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Mr Dickey,

I agree with Jim Morin, I liked your piece, the most humane amongst the respondents. How did the WaPo manage to find only one kind man to write about the Latin Mass? Most of the other posts are full of calumny, especially that of the (so-called) Catholic priest! Yet the liturgy of the ancients should not be discarded lightly.

These verses from St Jerome always delight me:

Bonum certatem certavi.
Cursum consumavi.
Fidem servavi.

(Timothy2 4:6) "I have found the good fight. I have finished the course. I have kept faith."

Best wished to you, Mr Dickey.

Thanks for most honest and insightful of the four panelists on this question. I'm glad that you are able to see the forest through the trees.
As a young Catholic, born decades after Vatican II, I enjoy the Latin Mass from a time to time, as a celebration of tradition and an amazing ritual of song. I enjoy hearing Mass the way that my family has since the reign of Clovis.

Poetry? Devil just loves it. His favorite is rap, Gregorian chant that, like chewing gum on the bed post over night loses it's flavor in English.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul The God of the father of Moses is Devil. Calling Devil God does not make Devil God but does make Him happy and doing it in poetry gives Him an even bigger thrill.

The Latin liturgy is a smoke screen.

Lit-urgy: Lit for literature and urgy for the urgency of the situation. Thinking about the ONLY source of God's word and his authority, the Holy Bible being a proved Lit Hoax makes the pope's head hurt,, and it's not helping your neighborhood minister any either.

It's just a matter of time. Religion is the great divider of people. Latin liturgy is just more division.

When I stopped attending mass, the Latin mass was all there was, and it had beauty and mystery. Especially high mass. Most especially the midnight mass on Easter. Years later, I caught a vernacular mass. It was so mundane that people were actually chatting in the isles of the church before the service. You would NEVER have seen that in the old days. If you wanted to chat, you bloody well chatted outside.

No wonder Catholics have quit caring. They've lost their reverence.

Spencer,

Anyone who would say "fruitage" when he means "fruit" should leave linguistic discussions alone.

Even blank verse has a captivating imagery to it ! In Forty years the Catholic elite have failed to invest the liturgy with artistic backbone. Now they expect that the old wineskin will be the panacea. Apparently the thirst of the community is irrelevant.

There is more to poetry then words, there is emotion.

Emotion, symbols, sounds hit the subconscious...words do not. It is the sound of the flow of the words that bring emotion...it is the trappings of ritual that brings you into that sacred space.

Wiccans have their sacred writings, one is the Charge of the Goddess...a bit of it goes:

"For mine is the ecstasy of the spirit, and mine also is joy on earth; for my law is love unto all beings."
That sings in my spirit.

But if I heard-" I love you, be happy." Yawn.

Music, dance, art, chant, all contain the elements that opens your subconscious to that other place. Those who take that out are loseing what connects the human spirit to the divine. They are useing reason...and Godhood is not found in reason.

terra

I used to go to Latin masses in Vienna and find them lovely. I would probably go to mass every once in awhile if it were offered in Latin. Mass is much better when it is performance.

here is what islam thinks of poets
SARIYYAH OF `UMAYR IBN `ADI
From Ibn Sa`d's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, translated by S. Moinul Haq, volume 2, pages 30-31.

SARIYYAH OF `UMAYR IBN `ADI
Then (occurred) the sariyyah of `Umayr ibn `Adi Ibn Kharashah al-Khatmi against `Asma' Bint Marwan, of Banu Umayyah Ibn Zayd, when five nights had remained from the month of Ramadan, in the beginning of the nineteenth month from the hijrah of the apostle of Allah. `Asma' was the wife of Yazid Ibn Zayd Ibn Hisn al-Khatmi. She used to revile Islam, offend the prophet and instigate the (people) against him. She composed verses. Umayr Ibn Adi came to her in the night and entered her house. Her children were sleeping around her. There was one whom she was suckling. He thrust his sword in her chest till it pierced up to her back. Then he offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-Medina. The apostle of Allah said to him: "Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?" He said: "Yes. Is there something more for me to do?" He [Muhammad] said: "No. Two goats will butt together about her. This was the word that was first heard from the apostle of Allah. The apostle of Allah called him `Umayr, "basir" (the seeing).

dont you love poetry under islam?

Sometimes we seem to get so caught up in the ritual of things that we completely lose sight of God. Some people get so caught up studying the bible that they lose sight of Who it should be pointing to. If you like the mass in latin then fine but when someone is speaking to me and since I am not a linguist I would rather hear it in the language that I understand and who knows maybe eventually it might sink in. God either created all of us or God didn't, we are either all His children or none of us are, if His Plan is not for all of His children to be with Him in the Kingdom then it isn't much of a Plan. If you say you believe in God then maybe you should believe in GOD. Why do some people that say they believe in God make Him so small? Do any of you have an answer because the God that I met sure isn't the worthless piece of garbage that so many people that know His Name seem to think that He is. There is absolutely no way that I could be thankful to a being that some people seem to think that God is. Take care. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Latin is to Catholicism as Hebrew is to Judaism. The idea of a sacred language is an appealing one to me. A sacred language gives a constant freshness to what is being said. Given that the Catholic mass remains largely the same from day to day, I can't imagine learning a little Latin would tax anyone's brain. Anyway, the Latin mass is an acquired taste. You can appreciate it over time, but it's certainly not necessary. Unfortunately, many Tridentine mass supporters are also right-wingers who believe Vatican II destroyed the Catholic Church and only by abolishing Vatican II can the Church rise again. However, I certainly don't think liberal Catholics should cede the beauty of the Latin mass to these idiots.

Jesus himself said, "Happy are those hearing the Word of God and keeping it." The apostle Paul later wrote, "If the trumpet sounds an indistinct call, who will get ready for the battle?" Christianity should be built on real-life actions, not poetry.

As for the 23rd Psalm, David's point is important. How many people have recited those word by rote and yet still see God as a mystery? The rhythm of the King James Version may be enchanting, but is instructive? Who is "The LORD," anyway? If His name was in the original Hebrew, then translators have done both God and the readers a cruel disservice by removing that name from their translations.

The beauty of Christianity should be in the fruitage that it produces in the lives of people, rather than in the so-called beauty of a dead language.

When I asked by my high school Latin teacher how the Romans sounded when they spoke the language, he said he didn't know because he wasn't there. And he was REALLY old.

There is no doubt that the Bible in the original Hebrew has a certain meaning we will never catch even in the King James translation of the 23rd Psalm. It goes beyond the poetry, into the nuances of contextual meaning not only of each word, but that word's juxtaposition with another word in the sentence, and those phrases in the sentences with the other sentences--and so on.

Dickey's point about the Q'uran is excellent that the meaning is "lost" in the translation--oh I wonder where that cliche comes from?

In fact, the original Ten Comandments were encapsulated in single words--ten words--signifying the entire morality of mankind. Such concepts as "no-kill," or "no-lie," were able to be illicited in single Hebrew words--thoughts--beyond the imagination of the mortal mind: more like the Poetry to which Dickey refers.

Too many people see musical language as something formal and old-fashioned. Now that they are going back to speaking in Latin, is there any hope they'll stop singing those awful modern hymns and give us back our Brahms and Vaughn Williams? The old stuff was easier for the people to sing -- so they sang.

Language always has a musical element to it. Today we see it in hip-hop and rap. I think poetry has been misunderstood as people in the past and the here and now recognize music in words. Turn the word poetry into something else and I see a future for verse.

Language always has a musical element to it. Today we see it in hip-hop and rap. I think poetry has been misunderstood as people in the past and the here and now recognize music in words. Turn the word poetry into something else and I see a future for verse.

Language always has a musical element to it. Today we see it in hip-hop and rap. I think poetry has been misunderstood as people in the past and the here and now recognize music in words. Turn the word poetry into something else and I see a future for verse.

Language always has a musical element to it. Today we see it in hip-hop and rap. I think poetry has been misunderstood as people in the past and the here and now recognize music in words. Turn the word poetry into something else and I see a future for verse.

The alien sound of the Latin language could be a good thing. At its best, it can emphasize the sacred -- as in separate from daily life. Whatever arguments I might have with the vatican, I feel that the Latin Mass will be a positive and unifying option.