All Comments (267)

Hi, i am currently doing year twelve in Australia. And i am Australian and a Christian. Recently i got an assignment in enlish to act as a delagate at a United Nations Youth Form, on social Justice and Human rights. While i was researching religious presecution i found this article. And i am now doing discrimination against Muslims. I think that in our modern society people shouldnt be so sterotypical and bascially stuip. Every group wheater or not a religious group has people in them that dont do the right thing. But does that really mean we must condem the whole group? Are humans really that stuip to think...ow one Muslim did a terroist act, so all Muslims must be terriost. I am only 17 and even i can see the blind stupidity in that way of thinking. Every human has the right to thier basic human rights, so why are we isolating Muslims from thiers? Strip off religion, race, etc...and you will find that we are ALL human beings, so why are we not all being treated equally.I no that my assignment wount have a big impact on this issue, but i hope that i can atleast change the minds of my classmates. I have great respect for you all that are fighting for your religion, just no that there are people out ther, non-muslims that can see whats truly happening and are on your side.

Hi, I am a highschool student, and I was researching for artciles based on the discrimination that Muslims have, because of ONE single incident. I read your "blog" and all I have to say is, you are absolutely right. I would comment more on this topic, but it gets me very upset just thinking about it. I just want to say that what you had to say is very true, and Inshallah your unborn child will not have to go through anything like that; Inshallah none of us will. Salaam:)

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This post is for Jamil Afkir. My daughter who is 29 years old dated a Moroccan (who was Muslim) for 5 years. Because of her dating him, we have a neighbor who is in a hate group and has terrorized us for 5 years because of who she was with. This neighbor is prejudiced psychopath. My daughter had a baby to Khalid in January of this year and the baby died 4 hours after it was born (Heather was only 6 months pregnant and had been in our car a month before and someone ran into the back of the car, we think on purpose, and lost the baby). Then, we think the neighbor was threatening Khalid because he hadn't taken his citizenship test (he has been here in the U.S. for about 7 years). In July this year, Khalid called her on the phone and said his mother wasn't well and he was going back to Morocco. She hasn't heard from him since and we have reason to believe that he was picked up by the feds per our neighbor who probably called them and said that he was a terrorist and we think he is in prison somewhere and we can't do anything to find out where he is. My daughter has his phone number in Morocco but no one in his home speaks English so she has not tried to call over there. We are trying to find a federal attorney to help us because this neighbor of ours just wanted him out of the road so his son could have my daughter. Khalid was not a terrorist but we are completely in the dark and don't know what has happened to him. If anyone out there of you, Jamil, have any idea how we can find out where he is we would appreciate it.
Thank you. He told my daughter many times that he loved her and this is just not like him to not call her for 5 months.
Thank you.
Jerilyn Capaccione

Every great leader and righteous person had experienced and will experience hatred and violence. We Muslims shall go through that in order to experience what our beloved Prophets (who are also Muslim) have gone through. The seeds of hatred began with satan (Iblees) and shall be here 'till the day of Judgement. It's up to us to put up a good fight...And Allah will be the judge and protector of the righteous! Your son, Eboo, will insha'Allah be one of the Righteous!

Salaams,
I just wanted to say that your article is very well written and you made some great points!

Notification relating the comment of 28 of August 2007. I was definitively not the author of this article. I am not professor in Law, but consultant in genocide studies, and I've never dealed with judicial cases with the city of bloominghton. Additionnally, I've never tempted to live in U.S and my sisters as well.

However, I encourage peole to struggle against discrimination mecanism and promote dignity for everyone.
Regards,
Jamila Afkir

I am a French Muslim woman from Morocco, and have experienced similar reprisals in the United States. My sisters and I were refused entry to Texas because we were considered "suspicious persons". However, this treatment transcends our people and affects others, specifically Jewish people. I am a professor of law and have been studying three parallel cases, two pending in the Southern District of Indiana and one decided in the Indiana Supreme Court:

Leonard's Linen Services v. City of Bloomington
Patinkin v. City of Bloomington
Dvorak v. City of Bloomington

In the first two cases, we learn that a town in Southern Indiana has a history of discriminating against Jewish landowners. In the former case, a demolition permit was denied because it was discovered the buyer was a Jewish person. In the latter, residential occupancy permits were voided when it was discovered that Patinkin is Jewish.
In the third, we learn that the City's discrimination extends to Arab persons. It was learned that the tenants occupying one Peter Dvorak's house were Arab and the City immediately moved to evict these students.

We must fight vigilantly, if it means filing lawsuits in federal court, to achieve redress and
realize the melting pot that America should be. Let's not let this dream die out of apathy.

I am a French Muslim woman from Morocco, and have experienced similar reprisals in the United States. My sisters and I were refused entry to Texas because we were considered "suspicious persons". However, this treatment transcends our people and affects others, specifically Jewish people. I am a professor of law and have been studying three parallel cases, two pending in the Southern District of Indiana and one decided in the Indiana Supreme Court:

Leonard's Linen Services v. City of Bloomington
Patinkin v. City of Bloomington
Dvorak v. City of Bloomington

In the first two cases, we learn that a town in Southern Indiana has a history of discriminating against Jewish landowners. In the former case, a demolition permit was denied because it was discovered the buyer was a Jewish person. In the latter, residential occupancy permits were voided when it was discovered that Patinkin is Jewish.
In the third, we learn that the City's discrimination extends to Arab persons. It was learned that the tenants occupying one Peter Dvorak's house were Arab and the City immediately moved to evict these students.

We must fight vigilantly, if it means filing lawsuits in federal court, to achieve redress and
realize the melting pot that America should be. Let's not let this dream die out of apathy.

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"Doesn’t every nation/religion/tradition have a dark side? "

The only dark side of Islam is the people who abuse it. Islam itsself is pure.

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I am a highly educated, well published, scientist with Islamic heritage who has lived in US for 20 years. See what happened to me! No one in the media gives a damn about this. It is a shame 50 years after Civil Rights Act to find a company in US to discriminate against Muslims with such audacity!
Here is the story:
------------------------------------

"How can we trust you? You may read Quran and get ideas?"

That is what I was told in one occasion by my manager at Merrill Lynch co. where I worked for more than 3 years!

Merrill Lynch is the largest brokerage firm in America. An investment bank and a fortune 100 company with billions of dollars in profits each year. They have also a long track record of discrimination against African Americans, women, etc. (Google "Merrill Lynch + discrimination" for a long list of law suits and class actions some currently pending). The company employs roughly 50,000 employees out of which only 50 or so have Ph.D degrees. I was one of those with a Ph.D in physics and only one with a middle eastern or Muslim background.

Company is located in down town Manhattan a block away from ground zero. It's always a novelty to find an Iranian or someone of Muslim heritage on Wall Street even though Odds of that are slightly better than finding them on Mars!

If you ever try to get a foot in Wall street you would know that it's a mission impossible specially if you are an Iranian. It's just not meant for us. It's for few elites who have the "goods". You know! Anyhow, They were looking for some highly qualified applicant well versed in a quantitative/scientific discipline and after interviewing a couple of hundreds of candidates they didn't like, I showed up. More than 6 hours of grueling interviews and tens of questions (Math, Finance, Computer Science, Statistics, etc) later I was chosen. People who interviewed me were Ph.D graduates of Columbia, NYU, Cornell & Moscow university etc.

It was not until a year or so later that I demanded equal pay and promotion that discrimination and harassment surged. Beyond the time to time greetings of "terrorist", "risk factor" etc there were discriminatory actions that defies imagination. I was physically isolated from rest of my colleagues. While all my colleagues with PhD degrees (those who interviewed me) were sitting on 5th floor of world financial center I was forced to sit in isolation on a different floor next to IT support personnel and this other fellow who was a programmer with a high school degree! As a matter of fact from the three people who were sitting next to me none was a full time employee as me and none had a degree higher than college. Even though I was doing every bit of duty of a quantitative Analyst/Vice president I was isolated physically not to come in contact with my tiers (New era segregation!).

In one occasion one of my colleagues tried to explain to me this odd arrangement. He said: "You are from a country with a high risk factor. That's why you are not allowed on the trading floor"!

Trading floor is the heart of action (No, no one jumps up and down yelling. It's just that big players and decision makers are there). Here I was, a highly educated, cultured intellectual in this country with a PhD in physics and a Masters in Mathematical finance and I had to sit in some secluded corner because of my nationality and perceived religion. If you think that is shameful and discriminatory wait for the rest of the story.

Once a managing director of the firm shared his wisdom with everyone in the group and said: "If we ever have to fire someone among traders and analysts, who is it going to be? I think traders are so many like Palestinians so there is no problem losing some of them on the other hand analysts are few like Israelis, we can not afford losing them."

That statement is not just discriminatory that is plain hate speech. He has admitted saying that during Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) investigation. EEOC is a government agency who is tasked by enforcing the civil rights act in US.

The harassment and discrimination continued till the point that I started pushing back and demand equal treatment and fair salary. Finally they decided to get rid of me. Despite the fact that the company was on a hiring spree at the time and added a net of few thousands to its work force they got rid of me under pretext of "Reduction in force".

Remember the guy who was sitting next to me with a high school degree? He was chosen over me to stay because they decided he has a better grasp of Financial mathematics than yours truly. No the guy is no math prodigy. He is a temp employee/consultant, an experienced programmer who nonetheless has a hard time even handling high school algebra! After they got rid of me they moved him to 5th floor to sit next to my colleagues who all have Ph.D degrees in math and physics! This is all happening in 21st century America folks! No doubt an opportunity land but for who?! You may find it relevant to know he is of Jewish descend and the manger who discovered his talent happens to be an Israeli national! OOPS!The statements I quoted above belong to other managers not him! Hum...!

After my lay off I filed a complaint with EEOC and they found Merrill Lynch guilty of discrimination against me. EEOC letter signed by the New York City director reads:

"Based on the analysis (of evidence), I have found that respondent subjected charging party to discrimination based on his race and religion and retaliated against him." (Part of the EEOC letter is attached I have eliminated the identities for legal concerns).

EEOC usually rejects 95% of discrimination claims as without merit. They also file a law suit on behalf of the plaintiff only in less than 1% of the cases. Despite the clear statement by EEOC as to blatant and vicious nature of this discrimination eight months ago I am still waiting for them to take the next step and file a law suit in federal court!

To call this discrimination is a misuse of English language. This is a hate crime and a downright attempt to eliminate elite elements of a race and religion and replace them by those who have racial, political and religious affinity with them. It is the people at these positions who are going to command influence and power in the society and by eliminating the elite of one race those who perpetrate these acts consciously and methodically intend to foster an environment that guarantees their domination for generations to come.

It would be a colossal mistake to treat this as an isolated case of unintentional lapse in judgment. This case has all the hallmarks of a concerted effort to systematically insure the future of one race at the expense of another.

Helloooo..where is everyone these days...hope we are not running out of gas here..haha..keep this thing going..

Salaams Victoria..It`s good you brought that. Who is complaining that your "version" of Islam is a watered down western "version"?Are they saying this because you come from a Western background?
In fact, you put it in the best way, the way a Non-Muslim would understand.
There is no such thing as a "real" muslim.We are all equal.Born muslims and REVERTS..Note I use REVERT.
See the other thing with our religion is that it comprises people from all walks of life..different races, different cultures, etc..People must realize that muslims from different parts of the world are very different people..We are not all the same..But what unites us is ISLAM. I went for Hajj in 2001, and you will not believe the people you see there. You will see all shades of skin color there.
I think also a common mistake is for people to associate certain negative aspects of some cutures with Islam.
I have a lot of Christian friends and we are very open minded and have regular discussions about our faiths. I have a lot of respect for ALL religions.My religion is VERY important to me and I get very offended when people insult ISLAM or the prophet (PBUH).
I think this just hatred.I don`t mind someone criticizing any aspect of Islam, because you are ignorant. in which case I will explain to you and if I am unable to do that, refer you to someone like Victoria..

wa alaikum a salaam imran-

i watched relion and ethics weekly yesterday and saw an interview with the panelist eboo patel.

i became muslim in 1999 and admit that i thought muslims were called that because they wore muslin cloth!!!!

i wholeheartedly invite you to post on current questions in the muslim panelits posts, as they degenerate quickly, and one of the common complaints i get is that my "version" of islam is a watered down western "version" and that 'real' muslims would reject it.

that why i came to this site too- to share and dialogue-

i respond often because otherwise the posts would be left to the haters, and there may be that one person out there who believes what they say,

the funny thing is- i encounter in my own community the same restrictive mentality- i sometimes play the devils advocate

peace!

Salaams Victoria, well it`s just so nice to see someone putting so much effort into trying to explain our religion, I know it takes a lot of time, patience and effort.So yeah, give praise where it is due.
People must understand that before 9/11, very few in the west knew about Islam. That`s why I think there is all this ignorance and hatred.Also the ignorance is not only about Islam, but also about other cultures, traditions, etc. It`s ironic that the onus is put on the muslims to explain and teach their religion.
It`s just sad that people come here with the sole intention to insult and offend.
I thought the whole idea of this site was for people to come together and find something common in all of us.
Anyways, Keep it up Victoria..

Peace

wa alaikum a salaam imran- well that is a shock-
its rare i get praise indeed (that was praise right? im so unused to it i may be mistaken)

peace

Salaams Victoria
Let me just say that you are just amazing!! I came across this blog by chance on a saturday night when i had nothing to do.I spent a good few hours trying to read all the posts and still didn`t go through all of them. I see myself as a very liberal, moderate Muslim, and I was shocked how much ignorance and hatred there is for Islam and Muslims.It is actually frightening.Let me just say that today It`s Islam because of the Geo-political landscape, who knows what the target is going to be tomorrow?? Racism, hatred and bigotry have no limits...And yes you are right, I`m an Indian guy and I love blonde, blue eyed ladies..haha

you are creating a false dichotomy with that analogy, as the two issues have a very different value.
the impact on a teenagers life (most likely the parents) of paying higher rates for the PRIVILEGE of driving cannot be compared to not getting a job, losing opportunities, being spat upon, or even imprisoned (as has happened to many)

while freedom from discrimination is not a privilege, it is a right.

so no, high insurance rates for teenagers is not discrimination, as it is at the discretion of the companies to set their rates accoeding to their own criteria.

while discrimination against people based on religion robs them of their rights.

I wonder how we look at teenage insurance rates. Just because a few kids had accidents and drove recklessly does that mean that insurance rates for all teenagers should be high? Is that discrimination?

btw deb- i most certainly did not mess up maudoodi and qutb-

i am aware of the life stories of both-
there was no denunciation of the son of qutb nor ws there racial killing in kashmir because of qutb- they are different people with different backgrounds-

qutb was imprisoned for political reasons- not for inciting people to hate-

what are you talking about deb- manu was the first lawgiver-
to reject the laws of manu is to reject hinduism-

polygamy isnt the issue at all and you know it-

you are so sneaky deb-

manus laws were not thrown out 2000 years ago-

it is a part of the religion not an obscurantist side issue-

where you got this polygamy nonsense is anyones guess- youre i suspect just making that up completely to tie in with islam-

the practices are in practice today- and have been accepted in indian society- and only recently (not 1948) have started to be outlawed-

youre full of nonsense deb

Victoria wrote:

"i have a more than passing knowledge of hinduism, but you dont see me elaborating on manus 4 laws and subsequent proscriptions for the treatment of women do you?"

Good, Vicky, good ! You are picking up ! Way to go girl !

But, you know what ? You are making a sorry creature of yourself. These are the reasons:

1. Manusmriti is indeed Manu's code - where the most racist and casteist views of society are indeed found, and makes anyone puke with shame and hatred. But, Manu's laws are NOT the Hindu religion (way of worship) in any way. They refer to a Hindu society that is ridden with all the evils of caste and sexual discrimination against women and lower birth people. It is not religion, but a society that Manu is referring to. It is not any immutable word of God (like in the Quran) and cannot be used to define worship.

2. Hindu society has been inherently secular and most progressive compared to Islam. About 2200 years ago during the Gupta empire the kings, who ruled most of the Northern India, rejected the laws of Manu in their governance. So, it was that early that Manu's laws were not used.

When India became independent in 1947, the secular Govt. of India (Prime Minister Jawahar Lal Nehru) passed a Hindu marriage act (as a part of the Hindu Personal law) where it constitutionally rejected the code of Manu and made polygamy by Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas (the three upper castes) a felony and prosecutable by law. No Hindu rose to claim something like Jihad against this "interference" into their personal lives.

What this shows is that Hindus are far more progressive and secular. They have the courage to reject the obscurantist something that existed since moon was turning into green cheese.

Contrast this to Islam. It is a primitive and barbaric, illiberal society which thrives by fanatical religious discrimination of women and the minority. The Islamic society (ulema) has not been able to come up with any methods to reform itself. It only thrives by instilling the fear of rape, pillage, loot, arson and murder. (Read the newsitems from Pakistan at the site http://www.dawn.com and you shall see what I mean.)

I agree with Mr. Patel that people of a 'darker hue' are treated as 3/5 of a person in this country. I think people largely from middle America (where demographics have historically been W.A.S.P.-dominated, so therefore exposure to diversity has been minimal) are the biggest perpetrators of this (I was born in the Midwest myself).

My impression is that white Americans think they are somehow entitled to citizenship in this country more than 'brown' or 'black' Americans, regardless of whether or not the latter groups were born here (not that I think natural-born status should be a deciding factor). It doesn't matter, they are perceived as 'different' and so therefore should seemingly feel lucky to even be allowed to live here. I'm white, so I would never imply that I know what it's like to walk in the shoes of minorities, but in my observation this mindset runs rampant in this country. People think they 'aren't racist' because they have lunch with a black colleague now and then. Or media portrayals of Muslims are meant to be enlightened because they are educated, clean-cut and likeable terrorists, rather than surly knife-wielding maniacs. I think this is considered improvement, which shows how vast the problem is.

Because of deep ignorance and intolerance in this country, negative sentiment towards Muslims here is deemed 'understandable' by many post-9/11. Presumably it isn't because people have considered thoughtfully their feelings towards Muslims and came to a logical conclusion that disliking them or being uncomfortable with their presence is legitimate. No, I think the feelings were already deep-seeded and 9/11 only provided ammunition and weak justification for intolerance towards Muslims. Why? Because again I think alot of white (and maybe other races as well, I'm not sure) Americans are very uncomfortable with anything 'different' and, to their perception, 'foreign'. Isn't it interesting how quickly so many, who consider themselves enlightened and certainly not racist, will utter something along the lines of "well if they don't like it, they can go home!" as if the U.S. is, for some reason, not their home. They could be born here, family here for generations, U.S.-passport carrying, tax-paying citizens, but if they are a 'darker hue' as Mr. Patel said, they aren't quite entitled to be considered American.

This mindset is actually very un-American (and un-Christian, not that anyone seems to mind that), if we're to identify with the plaque on the Statue of Liberty and it's sentiment ("Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free..."). As if we're a welcoming place for all! Perhaps it should read 'Give me your money, your educated, English-speaking, European-looking youth or bugger off.'

well, alot of people like alot of things-
is it a reflection on the aryans (noble in sanskrit)that hilter stole the swastika?

i imagine osama had access to a very exclusive education and came across many things he liked and disliked-

creating a false connection just seems like youre casting about for any reason to complain-

i have a more than passing knowledge of hinduism, but you dont see me elaborating on manus 4 laws and subsequent proscriptions for the treatment of women do you?

you know what i mean

see- just because i am aware of some very negative manifestations of your belief system-doesnt make it necessary to to publicly abuse you-

i wont hit you where it hurts- it gos against who i am as a muslim-
its now enough that you know that i know what you know

we will get back on topic

Victoria:

As usual it is apparent on this and other forums, where you simply puke others views, that you become more incredible in your personal attacks when you feel uncomfortable in answering any of the questions posed.

And yes, caste system is indeed elitist. You have, somehow, managed get this right. However elitism in the Hindu caste system does not explain why there is an apparent common thread between yours, Osama, Zawahiri's liking of Sayyid Qutb.

There is more than that meets the eye.

deb is a brahmin so the common rules of civility dont apply to him- if my shadow touched him hed have to go shower and change his clothes-

but we wont discuss the inherent elistism built into the caste system

Deist Ded,

Where are your manners!!!

Victoria:

You have messed up Maudoodi and Qutb. But, that's OK - a characteristic.

The evidences you have cited are really tiny by comparison the follwoing each has even if their Governments had arrested them or Maudoodi's children had disowned him, which you repeatedly cite to show (quite foolishly) that Maudoodi is a discredited scholar. If that were so, the Jammat-i-Islam (founded by Maudoodi in Lahore in 1937) would not have had a substantial following in Pakistan and Bangladesh. It is because of the political power of the Jammat the governments in these countries are surviving. (Pakistan of course is a military dictatorship.)

And, because you like the ideas of Sayyid Qutb who is also a favorite of Osama bin Laden and Ayman al Zawahiri, you three maybe lumped in the same boat.

It is really weird. You are westernized Muslim convert in USA - a country whose Constitution upholds free speech and freedom of almost anything; Osama bin Laden and Zawahiri are opposed to US foreign policies plus the US society/cultural values (free speech in particular and that includes the freedom to criticize Islam). But, by a strange twist of fate (insallah) all three of you have devotion for Sayyid Qutb whose book MILESTONES implies the call for the destruction of US pre-emptively in order to save Islam from its evil influence ! How queer !

Victoria, are you also in cahoots with Al Qaeeda ?

Deb Chatterjee (Ref post 25 March 2007 9:26):

That was an insightful comparison of the Bhagavad Gita with Islam. You did right in pointing out the differences, since religions do have unique aspects about them while they all have the same goal of reaching God.

[BTW my Hindu ancestors were upper caste Brahmins too – Nambudiri/Namboothiri (who practice the most ancient and strictest form of the Vedic religion and are considered princely Hindu Brahmins) from Thrissur, Kerala. Until the age of eight I lived in the same remote village in Thrissur, that my Syro-Malabar Christian ancestors had lived in for over nineteen centuries. Up until my father’s generation almost all my relatives lived and married within a fifty kilometre radius, taking care that the Christians they married were similarly Nambudiri converts, thus maintaining the Hindu social customs despite the conversion! Kerala tradition has it that Apostle Thomas, one of the disciples of Jesus Christ, came to Kerala in 52 AD, along the well established ‘Seidenstrasse’ or ‘Silk (street) Road’ (Kerala being known for trade in spices like pepper) to the small Jewish community that lived in Kerala at the time. The ministry of Apostle Thomas was unique in that he converted not only Jews, but also many Brahmins and other upper caste Hindus in Kerala. The mass conversions of the lower castes by Francis Xavier, the co-founder of the Jesuit order, did not take place until fifteen centuries later. I do not consider it unfortunate at all that my ancestors were Nambudiris. I also consider it extremely fortunate that they converted to Christianity, although it is wonderful to know that Nambudiris practise the oldest religion in the world and as a people they are wonderful and extremely noble.]

Christianity, as you are aware, as a religion preaches NON-violence, so the Bhagavad Gita can be applied to Christianity only in the sense that Mahatama Gandhi did it – primarily as a battle within the individual soul against the forces of evil within oneself and its attachment to objects in the world outside, and of course Bakhti to Jesus, serving Him with detachment and seeking knowledge about Him.

Christianity would make a pathetic state religion because Jesus did not come to mete out justice but to show love and mercy. He said “If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” That would be a poor way to defend the borders of one’s country when foreign forces invade it. If all enemies are to be forgiven as Jesus commands, and as He did while He hung on the cross dying, who would protect the innocent from the criminals? The Sermon on the Mount (Gospel of Matthew, chapters 5-7) could be considered the summary of Jesus’ teaching. In the early days of Christianity, many Christians ended up getting killed for their faith. There is nothing in the life of Jesus or what is written in the New Testament that justifies any kind of violence. My personal complaint has been that it seems to encourage masochism instead by being told to turn the other cheek! Thank God Jesus also implied that religion and the state should remain separate, when He said “Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, give to God what belongs to God,” and that His kingdom was not of this world. In other words Jesus was talking in terms of a spiritual world and a spiritual kingdom. But that is not to say that it would be bad for politicians to be true Christians. On the contrary, the Western civilisation is proof that wonderful things can come out of it.

Although the New Testament written from the time of the birth of Jesus is the main Scripture for Christians, Christianity also shares the Old Testament with the Jews and Muslims, which does have instances of war and violence. The Old Testament is important to the Christians because the prophets predict the coming of the Messiah, the Saviour of the world, who is the equivalent of the Avatar of the Absolute Brahman. Christianity if founded on our belief that Jesus Christ is the Messiah whose coming was predicted by the Prophets of the Old Testament. Jesus who was born a Jew and lived the life of a Jew till the end, teaching in the Synagogues, referred to the passages in the Old Testament that spoke of His coming to prove that He was the Messiah that the Jews had been promised through their Scripture.

Christianity does not believe in reincarnation. Christians believe that we are saved by the redeeming work of Jesus Christ, who although He lived a perfect life was put to death (an offering of innocent blood) as atonement for our sins. Jesus for Christians is the Avatar of God who broke the cycle of birth and death on our behalf through His perfect life and sacrifice, and we are set free from the cycle of birth and death by worshipping Him. Christians are expected to live a good and holy life not in order to become worthy of Heaven but because Jesus commanded His followers to obey his commands as proof of love for Him, and His command was to love everyone, including our enemies. To develop the ability to love everyone including our enemies in the universal way Jesus commanded, the Bhagavad Gita provides extremely valuable advice that definitely adds to the wisdom of the Bible.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

i respect qutb greatly- but it takes more than a 'just because i say so' to validate a claim like that deb-

if he was so respected why did the government of pakistan imprison him?

why is he credited with starting a hateful movement that was racist and apartheid and killed people?

why did his own son distance himself from him and denounce him publicly?

id say your analysis of what constitutes world wide acceptance of something is lacking

Victoria:

Majority of the Islamic world respects Maudoodi and Qutb.

You and other westernized Muslim converts are in minority.

maudodi was imprisoned by his own pakistani government and disowned by his children for the hateful venom he spewed in the name of islam-

so i wouldnt exactly consider his opinion as definitive of anyting but a deranged soul
properly disavowed by those he claimed to represent-

werent there also many cases of actual abuses by hindus from his hateful propoganda?

so one opinion from one diseased character out of history doesnt a majority make- or even a valid opinion for anyone-

Victoria:

I regret some of the typos in my last post to you.

Victoria wrote:

"in islam one can only fight in a defensive posture- and then as soon as the aggressor proclaims peace- one is obligated to repsect that and cease fighting"

Theoretical and speculative opinions, as like yours.

Muhammad's bio has quite different incidents that counter such claims. Also, Muslim scholars - who has not been discredited in the greater Muslim world - but perhaps by westernized Muslim converts like you - such Sayyid Qutb and Maulana Maudoodi have satted that for eliminating "kufr" pre-emptive war is absolutely OK.

actually theres also the major difference in that in islam there is no aggresson- but fighting is only proscribed when ones home is aggressed upon- in other words- no "pre-emptive" judgements allowed -

in order to discern what "injustice" is- theres a judgement-

in islam one can only fight in a defensive posture- and then as soon as the aggressor proclaims peace- one is obligated to repsect that and cease fighting

Soja John Thaikattil:

Your remarks on Bhagavad Gita are quite interesting, and though coming from a upper-caste Brahmin family (unfortunately), I have felt that the message there is indeed universal. Muslims would like the core message, because it does not condemn violence when necessary. Many Muslim scholars have interepreted the message as same as "Jihad" (physical warfare). The similarity, in the opinion of Muslim scholars, is that the Supreme Godhead (Lord Krishna) is telling a human (Arjuna) being to pick up arms, to fight injustice. This is EXACTLY what the message of the Quran is. Parallel to this is the message of monotheism as in the Quran and Bible. How strange !

I have read both texts, and did not see how Muslim/Christian scholars would be wrong in such an assertion.

However major differences are:

(1) Bhagavad Gita [18:63] emphasizes on interpretation of the message to suit the situation at hand, and denouncing anything of the "fundamentalist" stripe like Islam. This means, as stated very clearly in the text, that one must accept/reject the message with questioning, analysis followed by one's own self-convictions through contemplation. The course of action that one might subsequently decide should be pursued without any attachment to the fruits/ results of those actions. (Such actions might, on occasion, involve use of violence and/or peace.)

(2) Emphatic assertion of birth and rebirth (karma) - that is the entrapment of the soul in the mortal flesh commensurate with the deeds in earlier lives. By realization of the Absolute Brahman can one break away the cycle of birth and rebirth.

(3) Several paths to realization of the Absolute Brahman - primary ones being Sankhyayoga [detachment, chapter 2], Karmayoga [deed, chapter 3] and Bhaktiyoga [faith, chapter 12]. The existence of suchseveral paths/forms of worship is to be interpreted similar to "all paths lead to Rome".

For that matter the first suicide bombimg was done by the tamil tigers but no one wants to talk about that...

I agree with you totally. I hate doing it myself; the problem arises when certain people attack islam and our blessed prophet for the sake of inuslts and not to start a frank and balanced discussion and dialogue; and they do it from their perceived superiority and the superority of their religion. I feel cornered when they do that and I come out swinging and don't care whom I hurt. After all said and done I feel bad and ashamed for what I said; but sometimes the way I look at it , it's a dirty job and some one got to do it...

it doesnt serve anyone to point fingers of accusation at others- peope arent so inclined to accept deep criticism-

it is well written- but for the purposes of addressing non-muslims- it is too judgemental and condemnatory-

terrorism actually is an irish invention-
the first urban geurilla was michael collins

its well written- but the content is unnecessarily condemnatory

no one in the histroy of the world ever changed their opinion by having their beliefs attacked

i suggest he or she turn their prodigious talents toward a positive representation of islam- rather than more comments about the sins of the 'other'

PM is muslim you guys. He is arguing the absurdity of the western man's arrogance, materialism and hegemony. He is being sarcastic in talking of the western man superiority and his self righteouss morality.

The statement attests to that: "In the final analysis, however, it is the nature of the victim that decides the issues of morality: causing Western deaths is always ungodly and unpardonable; exterminating non-western peoples carries no such moral stigma. Terrorism, in short, is a Muslim invention, and like fanaticism must be applied exclusively to Islam."

I think it is a very well written piece...

Victoria (ref post 23 March 2007 3:06 AM):

First of all let me assure you that I respect the fact that you became a Muslim as a result of your spiritual search, having tried out several religions for yourself. I mentioned that in one of my posts to you as early as December 2006. I deeply respect the fact that you are widely read, have a very sharp intellect and respond with admirable grace to criticism about Islam or Muslims, and have a most remarkable style of communication that stands out in the crowd. I have noticed too that many have expressed their appreciation for all that in the way they respond to you and are keen to keep you engaged in the discussion.

You wrote: “possibly you weren’t aware that I was responding to a statement- that was defaming the Prophet (pbuh) for living as a householder. (ascetic term for people living in the world).”

Of course I was fully aware that you were responding to negative remarks made about Prophet Mohamed (PBUH). The negative remarks, as I understood them, were not about Mohammed (pbuh) having lived like a householder (the Hindu word for a non-Sannyasi), but about him having married several women, including a child, after the death of his first wife, with whom he was in a monogamous relationship for twenty five years. (I personally think that Mohamed’s (pbuh) first marriage to a widow fifteen years older than him, and his life in a monogamous happy relationship with her for twenty five years until her death, speaks a lot in favour of Mohamed’s generosity and capacity to love.) I understand that Muslim scholars have already engaged in lengthy discussions and multiple interpretations about the polygamous aspect of his life. I also understand that eight years after he started to live the life of polygamy, which was four years before his death at the age of sixty two, Mohamed (pbuh) received a message from heaven to the effect that other human beings were not to follow his example of marrying several women, but restrict the number of wives to a maximum of four, but ONLY if the man could love every single one of them equally, and with the consent of every wife before he married the next. An Indian Muslim friend of mine had explained to me long ago that in effect Mohamed (pbuh) was speaking out against polygamy by making a demand that is humanly impossible, i.e. To love four women in exactly the same way, and to get consent from all wives since no woman who loved her husband deeply would ever give honest consent to share her husband with another woman.

Having said that, the purpose of my response to your comments was not to discuss the rights and wrongs of Mohamed’s polygamy – there are enough Muslim scholars sufficiently interested in discussing it. Besides, Jews and Christians also have details written in the Old Testament which requires considerable effort to explain because they defy our common understanding of what is considered highest morality. Luckily prophets are not gods, and none of them asked the people to worship them and gave instructions to worship God, the Creator of the Universe. As a Christian of course I consider Jesus as Son of God, and not a Prophet. As far as Islam goes, I appreci