All Comments (46)

It takes a very long time to evolve to the point of having enough faith that one is certain of an outcome. If we are certain that another will be healed and there is no doubt, that will happen. That is what The Christ taught and practiced.

L O V E Makes The World Go Round & More Ya!

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Well, I believe some things may be questioned, but not all. If I consider the possibility that Jesus Christ is not real it means a doubt. And where doubt exists, I am not walking by faith anymore.

But to question about the ideas and acts of some christian leaders or denomination "North" is perfect acceptable.

We ought to realize with more atention what things we are thinking to put a "watchman" at the door of our mind.

John Cruzue.
http://olharcristao.blogspot.com

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Well, I believe some things may be questioned, but not all. If I consider the possibility that Jesus Christ is not real it menas a doubt. And where doubt exists, I am not walking by faith anymore.

But to question about the ideas and acts of some christian leaders or denomination "North" is perfect acceptable.

We ought to realize with more atention what things we are thinking to put a "watchman" at the door of our mind.

John Cruzue.
http://olharcristao.blogspot.com

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Excellent Gandalf.

I found a nice quotation by an Eastern philosopher and mystic, Osho. This is what he has to say on faith, belief and doubt!

FAITH is not belief, it is love. Faith is not belief because there is no doubt in it, so how can you believe? FAITH is not rationalization at all: neither for nor against, neither this nor that. Faith is a TRUST, a LOVE. Heart does not know what doubt is, heart does not know what BELIEF is - heart simply knows trust. Heart is like a small child; the small child clings to the father's hand, and wherever the father is going the child is going, neither trusting nor doubting. The child is undivided. Doubt is half, belief is half. A child is still total. Whole.

Hey Jacob...
Nice explanation of the essential and non-essential properties! BTW, what is "apocalyptic translation"?
GTW

Richard Aberdeen.

You've got a few screws loose.

Do you think the forefathers of the United States would agree with you?

Do you think Roosevelt of Ben Franklin would agree with you?

Your insane!

They are in fact "ILLEGAL" because they are not LEGAL! GET IT!

America for Americans! Its sell-outs like you who are causing the American Job market to become totally service oriented and the median job pay continously goes down because of the watering down of the available workers.

YOUR KILLING THE COMMON AMERICAN WITH YOUR RHETORIC YOU SPONGE!

(((((((((((( Peace-Love-Rock-n-Roll-n-Wrap, Mitt ROMNEY, For Prez, 2008 Ya! )))))))))))))

May Lord Krishna have mercy on you all. He alone can offer you eternal salvation.

sarva dharmaan parithyejya maamekam sharanam vraja |
Aham thwaam sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyaami maa shuchah ||

Forsake all dharma (religions) and surrender unto me alone. I will absolve you of all sins and give you salvation. Do not grieve.

-- Bhagavad Gita 18:66

Doubt is acceptable but this does not mean that everyone should do so. Questioning is the right and responsibility of those who have questions, but not a requirement for all. To call out the one who does not question is as prejudiced as to disrespect the one who does question. To each his own according to his Faith and understanding in the present moment. Jesus said to Doubting Thomas, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." For us who believe without seeing it is not only a blessing, it is a privilege and a joy. The further along our journey the less doubt and the more faith accomplishes. To question and doubt is sometimes to go back words. For Jesus also said that the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. That kind of unquestioning faith is something to behold and it should be protected as it is a benefit to us all.

Atheist have you found your Holy grail yet? Do you have a sample of Dark Matter or proof of dark energy?

Viejita –

I figured you weren’t trying to pigeonhole all atheists when you said “” but I felt the need to make it clear that atheists did not typically go from one extreme to the other.

Regarding “some of us need a focus for the gut feeling.” I understand that, but these elaborate stories (Jesus, Moses, Muhammad) that people create around their Gods don’t make them factual. Yet people are taught that they are factual and will fight and die to defend the facts of their respective stories.

Chip,
I think that besides our use of certain terms, we basically agree. There certainly are different gradations of atheism, deism and agnosticism, and I do appreciate you clarifying to which categories you were referring. I tend to use the vernacular rather than the specialized meanings.

...Although there may well be people who believe in Saturnian unicorns; the study of religion has taught me that people will buy into all kinds of unlikely stories if they're marketed well.
We tend to assume (language-wise) that when someone says they are agnostic and does not specify about what, then they must be talking about religion. I'm not sure we use the word atheist in any other context besides religion.

BTW, I am not an agnostic myself. Far from it -- I am Catholic.

"My point here is that, as commonly understood based on long usage and etymology, the word atheist indicates the absence of a god, while agnostic is the absence of knowledge."

I understand that, and my point is that belief and knowledge are not the same thing. They are different categories that aren't mutually exclusive. The dictionary definitions show a great deal of bias and don't actually fit the etymology. You are either gnostic or agnostic, AND theist or atheist. Claiming agnosticism doesn't exempt you from defining yourself in the other category.

It would be logically inconsistent if you applied that logic to anything outside of religion.
It cannot be proven that there are or are not invisible unicorns dancing on the rings of Saturn, and definitive knowledge of their existence or non-existence is impossible to obtain, yet you wouldn't claim that you're agnostic about invisible Saturnian unicorns now would you? To apply the logic of the dictionary definition of agnosticism consistently, you'd have to claim to be agnostic about any and all claims that are impossible to prove or disprove no matter how unlikely they are to be true, yet no one does that. To do so with the god claim is simply illogical and inconsistent with the way we define belief in any non-religious fantastical claim.

E-Fave
There are many ways that people reach the conclusion that there is or is not a god, I only meant to comment on one.
As to how mythology enters into one's sense of the divine, I think humans are more comfortable with stories and analogies than we are with unknowable abstractions. To put it another way, some of us need a focus for the gut feeling. Even most non-religious people believe in the power to do good, they just aren't as comfortable with the stories.

I use the atheism in the sense that it is cited in the OED:

[French atheisme, from Greek atheos without God, denying God, formed as A- + THEOS god]
Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of God or gods (opp. theism, formerly deism) Also, godlessness.

atheist: [French atheiste or Italian atheista, from Greek atheos, see preceeding entry]
1 noun. a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of God or gods. Opp theist (formerly) deist.
2 noun. A person who denies God morally, a godless person.

The prefix A- represents the Greek a- used before a consonant for an- without, not(see AN-) as in abyss, apetalous. A productive prefix of negation and privation with words of Greek and also Latin origin, as agnostic, amoral.

agnostic: [from A- + GNOSTIC] noun. A person who holds the view that nothing can be known of the existence of God or of anything beyond material phenomena. Also, a person who is uncertain or non-committal about a particular thing.

gnostic [ecclesiastical Latin gnosticus from Greek gnostikos, from gnostos, known]
adjective. Relating to knowledge; cognitive; intellectual.

the- combining form, see theo- [Greek from theos god] of or pertaining to God or gods.

My point here is that, as commonly understood based on long usage and etymology, the word atheist indicates the absence of a god, while agnostic is the absence of knowledge. The tone taken by most of those who call themselves atheists is one of certainty, I apologize if this is not what some of you mean. Language is our only way of communicating; I can't even see your facial expression in this forum, so vocabulary is all we've got.

Then there was the "Christian" Jerry FGalwell who is quoted as stating: "Christians, like soldiers and slaves, ask no questions.

He was all about power over his followers, politics, and self-enrichment.

If you do not question everything, you are not a thinking human being. The moment you question FAITH, you have questioned the basis of your religion. The you have become a realist. All religions have continuously violated their stated dogmas.
Take the Mormons: one article of faith says that there must be freedom of religion, but they killed a splinter group to the last man. They can also baptize you posthumously, if someone cares to
document a relationship, even if those persons were devout believers in another faith.
All religions, excluding philosophies, are designed to further power, influence and wealth of their proponents. And, some will modify the dogmas to suit the times.
And some born-again-Christians wage war, deceive and do anything for political advantage. They will go to church and then ignore the teachings for expedience sakes the remaining days of the week.
Hypocrites all.

There is no such thing as evidence sufficient to prove god. The specifics of god rule that out. Name the miracle so great that only god could do it.

There is no evidence so weak it will not be attributed to god. Now take a knot on a tree or a stain on a subway wall, grilled cheese sandwich even having the image of the virgin Mary. The ones with brains...

God and devil define each other. Both must exist for either to exist. God has been declared to be almighty. That means might, the ability to do work without limit. Therefore god cannot be identified because the infinite is beyond man. If man can imagine it man can do it, eventually. Devil is not almighty and therefore can be identified.

Devil has been identified!!!!!!!!

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul Chuck did. Mikey likes it.

Just to make it a bit clearer, here's a simple chart for you:

"I know there is a god" = gnostic theist
"I think there is a god" = agnostic theist
"I know there isn't a god" = gnostic atheist
"I don't think there is a god" = agnostic atheist

See how that works?

Anonymous, "Wake up CHIP. There's under. There's over. And there's through. There are those who bang the wall and declare there is a god. There are those who bang the wall and say there is no god. There are the ones with brains who say there is no way of knowing."

You've created a false dichotomy there, and I can't say you're especially impressing me with your brains as a result. There are few things more obnoxious than an atheist being a bigot towards other atheists. You're either a theist, or you're not a theist (atheist). You can't be both.

There are two reasons someone might be an atheist. It will either be because they claim to know for a fact that there's no god, in the same way a believer claims to know there is one (a gnostic atheist, aka strong atheism), or it'll be because they aren't convinced that there's a god due to lack of evidence (agnostic atheist, aka weak atheism). I've never met a gnostic atheist. I've met hundreds of agnostic atheists (and am one myself). If sufficient evidence were ever presented, I, like every other atheist I know, would change their position. The odds any of us place on the likelihood of that ever happening is irrelevant. The difference between you and I is that I don't pretend to be something other than what I am to try to appear more palatable to believers and escape the stigma of atheism. It would be disingenuous. You're not a theist, ergo, you are an atheist.

The term "agnostic" wasn't even coined until the late 1800's. Can you guess what they were known as for the few thousand years prior? I'll bet you get it on your first try.

Hi, Viejita - for the record, I know many atheists, including me, who did NOT grow up in a fundamentalist environment. In fact most of those I know did not.

I was brought up culturally Catholic - a lazy believer. Religion didn't provide much and didn't get in the way much. Then there's my friend the agnostic since age 10, when a Mormon proselytizer came to the door and inadvertently revealed how outlandish a religion’s supernatural story could sound when hearing about it the first time as a smart kid instead of as a innocent babe. He’s considers himself an atheist now, since he’s learned how shaky Christian history is

I also agree that it seems some people are born with a gut feeling that there is a God (or that there is not). I wonder, though, how the whole Jesus story then gets superimposed on that simple gut feeling. How does that whole complex, supernatural narrative related to the feeling that there is some divine presence in the universe?

Wake up CHIP. There's under. There's over. And there's through. There are those who bang the wall and declare there is a god. There are those who bang the wall and say there is no god. There are the ones with brains who say there is no way of knowing.

Your definition of god makes god impossible to identufy. There is no miracle so great that only god could do it including creation.

Sold your soul yet? http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul and hurry. Souls are so cheap people are having to pay to get the being that lives in fire to take theirs. The big money goes to those who lead the most people to him.

Hello. My name is Charles. I be an uncle's monkey.

http://www.talkorigins.org

Why does a supposedly reputable newspaper publish this stuff?

Viejita writes "By the way, I think that out of all of us, the agnostics are the most rational: They admit that we just can't know."

Congratulations on holding the exact same view as almost all atheists. Agnosticism and atheism are in no way mutually exclusive. There are few things I find quite as disingenuous as self-proclaimed agnostics who misuse the term as a way of pointing at atheists and saying "I'm not with those people." If you aren't convinced there's a god and claim you can't know (which is a thoroughly rational position) then you're not a theist. If you're not a theist, you're an atheist. It's binary, not a sliding scale. Sorry to break it to you.

WOW < ----- ?: +)' well Blow Me Down! Yoo Too

WOW

Mr Mark et al

Your post points out an essential difference between those who believe in some deity or other, and those who do not. At its very heart, faith is neither rational or irrational, but more like a gut feeling. You can't talk anyone into a different inherent sense of why things are the way they are: For some, G-d's work in the world is obvious, for others His non-existence is equally obvious.

YOU CAN DO VERY LITTLE TO CHANGE ANOTHER PERSON'S GUT FEELING. I can describe why G-d's existence is obvious to me, but I can't make you agree that it is obvious. For believers, it is not a choice, but a feeling that they either carry from childhood or come upon gradually in life. It is interesting to me that so many atheists and agnostics come from highly dogmatic childhoods, where they may have been schooled in a faith that did not hold up to questions.

By the way, I think that out of all of us, the agnostics are the most rational: They admit that we just can't know. Unfortunately most agnostics consider this kind of a forum to be a waste of time -- we don't know the answer, they feel, so why discuss it? -- so that point of view is not well represented here.

Granted, many believers take an irrational, one might even say willfully ignorant view of physical evidence that contradicts their chosen dogma. But don't tar us all with that brush.

Ah, Hello "World-View"! Whi is this Walken's dood?

I think you should consider Christopher Walken's candidacy, Jacob. Now *that* would be something. :)

Yo Yo writes:

"The faithful even come to see it as a wonderful thing to suspend disbelief and make the leap of faith."

It would be one thing to make a leap of faith once, but as others have pointed out, the faithful must make their leap of faith every day of their lives...and often multiple times in a single day.

Such is the hopelessness of the fantasy based religious life.

The religious expect belief in God to get them everlasting life,instead of death.
Because such an idea defies credibility,faith has to be dragged in to give the idea some sort of plausibility, some sort of respectability.
The faithful even come to see it as a wonderful thing to suspend disbelief and make the leap of faith.How beautiful.How trusting.How holy. How virtuous to be able to turn a blind eye to reality and one's senses,and buy into magic.
It brings a tear to my eye.

Very interesting discourse. I am not sure why we should not question everything that we are told about religion and faith by our parents, community and the texts. If we were expected to be blind followers, then there was no need for us to have intelligence. If I tell you that God appeared to me in the form of a brilliant lightning and told me such and such, I am sure you will not only question everything that I said, but probably will curse me to hell. So why not question everything that others have told you.

We know a bit more about the laws of nature now - which in all likelihood is the laws of God - to understand what God might want us to do. So why not modify our thoughts and concepts in ways that to one seems most logical and confirms with the natural laws of nature rather than believe that God made man out of clay and breathed into his nostrils - something that would not conform to the laws of nature as we know it.

So folks, wake up, smell the coffee. Figure out for yourself what God may want us to do.

“And Jesus said unto him, ‘Verily I say unto thee: Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.’ ”

Luke 23:43

This verse reminds me of one of the best descriptions of faith, here we have a criminal who is nailed on a cross expressing his faith in Christ. How profound!

When we hear Jesus speak these words we might say to ourselves, I wish it was that easy. After all this man was a criminal and was hanging on the cross next to Jesus. He was sentenced to death for crimes worth dying for while he was hanging next to an innocent man. He did not poke fun of Jesus like the other criminal on the cross, but rather said to Jesus, remember me when you enter into your kingdom. And with that act of faith Jesus said to him, you will be with me in paradise. Now there are many good people in the world who have not done any crimes worthy of death, but Jesus spoke of many who seemed to be okay people and said they were lacking the gifts of the kingdom of heaven. For example, the rich young ruler obeyed all the law and commands, but Jesus said he was lacking in one thing, he was lacking in selling his wealth to the poor and then follow Christ, this he could not do because he was a wealthy man. Others that Christ said would not enter the kingdom of heaven were many who appeared to be religious on the outside. And Christ said, their hearts were far from the Lord. Here are people who have apparently lived good lives, but will fall short when it comes to entering the kingdom of heaven. And here we have a criminal on a cross, about to be the first to go with Jesus to paradise. So why is this? I believe that this is sincerely a matter of the heart, when the thief on the cross was truly sorry and repentant from what his sins were, while other people have never gotten to the place where they can say to Jesus, you are my everything, you are my all and all, I need nothing but you, you alone I place my trust. I will follow you even to the point if that means I have to lose everything in return, and even at death I can say to my Lord, I love you and I thank you for the opportunity to worship you with the time I had, now Lord as I leave this earth I ask you to receive my spirit in peace, truth and forgiveness. And I have chosen to live my life on earth for you to the very end of my life in complete faithfulness to you.

Im an atheist. I have no problem with mr colsons beliefs. As long as people of faith do good things no one should have a problem with what or who they believe in.
In regards to Illegals.
They corrupt american jobs by being exploited. They break the laws in coming here.
My wife immigrated here at much expense and time to both of us. Why do we get cheated?
Guest worker? Doing jobs americans dont want?
If they cut your wages to a third of what you make now, would you still work that job?
Thats what will happen with the guest worker program. Employers will cut the wages to the point where Importation of labor will be the best way to fill those jobs.

Seems like a small step for mankind that the faithful are finally allowed to have doubts about their faith.Hurrah I say.Not a day too soon.
As I understand it,in the old days one would have been tortured until one changed one's mind and stopped doubting.
Can't do tht these days,of course.Not with the modern media waiting to pounce.
Faith is defined in my OED as complete trust or confidence;firm belief without logical truth.
Doubt is defined as uncertainty;undecided state of mind;an inclination to disbelieve.
Excellent.Lets hope that this doubt grows
into full blooded examination of the dubiousness of faith,which,when you really think about it,is rather silly in these enlightened times.
If doubt had been allowed into the minds of the 9/11 terrorists,the World Trade Center would still be standing .
Let's hear it for doubt,and more doubt,and doubt everlasting. Amen.

Mr Mark, it is funny that you make that imagination comment.

It does not take much imagination to exclude the possibility of a creator.

In fact, is just plain common sense to come to that conclusion

Mr Aberdeen-

Not sure what your assertions , or how they relate to this topic. The crux of the problem is the corruption in the culture and government of Mexico. They have numerous natural resources, but can't develop a culture/economy with rule of law that creates a middle class when the opportunity is there. It is not up to us to take in every single illegal alien that is poor so they can make ends meet. The problem is that the greedy corporations and others are exploiting the workers with no health benefits and are passing the costs to us through the social safety net. The whole thing boils down to this:

People bypassed our rules to come here, and our government did the "wink wink" thing letting them in. We SHOULD legalize those that are here, but with the caveat that our borders are enforced and we stop, take a breath, and see how many more people we need/can handle/etc for the good of our society and our culture.

This has nothing to do with race, but with what is good for our country. That counts before anything else, and for you to pull the race card out is really disgusting. Did you take lessons for Jesse?

"I think you can intellectually come to the position that there is a God because no other explanation for reality of the universe satisfies."

Have you learnt the 'other' (the one that we came to through evidence) explanation?
Because the people who tend to say the above tend not to know enough about it to judge it's validity.

A good introduction is available at www.talkorigins.org

Next time please be more specific and say exactly what you find unsatisfying. Then maybe there will be some people here who can speak directly to your concerns.

Thanks

What is going on in our nation today regarding so-called "illegal aliens" is exactly the same thing as in the 1950's and 60's, when civil rights demonstrators were told to go home and mind their own business, because they were "breaking the law". This term "illegal alien" has got to go. Americans of conscience should all write to their various newspapers and demand that their papers stop printing such racist terms and demand that they withhold any column or article that attempts in anyway, to degrade and dehumanize a class of people.

If you try to write in to a typical U.S. newspaper and use the "n-word" for African-Americans, "the c-word for Chinese" or the k-word for Irish Jews", it will be deleted and the same should hold true for the oft-repeated "illegal alien". Americans of conscience should unite together and demand that Lou Dobbs and the rest of his ilk be removed from the public airwaves and that CNN be fined for defamation, bigotry and public indecency. We are fast moving towards our own American apartheid.

Modern racists cloak their bigotry in the guise of "upholding the law", which is exactly the same excuse that slave holders and Jim Crow sympathizers used for generations in "defense" of raping, torturing and murdering people with darker skin than themselves. "Go sit in the back of the bus because it's the law".

Sincerely,
Richard Aberdeen
292 Trails Circle - Nashville, TN 37214
615-889-1669 - 800-992-8084
www.FreedomTracks.com - richard@freedomtracks.com

Chuck writes:

" I think you can intellectually come to the position that there is a God because no other explanation for reality of the universe satisfies."

Oh, ye of little knowledge and imagination.

Calling the devil god does not make the devil god but does make him happy. He's such a happy little devil. The big money goes to those who lead the multitudes to hell. The big money turns little devils into big ones, gods. Keep the faith for hell isn't half full yet.

I guess most of my life I believed in God and that Jesus is who He is, but for a goodly portion of my life I believed that Jesus died for everyone except me, well close but no cigar so to speak. It is really a shame that so many people that call themselves christians don't have a clue what it means to be a christian. It is to be thankful, it definitely doesn't mean that everything in this life is going to be honky-dory, it may be just the opposite. The so-called gospel of prosperity which is really big here in America is really a crock. There are people that are christian in their heart that don't believe in God and there are people that are not christian in their heart that do believe that Jesus is God Incarnate, which one of these do you think that God would smile upon, I will give you a hint, God is not an egomaniac like a lot of people think that He is. When Jesus was up on the cross, He said, "Father forgive them", them means us, us means humanity, you people that call yourselves christians maybe should actually take that to heart, as I have said before God is a searcher of hearts and minds not religious affiliations or lack thereof. Any belief that is forced on anyone is not a belief, Jesus forced Himself on no one, that is not to say that some people through the AD ages have not tried to force Him on people, well they were wrong, Jesus is to be offered and what He taught was definitely as the apostles said, "These are hard sayings". Well hopefully something to think about. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

“It is not as a child that I believe and confess Jesus Christ. My hosanna is born of a furnace of doubt.”

--Fyodor Dostoevski