Thanks for the repartee - it's very interesting to dialogue with someone on the opposite side of the fence! For the record, I am by nature a skeptic and it took many years for me to come to realize how this Truth fit all the questions I had. I fully recognize that I may be wrong, but all investigation I have done leads me to the conclusion that there is a God, and that Christianity is the most accurate understanding available of His nature.
In response to your comments -
Maurie: If god is as great as you say he is, why must we do things that bring him glory. If he is really such an omnipotent, omniscient being, he doesn't need our fealty to bring him glory. We usually characterize people who require us to espouse their greatness as megalomaniacs. Megalomaniacs generally require an unceasing show of loyalty, which infers that they are not all-powerful, but are, in fact, rather insecure."
God doesn't "need" our fealty for His glory, but He does deserve it. It is what we were created for, and we are the only creatures on Earth with the cognitive ability to recognize the possibility of the Supernatural because He wants us to recognize who He is. I understand your comparison to megalomania, but that is a pejorative term usually placed on people who perpetrate evil on others, passively or agressively, through their hunger for power. God has no co-dependent type of craving for our love, but as a Father He wants us to love Him and show Him the respect He deserves. He has no need for power, because he contains it all. The evil that exists on Earth is caused by man, not by God.
Maurie: "So, you are saying if a serial killer who rapes and murders, then completely repents before god and accepts Christ as his savior, may go to heaven (perhaps a detour to purgatory), but I won't. What kind of a god is that? What about innocent children who die before even being exposed to Christianity? They all are refused entry into heaven? I guess I'll be joining Mark Twain and most of the other great thinkers and moralists in warmer climes for eternity."
What kind of a God is that? A God who only asks that you acknowledge who He is and love Him, accepting what He has revealed. Those who have never had the opportunity to hear the Truth are not accountable to it - but if we hear it, if it is accessible and understandable to us and we turn away, we are openly rejecting Him. Children under the age of accountability are not subject to hell. However, we are all accountable to God for everything we have done on earth, rapists, murderers, thieves, liars, and so on will have to answer for what they have done, whether they repented and accepted Christ or not. I have many things to answer for - things done prior to my acceptance and things after. I would never claim to be able to say that someone is "ineligible" to go to heaven unless that person specifically rejects the Gospel - and then I would only know because they told me. Their hearts are unknown to me and who knows if someone changes his mind? So, I have no comment on Mark Twain or other greats, except that if they're not there, they will be missed.
Maurie: "I would like to note that God does not sound very moral to me. In fact, if you read the bible, some of the things god does to unbelievers and believers alike is absolutely beyond the pale in terms of what we currently consider acceptable behavior."
I agree that there are some really difficult stories in the Bible. I don't have answers to all of them, but I do know that the underlying theme throughout the Judeo-Christian Bible is love. God has said repeatedly that He loves us and wants to bless us all, provided we do what He asks. What he asks is so small, and so doable, and so intuitive, I don't know why so many fight it.
Matthew 22: 36-39: 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Maurie: "I do have one final question for you. We live in a country with a secular government, where all people are considered equal before the law. No one presumes to be treated differently depending on what they believe, what religion they practice (in my case no religion at all), what their ethnic background, or what gender they are. How do you treat those in every day life? Do you make such distinctions. Do you treat believers and unbelievers differently?"
As far as I can be certain, I do not treat anyone differently. My husband is not a believer. Most of my family are not Christian. I interact on a daily basis with many different types of people, of different race, gender, creed, sexual preference, religion, etc., and I can't imagine any reason why I would treat any of these differently than I treat any Christians I know. We are all in the same boat, existing in a difficult world, trying as hard as we can to be happy and fulfilled.
I have a question for you: Have you experienced bias based on your atheism? If so, can you tell me the circumstances?
Julie - For the record: I do not believe that morality is dependent on Christ - I believe morality is hard wired into us by our Creator.......
There is evidence that morality is semi-hardwired into our genes (see Hauser, M. D. 2006. Moral minds: how nature designed our universal sense of right and wrong. ECCO press).
Julia - I do believe that without Christ God will not allow you into Heaven, regardless of your moral example; what is the point of your morality to Him if it does not bring Him glory?
If god is as great as you say he is, why must we do things that bring him glory. If he is really such an omnipotent, omniscient being, he doesn't need our fealty to bring him glory. We usually characterize people who require us to espouse their greatness as megalomaniacs. Megalomaniacs generally require an unceasing show of loyalty, which infers that they are not all-powerful, but are, in fact, rather insecure.
So, you are saying if a serial killer who rapes and murders, then completely repents before god and accepts Christ as his savior, may go to heaven (perhaps a detour to purgatory), but I won't. What kind of a god is that? What about innocent children who die before even being exposed to Christianity? They all are refused entry into heaven? I guess I'll be joining Mark Twain and most of the other great thinkers and moralists in warmer climes for eternity.
I would like to note that God does not sound very moral to me. In fact, if you read the bible, some of the things god does to unbelievers and believers alike is absolutely beyond the pale in terms of what we currently consider acceptable behavior.
I do have one final question for you. We live in a country with a secular government, where all people are considered equal before the law. No one presumes to be treated differently depending on what they believe, what religion they practice (in my case no religion at all), what their ethnic background, or what gender they are. How do you treat those in every day life? Do you make such distinctions. Do you treat believers and unbelievers differently?
A few days later, but I just read your post and wanted to address it, and I really hope you check back! I did read your original comments, by the way, thank you.
For the record: I do not believe that morality is dependent on Christ - I believe morality is hard wired into us by our Creator, but that in order to enjoy the fullness of life and to experience eternity with God, you must accept Christ and His teachings. You may be a person in your atheism who is a better example of Christian morality than I am, but what separates us is my acceptance of God and His teaching. The difference is not our behaviors, it is our perspective. That does not excuse bad behavior by Christians, either - we are all accountable to God, whether we believe in Him or not!
I do believe that without Christ God will not allow you into Heaven, regardless of your moral example; what is the point of your morality to Him if it does not bring Him glory? The greatest humanitarian acts may be done by a non-believer, and of course God does love it when anyone treats their brother or sister with kindness, but unless we acknowledge His existence and His supremity, we steal the true source of the charity from Him. If you do these things and claim "I am a good person", you are saying that you did this act on your own, without acknowledging the source of your morality, and that you do not recognize His great work in creating you and enabling you to do that act of charity.
I am ashamed by some believers who discriminate against those who do not have Christ for any reason - our purpose as Christians is only to share the love of God through Jesus with others, not to judge those who do not yet have this Truth.
I hope that clarifies it - and there were a couple others who responded to my post, let me address that now briefly:
Bubba - to clarify, the Trinity consists of three persons in one entity; God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. All are equal, all are God, all have always been, and none were Created. John 1: 1-3: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." John 1:14: "14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
It's a tricky concept but after all, it's God's, not man's, definition, and I believe that the Creator has a better understanding of it than I do, but I do accept it. The Mormon doctrine on this is significantly different and therefore un-Biblical. Noted on the Seminary school credit - that's a relief! I spent years feeling envious and now I can let it go.
RUW, Regarding my data on divorce, etc. - I confess I did not consult an outside source (as you could see, I did not cite one), but I did do a comparison study during high school between my personal experience and two friends' experience at similar schools in Southern California, and that is where I obtained my information.
Sorry - Ignore the second post. I didn't think my first (rather large post) went through - so I split it up. Hence, the second of the two statistics posts is merely a subset of the first.
"Mormonism continues to grow at a spectacular rate indicating that many people outside of the faith are drawn to its ideas. This steady growth rate indicates that not only does Mormonism nourish its adherents but that the ideas implicit in the religion appeal to a great many Americans and others throughout the world."
A source of church growth statistics from a Mormon-friendly site:
David G. Stewart, Jr., MD {church member & former missionary}
"The rapid growth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a frequent and recurring theme in the secular media.
...
A closer examination of growth and retention data demonstrates that LDS growth trends have been widely overstated. Annual LDS growth has progressively declined from over 5 percent in the late 1980s to less than 3 percent from 2000 to 2005.[11] Since 1990, LDS missionaries have been challenged to double the number of baptisms, but instead the number of baptisms per missionary has halved. During this same period, other international missionary-oriented faiths have reported accelerating growth, including the Seventh-Day Adventists, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, and Evangelical (5.6 percent annual growth)[12] and Pentecostal churches (7.3 percent annual growth). For 2004, 241,239 LDS convert baptisms were reported, the lowest number of converts since 1987. The number of convert baptisms increased to 272,845 in 2006, but both missionary productivity and the total number of baptisms remained well below the levels of the early 1990s. Even more cause for concern is the fact that little of the growth that occurs is real: while nearly 80 percent of LDS convert baptisms occur outside of the United States, barely one in four international converts becomes an active or participating member of the Church. Natural LDS growth has also fallen as the LDS birth rate has progressively declined. LDS church membership has continued to increase, but the rate of growth has slowed considerably."
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"Mormonism continues to grow at a spectacular rate indicating that many people outside of the faith are drawn to its ideas. This steady growth rate indicates that not only does Mormonism nourish its adherents but that the ideas implicit in the religion appeal to a great many Americans and others throughout the world."
Two sources on church growth from Mormon-friendly sites:
David G. Stewart, Jr., MD {church member & former missionary}
"The rapid growth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a frequent and recurring theme in the secular media.
...
A closer examination of growth and retention data demonstrates that LDS growth trends have been widely overstated. Annual LDS growth has progressively declined from over 5 percent in the late 1980s to less than 3 percent from 2000 to 2005.[11] Since 1990, LDS missionaries have been challenged to double the number of baptisms, but instead the number of baptisms per missionary has halved. During this same period, other international missionary-oriented faiths have reported accelerating growth, including the Seventh-Day Adventists, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, and Evangelical (5.6 percent annual growth)[12] and Pentecostal churches (7.3 percent annual growth). For 2004, 241,239 LDS convert baptisms were reported, the lowest number of converts since 1987. The number of convert baptisms increased to 272,845 in 2006, but both missionary productivity and the total number of baptisms remained well below the levels of the early 1990s. Even more cause for concern is the fact that little of the growth that occurs is real: while nearly 80 percent of LDS convert baptisms occur outside of the United States, barely one in four international converts becomes an active or participating member of the Church. Natural LDS growth has also fallen as the LDS birth rate has progressively declined. LDS church membership has continued to increase, but the rate of growth has slowed considerably."
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I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/mormon). I would like to post some of my thoughts in hopes of generating some conversation that would be meaningful and constructive.
First of all I would like to say that I would love to answer any question posted on here that is written out of a sincere desire to learn or to be informed. Questions that are posed with the intention to create controversy by those who oppose the teachings of the LDS Church will not promote understanding. Let us all seek to accentuate the positive, with kindness and respect. If you are sincerely wondering what we believe and what we do as Mormons, ask us and we will be more than happy to answer.
For other Mormons who are reading this and might wonder how to respond to some of the comments in this forum, may I quote the words of the modern prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, "Let us not be proud or arrogant. Let us be humbly grateful. And let us, each one, resolve within himself or herself that we will add to the lustre of this magnificent work of the Almighty, that it may shine across the earth as a beacon of strength and goodness for all the world to look upon."
As for myself, I was born into an LDS family and was privileged to learn the teachings of Christ from my parents early in my life, but I have learned for myself through personal study and prayer that Christ is the Savoir of the world. Through demonstrating our faith in Christ by following his teachings we can live with God again.
For those of other faiths, I would invite you to take what you have learned, what you have obtained in terms of light and knowledge and bring it with you and see if we cannot add to it, expound upon it and make it brighter. Let us put a cease to the contention and bickering and seek to find common grounds and build from there.
I repeat that I would gladly welcome any question that is posted with a sincere desire to learn, or in an effort to sincerely clarify misunderstanding.
You can scroll up and see the link at my response to RANSOM, et al.
You can google Dr. "Harry Theriault." I know that he has had a "MELCHIZEDIK PEACE BLESSING" saying something to the effect of "Annulling and Or Cancelling Previous WAR BLESSING(s) via their Angel Character GABRIEL,
Note: Melchizedik is Above Angel Michael, Gabrial et al;
And Melchizedik is equal in rank to ABRAHAM, And Melchizedik is Both Priest & King as angel and Blessed the JOKTAN- Race of lost scattered Mahdi People.
And The ALLK Five Major Religions of today are now rendered ABSOLETE! a/k/a Pre=Apocalyptarian believers who are Against Faith-Exchanging for "Healing Of The Nations & Usher in Global Peace under a ONE-HOLY-TRUE BIBLE a/k/a O.U.R.S.! One Universal Religion System for ALL in "Genuine Equality" of Faith in Truth etc. via the U.N. making IT mandatory for that purpose of CRUXOLOGICALLY validating the Thought HEURISTIC points of ALL 5 Major Scriptures & Sub Scriptures as a Synthesis of ridding the curses and hence curing the Evil not 21st thinking dogma & Beyond.
I Need to Run & catch-up with my self.. SHolom w/Shiloh is here Now!
Remember It is the Message & not the Prophet that counts NOW!
P.S. There are alot of Court Cases that involve his CONS a/k/a Church of The New Song. But I do not belong nor have I ever belonged to such church or some say, cult [it is not by Shiloh, but others behind his back do make it a cult thus defying Shiloh's authentic message.
I was Ordained, as a Revelation Minister and given the title "CRUXOLOGIST" by "The Light/Photon Bringer" a.k.a "The Bishop" of Tellus [old name for Space-Ship Momma Poppa Earth] a/k/ "Shiloh" and other Eclatarion names.
My job, as an Eclatarion, not eclatarian, is to Uphold & Make Honorable the faith, and spread the word before the creation of the O.U.R.s a/k/a "ECLAT-i-Book", and WE HUMATES are known as Eclat-i-On's, Not Eclati-Offs,.
ECLAT= A brilliance Bursting Forth {Flash 1st followed by Bang 2nd, that order and not other way to contrary thinking today, in order to appreciate the PROPHECY coming out of the BARD's Holyer then Thou's Mouth!
Shiloh's favovorite words are "G-D Consents But Only For a TIME" and also; "To Listen or hear your Eclat inside, one must Meditate.
And to Talk or Speak to the "Fearlesss & Unjealous" Lord G-D ECLAT & "i" in IT that is in ALL, one must pray.
"IT" or "ITSELF" is Eclat is a Source & is a G-d & more than Manmade G-ds of Lore & their non god created Epochs. More More...
And best blessing of all, is that Melchizedik, came via PRISON to "Transfinity Mountain" to our Fore-Bearer of the vision & the Message from the Melchizedik Peace Blessing, resulting in a MIRACLE that is NOW OUR(S) DISPENSATION that will Unite {by US Joktan Eberu's] and wrestle the Old thinking World away from the ancient "PELEG" people who are wrongly fighting over a name for a religion that they still do not understand because there are To many Confusing flavors of G.O.D. or by whatever name, is about!
On another backwards Monday let me ask, "In a America, do we have a right to Believe ?". Some may argue that if the belief in question is Christianity then by all means, yes.
So, the virtues taught by JC would have to be explified through the particular sect of Christianity right ? I mean truth and charity top the list to me. And yet, through Christianity are we not taught, that all people are God's children, be circumsised in spirit type of stuff.
And so to me our society makes Christianity the standard to judge all religions. And yet, the Constitution of America goes beyond religion to a spiritual idealism in my book. And founding fathers words went beyond practices of the day. In otherwords a bunch of slave owners said that all men are created equal.
A constant theme is evidenced in American history paralleling mormoms which is isolationism. Quaker, Shakers and Onieda sects come to mind. Mennonite cloisters are still much in evidence today. These examples expound on a fact that certain sects of Christianity in America avoided the mainstream. And for the most part society afforded to them, "The Right to Believe".
Interesting to note the FBI investigates Cults. There are now specific profiling tools to identify cults which may or maynot pose a threat to themselves or the rest of society.
I can think of at least one Christian Cult aligning itself with one particular sect of Christianity. I would think that it would be unfair to name the sect because this Christian Cult is not an example of Christianity or the particular sect in my view.
Let me be direct. One person or one family acting out on its own motives does not make a religious practice God ordained. Charasmatic movements usually follow a particular charasmatic leader. The question needs to be asked in civil tones, is this a righteous man or a Jimmy Jones ?
My opinion is that if there is a "Right to Believe" in America based on the spirituality of the Constitution then that right is still evolving. That's because in practice the right is still focused on Christianity. Some branches of worship may slide if they pass the Christianity test.
My argument is that the Constitution is far more lenient in affording a right to believe to all people. Does it not afford the right not to believe as well ? My bigotry is based on history, I have contempt for Church/State unions.
Well it was a good idea to have a discussion, but a few idiots ruined it for everyone. I remember a statement made by Mark Twain...."It's better for a man to hold his piece and to be thought a fool, than to open his mouth and remove all doubt."
I want to know what is wrong with a religion that obeys the law, has good standards, loves to serve and help people, and much more other good things? What is the matter with that? I am proud to be a Mormon.
Please, Atheist(s) have "Rights", like to "Choose" to pick from different "Ice-cream flavors of Religion(s). Note the "Plurality" of an Atheist(s), Gnostic, Agnostic etc, dilemma of having to choose from them, if any.
But I say, Atheists are potential believers, And believe IT (your g-d Eclati) or Not!
Now on Homosexuality [koochi Poochi a/k/a Sex acts and Thoughts? here.
Homosapience have rights too, and they have or want to have a choice on "Proselytizing their homo-ness" in the open so to speaketh.
Homoness comes in two ways. [I am not Gay in this Life Form].
1) Is Biological & Hormonal Imbalance(s), that makes one all Gay.[Physically & Mental]. from what I've observed through out.
2) Is Mental & not due Hormonal imbalance. NOTE:
This type of acting or behaving, especially in PUBLIC (Sex & Religion should always be kept PRIVATE & not just closets) is the part of behavior that is "Homosexual" because of being exposed from a young age and or via friends and or in family, or via forced entry and hence psychological underpinnings.
Att: Brother(s) Sister(s) JOHN, et al ; Again;
We Eclati-On(s), know that LIFE IS A MIRACLE & ZERO SIN BEING BORN IN ITSELF as STUFF. Via Magma & now beyond!
Wherefore: Sex, is beautiful and is how we got here! (Tautology never the less here).
Therefore this is Genuine LOVE & Miracle at ITs best, for us to rejoice in, and to never be or think one is or should ever be Guilty [Shame ,sin] of coming , in style & elegantly via OURS own Heuristic but NAKED Photo finite essence Carbon Atomic chemical flesh & blood,
via TRANSFINITY (your reality as Temperature in Grid locomotion) and projectile d out of the MAGMA and Heading INTO THE “Plasma” an now appearing on this Space-Ship momma poppa Earth here right John, et al?
Important: Sex is Miracle ITSELF (G-d Eclati in and of you that proves NATURE is LOVE. Sex is beautiful. Sex is a/k/a "Pleasure."
And yes, sex is POWER! Yet sex and their very acts & thoughts(?) can”Transgress” (Knowing or not) another's natural or artificial "Preferences."
Example: I'm In N.Y.City, on the train and I see a guy, his three kids & his wife, I guess, wearing a complete “Burka” (Islamic Mask w/little holes). This was Transgressing my Secular and Eclati-on beliefs, Cosmic Faith & my Heuristics as my unique Religion in my Transfinity.
A/k/a Knowingly testing Mr & Mrs. Joe PUBLIC(s) “Secular Law Minded” And the religious Laws followers minded public, as Open culture, not just traditions. .
But Then I depart and enter inside a Shuttle Bus. Woe and behold, what do I see?, I see two guys (30's) holding hands, and then when the bus comes to a certain spot, One of the hand holders suddenly lets go and tongue kisses and leaves like a Man. Not Girl. Note: The Transgression here is that the Little kids have to watch that, and this act or Public behavior is BAD REALITY TV or is contrary to the Laws of their own Nature (Hormonal or Psychological or Both) for the Gay People, of not just in America, but also the world too.
This is not liked by most folks in Public. Hence enjoy your life in Photons but please keep your Sexual-Pleasures Private! Homo or not!
We now know that AID's exists. And We now know that, even though Chimps & Bonobos are our close genetic counter parts of OUR(S) [Me Me “i” ] offspring, that they to HAVE or CARRY the HIVs virus precursors of this "Deadly Deceit Syndrome" that has killed and recked havoc on so may many innocent people (?).
I believe AIDS has killed more people than those whom died World Wide via car accidents alone. Not by secular dictators from some other Epoch.
And HIV Statistics, does not bode well for the Homosexual folks or their interrelated groups and or couples having certain inalienable rights that needs 1st. Amend Protections..
Remember: The biggest SIN that ANY- Eclati-On can commit, is Unjustifiable-HOMICIDE, not Homoside!
We live in America and OURS U.S.A. CONSTISTUTION, Like the Universe & the Laws of Nature are Its (G-d Eclat the creator) “CLAUSES, that life is, and should always be recognized, that as Humates having a Natural “HUMANITY-DOCTRINE: that ALL must know and be Aware of their very unique own Photon frequency Channel of LOVE in the Holy Cosmic Heart Beat of OURS TIME here now! WE ARE BORN IN MIRACLE and Zero-Sin, Right?
Therefore: ALL sexual Acts must be kept conscience in respect to ones Public Obligation and to ones Private Obligations as respect for ALL and not selfishness as displayed by some.. This is the Crux of the Homosexual Gay Rights movements and beefs.
I believe that Army saying, “Do Not ask .... “ and hence Do Not tell nor Volunteer so, is best policy, regardless in what State one is in or what Nation,. So best policy is Enjoy Sex, do not abuse IT, and keep your Hormones & Psychological hang ups to one self and your own kinds.
We Exist because “The Great Eclati “ is about Temperature (ITSELF a/k/a lord G-d Almighty & beyond) doing IT's (G-d a/k/a ITSELF) ) thing via the Vibrationals & the Plasmaticals and thus Eclati & OUR ECLATi-On's “Never Die” because WE and G-d are ETERNITY(s) AVOIDING LONLINESS via All things Animate & via All thing Inanimate, known to US or Unknown & Beyond! Hence: Life Is Beautiful, IMAGINE Peace, Love, Rock and Roll?!
Like there is LIFE IN PHOTON/light , then . “Shiloh” The Light/Photon Bringer is OURS SHOLOM NOW!
By: Jacob Jozevz Ordained RM of CRUXOLOGY et al.
Ya Ya. : + )/ umm Enjoy Life, as is Mons., et al !
To Christopher Dicki the writer: THANK YOU for writing something uplifting. So much written by people in the recent forums regarding the LDS faith has been so mean spirited towards their fellow Americans. Thank you Again.
To David Waite:
I enjoyed your comments. I grew up in Utah, but for the past 15 have lived other places. I understand your point of view. I think that the Church is perceived much different in places where we are minorities. I could be wrong... Anyway, I just wanted to point out and remember that JFK didn't implement his religious beliefs in is marriage. Just food for thought.
I have to love the arrogance of atheists, considering more people have been murdered in the name of atheism and egalitarianism than any other idea, over 100 million people.
Homosexuals are the epitome of arrogance, expecting everyone to accept their sexual choices and their feelings. What gives you the right to transgress upon my religious freedom? Homosexuality is a disorder, and considering all of the studies that were used to declassify homosexuality as mental illnesses were fraudulent and scientifically useless, homosexuality is what it always was. Sodomy is not a civil right.
Mormonism will slowly fade from society as will contemporary Christianity, Judaism and Islam because of the obvious problems with the founders of these religions especially their angelic/satanic hallucinations and related prophecies. "Pretty and ugly wingie thingies" simply do/did not exist. Associating the Singularity with these mythical assistants and opponents mocks the concept of God the Almighty.
The Good Word was articulated by the ancients using reasoning and common sense. These Words of Wisdom were simply repeated with each major race and religion. Unfortunately the Words were attibuted to embellished men in most cases as a means of profiteering as noted by the contemporary billions of dollars owned and controlled by the Mormon, Christian, Jewish and Moslem religions. It is time to get our money back!!!!!
The Articles of Faith of the LDS Church:
1)We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2)We believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression.
13)We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men...
I don't have time to list them all; go to LDS.org and read them. I am a member of the LDS church who has spent most of my life in the San Francisco Bay Area. I have also lived in Texas and Utah. I've been all over the country, and visited many other countries. I have close friends of all religions and preferences. I have never experienced a fraction of the intolorance and hatred that is strewn about this blog, whether it be Mormon to non-Mormon or vice versa. In defense to these awful blog contributions, I must say that every LDS church member I know on a personal level (hundreds, and from all sorts of places) is a NORMAL, DECENT, TOLORANT, LOVING, CHARITABLE, HUMBLE, UPSTANDING CITIZEN. If any of you have had bad experiences with members of the LDS church, I am deeply sorry. People are at the very least highly imperfect and often very short-sighted and immature. Forgive them and move on. Can't we all just get along?
Forgive me, those of you who are perusing this "blog" seriously, for adding yet one more posting in this short period of time. I have been reviewing others in the Washington Post series and feel compelled to offer a comment relevant to nearly all threads I've examined.
I see more than a few (at least reasoned and rational) postings that attempt to attack the LDS church on the basis of "tolerance". Let us examine that word. The word "tolerance" means to accept deviation from the ideal, or required specification. Therefore, "intolerance" is the opposite. It seems from my readings that among those of man-made faith (or none at all) it is believed that ALL ideas should be accepted among ALL people in the name of "tolerance". (Aside: if you have no belief in God, you might examine the "objectivist" philosoply of Ayn Rand who possessed no faith, but DID possess an exceptional mind that would have been revolted at the concept of "tolerance".)
To you advocates of "Tolerance", I pose a challenge: will you wager your life by driving on a suspension bridge built from steel from a manufacturer that was "tolerant" of excess carbon in the the steel? Built by a contractor who was "tolerant" of the construction practices of unskilled labor? Designed by an engineer who was "tolerant" of a 10% deviation in the wind-load calculations (I offer the unwitting example of the Tacoma Narrows bridge in the 40s)? No? Are you, also, then, so intolerant?
If any of you reading this have a functioning mind at all, you must realize that there really does exist the issue of ABSOLUTE value. God's truths are absolute. But, "no", you say, religion is different from physical law (and you, amazingly, cannot see that they are one and the same).
Then I offer those same "tolerant" readers this challenge: tell yourself you "don't believe in gravity" and then (please) go jump off a high place and tell yourself that because you do not believe, you will suffer no penalty for your lack of belief.
If any person living can refute a word of this, please contact Harvard, or Stanford, or MIT or any institute of learning and let them know of your marvelous ability to transcend natural law by your refusal to "believe". I, personally, feel only wonder at what your first thoughts will be when you, like all of us, pass beyond this mortal veil and discover--alas! all too late--that your thoughtless following of thoughtless purveyors of thoughtlessness have led you to piss away this most precious life of which you will by then have realized the value.
None of you need bother to attempt to refute this monolog: absolute truth cannot be refuted and absolutism cannot be abrogated by refusal to acknowledge its existence.
The next thing of which I will be accused is being "arrogant", because of the obvious surety with which I speak. Surety, yes. God alone offers surety. I boast only of God's goodness. I rejoice only in that Absolute Standard that God has given me. Nothing of which any of us are possesed belongs to us and to believe so really IS "arrogance". Except stupidity, which is the "gift" of Satan. Choose, then, in whose debt you wish to be.
Dear God! but these "blogs" have revealed to me a level of human decadence I, in all my cynicism, had heretofore not realized. How unutterably depressing this forum has proven. And yet, knowing God, I can endure. I offer that challenge to all of you subjectivist, "tolerant" readers.
I suppose we'd better add the previous posting to the list of transportees. This "blog" is supposed to be a serious discussion between (reasonably) rational humans on issues of importance. There is no place here for the irrational ramblings of lunatics. Please find the proper place where you sadly demented creatures can beat yourselves into (if possible) even greater insensibility without burdening those of us already struggling in a world polluted by the mere existence of such unreason. I understand Beta Zar is offering financial incentives for immigrants: apply at www.godsaveus.com.
It is now 7 plus years after the millenium, time for all of the crazies to crawl back into their caves for another thousand years; GOD is not coming, again!
Also time for the Christians to give it up. Celebrating the torture and death of their GOD for the terrible calamity of being created defective by the "Just" GOD defective and then requiring "Human" sacifice to GOD for taht same GOD's mistake is bizarre and just plain dumb.
The so-called Bible is such a ridiculus accumulation of distortions, lies, ignorance, and endless contradictions; to use this "book" as a basis of spiritual work is a hopeless mess.
Those who treat their chosen words from this book as literal are especially crazy! Have you noted that the most common phrase for these people is "And that means" ... something different than what it saya we guess. They claim a respect for life in a pwtre dish, yet support an immoral war by an immoral President. They support killing thousands by preventing effective prevention because they think all sperm squirted inot a condrum is murder or worse. Their blind support of crusades and zionist movements have killed thousands more. Their ignorance is an ugly thing and their hypocracy is evil; we must move on from these pathetic people.
Is it possible to ship the creature "Jacob Jazevz" to Frogstar B, where he would be happier and benefit 6 billion humans immensely? The man quite obviously has a brain that leaks; is filled with hate, has fewer than 3 functioning neurons and obviously thinks than random characters typed constitute "communication". The man is a disease and the mere existence of such a creature demonstrates quite palpably that all Christ spoke of in these last days is utterly true. Please, you revolting excresence, go back to New York (or whatever cesspool you crawled from) and let those of us who attempt to honestly communicate do so without your really mindless babblings. Have you sought professional help for your existence?
It all sounded nice until you got to Nephi at 21, saying, "AMEN."
Please Brethren, Never say "Amon or Amen".
You are still thanking a he nor a she 1/2Man & 1/2Beast. This is a Relic saying, from the Egyptian days of biblical ancient Lores.
Note: And Barb et al, the Same goes for Symbolic Cannabilism & Vampireism. so When one Drinks or Swallows Sybolically, the BLOOD & FLESH, smbolizing, of Mr. Jesus, and not G-d, is a great discourse of heuristc in Eclati Cosmic Feelings Faith.
BEHOLD: "Shiloh" The Light Bringer is upon US and have not long ago commeth to OURS!
<? + )' Enjoy Photons.
This is real Warmth and genuine LOVE to exist in Miracla and never Sin is a Beautifull Reality to uphold, make honorable and cherish unto end of Space-Ship Earths Poof-Time comes in 7 Billion years.
Praise SOURCE ONE HOLY NO MAN ECLATi lord G-d Almighty. Halaluya. I got the Gooosy bumpy's & Photon vibrations up and down my Me Me in me and via ALL. Can You Feel the Lord ECLATi in you and ALL?
Peter,
Just an add on that you might also enjoy...
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 25:23)
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
Peter
"Forgiveness of sins: I stated that forgiveness of sins is something we cannot earn, do not deserve and is something granted to us through the grace of God. "
I agree and site the following:
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 2:8)
8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 31:21)
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
"If Paul isn't enough for you, Jesus tells the parable of the workers and the wages. It's only one of several parables that affirm the grace and love of God is what saves us. The workers who arrive at the last hour receive the same wages as those who worked all day, at the discretion of the employer. "
This may give you some added understanding:
Dallin H. Oaks
As we seek to determine whether we have become true Latter-day Saints—inwardly as well as outwardly—it soon becomes apparent that the critical element is progress, not longevity. The question is not how much time we have logged, but how far we have progressed toward perfection. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell has said, ‘Life is not lineal, but experiential, not chronological, but developmental.’ 1 The issue is not what we have done but what we have become. And what we have become is the result of more than our actions. It is also the result of our attitudes, our motives, and our desires. Each of these is an ingredient of the pure heart.
Some persons achieve great progress toward perfection with just a few of life's experiences. Others seem to pass through the same experiences again and again and yet remain relatively unchanged by them. The contrast is suggestive of the difference between the status of one person with four years' experience and another person with one year's experience repeated twenty times. The question is not longevity but growth. Growth is not measured by a clock or an odometer but by what has happened in the heart.
These truths provide an insight into the parable of the laborers in the vineyard …When the day was over, the householder instructed his steward to pay every man the same wage. Those that were hired at the eleventh hour received the same as those who had worked all day. When the all-day workers murmured, complaining that those who had worked but one hour were paid the same as those who had ‘borne the burden and heat of the day’ (Matthew 20:12), the house-holder reminded them that all had been paid the agreed amount and therefore none had any cause for complaint.
This parable teaches us that the rewards we will receive in the judgment will not be computed according to the duration of our service. Exaltation, the ultimate reward of the Father, is available to all who qualify.2 Eternal life is "the greatest of all the gifts of God. None can receive more than this.
By reason of their willingness and their loyalty to their master, by the end of the day the laborers hired in the eleventh hour had become as much—had qualified as completely—as those who had served the entire period. The master's rewards were not given for the time served or for any other external measure. His rewards were for the ultimate and comprehensive internal measure—what the workers had become within themselves as a result of their service.
1 (Ensign, December 1986, p. 23)
2 (See Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966] 1:561.)
(Pure In Heart, Bookcraft, p. 140)
(Dallin H. Oaks is a current apostle of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and a former State Supreme Court Judge)
OH JESUS MARIA PLEEZE WHATS GOING ON. HERE WE HAVE A CULT THAT DENEGRATES WOMEN, GAYS AND LESBIANS TO 2ND CLASS STATUS AND THEY THINK THEIR CHURCH IS MAINSTREAM! GET A LIFE!
SOME OF THOSE DUDES THAT RUN THE CHURCH ARE RIPE TO JOIN BARNUM AND BAILEY CIRCUS THEY HAVE OPENINGS FOR HOMOPHOBIC CLOWNS RIGHT NOW! NO WONDER MEMBERS HAVE TO DONATE 10 % OF THEIR INCUM TO THE CHURCH, REMEMBER JOSEPH SMITH AND BRIGHAM YOUNG HAD WELL OVER 100 WIVES IN BETWEEN THEM! OH JESUS IT SHOW US ONCE MORE THAT RELIGION IS THE PROBLEM AND NOT THE ANSWER!
"For out of Prison [or poverty] He Commeth to Rein..., ISIAH: 53 (all) and; ECCL: 4:14, et seq.
I only respect my "Elders" when IT(your g-d Eclati) comes to "Shiloh" (The Photon Bringer not so much light) the one HUMATE, today who has had a DISSPENSATION of the "MELCHIZEDIK-PEACE-BLESSING" that will usher Humate-Kind a World PEACE & healing of Nations & more.
And, hence; "The WAR BLESSING is now ANNULED according to "Shiloh" in his book "The Book Of TRANSFITY".
I Went to MARIST COLLEGE and if you are Familiar with "THE BIG BROTHERS" [not like KNIGHTs of the HOSPITALis] and so I;m attaching a link for your Heuristic taste bud(s) so to speak.
Then after you visit, tell me what you thinketh? O.K.!? Enjoy your Photo Finite Essence Mist NOW!
[Please see: Page 3 & 9 at, Nothing moves World more than refreshing thoughts.."]
And for some great COURT CASES [Federal & State] please SEE:
Rudolf W. Giulani, as a Prosecutor in NYC, at: Theriault Vs. Quinlan, 609 F. Supp, 733 (S.D.N.Y., 1985, may.) AND;
Former FBI & CIA Director at; Remmer Vs. Brewer, 494 F.2d 1277 (1974) et seq. AND;
SHILOH PREVAILS for ECLATi minded and hungry Asperants for IT (reality) in;
Loney Vs. Scurr, 494, F.Supp 928 (1980) AND;
Loney Vs. Scurr, 474 F.supp, 1186 (1979) et seq.
You Can go to an online "Law Library" like findlaw.com et al.
please get back to me after you research and do not listen to the jealous folk on these blogs, O.K.? SHOLOM and Let There Be Photons in Gridarion Democracy & Beyond for ALL. Always. : + )/ Ya Ya Mons a Mono's friend(s) et al.
Another nice Legal case [On SECULARISM is a FAITH?] at; LEMON V. KURTZMAN, 413 U.S. 602 (1971).
"Sincerity" is the "C.R.U.X.O.L.O.G.Y. of IT ALL.
bY: jACOB jOZEVZ ( ordained RM, CRUXOLOGIST ). : + )' Ya Ya.
"personally I think that we should focus more on the actual TEACHING of CHRIST than the MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY approach"
Ransom:
Thank you for making this statement. I agree 100%! I know many good Christians of many different faiths. They are all trying to live the teachings of Christ. Although I may not believe exactly as they believe, they are still good people trying to live His teachings. That is what I respect.
Having said that, I must also state that failure to believe in Jesus Christ does not stop one from being a good person. I wish all of us could focus on the good in people instead of feeling the need to tear others down because their belief system is different.
((((((((((((( Peace-Love-Rock and ROMNEY! )))))))))))
Eeeeeee Haaaaaaa Praise the "Fearless", "Non-Jealous" O.U.R.(s) True LorD G-d MY-Eclati Almighty Source-One, A/k/a,
G-d, not Man that is IN your Me ME that is the Eclati your G-d of Photons, and since WE are PHOTONS then we are G-d(s) right? a/k/a ECLATi-On(s).
WE and O.U.R.(s), are ALL in on this miracle thing or happening T.O.G.E.T.H.E.R! A/K/A unitited WE STAND diVIDED your Eclati falls.
Each has a unique frequency of ones Eclati-On photon mist(s).
Ya Ya. : + )' Show Me Where is the Sin in Being Born from the MAGMA and going toward [never back, your body & Posterity is left back, but never your Heuristical Specialized unique frequencized photinic self.]?
Do you know what I'm saying? Please feel free to ask about your Miracle in and of ypurs and O.U.R.S. ECLATI thing.
the last post that I posted was a spin off of katakaha's post..Just wanted to make sure all ya'll without the HUMOR gene realized that...the last thing I want is A Backlash like that in Baghdad..no wait that is the Muslims?? All these talks of diffrent regions and religions has me seeing things...and no not prophecy neither!!
The mormons are and have always been a good,non violent and peaceful group *** Remember Mountain Meadows! And truth is their paramount ideal *** The Book of Abraham proves it.
what is the eldils? I just wnat to figue out what that guy is saying, I know somewhere between the CAPS LOCK and the Ya Ya is an intelligent human being..humate is that a word...anyway can any of ya'll answer some quick questions for me..
1.) why can't I have more than one* wife?
2.) if I belong to a group of individuals like the Mormons and they respect me and treat me good while we enjoy worshipping Christ the Messiah, then why would that be terrible?
3.) how many Mormons does it take to elect a President??
4.) why can't we all spend more time praising Christ the Messiah instead of bickering over who does it better?
5.) oh and why don't Church of Christ listen to music?? King David danced so hard his clothes fell off, I personally couldn't dance that hard, but so what??
6.) why are Mormons any diffrent than all the other sects of Christianity lead be 'Elders' that believe their Dogma is more holy?
me personally I think that we should focus more on the actual TEACHING of CHRIST than the MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY approach
If I'm way off base with these assumptions and questions then please let me know, I just know I read the WORD and take it on FAITH, if there is a better SYSTEM out there then Let me know!!
*that is assuming I could even consider having more than one woman in my life who is willing to love me!! KING SOLOMON ANYONE???
"Just thought you could sock it to the Mormons a little harder."
I can't find that phrase in the New Testament. Was it something Jesus said to do? Can you point me to the reference?
Is it any wonder the left-wing kooks look at the "mainstream" Christians and wonder what the heck is going on? I mean, seriously people. Can't you represent just a little bit better than that? You know, be something like a _light_ on a hill instead of a burning cross?
All Comments (151)
Maurie -
Thanks for the repartee - it's very interesting to dialogue with someone on the opposite side of the fence! For the record, I am by nature a skeptic and it took many years for me to come to realize how this Truth fit all the questions I had. I fully recognize that I may be wrong, but all investigation I have done leads me to the conclusion that there is a God, and that Christianity is the most accurate understanding available of His nature.
In response to your comments -
Maurie: If god is as great as you say he is, why must we do things that bring him glory. If he is really such an omnipotent, omniscient being, he doesn't need our fealty to bring him glory. We usually characterize people who require us to espouse their greatness as megalomaniacs. Megalomaniacs generally require an unceasing show of loyalty, which infers that they are not all-powerful, but are, in fact, rather insecure."
God doesn't "need" our fealty for His glory, but He does deserve it. It is what we were created for, and we are the only creatures on Earth with the cognitive ability to recognize the possibility of the Supernatural because He wants us to recognize who He is. I understand your comparison to megalomania, but that is a pejorative term usually placed on people who perpetrate evil on others, passively or agressively, through their hunger for power. God has no co-dependent type of craving for our love, but as a Father He wants us to love Him and show Him the respect He deserves. He has no need for power, because he contains it all. The evil that exists on Earth is caused by man, not by God.
Maurie: "So, you are saying if a serial killer who rapes and murders, then completely repents before god and accepts Christ as his savior, may go to heaven (perhaps a detour to purgatory), but I won't. What kind of a god is that? What about innocent children who die before even being exposed to Christianity? They all are refused entry into heaven? I guess I'll be joining Mark Twain and most of the other great thinkers and moralists in warmer climes for eternity."
What kind of a God is that? A God who only asks that you acknowledge who He is and love Him, accepting what He has revealed. Those who have never had the opportunity to hear the Truth are not accountable to it - but if we hear it, if it is accessible and understandable to us and we turn away, we are openly rejecting Him. Children under the age of accountability are not subject to hell. However, we are all accountable to God for everything we have done on earth, rapists, murderers, thieves, liars, and so on will have to answer for what they have done, whether they repented and accepted Christ or not. I have many things to answer for - things done prior to my acceptance and things after. I would never claim to be able to say that someone is "ineligible" to go to heaven unless that person specifically rejects the Gospel - and then I would only know because they told me. Their hearts are unknown to me and who knows if someone changes his mind? So, I have no comment on Mark Twain or other greats, except that if they're not there, they will be missed.
Maurie: "I would like to note that God does not sound very moral to me. In fact, if you read the bible, some of the things god does to unbelievers and believers alike is absolutely beyond the pale in terms of what we currently consider acceptable behavior."
I agree that there are some really difficult stories in the Bible. I don't have answers to all of them, but I do know that the underlying theme throughout the Judeo-Christian Bible is love. God has said repeatedly that He loves us and wants to bless us all, provided we do what He asks. What he asks is so small, and so doable, and so intuitive, I don't know why so many fight it.
Matthew 22: 36-39: 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Maurie: "I do have one final question for you. We live in a country with a secular government, where all people are considered equal before the law. No one presumes to be treated differently depending on what they believe, what religion they practice (in my case no religion at all), what their ethnic background, or what gender they are. How do you treat those in every day life? Do you make such distinctions. Do you treat believers and unbelievers differently?"
As far as I can be certain, I do not treat anyone differently. My husband is not a believer. Most of my family are not Christian. I interact on a daily basis with many different types of people, of different race, gender, creed, sexual preference, religion, etc., and I can't imagine any reason why I would treat any of these differently than I treat any Christians I know. We are all in the same boat, existing in a difficult world, trying as hard as we can to be happy and fulfilled.
I have a question for you: Have you experienced bias based on your atheism? If so, can you tell me the circumstances?
Thanks again!
Julia
May 10, 2007 6:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 10, 2007 18:45
Julie - For the record: I do not believe that morality is dependent on Christ - I believe morality is hard wired into us by our Creator.......
There is evidence that morality is semi-hardwired into our genes (see Hauser, M. D. 2006. Moral minds: how nature designed our universal sense of right and wrong. ECCO press).
Julia - I do believe that without Christ God will not allow you into Heaven, regardless of your moral example; what is the point of your morality to Him if it does not bring Him glory?
If god is as great as you say he is, why must we do things that bring him glory. If he is really such an omnipotent, omniscient being, he doesn't need our fealty to bring him glory. We usually characterize people who require us to espouse their greatness as megalomaniacs. Megalomaniacs generally require an unceasing show of loyalty, which infers that they are not all-powerful, but are, in fact, rather insecure.
So, you are saying if a serial killer who rapes and murders, then completely repents before god and accepts Christ as his savior, may go to heaven (perhaps a detour to purgatory), but I won't. What kind of a god is that? What about innocent children who die before even being exposed to Christianity? They all are refused entry into heaven? I guess I'll be joining Mark Twain and most of the other great thinkers and moralists in warmer climes for eternity.
I would like to note that God does not sound very moral to me. In fact, if you read the bible, some of the things god does to unbelievers and believers alike is absolutely beyond the pale in terms of what we currently consider acceptable behavior.
I do have one final question for you. We live in a country with a secular government, where all people are considered equal before the law. No one presumes to be treated differently depending on what they believe, what religion they practice (in my case no religion at all), what their ethnic background, or what gender they are. How do you treat those in every day life? Do you make such distinctions. Do you treat believers and unbelievers differently?
May 8, 2007 7:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 8, 2007 19:37
Hi Maurie,
A few days later, but I just read your post and wanted to address it, and I really hope you check back! I did read your original comments, by the way, thank you.
For the record: I do not believe that morality is dependent on Christ - I believe morality is hard wired into us by our Creator, but that in order to enjoy the fullness of life and to experience eternity with God, you must accept Christ and His teachings. You may be a person in your atheism who is a better example of Christian morality than I am, but what separates us is my acceptance of God and His teaching. The difference is not our behaviors, it is our perspective. That does not excuse bad behavior by Christians, either - we are all accountable to God, whether we believe in Him or not!
I do believe that without Christ God will not allow you into Heaven, regardless of your moral example; what is the point of your morality to Him if it does not bring Him glory? The greatest humanitarian acts may be done by a non-believer, and of course God does love it when anyone treats their brother or sister with kindness, but unless we acknowledge His existence and His supremity, we steal the true source of the charity from Him. If you do these things and claim "I am a good person", you are saying that you did this act on your own, without acknowledging the source of your morality, and that you do not recognize His great work in creating you and enabling you to do that act of charity.
I am ashamed by some believers who discriminate against those who do not have Christ for any reason - our purpose as Christians is only to share the love of God through Jesus with others, not to judge those who do not yet have this Truth.
I hope that clarifies it - and there were a couple others who responded to my post, let me address that now briefly:
Bubba - to clarify, the Trinity consists of three persons in one entity; God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. All are equal, all are God, all have always been, and none were Created. John 1: 1-3: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." John 1:14: "14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
It's a tricky concept but after all, it's God's, not man's, definition, and I believe that the Creator has a better understanding of it than I do, but I do accept it. The Mormon doctrine on this is significantly different and therefore un-Biblical. Noted on the Seminary school credit - that's a relief! I spent years feeling envious and now I can let it go.
RUW, Regarding my data on divorce, etc. - I confess I did not consult an outside source (as you could see, I did not cite one), but I did do a comparison study during high school between my personal experience and two friends' experience at similar schools in Southern California, and that is where I obtained my information.
Thanks all for the enlightening discussion!
Julia
May 8, 2007 2:43 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 8, 2007 14:43
Sorry - Ignore the second post. I didn't think my first (rather large post) went through - so I split it up. Hence, the second of the two statistics posts is merely a subset of the first.
May 7, 2007 5:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 7, 2007 17:50
Rusty:
"Mormonism continues to grow at a spectacular rate indicating that many people outside of the faith are drawn to its ideas. This steady growth rate indicates that not only does Mormonism nourish its adherents but that the ideas implicit in the religion appeal to a great many Americans and others throughout the world."
A source of church growth statistics from a Mormon-friendly site:
http://cumorah.com/lawoftheharvest.html#_Toc162146548
{An independent, pro-Mormon website}
David G. Stewart, Jr., MD {church member & former missionary}
"The rapid growth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a frequent and recurring theme in the secular media.
...
A closer examination of growth and retention data demonstrates that LDS growth trends have been widely overstated. Annual LDS growth has progressively declined from over 5 percent in the late 1980s to less than 3 percent from 2000 to 2005.[11] Since 1990, LDS missionaries have been challenged to double the number of baptisms, but instead the number of baptisms per missionary has halved. During this same period, other international missionary-oriented faiths have reported accelerating growth, including the Seventh-Day Adventists, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, and Evangelical (5.6 percent annual growth)[12] and Pentecostal churches (7.3 percent annual growth). For 2004, 241,239 LDS convert baptisms were reported, the lowest number of converts since 1987. The number of convert baptisms increased to 272,845 in 2006, but both missionary productivity and the total number of baptisms remained well below the levels of the early 1990s. Even more cause for concern is the fact that little of the growth that occurs is real: while nearly 80 percent of LDS convert baptisms occur outside of the United States, barely one in four international converts becomes an active or participating member of the Church. Natural LDS growth has also fallen as the LDS birth rate has progressively declined. LDS church membership has continued to increase, but the rate of growth has slowed considerably."
--------------------
May 7, 2007 5:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 7, 2007 17:47
Rusty wrote:
"Mormonism continues to grow at a spectacular rate indicating that many people outside of the faith are drawn to its ideas. This steady growth rate indicates that not only does Mormonism nourish its adherents but that the ideas implicit in the religion appeal to a great many Americans and others throughout the world."
Two sources on church growth from Mormon-friendly sites:
[1]
http://cumorah.com/lawoftheharvest.html#_Toc162146548
{An independent, pro-Mormon website}
David G. Stewart, Jr., MD {church member & former missionary}
"The rapid growth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a frequent and recurring theme in the secular media.
...
A closer examination of growth and retention data demonstrates that LDS growth trends have been widely overstated. Annual LDS growth has progressively declined from over 5 percent in the late 1980s to less than 3 percent from 2000 to 2005.[11] Since 1990, LDS missionaries have been challenged to double the number of baptisms, but instead the number of baptisms per missionary has halved. During this same period, other international missionary-oriented faiths have reported accelerating growth, including the Seventh-Day Adventists, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, and Evangelical (5.6 percent annual growth)[12] and Pentecostal churches (7.3 percent annual growth). For 2004, 241,239 LDS convert baptisms were reported, the lowest number of converts since 1987. The number of convert baptisms increased to 272,845 in 2006, but both missionary productivity and the total number of baptisms remained well below the levels of the early 1990s. Even more cause for concern is the fact that little of the growth that occurs is real: while nearly 80 percent of LDS convert baptisms occur outside of the United States, barely one in four international converts becomes an active or participating member of the Church. Natural LDS growth has also fallen as the LDS birth rate has progressively declined. LDS church membership has continued to increase, but the rate of growth has slowed considerably."
--------------------
[2]
http://messengerandadvocate.wordpress.com/tag/growth
{pro-Mormon; affiliated?}
data for year 2006
--------------------
from: Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches (2007)
Mormon Church: 5,690,672 members (North American)
church growth rate: 1.63 percent.
{US population approx: 300,000,000, Canadian approx: 33,100,000
Percentage of North Americans who are Mormons: less than 2%}
May 7, 2007 5:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 7, 2007 17:42
My old friend Sterling Doughty from Steamboat Springs Colorado was fond of a revealing phrase:
"Bringham Young, and plenty of 'em."
May 7, 2007 1:40 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 7, 2007 13:40
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/mormon). I would like to post some of my thoughts in hopes of generating some conversation that would be meaningful and constructive.
First of all I would like to say that I would love to answer any question posted on here that is written out of a sincere desire to learn or to be informed. Questions that are posed with the intention to create controversy by those who oppose the teachings of the LDS Church will not promote understanding. Let us all seek to accentuate the positive, with kindness and respect. If you are sincerely wondering what we believe and what we do as Mormons, ask us and we will be more than happy to answer.
For other Mormons who are reading this and might wonder how to respond to some of the comments in this forum, may I quote the words of the modern prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, "Let us not be proud or arrogant. Let us be humbly grateful. And let us, each one, resolve within himself or herself that we will add to the lustre of this magnificent work of the Almighty, that it may shine across the earth as a beacon of strength and goodness for all the world to look upon."
As for myself, I was born into an LDS family and was privileged to learn the teachings of Christ from my parents early in my life, but I have learned for myself through personal study and prayer that Christ is the Savoir of the world. Through demonstrating our faith in Christ by following his teachings we can live with God again.
For those of other faiths, I would invite you to take what you have learned, what you have obtained in terms of light and knowledge and bring it with you and see if we cannot add to it, expound upon it and make it brighter. Let us put a cease to the contention and bickering and seek to find common grounds and build from there.
I repeat that I would gladly welcome any question that is posted with a sincere desire to learn, or in an effort to sincerely clarify misunderstanding.
May 7, 2007 12:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 7, 2007 12:11
Att: J O H N D. 1st, et al;
Hello Cyber Friend(s);
You can scroll up and see the link at my response to RANSOM, et al.
You can google Dr. "Harry Theriault." I know that he has had a "MELCHIZEDIK PEACE BLESSING" saying something to the effect of "Annulling and Or Cancelling Previous WAR BLESSING(s) via their Angel Character GABRIEL,
Note: Melchizedik is Above Angel Michael, Gabrial et al;
And Melchizedik is equal in rank to ABRAHAM, And Melchizedik is Both Priest & King as angel and Blessed the JOKTAN- Race of lost scattered Mahdi People.
And The ALLK Five Major Religions of today are now rendered ABSOLETE! a/k/a Pre=Apocalyptarian believers who are Against Faith-Exchanging for "Healing Of The Nations & Usher in Global Peace under a ONE-HOLY-TRUE BIBLE a/k/a O.U.R.S.! One Universal Religion System for ALL in "Genuine Equality" of Faith in Truth etc. via the U.N. making IT mandatory for that purpose of CRUXOLOGICALLY validating the Thought HEURISTIC points of ALL 5 Major Scriptures & Sub Scriptures as a Synthesis of ridding the curses and hence curing the Evil not 21st thinking dogma & Beyond.
I Need to Run & catch-up with my self.. SHolom w/Shiloh is here Now!
Remember It is the Message & not the Prophet that counts NOW!
P.S. There are alot of Court Cases that involve his CONS a/k/a Church of The New Song. But I do not belong nor have I ever belonged to such church or some say, cult [it is not by Shiloh, but others behind his back do make it a cult thus defying Shiloh's authentic message.
I was Ordained, as a Revelation Minister and given the title "CRUXOLOGIST" by "The Light/Photon Bringer" a.k.a "The Bishop" of Tellus [old name for Space-Ship Momma Poppa Earth] a/k/ "Shiloh" and other Eclatarion names.
My job, as an Eclatarion, not eclatarian, is to Uphold & Make Honorable the faith, and spread the word before the creation of the O.U.R.s a/k/a "ECLAT-i-Book", and WE HUMATES are known as Eclat-i-On's, Not Eclati-Offs,.
ECLAT= A brilliance Bursting Forth {Flash 1st followed by Bang 2nd, that order and not other way to contrary thinking today, in order to appreciate the PROPHECY coming out of the BARD's Holyer then Thou's Mouth!
Shiloh's favovorite words are "G-D Consents But Only For a TIME" and also; "To Listen or hear your Eclat inside, one must Meditate.
And to Talk or Speak to the "Fearlesss & Unjealous" Lord G-D ECLAT & "i" in IT that is in ALL, one must pray.
"IT" or "ITSELF" is Eclat is a Source & is a G-d & more than Manmade G-ds of Lore & their non god created Epochs. More More...
And best blessing of all, is that Melchizedik, came via PRISON to "Transfinity Mountain" to our Fore-Bearer of the vision & the Message from the Melchizedik Peace Blessing, resulting in a MIRACLE that is NOW OUR(S) DISPENSATION that will Unite {by US Joktan Eberu's] and wrestle the Old thinking World away from the ancient "PELEG" people who are wrongly fighting over a name for a religion that they still do not understand because there are To many Confusing flavors of G.O.D. or by whatever name, is about!
I have to go. bye Bye All. Chow!
May 7, 2007 9:29 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 7, 2007 09:29
On another backwards Monday let me ask, "In a America, do we have a right to Believe ?". Some may argue that if the belief in question is Christianity then by all means, yes.
So, the virtues taught by JC would have to be explified through the particular sect of Christianity right ? I mean truth and charity top the list to me. And yet, through Christianity are we not taught, that all people are God's children, be circumsised in spirit type of stuff.
And so to me our society makes Christianity the standard to judge all religions. And yet, the Constitution of America goes beyond religion to a spiritual idealism in my book. And founding fathers words went beyond practices of the day. In otherwords a bunch of slave owners said that all men are created equal.
A constant theme is evidenced in American history paralleling mormoms which is isolationism. Quaker, Shakers and Onieda sects come to mind. Mennonite cloisters are still much in evidence today. These examples expound on a fact that certain sects of Christianity in America avoided the mainstream. And for the most part society afforded to them, "The Right to Believe".
Interesting to note the FBI investigates Cults. There are now specific profiling tools to identify cults which may or maynot pose a threat to themselves or the rest of society.
I can think of at least one Christian Cult aligning itself with one particular sect of Christianity. I would think that it would be unfair to name the sect because this Christian Cult is not an example of Christianity or the particular sect in my view.
Let me be direct. One person or one family acting out on its own motives does not make a religious practice God ordained. Charasmatic movements usually follow a particular charasmatic leader. The question needs to be asked in civil tones, is this a righteous man or a Jimmy Jones ?
My opinion is that if there is a "Right to Believe" in America based on the spirituality of the Constitution then that right is still evolving. That's because in practice the right is still focused on Christianity. Some branches of worship may slide if they pass the Christianity test.
My argument is that the Constitution is far more lenient in affording a right to believe to all people. Does it not afford the right not to believe as well ? My bigotry is based on history, I have contempt for Church/State unions.
May 7, 2007 9:28 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 7, 2007 09:28
Well it was a good idea to have a discussion, but a few idiots ruined it for everyone. I remember a statement made by Mark Twain...."It's better for a man to hold his piece and to be thought a fool, than to open his mouth and remove all doubt."
Lots of fools have revealed themselves here.
May 7, 2007 1:02 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 7, 2007 01:02
Jozevz,
Thank for your participation. I always enjoy your posts. I am trying to find some info on Eclati or eclations. Can you help me out?
May 7, 2007 12:22 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 7, 2007 00:22
Att: Girl from Mormon [Similar}. Shiloh is Sholom!
Better to VOTE for a MORMON then to votoe for a Moron, No?
(((((((((((( Peace LOVE Rock Mit ROMNEY Ya! )))))))
Eclati-Ons Love and support and will and have endorsed ROMNEY! ROMNEY!
PRESIDENT: Mr. Romney & First Lady Romney!
Parise the Fearless Non Jealous Holy NO MON G-d Almighty ECLATi and all!
Ya Ya Eeeee Haaa : + ) / Ya Ya.
ALL ECLATi-Ons: Hear Yhea Hear Yhea: Vote ROMNEY for PREZ NOW! Ya Monsa Monso's! Ya Ya. Goossyy Bumpy's.
May 6, 2007 6:12 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 6, 2007 18:12
I want to know what is wrong with a religion that obeys the law, has good standards, loves to serve and help people, and much more other good things? What is the matter with that? I am proud to be a Mormon.
May 6, 2007 5:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 6, 2007 17:59
Att: Good Morning Cyber friend, et al;
Please, Atheist(s) have "Rights", like to "Choose" to pick from different "Ice-cream flavors of Religion(s). Note the "Plurality" of an Atheist(s), Gnostic, Agnostic etc, dilemma of having to choose from them, if any.
But I say, Atheists are potential believers, And believe IT (your g-d Eclati) or Not!
Now on Homosexuality [koochi Poochi a/k/a Sex acts and Thoughts? here.
Homosapience have rights too, and they have or want to have a choice on "Proselytizing their homo-ness" in the open so to speaketh.
Homoness comes in two ways. [I am not Gay in this Life Form].
1) Is Biological & Hormonal Imbalance(s), that makes one all Gay.[Physically & Mental]. from what I've observed through out.
2) Is Mental & not due Hormonal imbalance. NOTE:
This type of acting or behaving, especially in PUBLIC (Sex & Religion should always be kept PRIVATE & not just closets) is the part of behavior that is "Homosexual" because of being exposed from a young age and or via friends and or in family, or via forced entry and hence psychological underpinnings.
Att: Brother(s) Sister(s) JOHN, et al ; Again;
We Eclati-On(s), know that LIFE IS A MIRACLE & ZERO SIN BEING BORN IN ITSELF as STUFF. Via Magma & now beyond!
Wherefore: Sex, is beautiful and is how we got here! (Tautology never the less here).
Therefore this is Genuine LOVE & Miracle at ITs best, for us to rejoice in, and to never be or think one is or should ever be Guilty [Shame ,sin] of coming , in style & elegantly via OURS own Heuristic but NAKED Photo finite essence Carbon Atomic chemical flesh & blood,
via TRANSFINITY (your reality as Temperature in Grid locomotion) and projectile d out of the MAGMA and Heading INTO THE “Plasma” an now appearing on this Space-Ship momma poppa Earth here right John, et al?
Important: Sex is Miracle ITSELF (G-d Eclati in and of you that proves NATURE is LOVE. Sex is beautiful. Sex is a/k/a "Pleasure."
And yes, sex is POWER! Yet sex and their very acts & thoughts(?) can”Transgress” (Knowing or not) another's natural or artificial "Preferences."
Example: I'm In N.Y.City, on the train and I see a guy, his three kids & his wife, I guess, wearing a complete “Burka” (Islamic Mask w/little holes). This was Transgressing my Secular and Eclati-on beliefs, Cosmic Faith & my Heuristics as my unique Religion in my Transfinity.
A/k/a Knowingly testing Mr & Mrs. Joe PUBLIC(s) “Secular Law Minded” And the religious Laws followers minded public, as Open culture, not just traditions. .
But Then I depart and enter inside a Shuttle Bus. Woe and behold, what do I see?, I see two guys (30's) holding hands, and then when the bus comes to a certain spot, One of the hand holders suddenly lets go and tongue kisses and leaves like a Man. Not Girl. Note: The Transgression here is that the Little kids have to watch that, and this act or Public behavior is BAD REALITY TV or is contrary to the Laws of their own Nature (Hormonal or Psychological or Both) for the Gay People, of not just in America, but also the world too.
This is not liked by most folks in Public. Hence enjoy your life in Photons but please keep your Sexual-Pleasures Private! Homo or not!
We now know that AID's exists. And We now know that, even though Chimps & Bonobos are our close genetic counter parts of OUR(S) [Me Me “i” ] offspring, that they to HAVE or CARRY the HIVs virus precursors of this "Deadly Deceit Syndrome" that has killed and recked havoc on so may many innocent people (?).
I believe AIDS has killed more people than those whom died World Wide via car accidents alone. Not by secular dictators from some other Epoch.
And HIV Statistics, does not bode well for the Homosexual folks or their interrelated groups and or couples having certain inalienable rights that needs 1st. Amend Protections..
Remember: The biggest SIN that ANY- Eclati-On can commit, is Unjustifiable-HOMICIDE, not Homoside!
We live in America and OURS U.S.A. CONSTISTUTION, Like the Universe & the Laws of Nature are Its (G-d Eclat the creator) “CLAUSES, that life is, and should always be recognized, that as Humates having a Natural “HUMANITY-DOCTRINE: that ALL must know and be Aware of their very unique own Photon frequency Channel of LOVE in the Holy Cosmic Heart Beat of OURS TIME here now! WE ARE BORN IN MIRACLE and Zero-Sin, Right?
Therefore: ALL sexual Acts must be kept conscience in respect to ones Public Obligation and to ones Private Obligations as respect for ALL and not selfishness as displayed by some.. This is the Crux of the Homosexual Gay Rights movements and beefs.
I believe that Army saying, “Do Not ask .... “ and hence Do Not tell nor Volunteer so, is best policy, regardless in what State one is in or what Nation,. So best policy is Enjoy Sex, do not abuse IT, and keep your Hormones & Psychological hang ups to one self and your own kinds.
We Exist because “The Great Eclati “ is about Temperature (ITSELF a/k/a lord G-d Almighty & beyond) doing IT's (G-d a/k/a ITSELF) ) thing via the Vibrationals & the Plasmaticals and thus Eclati & OUR ECLATi-On's “Never Die” because WE and G-d are ETERNITY(s) AVOIDING LONLINESS via All things Animate & via All thing Inanimate, known to US or Unknown & Beyond! Hence: Life Is Beautiful, IMAGINE Peace, Love, Rock and Roll?!
Like there is LIFE IN PHOTON/light , then . “Shiloh” The Light/Photon Bringer is OURS SHOLOM NOW!
By: Jacob Jozevz Ordained RM of CRUXOLOGY et al.
Ya Ya. : + )/ umm Enjoy Life, as is Mons., et al !
May 6, 2007 10:57 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 6, 2007 10:57
To Christopher Dicki the writer: THANK YOU for writing something uplifting. So much written by people in the recent forums regarding the LDS faith has been so mean spirited towards their fellow Americans. Thank you Again.
May 6, 2007 9:34 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 6, 2007 09:34
To David Waite:
I enjoyed your comments. I grew up in Utah, but for the past 15 have lived other places. I understand your point of view. I think that the Church is perceived much different in places where we are minorities. I could be wrong... Anyway, I just wanted to point out and remember that JFK didn't implement his religious beliefs in is marriage. Just food for thought.
May 6, 2007 9:28 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 6, 2007 09:28
I have to love the arrogance of atheists, considering more people have been murdered in the name of atheism and egalitarianism than any other idea, over 100 million people.
Homosexuals are the epitome of arrogance, expecting everyone to accept their sexual choices and their feelings. What gives you the right to transgress upon my religious freedom? Homosexuality is a disorder, and considering all of the studies that were used to declassify homosexuality as mental illnesses were fraudulent and scientifically useless, homosexuality is what it always was. Sodomy is not a civil right.
Homoarrogance is a sin.
May 6, 2007 8:06 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 6, 2007 08:06
Mormonism will slowly fade from society as will contemporary Christianity, Judaism and Islam because of the obvious problems with the founders of these religions especially their angelic/satanic hallucinations and related prophecies. "Pretty and ugly wingie thingies" simply do/did not exist. Associating the Singularity with these mythical assistants and opponents mocks the concept of God the Almighty.
The Good Word was articulated by the ancients using reasoning and common sense. These Words of Wisdom were simply repeated with each major race and religion. Unfortunately the Words were attibuted to embellished men in most cases as a means of profiteering as noted by the contemporary billions of dollars owned and controlled by the Mormon, Christian, Jewish and Moslem religions. It is time to get our money back!!!!!
May 6, 2007 3:30 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 6, 2007 03:30
The Articles of Faith of the LDS Church:
1)We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2)We believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression.
13)We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men...
I don't have time to list them all; go to LDS.org and read them. I am a member of the LDS church who has spent most of my life in the San Francisco Bay Area. I have also lived in Texas and Utah. I've been all over the country, and visited many other countries. I have close friends of all religions and preferences. I have never experienced a fraction of the intolorance and hatred that is strewn about this blog, whether it be Mormon to non-Mormon or vice versa. In defense to these awful blog contributions, I must say that every LDS church member I know on a personal level (hundreds, and from all sorts of places) is a NORMAL, DECENT, TOLORANT, LOVING, CHARITABLE, HUMBLE, UPSTANDING CITIZEN. If any of you have had bad experiences with members of the LDS church, I am deeply sorry. People are at the very least highly imperfect and often very short-sighted and immature. Forgive them and move on. Can't we all just get along?
May 6, 2007 1:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 6, 2007 01:59
Att: A.A.R.O.N. S.c.o.t.t. et al
Is patience realy an essence of TIME?
You sound like Aaron Burr. Just kidding Sir.
Huggs and kisses to ALL the Brother(s) & the Sister(s).
Xtra huggy for you Mr. Scott. Praise the Lord. beam me up scotty! ya Ya Ya Mons.
"Shiloh" is come and Sholom is near! Thank G-d Almighty in me mt Me Me in ALL.
<?: + )' Ya Ya. (((((( T O L E R E N C E ))))))
May 5, 2007 11:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 23:31
Forgive me, those of you who are perusing this "blog" seriously, for adding yet one more posting in this short period of time. I have been reviewing others in the Washington Post series and feel compelled to offer a comment relevant to nearly all threads I've examined.
I see more than a few (at least reasoned and rational) postings that attempt to attack the LDS church on the basis of "tolerance". Let us examine that word. The word "tolerance" means to accept deviation from the ideal, or required specification. Therefore, "intolerance" is the opposite. It seems from my readings that among those of man-made faith (or none at all) it is believed that ALL ideas should be accepted among ALL people in the name of "tolerance". (Aside: if you have no belief in God, you might examine the "objectivist" philosoply of Ayn Rand who possessed no faith, but DID possess an exceptional mind that would have been revolted at the concept of "tolerance".)
To you advocates of "Tolerance", I pose a challenge: will you wager your life by driving on a suspension bridge built from steel from a manufacturer that was "tolerant" of excess carbon in the the steel? Built by a contractor who was "tolerant" of the construction practices of unskilled labor? Designed by an engineer who was "tolerant" of a 10% deviation in the wind-load calculations (I offer the unwitting example of the Tacoma Narrows bridge in the 40s)? No? Are you, also, then, so intolerant?
If any of you reading this have a functioning mind at all, you must realize that there really does exist the issue of ABSOLUTE value. God's truths are absolute. But, "no", you say, religion is different from physical law (and you, amazingly, cannot see that they are one and the same).
Then I offer those same "tolerant" readers this challenge: tell yourself you "don't believe in gravity" and then (please) go jump off a high place and tell yourself that because you do not believe, you will suffer no penalty for your lack of belief.
If any person living can refute a word of this, please contact Harvard, or Stanford, or MIT or any institute of learning and let them know of your marvelous ability to transcend natural law by your refusal to "believe". I, personally, feel only wonder at what your first thoughts will be when you, like all of us, pass beyond this mortal veil and discover--alas! all too late--that your thoughtless following of thoughtless purveyors of thoughtlessness have led you to piss away this most precious life of which you will by then have realized the value.
None of you need bother to attempt to refute this monolog: absolute truth cannot be refuted and absolutism cannot be abrogated by refusal to acknowledge its existence.
The next thing of which I will be accused is being "arrogant", because of the obvious surety with which I speak. Surety, yes. God alone offers surety. I boast only of God's goodness. I rejoice only in that Absolute Standard that God has given me. Nothing of which any of us are possesed belongs to us and to believe so really IS "arrogance". Except stupidity, which is the "gift" of Satan. Choose, then, in whose debt you wish to be.
Dear God! but these "blogs" have revealed to me a level of human decadence I, in all my cynicism, had heretofore not realized. How unutterably depressing this forum has proven. And yet, knowing God, I can endure. I offer that challenge to all of you subjectivist, "tolerant" readers.
May 5, 2007 11:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 23:17
Att: "Warm-Heart", Sister(s) Brother(s) Sholom!
(((((((( V.O.T.E. O.U.R.S. NOW! ))))))))))
One Universal Religion System. "ONE-BOOK" of IT!
A United Nations creation for ALL HUMATE- Species here on Space-Ship Momma Poppa Earth, sister Luna, brothers Mars etc..
That will fullfill the prophecy for healing of the Nations and usher-in World peace via the Faith Exchange in GRIDARION *** DEMOCRACY!
There is sholom in "Shiloh"
"....They Sang A NEW SONG for healing of ......"
-ISA: 42:10, 21 et seq.
-REV: 5:9, 14:3, 22:23 et seq.
Praise my Ec;ati in ALL. Ya Ya, IT is FREE., come ONE comeALL never fear, OURS Shiloh has come already and is among thee. : + )/ No joke!
May 5, 2007 11:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 23:11
Sorry, not JOSEVZS but
JOZEVZ
May 5, 2007 10:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 22:56
Fortune Cookies of the Day:
" Who has confidence in himself will gain the confidence of others."
"We write our own destiny. We become what we do."
"Teachers open the door but you must enter yourself."
And these two are just for you JACOB JOSEVZS:
"There is no wisdom greater than kindness."
"Use your instincts now."
(((((HUGS)))))
May 5, 2007 10:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 22:50
ATT: S.w.e.e.t. ting & ARRon et al:
VOTE: O.U.R.S. a/k/a One Universal Religion System "Holy-Book!
Please throw away your scriptures of Mass Destruction. Surrender to your very own ECLATi.
Note: IT a/k/a G-d or ITSELF is FREE. IT never dies. IT goes with you where ever, when ever, how ever and best of ALL FOREVER more!
Eeeeee Haaaa! Praise the Holy No Mon Eclati in me my Me Me in all. Wow! I Gots the GOOOSSSYYY BUMMPYS! And a vibrational photonic Cosmic LOVE feeling.
Life is so beautiful with OURS ECLATi, that part that was never created nor that can be destroyed.
just think Good, Say Good, Do Good, act good etcc on this unsinful Miraculous georgious beutiful Space-Ship Momma Poppa Earth & Beyond.
BEWARE: OURS Grandma-Sun will also die, and we with IT, in +/- 6/7 billion Years.
P.S. Vote for an 8 day week. No Joke either! Ya Ya mons. <?: + )' Oh Lord!
May 5, 2007 10:40 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 22:40
I suppose we'd better add the previous posting to the list of transportees. This "blog" is supposed to be a serious discussion between (reasonably) rational humans on issues of importance. There is no place here for the irrational ramblings of lunatics. Please find the proper place where you sadly demented creatures can beat yourselves into (if possible) even greater insensibility without burdening those of us already struggling in a world polluted by the mere existence of such unreason. I understand Beta Zar is offering financial incentives for immigrants: apply at www.godsaveus.com.
May 5, 2007 10:12 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 22:12
It is now 7 plus years after the millenium, time for all of the crazies to crawl back into their caves for another thousand years; GOD is not coming, again!
Also time for the Christians to give it up. Celebrating the torture and death of their GOD for the terrible calamity of being created defective by the "Just" GOD defective and then requiring "Human" sacifice to GOD for taht same GOD's mistake is bizarre and just plain dumb.
The so-called Bible is such a ridiculus accumulation of distortions, lies, ignorance, and endless contradictions; to use this "book" as a basis of spiritual work is a hopeless mess.
Those who treat their chosen words from this book as literal are especially crazy! Have you noted that the most common phrase for these people is "And that means" ... something different than what it saya we guess. They claim a respect for life in a pwtre dish, yet support an immoral war by an immoral President. They support killing thousands by preventing effective prevention because they think all sperm squirted inot a condrum is murder or worse. Their blind support of crusades and zionist movements have killed thousands more. Their ignorance is an ugly thing and their hypocracy is evil; we must move on from these pathetic people.
May 5, 2007 9:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 21:51
Is it possible to ship the creature "Jacob Jazevz" to Frogstar B, where he would be happier and benefit 6 billion humans immensely? The man quite obviously has a brain that leaks; is filled with hate, has fewer than 3 functioning neurons and obviously thinks than random characters typed constitute "communication". The man is a disease and the mere existence of such a creature demonstrates quite palpably that all Christ spoke of in these last days is utterly true. Please, you revolting excresence, go back to New York (or whatever cesspool you crawled from) and let those of us who attempt to honestly communicate do so without your really mindless babblings. Have you sought professional help for your existence?
May 5, 2007 9:30 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 21:30
Att: B A R B et al:
It all sounded nice until you got to Nephi at 21, saying, "AMEN."
Please Brethren, Never say "Amon or Amen".
You are still thanking a he nor a she 1/2Man & 1/2Beast. This is a Relic saying, from the Egyptian days of biblical ancient Lores.
Note: And Barb et al, the Same goes for Symbolic Cannabilism & Vampireism. so When one Drinks or Swallows Sybolically, the BLOOD & FLESH, smbolizing, of Mr. Jesus, and not G-d, is a great discourse of heuristc in Eclati Cosmic Feelings Faith.
BEHOLD: "Shiloh" The Light Bringer is upon US and have not long ago commeth to OURS!
<? + )' Enjoy Photons.
This is real Warmth and genuine LOVE to exist in Miracla and never Sin is a Beautifull Reality to uphold, make honorable and cherish unto end of Space-Ship Earths Poof-Time comes in 7 Billion years.
Praise SOURCE ONE HOLY NO MAN ECLATi lord G-d Almighty. Halaluya. I got the Gooosy bumpy's & Photon vibrations up and down my Me Me in me and via ALL. Can You Feel the Lord ECLATi in you and ALL?
SHILOH Is our Sholom!
May 5, 2007 8:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 20:26
Peter,
Just an add on that you might also enjoy...
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 25:23)
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
May 5, 2007 8:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 20:05
it's degenerated enough for long enough...
May 5, 2007 7:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 19:56
Peter
"Forgiveness of sins: I stated that forgiveness of sins is something we cannot earn, do not deserve and is something granted to us through the grace of God. "
I agree and site the following:
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 2:8)
8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 31:21)
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
"If Paul isn't enough for you, Jesus tells the parable of the workers and the wages. It's only one of several parables that affirm the grace and love of God is what saves us. The workers who arrive at the last hour receive the same wages as those who worked all day, at the discretion of the employer. "
This may give you some added understanding:
Dallin H. Oaks
As we seek to determine whether we have become true Latter-day Saints—inwardly as well as outwardly—it soon becomes apparent that the critical element is progress, not longevity. The question is not how much time we have logged, but how far we have progressed toward perfection. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell has said, ‘Life is not lineal, but experiential, not chronological, but developmental.’ 1 The issue is not what we have done but what we have become. And what we have become is the result of more than our actions. It is also the result of our attitudes, our motives, and our desires. Each of these is an ingredient of the pure heart.
Some persons achieve great progress toward perfection with just a few of life's experiences. Others seem to pass through the same experiences again and again and yet remain relatively unchanged by them. The contrast is suggestive of the difference between the status of one person with four years' experience and another person with one year's experience repeated twenty times. The question is not longevity but growth. Growth is not measured by a clock or an odometer but by what has happened in the heart.
These truths provide an insight into the parable of the laborers in the vineyard …When the day was over, the householder instructed his steward to pay every man the same wage. Those that were hired at the eleventh hour received the same as those who had worked all day. When the all-day workers murmured, complaining that those who had worked but one hour were paid the same as those who had ‘borne the burden and heat of the day’ (Matthew 20:12), the house-holder reminded them that all had been paid the agreed amount and therefore none had any cause for complaint.
This parable teaches us that the rewards we will receive in the judgment will not be computed according to the duration of our service. Exaltation, the ultimate reward of the Father, is available to all who qualify.2 Eternal life is "the greatest of all the gifts of God. None can receive more than this.
By reason of their willingness and their loyalty to their master, by the end of the day the laborers hired in the eleventh hour had become as much—had qualified as completely—as those who had served the entire period. The master's rewards were not given for the time served or for any other external measure. His rewards were for the ultimate and comprehensive internal measure—what the workers had become within themselves as a result of their service.
1 (Ensign, December 1986, p. 23)
2 (See Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966] 1:561.)
(Pure In Heart, Bookcraft, p. 140)
(Dallin H. Oaks is a current apostle of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and a former State Supreme Court Judge)
May 5, 2007 7:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 19:47
((((((((( Peace-Love-Rock M. ROMNEY, For Prez ))))))))
Ya Ya Monsa Monso *<?: + )/ Tax Payer Pledge & More
Let there be Photons! *<?: + )/
May 5, 2007 7:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 19:31
You don't have to be a moron to be a Mormon. But it helps.
May 5, 2007 3:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 15:35
OH JESUS MARIA PLEEZE WHATS GOING ON. HERE WE HAVE A CULT THAT DENEGRATES WOMEN, GAYS AND LESBIANS TO 2ND CLASS STATUS AND THEY THINK THEIR CHURCH IS MAINSTREAM! GET A LIFE!
SOME OF THOSE DUDES THAT RUN THE CHURCH ARE RIPE TO JOIN BARNUM AND BAILEY CIRCUS THEY HAVE OPENINGS FOR HOMOPHOBIC CLOWNS RIGHT NOW! NO WONDER MEMBERS HAVE TO DONATE 10 % OF THEIR INCUM TO THE CHURCH, REMEMBER JOSEPH SMITH AND BRIGHAM YOUNG HAD WELL OVER 100 WIVES IN BETWEEN THEM! OH JESUS IT SHOW US ONCE MORE THAT RELIGION IS THE PROBLEM AND NOT THE ANSWER!
May 5, 2007 1:23 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 13:23
Att: R.A.N.S.O.M., DEB, et al:
Remember Brother(s) Sister(s) Today, Tomorrow & Beyond:
"For out of Prison [or poverty] He Commeth to Rein..., ISIAH: 53 (all) and; ECCL: 4:14, et seq.
I only respect my "Elders" when IT(your g-d Eclati) comes to "Shiloh" (The Photon Bringer not so much light) the one HUMATE, today who has had a DISSPENSATION of the "MELCHIZEDIK-PEACE-BLESSING" that will usher Humate-Kind a World PEACE & healing of Nations & more.
And, hence; "The WAR BLESSING is now ANNULED according to "Shiloh" in his book "The Book Of TRANSFITY".
I Went to MARIST COLLEGE and if you are Familiar with "THE BIG BROTHERS" [not like KNIGHTs of the HOSPITALis] and so I;m attaching a link for your Heuristic taste bud(s) so to speak.
Then after you visit, tell me what you thinketh? O.K.!? Enjoy your Photo Finite Essence Mist NOW!
http://library.marist.edu/archives/Circle/1984/1984_5_3.pdf
[Please see Page One, "And now the New Song..."]
****** NOVEL STAR AT ITS BEST ******* And;
http://library.marist.edu/archives/Circle/1985/1985_1_31.pdf
[Please see: Page 3 & 9 at, Nothing moves World more than refreshing thoughts.."]
And for some great COURT CASES [Federal & State] please SEE:
Rudolf W. Giulani, as a Prosecutor in NYC, at: Theriault Vs. Quinlan, 609 F. Supp, 733 (S.D.N.Y., 1985, may.) AND;
Former FBI & CIA Director at; Remmer Vs. Brewer, 494 F.2d 1277 (1974) et seq. AND;
SHILOH PREVAILS for ECLATi minded and hungry Asperants for IT (reality) in;
Loney Vs. Scurr, 494, F.Supp 928 (1980) AND;
Loney Vs. Scurr, 474 F.supp, 1186 (1979) et seq.
You Can go to an online "Law Library" like findlaw.com et al.
please get back to me after you research and do not listen to the jealous folk on these blogs, O.K.? SHOLOM and Let There Be Photons in Gridarion Democracy & Beyond for ALL. Always. : + )/ Ya Ya Mons a Mono's friend(s) et al.
Another nice Legal case [On SECULARISM is a FAITH?] at; LEMON V. KURTZMAN, 413 U.S. 602 (1971).
"Sincerity" is the "C.R.U.X.O.L.O.G.Y. of IT ALL.
bY: jACOB jOZEVZ ( ordained RM, CRUXOLOGIST ). : + )' Ya Ya.
May 5, 2007 12:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 12:56
"personally I think that we should focus more on the actual TEACHING of CHRIST than the MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY approach"
Ransom:
Thank you for making this statement. I agree 100%! I know many good Christians of many different faiths. They are all trying to live the teachings of Christ. Although I may not believe exactly as they believe, they are still good people trying to live His teachings. That is what I respect.
Having said that, I must also state that failure to believe in Jesus Christ does not stop one from being a good person. I wish all of us could focus on the good in people instead of feeling the need to tear others down because their belief system is different.
May 5, 2007 12:23 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 12:23
((((((((((((( Peace-Love-Rock and ROMNEY! )))))))))))
Eeeeeee Haaaaaaa Praise the "Fearless", "Non-Jealous" O.U.R.(s) True LorD G-d MY-Eclati Almighty Source-One, A/k/a,
G-d, not Man that is IN your Me ME that is the Eclati your G-d of Photons, and since WE are PHOTONS then we are G-d(s) right? a/k/a ECLATi-On(s).
WE and O.U.R.(s), are ALL in on this miracle thing or happening T.O.G.E.T.H.E.R! A/K/A unitited WE STAND diVIDED your Eclati falls.
Each has a unique frequency of ones Eclati-On photon mist(s).
Ya Ya. : + )' Show Me Where is the Sin in Being Born from the MAGMA and going toward [never back, your body & Posterity is left back, but never your Heuristical Specialized unique frequencized photinic self.]?
Do you know what I'm saying? Please feel free to ask about your Miracle in and of ypurs and O.U.R.S. ECLATI thing.
May 5, 2007 10:35 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 10:35
the last post that I posted was a spin off of katakaha's post..Just wanted to make sure all ya'll without the HUMOR gene realized that...the last thing I want is A Backlash like that in Baghdad..no wait that is the Muslims?? All these talks of diffrent regions and religions has me seeing things...and no not prophecy neither!!
-ransom-
May 4, 2007 11:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 23:28
katakaha:
yeah they came to my door and wanted to explain the Teaching of the Latter Day Saints..no wait that was the Mormons'..!!
May 4, 2007 11:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 23:24
The mormons are and have always been a good,non violent and peaceful group *** Remember Mountain Meadows! And truth is their paramount ideal *** The Book of Abraham proves it.
May 4, 2007 11:21 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 23:21
what is the eldils? I just wnat to figue out what that guy is saying, I know somewhere between the CAPS LOCK and the Ya Ya is an intelligent human being..humate is that a word...anyway can any of ya'll answer some quick questions for me..
1.) why can't I have more than one* wife?
2.) if I belong to a group of individuals like the Mormons and they respect me and treat me good while we enjoy worshipping Christ the Messiah, then why would that be terrible?
3.) how many Mormons does it take to elect a President??
4.) why can't we all spend more time praising Christ the Messiah instead of bickering over who does it better?
5.) oh and why don't Church of Christ listen to music?? King David danced so hard his clothes fell off, I personally couldn't dance that hard, but so what??
6.) why are Mormons any diffrent than all the other sects of Christianity lead be 'Elders' that believe their Dogma is more holy?
me personally I think that we should focus more on the actual TEACHING of CHRIST than the MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY approach
If I'm way off base with these assumptions and questions then please let me know, I just know I read the WORD and take it on FAITH, if there is a better SYSTEM out there then Let me know!!
*that is assuming I could even consider having more than one woman in my life who is willing to love me!! KING SOLOMON ANYONE???
May 4, 2007 11:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 23:16
What really gets me is how they invaded Britain and spread their Frenchy ways all over the land. Oh, that was Normans. Sorry.
May 4, 2007 11:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 23:08
Ransom:
Ask the eldils about Jacob. I think they probably know him personally.
May 4, 2007 11:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 23:05
"Just thought you could sock it to the Mormons a little harder."
I can't find that phrase in the New Testament. Was it something Jesus said to do? Can you point me to the reference?
Is it any wonder the left-wing kooks look at the "mainstream" Christians and wonder what the heck is going on? I mean, seriously people. Can't you represent just a little bit better than that? You know, be something like a _light_ on a hill instead of a burning cross?
Have some class.
May 4, 2007 10:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments