All Comments (17)

Dear Jihadist -

Yes, we non-believers have fears, but they're not the imaginary eternal fears of the religionists. We have the normal human fears and concerns - paying the mortgage, bringing up our kids, etc.

You're also correct that most non-believers are content to quote Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett et al to rebut the religionists. That's because their arguments are the same sound arguments that have been advanced for centuries. Why change the answer if it's the right answer? There's another reason to quote contemporary writers, and that's because they are contemporary. Anyone interested in further exploring their writings has easy access to their works because they're all on the best-seller lists. The authors I mentioned are also all over the TV these days. It only makes sense to send religionists to these easily found sources, as opposed to the works of Bertrand Russell and others.

BTW - you are correct in saying that we non believers are providing rather limited responses here. But that's the fault of the forum itself, isn't it? Were this forum opened up to non-religious philosophies and the sciences, then we'd have more material to deal with and the conversation could move beyond the stale realm of religion. But that's not what this blog is about, so the incense continues to smolder, barely covering the stench of religion's idiocies.

See ya later.

Hello Mr. Mark

I do enjoy your posts. First time I'm having a wee fun with you here actually.

You asked : "do you believe that your religion allows you to doubt to the point where you no longer believe your religion to be true? My guess would be "no." From your previous response, I get the feeling that you are an extremely fearful person."

What? Non-believers don't have any fears? No fears at all? They all do seem to insist too, too much that they are free from belief and fear etc. That once they stop believing in God, and are not part of organised religion or membership in a church, they lost all fear of everything. Really?

Surely it is apparent in many posts from atheists in On Faith that they certainly fear believers and their excesses? That they fear for their rights, injustice, tyranny, oppression, bigotry. They fear Osama, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, the Vatican. They fear Islam and Muslims. They fear the composition of Supreme Court chief justices etc. The list is too long.

Do I have fears? Yes. Man's eternal capacity and tendency to resort to armed conflicts when they disagree or when they want to control other peoples and lands. Man who never learn, who constantly want to prove they are the biggest, baddest kid on the block etc. Nothing to fear about God, heaven or hell because of fire and brimstone or eternal damnation. Man is what should worry us here, now and in future surely.

Good for you not to be fearful of the the boogeyman I was putting on - demon, devil, satan etc are from Hollywood movies. I have not even begun to go into exorcisms, and incessantly quoted by some atheists as the boogeymen believers are supposedly afraid of, but more reflective of their own fears perhaps.

As for prayers, sorry, don't flatter yourself. If you don't care for heaven and hell or believe in God, why in the world would I ever want to bother? Rest assured I'll never pray for your salvation or your soul. That's for the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwells.

Seems to be a very laudable Christian thing to do to pray for strangers. At least Canyon Shearer and Peter Huff was kind enough to pray for me to see the light and be saved through Christ for my eternal salvation.

As for praying for world peace, end of Iraq war, the resignation of Bush and Cheney etc and such. Rubbish. You prayed and Voila! There's peace on earth without working for it?

And Bush and Cheney to resign just by us praying? It's a miracle! More likely, they'll pray they will not have to resign.

So, do I take it that as atheists don't pray for strength and patience for what they want to do, can I take it atheists read and quote all those Enlightenment writers and then get into action for peace, freedom, fraternity etc? If they ever really do that.

Come on Mr. Mark, surely atheists don't assume they know and understand everything once they stop believing in God, or to be ad hoc shrinks. Why, most can barely quote anything beyond what is said by Einstein, Dawkins, Hitchens here in On Faith. Quite painful for me to read how some insist they are "humanists" when it is really unnecessary.

By the way, I'm not a Mr.

Best regards and all the best.

J

Yoyo

Hello. I'm fine. I'm always having a bit of a wee fun in On Faith threads giving a believer's take on everything. And you too as a non-believer:)

And so..... are we asking God to clean up the mess man created and deal with the natural and man-made disasters such as tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, conflicts, wars? Surely God is not our servant? We have free will so we all have to deal with it -from believe to non-believe, from personal responsibility to community responsibility.

Surely we don't expect God to swoop down to organise humanitarian assistance in disaster-wrecked areas? Or to be a mediator and conflict resolution expert in strife torn areas? God made Adam Its vice regent on earth. Clear as a bell the descendants of Adam, a.k.a. man a.k.a. a bipedal carbon-based specie, as temporary tenants of the earth it populated, is both master and tenant of this world. And to be held accountable for it.

Having given that thumbnail religious perspective on man, God, the world and areas of responsibility for man as put in easy to understand basic code of conduct such the 10 Commandements so we will be civil with one another with others so we won't get into personal conflicts and interstate conflicts,
let us now look at God or no God. Not a question of whether God is nice or cruel anymore. Those are human traits.

So, there is no supernatural God. Perhaps then, we should look at the meganatural entity starting creation in the heavens and the earth.

But scientists (astronomers, astrophysicists) believe it all begun with what they call a "singularity", that great ball, or little fireball (not quite akin to the Burning Bush that irritates BGone as a supposed manifestation of God talking to Moses) from where the universe as we know it, but so much to know still, came into being.

This "singularity", a cosmic seed, exploded and Voila! the Big Bang - then the expanding universe with billions upon billions of galaxies with billions upon billions of stars within each galaxy, with billions upon billions of planets revolving around the stars and other space debris like asteroids.

Only problem is, scientists don't know yet how the "singularity" came into being, or why, or what started it all. It all begun some 12 to 15 billion years ago. So scientists estimated.

We are all, from suns to planets to asteroids, stardust of the universe from that "singularity".

As God in the Quran was explicit that It created man and all in heavens and earth from a seed, a germ, let me go out there to find the "singularity" and who created it.

There's no logic in something like a "singularity", the Big Bang and such, that came into being for no reason. A pure accident? A fluke? Only knowing the effect, but not the cause?

Scottie, beam me up.
Warp speed 10 Mr. Sulu.

...... To boldly go where no man have gone before - into the wormhole to the blackhole. From this universe to parallel, alternate universes to find the ultimate source of creation.

But wait, we have barely gone beyond the Solar System physically. We don't even know Uranus has 21 moons instead of 5 before Voyager 2 pass by.

Too, too bad man is so limited in mental capacity and physical capability to go out there and see the breath and realm of the universe started by the "singularity" that I prefer think is caused and created by an entity call God.

With the whole universe out there, to assume that planet earth and man deserve special attention, well, we are one of the myriad beings of creation left to fend for ourself in this bit of a middling galaxy among untold number of galaxies.
After all, God stated in the Qur'an that It also created beings from fire and light. Could be anything alive in the universe from atoms to anti-matter to carbon to dark energy to DNA to electron to helium to hydorgen to lithium to photons to quarks and everything that resulted from the seed, the germ of those.

Best regards as always
J

Dear Mr J:

Sorry, but your threats of eternal boogeymen don't scare me. As you pray for me tonight, you'll be talking to yourself. There's no one listening but you. Think about it.

If you believe that prayer has some power, why waste it on me? Why not pray for world peace, the end of the war in Iraq, or that bush, cheney and the lot would resign immediately and give this country a chance to return to sanity?

Maybe you could answer my question: do you believe that your religion allows you to doubt to the point where you no longer believe your religion to be true? My guess would be "no." From your previous response, I get the feeling that you are an extremely fearful person.

I hope things work out for you.

Dear Jihadist -

How correct you are to point out that our gods all seem to have all-too human qualities, even down to their physical appearance.

While I can understand the human need to define the infinite in finite terms, I am always amused when the religionists take umbrage when one attacks that finite description. They seem very concerned that god have a right hand and a left hand, don't they?

I've always enjoyed the image of god as he appears on South Park. Talk about gong the other way!

I wonder how many Xians would stay with their faith if their mental image of Jesus' physical appearance looked less like that seen in a painting by Warner Sallman and a lot more like a photograph of Jerry Stiller.

Uccer

With all due respect;

You suggest I open my heart to God and see
God's work and creation all around me.
What does that mean?
Open my heart to God.....?
You really mean, open my mind to God.
Well that's not easy Uccer.
You might just as well ask me to open my mind
to Aphrodite or Batman or Kermit the frog.
I am unable to open my mind to any of these characters of fiction,
if opening my mind means to believe they actually exist.
How can people do that? How can people passively
say "OK,I'll believe in a skygod if you tell me I should."
That is ridiculous Uccer.
Now,if you had got me when I was a kid,and told me
about your God,and sent me to a faith school,
and a church where they reinforced what you were telling me,
then yes,today I would probably be a christian believer,
maybe even a pastor.Who knows?
And if I'd been born in Utah,of Mormon parents,
I might be a Mormon now,and if I'd been
born in Pakistan I might be praying 5 times a day
facing Mecca.
I have opened my mind to reality Uccer,
and it looks to me that God is make believe.
bye4now.

Yoyo,

"Is that all he does"?

First, that's doing a great deal. If you would open your heart to God, you would see God's work and creation all around you. If a large number of people (say, all Christians) would open their hearts to God, we could end most human misery and suffering.

Back to your question, well no, God created everything in the universe for starters.

And yes, I agree that Mother Teresa was wise to doubt. Christianity should not be incompatible with science, reason, and questioning and those who say it should are either concerned with their own power or insecure in their faith.

Uccer;

Is that all he does?
He might just as well be imaginary.
Mother Teresa was wise to doubt.
O that He were real!

Yoyo,

You said of God, "If he was real,he would DO something.Wouldn't he?"

The irony here is this is a thread on Mother Teresa. God does do something. He gives people like Mother Teresa the courage and strength to do something to make the world a better place!

Jihadist;

How you doing?

I think what I was saying Jihadist,was that atheism is not a belief system. It's not a belief that one would cling to,like one might cling to religion.
For example,I don't believe in astrology.Others swear by astrology,even live by it.
Regarding astrology,I am an atheist.
But astrology is not the danger that religion would seem to be,because these days,most people don't take astrology so seriously.
But religion is a force.And since 9/11 I feel it should be challenged before we all get blown up.
Deep down,in my heart,as religious people like to say,deep down I believe there is no supernatural world,and no god.
In your earlier post,above,you mention that the rich and comfortable don't need God. The poor need God,you say,they have noone else to turn to.
I know.I know only too well.
But that doesn't mean that it follows that there is a god.
Jihad,it would be nice if there was a god.
Maybe then we wouldn't have tsunamis,and earthquakes,and deformed children and dreadful diseases. Maybe he would do something about Darfur,and Bangladesh,and Somalia and.....and..
everywhere else that he would be needed,if he existed. Its a beautiful dream.
This imaginary god does nothing.Just nothing.
If he was real,he would DO something.Wouldn't he?
Keep your chin up,Jihad.Maybe you're right and I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

Yoyo

In Sam Harris's thread on Mother Teresa, in one of your posts, you stated that many believers believe than atheism is a "belief" and you countered that it is not.

Let us see some possibiliities why believers would think that.

On belief of God :

Chistian - I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Trinity of God)

Muslim - I believe there is no God, but God.

Atheist - I believe there is no God.

Atheists, like the proseletizing believers or the missionary-minded ones, do promote incessantly on why there is no God as enthusiastically as to why there is a God by believers.

Atheists also quote incessantly from the book of Richard (Dawkins), the book of Christopher (Hitchens) and Sam (Harris) among others as believers would for scriptures from the Bible.

Atheists also have their own prophets like Albert Einstein whom they venerated and whom they quoted too for peals of wisdom etc.

Tenets of beliefs :

The basic tenets of beliefs that atheists seem to have faith in are:

- logic and reason

- proof of everything

Of course there are other tenets of atheism that I don't include here, and which both atheists and believers have deduced.

Of course believers still do tend to associate atheism with its most infamous exponents and practitioners - Marxism/communism and its various permutations such as Pol Potism, Leninism and Maoism.

Just as it is hard to get believers not to associate atheism with the likes of Mao, Pol Pot, it is difficult for atheists not to associate believers with God/s with Pat Robertson, Osama and to associate all atrocities committed by men against fellow men with their godlessness or Godliness - not their personal cruelty, greed, lust for power and control over men etc.

In both cases, man's personal responsibilities (ethics, values, respect for fellow humans and their rights) in perpetrating such atrocities,(including the political, economical and social state of societies that makes it possible) is rarely and objectively highlighted, but to ascribe them to their belief or non-belief - religious and/or ideological.

Best regards as ever
J

Mr. Mark

Good to see you. Welcome back.

I believe God is a Caucasian with blue eyes, blond hair and a white beard.

I believe angels looks like the ones as painted by Boticelli.

I believe Satan has horns, blood-shot eyes, hoofed feet, a tail and went around singing contracts with anyone willing to sell their soul to him.

I believe God is both a teddy bear and heated warm and fuzzy blanket.

I am a non-paying, non-member of the Flat Earth Society.

I am happily both stupid and very afraid of the fire and brimstone of hell. Ignorance is bliss.

I have never heard of Enlightenment. Voltaire who?

I can make generalised statements about believers and non-believers as well as anyone too:

- The rich and powerful and don't care for God. They think they are God.

- The poor need God. They have no one to turn to in their sufferings and miseries.

- The middle class indulged in talking about God -its existence or otherwise.

And why talk about God in human terms, as in having a Mum and Dad? Why measure everything we know in our puny human terms in a universe that we barely comprehend and yet to understand on creation and origin? We have not inhabit the moon even as yet. Just a very few manned visits to collect rocks and take some photos from the moon of the earth.

Thank you and best regards
J

Really, if planet earth only had a few, say 1000 different species WITHOUT an egg being necessary for reproduction I too would say that God doesn't exist. But we are talking about millions of species that use the egg to survive. It takes more faith to believe in a lie than the truth of God and His Christ.

Mr Mark
Good comments.I agree with you.
Isn't it interesting that the faithful love to hang the
"hate" label on you,if the way you see things differs
from their religious way of seeing things.
It seems to be the basic knee-jerk reaction,
in lieu of intelligent discussion.
It's as if the religious are terrified that someone might take away
their teddy bear God,and the fantasy of a heavenly
after-life,and leave them with nothing;
nothing but reality.

Doubt in the existence of the old white bearded sky god is the only sensible position to take,outside of actually dismissing the whole notion as completely ridiculous. In fact one would have to be crazy NOT
to doubt such an unlikely tale,which presents more difficulties than it solves.(Like did God have a mom and dad?)
To imagine is to be human.And out of fear we imagined up a God to give us comfort, and an after life to take away the fear of death.

Mr Colson,

I think you raise an excellent point here. In prosperity it easy to believe in God, but are we really trusting Him if we don't move out of our comfort zones. When we do move out; I think doubt is a natural response because we are no longer trusting in ourselves. This is where I think the beauty of suffering shines; it separates the wheat from the chaff. It is those who persevere through the worst of things that have really placed their trust in Christ.

Mr Mark
Your hatred for anything Christian is sad to watch. You seem to gravitate to Christian post and Hijack them to promote your religious view. Tonight I will pray for you that Jesus might have mercy on your soul. Mark, you will not always be able to hide behind your non-religious religion nor will your non-faith faith always support you. Your maker is no fool and his patience is not with out end; you will have to give an account. Your arguments are easily refuted by men; how much more by the one who made your mind? Praying for you-
Mr J

Religious doubts - like religious faith - are worthless as guides to true enlightenment for the simple fact that the religious only allow doubts about one's beliefs to the extent that such doubt doesn't lead to non-belief.

In this way, religion cuts itself off from the rest of human existence and experience, especially the human intellect. For centuries, one could believe that the Earth was flat. Then, science proved that the word was a sphere. To aver today that the Earth is flat is to espouse idiocy. Yet, that is exactly what the faithful do when they draw the line on doubt, allowing it to gaze over the precipice of enlightenment but to never leap the chasm to truth.

Religious doubt is as much a chimera as is religious free will. Neither concept allows but one "correct" answer, and that answer is itself based in stupidity and fear.