All Comments (33)

I have a deep passion for Buddhism and through my studies I came across Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche IX. He is the President and Spiritual Director of Kagyu E-Vam Buddhist Institute located in Melbourne, Australia and the Hudson Valley, New York. I am looking forward to meeting him this summer. He is speaking at The Chautauqua Institution, the week of July 9-13.

Chautauqua is a great place to vacation. I am looking forward to the chance to meet the spiritual director. If you are interested in discussing how the western world is engaging Buddhism, I recommend you check out the schedule. For further information you can review the program brochure located at: http://www.ciweb.org/SUMMERatchautauqua_web.pdf

Have a great summer; I hope to meet some of you!

I am a Christian high school student and I attend a small Christian school. Though I am sure many may not agree with me, I think that a person can follow the ways of Buddhism and other such principles to a certain extent. Though I am not a Buddhist Christian, I do know a few. They believe in some basic Buddhist philosophy. This includes on the philosophy of living a peaceful life. "Even death is not to be feared by those who live wisely"- Buddha. Buddha was all about living a life without suffering and sorrow. I believe it is quite possible for someone to try to live by these philosophies without jeopardizing their Christian faith. This is as long as they do not begin to worship Buddha himself. Buddhism is often viewed as a religion in itself. This is the reason why so many people believe that it is not possible for one to believe in both Christianity and Buddhism at the same time. The Christian Buddhists that I know do not make Buddha an idol in any way. They only respect the man that he was, like they respect a man like Ghandi.

still youre concentrating on the start of the catholic church-
technically jesus(ata) was from israel, and his followers were the lost sheep of israel that he came to shepherd, but christianity itself started with the congregations which were all in turkey.
Jesus(ata) never heard of christianity, nor did his disciples. even before thomas came to india.

and as far as people be allowing to identiy themselves as they want, turkish people do not identify with the east or the west.

ask any turk anywhere, and theyll tell you the same thing.

but the real issue is, why is it important that credit go to the east?
would that mean that westerners have no claim on their religion of christianity?

by that token, we should actually credit the cradle of civilization for the start of mankind itself-

we can make divisions, follow themup with sub divisions, and more subdivisions-

but that is the exact opposite of the message here.

the message is plurality and inclusiveness-
commonality and the glues that bind us together as humans.
these territorial distinctions havent done much to weld humanity as a cohesive whole in the past, rather they seem to divide people along artificial lines and barriers.

were trying to break down these walls that are separating us, not solidify them.

im glad your tradition and history gives you such a close and strong connection to your christian roots.

the planets getting smaller every day, im lucky to have a safe place to be in it, im grateful that
i can be who i am in peace and freedom.
i feel confident that i can practice my religion,and that in so doing i am not preventing anyone else from pursuing their own path to god-
my success in this matter doesnt mean that anyone else is unsuccessful, or my win isnt someone elses loss.

i have an imaginary sculpture in my mind that looks like this- its a spiritual sculpture of you will- and it looks like this-

as a human i can only envision things in physical dimensions, so i create a hierarchy in which up is good (not an original thought i admit)

im reaching down to help the person who has the atoms weight less hope than me- and they in turn reach down ad infinitum- i give my strength and support to them etc... but i am also reaching up and grasping the hand of the one whose atoms weight of faith and love are greater than mine- and they support and uplift me ad infinitum-

so lateral movement isnt interesting to me anymore

i have a personal philosophy that i made up years ago- i am anti-competition
my god isnt poor, and theres more than enough to go around.

well, its just my thoughts im not even sure what the point was, i guess that was it.
peace

I was ONLY referring to where religions originated, not where God is present. God is present as much in the black hole and the stars as He is present anywhere else. The thought that all religions are Eastern occured to me because Mr Patel mentioned Eastern spiritual traditions.

I have heard Buddhism and Hinduism being referred to as Eastern religions many times with the implication that Christianity and Judaism are Western religions. But if it merely means that most of the adherents of Christianity and Judaism live in the West, and also because Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Europe, then it is a different matter. Christianity didn't start in Turkey, unless of course Israel is situated in Turkey. I mentioned that Turkey is in the Orient, (I did not mention Middle East), even if it is a bridge between the East and West.

Just so that we have some real facts and figures:

"Turkey's area, inclusive of lakes, occupies 779,452 square kilometres (300,948 sq miles), of which 755,688 square kilometres (291,773 sq miles) are in Southwest Asia and 23,764 square kilometres (9,174 sq miles) in Europe, thus making Turkey a transcontinental country."

Only a very tiny portion of Turkey is physically located in the West and it is probably on that basis that Turkey has applied for entry as full member state in the EU.

“The Emperor Constantine I was the sole ruler of the Roman world between 324 and 337 C.E. His reign was likely the most crucial of all the Roman emperors in determining the future course of western civilization. Constantine began the process of making Christianity the religious foundation of Europe.

During the early history of Christianity five cities became particularly important for the church: Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, Jerusalem and Rome. Antioch was one of the first cities to be evangelised by Christian missionaries and it was there that the followers of Christ acquired the name Christian (Acts 11:26). The church in Alexandria was, according to tradition, founded by Mark the Evangelist. Constantinople, founded on the ancient city of Byzantium, became the capital of the new pro-Christian empire under Constantine. Jerusalem was at the heart of Christ's ministry and the place of his crucifixion, burial, resurrection and ascension. And it was in Rome that St Paul was martyred under Nero and where, tradition claims, the apostle Peter was martyred.
The stature of these cities, combined with their cultural and political importance for the empire, made them obvious candidates as administrative centres for the church following the edict of toleration of 313. In 325 the Christian emperor, Constantine, called the Council of Nicaea with the purpose of resolving the dispute between the Arian and Orthodox Christians on the divine status of the Son. It was at Nicaea that Antioch, Alexandria and Rome were singled out as the three great centres of the Christian world. The second ecumenical council, held in Constantinople in 381, made Constantinople a patriarchate and assigned to it second place in importance after Rome. The third ecumenical council, held at Ephesus, made the island of Cyprus autocephalous (that is, self-governing). The fourth ecumenical council, held at Chalcedon, made Jerusalem a patriarchate. The order of the patriarchates in terms of importance were Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, each of which had jurisdiction over large parts of the empire.”

Apostle Thomas came to Kerala, India in 52 AD, only nineteen years after the Resurrection of Jesus, and my Hindu ancestors were converted at that time by him. The Christianity Apostle Thomas brought to Kerala, which has survived to this day, had nothing to do with Turkey or Rome.

the codifying was a side point- the apostles went to turkey and formed the first congregations-
turks today, if you ask them (i just did actually) take pride in being the bridge between east and west- and not identifying with either-

but what is there to be uneasy about?

i nevr heard anyone claim chritianity or judaism were western BORN religions, but many of its adherents live in the west- i dont think there are many people that think they originated in the west-
i dont think many people even understand christianity started in turkey-
and it seems not many at all know that turkey itself doesnt now or ever consider itself eastern- and god help you if you call a turk a mid-easterner!!!

why? what possible difference does it make where it comes from?
can you point to a place and tell me where god is not?

So I still feel uneasy that the partial condification proces might be mistaken for the origin of the religion itself, and the crossroads between East and West might be mistaken for the West.

It doesn't matter where a religion was codified, but where it was born. Christianity came to India not via the codification process in Turkey and there are Eastern Christian churches which are not part of the codification process. The Syro-Malabar Church I belong to was not part of the codification process and came under the Roman Catholic Church only four hundred years ago, with permission to retain the Syrian rite and be fairly independent.

And even if the codification factor were considered, Turkey, as you mentioned is only at the crossroads of the East and West. Turkey is still considered a part of the Orient.

if it eases your mind any, all of the first christian congregations and churches were started in turkey, and even the catholic church itself was codified in constantinople(istanbul), which is considered the crossroads of the west and east-

I always feel a bit uneasy when Christianity and Judaism are referred to as Western religions. Israel is in the Middle EAST, NOT the West! All the major religions of the world are from the East.

Dear Mr Patel

That was a wonderfully generous piece you have written, like a Sufi master!

Gandhi does deserve all the credit that is given to him, for among other things, his love for Indian Muslims cost him his life. In the BBC poll of 2000, Gandhi was selected as the most important man of the past thousand years!

On a personal note, I feel delighted that you mentioned Dom Bede Griffiths as one of the most significant Abrahamic faith leaders. When I first met him in 1984, I remember being told by a Jesuit priest that Fr Bede was a visionary and it would take at least fifty years to begin understanding him. I'm glad that you have made it easier for people to start understanding him twenty seven years in advance. I wish to express my deepest gratitude.

I continue to wish you great success in your interfaith work!

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Interesting how the Jehova Witnesses, Muslims and Christians here all have GOD in a box for their exclusive proclamations of what is true.
Religion is like pointing at the moon. We all know it is there but we all have different perceptions of it. Other religions threaten the religions of control like Christianity, Mormonism and Islam.

These religions are threatened that even one of their flock might find God somewhere else and the church would lose absolute control. Most religion is a product of mans ego and insecurity.
God or Jehova or Whoever must be in a constant state of frustration, amusement and surprise over what the minds of men come up with to control others and exclude those who are different in the name of their *God*

and as far as my own plank goes-

any perception i had of a judgment being made surely rose out of my own heart-

if the judgment wasnt in me - i wouldnt resonate to it when i see it reflected back in the mirror of others-
so if i perceived judgment against my religion and it wasnt there-
i am sorry for introducing it from my own consciousness.

peace and be blessed

im sorry pagan place for interrupting your conversation.

i know from long experience here that as soon as any small critique of islam occurs- it opens the floodgates to islamophobes bashing hating (not you) but a weakness in the link seems to get seized on with those with bad intentions- so i was trying to ineptly nip it in the bud-

i was just so enjoying the air of trying to reach dialogue and finding similarities and i really enjoyed the flow.

(for the record- i cooked i a restaurant that was the ancient order of the hibernians meeting place for over a year and pretty much have the lowdown on michael collins and as far as im concerned- my people invented urban guerilla warfare and theres no pride in that)

but i never in any way shape or form made any allusions to ANYONE being malignant!

all i did was point out the competitiveness in wiccan gatherings as ive seen plenty of it- its a comment on peoples behavior and the point was- exactly as stated-
picking the plank out of ones own eye before looking at the dust mote in ones sister or brother

so i hope we can all go back to uplifting each others conditions and concentrate on our harmonies and good intentions

Paganplace

Point very well made in your last post to Victoria:)

But look at it this way. Victoria is an American Muslim, a minority, made to answer for all that Americans find disquieting about what Muslims wrought in the name of God and for Islam. American Muslims have been under a great deal of pressure and, dare I add, stress, since 9/11 from all sorts of overt and covert harassments and acts of bigotry. Of course, Americans perpetrating and perpetuating these are a minority, but what they did gets widely reported in the Muslim world, from what Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson et al said, to how some Muslim clerics are asked to get off the plane.

I can never excuse Osama and other Muslims committing terrorism. And be mindful that Muslim fanatics and inerrantists do kill more Muslims from Algeria to Indonesia for not sharing their singular world-view. But I do feel for American Muslim panelists and posters on On Faith threads at the receiving end of biles and ires for acts they don't commit. It is ridiculous for American Muslims, who are a very diverse group, from Iranians to Bangladeshis, Shiites and Sunnis, to answer for some acts committed by the Achenese Freedom Movement (Gerakan Aceh Merdeka) in Indonesia.

Certainly, American Muslims can respond to questions on Islam as a faith, and certainly it will all be different depending on whether they are Pakistanis, Iranians, Arabs or Indonesians. Sunnis or Shiites. Like other faiths, be it Christianity or Buddhism or Judaism, the Islam of a Muslim is shaped by history, sects, schools etc. The common thread and unifying factor for all Muslim believers are the Five Pillars of Islam.

As you noted, the functional differences between Christianity and Islam, are academic and literary. And I would add, in the fundamental spiritual understanding of God and salvation. Certainly Muslims do see different paths in achieving what they perceived as God's work on earth. And Muslims argued since the beginnings of Islam on what is the right path.

Best regards and always enjoyed your posts.

RECOGNIZE JAH

There is a key difference between lived religion and the one found in foundational texts of each religion. To understand religion and how it is interpreted - it is important to move beyond quoting bible and koran and look at the people. In fact to a large degree we will find that while religion is an important facet of culture, the mythologies, stories, customs etc. of a land also morph religion. So acultural anaesthetic understandings of religion are fundamentally bankrupt.

Ok, Victoria. I was speaking to someone else about a very specific question when you came in with the 'seemingly-benign' characterization of *my* people, among others, ...the implication of course being the idea that in some ill-defined way we're a malignancy.

I call that false witness by your own standards.

" is your statement on the "structural problems with a long history of making people go postal"
a thinly veiled criticism of what you misiniterpret islam to be?"

Actually, that goes, as stated, for *all* systems that base their worldview on an all-or-nothing divine-judgement-according-to-laws sort of universe. To someone like me, the functional differences between Christianity and Islam, for instance, are pretty much academic and literary.

""see? thats what i mean!
is that necessary?
urban guerilla warfare (or terrorism) is a 20th century invention,"

Not really. Ask the Irish. :)

""certain belief systems"?

you condemn entire philosophies on the basis of what?"

You assume I 'condemn' on the basis of *what?*

Your belief that the universe runs on approval or condemnation, with nothing in between?

That's what *I* mean.

"to me, this is the kind of close mindedness to an entire people that is exactly the problem with what we were pursuing here- plurality-"

Actually, it seems you're assuming that discussing the effects of certain kinds of belief constitutes an 'attack on Islam' or something, when, frankly, what you seem to be reacting to is mostly my comments on the 'nothing to lose' factor in people... going postal.

If you *substitute* Divine judgement for human compassion, the minute a troubled person having a bad day decides that their actions are either divinely necessary, divinely forgiveable, or moot since they're 'damned,' anyway, then inhuman things can happen.

"its a spiritual oneupsmanship thing that we were doing pretty well without."

Are you projecting, here? I didn't tell anyone to believe anything, here.

"removing the 'my way is better than your way-my god can beat up your god' entality and removing it from the discussion is, i believe, exactly what mr patel is successfully accomplishing with his youth corps."

Sure. Where's this assertion about me now saying my Gods can beat up your God come from, though?

Gods avert, but if this were a *war,* you'd know it.

People that talk about spirit like it's *war* tend to create wars.

"lets focus on that- it really isnt a competition- but it becomes something else when people feel comfortable disparaging the beliefs of others.

that is what were trying to avoid.
peace"

Well, if it's not a competition, why do you always seem to be the one claiming the innate superiority of your way and claiming to be attacked when people talk?

Then turn around and presume that's where people you misunderstand come from. Only you don't have to understand cause you follow the 'perfect way.'

Heard that before. And it's not just Islam.

And, yeah, it has to do with when people believe the world revolves around 'judging good and evil.' Whoever they say really does it.

How about looking at the general signs of distress among the population?

jacob- btw- thank you for saying i might be an eclat- i consider that a compliment and in return i recognize the god consciousness in you too and hope we both flower and benefit from each others perspectives

jacob- thas precisely what i believe islam is- a universal all inclusive religion-
by concentrating on our similarities we can work together as mr patel has been to create the tolerant and inclusive atmosphere we desparately need in this old world.
peace

"WE need a "ONE UNIVERSAL RELIGION SYSTEM"

Well, I think "WE" need to get over *that* idea.

In a *real* hurry.

We, as a species don't have time for this. People and the world are hurting *right now.*

Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and when you build an altar to that, problems like this *will* recur.

I suggest it'd be a lot more productive to be mature about our differences than to expect everything'll be peachy if only 'one system' 'wins.'

the ego is relentless in its ambition to assert itself- as soon as one thinks its conquered- it rears its attention seeking head again-

i wasnt asserting non- competitiveness- it isnt my creed-

i just dont see any need for judgments- period.

and studying isnt a competition- its my personal findings- i ascribed my own criteria for a value judgment and found it best.

but if tis competitve to point out the positivity of my faith especially in the face of so much criticism (not necessarily from you) so be it.

is your statement on the "structural problems with a long history of making people go postal"
a thinly veiled criticism of what you misiniterpret islam to be?

see? thats what i mean!
is that necessary?
urban guerilla warfare (or terrorism) is a 20th century invention,

"certain belief systems"?

you condemn entire philosophies on the basis of what?

to me, this is the kind of close mindedness to an entire people that is exactly the problem with what we were pursuing here- plurality-

its a spiritual oneupsmanship thing that we were doing pretty well without.

removing the 'my way is better than your way-my god can beat up your god' entality and removing it from the discussion is, i believe, exactly what mr patel is successfully accomplishing with his youth corps.

lets focus on that- it really isnt a competition- but it becomes something else when people feel comfortable disparaging the beliefs of others.

that is what were trying to avoid.
peace

Hee. Well, Victoria,

"isnt proclaiming any religion "judgment-based-
in itself, a judgment?"

Or an observation, or a qualitative evaluation, if you allow for subjectivity in your own perceptions. But, these religions proclaim everything's about judgement, themselves, they just put it all on an unknowable figure.

"the only religion ive ever studies that is an active proponent of equality among ALL humans is islam."

Aren't you being a bit competetive about assertions of non-competetiveness? :)

"een the seemingly benign buddhism and wiccan relgions get surprisingly competitive when it comes to ones spiritual "levels" and create in their communities unspoken consensus and judgment of the low or high capacity for enlightenment or practice."

Well, if you see spirit as part of the world, of course people can be 'better at' certain things, particuarly with practice and effort, ...but that's not the same as everything being about 'sheep and goats' and 'damned and saved.' Not at all.

"now, i know this is not supposed to be so- but it happens."

Mote. Plank. As Christians used to say.

Note how I've become 'Supposedly-benign' for opening my mouth, though, speaking of judgements?

You prove my point. It's kind of hard to talk to certain belief systems. Even when we're saying, 'Yeah, honestly there are structural problems there with a long history of making people go postal, but that doesn't mean one should stop talking to *humans.*

isnt proclaiming any religion "judgment-based-
in itself, a judgment?

the only religion ive ever studies that is an active proponent of equality among ALL humans is islam.

een the seemingly benign buddhism and wiccan relgions get surprisingly competitive when it comes to ones spiritual "levels" and create in their communities unspoken consensus and judgment of the low or high capacity for enlightenment or practice.

now, i know this is not supposed to be so- but it happens.

also there is an inherent judgment as to how one is a partaker of this enlightened state.

its not an arbitrary assignation- one must work towards and earn it.

in islam, we truly are saying that we dont know the state of anothers heart-
and there can be no more tolerant or non-judgmental attitude than that.

and theres no argument that this is all a solitary endeavor, as both require teachers and there are instances of society when one is held against the other -

humans are competitive creatures
we arent trying to pretend that this is not a part of our nature, or sublimate it only to have it return full force at the worst possible time (as happens in life)
but balance this nature within us against our high and low aspects and keep our jihad(efforts) against our lower inclinations in check -
by observing them and being aware of what strengthens and weakens them.

Well, Bgone, it's often problematic when contemplating judgement-based religions, particularly when there are assertions of forgiveness or righteous justification: ...if you presume that punishment is necessary or relevant, then questions of justice in that regard get thorny:

Too often it leads to people feeling justified in committing horrors if they either expect to be forgiven, think it serves a greater good to do what anyone should see as horrible, ...or think they're already so damned for breaking sexual rules, having natural biology, or simply having been abused into a perception of their own 'damned-ness' that means there's nothing to lose in things like this.

It's like how capital punishment is something police know doesn't *deter* crime, ...it simply escalates it because felons feel to have nothing to lose in shooting more people, or cops, or whatever.

It's a terrible alienation from life and sanity and even 'natural morality,' that often drives these acts.

But, it doesn't have to be 'gravel in the transmission' of interfaith dialogue: certainly, those of us who have left these religions can take a pretty penetrating look at the psychology of this binary 'ultimate punishment/ultimate reward' duality.

While remembering that that's not all that people, or even these religions, really *are.*

The conditions that Heaven/Hell duality set often go unquestioned, or impotently-questioned, because they're deliberately set up to be premises beyond the human capacity to evaluate. People tend to *negotiate* with them instead of considering their effects.

These religions are *supposed* to know this, they say that 'Judgement is their Lord's,' but that just doesn't seem adequate to cope sometimes.

It already creates impasses in interfaith dialogue: (dealing with people who believe that believing the wrong thing damns you tends to mean that it's psychologically-unacceptable for them to contemplate that maybe their beliefs about others as 'chaff' to be burned aren't the real or full story.)

But let's not let a horror like this get in the way of the common *humanity* that's our one real hope when things like this come down.

According to the Holy Bible, the dead are sleeping and here are enough texts to prove that.

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10 The dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun [in this life]. ... For there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave.

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord.
Psalms 6:5 In death there is no remembrance of thee.
Job 7:10 He shall return no more to his house.
Isaiah 38:18 Death can not celebrate thee.
Psalms 146:4 His thoughts perish.

There is an investigative judgment going on in heaven right now, which will decide who will live eternally and who will not live eternally, but every one will be rewarded only at the second coming of Jesus, but up until then, the dead sleep.

Perhaps someone could explain what happens to the dead at Virginia Tech. That's according to their faith, where are the dead now?

According to some of the faithful in Christ they are being judged, standing in front of the "great judgment seat" of Almighty God. Is that in the best interest of the shooter or the shot?

That gives the shooter a second chance. He can be forgiven and allowed into heaven, or, he was justified in his actions and will skate right in.

What happens if there is no judgment? What if all arrive in the next world at the same time. That gives the shot a second chance to do something about the shooter. Hell comes in handy to get rid of the shot. Hell was invented by shooters, wistful thinking.

I thought I'd mention this. It could be like a handfull of gravel in the transmission of interfaith kindness, understanding and brotherly love.

Religious other,yes.
Three little christian girls(religious other) beheaded by muslim tettorists in Nanggroe Aceh Darussalam.

but,I couldnt see from Petronas Towers built by kafir Cesar Pelli.Wasnt there a muslim architect?

Hello Victoria

I truly share with you on the need for acceptance and accomodation of pluralism/diversity be they secular, religious, ethnic, political, economic, social and cultural.

Salam

i just watched religion and ethics weekly and saw an interview with brother patel on his interfaith program-

he spoke of pluralism in regards to our attitudes towards each other and what a hopeful and universal message he promotes
peace

Thank you. You give me hope.

thanks for the link, and for the uplifting.
your brother wayne sounds like the true embodiment of what catholic means. love is

Eboo Patel,

Thank you for this essay. Brother Wayne seems a wonderful person/character.

My mantra for 2007: "Buddhists are the most truly Christian people on earth."

Best wishes.