Charles W. "Chuck" Colson is founder of Prison Fellowship, a Christian outreach ministry to the prison population of this country, as well as to ex-prisoners and crime victims. The "On Faith" panelist's daily radio commentary, BreakPoint, is aired daily on over a 1,000 radio outlets nationwide. Colson also is a syndicated columnist, lawyer, and author of 25 books, most recently The Faith (2008). He served as special counsel to the late President Richard M. Nixon (1969-73). After pleading guilty to a Watergate-related charge of obstruction of justice in 1974, Colson served seven months of a one to three-year federal prison sentence. His 1973 Christian conversion was documented in the internationally best-selling book and film, Born Again. He founded Prison Fellowship in 1976. In 1993, Colson was awarded the Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion and donated the $1 million prize to Prison Fellowship. In the last 28 years, Colson has visited more than 600 prisons in 40 countries and, with the help of nearly 50,000 volunteers, has built Prison Fellowship into the world's largest prison outreach, serving the spiritual and practical needs of prisoners in 93 countries including the U.S.
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Charles W. "Chuck" Colson
Founder, Prison Fellowship ministry
Charles W. "Chuck" Colson is founder of Prison Fellowship, a Christian outreach ministry to the prison population of this country, as well as to ex-prisoners and crime victims.
The "On Faith" panelist's daily radio commentary, BreakPoint, is aired daily on over a 1,000 radio outlets nationwide.
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This is a poorly written article, shame on washington post for allowing such a corrupt man to make such slanderous and ignorant statements. Im sure if the words Pagan were replaced with jew or black, the reaction would be much worse.
Dear Mr. Colson,
You have gotten yourself into a lot of trouble and generated an impressive array of hostile response. As your brother in the Lord I certainly understand and sympathize with a desire to see only those with the correct Biblical world view ministering to anyone's spiritual needs, or serving in high political office. None of these angry pagan responses in this list have made me feel that any of them might be more morally qualified.
Unfortunately, I suppose that to love them we must allow them to have their say. The one who cited Madison's quote about chaplains in Congress did make the point well I think.
The Church has learned some hard lessons about the uselessness and impropriety of burning people at the stake. Fortunately I believe it is also the Church itself that repented of that sin. History doesn't teach me that pagans in any way compelled the Church to leave them alone. I think it was the Church that developed the political doctrine of the freedom of speech as a result of the failure of religious persecution to bear good fruit.
On tolerance, of course each proponent of a different faith currently believes that his faith is legitimate and all others are false. Most are in fact what they are by birth and comfortable with being uncritical about their views. Or some are uncomfortable with that in which they were born and seek a "better" way, most finding that "better" way in some other false religion that "feels" more right than that which they leave behind. Christianity is the hardest faith to believe in. It is the most opposite of what humans naturally want to believe. That is strong evidence that it comes from God.
Mr. Colson, you and I know that it is only the Truth that will set them free. And only some are good soil that responds to the the true voice of God. Let them call us bigots. They are blind. And I am well aware that more angry tirades will come in response to my way of seeing things. Few will take up the challenge to seriously examine. It is easier to hurl insults than to truly defend a false faith.
Martha Lydick, president Friends of the Laguna Beach Library:
First, thank you so much for your past support. Because of friends like you we painted the library and relandscaped the grounds. Now, we must replace the obsolete and energy wasting lighting in the library for a cost between $75,000 and $92,000 so we are busy raising funds. The silent auction of autographed at our annual dinner meeting, October 25 this year, has been a great success. We would be so grateful if you would contribute a copy of your books. Please mail to Martha Lydick, 1284 Coronado Drive, Laguna Beach, CA 92651
"It is debatable whether paganism is a religion, per say."
It's not "A" Religion, it's a Group of Religions. Just like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all Arab Religions (Meaning they Originate from the Middle East), and Hinduism and Buddhism are Dharmic Religions, thus proving Wicca and all other Pagan Religions are real Religions.
"Without self restraint, free governments cannot succeed."
"our Constitution was made only for moral and religious people."
Have you taking a good look at Wicca. Although the Wiccan Reade dose not have "Commandments" from a God that dosn't mean they don't have Morals. Most Wiccans are just about perhaps even more Moral than Most Christians, and other the Pagan Religions are the same.
Mr. Colson, perhaps before you denegrate a spiritual path you should learn something about it. I think the human sacrifice thing went out with Pagans long before it went out with Christians. Pagans also used it as punishment for criminals, but usually the criminals we chose had actually committed a crime.
However, getting back to the current age, I think your fear shows quite brightly in all your bigotry. Paganism has been growing largely in part for the fundamentalist attitudes and strict adherance to long outdated rules and restrictions that keep people from being human. We don't pressure our folks to fork over 10% of their income to go into the pockets of a well fed heirarchy or to build temples to our Gods. Doesn't the Bible say something about not worshipping idols? Yet, its quite all right to cover the domes of churches with gold? How many hungry children could the money paying for that gold feed?
We have morals and values just as everyone else has. To equate Paganism with a lack of morals truly shows your ingnorance. However, Pagans put thought into what they believe and do not believe. Therefore, we try to live by our morals and values. I have been active in my community and in politics. My spirituallity is very strong and supports all that I do. It also supports what I choose to oppose. Yet, I do not feel the need to shove my religion down anyone else's throat. I am quite able to work along side a Christian, or anyone else not of my spiritual path, to get outdated and small minded folk like yourself out of our Nation's government offices. I think a Pagan would make an excellent politician. It would be nice to have someone who considers the long term effects of their actions, and doesn't do solely what is in their own personal best interests.
Believe it or not, your God is not the only God. And I for one am really tired of folk like you who insist he is. Perhaps if you talked to a Pagan, and treated them with a modicum of respect you wouldn't be living in such ignorance. Poke your head out of that box you're living in. Its truly beautiful out here in the real world with real people!
I work with Wiccans, pagans, and members of other similar religious persuasions within the Ohio prison system. Not long ago, I spoke with Steven T. McFarland, Office of the deputy Attorney General, United States of America. He seemed to be clear that government’s reason for supporting any religion within the prison population is because doing so decreases recidivism. Like Christian, Muslim, Jewish, and other offenders; Wiccan and pagan rapists are less likely to rape again if they have spiritual mentoring while in prison. Like Christian, Muslim, Jewish and other offenders Wiccan and pagan murders are less likely to murder again if they have spiritual mentoring while in prison. I work with the prison system because I do not want my children to be raped, murdered, or suffer other violent crimes. Despite the fact that George W. Bush seems to agree with you on the validity / lack of validity of Wicca as a religion, he supports programs such as the one I am involved in because he feels the same way about his twins; he does not want to see them raped, murdered or fall victim to violent crime. It saddens me that a religious leader such as you would not put children ahead of a religious agenda.
If that is not a sufficient reason to involve Wiccans, pagans, and members of other similar religious persuasions in the programs and staff of our prison system; consider the issue of security. Christianity is not the only religion, which has radical groups and teachings that might present a security risk within the prison population. Christianity is not the only religion with factions, which promote racism, violence and hate. As I am sure you are aware, the country is largely concerned with a threat from radical Islam. How do you propose a prison system determines what literature and groups promote radical Islam and thus represent a security risk with in our prison? Did you know that there is a Wiccan organization, which has promoted the molestation, intoxication, and rape of children in the name of Wicca? Did you know that one of the leaders of Seax Wicca seems to promote violent hatred of homosexuals?
Please consider the pedophilic literature, which was previously allowed into the Ohio prison system: The Witches Bible by Gavin and Yvonne Frost clearly promotes the molestation, intoxication, and rape of children in the name of Wicca. It does not seem to be the type of literature prisons should allow to reach their sexual offenders now does it? (http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/defrost-please-read/). However, as you have stated so firmly, you see no reason to involve clergy from religions, which are with knowledge of such literature. As you have stated, you see no reason to hire qualified individuals who might prevent such literature from being present among the sex offenders in our prison system.
Personal agendas to promote only Christianity is responsible for increased recidivism and for keeping the prison system in the dark concerning security threats presented by radical Wiccan, heathen, and pagan organizations.
A god, any god, who would insist that his word is more important than protecting children is not a god worthy of my praise.
"There are tenets of their belief that, I think, are incompatible with the requirements of American democratic governance."
And what pray tell would those tenets be? Love of self as Temple? Love of others as Temple? Tolerance of those who are, in any way, different? Belief in a Divine? (A rose is still a rose) Belief in self empowerment? Respect for our environment? Respect for home, family, Country?
As a member of the military, I can assure you that We have as much, if not more, Love for our country and the principles it was founded on, among them freedom from religious persecution. Denying is a form of persecution. How moral of you...
I will be the first to say that there are bad apples in my bunch. Are You as willing to acknowledge your Christian bad apples?
"There are tenets of their belief that, I think, are incompatible with the requirements of American democratic governance."
And what pray tell would those tenets be? Love of self as Temple? Love of others as Temple? Tolerance of those who are, in any way, different? Belief in a Divine? (A rose is still a rose) Belief in self empowerment? Respect for our environment? Respect for home, family, Country?
As a member of the military, I can assure you that We have as much, if not more, Love for our country and the principles it was founded on, among them freedom from religious persecution. Denying is a form of persecution. How moral of you...
I will be the first to say that there are bad apples in my bunch. Are You as willing to acknowledge your Christian bad apples?
So, let me get this straight, Mr. Colson. Ministry is only permissible for "mainline" faiths - that is, numbers trump belief, and if your particular faith falls below some arbitrary cutoff, tough luck.
Although you claim not to be very knowledgeable about paganism and Wicca - a claim which I am readily willing to believe - you state with some air of authority that these faiths provide little basis for self-restraint or for morality.
Let's be very clear about your statements. You have basically just branded all U.S. citizens who happen to follow a pagan or Wiccan path as enemies of democracy.
Where exactly do you get off with this viewpoint?
Are only Christians of your particular stripe welcome in the government, and the society, you envision for the USA?
Is the question of whether YOU would support a pagan or Wiccan candidate for any elected office really so important to this discussion?
The crux of the matter, Mr. Colson, is that you are, at some basic level, scared of anything that isn't in line with what you already believe; terrified of any point of view that doesn't already line up with what you feel is valid; prepared to demonize anything - anything at ALL - that you neither fully understand or subscribe to.
America was founded on religious freedom for everybody, Mr. Colson...not just for the people you agree with. Get used to it. Because it's about to reclaimed from zealots like yourself.
Ok, so... you're discounting our beliefs? What makes you think that Christianity is the truth? Do you know that normal men wrote the bible, and that it was edited by others than the apostles? Do you have any proof that Wiccanism has done any harm? No, you can only say you're not selling as many bibles... poor you. I can say that Christianity started the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, all because of the self-serving Christian leaders. Besides, Wicca is based off the Earth religions, from before anyone ever heard of Jesus. You act as if you know anything about Wicca, but do you? Do you even realize we don't believe in Satan? So, we don't worship Satan. Your bible preaches tolerance, and to "love thy neighbor." Before you try to be a misinformed crusader, read your bible. All you guys do is brain-wash people into funding your missions. We don't believe in "spreading the gospel." If you are meant to learn more about the Goddess, you will. Instead of letting the Bible brain-wash you, think for yourself, use your own instincts. To every other Wiccan that is offended by this man, may the Goddess watch over you.
Geez Chuck! You admit you know little about Paganism, yet you have enough of an opinion to put into print. When I was in elementary school, a teach once taught us to put our minds in gear BEFORE opening our mouths. Sound advice, if you ask me. Unfortunately, not everyone does that, as is evident by your statements. Now that we know you have an opinion, why don't you take it a step further, and make it an EDUCATED one. Do some research. Learn what it is you wish to talk about before you make such bold statements, knowing nothing about the subject. Lincoln once said "Tis better to remain silence, and be thought a fool, that to open one's mouth, and remove all doubt".
How can a grown man such as yourself, be so irresponsible as to give a public opinion about other religions, when you know nothing about them?
Remember, your Jesus Christ was considered a "cult" leader a couple thousand years ago. All religions, at some point in time, have been "cult" religions. Who ever said being mainstream meant being right? I challenge you to study what you talk about. Research Pagan religions before you put them down. And I'm not talking about research from Christian based information. Use real data, and not propaganda. There are plenty of educated and reputable works to learn from, if you look outside your own small world.
I don't know what is more disappointing, the fact that you don't know what you're talking about, or the fact that someone gave you that much space to print your unlearned and obviously biased opinion.
"The more difficult question is whether I would vote for a pagan for public office. The answer is that on one hand I fully respect the fact that there should be no religious test for public office; on the other hand, I would have great difficulty supporting an explicit Wiccan or pagan for high public office. There are tenets of their belief that, I think, are incompatible with the requirements of American democratic governance.
Lest this sound discriminatory, I think it is very clear from reading the writings of our founding fathers that a sound adherence to the values of the Judeo-Christian tradition—or at the very least, deism—was essential as a basis of the moral law that would sustain a free society."
Well, I quoted what you said, now let me quote a few others.........
Here's some quotes from the Founding Fathers of this country that I ran across today. Nice to see the Founding Fathers I so love for their ideas of freedom felt the same way I do about religion:
Thomas Jefferson: "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man"
Benjamin Franklin: "Lighthouses are more useful than churches"
A 1796 treaty signed by John Adams declares, "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"; Adams also said, "this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it"
Tons of people (more than have read) have posted replied, and sadly, like my post, it will fall on blind eyes and deaf ears, but like them, I want to voice my opinion.
"The more difficult question is whether I would vote for a pagan for public office. The answer is that on one hand I fully respect the fact that there should be no religious test for public office; on the other hand, I would have great difficulty supporting an explicit Wiccan or pagan for high public office. There are tenets of their belief that, I think, are incompatible with the requirements of American democratic governance.
Lest this sound discriminatory, I think it is very clear from reading the writings of our founding fathers that a sound adherence to the values of the Judeo-Christian tradition—or at the very least, deism—was essential as a basis of the moral law that would sustain a free society."
Well, I quoted what you said, now let me quote a few others.........
Here's some quotes from the Founding Fathers of this country that I ran across today. Nice to see the Founding Fathers I so love for their ideas of freedom felt the same way I do about religion:
Thomas Jefferson: "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man"
Benjamin Franklin: "Lighthouses are more useful than churches"
A 1796 treaty signed by John Adams declares, "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"; Adams also said, "this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it"
Tons of people (more than have read) have posted replied, and sadly, like my post, it will fall on blind eyes and deaf ears, but like them, I want to voice my opinion.
Wow! Another mainstream fanatical bigot... I'm a former Marine, current Police Officer, Ordained Minister and guess what I AM PAGAN!!!!! I just shake my head sometimes and reaffirm my Pagan beliefs and sense of duty and tell myself "yes" I will and always will defend and protect all persons!" Even the ignorant!!
Semper Fi to 1st Lt. Mayer anyway......
P.S. There are more pagan Marines than you think my friend....
Does The Pagan Temple look real enough for you. The WORLD was Pagan except the Hebrews before Christ. How can you say it is not a religion? Even the supreme court has said that it is.
All the little sects of Christians must not be real religions then correct? By your way of thinking this is true. Also by your way of thinking I should never vote for any Christian. Is this what this country has come to? How sad. How truly sad.
You seek to perpetuate and belittle those fellow Americans experiencing God in their way. How can you honestly call yourself a man of faith? A man of faith would reserve judgement, yet here you spout about what you think you know about Pagans.
I have many many Christian friends. ALL of which reserved judgement about me and my family. All are kind and gracious. Perhaps you should take a cue from your brethren. Your God does not like pride. Stating that another's belief is non-existent just because it isn't the same as yours is arrogance, ignorance, and pride mixed. Just because you don't comprehend it to be a religion, doesn't mean it isn't so. So I guess Hinduism isn't a religion or Buddhism. They are just what was around before Christ as well.
Please hold your tongue until you know what exactly you are talking about.
Paganplace
Be assured that I have never doubted your mastery of the written word. I just occasionally feel that I must put a check on usage that might muddle the understanding of some who are less precise in their diction. I trust you to mean what you write...
"'d have to agree that eclecticism (that's the word, by the way, sorry to revert to my reality as a teacher of writing) would be an advantage. These chaplains minister to a diverse community in the US military. Wiccans and other Pagans would indeed seem to have a head start..."
Thanks, and, yes, eclecticism is 'the' word, I know, I said, 'Eclecticness' (in quotes,) because 'the' word doesn't quite fit in the sense I meant.
It implies in many ways that Paganism insists everyone must be eclectic. :) I think it's just something about us which happens. :)
maybe you need to read history again, here I will give you some information. Please read this and learn.. cause your ignorance shows what a fool you really are.
No man [should] be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor [should he] be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor ... otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief ... All men [should] be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and ... the same [should] in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
Thomas Jefferson; Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the the most lovely benevolence, and others, again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, therefore, the dross; restore to him the former and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, the roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus.
Thomas Jefferson; letter to William Short, 1820
Christianity ... (has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ... Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.
Thomas Jefferson
have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded upon fables and mythologies. The Christian God is a being of terrific character – cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust ...
Thomas Jefferson
The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves ... these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Thomas Jefferson
The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.
Thomas Jefferson
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Thomas Jefferson; Notes on Virginia, 1782
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
Thomas Jefferson ; letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
Thomas Jefferson; letter to Dr Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them …
Thomas Jefferson; letter to Horatio G Spafford, March 17, 1814
OH by the way.. the most important part you need to remember since its in our constitution :
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
Thomas Jefferson; letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT, January 1, 1802
Human sacrifice? Sounds like stuff I read in Sunday school about what Christians do to non believers. Salem Witch Trials, Inquisition, Holy Wars, etc…
Cult…? Christianity does classify as a cult…you do realize this right?
What if no one listened to Jesus when he was around? No Bible was ever written. No 10 commandments (which btw if they were so valuable where the heck are they?). What religion do you think you would be right now? Probably just another heathen Pagan without any structured religion. I mean it would be absolutely horrible to not have someone telling you how to worship, when or worship, or holding their hands out for your last dollar. I am sure you would not know what to do with yourself.
There should be no religious tests…EVER for anyone. Is that not what we established the USA for? For freedom of persecution and religious freedom? And why should a soldier not be recognized or honored in life or death due to his/her religion beliefs? How can you, or anyone, who is suppose to love and accept everyone (according to your written word – The Bible) turn down someone for help or even tolerance while serving this country and fighting for YOUR freedoms. Chaplains do not have to follow the religion but just to be there and know something about it. Are you scared that more and more Christians may convert once they learn of Wicca/Paganism and what it is really about?
In respect sir, I think you are confusing John Adams’s word “religious” with “Christianity.” He does not use the word Christian instead he uses the word “religion” which if you get out your dictionary or can look it up online…Wiki states that “A religion is a set of beliefs and practices generally held by a community, involving adherence to codified beliefs and rituals and study of ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith an mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.” I don’t think that “religion” just covers Christianity. Reading between the lines too much leads one to ignorance and self diluted thoughts of righteousness.
If you look back on history…and even in your Bible, there are tons of examples of morality but there are also loads of inhumane acts against people and animals all in the name of “God.” There has been more bloodshed over religious persecution than any war we have ever experienced combined. How does morality fit into that? Does burning a girl at the stake because she owned a cat an example of morality? Maybe something a little more “present day:” Gay rights? Christians turn away gays from the church, even turning away a son or daughter. But doesn’t your Bible say to love everyone and that it is not your place to judge anyone? Religion with stipulations? Or do you just pick and choose what do believe in and when to believe in it? What examples are you basing your ideas of “indispensable supports” on anyway?
Over all…Paganism/Wicca is not a structured religion like Christianity but we also don’t have the violent history either. It is true that there are some examples of violent non-humane rituals but they very rare and very very few cultures that practice human sacrifice especially in present day. I believe we as a whole have more morals than Christianity and Paganism/Wicca is based off a much older religion.
Before you go criticizing Paganism/Wicca maybe you should read what the basis of what Wicca is. We are not out to control or harm anyone or anything. Most sects have a standard of “harm none.” This means in thought or in act. We are not suppose to judge anyone because they are not of the same religion. Can a Christian or even you, yourself say that?
It is my belief that it is minds like yours that are holding this country back and keeping its people repressed. Forgive us that do not follow your lead or your path.
You are correct. I am so glad that our founding fathers did not have to deal with today's religious right. I think that very few (if any) of them would have been elected. They would be considered WAY too liberal and open-minded.
What a shame our country has regressed so much. GWB could not have made 4th string Waterboy at the 1st Continental Congress.
-Episcopal minister Bird Wilson of Albany, New York, protested in October 1831: "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."
-Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by a pastor or priest.
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."-Thomas Paine
In fact, if you look deeply, many of the key figures of the body of "Founding Fathers" made several comments (in journals, in letters, etc.) hostile to either the churches of Christianity or else religion itself.
The one concept that anyone can certainly claim as fact about the founding fathers is that they believed in liberty and despised tyranny. No where does any one of these most-notable "Founding Father" figures profess that ours is or was ever meant to be a Christian Nation (note the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11) or that the values they professed were done so because of any belief of theirs in a specifically Judeo-Christian Deity.
"...Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry; that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which in common with his fellow-citizens he has a natural right; that it tends only to corrupt the principles of that religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments, those who will externally profess and conform to it..."
"...To suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion, and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency, is a dangerous fallacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment, and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own..."
"[Sec. 2] Be it enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
"[Sec. 3] And though we well know that this assembly elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding assemblies, constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act to be irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare, that the rights hereby asserted are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present, or to narrow its operation, such act shall be an infringement of natural right."
Some Christian Fundamentalists (or ANY Fundamenatlists of any religion for that matter)just can't help how they think or what they say.
The light of reason and intelligence has been extinguished by literal brainwashing, from birth or from choice (usually because of some severe personal crisis that religion seemed to solve). The dogma they subscribe to prevents any serious open inquiry into what they beleive because to doubt is to sin. Fundamentalists will rationalize, bad mouth, or even outright lie about anything that they feel casts a doubt on thier personal religious view (i.e.,Evolution, Biology, Geology, Anthropology, etc..).
Why do they lose all rationality? Simply put from a psychological viewpoint, Fundamentalists MUST do this to protect their fragile world view.
Fundamentalists suffer from a massive personal insecurity, and use a religion as a shield and security blanket so that the reality of who they are does not have to be dealt with.
But it doesn't stop there.
Real foaming at the mouth Fundamentalists have an overwhelming emotional need to assert thier religion is the ONLY true religion. Any other religion is wrong, of the Devil, (place name of your choice here). Therefor, no other religion can be respected or tolerated.
Other religions MUST be kept in the 2nd class to prevent them from gaining political/legal legitimacy.
This attitude stems from the Fundamentalists own insecurities and emotional immaturity (i.e.,"WE are the Majority, so that makes us the RIGHT ones!" style of thinking.)
Fundamentalists just can't treat other religions with fairness, dignity, or respect.
THAT would be giving the other religions a LEGITIMACY that just could not be tolerated by thier dogma/doctrines.
So, Mr.Colson, with this article, shows how deep his Fundamentalisn runs. To him, having a Pagan and or Wiccan Chaplain would legitimize a non-religion, and he just can't have that. He may have written in soft tones, but it's clear his bigotry and prejudice stands out in neon lights.
So really it's a moot point to try to argue with someone of the mentality like "Don't bother me with the facts, my mind's made up!".
However, it is IMPERITIVE to point out bigotry and intolerance in all forms to guard our precious liberties from those who would deny them to"any others".
Freedom of religion, for the one, for the many, for everyone!
Here is the defination of religion from Dictionary.com: "1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."
Sounds very much like many pagan religions I have studied, including Hinduism, Shinto, and some African religions, which came to the New World and morphed into such religions as Voudun. Santeria is also old world Pagan + christian religion. There many are different kinds of Pagans from Europe; all the way from some Samis (Laplanders) to the Greeks. All continents of the world have Pagans of some sort, except, perhaps, Antarctica.
So how is that, since we exist now, that we would be "pre-christian?" I would say christians were killers and thieves who killed our (spiritual) ancestors because they wouldn't convert; then took over the pagan dieties, to make what Pagans there still were (and there were plenty) think they could still worship Brigit and Cerridwen and Hecate under the guise of the "Blessed Mother".
Look, Chuck, I would think you still have enough problems after the Watergate debacle, without adding Pagans to your lists of things to be destroyed next.
"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" KJV Luke 6:41
Check it out Chuck, you might learn something.
Here is the defination of religion from Dictionary.com: "1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."
Sounds very much like many pagan religions I have studied, including Hinduism, Shinto, and some African religions, which came to the New World and morphed into such religions as Voudun. Santeria is also old world Pagan + christian religion. There many are different kinds of Pagans from Europe; all the way from some Samis (Laplanders) to the Greeks. All continents of the world have Pagans of some sort, except, perhaps, Antarctica.
So how is that, since we exist now, that we would be "pre-christian?" I would say christians were killers and thieves who killed our (spiritual) ancestors because they wouldn't convert; then took over the pagan dieties, to make what Pagans there still were (and there were plenty) think they could still worship Brigit and Cerridwen and Hecate under the guise of the "Blessed Mother".
Look, Chuck, I would think you still have enough problems after the Watergate debacle, without adding Pagans to your lists of things to be destroyed next.
"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" KJV Luke 6:41
Check it out Chuck, you might learn something.
This is precisely the problem with commentators today. It would serve you well to become as well versed in both ancient paganism and our modern day neopaganism to understand the differences. Wicca in particular has many similarities with Christianity. One of the most ridiculous claims you are making is that in general there is no denomination of Paganism today that will support a moral and religious structure. If you were to take the time to educate yourself, you would realize that among the various denominations there are many practitioners who uphold the very nature of ethics and morality within their belief structure.
There exists a history between the founding fathers and the French Occult Revival from the 18th and 19th centuries. Although it is not common knowledge, it might require people of your position to do a bit of research. There are many misconceptions that the founders were Christian in the way that many conceive the concept. The men you speak of were progressive minded, and urged their fellow citizens to think likewise, instead of the kind of regressive limitations that declaring a 'religion test' in the Court can do at a time like this.
We have men dying over in Iraq who are Neo-Pagan in one denomination or another. And because Paganism does not meet a 'religion test' you would frown upon those men having the right to find the comforts that a religion or spirituality may offer?
We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal. Differences will do more to divide us even further. It is time that we try to understand each other, and it is time for America to look past the 'religion test', and embrace its citizens wholeheartedly. Our freedoms, among all, and of religion first, is what separates us from the rest of the world. Its time we acknowledge it.
http://www.milpagan.org/media/statistics.html is the cited source of the # of Pagans in the US military. A Defense Department reference would be the only real source of accurate information.
But let us do the math anyway: 4300 Pagans/6702 military bases (http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2004/01bases.htm) or less than one Pagan per base on average.
There are probably more Pagans working for Wallmart. Maybe they should add a few Pagan chaplins to the "welcomers".
And there are probably a heck of a lot more atheists in the military. Another positive for atheism. No chaplins required!!
And with so few Pagans in the military why are we discussing this issue?????
Take heart - consider that the Washingon Post and newsweek are doing a public service, just by letting us know what people like Colson are thinking.
Mikey - right on. Colson and his ilk will not win. Pagans, sensible Christians and atheists won't let it happen. Let me repeat: We have more in common with each other than with fundamentalists like Colson. We're tolerant, reasonable and can spot a hypocrite a mile away.
"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, always." – Mahatma Gandhi
I hope all of you posting here realize that you are talking to each other. Colson wouldn't walk two steps out of his way to listen to anything you have to say.
You cannot reason with someone whose allegiance is not to reason. You cannot appeal to his sense of fairness if he has no interest in being fair. Colson, like all evangelicals, see the world as a huge theater of war in which there are two camps, and only two; and he is "in it to win it."
The most you can hope to do is encourage one another, and perhaps evoke some sympathy and help from the non-aligned. But make no mistake; the battle with Colson and his ilk cannot be won politically. You may stay his hand temporarily, but it will be only a stay and not a victory.
The war that is intrinsic to fundamentalism of every stripe and which it wages against all who do not submit to it is yet another manifestation of the war between good and evil. When evil doesn't have a leg to stand on, it invents one out of thin air. Evil usually wins the first several rounds of any conflict, simply because it follows no rules and will do anything to win. Evil eventually loses, however, because it carries its weakness within itself, and cannot escape it. Colson, et al., may win today, but they must eventually lose. The period in-between is the sandwich of suffering which must be consumed by those who will not capitulate.
So, have courage. Though they visit a new Inquisition upon us, we cannot lose. Good, truth and love will always spring up, like flowers in the desert, after the Colsons have all passed away.
This garbage that you wrote is simply an embarrasment from stem to stern.
You are ignorant, arrogant and ill-informed.
As for Newsweek and WP: Do you have ANY standards at all? Between Colson, Elliot and Thomas you have really out-done yourself for providing a platform for the painfully ignorant. You are not living up to your missions as providers of news and intelligent insight.
Yesterday a few coven-mates and I offered and delivered our prison ministry services to FCI McKean. Today you compare that group to a cult and imply we are not moral and religious enough to support a public office. As a prison minister I’m ashamed to call you a colleague and hope you narrow views are not a reflection on “Prison Fellowship” as a whole.
I'd have to agree that eclecticism (that's the word, by the way, sorry to revert to my reality as a teacher of writing) would be an advantage. These chaplains minister to a diverse community in the US military. Wiccans and other Pagans would indeed seem to have a head start...
I think where there are 'problems' with Wiccan 'eclecticness' are ...problems others have with it, not a problem Wicca *has,* in its many variations.
Basically, there's more consistency than Wicca is given credit for: relative lack of 'dogma' does not in fact make Wiccans more 'inconsistent' than other major religions: Wicca even in the broadest sense, ,shares a religious language and practice that *gets along* with many Gods and many views of these Gods.
None of this disqualifies the idea of Pagan chaplains in the military. Certainly not for Wiccans. This is just about other people's expectations, and in fact, inasmuch as some are looking for *reasons* to exclude our troops from representation, a convenient way to say different religions aren't religions because they are different.
A good military chaplain has to be broad-minded and able to serve troops of *whatever* faith they encounter. I'd consider many Wiccan clergy to have a *head start* on this. :)
"It is debatable whether paganism is a religion, per say. It is generally defined as a pre-Christian state, but it takes a wide variety of forms-all the way from relatively benign New Age-style nature worship, to pantheism,..."
Just because paganism is a pre-Christian belief, does not mean that it is pre-religion, existed before religion. As I understand, the basic description of a religion is a belief in some kind of deity. Look at the last word in the quote above, pantheism. Theism means deity. Pantheists believe in a deity and that qualifies them as a religion. Pagans are not atheists; it's not like they believe that there are no divine beings. They experience the divine, and as such, their beliefs qualify them as a religion.
"Those who publicly identify themselves as pagans are at best a marginal number and are basically no different from dozens of other cults."
Clearly, the definition of a "cult" in this context means they are of a "marginal number." This means that any group that is not one of the dominant religions of a culture can be labeled as a cult. In India, Christianity is a cult. Does this mean that Christianity is not a valid religion with a valid set of morals? Not at all! Likewise, just because pagans are a minority, this does not mean that they are not a valid religion with a valid morals.
"It is perfectly appropriate, if a group meets court tests for religion, that outside priest/ministers be allowed to come into federal facilities and minister."
The United States recognizes a major group of pagans, Wiccans, as passing the test of being a religion. That is why they are allowed to display their emblem on their toumbstones in federal cemetaries.
The introduction to your article on the Washington Post webpage states, "Charles W. 'Chuck' Colson is founder of Prison Fellowship, a Christian outreach ministry to the prison population of this country..."
It sounds as if your opinion that paganism doesn't qualify as a religion arises more out of your desire to have no competition in your prison ministry.
"There are tenets of their belief that, I think, are incompatible with the requirements of American democratic governance.
"Lest this sound discriminatory, I think it is very clear from reading the writings of our founding fathers that a sound adherence to the values of the Judeo-Christian tradition-or at the very least, deism-was essential as a basis of the moral law that would sustain a free society."
The last quote above immediatly follows the quote before. It appears to me that you are saying that pagans beliefs are "incompatible with the requirements of democratic governance" because they have no morals. It is definatly not true that only Judeo-Christian traditions have morals. There are A LOT of other traditions, and almost all of them have morals. Please show at least a little respect for the values of other traditions. If Christians want others to show them respect, they they should also respect others. What has happened to the Christian law that we should do unto others as we wish to have done unto us?
As for the second requirement mentioned above - that a group must have a belief in deism - before they can be moral people, I know a lot of Buddhists who are not deists and they are some of the most compassionate and moral people I have ever had the privilege of being acquainted with. A person does not have to believe in God in order to do good unto others. What is important when it comes to morality is not weather one believes in God, but weather one has compassion for others.
"John Adams famously wrote, 'We have no government, armed in power, capable of contending with human passion unbridled by morality and religion . . . our Constitution was made only for moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.' And George Washington said, 'Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to a political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.' "
Both of those quotes show that religion and morality are not identicle. If they were, then John Adams and George Washington would not have mentioned "morality and religion." They would have simply said "religion."
"Not being as familiar with paganism in its various forms, I do not wish to condemn it unfairly. But from what I know of it, I do not think it can provide the 'indispensable supports' Washington wrote about."
Paganism is a group of religions, even if they are not your religion. Pagans are generally moral, even if they have other values than your values. As is obvious from what you have said above and what you specifically say in the last quote, you are not familiar with paganism. You claim that you do "not wish to condemn [paganism] unfairly," but to condemn something you are not fimiliar with is unfair.
All Comments (423)
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July 11, 2008 5:56 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 11, 2008 05:56
This is a poorly written article, shame on washington post for allowing such a corrupt man to make such slanderous and ignorant statements. Im sure if the words Pagan were replaced with jew or black, the reaction would be much worse.
June 18, 2008 7:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2008 19:56
Dear Mr. Colson,
You have gotten yourself into a lot of trouble and generated an impressive array of hostile response. As your brother in the Lord I certainly understand and sympathize with a desire to see only those with the correct Biblical world view ministering to anyone's spiritual needs, or serving in high political office. None of these angry pagan responses in this list have made me feel that any of them might be more morally qualified.
Unfortunately, I suppose that to love them we must allow them to have their say. The one who cited Madison's quote about chaplains in Congress did make the point well I think.
The Church has learned some hard lessons about the uselessness and impropriety of burning people at the stake. Fortunately I believe it is also the Church itself that repented of that sin. History doesn't teach me that pagans in any way compelled the Church to leave them alone. I think it was the Church that developed the political doctrine of the freedom of speech as a result of the failure of religious persecution to bear good fruit.
On tolerance, of course each proponent of a different faith currently believes that his faith is legitimate and all others are false. Most are in fact what they are by birth and comfortable with being uncritical about their views. Or some are uncomfortable with that in which they were born and seek a "better" way, most finding that "better" way in some other false religion that "feels" more right than that which they leave behind. Christianity is the hardest faith to believe in. It is the most opposite of what humans naturally want to believe. That is strong evidence that it comes from God.
Mr. Colson, you and I know that it is only the Truth that will set them free. And only some are good soil that responds to the the true voice of God. Let them call us bigots. They are blind. And I am well aware that more angry tirades will come in response to my way of seeing things. Few will take up the challenge to seriously examine. It is easier to hurl insults than to truly defend a false faith.
March 12, 2008 10:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 12, 2008 10:59
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St. Catharines Living
http://www.bayareahomebirth.org/
December 16, 2007 5:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 17:17
I am Confused. Are you saying that paganism is right?
November 16, 2007 11:07 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 16, 2007 11:07
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November 15, 2007 2:12 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 15, 2007 14:12
First, thank you so much for your past support. Because of friends like you we painted the library and relandscaped the grounds. Now, we must replace the obsolete and energy wasting lighting in the library for a cost between $75,000 and $92,000 so we are busy raising funds. The silent auction of autographed at our annual dinner meeting, October 25 this year, has been a great success. We would be so grateful if you would contribute a copy of your books. Please mail to Martha Lydick, 1284 Coronado Drive, Laguna Beach, CA 92651
October 2, 2007 4:03 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 2, 2007 16:03
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September 19, 2007 3:22 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on September 19, 2007 03:22
"It is debatable whether paganism is a religion, per say."
It's not "A" Religion, it's a Group of Religions. Just like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all Arab Religions (Meaning they Originate from the Middle East), and Hinduism and Buddhism are Dharmic Religions, thus proving Wicca and all other Pagan Religions are real Religions.
"Without self restraint, free governments cannot succeed."
"our Constitution was made only for moral and religious people."
Have you taking a good look at Wicca. Although the Wiccan Reade dose not have "Commandments" from a God that dosn't mean they don't have Morals. Most Wiccans are just about perhaps even more Moral than Most Christians, and other the Pagan Religions are the same.
August 25, 2007 7:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 25, 2007 19:29
Mr. Colson, perhaps before you denegrate a spiritual path you should learn something about it. I think the human sacrifice thing went out with Pagans long before it went out with Christians. Pagans also used it as punishment for criminals, but usually the criminals we chose had actually committed a crime.
However, getting back to the current age, I think your fear shows quite brightly in all your bigotry. Paganism has been growing largely in part for the fundamentalist attitudes and strict adherance to long outdated rules and restrictions that keep people from being human. We don't pressure our folks to fork over 10% of their income to go into the pockets of a well fed heirarchy or to build temples to our Gods. Doesn't the Bible say something about not worshipping idols? Yet, its quite all right to cover the domes of churches with gold? How many hungry children could the money paying for that gold feed?
We have morals and values just as everyone else has. To equate Paganism with a lack of morals truly shows your ingnorance. However, Pagans put thought into what they believe and do not believe. Therefore, we try to live by our morals and values. I have been active in my community and in politics. My spirituallity is very strong and supports all that I do. It also supports what I choose to oppose. Yet, I do not feel the need to shove my religion down anyone else's throat. I am quite able to work along side a Christian, or anyone else not of my spiritual path, to get outdated and small minded folk like yourself out of our Nation's government offices. I think a Pagan would make an excellent politician. It would be nice to have someone who considers the long term effects of their actions, and doesn't do solely what is in their own personal best interests.
Believe it or not, your God is not the only God. And I for one am really tired of folk like you who insist he is. Perhaps if you talked to a Pagan, and treated them with a modicum of respect you wouldn't be living in such ignorance. Poke your head out of that box you're living in. Its truly beautiful out here in the real world with real people!
August 18, 2007 8:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 18, 2007 20:45
I work with Wiccans, pagans, and members of other similar religious persuasions within the Ohio prison system. Not long ago, I spoke with Steven T. McFarland, Office of the deputy Attorney General, United States of America. He seemed to be clear that government’s reason for supporting any religion within the prison population is because doing so decreases recidivism. Like Christian, Muslim, Jewish, and other offenders; Wiccan and pagan rapists are less likely to rape again if they have spiritual mentoring while in prison. Like Christian, Muslim, Jewish and other offenders Wiccan and pagan murders are less likely to murder again if they have spiritual mentoring while in prison. I work with the prison system because I do not want my children to be raped, murdered, or suffer other violent crimes. Despite the fact that George W. Bush seems to agree with you on the validity / lack of validity of Wicca as a religion, he supports programs such as the one I am involved in because he feels the same way about his twins; he does not want to see them raped, murdered or fall victim to violent crime. It saddens me that a religious leader such as you would not put children ahead of a religious agenda.
If that is not a sufficient reason to involve Wiccans, pagans, and members of other similar religious persuasions in the programs and staff of our prison system; consider the issue of security. Christianity is not the only religion, which has radical groups and teachings that might present a security risk within the prison population. Christianity is not the only religion with factions, which promote racism, violence and hate. As I am sure you are aware, the country is largely concerned with a threat from radical Islam. How do you propose a prison system determines what literature and groups promote radical Islam and thus represent a security risk with in our prison? Did you know that there is a Wiccan organization, which has promoted the molestation, intoxication, and rape of children in the name of Wicca? Did you know that one of the leaders of Seax Wicca seems to promote violent hatred of homosexuals?
Please consider the pedophilic literature, which was previously allowed into the Ohio prison system: The Witches Bible by Gavin and Yvonne Frost clearly promotes the molestation, intoxication, and rape of children in the name of Wicca. It does not seem to be the type of literature prisons should allow to reach their sexual offenders now does it? (http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/defrost-please-read/). However, as you have stated so firmly, you see no reason to involve clergy from religions, which are with knowledge of such literature. As you have stated, you see no reason to hire qualified individuals who might prevent such literature from being present among the sex offenders in our prison system.
Personal agendas to promote only Christianity is responsible for increased recidivism and for keeping the prison system in the dark concerning security threats presented by radical Wiccan, heathen, and pagan organizations.
A god, any god, who would insist that his word is more important than protecting children is not a god worthy of my praise.
A.J. Drew
Author: A Wiccan Bible
Founder: Pagan Nation – http://PaganNation.com
August 10, 2007 12:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 10, 2007 12:53
"There are tenets of their belief that, I think, are incompatible with the requirements of American democratic governance."
And what pray tell would those tenets be? Love of self as Temple? Love of others as Temple? Tolerance of those who are, in any way, different? Belief in a Divine? (A rose is still a rose) Belief in self empowerment? Respect for our environment? Respect for home, family, Country?
As a member of the military, I can assure you that We have as much, if not more, Love for our country and the principles it was founded on, among them freedom from religious persecution. Denying is a form of persecution. How moral of you...
I will be the first to say that there are bad apples in my bunch. Are You as willing to acknowledge your Christian bad apples?
August 8, 2007 5:00 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 8, 2007 17:00
"There are tenets of their belief that, I think, are incompatible with the requirements of American democratic governance."
And what pray tell would those tenets be? Love of self as Temple? Love of others as Temple? Tolerance of those who are, in any way, different? Belief in a Divine? (A rose is still a rose) Belief in self empowerment? Respect for our environment? Respect for home, family, Country?
As a member of the military, I can assure you that We have as much, if not more, Love for our country and the principles it was founded on, among them freedom from religious persecution. Denying is a form of persecution. How moral of you...
I will be the first to say that there are bad apples in my bunch. Are You as willing to acknowledge your Christian bad apples?
August 8, 2007 4:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 8, 2007 16:28
So, let me get this straight, Mr. Colson. Ministry is only permissible for "mainline" faiths - that is, numbers trump belief, and if your particular faith falls below some arbitrary cutoff, tough luck.
Although you claim not to be very knowledgeable about paganism and Wicca - a claim which I am readily willing to believe - you state with some air of authority that these faiths provide little basis for self-restraint or for morality.
Let's be very clear about your statements. You have basically just branded all U.S. citizens who happen to follow a pagan or Wiccan path as enemies of democracy.
Where exactly do you get off with this viewpoint?
Are only Christians of your particular stripe welcome in the government, and the society, you envision for the USA?
Is the question of whether YOU would support a pagan or Wiccan candidate for any elected office really so important to this discussion?
The crux of the matter, Mr. Colson, is that you are, at some basic level, scared of anything that isn't in line with what you already believe; terrified of any point of view that doesn't already line up with what you feel is valid; prepared to demonize anything - anything at ALL - that you neither fully understand or subscribe to.
America was founded on religious freedom for everybody, Mr. Colson...not just for the people you agree with. Get used to it. Because it's about to reclaimed from zealots like yourself.
July 25, 2007 5:43 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 25, 2007 05:43
Ok, so... you're discounting our beliefs? What makes you think that Christianity is the truth? Do you know that normal men wrote the bible, and that it was edited by others than the apostles? Do you have any proof that Wiccanism has done any harm? No, you can only say you're not selling as many bibles... poor you. I can say that Christianity started the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, all because of the self-serving Christian leaders. Besides, Wicca is based off the Earth religions, from before anyone ever heard of Jesus. You act as if you know anything about Wicca, but do you? Do you even realize we don't believe in Satan? So, we don't worship Satan. Your bible preaches tolerance, and to "love thy neighbor." Before you try to be a misinformed crusader, read your bible. All you guys do is brain-wash people into funding your missions. We don't believe in "spreading the gospel." If you are meant to learn more about the Goddess, you will. Instead of letting the Bible brain-wash you, think for yourself, use your own instincts. To every other Wiccan that is offended by this man, may the Goddess watch over you.
July 24, 2007 7:18 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 24, 2007 07:18
Geez Chuck! You admit you know little about Paganism, yet you have enough of an opinion to put into print. When I was in elementary school, a teach once taught us to put our minds in gear BEFORE opening our mouths. Sound advice, if you ask me. Unfortunately, not everyone does that, as is evident by your statements. Now that we know you have an opinion, why don't you take it a step further, and make it an EDUCATED one. Do some research. Learn what it is you wish to talk about before you make such bold statements, knowing nothing about the subject. Lincoln once said "Tis better to remain silence, and be thought a fool, that to open one's mouth, and remove all doubt".
How can a grown man such as yourself, be so irresponsible as to give a public opinion about other religions, when you know nothing about them?
Remember, your Jesus Christ was considered a "cult" leader a couple thousand years ago. All religions, at some point in time, have been "cult" religions. Who ever said being mainstream meant being right? I challenge you to study what you talk about. Research Pagan religions before you put them down. And I'm not talking about research from Christian based information. Use real data, and not propaganda. There are plenty of educated and reputable works to learn from, if you look outside your own small world.
I don't know what is more disappointing, the fact that you don't know what you're talking about, or the fact that someone gave you that much space to print your unlearned and obviously biased opinion.
July 16, 2007 5:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 16, 2007 17:24
"The more difficult question is whether I would vote for a pagan for public office. The answer is that on one hand I fully respect the fact that there should be no religious test for public office; on the other hand, I would have great difficulty supporting an explicit Wiccan or pagan for high public office. There are tenets of their belief that, I think, are incompatible with the requirements of American democratic governance.
Lest this sound discriminatory, I think it is very clear from reading the writings of our founding fathers that a sound adherence to the values of the Judeo-Christian tradition—or at the very least, deism—was essential as a basis of the moral law that would sustain a free society."
Well, I quoted what you said, now let me quote a few others.........
Here's some quotes from the Founding Fathers of this country that I ran across today. Nice to see the Founding Fathers I so love for their ideas of freedom felt the same way I do about religion:
Thomas Jefferson: "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man"
Benjamin Franklin: "Lighthouses are more useful than churches"
A 1796 treaty signed by John Adams declares, "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"; Adams also said, "this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it"
Tons of people (more than have read) have posted replied, and sadly, like my post, it will fall on blind eyes and deaf ears, but like them, I want to voice my opinion.
July 12, 2007 7:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 12, 2007 07:15
"The more difficult question is whether I would vote for a pagan for public office. The answer is that on one hand I fully respect the fact that there should be no religious test for public office; on the other hand, I would have great difficulty supporting an explicit Wiccan or pagan for high public office. There are tenets of their belief that, I think, are incompatible with the requirements of American democratic governance.
Lest this sound discriminatory, I think it is very clear from reading the writings of our founding fathers that a sound adherence to the values of the Judeo-Christian tradition—or at the very least, deism—was essential as a basis of the moral law that would sustain a free society."
Well, I quoted what you said, now let me quote a few others.........
Here's some quotes from the Founding Fathers of this country that I ran across today. Nice to see the Founding Fathers I so love for their ideas of freedom felt the same way I do about religion:
Thomas Jefferson: "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man"
Benjamin Franklin: "Lighthouses are more useful than churches"
A 1796 treaty signed by John Adams declares, "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"; Adams also said, "this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it"
Tons of people (more than have read) have posted replied, and sadly, like my post, it will fall on blind eyes and deaf ears, but like them, I want to voice my opinion.
July 12, 2007 7:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 12, 2007 07:15
Wow! Another mainstream fanatical bigot... I'm a former Marine, current Police Officer, Ordained Minister and guess what I AM PAGAN!!!!! I just shake my head sometimes and reaffirm my Pagan beliefs and sense of duty and tell myself "yes" I will and always will defend and protect all persons!" Even the ignorant!!
Semper Fi to 1st Lt. Mayer anyway......
P.S. There are more pagan Marines than you think my friend....
July 12, 2007 1:10 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 12, 2007 01:10
Maybe Chuck should take a look at this to see where his religion came from. Damn..ignorance does = bigotry...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331&q=zeitgeist&total=667&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3
July 11, 2007 8:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 11, 2007 20:11
Does The Pagan Temple look real enough for you. The WORLD was Pagan except the Hebrews before Christ. How can you say it is not a religion? Even the supreme court has said that it is.
All the little sects of Christians must not be real religions then correct? By your way of thinking this is true. Also by your way of thinking I should never vote for any Christian. Is this what this country has come to? How sad. How truly sad.
You seek to perpetuate and belittle those fellow Americans experiencing God in their way. How can you honestly call yourself a man of faith? A man of faith would reserve judgement, yet here you spout about what you think you know about Pagans.
I have many many Christian friends. ALL of which reserved judgement about me and my family. All are kind and gracious. Perhaps you should take a cue from your brethren. Your God does not like pride. Stating that another's belief is non-existent just because it isn't the same as yours is arrogance, ignorance, and pride mixed. Just because you don't comprehend it to be a religion, doesn't mean it isn't so. So I guess Hinduism isn't a religion or Buddhism. They are just what was around before Christ as well.
Please hold your tongue until you know what exactly you are talking about.
July 10, 2007 1:55 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 01:55
Yeah, I meant how I said it, even if it meant coining a term for the purpose. :)
Precision in speech is supposed to be something I cultivate. (talk about a lifelong discipline) It can be hard with a really diverse audience. :)
Wasn't that Thomas Jefferson something, though? :)
July 10, 2007 1:50 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 01:50
Paganplace
Be assured that I have never doubted your mastery of the written word. I just occasionally feel that I must put a check on usage that might muddle the understanding of some who are less precise in their diction. I trust you to mean what you write...
July 9, 2007 11:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 23:56
Hi, Vie!
"'d have to agree that eclecticism (that's the word, by the way, sorry to revert to my reality as a teacher of writing) would be an advantage. These chaplains minister to a diverse community in the US military. Wiccans and other Pagans would indeed seem to have a head start..."
Thanks, and, yes, eclecticism is 'the' word, I know, I said, 'Eclecticness' (in quotes,) because 'the' word doesn't quite fit in the sense I meant.
It implies in many ways that Paganism insists everyone must be eclectic. :) I think it's just something about us which happens. :)
July 9, 2007 6:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 18:17
Dear ignorant christian,
maybe you need to read history again, here I will give you some information. Please read this and learn.. cause your ignorance shows what a fool you really are.
No man [should] be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor [should he] be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor ... otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief ... All men [should] be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and ... the same [should] in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
Thomas Jefferson; Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the the most lovely benevolence, and others, again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, therefore, the dross; restore to him the former and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, the roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus.
Thomas Jefferson; letter to William Short, 1820
Christianity ... (has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ... Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.
Thomas Jefferson
have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded upon fables and mythologies. The Christian God is a being of terrific character – cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust ...
Thomas Jefferson
The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves ... these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Thomas Jefferson
The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.
Thomas Jefferson
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Thomas Jefferson; Notes on Virginia, 1782
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
Thomas Jefferson ; letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
Thomas Jefferson; letter to Dr Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them …
Thomas Jefferson; letter to Horatio G Spafford, March 17, 1814
OH by the way.. the most important part you need to remember since its in our constitution :
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
Thomas Jefferson; letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT, January 1, 1802
July 9, 2007 5:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 17:42
Human sacrifice? Sounds like stuff I read in Sunday school about what Christians do to non believers. Salem Witch Trials, Inquisition, Holy Wars, etc…
Cult…? Christianity does classify as a cult…you do realize this right?
What if no one listened to Jesus when he was around? No Bible was ever written. No 10 commandments (which btw if they were so valuable where the heck are they?). What religion do you think you would be right now? Probably just another heathen Pagan without any structured religion. I mean it would be absolutely horrible to not have someone telling you how to worship, when or worship, or holding their hands out for your last dollar. I am sure you would not know what to do with yourself.
There should be no religious tests…EVER for anyone. Is that not what we established the USA for? For freedom of persecution and religious freedom? And why should a soldier not be recognized or honored in life or death due to his/her religion beliefs? How can you, or anyone, who is suppose to love and accept everyone (according to your written word – The Bible) turn down someone for help or even tolerance while serving this country and fighting for YOUR freedoms. Chaplains do not have to follow the religion but just to be there and know something about it. Are you scared that more and more Christians may convert once they learn of Wicca/Paganism and what it is really about?
In respect sir, I think you are confusing John Adams’s word “religious” with “Christianity.” He does not use the word Christian instead he uses the word “religion” which if you get out your dictionary or can look it up online…Wiki states that “A religion is a set of beliefs and practices generally held by a community, involving adherence to codified beliefs and rituals and study of ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith an mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.” I don’t think that “religion” just covers Christianity. Reading between the lines too much leads one to ignorance and self diluted thoughts of righteousness.
If you look back on history…and even in your Bible, there are tons of examples of morality but there are also loads of inhumane acts against people and animals all in the name of “God.” There has been more bloodshed over religious persecution than any war we have ever experienced combined. How does morality fit into that? Does burning a girl at the stake because she owned a cat an example of morality? Maybe something a little more “present day:” Gay rights? Christians turn away gays from the church, even turning away a son or daughter. But doesn’t your Bible say to love everyone and that it is not your place to judge anyone? Religion with stipulations? Or do you just pick and choose what do believe in and when to believe in it? What examples are you basing your ideas of “indispensable supports” on anyway?
Over all…Paganism/Wicca is not a structured religion like Christianity but we also don’t have the violent history either. It is true that there are some examples of violent non-humane rituals but they very rare and very very few cultures that practice human sacrifice especially in present day. I believe we as a whole have more morals than Christianity and Paganism/Wicca is based off a much older religion.
Before you go criticizing Paganism/Wicca maybe you should read what the basis of what Wicca is. We are not out to control or harm anyone or anything. Most sects have a standard of “harm none.” This means in thought or in act. We are not suppose to judge anyone because they are not of the same religion. Can a Christian or even you, yourself say that?
It is my belief that it is minds like yours that are holding this country back and keeping its people repressed. Forgive us that do not follow your lead or your path.
July 9, 2007 3:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 15:02
Other Notable.....
You are correct. I am so glad that our founding fathers did not have to deal with today's religious right. I think that very few (if any) of them would have been elected. They would be considered WAY too liberal and open-minded.
What a shame our country has regressed so much. GWB could not have made 4th string Waterboy at the 1st Continental Congress.
July 9, 2007 2:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 14:33
-Episcopal minister Bird Wilson of Albany, New York, protested in October 1831: "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."
-Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by a pastor or priest.
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."-Thomas Paine
In fact, if you look deeply, many of the key figures of the body of "Founding Fathers" made several comments (in journals, in letters, etc.) hostile to either the churches of Christianity or else religion itself.
The one concept that anyone can certainly claim as fact about the founding fathers is that they believed in liberty and despised tyranny. No where does any one of these most-notable "Founding Father" figures profess that ours is or was ever meant to be a Christian Nation (note the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11) or that the values they professed were done so because of any belief of theirs in a specifically Judeo-Christian Deity.
July 9, 2007 1:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 13:44
"No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3)
July 9, 2007 1:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 13:18
"...Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry; that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which in common with his fellow-citizens he has a natural right; that it tends only to corrupt the principles of that religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments, those who will externally profess and conform to it..."
"...To suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion, and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency, is a dangerous fallacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment, and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own..."
"[Sec. 2] Be it enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
"[Sec. 3] And though we well know that this assembly elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding assemblies, constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act to be irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare, that the rights hereby asserted are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present, or to narrow its operation, such act shall be an infringement of natural right."
July 9, 2007 1:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 13:16
Some Christian Fundamentalists (or ANY Fundamenatlists of any religion for that matter)just can't help how they think or what they say.
The light of reason and intelligence has been extinguished by literal brainwashing, from birth or from choice (usually because of some severe personal crisis that religion seemed to solve). The dogma they subscribe to prevents any serious open inquiry into what they beleive because to doubt is to sin. Fundamentalists will rationalize, bad mouth, or even outright lie about anything that they feel casts a doubt on thier personal religious view (i.e.,Evolution, Biology, Geology, Anthropology, etc..).
Why do they lose all rationality? Simply put from a psychological viewpoint, Fundamentalists MUST do this to protect their fragile world view.
Fundamentalists suffer from a massive personal insecurity, and use a religion as a shield and security blanket so that the reality of who they are does not have to be dealt with.
But it doesn't stop there.
Real foaming at the mouth Fundamentalists have an overwhelming emotional need to assert thier religion is the ONLY true religion. Any other religion is wrong, of the Devil, (place name of your choice here). Therefor, no other religion can be respected or tolerated.
Other religions MUST be kept in the 2nd class to prevent them from gaining political/legal legitimacy.
This attitude stems from the Fundamentalists own insecurities and emotional immaturity (i.e.,"WE are the Majority, so that makes us the RIGHT ones!" style of thinking.)
Fundamentalists just can't treat other religions with fairness, dignity, or respect.
THAT would be giving the other religions a LEGITIMACY that just could not be tolerated by thier dogma/doctrines.
So, Mr.Colson, with this article, shows how deep his Fundamentalisn runs. To him, having a Pagan and or Wiccan Chaplain would legitimize a non-religion, and he just can't have that. He may have written in soft tones, but it's clear his bigotry and prejudice stands out in neon lights.
So really it's a moot point to try to argue with someone of the mentality like "Don't bother me with the facts, my mind's made up!".
However, it is IMPERITIVE to point out bigotry and intolerance in all forms to guard our precious liberties from those who would deny them to"any others".
Freedom of religion, for the one, for the many, for everyone!
July 9, 2007 1:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 13:09
Sorry about the double post. I better look at the beam in my eye.
July 9, 2007 12:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 12:02
Here is the defination of religion from Dictionary.com: "1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."
Sounds very much like many pagan religions I have studied, including Hinduism, Shinto, and some African religions, which came to the New World and morphed into such religions as Voudun. Santeria is also old world Pagan + christian religion. There many are different kinds of Pagans from Europe; all the way from some Samis (Laplanders) to the Greeks. All continents of the world have Pagans of some sort, except, perhaps, Antarctica.
So how is that, since we exist now, that we would be "pre-christian?" I would say christians were killers and thieves who killed our (spiritual) ancestors because they wouldn't convert; then took over the pagan dieties, to make what Pagans there still were (and there were plenty) think they could still worship Brigit and Cerridwen and Hecate under the guise of the "Blessed Mother".
Look, Chuck, I would think you still have enough problems after the Watergate debacle, without adding Pagans to your lists of things to be destroyed next.
"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" KJV Luke 6:41
Check it out Chuck, you might learn something.
July 9, 2007 11:43 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 11:43
Here is the defination of religion from Dictionary.com: "1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."
Sounds very much like many pagan religions I have studied, including Hinduism, Shinto, and some African religions, which came to the New World and morphed into such religions as Voudun. Santeria is also old world Pagan + christian religion. There many are different kinds of Pagans from Europe; all the way from some Samis (Laplanders) to the Greeks. All continents of the world have Pagans of some sort, except, perhaps, Antarctica.
So how is that, since we exist now, that we would be "pre-christian?" I would say christians were killers and thieves who killed our (spiritual) ancestors because they wouldn't convert; then took over the pagan dieties, to make what Pagans there still were (and there were plenty) think they could still worship Brigit and Cerridwen and Hecate under the guise of the "Blessed Mother".
Look, Chuck, I would think you still have enough problems after the Watergate debacle, without adding Pagans to your lists of things to be destroyed next.
"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" KJV Luke 6:41
Check it out Chuck, you might learn something.
July 9, 2007 11:43 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 11:43
This is precisely the problem with commentators today. It would serve you well to become as well versed in both ancient paganism and our modern day neopaganism to understand the differences. Wicca in particular has many similarities with Christianity. One of the most ridiculous claims you are making is that in general there is no denomination of Paganism today that will support a moral and religious structure. If you were to take the time to educate yourself, you would realize that among the various denominations there are many practitioners who uphold the very nature of ethics and morality within their belief structure.
There exists a history between the founding fathers and the French Occult Revival from the 18th and 19th centuries. Although it is not common knowledge, it might require people of your position to do a bit of research. There are many misconceptions that the founders were Christian in the way that many conceive the concept. The men you speak of were progressive minded, and urged their fellow citizens to think likewise, instead of the kind of regressive limitations that declaring a 'religion test' in the Court can do at a time like this.
We have men dying over in Iraq who are Neo-Pagan in one denomination or another. And because Paganism does not meet a 'religion test' you would frown upon those men having the right to find the comforts that a religion or spirituality may offer?
We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal. Differences will do more to divide us even further. It is time that we try to understand each other, and it is time for America to look past the 'religion test', and embrace its citizens wholeheartedly. Our freedoms, among all, and of religion first, is what separates us from the rest of the world. Its time we acknowledge it.
July 9, 2007 12:41 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 00:41
Mikey,
Beautifully said. I just only hope it happens sooner rather than later. There's so much work to do, right here, right now, to help heal.
I hope I can be a part of it in some small way.
Namaste.
July 9, 2007 12:05 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 00:05
http://www.milpagan.org/media/statistics.html is the cited source of the # of Pagans in the US military. A Defense Department reference would be the only real source of accurate information.
But let us do the math anyway: 4300 Pagans/6702 military bases (http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2004/01bases.htm) or less than one Pagan per base on average.
There are probably more Pagans working for Wallmart. Maybe they should add a few Pagan chaplins to the "welcomers".
And there are probably a heck of a lot more atheists in the military. Another positive for atheism. No chaplins required!!
And with so few Pagans in the military why are we discussing this issue?????
July 8, 2007 11:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 23:32
Chris W.S.
Take heart - consider that the Washingon Post and newsweek are doing a public service, just by letting us know what people like Colson are thinking.
Mikey - right on. Colson and his ilk will not win. Pagans, sensible Christians and atheists won't let it happen. Let me repeat: We have more in common with each other than with fundamentalists like Colson. We're tolerant, reasonable and can spot a hypocrite a mile away.
July 8, 2007 10:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 22:26
"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, always." – Mahatma Gandhi
I hope all of you posting here realize that you are talking to each other. Colson wouldn't walk two steps out of his way to listen to anything you have to say.
You cannot reason with someone whose allegiance is not to reason. You cannot appeal to his sense of fairness if he has no interest in being fair. Colson, like all evangelicals, see the world as a huge theater of war in which there are two camps, and only two; and he is "in it to win it."
The most you can hope to do is encourage one another, and perhaps evoke some sympathy and help from the non-aligned. But make no mistake; the battle with Colson and his ilk cannot be won politically. You may stay his hand temporarily, but it will be only a stay and not a victory.
The war that is intrinsic to fundamentalism of every stripe and which it wages against all who do not submit to it is yet another manifestation of the war between good and evil. When evil doesn't have a leg to stand on, it invents one out of thin air. Evil usually wins the first several rounds of any conflict, simply because it follows no rules and will do anything to win. Evil eventually loses, however, because it carries its weakness within itself, and cannot escape it. Colson, et al., may win today, but they must eventually lose. The period in-between is the sandwich of suffering which must be consumed by those who will not capitulate.
So, have courage. Though they visit a new Inquisition upon us, we cannot lose. Good, truth and love will always spring up, like flowers in the desert, after the Colsons have all passed away.
July 8, 2007 8:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 20:57
Chuck,
This garbage that you wrote is simply an embarrasment from stem to stern.
You are ignorant, arrogant and ill-informed.
As for Newsweek and WP: Do you have ANY standards at all? Between Colson, Elliot and Thomas you have really out-done yourself for providing a platform for the painfully ignorant. You are not living up to your missions as providers of news and intelligent insight.
You should be ashamed.
July 8, 2007 7:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 19:41
Yesterday a few coven-mates and I offered and delivered our prison ministry services to FCI McKean. Today you compare that group to a cult and imply we are not moral and religious enough to support a public office. As a prison minister I’m ashamed to call you a colleague and hope you narrow views are not a reflection on “Prison Fellowship” as a whole.
Kevin Jackowski
River D’Amaurot
July 8, 2007 4:21 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 16:21
I'd have to agree that eclecticism (that's the word, by the way, sorry to revert to my reality as a teacher of writing) would be an advantage. These chaplains minister to a diverse community in the US military. Wiccans and other Pagans would indeed seem to have a head start...
July 8, 2007 2:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 14:53
I think where there are 'problems' with Wiccan 'eclecticness' are ...problems others have with it, not a problem Wicca *has,* in its many variations.
Basically, there's more consistency than Wicca is given credit for: relative lack of 'dogma' does not in fact make Wiccans more 'inconsistent' than other major religions: Wicca even in the broadest sense, ,shares a religious language and practice that *gets along* with many Gods and many views of these Gods.
None of this disqualifies the idea of Pagan chaplains in the military. Certainly not for Wiccans. This is just about other people's expectations, and in fact, inasmuch as some are looking for *reasons* to exclude our troops from representation, a convenient way to say different religions aren't religions because they are different.
A good military chaplain has to be broad-minded and able to serve troops of *whatever* faith they encounter. I'd consider many Wiccan clergy to have a *head start* on this. :)
July 8, 2007 12:54 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 12:54
Quoting Charles W. 'Chuck' Colson:
"It is debatable whether paganism is a religion, per say. It is generally defined as a pre-Christian state, but it takes a wide variety of forms-all the way from relatively benign New Age-style nature worship, to pantheism,..."
Just because paganism is a pre-Christian belief, does not mean that it is pre-religion, existed before religion. As I understand, the basic description of a religion is a belief in some kind of deity. Look at the last word in the quote above, pantheism. Theism means deity. Pantheists believe in a deity and that qualifies them as a religion. Pagans are not atheists; it's not like they believe that there are no divine beings. They experience the divine, and as such, their beliefs qualify them as a religion.
"Those who publicly identify themselves as pagans are at best a marginal number and are basically no different from dozens of other cults."
Clearly, the definition of a "cult" in this context means they are of a "marginal number." This means that any group that is not one of the dominant religions of a culture can be labeled as a cult. In India, Christianity is a cult. Does this mean that Christianity is not a valid religion with a valid set of morals? Not at all! Likewise, just because pagans are a minority, this does not mean that they are not a valid religion with a valid morals.
"It is perfectly appropriate, if a group meets court tests for religion, that outside priest/ministers be allowed to come into federal facilities and minister."
The United States recognizes a major group of pagans, Wiccans, as passing the test of being a religion. That is why they are allowed to display their emblem on their toumbstones in federal cemetaries.
The introduction to your article on the Washington Post webpage states, "Charles W. 'Chuck' Colson is founder of Prison Fellowship, a Christian outreach ministry to the prison population of this country..."
It sounds as if your opinion that paganism doesn't qualify as a religion arises more out of your desire to have no competition in your prison ministry.
"There are tenets of their belief that, I think, are incompatible with the requirements of American democratic governance.
"Lest this sound discriminatory, I think it is very clear from reading the writings of our founding fathers that a sound adherence to the values of the Judeo-Christian tradition-or at the very least, deism-was essential as a basis of the moral law that would sustain a free society."
The last quote above immediatly follows the quote before. It appears to me that you are saying that pagans beliefs are "incompatible with the requirements of democratic governance" because they have no morals. It is definatly not true that only Judeo-Christian traditions have morals. There are A LOT of other traditions, and almost all of them have morals. Please show at least a little respect for the values of other traditions. If Christians want others to show them respect, they they should also respect others. What has happened to the Christian law that we should do unto others as we wish to have done unto us?
As for the second requirement mentioned above - that a group must have a belief in deism - before they can be moral people, I know a lot of Buddhists who are not deists and they are some of the most compassionate and moral people I have ever had the privilege of being acquainted with. A person does not have to believe in God in order to do good unto others. What is important when it comes to morality is not weather one believes in God, but weather one has compassion for others.
"John Adams famously wrote, 'We have no government, armed in power, capable of contending with human passion unbridled by morality and religion . . . our Constitution was made only for moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.' And George Washington said, 'Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to a political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.' "
Both of those quotes show that religion and morality are not identicle. If they were, then John Adams and George Washington would not have mentioned "morality and religion." They would have simply said "religion."
"Not being as familiar with paganism in its various forms, I do not wish to condemn it unfairly. But from what I know of it, I do not think it can provide the 'indispensable supports' Washington wrote about."
Paganism is a group of religions, even if they are not your religion. Pagans are generally moral, even if they have other values than your values. As is obvious from what you have said above and what you specifically say in the last quote, you are not familiar with paganism. You claim that you do "not wish to condemn [paganism] unfairly," but to condemn something you are not fimiliar with is unfair.
July 8, 2007 12:22 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 12:22