All Comments (30)

I am a YOung Catholic and I enjoy the Latin MAss. Its mostly attended by YOung Adults, when I was studying in France, many vocations in France came from the LAtin MAss community I am not talking about SSPX but the Fraternity of St. Peter, Christ the King Sovereign and other Orders that are growing in France and elsewhere around the world.

I also attended the Byzantine Rite and the Melkite and Maronite Rites both kept the Ancient Aramaic that Jesus spoke!

Dear Konan,

Thank you for your post saying that the check is in the mail and that the deeds to our stolen properties are being recorded.

This being "On Faith", I imagine you expect us Templars to take your statement on faith.

However, we took the words of Philip the Fair and Clement V on faith and ended up tortured and burnt at the stake.

Since those days we're strictly cash-on-the-barrelhead.

Nevertheless, I'll check with the Scots Post on the morrow.

If the deeds and euros don't come through, though, our Secular Arm will be in touch with you.

Best Wishes, TPLR ++

Does anyone know the Latin for, bah, bah, bah? The Lord is my shepherd and I can't speak to Him in Latin.

Where is the Lord leading us sheep anyhow? Jesus loves lamb chops this I know, for http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul tells me so. Shepherds only appear to be protecting the sheep. After they're fleeced then straight to the slaughter house and rack-o-lamb.

CTCNL, heaven is one continuous religious service. We will spend all eternity listening to heart rendering, tear jerking, hell fire threatening sermons from all the great ministers. You know, Billy, Jerry, (already there) all the popes, Martin (both) and every jack-leg on the court square with or without a bull horn. Those lucky Muslims get to hear Muhammad himself. That's why they call it heaven. I can hardly wait.

The important point:

There is no religion in the Spirit State aka Heaven. The Gate is open to anyone of good standing with or without the assistance of B16 and/or Latin Masses.

Dear THE TEMPLAR PRECEPTIR OF LA ROCHELLE:

The deed is being recorded and the check is in the mail. Have faith.

Konan

The fact that Latin in the mass is being debated shows that religion remains the province of the 12 year old mind.

The fact that Latin in the mass is being debated shows that religion remains the province of the 12 year old mind.

Knight Hospitaller,

Most respectfully, may I inquire of you when you and your brethen will, following your full confessions and penance, undertake to return to the Poor Knights of Christ and the Temple which is in Jerusalem, their propery which was unjustly and criminally taken from them by your Order, the Knights Hospitaller (known today as the Knights of Malta), with the malign connivance of the spineless Clement V and the evil Philip IV ("The Fair")?

In lieu of returning the individual properties stolen, you may forward your Order's check for their value to me c/o General Delivery, Roslin, Midlothian, Scotland, UK, EH25 9PU.

Thank you.

ROY, the pope thinking about http://www.hoax-buster.org makes his head hurt. You're only talking about sins. The pope has the God given power to forgive sins,, and not forgive sins too so watch it.

The pope's power comes directly from God. Well, the Bible anyhow.

Matthew 18:18 "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

That was Jesus speaking. He said it was so right up front. Jesus is the son of the being in the ball of fire Moses made the deal with. All you need do is faith that being is Almighty God. Odd how IT had to use trickery and murder to get what IT wanted. Keep the faith. That really was God, (wink-wink).

Since the old German Pope has decreed those who find God other than through a bureacracy of priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals etc,are "wounded" and not Christian, why not make his own followers more confused and dependent by having his clergy speak an ancient dead language. Jesus would be proud. I'm sure He would have wanted the scriptures served in a mystic language the common folk can't understand.

Maybe Catholics can pay for translations in their own language since this Church needs more income to settle it's many lawsuits for its clergy molesting little boys.

Chester L. Gillis,

Another word to the wise:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-fMHms5Cvsw&mode=related&search=

The latin mass sounds cool . . . it harkens people back to their youth when the Mass was a "show" -- all things the English version does not. Don't overthink this too much.

Jihadist:

If Caesar had indeed set foot in your part of the world, he really would have said, "Veni, vidi, nates calce concidi". ('I came, I saw, I kicked butt! LOL).

Here is one quick reference:
http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellum_Orbis_Terrarum_II
A short history of World War II in Latin. I'll check for more. Meanwhile, google 'Latin'.

I always enjoy your posts.

The heart of religion is clarity.

Jihadist?

Is that cole deum, serva regem? or did you mean to say "fear God, worship the King?" or is my High School Latin too, too far away?

Correction to previous post: where I wrote "right" in several places, I meant rite. Sorry for poor spelling and longer paragraphs. I don't have time to be more articulate, but I felt a need to address misconceptions that a person of the professor's education knows aren't true but which he can use to persuade people who aren't as learned in theology or patristics as he to think that traditionalist positions are loony.

In many respects, they are loony. But preferring the old mass to the new isn't loony.

Alright I find your analysis flawed in several respects.

1)

"The problem is that Latin, while old, is not religion. It is neither sacred nor better than the current vernacular language. In fact, it was the vernacular language of the Roman Empire."

1a While no one would argue with the fact that Latin is not religion (and I don't think anyone would), your assertion that it is not "Sacred" is flawed. While I agree that Latin is not better than the vernacular, saying it is not sacred because it is merely the vernacular of the Roman Empire demonstrates a flawed understanding of the nature of sacred languages. Many religions use a dead language or ancient version of a modern language. All sacred languages at one time were vernacular -- sacred languages get to be "sacred" by being used for religious ceremonies after they cease being used for other purposes. Sanskrit, Hebrew, Classical Arabic, Koine Greek, Latin. Part of the advantage of a dead language is that it carries an air of mystery with it and people associate it with religious ritual. It thus becomes sacred. Now does that mean that it is superior liturgically to the vernacular -- no, but it means it is superior liturgically in some respects (and likewise with the vernacular). Your comment seems to patronize people. Everyone knows that sacred languages were at one time vernacular . . . someone who thinks otherwise isn't an intelligent proponent of the proposition in question. And addressing your criticisms to the less educated and articulate defenders of Latin creates that impression that you think that its defenders are fools. At best, its patronizing -- something many catholic clergy (even now in the post-conciliar era) are guilty of.

2) "But don’t claim the Latin Mass is more authentic or spiritually superior. It is, after all, simply another language."

The argument that the tridentine mass (not merely the "Latin" Mass) is more authentic is not because it is based in Latin but because it grew organically out of prayers historically used in the church. Those that contend that the tridentine mass was "made up" at the council of trent are disinguenuous -- the tridentine mass was a regularization of rites and texts that were currently in use at the time. The prayers and texts used in the tridentine rite were all in use in various ways and degrees used at the time of the council. Thus, it was not a "new rite" but a regularization and synthesis of currently existing rites. Thus, it is "organic". The Paul VI Mass on the other hand, according to the argument, was a far more radical change to the then existing rite and thus less organic than the tridentine rite.

I think the foregoing is true. I do not question the need for reform of the tridentine rite, including its lack of participation of the laity, silent prayers, and the absence of the vernacular as an option. The result of Vatican II however was not so much a reform of the old right but the creation of a new one. This is problematic.

I have no problem with change, reform, tolerance etc. But the way you address the issues reflects a scorn for people who see beauty in the old and a condescension I find offensive: perhaps you did not mean it in that way. I have no real problem with the Paul VI rite. I just like the old one better and I have articulate reasons for my preference and opinion. These do not include conservatism except insofar as conservatism encompasses a respect for the spiritual benefits of mysterious rituals.

Professor Gillis,

Hello! Thank you for putting this issue in a context that most writers aren't and also basing it on facts. I however, think that you failed to mention a few other items that have caused the Holy Father to decree this Motu Proprio:

1. The Second Vatican Council never called for the eradication of Latin. Please refer to VC II Document "Sacrosanctum Concilium" (I forgot off of the top of my head which paragraph). I use the term eradication, because in a span of 40 years we went from Bishops fluent in Latin to Bishops (and priest for that matter) scrambling for translation headsets at Vatican meetings.

2. Expanding the use of the Tridentine Mass gives the Faithful the opportunity to experience more of the fruits that the Church has to offer. Many of the younger people that you mentioned are curious, like you said, but they are also from a different generation in which they feel a need for a more reverant worship experience. The Ordinary Liturgy supplies this provided the priests and Bishops are not deviating from the GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal). A good pastor will not take excessive liberties with the Ordinary liturgy and misguide the Faithful. In this "information age," most younger Catholics adhering to the Catholic Faith are more savvy to scandal and cultural/world events that put them at odds with Modern-day Theologians and Liberal prelates, unlike some of their older Catholic generation who after Vatican II were experiencing an era of in-your-face Catechesis (not like today is that much better with the other extreme - watered down Catechesis). This younger generation greatly admired Pope John Paul II, tuned in to Life Teen groups, and feel more compelled to engage in apologetics with peoples of other Faiths. Their older generation on the other hand was growing up in a socially liberalizing era (50s & 60s) in which any Ecclesial changes on both social and spiritual issues that loosened the rigidity that they felt they were experiencing, was more welcome.

3. I do agree that one should not attend the Tridentine Mass simply because they think its more Catholic than the Novus Ordo, because this goes against what you had mentioned on the Church's tradition. If one goes to the Tridentine Mass because they think it's "cool," or that hearing the liturgy in Latin "sounds tight," then they are there for the wrong reason. I purposefully used those two phrases because that is what I've heard from a minority of Catholic youngsters also. The Church, the Mass, the Sacraments, the Church's teachings....bottom line, the Catholic Faith is not an extension of Secular politics, the Equal Rights Era (Feminist Theology...wink, wink, nudge, nudge) of past decades or a social experiment. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass or any other fruits that Holy Mother Church spiritually nourishes and nurtures us with, are not a source of entertainment for temporal appeal to the Faithful either.

Jihadist,

"Desperate times calls for desperate measures."

Or, as Will S. put it:

"Diseases desperate grown are by desperate appliance relieved, or not at all."

I hope you are having a good weekend, too.

Norrie Hoyt

Yes, to invoke the spirit of Henry II, but better still for either Wiccan, Terra Gazelle and Paganplace, or all three, to cast spells for peace in Susan Jacoby's thread that I just saw. It is getting really nasty in spite of her several interventions.

A lot of supernatural help and power is needed here, either from God or Pagans summoning up Mother Nature and/or the Great Goddess.

An electrical blow-out or website crash would do too, if our favourite Pagans would not do that or to take out their brooms to whip some sense into, or to whip senseless, some of the more excitable posters there.

Desperate times calls for desperate measures.

Hope you have a good weekend.

Best regards as always
J

P.S. Jihadist,

Do you think one of our Pagan posters could conjure up the spirit of Henry II?

Could you and I then get him to revise and utter his famous words, to read:

"Who will rid us of these meddlesome Christians?"

Would it work and his wish be granted?

It did last time.

That would certainly clean up these threads pretty nicely.

Best to you.

Hi, Jihadist,

"Thanks for the spelling correction. Are you sure?:)"

That's what my google references say.

Don't worry about the state of your Latin. It's more than 50 years since I studied it. I'm reduced to thinking "nil nisi bonum ..." when I go to the funerals of people I've known. Beyond that, nihil.

I wish you nil nisi optimum.

Norrie Hoyt

Thanks for the spelling correction. Are you sure?:)

I am sure I am not sure of my Latin spelling and grammar but charge into it anyway, as it is the newly approved international language to be used over and above Esperanto by Catholics. At least Latin was, and is, a real language, not artificially created like Esperanto.

And yes, even for living and widely use languages such as English, French and Arabic, I commit many spelling and grammatical errors in never ever going over my hastily typed posts to edit before hitting the send button. Even in my mother tongue. Rest assured I am more thorough in work related communications, reports etc.

One can easily lose a language if one don't have everyday ready access to reading materials as well as being among native speakers. No Roman Legonnaires ever set foot in Indonesia or Malaysia, sandal and all, saying, "Veni, vidi, vici". Or Roman senators in togas coming over saying, "Time Deum, cole regem".

Now, where can I find dictionaries, books, blogs, websites, Latin Cable Network with sci-fis, mysteries, dramas, sitcoms, news in Latin to brush up and practice Latin just as I still do for English, Arabic and French? It is hard enough to find French and Arabic speakers in Indonesia and Malaysia (except for tourists), much less Latin. And no, Herodotus never visited our region to write about it in his "Histories".

I will have to stay up nights to conjugate Latin verbs too. All this to know just what the Pope is saying, and what the Catholics are praying about. Especially since Pope Benedict has stated in the last few days that the other Christian churches are "wounded". One has to know what Pope Benedict thinks, has said, and will say on Jews, Muslims and Buddhists etc. Nil dictum quod non dictum prius?

Latin is the language of the Roman Empire. Latin is the language of the Holy Roman Empire. Neocon Holy Roman Empire bound by common language and beliefs?

Best regards as always
J

Robert
I think you may have hit upon what is wrong with the modern American mass -- maybe the order of worship and definitely the terrible music. It is rooted in no tradition deeper than the sway of pop culture (I almost said mass culture but didn't want to be confusing). It satisfies those for whom the Disney versions are the definitive forms of folklore, but to some of us it seems shallow. I might even say embarrassing.
In contrast, liturgy rooted in the sights and sounds of a traditional culture have power that goes deeper than whether or not we understand the words. Some of the most moving services I have attended have been in Spanish (which I understand, but poorly) and in Old Church Slavic (which I don't know at all).
By the way, nobody can beat the Russians for musical expression, at least in church.

Jihadist,

The answer to your latin question is "nothing" (:-).

But you really should brush up on your Latin - the correct spelling is "Ridentem".

As always, best wishes to you.

In re the Latin Mass:

Abusus non tollit usum

Professor Gillis,

The heart of religion is mystery.

Latin is mysterious; English is not.

"What the son wishes to forget, the grandson wishes to remember."

I am a Catholic by choice, my conversion never rooted out the spiritual boost I get from hearing the melodies and language of the Hebrew and Ladino hymns and liturgical services of my Sephardic Jewish youth. Most of the Hebrew and Ladino words now escape me. Sit me down with the lyrics, I'd be able to pick out about half the hebrew alphabet. But that does not mean it is they do not hold a spiritual power and do not bind me back to G-d (a latin scholar could tell you that is what religion does, is bind us back to G-d, after we have fallen away from Him.) As for the Catholic Liturgies, and I purposly use the plural, I get great spiritual comfort, encouragement, and nourishment from Liturgies in Latin, Slovonic, and Geez. I assist at mass in the old Latin Rite, in the Ukranian, Russian and Coptic Rites. While I have a limited working knowledge of Latin, and minimal in Russian, it is not so much the language that transports me as the entire mystical experience of participating in the mysteries of my adopted faith. The connection of giving praise to God in the same manner, with the same words, and melodies as centuries of Catholics have. It does not hurt that some of the melodies where borrowed from my Jewish forebearers. The English Modern rite, leaves me feeling unfed, but unlike the detractors of the Old rites, I would not wish to offer calumny against the rite or those attached to it. I have no special powers to see or judge their souls, to determine their spiritual health or fervor, it may work for some, but not all.

One of the things that attracted me to the Catholic faith, aside from Pope Pius XII's efforts which ended up saving my family from the ovens of the Shoah, was the diversity of worship within the framework of a unified Faith. As someone who lives in the present, and hopes to learn from the past, rather than consigning it to the scrap heap, I cherish the infrequent moments when I can hear the Mass using the older Latin Rites, be it the (now termed Tridentine) or the occasional Dominican, Norbertine, Carmelite or Ambrosian rite Latin Liturgies that have transported me spiritually to what Fr. Faber called, a little bit of heaven on Earth.

In union with the Pope, I hope for a restoration of the Latin Mass, not to supplant the "new" liturgy, but as an example of how the Church can be, as St. Paul said of himself, "All things to All people".

Athena

Ridentum dicere verum quid vetat?:)

Jihadus

Somewhere, my old Latin teacher, Mrs. G, is laughing hysterically at all of this. :D