All Comments (64)

America is drenched in evangelicalism, an attenuated form of "Christianity." That's not the same thing as real Christianity.

Prof. Freitas,

I would be very interested in your thoughts on the current question, or should I say questions. There is, first, that posed by the moderators, and, then, the that (those) raised by
the Archbishop.

Prof. Freitas,

I would be very interested in your thoughts on the current question, or should I say questions. There is, first, that posed by the moderators, and, then, the that (those) raised by
the Archbishop.

Prof. Freitas,

I would be very interested in your thoughts on the current question, or should I say questions. There is, first, that posed by the moderators, and, then, the that (those) raised by
the Archbishop.

Prof. Freitas,

I would be very interested in your thoughts on the current question, or should I say questions. There is, first, that posed by the moderators, and, then, the that (those) raised by
the Archbishop.

Prof. Freitas,

I would be very interested in your thoughts on the current question, or should I say questions. There is, first, that posed by the moderators, and, then, the that (those) raised by
the Archbishop.

Merry Christmas- Jingle Bells
Christ is born and the devil's in hell
Hearts they shrink- Pockets swell
Everybody know and nobody tell

Oh- the sins of Caesar's men
Cry the pious citizens
Who petty thieve the 5 & 10s
And the big wheels turn around and around

Blame the angels- blame the fates
Blame the Jews or your sister Kate
Teach your children how to hate
And the big wheels turn around and around

Turn your back on weeds you've hoed
Silly sinful seeds you've sowed
Add your straw to the camel's load
Pray like hell when your world explode

Swing your girl- Fiddler say
Later on the piper pay
Do si dos, Swing and sway
Dead will dance on Judgement Day

Little Wheel Spin and Spin-
Big wheel turn around & around..

Well, I do appreciate that, B-man. The dude is just out of hand. :)

I think there'll be no more politics or theology, even of the snippy kind, from me tonight. :)

Ah, you want 'rational,' you can go back in time and un-screw my health care. You let these Christians put me through all that while blaming me for revoking their 'divine canopy,' you're lucky you get the gibberish. :)

I'm here to tell you, I'm in not-insignificant discomfort. Be nice. :)

Somewhere in the above pile of gibberish someone suggested that the founding fathers did not exist in a vacuum.

Quite so. Whether they were deists or Christians or secularists or whatever, they were not only well aware of the centuries of religious wars in Europe, but cognizant of the religious persecutions in Colonial America. Rhode Island was established for the express purpose of providing a sanctuary from religious intolerance, which was rampant at the time. Small communities of nitwits were tormenting or killing nitwits in other small communities. The Salem witch trials is a testament to the insanity. Where in God's name did they ever come up with the idea of witch hunts?

I don't care what led the founding fathers to establish the concept of separation of church and state. The important thing is that they did it and it was RATIONAL.

Oh, by the way, the disingenuous implications that it's not 'honest' to stand up for our American rights against those who would try to suborn them to religious authoritarian agendas?

Not helpful, either.

I meant to say JJ and others, not you, Arminius. My apologies. It does make me angry.

Cause, Arminius, I don't know what it is Arminius and CCNL claim they 'won't forget' but I was still breathing the smoke of the World Trade Center while Christians were blaming my existence for some 'Divine Canopy' being removed from America.

That I won't forget any time soon.

Gods know what these other people are on about.

Unless they have deleted something already, Arminius, I was *quoting* JJ above.

Which is probably a thankless gesture, but what can we do.

I have to say, sadly, I must concede, though, that they must block the dude. It's just noise. Can't even have a discussion without certain people spamming out any given thing.

As for what you are taken aback by, Arminius, certain Christians seem to have a way of claiming 9/11 and the aftermath thereof somehow uniquely qualifies them to make moral determinations about things.

My experience was they left an awful fricking lot for someone like yours truly to deal with till I literally collapsed in the street.

Which isn't too far from pre-9/11 either.

As in. People can stop flogging that, 'Would you like Arab abuse better, b**?" line.

Cause I know better.

Ok. I much prefer Hillary to McCain, myself.

None of this means you need to embarrass whatever idea of self you involve in this.

Turn. Off. The. Box.

Paganplace,

Well, I am taken aback by your reply. I don't think I really understand where you are coming from. I truly am not sure how I stand with you. I don't view you as some skinny, half-dead Wiccan priestess, I view you as a fellow human, an equal, perhaps better. I am not coming after you. If I misinterpret your words, please correct me.

Arminius

"Incredible the ignorance of the moderator and Christians here. Glad I'm not a Christian."

Hey, this is the land of the *free* and the home of the *brave.*

Like I said, we're holding space for em to come back. When they stop freaking out.

And since it just so happens that someone claiming to chide JJ managed to pull off whatever feat of coding it takes to turn one paragraph into twelve pages of spam, let me reiterate:

"America holds certain truths to be *self evident,* not dispensed or denied at the whim of certain religions.

It is not 'crap' to stand up for this birthright, and it dishonors the memory of those who were Christians among our founding fathers to reduce it to such.

You want a theocracy, then *you* go move to one."

Incredible the ignorance of the moderator and Christians here. Glad I'm not a Christian.

Ok.

JJ?

This is not the world.

This is a little piece of the Internet.

You are yet alive, and whatever it is you are trying to do here with all the spam is *not you.*

You. Living man.

Dig?

You're alive.

Ever notice how when people are trying to talk and they tune you out when you walk up and rant?

Maybe that's why you came here, but it's the same damn thing.

If you want attention, go ask for some. Nicely. In person.

Otherwise, shaddup while the supposed adults are talking. :)

Jeff P,

Thanks! A great work, downloaded, and playing now. You are absolutely right about music. You are a cool wind of sanity in this hot desert of madness.

Arminius

Parting gift for the evening (I'm going to bed!)

As tempers sometimes flare, at least there's one tonic that can lull us all into a peaceful evening's rest: music!

If anyone wants, I've made available one of my favorite pieces, from Samuel Barber, called "Adagio for Strings." It is simply one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever created, and I'd love to share it with anyone interested:

Once you get to my "page," just look below the "Beautiful Music" section to "Files," open the public folder called "Favorite Music Folder," and download and enjoy Adagio for Strings.

here's the link:

http://jeffpickens.spaces.live.com/

Sweet dreams to everyone...and thanks to all who I learn from here.

Arminius, I agree

I just left Susan Jacoby's site for the same thing--I felt like I was gleefully being shown the door to hell a few too many times!

Hang in there friend, the storm will pass!

I wish the moderators could do something about J. They have got to be able to get his ISP and put a block on it. Contact his server...he is being a menace and soon people will decide this forum is not worth putting up with his insanity for.

We had a nice jorum here...some of us learning about other's beliefs and in fact making friends...I think that is what it was created for.

terra

"a tsunami of hatred"

looks more like a tsunami of spam to me....

have you actually read those posts?

Never before have I visited a thread here so infected with vitriol and ignorance. Madness run wild.

Mr Mark, Paganplace, Freestinker, and B-Man, I stand with you. Here, we are the last bastion against a tsunami of hatred.

Arminius

"I could hammer you with opposing quotes too if I wanted, but they too would be irrelevant to the question of whether or not the Constitution establishes a secular government."

Hammer away Freestinker. America was founded by deeply religious men. Many were fleeing religious persecution. They established separation of religion and state to ensure FREEDOM to worship as they believed. Perhaps we need to review the meaning of the word secular:

SECULAR:
Pronunciation: \ˈse-kyə-lər\
Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French seculer, from Late Latin saecularis, from saeculum the present world, from Latin, generation, age, century, world; akin to Welsh hoedl lifetime
Date: 14th century

1 a: of or relating to the worldly or temporal b: not overtly or specifically religious c: not ecclesiastical or clerical

2: not bound by monastic vows or rules; specifically : of, relating to, or forming clergy not belonging to a religious order or congregation

3 a: occurring once in an age or a century b: existing or continuing through ages or centuries c: of or relating to a long term of indefinite duration

You seem to think SECULAR is synonymous with IRRELIGIOUS.

Better restink that. It's not.

The 10 commandments predate all of your manuscripts presented. At creation, for instance, God created the 7th day for a day of rest...Sabbath instituted before any Jews existed..Adam and Eve were given these laws of God long before Israel was chosen and re-given, if you will, the 10 Commandments. Abraham, Noah, etc kept Gods laws.

BTW...the 10 commandments are not Jewish laws. They were given to the 12 tribes of Israel. The Jews are descendants of the tribe of Judah. There were 11 other tribes. This is one of the most prevalent misconceptions about Gods law and who they apply to...which is all of mankind.

Just Saying,

The U.S. Constitution IS completely "absent of religion". That is exactly the point.

So you can quote the founders to your heart's content but that will never make the Constitution a religious document. Sheesh man, read it!

In fact, I could hammer you with opposing quotes too if I wanted, but they too would be irrelevant to the question of whether or not the Constitution establishes a secular government. It most certainly does.

So if you want to refute my claim, please quote the actual Constitution.

What asks,

"Do you have a name of a manuscript and/or references and its date regarding the 2 or 3 commandments that predate Christianity."

The Code of Hammurabi (also known as Codex Hammurabi) is one of the earliest and best preserved law codes from ancient Babylon, created ca. 1760 BC (middle chronology). It was enacted by the sixth Babylonian king, Hammurabi. Earlier collections of laws include the codex of Ur-Nammu, king of Ur (ca. 2050 BC), the Codex of Eshnunna (ca. 1930 BC) and the codex of Lipit-Ishtar of Isin (ca. 1870 BC).

Even Mosaic laws like the 10 commandments are Jewish laws, not Christian.

Many Native American and Ancient Chinese cultures also have equivilent laws that predate or were developed independent of Christianity.

The point being that Christianity is not embedded in our Constitution as Ms. Freitas asserts. Our Constitution is a completely secular document.

>>Its true. All clergies (Christian or Muslim) want power.

Another poorly orchestrated schmooze job...

ALL Christian clergies want power, do they?

Your not in touch with small town, side street churches who do their best to serve society.

TO DONNA FREITAS:

You wrote, " It’s whether we, as citizens, can come to terms with the fact that secularism is a theory, not a practical reality."

I am not exactly sure what secularism means but if at least part of it means, 'seperation of church and state', then it is something that seems so simple and direct but so many don't seem to get it.

I think God-Incarnate, Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, [the Chosen People], put it rather well and straight forward, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's".

Did America happen in a vacuum?

Some people seem to speak as if the whole history of mankind never happened before the American Constitution was written.

Just because some people are so anti-whatever, it is like they refuse to believe that people actually learned from the times that they lived in.

Also that they didn't learn from the times that they were taught about.

One of the reasons for the seperation of church and state is the fact that people wanted to have the freedom given by their Creator to relate to their Creator as they saw fit.

I read in one of these postings where someone pointed out that the word Creator was not in the Constitution but in the Bill of Rights or the Declaration of Independence, talk about picky and petty, what it does show is that at least some of the people that helped frame some of the original paperwork believed in something or Someone greater than themselves but that they had enough of True Christianity flowing in their veins that they were not going to force it by law on anyone else.

Also for the people that didn't believe in a Creator that they would be free to believe whatever they wished to believe.

Is it just me or does it seem that some of the people that wrap themselves in the flag the most, whether anti-theist, atheist, agnostic, monotheist, pantheist or whatever, believe the least in the ideals that the United States was founded on?

Take care, be ready, see you [humanity] in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Professor,

ALERT!

FYI...CTCNL has been doing his/her cut and paste on several threads lately of the same ol stuff.

Provides several web site references, refers to 1.5 million Jews (out of the over 13 million in the world...wonder what they think?) ...but never a bibliography of whence the rest of his/her points come from.

Sounds like a schmooooooooooooooze to moi!

We await CTCNL's reply!!

"If the founders were so darned full of Christian influence, why did they intentionally omit any reference to Jesus or the god of the bible from the Constitution?"

I repeat:

It was the division of church and state that was emphasized by the founding fathers- providing for FREEDOM OF RELIGION NOT ABSENCE OF RELIGION.

Sheesh man read..

But wow those are great quotes and certainly reveal the religious hearts and minds that formed this country and that's only a beginning sample. They were prolific writers- so don't provoke me..

: )

Just Saying,

Nice quotes. Wow!

I didn't realize the Constitution said all that.

If the founders were so darned full of Christian influence, why did they intentionally omit any reference to Jesus or the god of the bible from the Constitution?

Just sayin'.

For Asst. Prof. Freitas' edification since she apparently needs to catch up with History and Reality: (for her eyes only since the rest of you are up-to-date)

A synopsis of the flaws in the founders and foundations of the major religions

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven,warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

And we await the Assistant Professor's reply!!!

"I'm not paranoid enough to worry about Muslim law coming here to America"

Paganplace- America is a christian majority nation that believes in freedom of religion. Then again so was Britain..

"The spiritual leader of the global Anglican church on Monday defended controversial remarks that Britain should consider formally recognizing aspects of Islamic law, but conceded that his choice of words in broaching the issue may have been misleading.

Rowan Williams, the archbishop of Canterbury, has been a fixture in the headlines here since comments last Thursday on a radio program that integration of parts of Muslim law, or sharia, was "unavoidable." Later, in a lecture to the Royal Courts of Justice, he declared that a "constructive relationship between Islamic law and the statutory law of the United Kingdom" could be considered."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/11/AR2008021102783.html?hpid=sec-religion

Freestinker,

>>Maybe so, maybe not

I tend to the maybe so side.

Also..

Do you have a name of a manuscript and/or references and its date regarding the 2 or 3 commandments that predate Christianity.

Would be interested to see it.

Thanks..and all the best...

Its true. All clergies (Christian or Muslim) want power. Woe to any of us who live under their rule. They make the rules and you have to abide by them. Christian or Muslim...The Spanish Inquisition is a good example of religious extremism in a Christian country.

Its the Christian Right now who want all of us to play by their rules. I am so glad we live in an "A-theistic" country where we are free to worship any religion we please. Thank the wisdom of our country's founders for keeping church & stage separate.

Free reading for Freestinker-

"The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations."

"This will be the best security for maintaining our liberties. A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins."

"God grant that not only the love of liberty but a thorough knowledge of the rights of man may pervade all the nations of the earth"

“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.”

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity religion and morality are indispensable supports."

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure if we have removed their only firm basis: a conviction in the minds of men that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."

"The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: 'that God governs in the affairs of men.' And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"

"Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority for that law which is divine...far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other."

What? says:

"Im sure the 2 or 3 you mention are what I am referring to. Although, if all were followed even in the most basic of their intent, IMO...we would not have many of the problems this world suffers."

Maybe so and maybe not.

In any case, you are free to follow whatever commandments you like but 7 out of 10 don't "match the laws of the land" and the 2-3 that do predate Christianity by thousands of years.

And forgive the repetition, but JJ is spamming again:

"Paganplace-

"You are a pagan living among a majority of christians and sheltering under their sacred canopy. Would you prefer to be a practicing pagan living among muslems in an islamic nation where there is sharia law instead of a sacred canopy? Pagans have no majority in society. Where will you shelter? Maybe it is time for you to cut the crap."

Maybe you thinking that way is exactly why this isn't 'crap.'"

New material:

That's important.

Pagan with a capital P, thanks. We are people. Proper noun. You capitalize those, if you haven't gutted the education system enough to have taught yourself otherwise.

Again, that's why it's important.

No, I'm not paranoid enough to worry about Muslim law coming here to America, and for that matter, it wouldn't look all that *different* after some of what I've been through.

Someone trying would just be someplace else for certain Christians to point the shotgun. I'm talking about America, here. Remember? The America that ain't like that over some 'sacred law?'

America holds certain truths to be *self evident,* not dispensed or denied at the whim of certain religions.

It is not 'crap' to stand up for this birthright, and it dishonors the memory of those who were Christians among our founding fathers to reduce it to such.

You want a theocracy, then *you* go move to one.

Just Saying says:

"It was the division of church and state that was emphasized by the founding fathers- providing for freedom of religion not absence of religion."

Precisely. The Constitution guarantees both freedom of and freedom from religion. It does so by remaining silent (i.e. neutral) on matters of religious opinion.

But Ms. Freitas incorrectly blurrs the distinction between citizens' beliefs and the secular law the founders established with the Constitution. This is unfortunate because it is precisely that division (by law) of church and state that has allowed religion to flourish in our country. Evidently, you have made the same mistake.

George Washington and Ben Franklin were both Deists and John Adams was a Unitarian. But the debate isn't about the personal religious beliefs of the founders or framers. The debate is about whether or not Christianity is "embedded in the Constitution" as Ms. Freitas puts it. It certainly is not but I invite you to quote the Constitution wherever you think I am wrong.

"Paganplace-

"You are a pagan living among a majority of christians and sheltering under their sacred canopy. Would you prefer to be a practicing pagan living among muslems in an islamic nation where there is sharia law instead of a sacred canopy? Pagans have no majority in society. Where will you shelter? Maybe it is time for you to cut the crap."

Maybe you thinking that way is exactly why this isn't 'crap.'

"So the way I see it, I'm helping hold space for you, any time you wanna come back to America, Christians."

Paganplace-

You are a pagan living among a majority of christians and sheltering under their sacred canopy. Would you prefer to be a practicing pagan living among muslems in an islamic nation where there is sharia law instead of a sacred canopy? Pagans have no majority in society. Where will you shelter? Maybe it is time for you to cut the crap.

"It was the division of church and state that was emphasized by the founding fathers- providing for freedom of religion not absence of religion."

As I like to say, 'There is no religion in compulsion.'

What I see from those who claim to speak for 'Christian America' is a lot of turning away of huddled masses yearning to breathe free.

You wanna claim the credit for America, you bloody well start living up to it.

You claim justification to disenfranchise 'atheists' with those stock phrases about 'It's not freedom *from* religion, as if you don't attack the freedoms of religious folk like myself and your own liberals in just the same way.

Freestinker-

The vast majority of the founding fathers were Christians and they viewed religion in a favorable light. This is noted in their statements in speeches and letters where they describe its role in molding the morality of our nation. Belief in religion also secures the rule of law (George Washington), its check on human wickedness (Benjamin Franklin), and its preservation of a free government such as America (John Adams).

It was the division of church and state that was emphasized by the founding fathers- providing for freedom of religion not absence of religion.

Better do some restinking...

The laws of the land that match the 10 commandments.

Im sure the 2 or 3 you mention are what I am referring to. Although, if all were followed even in the most basic of their intent, IMO...we would not have many of the problems this world suffers.

All the best

Well, Craig:

" Craig:

"I loved this essay. The truth is the American culture is heavily influenced by the Judeo-Christian religions. It was not a purposeful inclusion of Christian theory/dogma/whatever. It was simply ingrained in the daily lives of the vast majority of people who settled the land. How can American society not be steeped in it? The settlers who really created the country weren't Hindu, weren't Muslim, weren't Buddhist...they were Christian, for the most part."

But they were, often, culturally-Christian Enlightenment Deists who *explicitly* included these groups in our religious freedom, ...in a treaty regarding those 'Shores of Tripoli,' if you need it spelled out.

Certainly, there have been good Christian influences on the founding of America. Stuff about being a good neighbor and avoiding government corruption by religion, so both can be relatively poor.

Good neighbors kind of stuff, and explicitly *not* imposition of religion on our liberties.

Good on you.

Pardon if I hold you to these rights. Even if you're a bit scared.

Cause now they're mine by birthright.

And yours.

You'll be wanting em later. So the way I see it, I'm helping hold space for you, any time you wanna come back to America, Christians. :)

What? says,

"But the remainder of us know the fallacy of saying something such as that, especially with regard to laws of the land that match, for instance, the 10 commandments."

Really? How many of the 10 commandments (assuming we could agree on which version to use) match the laws of the land?

I can only think of 2 (maybe 3 at best) and those 3 are certainly not unique to Christianity.

Ms. Freitas has confused "the country" which is decidedly religious and Christian in particlaur with "the Constitution" and the form of Government it established which is decidely secular.

If Christianity is "embedded in the Constitution", why can't I seem to find any reference to Jesus or the god of the bible anywhere in my copy? Who's Constitution is she referring to? Certainly not the U.S. Constitution!

Mr.Mark,

You presented no questions (?) that I recall. I did see your rhetorical-psuedo 'what if's'...therefore I addressed no questions, but merely commented on the statements you presened.

And with regard to most all of your scenarios, there are not many stories that make it into the news that people are attempting these 'God told me to do's ....' Granted, Im sure there are some. But the remainder of us know the fallacy of saying something such as that, especially with regard to laws of the land that match, for instance, the 10 commandments.

Moot points in a moot court.

All the best.

We need:

"a deeper, more truthful conversation about how intensely religion, and in particular Christianity, is embedded in American politics, law, and the constitution."

I believe the only way one can truly understand the "Christian Right" is to take a serious look at what caused them to form. They are a direct reaction to the legal changes made in the not-so-distant past-- no school prayer (1962) Roe vs Wade (1973) etc...

There is significant evidence that the majority of Americans would prefer to live under the "sacred canopy" of traditional Judeo-Christian values.

The posters on this forum are sadly out of touch with their neighbors. They better fasten their seatbelts-- its going to be a bumpy ride to November..

I should clarify..that "Works for me" means involving God in the right way actually backs up our actions and, additionally, the same is seen by our laws for the most part. In other words, it works both ways very well for the most part. Only those deluded to say something like 'God made me do something (that He would not back up)' will get anyone...nowhere. Thats an elementary fact.

All the best

Dear What? -

I can only assume it works for you because you didn't address my questions.

As far as marriage goes, no court in the land would hold legally binding a marriage without a state-issued marriage certificate. My question had nothing to do with serving on a jury, and you know it. Your throwing in the jury duty aspect is a poor attempt to muddy the waters.

As far as Jesus running for public office: it doesn't matter if he wanted to run our not. The fact is that one can't enter the names of imaginary people as candidates and have the state accept that nomination. However, a dead person can run for office, provided they were a) a real person, and b) not dead when they filed their candidacy.

If you're John Asscroft, you can lose to a dead person. If you're Jesus, your dead prima facia.

As far as paying/not paying taxes: a) no court in the land would admit what Jesus said in the Bible as evidence in a court of law. It would be immaterial to the case; b) only a Bronze-Aged religionist would hold that god's revealed wisdom ended 2,000 years ago. Indeed, the Bible is full of sayings by, " [people] who are deluded enough to say that Jesus/[god] told me..." one thing or the other.

Are you saying that Mormonism is a total hoax? That god didn't reveal himself to Joseph Smith? Are you saying that god couldn't reveal himself to someone today with the admonition that they stop rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's? How could anyone who believes in the Second Covenant believe that god doesn't have the right to change his mind and reveal those changes to humans? Considering how drastically god changed his mind about what type of messiah he was going to send to Earth, wouldn't a change on paying taxes be small fry?

Back to you, What?.

A few comments to the points made above...

>> enter into a marriage without the necessary legal sanction of the government. See how quickly your "church-only sanctioned" marriage is under assault by the state.

The first mention of marriage in scripture is in the book of Exodus...dated approx. 1400 BC. Most Christians see the marriage covenant as God-ordained. We live in a society that also requires involvement by the state for a myriad of reasons. I think most people, Christians included, can live with that.

>>• use "Jesus/god told me to do it" as a defense in any court of law. See whether or not that one gets you off the hook for an infraction of the law.

There are many people of faith who do not feel they are in a position to judge others due to their interpretation of scripture (which they feel is how God 'tells them to do it') and are excused from jury duty...or perhaps those who believe the 7th day of the week is still the Sabbath, had a conflict on their job with that, and came out with the court recognizing that their conviction was sincere and valid. As far as infractions (stealing, lying, cheating, killing)...I believe the 10 commandments would back up our judicial system and vice-versa. No getting around that.

>>• Nominate Jesus for any political office in the USA, including dog catcher.

He has/had no intention to run. John 18:36

>>• Refuse to pay your income taxes because Jesus told you not to.

Jesus didnt/wouldnt tell anyone that. Matt 22:21.
Here again, someone who is deluded enough to say that Jesus told me not to will certainly have to answer for himself.

>>Get back to me on how that all works out for you.

Works for me.

I loved this essay. The truth is the American culture is heavily influenced by the Judeo-Christian religions. It was not a purposeful inclusion of Christian theory/dogma/whatever. It was simply ingrained in the daily lives of the vast majority of people who settled the land. How can American society not be steeped in it? The settlers who really created the country weren't Hindu, weren't Muslim, weren't Buddhist...they were Christian, for the most part.

I think many cannot see this because the Christian bias is so embedded in American culture. The bias isn't even recognized as being religious anymore, because most Americans don't think of their culture as religiously influenced. These biases are now part of American culture - so they're not religious values anymore, they are American values.

Many cities have bylaws that specify that new buildings cannot be made higher than the local church. Many stores were closed on Sundays (until recently) to observe the Christian Sabbath. Restaurants still serve a fish special on Fridays. These are all just some of the more obvious examples of the Christian bias in North America.

The reality is that North America has deep Judeo-Christian roots, whether anyone wants to believe it or not.

That is not to say, though, that the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation - obviously the intent was to found a nation that welcomed all religions, but belonged to none. That doesn't mean that religion didn't play a huge role in shaping the country, though.

Craig

To any one who believes that "secularism is only a theory" in this country, try the following:

• enter into a marriage without the necessary legal sanction of the government. See how quickly your "church-only sanctioned" marriage is under assault by the state.

• use "Jesus/god told me to do it" as a defense in any court of law. See whether or not that one gets you off the hook for an infraction of the law.

• Nominate Jesus for any political office in the USA, inc