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Archbishop Desmond Tutu: “If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn’t worship that God”

A Christian Response.

It is very unfortunate that Desmond Tutu, archbishop emeritus of the church of the Province of South Africa is afforded any currency, by anyone, when he makes utterances about how the Christian Church, or how Christians should behave. There are several reasons for this; the first being that he lacks a moral compass which is governed by the handbook for all Christians, the Bible, which also happens to be the primary written source for theology of Christianity. Instead, any moral compass which he may claim to have is calibrated and governed by the ever shifting opinions and standards of what is now largely known as a post-modern, non-Christian world. The term politically correct habituates comfortably there. Post-modernism denies that there can be any universal truth (one truth relevant and applicable to all people anywhere in the world) or any abiding truth (a truth that holds true for all time). Relativism and pluralism is the offspring of such a philosophy and an utterer of a muthos which refuses any subjection to the Logos (Christ). Plato said in Charmides: “We should not at all be concerned with who said it, but whether it is true or not.” For a Christian, the only reference for truth, or as Francis Schaeffer calls it, “true truth”, is the Bible itself and that book exhorts any listener to so-called truths to verify such claims of truth against its own documented true truths. The Bible is the sole standard against which any claimed truth may be measured against and verified and ratified, or not.

To understand how and why Tutu believes and says what he does, one needs to look back into the history of the Church of England to see where the very first fissure formed within its ranks, which over time has developed into a chasm dividing its members into two distinct camps, a chasm that will probably never be able to be bridged again. After fomenting as a conspiracy in 1833, in Oxford, it is ironic that the palpable cracks started in South Africa (Tutu’s birthplace), in March 1847, with the appointment of Robert Gray as the first bishop of the Church of England in South Africa. Gray was a member of a conspiratorial group of mainly Oxford academics known variously as “The Oxford Movement”, “Tractarians” and “Anglo-Catholics” working secretly and subversively against the constitutional articles of the Church of England. They believed that the historic schism of the mid sixteenth century reformation and the formation of a protestant “Church of England” by Henry viii was a big mistake. The true church was, and always would be the Roman Catholic Church. It was with this philosophy that Gray arrived in Cape Town and caused pandemonium amongst the local church’s adherents and clergy. Within seven days he renamed St George’s Church, St George’s Cathedral. After a while, when a number of clergymen remonstrated with him, accusing him of trying to impose a form of religious practice foreign to the thirty nine articles of faith of the Church of England, he withdrew their stipends and refused one of them permission to preach in his own church. He also put padlocks on the doors of another church. They eventually took him to the Supreme Court of the land and won their cases against him. Ever since then, that branch of the Anglican Church (from which many rotten apples have fallen) can only be known in South Africa as the Church of the Province of South Africa, whereas the original adherents have been known as the Church of England in South Africa. When it suited Gray, he appealed to the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Privy Council for help (to get bishop Colenso excommunicated among other things), when it did not suit him (when his superiors in England, including the Archbishop of Canterbury, concurred with the clergy in South Africa and attempted to discipline him), he ignored them and claimed that although his church was in union and communion with the mother church in England, it was not under its disciplinary control. Gray once said in a letter: “I am afraid that my dear brethren Wilberforce (bishop of Oxford) and Hamilton (bishop of Salisbury) regard me as obstinate, self willed, determined at all hazards to force the mother church to recognition of my proceedings or else to incur the risk of schism. The two archbishops (York and Canterbury) opposed all that we did with bitterness and vehement hostility. We cannot and dare not trust these to select a bishop for this land. We shall probably have, in our provincial synod, to protest against this act of the Archbishop of Canterbury for interfering canonically in the affairs of this province, with which he had no connections, ecclesiastically or legally.” Gray was of course wrong on both counts but he was determined to force his extrabiblical ideology onto the clergy and laity under his control in South Africa.
Sadly, the main body of the Church of England, in England, eventually acquiesced to the Oxford movement’s philosophy over the years and only a small minority of churches known as the “low church” remain faithful to the thirty nine articles of faith of the established Church of England. Gray did not want the job of bishop in the first place and told a friend in a letter, before his appointment, that he was not a spiritual person and that the church had many better qualified people than himself to do the job. It has taken the Anglican Church in its mother country 160 years to come to a similar chasm within its ranks that had formed in South Africa in the mid nineteenth century.

The reason why this brief background is given, is that even though much of the theology perpetuated by like minded adherents, past and present, was home-spun and morphed into the predominant philosophies of the day, the thread which weaved its way through the warp and woof of so-called Anglo-Catholicism, was the weighting given by the Roman Catholic Church and this group (the Anglo Catholics), to extra-biblical factors i.e. church tradition, anthropomorphic philosophies, decisions taken by church councils, the opinions of prelates, archbishops or presiding bishops etc. At very best, these aspects of societal and church life have been given equal weighting to biblical precepts and directives. At worst they have taken primacy over the word of God. The so-called “high” Anglican Church (which the Anglo Catholic church is known as today) has a history of at least 140 years where it has not in the main, based its theological decisions exclusively on the tenets of the Bible. Its leaders mostly have concurred with today’s Post-moderns and other non, or anti Christians, that the Bible does not contain definitive, universal and abiding truths which do not date and become passé and which are applicable in any and all contexts that affect humankind. There is little or no reverence and awe for the Bible and its precepts, or for God and His Christ for that matter. The true Christian uses the Bible as his or her moral compass, for faith, direction, contemplation and praxis.

The second major reason why Tutu should not be given any currency when he utters statements which elucidate various aspects of his worldview, is that he is not a Christian.
He makes Christian noises, wears clerical garb and large crosses that dangle around his neck and quotes from the Bible, but he is not a Christian. In this case, even though it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, makes a noise like a duck… it is not a duck and what it says is not all that it’s quacked up to be. He is, in reality, a holist, pantheist, humanist, Marxist and Universalist. He admits to most of these appellations himself. It is for this reason that he proclaims: “Because love is universal. I mean, you don’t have to believe in God to know that loving is better than hating. We are trying to remind them that all of us are fundamentally good. The aberration is the bad person. God is not upset that Gandhi was not a Christian, because God is not a Christian! All of God's children and their different faiths help us to realize the immensity of God. No faith contains the whole truth about God. And certainly Christians don’t have a corner on God. All of us belong to God. Even the nonbeliever is precious to God. And one simply tries to remind them that they are made for transcendence. They are made for goodness.” and “All of us are God's children. I frequently say, I'm so glad I'm not God! Can you imagine having to say, “Bin Laden is my child. Saddam Hussein is my child. George Bush is my child.” Oh! All of them, including me. Can you imagine what God must have felt watching the Holocaust? Watching Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Watching Rwanda? Can you imagine God watching Darfur? Imagine God watching Iraq and saying, “These are my children here, and they are killing my other children. And I can't do anything because I have said to them, 'I give you the space to be you and that space enables you to make choices. And I can't stop you when you make the wrong choices. All I can do is sit here and cry.'” And God cries until God sees beautiful people who care, even if they may not do earth-shattering things.” That belief is not borne of the Christian Bible; it comes from a mish mash of eastern belief systems with Tutu’s own homespun ideas from the god he created in his own image. According to the Bible, we are not all fundamentally good, in fact it states quite the opposite: “For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God” and what are the consequences arising from that situation? “For the wages of sin is (eternal) death but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.” That gift is also not given to all humanity but only to those who repent of their sinfulness and accept the gift of life through Christ. The Bible is also very clear about the fact that all of God’s human creations are not automatically His children, or members of His family and He does not automatically show favour toward the great majority of them. It is only after a process of each individual recognizing and acknowledging their state of sinfulness and inability to please God, and repentance of sin, as well as a personal invitation for Jesus to come and spiritually inhabit them and empower them to transform and turn away from their sinful lives, that they can become members of God’s family. It seems like a long winded cumbersome rite but its not. It can happen in seconds. An individual can go through that whole process by just saying: “O God help me”, meaning that he or she wants God to transform them from being a lost soul to one who is saved from eternal damnation. The Bible says: “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in him, he gave the right to become children of God.” John 1: 12. Yet Tutu says: “In God’s family, there are no outsiders, no enemies. Black and white, rich and poor, gay and straight, Jew and Arab, Muslim and Christian, Hindu and Buddhist, Hutu and Tutsi, Pakistani and Indian—all belong.” Tutu’s philosophy says that all are God’s children, but the Christian Bible says that only by a true belief in Christ and an invitation for Him to come and inhabit and rule over an individual, can anyone become a child of God and then, one only maintains that status if one “remains in Christ and He in you” or else “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up and thrown into the fire and burned.”

Tutu has said on occasion that he is not holy. Far be it as a result of self effacing modesty, or because of his lying, or his habit of knocking back a daily glass or two of rum and coke; there is a very good reason why Tutu makes a statement like that. Holiness, or being holy, means being set apart. Obviously because of his experiences in South Africa of Apartheid, he is averse to any belief system that requires people to be separated, but this is not the only reason for his aversion. His worldview of Holism or Universalism and Humanism believes that God is in everything and that everything is in God and ultimately, everyone is God. Concomitantly, no one is separated, or excluded from God. It is a very attractive and comforting philosophy, but it is not biblical and consequently not Christian. God states in the Bible: “Be Holy as I am Holy”. It is not a suggestion or a request, but a directive. How do we become holy then? The Bible tells us that His Holy Spirit sanctifies us and makes us holy and that we access God the Father by one Spirit. Uttering one of his many theological inventions, Tutu once said from St Albans cathedral Pretoria: “The Holy Spirit is not limited to the Christian church; for example, Mahatma Ghandi, who is a Hindu, the Holy Spirit shines through him.” Not only is such a statement blasphemous, but there is absolutely nothing in the Bible that can lead someone to make such an assumption. The Bible states: “This is how you can recognise the Spirit of God: Every Spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is in the world.” Hinduism believes in and worships multiple deities. The Bible states that there is only one God and that he is only accessible through Jesus Christ. Ghandi never believed nor propagated that, nor does the Dalai Lama, nor does Desmond Tutu.

Tutu also said: “Can you imagine that there are those who think God is a Christian? Can you tell us what God was before he was a Christian?” as well as “Most of us think God is a Christian, but if you think that God is going to tell the Dalai Lama 'you're a good person, but sorry you're not a Christian' then (I say) rubbish.” Tutu is usually very astute with his turn of phrase when he says something controversial and mostly tries to play linguistic chess so that he can argue his way out of a situation when challenged by Bible believing Christians. Of course God is not a Christian, but what Tutu clearly infers here and on numerous other occasions, is that God is not only defined as He is defined by Christians, but equally validly defined and understood by many, all, other faiths. Tutu has his own “Peace Prayer” in which he states inter alia: “Oh God, all Holy one, you are our Mother and our Father and we are your children. Open our eyes and our hearts that we may be able to discern your work in the universe, and be able to see your features in every one of your children. May we learn that there are many paths, but all lead to You. Help us to know that you have created us Members of the same family Your family, the human family.” But the Christian Bible states: “But there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” One God, one path, one mediator, Jesus Christ. As Jesus said in His own words: “No man comes to the Father except through me.” None of the aforementioned people believe that; including Tutu.

Thirdly, no true Christian can utter the blasphemies that God is: “a God of disgracefully loose standards”, “His (God’s) standards are quite low”. “Jesus revolutionised religion by showing that God is a “disreputable” God – a God who accepts unconditionally and rejoices when everyone is included in a fair and just society.” Imagine what would happen to Tutu if he pretended to be a Moslem and spoke of “Allah” in those terms. God’s standards are of the highest and most demanding. He says in the Bible: “Be perfect as I am perfect” an impossible state for us to attain without the only perfect man ever to walk this earth, Jesus, inhabiting us and empowering us so that we become juridically perfect in God’s sight. His acceptance of those wishing to come to Him is not unconditional, His acceptance is to those who repent and turn from their sinful living. Obviously Tutu in his irreverent characterisation of God is trying to make the point that God accepts all-comers irrespective of their status in society, or their spiritual, or physical condition. He does indeed accept all of the aforementioned and more, but Tutu makes a disingenuous or ignorant extrapolation from that truth to the assertion that God is the friend of all societal misfits, even if they continue living their same lives, after coming to a spiritual meeting with Him. When Jesus rescued a prostitute from being stoned by a mob and told her that He would not condemn her, He said to her: “Go now and leave your life of sin. The Bible is full of allegories and metaphors using prostitution as an illustration to the vileness of individuals, the nation of Israel and the like. With Tutu the single tax collector, prostitute, thief and adulteress with whom Jesus encountered and transformed, they have become plural so Jesus is the friend of tax collectors, prostitutes etc. It is important to note that none of the abovementioned returned to their previous way of living. Tutu says further: “Everyone, everyone, without exception, everyone, even the most unlikely, even the most undeserving -- the down-and-outs, the derelicts, the louts, the drug addicts, the substance abusers, the prostitutes, the pimps -- if we had but the eyes to see, we would discern even in dark conditions, that they were God-carriers, precious in the sight of God, with a value that cannot be computed.” Only in Pantheism and Holism, not biblical Christianity.

We now come to the latest furore caused by Tutu’s utterings. This article was inspired by the headline emblazoned in a local newspaper in Cape Town, South Africa which stated: “‘I wouldn’t worship an anti-gay God- Tutu’. The report was based on an interview with Tutu on a B.B.C. radio programme in which he actually said: “If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn’t worship that God.” Well, he does not worship that God… for now, at any rate; but the Bible tells us that there will come a time, after this current dispensation on earth, that “at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” That includes Satan, Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, Desmond Tutu et al. The worship will not be voluntary.

The homosexual debate within Christianity has raged on for ages now, with the liberal left escalating pressures on Christians to accept that homosexuality is acceptable in the sight of God and that it is only conservative killjoys who have not progressed with the rest of enlightened society to see that the view that homosexuality is a sin, is a draconian concept borne out of many of misconceptions and misinterpretations of Old Testament scriptures. There is no misinterpretation of God’s Holy Scriptures, the Bible, which tells us of God’s hatred and abhorrence for acts of homosexuality. There are many places in the Bible clearly stating this. And it is not only the Old Testament which expounds this truth. We are told in the book of Corinthians for instance: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God”. That is explicit and clear. There is no mistranslation or misunderstanding about the status of homosexuals. Firstly they are categorised as “wicked”, then as “offenders” and finally, they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. You will notice that most of these people are representative of people who Tutu claims are “God-carriers” and are deeply loved by God.

Tutu said further in the B.B.C. interview: “It is a perversion if you say to me that a person chooses to be homosexual”. Well, a person chooses to be homosexual. There may be indeterminable debates regarding whether people are born with a predilection to liking members of their own sex, but such a person should rightly be known as a homophile. Unless a person is being raped or being forced to partake in sex against their will, all people choose to have sex, hence homosexuals choose to partake in same sex activities unless, as I say, they have been forced or coerced in some way to do so. It is not a sin to be a homophile but it is to be homosexual. Tutu says it is a perversion to say that it’s a person’s choice to commit a homosexual act, but the Bible says in the Old Testament: “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.” and in the New Testament: “Men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.” Homosexuality is the perversion according to the Bible, not someone saying that it is a choice. Again, Tutu is disingenuous when he intimates in all his discussions about the subject matter, that those who say that homosexuality is abhorrent to God and unacceptable to Him are also saying that God rejects homosexuals coming to Him for salvation and eternal life. That is not true. God accepts anyone, including homosexuals, but He does not condone the perpetuation of a homosexual lifestyle, or give even a tacit approval to such a lifestyle. It would make a mockery of the veracity of the Bible if it says on the one hand that God abhors homosexuality and sees it as a perversion of human sexuality, while on the other hand, he condones it and states that a part of Him is in all homosexuals. No, the Bible does not make that ridiculous dichotomy, Desmond Tutu does.

Both Jew and Moslems take pride in their claims that their holy scriptures have remained the same over aeons and are unchangeable. The Christian Bible is no different in that regard. It is not malleable and does not change according to the latest philosophy or politically correct fad. Homosexuality was a sin in the Old Testament era and it remains a sin in the New Testament era. One can feel for people who are caught up in that lifestyle and who struggle with it, but the worst disservice anyone could do toward such people is to validate the lifestyle and to tell them that what they are doing is natural and fine and that anyone who speaks against it is a bigot. The Bible states that it is unnatural. Ministers of the Gospel have an awesome responsibility toward God’s flock, who often look to them for guidance. They will come under great scrutiny from God and as God said to the rabbis of old in the book of Isaiah, He will say the same to modern day ministers who invent theologies and philosophies in place of God’s revealed word to humankind. “Israel’s watchmen are blind, they all lack knowledge; they are all mute dogs, they cannot bark; they lie around and dream, they love to sleep. They are dogs with mighty appetites; they never have enough. They are shepherds who lack understanding; they all turn to their own way, each seeks his own gain. ‘Come, each one cries, ‘let me get wine! Let us drink our fill of beer! And tomorrow will be like today, or even far better.”

It would appear that Tutu’s belief that homosexuality is not a choice, indeed possibly even a gift from God, was formed when that great icon of the Anglican Church, Trevor Huddleston visited him in hospital as a child when he was suffering from tuberculosis. A close friendship formed between the two which remained till Huddleston’s dying day. Huddleston was a pederast (one who has sexual relations with boys), or what we more commonly know today as a paedophile. He was one of a multitude of Anglican homosexual clerics past and present, in South Africa, England and the rest of the world. Tutu’s church in South Africa (Church of the Province, either covers up incidents of its priests molesting boys, or it moves them to other dioceses, or it promotes them to bishop as is the case with at least one of its current bishops). When Huddleston was finally caught molesting boys in England after returning to his homeland from a sojourn in South Africa, the Anglican church there, not only covered it up (after paying the boys’ parents compensation), he was promoted to Archbishop of the see (sea) of the Indian Ocean. He was regularly seen with boys on his lap, or touching them even while holding conversations with adults.

Tutu avers that “the church is obsessed with the question of human sexuality”. The truth of the matter is that liberals within the Anglican church, the Roman Catholic Church, as well as other churches, have relentlessly kept the pressure up over the past decades in ever increasing measures to make homosexuality palatable and acceptable, not only to society in general, but to the Christian Church. The obsession is not with Christians or churches faithful to the Bible, but with those who are hell bent on forcing it into the Christian canon. The chasm is growing deeper and wider. The sheep and the goats are being separated, as are the weeds and the wheat. Maranatha!!!

Maybe the majority of the readers of this article will howl in disgust and disapprove of its assertions and certainly point out that they are not politically correct etc., and they certainly have the right to hold any opinion or worldview they wish to hold, but what it attempts to do is to show any objective reader (as opposed to readers with, what the Bible describes as having ‘itchy ears, i.e. hearing what they want to hear), that when it comes to representing Christianity and its Bible, Archbishop emeritus, Desmond Tutu, does not in anyway legitimately represent, or accurately portray and interpret either Christianity or the Bible. He, as anyone else has the right to opinions and philosophies; he has, however, no right to purportedly speak for God, His Christ, or His Church through his utterings over the past few decades till now.
God have mercy on his soul.

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There's a little known fact that Archbishop Tutu visited the Nelson Mandela School in Sparkbrook, Birmingham, UK in the late 1980's. Pogus Caesar an established black photographer documented Tutu's visit, the pictures can be viewed at oom Gallery a British based online archive.

I've not been involved in this particular thread but a whole bunch of entries ago I heard someone, Robin?, ask Truth amoung others for the scriptural reference to where Jesus comments on the sin of homosexuality. I was intrigued and sure that an attempt would be made to do that, but I've scanned down, a long ways down the thread and no where do I see any such reference offered. To my knowledge that is in large part because there is no such reference. Am I wrong more studied students of scripture?

Do we wish to live in the old testament or the new testament brought to us by the miracle of Jesus? As a Christian Quaker I choose Jesus and the new testament with its focus on love and inclusion.

Gerry,

To clarify: Homosexuals, heterosexuals, and bisexuals can indeed be hurt if they have an STD and they can hurt/destroy others by transferring said diseases to their partners.

Concerned,

That is my point: Nobody. Nobody is hurt by someone else being gay, or straight, for that matter.

The sexual obsession in this discussion (Shearer brandishing his hell!), therefore, points to a quite different direction: The destructive "sin" factor of sex in monotheistic religions. But that is not the issue here.

Of course, people can transfer STD no matter if they are gay or straight - so again: Nobody is hurt. The "abomination" is a product of religious bigotry.

Gerry,

You asked: "The only really "moral" and reasonable question could only be, "who is hurt by someone else being homosexual )"? The answer: Nobody,..............."

No one as long as said homosexual is free of STDs.

Ditto for heterosexuals and bisexuals!!!

There are rather strong scientific findings available about homosexuality. It is funny that everybody has an opinion about it without referring to the known facts. And if an unfounded opinion is attached to religious zeal, the result must necessarily be nonsense. (It reminds me of the Grand Canyon nonsense, with people having an "opinion" about the 6000 years' earth age and attach it to religion. The whole halfway educated world erupts in laughter about this attitude: "It feels so good to be stupid, therefore I want to stay that way!")

The only really "moral" and reasonable question could only be, "who is hurt by someone else being homosexual"? The answer: Nobody, unless by the sex-obsessed homophobic zealots.

BTW I do not rule out the possibility that there may be some pseudo-homosexuals out there, those who are merely confused about their real sexuality and who have resorted to homosexuality in response to a trauma at some time in their lives. It may well be that such homosexuals would revert to or become heterosexual after the effect of the trauma has healed. That is however a complex issue that can be handled only by an appropriate health professional. Prayer is good but it must go hand in hand with the means God has provided for healing through the knowledge revealed to health professionals. It is up to a homosexual to decide whether they feel in need of such clarification and help or not, and nothing must be forced.

To me, any emanation of a person who pretends to be in the possession of truth, even if only as an alias, is to be mistrusted completely. (I, too, think it is our old zealot friend Shearer). The essence of lie is the pretense of truth.

"Truth" was the agent of all desasters in human history, mostly faith-based, but also atheist (Communism claimes scientific truth).

The only thing the "truth" poster reveals, is an unbelievably huge interest in homosexuality. He never derives his conclusions from reason, but exclusively from bible quotations (OT, "sin"), which, since his religion is a closed system, don't mean anything outside this system. A "reasonable" question would be, who is hurt by homosexuality, a stupid question is, if it is a "sin".

Life is change, evolution, development, trial and error, adaptation, balance, progress. "Truth", especially in its "eternal" form, is stagnation. The only conceivable perfect stagnation is death. "Truth" in the absolute sense is death. Truth in the striving, asking, changing, doubting, developing - relative sense is life.

Robin

Many thanks for your kind words. Don't worry I didn't interpret anything you wrote as being sarcastic. I was responding to Archbishop Tutu's comments primarily, not responding to anyone else in particular.

Intolerance on the part of Christians saddens me too, for it has nothing to do with what Jesus taught and commanded His followers to do. I worry about it particularly because it brings a bad name to Jesus Christ and His numerous followers who are good human beings. For that reason too inhuman self-righteousness and zeal which masquerades itself as morality or religion makes me quite indignant. I realise that sexuality in general and homosexuality in particular is a very sensitive issue for most. I had to deal with homosexuals directly in a professional setting, so it gave me an opportunity to understand them better as human beings and I got an insight into the additional suffering they had to go through because of their sexual orientation. In my opinion life is hard enough as it is, and homosexuals should not have to go through extra portions of suffering either due to discrimination or due to the misplaced zeal of well meaning people who think they are helping homosexuals by pressurising them to change their sexual orientation, because it is something they can't do as the medical profession has found out.

I think it is a good idea for homophobes to pray for their own healing, and leave it to God to deal with the occurance of homosexuality in nature, after all God creates them.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

http://www.aegis.com/conferences/iac/1991/WB2443.html

Soja,

***We follow some commands from the Old Testament and ignore the others because of the knowledge we have gained and the way our consciousness has developed over time, don't we? Isn't it right and proper for us to use the reasoning God has given us?***

Thank you for answering my question. I did not ask that in a sarcastic way. I suppose it was my hope that some would consider that question with the way they project their intolerance. And I do know that most Christians understand and apply your answer to most things. On the subject of homosexuality and atheism many tend to not be able to bend. It truly saddens me. As I had been taught that God is the only judge.

I found all of your recent posts to be informative and refreshing, considering what has been in this thread thus far and I count my posts in that as well.

Thank you again for your insight.

Addendum:

We follow some commands from the Old Testament and ignore the others because of the knowledge we have gained and the way our consciousness has developed over time, don't we? Isn't it right and proper for us to use the reasoning God has given us? Isn't the bottom line of all morality -do not hurt yourself, do not hurt anyone else? Wouldn't God expect us to remain open to the truth of science and the changed circumstances we live in, while at the same time following the bottom line - do not hurt yourself or another? And for us Christians, isn't it vitally important to remember that the Old Testament laws are no longer binding, but Jesus Christ, who emobodies the love of God is our model for compassion and love?

The verse in the book of Leviticus that condemns homosexuality, along with other instructions on how to live one's life:

Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable. (Leviticus 18:22)

If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:9,10)

Leviticus 19:15,18,19,27,32,33:

Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favouritism to the great, but judge your neighbour fairly.

Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbour as yourself.

Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

Rise in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere you God.

When an alien lives with you in your land, do not ill-treat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Exodus 35:2,3

For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.

Posted March 3, 2007 7:06 PM

FYI:

Bazemore PH, Wilson WH, Bigelow DA, on homosexuality:

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3359.htm

Dear Archbishop Tutu

Your support of homosexuals is touching, your arguments in their favour from the point of view of how Jesus would have behaved, convincing. Thank God our God is a living God who speaks through voices like yours. May your voice which has international hearing ring out loud and bring support to a community that has suffered long enough, either hiding in the closet for fear or being discriminated against when they ventured out.

I met the first lesbian couple (an American one) in the Ashram of Dom Bede Griffiths. One of them was a strikingly beautiful blond woman who had left her husband to be with a rather ordinary looking woman, and she was perfectly happy! It did not occur to me to think in terms of sin, but the relationship was a deep mystery to me, for I didn’t understand homosexuality at all. Fr Bede on his part accepted and loved everyone unconditionally. His argument for those who had problems with his unconditional acceptance was that he didn’t want to be accused by Christ, “When I came to you in the person of so and so you rejected me. What you did to the least of my brethren you did unto me.”

My next exposure to homosexuals was in 1990-1991, when I had dealings with HIV/AIDS patients. I had the privilege of seeing couples love each other in ways that would put many a heterosexual couples to shame. Since homosexual marriage was not allowed at the time, it was heart rending to hear that the families of the homosexual persons who wanted to have nothing to do with him during their life, would be the first ones to claim their property after death, and the one who loved them until death would go empty handed. It seemed terribly unfair. Although it can be said to be true of very few, nevertheless I was surprised to see that some of the homosexual men were so different in the way they thought and behaved. How could anyone hold them responsible for inclinations that were beyond their control?

Another deeply moving incident was the documentary of a man who was not fully aware of his homosexuality and had remained unhappily married for several years. He was a deeply committed Christian, loving parent and a wonderfully kind and generous citizen, who did his best to be a good husband. But he was thoroughly miserable and depressed in all the years of his marriage. He thought in terms of suicide several times. Then sometime in his fifties at a seminar he met a homosexual man and struck up a friendship. A whole new world opened up for him and his mind was clear and the depression vanished. He discovered that he was homosexual, and he was really in love for the first time in his life! His integrity forced him to divorce his wife and the whole thing was a terrible mess because the society was not yet ready to accept a homosexual man as the good citizen that he was. Legal marriage was not possible at the time, but the man, being a dedicated Christian wanted his commitment to his male partner to be blessed by a priest anyway. So they went to another country in which a priest was willing to conduct an unofficial ceremony for him. At the time of the documentary he was living happily ever after with his male partner.

Now living here in Sydney, Australia, I notice that homosexuality is totally accepted and nobody needs to stay in hiding.

Statistics show that approximately ten percent of the population is homosexual, and the figures haven’t changed very much since antiquity, although the tolerance might have varied at different times in history. After psychiatrists’ attempt to “cure” homosexuality even with extreme methods failed, homosexuality as a disease was removed from the psychiatry textbook in 1973. Some heterosexuals are unable to have children. Does that make them less of a human being and rob them of the right to live in a committed relationship if they chose?

As a lay liberal Catholic, I looked for mention of homosexuality in the Bible. Apart from the oft quoted Old Testament passages, which seem to refer to either heterosexuals who resort to homosexuality in a hedonistic fashion or unethical homosexual behaviours, there is really no mention of a normal homosexual relationship at all. Out of the Ten Commandments, two of them deal with adultery - not to commit adultery and not to covet the wife of a neighbour - but there is no mention of homosexuality at all. Jesus does not mention homosexuality either. Paul mentions homosexuality in Romans also in the context of heterosexual men and women giving up their natural sexual orientation to indulge in homosexual sex. Paul refers to homosexual offenders in Corinthians. But it is not clear whether the homosexual offender is a heterosexual giving up natural inclination to practise homosexuality or a promiscuous homosexual. In this thread however we are discussing the fate of homosexuals, the ten percent of humanity, who cannot help being homosexuals and cannot be “cured” of their sexual orientation. As a heterosexual believer I join you in your support for the right of homosexuals to a life of dignity and freedom to sexual happiness like the rest of us. How could anyone ever demand of a homosexual that they should not know the joy of sexual satisfaction, not experience the happiness of committed relationships as heterosexual do? What right does anyone have to expect homosexuals to live a life of celibacy suppressing their longing and biological need for sexual satisfaction?

For those who seem to lump normal homosexual relationship with addiction, bestiality, paedophilia, rape, murder, incest etc, I wish to point out the following: sin is about hurting oneself or another or failing to live up to one’s greatest potential as a human being. Addiction of any kind destroys the person and those around them. Bestiality does not seek the consent of the animal, and animals don’t seek out human beings to have sex with – and sex with an animal degrades a human being. Paedophilia and incest are not acts of love but crimes that destroy innocent children. Rape is a violation of the body of another human being without their consent causing physical and psychological damage to the victim. Murder… does one need to outline why murder is wrong? How could a sexual relationship between two adult consenting homosexuals be compared with any of the behaviours listed?

The ambiguous passages in Paul’s letters notwithstanding, I for one would not want to put myself in the shoes of God and play the judge, condemning the behaviour of homosexuals who do not hurt anyone with their expression of love. I would not want to be held to account by God for standing in the way of happiness of homosexuals who can do nothing about their sexual orientation. I wish them as much happiness as I wish anybody else. In my opinion any violation of their rights to experience as much joy and fulfilment in their life makes God weep for He created the homosexuals as much in His image and likeness as the heterosexuals.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

The last sentence should read..

They need not be feared, rejected or forced to be changed.

Truth

you said.... never said anything to offend anyone personally or attack them.

On the contrary, I have given hope and the reason for this hope.

I think your sincere when you say this, but I am sure you have to realize by just stating that homosexuality is a sin is offensive.

I think your sincere in wanting to offer hope. I also believe your sincerity is misplaced and worse yet dangerous.

This type of thinking in this area scares me. It scares me because its so extremely harmful and you can't/won't even attempt to consider that. In fact you claim that I am taking their hope away.

I would have to believe that all homosexuals just want to be accepted, respected, loved and share equal rights as the rest of us and by providing that to them is the way to give hope.

Shaming them into thinking they are wrong/bad/sinful for something they cannot control (no matter how much you, truth, want to believe that they can) and must turn to god for forgiveness, prayer and fasting in order to be something they are not is not only lunacy but is so very very dangerous and makes me even more fearful knowing that your not the only one out there that believes this and peddles it.

I would like to ask you how long you have been involved in this reparative therapy? The people you stated that you knew that have been converted, how long has it been since they've been converted? Do you have any research data to support the conversions last forever?

Before you ask, my research data are the people I know that are gay. Some I have grown up with. We are in our 50's they are still gay after all these years. 2 have died still being homosexual. I also know through my research data that they are fine upstanding citizens. They work, pay taxes, don't break laws, well maybe a traffic ticket here or there. Some are serious, some are humorous, some are smart, some not so smart. Some are giving, some are selfish. Some are nice, some are not so nice, sometimes. What I am trying to say is that they are just like you and me. They not be feared, rejected or forced to be changed.

Truth, if you want to learn about human nature, go to the library and read the research.

The consensus of the life sciences contradicts you. You do not understand that sex is a drive. You do not understand that homosexuality is natural.

Homosexuality is a biological phenomenon that has been observed in 1,500 species. There is no evidence that suggests that homosexuality leads to antisocial or sinful behavior.

That's the data. If you don't look at it then you are in denial.

As for religion, I have not attacked faith. I have said, however, that your position is making a mockery of the teachings of Jesus Christ.

If you are serious about Christ, go and read the Sermon of the Mount. When you are done, read it again. Read the Sermon of the Mount until you get the part about love.

Then go to the library and study biology. With the grace of God you might eventually understand what you are doing to the children.

Yockel & Mayan Elephant,

Please read my posts first, your posts do not address any of my points or give any kind of rebuttal.

I have already addressed the points in both of your posts. Like I said before strip away all the religious references and my argument is still sound.

Oh and Mayan Elephant - if hmsxlty continues there won't be any "other" generation.

Yockel it is very displeasurable to hear someone say that children are a lame excuse.

The only argument I hear from proponents of hmsxlty is to attack the faith - all I hear is "your faith", "your religion", "your God". This has nothing to do with religion, just like adultery has nothing to do with religion. Braking a promise is still bad in any culture or society. And acting against nature is likewise.

I never said anything to offend anyone personally or attack them.

On the contrary, I have given hope and the reason for this hope.

I reiterate again - Every single human is of more worth then any of us can fathom. When you look upon a human, you are looking at the greatest thing on this planet, unequaled, and un parralled. This is why I ask those who want to change and to know that this - hmsxlty - is wrong, that they have the POWER TO CHANGE PERMANENTLY.

My words don't offend anyone. They actually sow the seed in the hearts of others that they don't have to live a burdened life, full of remorse, and anxiety. That they can change anything about their (character). But in physical terms you are what you are - A human male or female - that is your nature and it dictates how you can behave and your nature is part of your character - you are an indivisible unit called HUMAN.

If you feel offended it is because you want to be offended.

Oh and bigotry is when someone is intolerant of someones elses opinion from his own.

It is not my opinion that I am talking about - I am talking about human nature - this is factual - and any one can observe and experience it for themselves.

Truth,

why do you abbreviate the word 'homosexual?'

the one thing you have right is that homosexuality need not be feared. though, you would do well to include yourself among those that do not fear homosexuality. free yourself pal.

as for overcoming homosexuality, i suppose some will make that choice, as is their right. though, i dont agree that it is your place or my place or the place of any municipality or government or church to overcome homosexuality. there is no evidence that jesus christ overcame it personally or within his community, so what in the name of judas grants you or anyone else the charge to do so, other than a huge dose of pride and bigotry?

homosexuals deserve the same rights as anyone else in our society. along with that, they deserve dignity and to know that there are more folks that want to afford them that dignity than folks that stand in judgment of them with hopes of tattooing a scarlet H on their foreheads.

truth, your words are actually quite refreshing in a peculiar way. its good to know the opposition and even better to know their position is groundless and based on mythology and faith rather than science, morals and compassion. knowing your position centers on the interpretation of an old book, translated many times, and compiled in less-informed times in our history gives me hope that a new generation that weighs facts and ethics over myths and tradition will make the world a better place for all people, including homosexuals.

It is unfortunate when "faith" masks fear and fear leads to aggression, especially when it is directed against vulnerable minorities. Christianity is no excuse for bullies.

Truth, people have pointed you to the consensus of psychiatrists and psychologists that homosexuality is not unhealthy. It's actually natural. We have observed homosexuality in some 1,500 species. In five hundred species, homosexuality has been closely studied. There is no evidence that homosexuality leads to anti-social (sinful) behavior.

Why don't you read the literature? It's not asked too much of a man who is a self-proclaimed Christian that he determine the facts before he passes judgment on others.

Christ reserved a special place in his heart for the persecuted. If Christ joined us today, he would embrace gay rights.

Christ did not ask us to run around in the world passing judgement on our neighbors. He asked us to love them.

And children are a lame excuse to justify your aggression against someone else's children, Truth. Somebody that you love is homosexual. You just don't know it yet because that loved one has reason to fear you.

Read the Sermon of the Mount until you get the part about love, Truth. God be with you.

nonibrahimic:

Strip all my posts of any religious references or ideas and you still have the same argument.

I open minded to any conversation. I can't find anyone to give a valid reason as to why hmsxlty isn't wrong.

This issue affects me profoundly because it deals with innocent people - children. I would rather defend innocent, pure, loving children then some adults who don't want to try to control themselves when they have every reason to do so.

You keep saying this is a matter of faith, it isn't, read my posts, take away the faith based references and you still have the same argument. Which no one addresses, because it can't be.

Hmslty is wrong, and anyone can change it! It is no more then thoughts and feelings that can be erradicated using the proper methods. No one needs to fear it, just overcome it.

Veritas & Truth:

I couldn't care two hoots about your beliefs. I don't subscribe to them. You can go and shout from the top of your roof (or even in the public square) about your faith and what your faith says about gays. That is your right. It is also my prerogative to yank your chain, (as the phrase goes.)

But when such beliefs of your co-believers (if not you) translate into actions that begin to curtail the rights of others (including gays) who either don't believe in, or are not of, your faith (and couldn't care less), it will be met with reaction in the very same public square. None of what these people are doing is infringing on your rights, perhaps only your sensibilities. But they don't have to care about it. So, paraphrasing it differently, mind your own beeswax, and ask your co-believers (or any believer of any belief system) to stop trying to legislate their/your/anybody's beliefs.

As for me, I will ignore your ad hominem attacks, since you don't know who I am.

It is also quite evident that a lot of people on this bboard are incapable of appreciating other frames of references in spirituality and philosophy, than just matters of blind faith, which I presume what this bboard was intended for. Perhaps I was too presumptuous. This is just another forum for proselytizing their faiths, some blatant, some subconscious.

I will sign off and go to "read" mode, if I ever come back.

But I must admit. It has been very amusing.

So long.

This is the hope I give to all hmsxl:

Don't you wish you didn't have those hmsxl thoughts? Don't you wish you didn't have to feel different than anyone else? Well you don't have to have any hmsxl thoughts or feelings. If you beleive and are determined to overcome this and live a life of happiness, self respect, and Joy, YOU CAN! Pray and Fast, and it will happen, I PROMISE YOU THIS. If you are a man you will begin to feel that natural attraction to a women, her feminity, her softness, her tenderness, your instinct will kick in and you mind will become magnetized again with that flow of romance and desire - your feelings of protection and of care will all be re-enlivened. If you are a women the same thing will happen - you will start to desire a man, you feel attracted to his masculinity, and desire to be protected and held by him, Your desire to nurture and have babies will rekindle where once there was only ashes.

You can regain your Confidence in life and be free. Come unto Christ. If you do not believe in Him. Then start by Fasting and praying or meditating. It is OK to cry and let out your frustrations as to why is this happening to me. With every tear you will heal, He will listen to you and strengthen you with a desire to be your true self.

I Testify to you that God lives. His son Jesus Christ is the savior and redeemer of this world. One human is worth more then this earth and every creature ever created on it. The family unit is the basic unit of society and will endure together as that of a mother and father - a male and female - enjoined in matrimony.

Taking someone's life is punishable by death in our society. The power to bring life into this world is just as sensitive and by God just as serious. These are powers that are entrusted to us to bring children into this world and give them a happy life. When someone plays with the power to take life - or - to give life, they are playing with the most intense fire. Let us be ware of how we use these powers - we will be held accountable.

Robin,
I guess in your rational - your genes and your actual physical parts are at odds?

Your genes to use your terms "select" you to be male or female. Is this not true? If you are a male then it is your nature to behave as one.

When I was talking about handicapps that also included people who are so violent that the "authorities" have excused them with the same rationale as "it is in their genes". Same as pedophiles, lyers, etc. No matter. There are infinite excuses for doing wrong - anything can be blamed on "my genes made me do it". The responsibility falls squarely on each one of us to take control of ourselves. Handicaps also include dyslexia and autism which both can be improved and comepletely overcome with the proper diet and program. So take control. To those who cannot there is help in Jesus Christ.

You speak of me giving false hope. But I at least give hope. You on the other hand condemn men to self destructive behavior, and reduce them to no more then beasts. You eclipse their hope and dreams, you condemn them.

Yes I give hope to all who will hear and read. Who will open their eyes. YOU DO NOT NEED TO LET ANYONE HOLD YOU DOWN. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE WITH GOD. YOU CAN CHANGE ANYTHING ABOUT YOURSELF.

Whether it be a hmsxl, or a pedophile, or someone addicted to pornogrophy, or someone who has the propensity for violence and physical harm - MY DECLARATION and TESTIMONY is that who are of such great worth and potential that it is possible for you to do great and wonderful things - it all starts with the desire to be the masters of ourselves.

Marco Polo:
I never knew you knew Leonordo. I knew you spoke to him and heard from his lips that he was hmsxl. You probably read this from some gy author. Probably not the best place to get your info - else everyone who was great would turn out to be hmsxl.

I will give you a secret a key as to how anyone can overcome hmsxl behavior, pedophile attraction, rage, depression, self loathing, lying, fear, anything you want :

Jesus said : Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. (Matthew 17:21)

This is not only tied to the Christian religion - every single religion recommends this.

I know that if you sincerely try this you can overcome anything in your life. For that person who is scared of the thoughts and feelings that enter into them regarding hmsxlty or anything else - I PROMISE YOUE, if you but just try this you can regain your confidence and obtain the life you have always wanted - to be what you truly are!

Robin says:
"not gonna happen. You can....well you should be able to get the picture. When's the last time you saw a miricle of this stature? I would bet money on it being never. "

You infer that you are omniscient that you know the future, and that you know all things that occurring on this earth, and yet you don't beleive in God.

Let me tell you something, MIRACLES happen. Just like in ancient times. Except people don't run to the washington post to get them published. MIRACLES are for those who believe and trust in God.

Even you saw a miracle it doesn't mean you will trust in God. Seeing something is not trusting in it. Trusting requires a resolve of the heart not just the engagement of a sense such as sight.

I invite you and all people everywhere to just pray to God and see for yourself how you feel in your heart. He is our Father, He created us, and Sent Jesus Christ to redeem and exalt us.

Come unto me all who are weary and burdened, I shall give you rest (Matt: 11:28).

Truth:
You used a quote by Leonardo to rtionalize your own deluded argumen against homosexuality, yet did you know that Leonardo was gay himself? You're stabbing yourself in the leg my friend.

Truth

By your own admission.......*Oh and by the way - some people do have deficiencies in their genes - retards, handicapps, etc; That is why we rehabilitate them and care for them. We usually don't let them adopt kids - unless the can prove to care for them with love and affection and raise them up properly. So if you claim that hmsxl deficiency is related to a gene - it is just a handicapp, and many handicapps with the proper attitude it can be overcome!*

You can help a retarded person be more self sufficient but you cannot take away his/her retardation. You can help a handicapped person with various prostheis, guide dogs, books in braille etc, but you cannot give them back their limbs,eye sight etc.

You can help a homosexual understand and accept their different sexuality if they are having a problem about it, but you cannot make them straight.

We usually don't let anyone adopt children unless they prove they can love and take care of them properly. To bad that can't happen with some people who decide to procreate. IMO

Thats neither here nor there. The point is you can sit all day and night for many days, months, years and pray to your god to give an amputee back his legs, not gonna happen. Pray all day and night to give back the blind person their sight, not gonna happen. You can....well you should be able to get the picture. When's the last time you saw a miricle of this stature? I would bet money on it being never. You have read about them in that bible (by the way was written by men) of yours but how is it that God has not provided modern man any proof of his existence when in the bible he had no problem doing this over and over again?

Your reparative therapy only propetuates more confusion, self hatred and doesn't work in general. Those that think in your manner are only causing more harm than help. You offer false hope nothing more nothing less.

Your look in your pants theory doesn't wash either. That only explains gender and not what your genes/hormones necessarily elect you to be.

"nonibrahimic:
The argument that what is true for beasts does not apply to thinking cognitive animals does not hold any water at all, if you don't subscribe to ibrahimic religions."

No this is the funniest one of all. You probably failed science since kindergarten.

The only congitive animal, as you put it, is the Human. I don't know why use the plural form.

I guess you cannot clearly see that man is more heroic and compassionate then animals. The the law of humanity isn't - only the strongest will survie. No we humans build goverment, schools, hospitals, machines, all for the desire to improve and care for one another.

nonibrahimic I guess you think your an animal. Most people that act like one in our society get locked up, we confine them behind bars.

I hope you decide to be part of humanity by rising above the thought that you are comparable to an animal. You are of much more worth.

NONIBRAHIMIC & Concerned The Christian Now Liberated,

How ignorant and foolish people can be!!!

What you call the relationship between hmsxlty and a gene is purely conjectural (supposition,fancy) - meaning it is purely based on belief. It is the fancy of perverse men trying to justify their evils even using science!
I can conject anything I want - infact I can conject right now that you ........ I will refrain.

I have greater proof. Proof you and everyone can see. Proof no one in this blog or any scientist or anyone in the world can refute. YOUR GENDER IS FOR REAL. CHECK YOUR PANTS - BEHOLD YOUR GENITAL - IT IS YOUR NATURE! Can you deny this? This is SCIENCE, a particular branch called biology!

Can't you see how foolish people have become. Why do trust in mortal men to tell you what is right. Do you not know and understand that any scientist can be bought for the price of money - to write any report I wish him to write for the purpose of justifying my position. How do think these people are funded?

How many countless theories are never proven and discarded. Why? Because theories are speculations not based on facts or descriptions of reality. Let alone conjectures which are pure beliefs. You believe more in men, more in research you have never done for yourself, nor in any evidence or tests you have experienced or seen, you believe but mere words, without evidence. Who is the sheep?

Get into Reality. You deny what you are and incline your ears to finite man for something so critical.

You have all the proof in this world, you can see for yourself - you have your own bodies that stand as testimony against you!

The women ovulates for a very specific purpose. A man ejaculates for a very specific purpose. This is our nature.

The romance between a man and women is part of the nature of who we are, for the specific purpose of begetting children and raising them.

Please let go of what vexes you and holds you chained - to your own carnal desires.

Oh and by the way - some people do have deficiencies in their genes - retards, handicapps, etc; That is why we rehabilitate them and care for them. We usually don't let them adopt kids - unless the can prove to care for them with love and affection and raise them up properly. So if you claim that hmsxl deficiency is related to a gene - it is just a handicapp, and many handicapps with the proper attitude it can be overcome!

You will never have a greater or lesser dominion than that over yourself. The height of a man's success is gauged by his self-mastery; the depth of his failure by his self-abandonment. And this law is the expansion of eternal justice. -Leonardo Da Vinci

Discussion on this board has gone in many different directions.

Some, who are predominantly proponents of "gay culture" have emphasized parabolicism in their arguments and have prasied Tutu for that.

Question is not "if gay culture is right or wrong". Question is "if gay culture is/was endorsed by Jesus".

Why proponents of "gay culture" need endorsement from Jesus?

Bible clearly communicates opinion and views of Jesus about wicked and adultrous.

Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, ‘Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you.’ He answered, ‘a wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.’ (Matt 12:38–41)

If it is known and observed through out history that Humans have always used eye to watch and ears to hear, and if it is common experience still in these days. Then if someone comes and claim that such and such people used to watch with ears and hear with eyes then burden of proof is on him.

Archbishop Tutu,
Thank you for your sense and compassion in putting this issue in the correct perspective!

Veritas vos Liberabit:

For the latest studies on biology and homosexuality, go to the Medline search engine, http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/gw/Cmd and enter gene AND homosexuality.

NONIBRAHIMIC said,

"It is quite evident that there is some biological basis for homosexuality" (NONIBRAHIMIC)

Please tell me what proof you have? You believe this by faith. There is no proof. I hate sin because it destroys people's lives. I have no problem with saying that. I am not controlled by the politically correct machine like you are. Political Correctness is your god. I pray you would know the true God who gives life through His Son Jesus Christ.

I am a Christian.

I find that in this discussion, the reasoned, calm responses are coming from the open minded people who support human rights (including rights for people of all sexual orientations), whether the respondent is Christian or not.

However, I find that many who proclaim themselves a Christian are saying things that go against all of the teachings of Jesus to love one another and to take care of any who are oppressed.

You may call yourself a Christian all you want, but if your actions do not reflect the loving teachings of Jesus, you will have to excuse me for wondering if you understand what you claim to believe.

I can not judge your sincerity, but I can look at how you treat others and see how that matches the examples Jesus gave us through His life.

Alan, your insult is old and tired. Not that I'm complaining...it's easier to fight a weak opponent. However, this "Freudian slip" line of attack is one I have no heard from Christians yet - Freudian is, after all, I fairly long word, much too long for more Christians to be comfortable with. If the "slip" my friend made is to be attributed to anything, it is most likely the result of his editing his comment for content...that is the most likely cause, and the second most likely is that Christians/Moslems/Hindus/Jews or some other adherents have taught him unhappiness. I'll leave it at that, though, because I dislike sticking up for others when they are perfectly capable of sticking up for themselves. Such teamwork does nothing for the strength of the mind engaged in the political arena.

I have a feeling that, were I to meat Mr. Tutu, that I would feel extremely ambivalent towards him; he is clearly open-minded enough that he must be intelligent, compassionate enough that he must be confident, and well educated as he is so correct in his thinking about homosexuals. However, to combine his religion with a progressive, liberal movement is an affront to anyone who ever honestly and intelligently sought to bring liberty to their brothers and sisters. Combining religion with gay rights might be the most expedient way to justice, but it is not the most constructive; it could only inject new life into a contraption that should have fallen to disuse long ago. Even if religion were a fellow activist alongside atheism in the fight against homophobia, there are many other injustices that religion can perpetrate through the hands of faithful itinerants.

The biology connection to homosexuality cannot be overlooked with respect to how religion judges homosexuality.

See Medline for an update. http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/gw/Cmd