 years ago. So is the the clarity of the ultimate objective of ending our years as a functioning democracy, built on the rule of secular law, minority rights and freedom of religion, press etc.

The infiltration of the government by members and sympathizers, the coordinated role of the organizations in pursuing specific objectives, the recruitment of the best and the brightest into the movement, and other objectives are far advanced, perhaps further than the author could have imagined in so short a time.

The rationale, for those like Lieken et al who want play footsie with these groups bent on our destruction, is truly mindboggling. I don’t think the Brothers who have been on the cusp of the new PR campaign, from Ramadan to Akef, have bothered to spell this out like the Brothers do for themselves.

But here we have it, in their own words, written by their own hands. There is much more to say, and I will revisit the topic as more information comes in.

Will anyone pay attention?

posted by Douglas Farah

Someone has to quietly and calmly present the evidance you have shown, without name calling where ever Ikhwan forces choose to speak in the US.

Ikhwan spokesman then have 3 choices:

-deny and call you names

-change the subject abruptly

-question your integrity

But either way this information is