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Recently I came upon a column that I had set aside by Sally Quinn in the AZ Republic "Immoral options are only choices left in Iraq" telling of her experience as a young child years ago of returning to the US from Korea on a Army medevac plane with wounded/dying military personel. It tore me up...especially considering what is going on now in Iraq in which the "Bush gang" fails to even mention the thousands of mutilated men and women who have yet to be counted in the mounting 3000 dead GIs.
During the Viet Nam era I was assigned to Walter Reed Hospital (WRAIR)in experimental surgery and needed to periodically visit the Forest Glen center near Walter Reed that "housed" Nam wounded with severe chronic war injuries, eg devastating wounds to the head, amputees etc. I visited with many of these people...those who were capable of communicating that is....and became aware myself of the untold horrors of war. I can sympathize with the experiences of Ms. Quinn!

Daniel Dennett is simply awesome.

Well said Elaine!

A few days ago, someone I don't know, Ernest Reinhart, posted a comment about the importance of recognizing how others perceive your words. That has great significance not only for the issue of the word "bright" (I'm comfortable with it myself), but for the constant reference to the gay model for seeking greater acceptance and open participation in society. We don't have to refer to them to prove that we're not prejudiced, but we don't have to take on the burden of others' prejudice against them either.
There is still discomfort and much worse among the general public when it comes to sexual orientation. For atheists to keep pointing out that gay people are now more accepted than they used to be and that is a model for atheists is the most misbegotten rhetorical device imaginable. We need to remain focused and disciplined to keep our cause from being confused with other issues.

Wow. This has been a long and interesting thread. It's good to see debate on these issues. Isn't the Internet wonderful!

I am hopeful that the widely held connotation for the term "Bright" will become positive and useful over time. After reading this thread, I have some doubts but I certainly applaud the concept and have long recognized it's necessity.

I do not believe in God. While I am certainly willing to call myself an atheist, defining my outlook by stating what I am not is woefully incomplete. As defined at the site (www.the-brights.net ) it makes sense to try and grow a word that simply means one who pursues natural rather than super-natural explanations for the universe around us.

It is predictable that many who prefer supernatural explanations for life, the universe and everything would see the promotion of the term "Bright" as a vitriolic attack on their intelligence. I also hear atheists and agnostics rejecting the term for the same reason. Whether it's "Bright" or some other word (Dennett invites suggestions), there does need to be some acceptable word that holders of a naturalistic view can rally around. We need a word with deeper meaning than a simple "I am not this" or "I am not that". It most certainly won't happen over night but it does need to happen. Regardless of the word, getting freethinkers to promote political concepts with anything resembling one voice is going to be like herding cats. However, the simple premise of promoting the freedom not to believe should be an easy sell with freethinkers far and wide.

I can understand how believers might feel that the term "Bright" is a sleight, but I am not losing sleep over the talk of vitriol. Atheists do not enter debates in churches, mosques and synagogues about what Christians, Muslims and Jews should call themselves. Besides, if a group of people wish to call themselves anything that means something besides "not you" what business is it of yours. Is the pious, moral superiority of believers so great they feel deserving of a voice in this matter? Also, construing the word "Bright" as a sleight to you is nothing compared to the disgusting premise of Christianity and other religions which hold that simply because I do not believe, I am deserving of eternal punishment. How vitriolic is that?

While reading " Words that Work " by Dr. Frank Luntz, I came across this paragraph that we can all learn from.
" You can have the best message in the world, but the person on the receiving end will always understand it through the prism of his or her own emotions, perceptions, prejudices and existing beliefs. It's not enough to be correct or reasonable or even brillant. The key to successful communication is to take the imaginative leap of stuffing yourself into your listeners shoes to know what they are thinking and feeling in the deepest recesses of their mind and heart. How that person perceives what you say is more real at least in a practical sense than how you perceive yourself."

I can reccommend a book that seems (I'm only in the third chapter) to show that the more theology you know, the more appealing atheism is. It's called _A History of God, The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam_, by Karen Armstrong.

Armstrong knows a good bit about theology. She was a nun for some years, and spent all her spare time at the convent studying theology. When she realized she wasn't getting any closer to God, she gave up the religious life and let her belief "slip quietly away."

She continued to study the history of religion, however, made several TV shows about it, and has now written this book. It's an honest history of monotheism (I'm enough of a history buff and student of religion myself to know she's not pulling the wool over my eyes), and it clearly demonstrates (so far) that religious beliefs are man made.

I reccommend it to believers and non-believers.

"our lack of "theological knowledge" - an oxymoron if there ever was one"

Not to be a nit-picker, or anything, but the deterioration of the English language really bugs me. An oxymoron is a phrase that seems to contradict itself, but actually has a point, such as "jumbo shrimp," or "cold fire."

"Theological knowledge" is not an oxymoron. It's a contradiction.

I have enough faith in atheism and atheists to believe there MUST be some intelligent ones out there SOMEWHERE...
-------------------
Thats it is it? Nothing left? Well goodbye then, it's been truly excruciating.

I have enough faith in atheism and atheists to believe there MUST be some intelligent ones out there SOMEWHERE...

Lord knows the law of averages would strongly suggest so at this point.

I can't believe you repeat the absurd notion that just because you "feel" one thing is more likely than another, you can speculate about "pure statistical probabilities". A statistical probability is established through observation and testing (numbers!) and is not something you simply assert!?
--------------------------
Come along, this isn't hard:-) If a body of irrational people talk disingenous crap, and I replace 50% of them with honest rational people, the total disingenous crap generated from the group will fall. I don't need to know specifics about the total volume of the group, their tendency to talk crap, or the relative increase in honest and rationality introduced by the replacements, to know that this is absolutely and unequivocally true.

I notice you avoid the rapture question. There are only two reasons for this.

1) You know we'll all have a good laugh if you do subscribe to such an disturbed idea.
2) You actually beleive it, but are justifiably embarrased.

Either way anything other than a no leaves your credibility, well what few tatters are left, further diminished.

Mr. A. give us a good laugh tell us about the rapture and jesus, you've really got nothing else to say. Why continue to deny your lord?:-) Our eternal salvation rests in your hands. Guess we are screwed then ... if your success to date is anything to go by:-)

Sorry, but it's prejudice unless it's established on the basis of facts and evidence under some kind of fair and objective standard, with right of appeal. Full stop.

I can't believe you repeat the absurd notion that just because you "feel" one thing is more likely than another, you can speculate about "pure statistical probabilities". A statistical probability is established through observation and testing (numbers!) and is not something you simply assert!?

I value the constitutional prohibition against religious tests for public office. I'd have to have a pretty serious reason to advocate for abrogating it. And I would have to have — you know, that evidence stuff — solid evidence of a clear and present danger. The attitude expressed above is called prejudice.
-----------------------
Not at all. You are confusing prejudice with a rational judgement of a persons competence. Prejudice is a baseless discrimination, the kind of discrimination I mean is not baseless at all, and is of course the kind of fact based discrimination we all engage in daily. Or do you make no judgements whatever about the relative skills, competencies and abilities of those you interact with? Remind me never to hire you ... for anything:-)

For example, what if your religious belief led you to the conclusion that eating the livers of small children was vital to their salvation, and yours? Would that be OK? An extreme example, sure, but really not terribly far removed from the book of revelations.

Religious beliefs, held with sufficient conviction are a danger to the public. Just ask those that died on 9/11. If you think that Jesus is returning and you are going to be raptured, you are operating at very low level of mental health, and are frankly dangerous. The more powerful your position, the greater the danger. This is really very simple, pure statistical probabilities.

That you are having such trouble grasping this simple concept has me wondering about YOUR mental health:-) Do you REALLY want people that believe outrageous things, absent any evidence whatever (we at least got agreement on that right?), running the worlds most powerful nation? Maybe you do:-)

Do YOU think Jesus is returning and that you are going to be raptured? If not why not?

Oh, there is a logical statement.
Maybe Anon has the ability after all.

he says
Brian's belief that
Genocide advocates are a danger to others

shows that Brian does not believe in the separation of church and state.

Could you repeat that?

We are supposed to take Logic criticism from someone who doesn't even know his own name?

Where, oh where, are the True Atheists, the Mighty Reason-Warriors as of Old?

"You seem to be confused about what statistics ARE. We don't need specific numbers to know that fewer drunk drivers would result in fewer road deaths it's that kind of statistical thing."

Yowza! You didn't really say that!? That's just too fat a target. As penance for previous sins I'm holding my fire — but I expect to be given credit for it!

"If you beleive in the literal return of Jesus Christ, the rapture and the holy genocide of unbeleivers, AND are in a position of power, you are a danger to yourself and others."

I value the constitutional prohibition against religious tests for public office. I'd have to have a pretty serious reason to advocate for abrogating it. And I would have to have — you know, that evidence stuff — solid evidence of a clear and present danger. The attitude expressed above is called prejudice.

But of course, that can't be, because you're all about reason, empiricism, facts, and evidence, you atheist you!

Ache-a-holics Anonymous's Problem

Brian

I think you hit on Mr A's problem.

It was so obvious, so right in front of our noses, that we didn't see it.

We assumed he was not brilliant, as he had represented himself to be, but just of regular intelligence.

The clearly correct conclusion is that he has
Fatal Logical Defiency Syndrome.

It's not that he doesn't *want* to make a salient and logical response to your points.
It is that he is not *capable* of doing so.

it's not his heart, lord, it's his mind.

maybe its all the Iranian beer I've been feeding him (or her).

If it is a statistical thing, where are the statistics? You make no conclusions without data, right? Show us the data!

Or is the truth that you guys are no more fact-based than anybody else?
-----------------------
You seem to be confused about what statistics ARE. We don't need specific numbers to know that fewer drunk drivers would result in fewer road deaths it's that kind of statistical thing.

It's really quite hard to miss the point here, but you are doing an amazing job:-) Let me spell it out, while narrowing your options for disengenous equivocation.

If you beleive in the literal return of Jesus Christ, the rapture and the holy genocide of unbeleivers, AND are in a position of power, you are a danger to yourself and others. Or do you disagree?

Love means never having to say you're sorry. Brian knows I am naughty, and in fact he likes it... He likes it a lot.

If I missed the point, what rational verifiable point were you making, exactly?

"In fact, there is some evidence that GWB already sees himself as doing the bidding of a 'higher' father."

Fine — so produce the evidence, evidence guy. If he simply meant he pondered whether he was doing the right thing, there is nothing whatsoever sinister about that, and if you are threatened by it you're delusional. If he said God phoned in a target list with coordinates, I will be happy to acknowledge that you were right.

"I am disturbed by his obvious faith and proximity to the launch codes for thousands of nuclear weapons."

And your evidence is what? You reach conclusions based solely on evidence, right — not prejudice, hatred, peer pressure or a febrile imagination, right? What is the evidence?

"By reducing faith in such apocalyptic myths, generally, the overall risk is reduced. It's a statistical thing."

If it is a statistical thing, where are the statistics? You make no conclusions without data, right? Show us the data!

Or is the truth that you guys are no more fact-based than anybody else?

Again an attitude borne out of faith. 'Serving one's GOD'. Hinduism avoids this sort of direct incitement, but makes up for it with racism / caste

When people in power invoke GOD, then we may expect irrational decisions.

PAkistan and India have nuclear weapons because they are a muslim and hindu states - simple.

Based on your repeated self-description, I assume you now will present us with clear and convincing empirical evidence supporting your assertion of a causal relationship between opinions on God-existence and nuclear proliferation.
---------------------------
Erm ... no.
---------------------------
Will you demonstrate conclusively that a secular Iran would eschew nukes, or show how it would define its strategic interests differently in any way?
---------------------------
Erm .... also no.
---------------------------
And will you produce the evidence to prove your provocative claim that "millenial dispensationlists" have "their finger on the US nuclear trigger"?
---------------------------
Erm ..... no again I'm afraid.

You rather missed the point of my post entirely.

If society is permated by people with a persistent sense of doom, and apocalyptic visions of the end, the odds are clearer higher that one of them may be in a position of power, and that they may mistake themselves for the hand of god and pull the trigger on his behalf.

In fact, there is some evidence that GWB already sees himself as doing the bidding of a "higher" father. I'm not sure what his position on the "end times" is, but I am disturbed by his obvious faith and proximity to the launch codes for thousands of nuclear weapons.

By reducing faith in such apocalyptic myths, generally, the overall risk is reduced. It's a statistical thing:-)

Anonymous

Nice, qualified, wishy-washy apology
(better than nothing though)

BUT
once again

it comes with

an affirmation of your
totally undemonstrated
superior intelligence,

I asked in good faith but followed up in bad faith. After a barely perceptible twinge of conscience — and after contemplating the manifold absurdities of this discussion for about a nanosecond and a half — I just lost it. Mea culpa.

Bremer smuggled it across the border.

There are perks to being the big Poobah.

(by "there" I meant the region).

BTW, are you a man or a woman?
I'm bi, so it doesn't really matter much.

Also
my "Good Faith" comment in the last post referred to your suckering Brian with your uncharacteristically sweetly phrased question about whether he had theological training,
and when he responded
implying that he was a fool.

Bad Faith. Entrapment. You should be ashamed.

Shame on myself for not warning Brian: your guile was obvious from the start.

You know, all them "eye" countries sound alike: I-rakk, I-rann, I-rabia...

Whatever. But WHERE is Brian's supposed reasoning concerning God's existence? I missed it entirely (maybe it was just too subtle).

[P.S. Bremer...Iranian?? (I assume you're trying to work while carrying on this flirtation, so I understand the distraction.)]

To Mr. Anonymous

It buys us, first and foremost,
that

Contrary to your claims over and over again on this post,

1. You have NO knowledge from the academic discipline of Theology that casts doubt on Brian's reasoning concerning God's existence.

LOGICAL CONCLUSION: a human who had any shame would stop making statements like "do you know what you guys sound like, given that you don't have a doctorate in theology."

It also leads to the inescapable conclusion that your repeated claims to superior knowledge and reasoning have NO SUBSTANCE. They are, in fact, substance abuse.

2. It also buys us
Confirmation of the fact that
• you repeatedly avoid directly facing substantive questions.
• you repoetedly throw in Red Herrings to divert attention from your tortured "reasoning."

In short, it buys us the privilage of knowing that every comment you make is not to be trusted, most likely not made in good faith**, and primarlily meant to prop up your inflated view of your own wisdom.

It makes me feel better to have that conclusively demonstrated.

BTW, the beers tonight are going to be Iranian beer that Paul Bremer brought back from his stint there.

If it will advance the conversation, I am more than happy to stipulate as follows:

[a] James and Brian speak infallibly on all matters pertaining to God-existence.

[b] God-existence is wholly irrelevant to the validity of any and all assertions made by Anonymous.

What does that buy us?

Did Brian (or any of you) engage in reasoning? Did I miss something? Dang! I would have loved to see that.

Based on your repeated self-description, I assume you now will present us with clear and convincing empirical evidence supporting your assertion of a causal relationship between opinions on God-existence and nuclear proliferation.

Will you demonstrate conclusively that a secular Iran would eschew nukes, or show how it would define its strategic interests differently in any way?

Will you explain the God-existence connection behind India, Pakistan and DPRK going nuclear, and Libya and the former Iraqi regime trying to?

And will you produce the evidence to prove your provocative claim that "millenial dispensationlists" have "their finger on the US nuclear trigger"? [NB: Moonbat web sites do not constitute "evidence".]

Or do you cling desperately to such moonbat beliefs because they give you meaning, identity, a sense of belonging — and of superiority?

The Anonymously Artful Dodger

Not only will anonymous not tell us his name,
he won't answer the most straightforward question.

How bout that for ground rules:
when asked a question, don't pretend you were asked a different question.

I didn't ask you whether it matters whether God exists (though Brian illustrated quite vividly why it does, and showed the poverty of your spiritual imagination - i.e. you can't imagine iraqi[s and iranians could be hurt by Bush's god-sanctioned war).

I asked you to demonstrate with ONE SPECIFIC POINT
where our lack of "theological knowledge" - an oxymoron if there ever was one - leads us to reason fallaciously regarding the existence of god and the effects of such belief.

You apparently can not. Do you know who Paul Tillich was?

So far, no comment that you have made illustrates that you have any special theological knowledge, let alone knowledge that casts doubt on Brian's reasoning.

Only fundamentalists and their opposite number (those with a compulsive need to identify as atheists) care whether or not God exists. So God does not exist. Big deal.
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There is some merit to your comment, but is not the whole story. Atheists have recently begun to care passionatley about the existence/non existence of god, because those with belief in god have become increasingly irrational and dangerous.

If the thought of millenial dispensationlists, waiting with bated breath to be raptured, all the while with their finger on the US nuclear trigger does not worry you, then I submit your survival instinct isn't working.

If you remain unmoved by the possibility of tens of thousands of Iranians being incinerated in a US first strike, because their theocratic politicians insist on building a nuclear weapon, then I submit your sense of empathy needs an overhaul.

The existence or non-existence of god is suddenly important (as opposed to simply a fascinating topic for discussion) because lives are at stake.

May I respectfully propose the following policy for this forum.

Anyone demanding that another participant demonstrate the existence of a third entity shall first submit clear, convincing and unimpeachable proof of [a] the first party's own existence; and [b] existence of the second party (i.e., the participant of whom said demand is made).

If either the party of the first part or of the second part cannot be shown to exist, then such demand shall be deemed utterly null and void, inasmuch as any effort to fulfill it would be unproductive and a waste of valuable time in a (paradoxically) pointless universe.

Only fundamentalists and their opposite number (those with a compulsive need to identify as atheists) care whether or not God exists. So God does not exist. Big deal.

God never claimed to exist. God says, "I am." God is being. If anything is, God is. If not, not. Whatever.

Existence is overrated.