Charles W. "Chuck" Colson is founder of Prison Fellowship, a Christian outreach ministry to the prison population of this country, as well as to ex-prisoners and crime victims. The "On Faith" panelist's daily radio commentary, BreakPoint, is aired daily on over a 1,000 radio outlets nationwide. Colson also is a syndicated columnist, lawyer, and author of 25 books, most recently The Faith (2008). He served as special counsel to the late President Richard M. Nixon (1969-73). After pleading guilty to a Watergate-related charge of obstruction of justice in 1974, Colson served seven months of a one to three-year federal prison sentence. His 1973 Christian conversion was documented in the internationally best-selling book and film, Born Again. He founded Prison Fellowship in 1976. In 1993, Colson was awarded the Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion and donated the $1 million prize to Prison Fellowship. In the last 28 years, Colson has visited more than 600 prisons in 40 countries and, with the help of nearly 50,000 volunteers, has built Prison Fellowship into the world's largest prison outreach, serving the spiritual and practical needs of prisoners in 93 countries including the U.S.
Close.
Charles W. "Chuck" Colson
Founder, Prison Fellowship ministry
Charles W. "Chuck" Colson is founder of Prison Fellowship, a Christian outreach ministry to the prison population of this country, as well as to ex-prisoners and crime victims.
The "On Faith" panelist's daily radio commentary, BreakPoint, is aired daily on over a 1,000 radio outlets nationwide.
more »
"Having said that, however, in the eyes of most serious Christians, Mormonism is a long way from mainstream. It is totally inconsistent with historic Christian orthodox belief in its view of the Bible, for example. Mormons add to the Bible the Book of Mormon. Christians on the other hand, regard the Bible as the sole authority for faith and practice."
And how's that working out for you, Chuck? All sunshine and roses so far?
"There are many other serious theological differences between Mormonism and orthodox confessing Christianity. For instance, they believe there are many gods. As Brigham Young's Journal of Discourses says: 'How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods' (7:333)."
Arcane: Journal of Discourses is not canonical. Even if it were, you overlook that LDS scripture is very clear the God the Father is the creator of our spirits, and Christ the Son is the redeemer of same. It is God to whom we pray in the name of the Son, and no other beings--not saints or Mary or pope or anyone else--are our objects of worship.
"They also believe as Joseph Smith writes, 'Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.' In other words, man’s basic intelligence was not created by God and is as old as God’s."
Source on this one? This sounds like a boiled down version of what is a much more complex doctrine than you allow for here. Yes, we believe that humankind was pre-existent. We also do not believe in creation ex-nihilo. So for us to say that God is the father or creator of our spirits is to say that he organized matter just as matter was used to organize the rest of creation: what was this matter? Don't know, but Intelligence seems like a pretty good handle in the meantime. Maybe we should all try to live up to that.
But let's use an analogy: say intelligence is like ovum and sperm--the basic ingredients of the creation of a physical body. These ingredients exist in the parents as cells long before they become sperm, egg, and body. Before that, they split off from other cells. So they existed, in a preterspecific form, in the parents. Even better, then, call Intelligence "cell." To say that Mormons believe we are as old as God as separate, thinking beings is isogetical. Our potential existence is as old as God, but only because whatever eventually made us us existed in some way in God.
In sum: we were always a twinkle in God's eye. I don't know about you, but that makes me feel even more worshipful and reverential than the idea that I was shazaamed together one afternoon when there was nothing on tv.
The larger point, here: Chuck's a good man, obviously, and I thank him for his prison work. But Evangelical Christianity, and now by extensive association the rest of the Christian world, are fed retarded versions of mormonism from their own in-house curricula that make us sound like scientologists. Seriously, people: go to the sources. I think you'll be very surprised by what you find.
"Most Christians recognize that we live in a pluralistic culture which guarantees religious liberty. We would therefore oppose any ethic to stigmatize any religious group and would defend their rights to fully participate in every aspect of public life, including elections. While we have profound differences, there are no grounds for discrimination."
Beautiful, Chuck. "Mormons are weird, and definitely not Christian, but let's not hold that against them." Ay caramba.
By the acts of which Pope should Christianity and its Bible be judged? Even Luther, Calvin and their contemporaries believed in witch burning. Should their Bible be asked to answer for their bizarre interpretations? Athiests would have us believe so.
A similiar comparison typifies Mormon Criticism. People who write about 'Mormonism' consistently fail to allow the Book of Mormon to speak for itself. Mormonism as we know it is a religion of parts borrowed from other contemporary religions of the day, including Freemasonry, Swedenborgism, Millerism, Campbellism and even Shakerism. These were the sources used by Sidney Rigdon, a radical Baptist minister of the Campbellite Restoration Movement, to influence Joseph Smith, Jr. as he was desperately searching for the means to create a new church. But if objective minds will but take the time to actually read the Book of Mormon they will find a friend to Evangelical Christianity and the Christian Gospel. I am not a member of any 'Mormon' church and find their doctrines to be in diametric conflict with the teachings of the Book of Mormon. But the fault does not lie in what the Book of Mormon teaches which anyone can discover if they will but take time to read the book. In fact the Book of Mormon is Mormonism's staunchest critic. RLM
The problem debating politics with LDS members and Mitt Romney is that it is impossible to separate the presidential candidate from Mitt Romney the LDS Bishop / Stake Leader. Some non-LDS members don’t understand this, but anyone that’s grown up in the Church understands that the LDS faith pervades every aspect of family, work, politics, and even friends. The greatest risk to the LDS Church is that some media commenter actually does their homework and challenges Mitt Romney to some real questions of substance. Luckily most political “pundits ask Romney a tough question and he responds with an answer… usually an incorrect or incomplete answer in order to appease the inquirer, but what will happen when a true pundit calls his bluff. This far the Stephanopoulos interview came the closest with a follow-up segment correcting Romney on his own Mormon doctrine, but I fear it will get worse and worse. The LDS Church may one day be on the verge of becoming the new Scientology and Mitt Romney is our Tom Cruise.
The most rational basis for judging a politician is by his policies and political philosophy rather than stated religion. For example many of our Founding Father's were NOT orthodox Christians, yet they governed in a manner more consistent with Biblical Christianity than many politicians today who have a stronger claim to orthodoxy.
Romney, when judged this way, has failed to govern according to principles compatible with either Mormonism or Evangelicalism. Until his recent, convenient, political "conversion" he experienced just before declaring his candidacy for President he espoused views on abortion and gay rights that are repugnant to both Mormons and Evangelicals.
The most rational basis for judging a politician is by his policies and political philosophy rather than stated religion. For example many of our Founding Father's were NOT orthodox Christians, yet they governed in a manner more consistent with Biblical Christianity than many politicians today who have a stronger claim to orthodoxy.
Romney, when judged this way, has failed to govern according to principles compatible with either Mormonism or Evangelicalism. Until his recent, convenient, political "conversion" he experienced just before declaring his candidacy for President he espoused views on abortion and gay rights that are repugnant to both Mormons and Evangelicals.
Again...I don't think you're trying to understand. It doesn't matter what "people" have as their conceptions of Heaven. What matters is Jesus' description, since HE knew and experienced what Heaven was like...and His description didn't have anything at all in common with the Mormon "concept" of Heaven...populating planets, etc.
And I didn't say anything about knowing WHERE Heaven is, did I?
No, cults use scripture out of context. Liberal churches use only one or two scriptures.You have no idea where Heaven is, do you? But that is not what my message is about.My message is about not condemming people to Hell because they have a different concept of Heaven. But, wherever Heaven is, no sin will be there.Only those who have had thier sins washed by the Blood of Christ will be allowed to dwell there.
The way you quote scripture one would think you'd actually believe it!
How can you say that nobody has an idea what Heaven is like when so much of the Bible and Jesus' teachings describe it to us? Are you suggesting that Jesus lied in His description of Heaven? Is Jesus was not describing Heaven in a truthful way then why do you profess to believe in anything He said and be called by His name?
Either you believe all of the Bible as Truth or you don't...but don't use parts of it to fit your needs and then discard the rest. That's what true cults do...use only the scriptures that back your views, discarding the true overall picture.
Hey Maryland, You are shooting from the hip!Mormons do have a different view on the nature of God. So do some Pentecostals. But, they do believe that Jesus was born of a virgin,was crucified for us. They believe that he rose from the dead & sits at the right hand of God the Father.They believe he is a living Christ.What a stupid comment you made about Easter Sunday too.A lot of churches have a sunrise service or something like that.You have no idea about what they believe.As a matter of fact, you probably don't know much about the so-called mainline Protestant denominatios either.You may think you do, but you would shocked if you would actually check out what they teach at the Seminaries of these churches. A good example is the Episcopal Church. A bunch of Apostates! Also, Mormons are more well read in the Bible than most "mainline" Church members! And about that belief in heaven,nobody has an idea of what glory will look like or where it is.So, don't be assigning people to Hell because of thier concept of Heaven. Paul says that we see through a dark glass,but, face to face we will see clearly. Let's just let our Heavenly Father reveal His secrets in his own good time.
I am just wondering...because of what the LDS has taught about the origin of the races, especially, the African-American...if he and other leaders of their church would support a black President or, even more so, a black leader for the LDS church overall?
"In my father's house are many rooms, if it were not so I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you."
John 14:2 NIV
These words of Jesus describe Heaven...one of many references made to Heaven in the Bible. If Mormons are to be considered a "Christian" denomination, and to have the name of Jesus Christ as part of their name, then how does their belief validate the teachings of Christ and the Bible?
The Mormons believe that their reward is not a Heaven as taught in the Bible...instead that they their reward will be to inhabit and populate another planet.
Either Jesus taught the truth or He didn't!!!...the Mormons seek to blend in with the mainstrean religions... but all one has to do is learn their teachings and compare those to the Bible to know the difference!
The fundamental Christian beliefs are enumerated in the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed. The Nicene Creed was written in AD 325 at the Council of Nicea.
A Creed is a short statement of belief.
I saw a TV clip the other day where one of the Mormon leaders said that he did not understand the Nicene Creed. He did not say what he did not believe.
All Christians believe:
INCARNATION:
Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. (Christmas) She became pregnant by the Power of Holy Spirit.
(Feast of the Incarnation)
DEATH:
Jesus was crucified, died and buried. (Good Friday)
RESURRECTION:
Jesus came back to life. (Easter Sunday)
ASCENSION into HEAVEN:
Jesus ascended into Heaven 40 days after Easter. (Ascension Day)
As I understand Mormon belief, they have a different understanding of the nature of Jesus, and the fundamental difference is the Incarnation. If that's ture, then stating "not Christian" about Mormons is true. I noted that a local Mormon church was empty on Easter Sunday. That's a day when all other Christian Churches are overflowing. (Perhaps they were meeting elsewhere, I don't know.)
So, these are some reasons why people ask if Mormons are Christians. They use the same name, but have a fundamentally difference concept of Jesus' nature.
True to form, my Evangelical brothers & sisters love to do "research" on Mormons & what they believe. Countless times I have been to the Home Bible studies & in Sunday School observing the big easel board listing the various "cults". That list seems to get bigger as time goes by. I agree that some are dangerous cults. I will not name them here, however I always see Mormons headlining the list. Recently, Pentecostals & Catholics have made the list. I guess that is the "They are without a doubt, going to hell list!" Scipture tells me that those who have not had thier sins washed by the Blood of the Lamb are hell bound. PERIOD!! Another thing.To win someone over to you, you don't beat them on the head with a Bible. You show them love & respect. I have not seen this in any of these threads posted so far. Ask a Mormon why he attends the Temple and what it means to him. Find out what the Book of Mormon says about the Savior.Try reading it.And don't say God does not want you to read it. God does not want you to read some of the secular crap that we all been guilty of reading. You don't have to accept it as God's Word, but the message of Christ's love and redemption is proclaimed throughout in it's pages. There is nothing in it that contradicts the Bible.The Book of Mormon was written for a Christian society.Only a Christian would understand it's message as being relevant in this time.Therefore the name, "Latter-Day Saints". Anyway,I don't mean to preach, just want to understand others point of view and be able to relate, and not to make fun of that I know little about.
big d - i just have to say, it takes a BIG DUDE to admit a mistake and im impressed that you came back, and called attention to your own tiny misunderstanding- ill be calling you big d- but ill be thinking big dude from now on-(unless youre a woman-then its big dudette)
Have any of you heard of the Mormon doctrine of the Blood Atonement? This allowed one to "spill the blood" of another when that person has committed an unpardonable sin. They won't tell you about that.
What about the Mountain Meadows Massacre? Google it...see if this sounds like a true religion of God or a cult...similar to the Branch Davidian or Heaven's Gate.
Do they ever talk about that?
There are a lot of eye-opening books out there by former Mormon churchmembers...a good one is "BEYOND MORMONISM" by James Spencer, a former elder.
"THE TRUTH ABOUT MORMONISM" by Hugh Pyle is another.
There's a movie called "THE GOD MAKERS"...if you really seek the truth do yur homework and then judge for yourself.
It all really boils down to what Jesus said "I
(ONLY I) am THE way, THE truth and THE life...no one one comes to the Father but through ME"...anyone that teaches differently does not preach the truth. Religion isn't what God wants...He wants our love and our loyalty. With that in mind there was no need to create another religion...God desires a relationship with us on an individual basis. And we can have that only through faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
I'm not sure I understand how you can believe it was not an attempt to outlaw Mormonism. Polygamy was not illegal until Mormons were practicing it. The Edmunds/Tucker act and Reynolds decision made it illegal for them to practice part of their religion after it was already in place.
In the Edmunds/Tucker act the government decided to deny Mormon women - whom they were trying to protect - the right to vote - in order to limit the voting rights of the Mormon people. (Note that Mormon women had the right to vote before this.) They made Mormon women testify against their husbands whether they wanted to or not. Then they confiscated the Church's property and rented it back to them so they would have no money. Then they outlawed the perpetual immigration fund so that no more Mormons would come to the U.S. Then they abolished the Nauvoo Legion and any military ability of people who were now way out in the desert to protect themselves from military action on the part of the U.S. government.
All of these provisions were aimed at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - the Mormon church - and no other group. And yet, you say, the Edmunds Tucker act was not an attempt to outlaw Mormonism? I'm just surprised the Mormon people didn't secede from the Union.
As to the reference about ten virgins, I think the idea there is that if you marry someone who has not been married before - a virgin in those days - and this was speaking at a time when polygamy was practiced - then you are not committing adultery because they are obviously not anyone else's wife. It seems more a reminder not to commit adultery than anything else. And since the church does not practice polygamy now it is a moot point.
anyway can any of ya'll answer some quick questions for me..
1.) why can't I have more than one* wife?
2.) if I belong to a group of individuals like the Mormons and they respect me and treat me good while we enjoy worshipping Christ the Messiah, then why would that be terrible?
3.) how many Mormons does it take to elect a President??
4.) why can't we all spend more time praising Christ the Messiah instead of bickering over who does it better?
5.) oh and why don't Church of Christ listen to music?? King David danced so hard his clothes fell off, I personally couldn't dance that hard, but so what??
6.) why are Mormons any diffrent than all the other sects of Christianity lead be 'Elders' that believe their Dogma is more holy?
me personally I think that we should focus more on the actual TEACHING of CHRIST than the MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY approach
If I'm way off base with these assumptions and questions then please let me know, I just know I read the WORD and take it on FAITH, if there is a better SYSTEM out there then Let me know!!
*that is assuming I could even consider having more than one woman in my life who is willing to love me!! KING SOLOMON ANYONE???
what is that ECLATi crap?? I can't even understand that guy...all I wanted to say was really folks?? Really?? We are going to keep going around in circles on a subject that will not see any definant(sp) answers? The reason all of ya'll will keep shouting at eachother is because your minds are made up...scream all you want I hear only blahblah blahblah...If we as Christians spent more time following Christ the Messiah instead of screaming my God is better than your god....ya know i'll stop because it's not even going to help...
I do however want to ask Mr. Jacob Whatever what is all the nonesense about ECLATi really about how old are you..??
What about the claim that the Native Americans are descended from a lost tribe of Israel? But doesn't DNA testing prove that false?
What about the Gold tablet? We certainly have the Dead Sea Scrolls to prove the writings of the Bible match ancient manuscripts...so where is the Mormon equivalent? If there was such a thing would it not be on proud display for the world to see?...or could it be all a hoax?
I really wish people would not use the word "evangelical" when what they really mean is "fundamentalist". There is a big difference, especially to those of us who consider ourselves to be evangelicals.
It is fundamentalists who are seen as "orthodox"; they see mainstream Christianity as a threat to traditional understanding of the Bible, and believe in strict interpretation and follow-through. It is a movement that was started in direct response to what was perceived by some as liberal trends in their churches.
Evangelicals on the other hand, believe in the Bible's authority in matters of faith and practice. A big part of the evangelical's life is dedicated in some way to helping the less fortunate at home or abroad.
I find it very interesting for people in these comments try to prove each other wrong or right with scriptures and their own theological differences. Then that garbage about Spaulding... dont make me laugh. What a load of garbage. Spauldings book was released AFTER the Book of Mormon, and they have NO similarities. I think its so funny, and ironic, that books 5x the size of the Book of Mormon are written to prove it wrong. And yet, Mormonism remains growing faster and faster each year. All these arguments about "The Bible Jesus" and the "Mormon Jesus" are rediculous. Who is anybody to truly define who Jesus was or is, unless they have had personal communication with Him? It is MERELY a difference of view, thats all. So all you evengelists, you have no ground, and *news flash* are falling more and more each year to the worlds trends.
I am just curious as to who ordained Evangelism as "orthodox" Christianity? Further, why is it whenever the subject of the LDS in the overall Christian realm is brought up, an Evangelical leader is sought after for the answer? The LDS Church is the 4th largest religious denomination in the country just behind the Catholics, Methodists, and Baptists. Of the top 4, all have decreasing memberships except the LDS faith which grows each year. The LDS church is not a charismatic faith, but one that bases its sermons, teachings, and culture on what it believes are doctrinal truths. It is not the "show" which many other Christian churches put on in their sermons that is causing an increase in membership both here in the U.S. and worldwide, but a sincere, consistent message of faith and love. Based on pure numbers, Catholicism as the most followed Christian faith is the bench mark of orthodoxy. That being the case, then all Protestant denominations as well as the LDS faith should be viewed as not being orthodox. I am LDS and frankly I don't want to be considered a Christian by the Evangelical standard, because it is an incorrect definition. A Christian is a disciple and follower of Jesus Christ, another definition of which is a saint. I am a Latter-Day Saint, a Christian, and no one with such unorthodox views as the Evangelical community will persuade me otherwise.
I empathize with the Mormon commenters' complaints about not being considered "Christian" by Evangelicals. But I'd empathize a lot more if Mormons didn't do the exact same thing themselves. There are a number of other (if rather smaller) sects that also believe in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, etc., but diverge from the Salt Lake church in certain other theological aspects. And LDS leaders and members insist that that those other sects are not "Mormon" and that no one (news media, etc.) should ever refer to them as such. That's some rich and creamy hypocrisy there.
It would be interesting if discussions about Mormons by non-Mormons began with beliefs Mormons hold in common with other Christians. Below is a list that I compiled.
• There is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things, which are in them.
• The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one eternal God.
• God created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness.
• God gave man, male and female, commandments that they should love and serve Him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.
• By the transgression of these holy laws man became sensual and devilish, and became fallen man.
• The Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in scripture, which have been given of him.
• He suffered temptations but gave no heed to them.
• He was crucified, died, and rose again the third day.
• He ascended into heaven, to sit down on the right hand of the Father, to reign with almighty power according to the will of the Father; that as many as would believe and be baptized in his holy name, and endure in faith to the end, should be saved--not only those who believed after he came in the meridian of time, but all those from the beginning, who believed in the words of the holy prophets.
• He suffered, bled and died on the cross to perform substutionary atonement for the sins of the world.
• Jesus Christ is Lord. He is both the Son of God and God the Son.
• There is no other name and no other way by which any individual may be saved other than through Jesus Christ.
• We enter into the gospel covenant and are saved by the preaching of the word and by the grace of God.
• We are justified before God by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
• Yielding lives to God's Holy Spirit, who enables us to obey His commands, progressively sanctifies us.
• All the gifts of the Spirit manifested in the New Testament church continue in God's church today.
• The Bible is God's word and is true and trustworthy within those parameters that the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy and the eighth LDS Article of Faith share.
• Jesus Christ will publicly and visibly return from heaven to establish his millennial kingdom on earth.
• The God of heaven is a God of love, and those who desire to be with him must also seek to be motivated in all their relationships by love.
• There is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God.
A couple of points. Mainstream Christians are churches that subscribe to the Trinity and the Council of Nicea. Anyone else is outside the mainstream. To give you an analogous chemical example of the Trinity. Water. Water is a gas, a liquid and a solid. Water is in every living thing and even in some non-living things. Steam is still H20. Water is still H20. Ice is still H20. Three manifestations of the same element. Trinitarian thought is that the same God is found in three elements: Spirit (Holy Spirit), Flesh (Jesus Christ) and Himself (Father). Same God three manifestations. My faith says that faith in Christ for salvation is all that is needed. As Christ told the rich young ruler in Mark 10, in telling him to sell all his possessions, is that you don't have to DO anything, just follow Me. The ruler thought he had to do something. He merely had to follow Christ. That is what mainstream Christianity teaches and that is our faith. And that is not the Mormon faith.
I respect Mormons for the lives many of them lead and for their family centric lives. I wholly agree that here in America, Mormons are free to practice their faith, evangelize, run for and be elected to office and live lives which are commendable. I am happy you're here and that you're happy in your faith. Be proud of your beliefs and be open about them. But you are something other than Christians in the classical sense. I don't agree that you've found the truth, but I have no problem with you following it and encouraging others to follow it. True Christians will tell you that each of us has to make any choices in that regard, and we are eternally responsible for those choices, and that I can't force you and should not force you to believe something you don't believe. True Christian faith dictates that I only tell you what I believe is true and let you decide for yourself.
Sue, please take your open mind and read Mormonism, Momma, and Me. Thelma Gear was a devout LDS with Direct heritage in your religion. It is a must read for someone like yourself who han an open mind. Does Mormonism coincide with the Bible, or is it indeed a altogether "different gospel" What constitutes a different gospel? The problem is you believe that Joseph Smith was picked to bring back or re start or whatever you want to call it, the Church. The Church never left. Jehovahs Witness's think they have the truth and they have their founder. Mary Baker Eddy was the founder of Christian Science those people thing they have the truth, same with Seventh Day Adventists, Unification Church, Bahaii Faith, etc. There is a guy in Texas now who says he is Jesus in the flesh. Google "Growing in Grace Ministries" The point is that you have given your devotion to a "man made" organization that says it speaks for God. You are no different than any of those other groups just mentioned. The true Church of Jesus Christ is made up of all who have received His Spirit and been born again. And we are all over the world. And if you have received Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then you are a part of the body of Christ as well. And for those who think God is too big to fit into "one religion", your argument is with Jesus, not me. He is the one who said " I am the way, the truth , and the life, no one gets to the Father apart from me. Only someone with the authority of God could and would say that. This is the key. Jesus is deity. God in the flesh. Unlike any other. He is the one that people stumble over by not accepting who He is. The son of God, and God, the son. "But you need to realize that Mormon teachings are way inconsistant with Biblical teachings, thus a "different gospel" and certainly a "different Jesus" The Bible is complete. It covers everything. There is no prophecy regarding, " Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that somewhere before Jesus comes back I'm going to reinstate the church that will be way different from what has already been written." But what was written, is a warning about false prophets leading many astray from the true gospel. It even warns about getting new revelation from an Angel of Light!! Hello????
Does it not bother you in the least that the way LDS was started was the very thing Paul warned about? Please read Mormonism , Momma , and Me. May the Holy Spirit of God lead you in His truth. In Love,
I cant quote the bible or the book of morman, but living in a state next to Utah, i feel alot of people are very wary of the" momites" and their crooked ways in business,I know alot of them most I have a hard time trusting. but Mitt seems like a allright sort of guy. Dont think i could vote for him though, better than a clinton or a whatever race for sure. THANKS g.b.
First of all I may not be a Scholar or expert on religion but the way I look at it is some questions in my mind need to be answered..
1. The context of the book of mormon supposedly written 2000 years ago uses 20th century context like calling abraham abe that context was not used till early 19th century..
2. Every Christian knows or has seen the picture of the Our Lord Jesus on the cross and know he rose three days later to his death he preached the words of god..But yet the Mormons claim they have gold tablets and no one can see them and only one person can read them with these magic spectacles.
3. In the bible Jesus is asked if their are more gods as a trap.. And he stated Yes it is as you say there are more gods but in context he said if you say so but in truth there is only One God one Lord and one Savior..
4. Be wary of wolves in sheeps clothing sent to devour the flock.. Hum could they be talking of false prophets and cults such as mormons really are..
5. But to be fair to the Mormons perhaps they can explain in detail what their basis or foundation of their faith trully is?
Many gods- Jesus said- " Know you not that you are gods? quoting the Old Testament. Jesus said to be perfect like your Father in Heaven is perfect. People have the capacity, through the saving power of God, to become as He is and do His works, not just now but throughout all eternity. God is perfect in every part of his character, attributes and nature, knowledge, power, etc. We are to " become " and "do " as He does. Sue
As far as Mr. Colson goes- is there anyone among us who has not done wrong or sinned? Is there anyone that God cannot forgive and change, and who cannot change his life around and do things that are good. I am very sure that he is doing much good in his life, while many people spend their time doing not much of value. Sue
That reference in Revelations refers to that book only. There are books in the Bible that were added after Revelations. You are speaking from a lack of knowledge. Would you get rid of John's writings toward the end of the NT? They were added after. The Revelation is one seperate book- don't add to that book,don't add anything to what Peter or Paul or Jesus said. But don't say -don't ever let God ever speak again-He is God- if He did speak again, don't you think he would have something to say that is equally relavant for today as is the Bible? Well the Book of Mormon is relavant and even has clearer warnings for what is going on for today, because it was keep to be brought forth today because of all of the unbelief that exists. It was written for our day- to give us the knowledge needed today. It wasn't written for the people of the book itself, but for some of their descendants and for us. It verifies that the Bible is true and that Jesus is the Christ. It warns us what will happen if we continue as a nation/s or an individual/s to not keep the commandments of God. It gives the history of what happened to those who formerly lived on this continent when they lived them and when they didn't and why most of them were finally destroyed. Can you judge a book that you have never read?
The Church started when Joseph went into the woods to pray about which church he should join. He saw the Father and the Son. Four years later he saw the resurected Moroni ( angel), who showed him where the records of his people were kept. They were sacred and could only be had by Joseph for pure reasons. He talked with Moroni once a year for 4 years, learning of the culture of the former inhabitants of this continent-from whom Moroni descended. When his motives for having the plates, which were gold and of value,were pure, he was given the power and gift to translate them. They were returned to Moroni, but others were allowed to see and testify of them and also allowed to meet Moroni, as witnesses to the truth.Out of the mouths of two or three witnesses God establishes the truth. They were returned to Moroni.
There are computerized studies of the BofM that indicate all we claim- there are many authors, it has exactly what it says- Hebrew and Egyptian origins. It is ancient. It has the device of chiasmus in it that is also in the Bible, and was unknown at the time Joseph translated it. There are many proofs, but no proof is stronger than reading a scriptural book and finding out for yourself if it is truth. You know truth by the Spirit and by obeying the truth. You don't need a witness by seeing the original plates. The Book of Mormon will testifty of its truth to you by the power of the Holy Ghost if you want to sincerely know about it.The Book of Mormon is a second witness that Jesus is the Christ- the law of witnesses! Sue
Do the Mormons not believe in the Bible as a book of truth? If not, then why do they use it as a companion with their own book?
If they do believe it as truth then why do they disregard the warning of Revelations 22:18...
"And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the words of prophecy written in this book: If anyone addsanything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book." NIV
Has anything in the Bible been proven to be untrue? Has any claim by the Mormon church ever proven to be untrue? Are the Native Americans truly a lost tribe of Israel as claimed?...or has DNA evidence disproved that?
Where are the golden tablets???
Joseph Smith saw an angel of light who gave him a new gospel. One different from the one Paul gave.
Galatians 1: 6-9 "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even though we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. If Joseph Smith had read his Bible he would have seen that he was not supposed to listen to that "Angel of Light" Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. 2 Cor: 11: 14 All who are reading this should check out the book by Thelma Gear. "Mormonism , Mama, and Me. Every Mormon should read it. Read the story of her meeting the real Jesus and not the one that Mormons believe in. The trouble with Mormons or Jehovah's witness's, or Seventh Day adventists, or Christian Scientists, or any of the other pseudo Christian groups, is that they have a founder with a "new revelation" seperate and different from what the scripture teach's. And we have been warned by Jesus about this happening. Read Matthew 24. When Jesus is asked about the signs of His soon return, the first thing He said was, "don't be misled" VS 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Study the History of Mormonism. If the foundation is corrupt, the whole organization is corrupt. It doesn't matter what it looks like on the outside, or how nice the people are. Strong words, but true. Please read Mormonism , Mama and Me. We are to test the spirits.
I dont think my last comment went through. I dont have anything against the mormons personally but for me going by other books than the bible would be wrong. But each person must search for the truth as they see it to be. I think it says in the bible to not go by any other books so for me the Mormon religion would not be the right one.
I have to wonder how many Jews, Romans, or other groups considered the early Christians mainstream. I seem to recall that Christ warned his apostles they would be persecuted and hated by the world, just as He was. If anything, being "mainstream" is evidence of not being a true follower of Christ.
As for the idea that the Book of Mormon is not needed because the Bible is the word of God, what is wrong with having more of the word of God? If the Gospel of Matthew is the word of God, why do we need the other three Gospels? If God wants to establish the truth with two or more witnesses, what is wrong with that? Would you pluck out one eye because the other is redundant? Doesn't having two eyes give us depth perception and greater perspective? I welcome truth from whatever source God gives it.
The Edmunds/Tucker Act was not a law that made Mormonism illegal, but a law that enforced the illegality of polygamy under the Supreme Court Reynolds decision.
The Edmunds-Tucker Act of 1887 passed as a supplement the Edmunds Law, which became law without the signature of President Cleveland. This new law included the following provisions:
A wife or wives were forced to testify against their husbands.
Witnesses did not have to be subpoenaed to appear in court.
Definite laws and punishments regarding immoralities (in the eyes of the law) were set forth.
All marriages performed were to be recorded with a probate court.
Probate judges were to be appointed by the President of the United States.
Woman suffrage was abolished (to restrict the Mormon elective franchise).
A test oath was reintroduced into Utah's elective process: voting, serving on juries, or holding public office were conditional upon signing the oath pledging obedience to and support of all anti-polygamy laws.
Utah Commission was to continue in charge of elections and was empowered to administer the qualifying oath.
The Perpetual Emigrating Fund Company was dissolved (in an effort to curtail the influx of foreign converts who added to Mormon voting strength.)
The Nauvoo Legion was abolished and all local military laws repealed.
To establish a "free public school education," the office of territorial superintendent of schools was replaced by a commissioner to be appointed by the Utah Supreme Court.
"To accomplish the destruction of Mormon political and economic power in Utah, the Church was disincorporated and its property escheated to the United States." The escheated Church property was to be used for the benefit of the common schools of the territory.
By June, 1888, the government had escheated from the Church property valued in excess of $800,000. The government had seized by this date most of the real property of the Church and then rented back to the Church part of this property.
The Church rented the Historian's office and the General Tithing office for $300 per month and the Gardo House for $70. These rentals were raised to $500 per month for the Tithing and Historian's offices and $450 for the Gardo House.
The Church farm was also leased to the Church. The President's office was placed in the charge of two marshals and Temple block was leased to the Church for $1.00 per month.
Most of the Church property had been transferred into the hands of trusted individuals and local organizations and it was estimated that the Church had about three million dollars worth of property when the Edmunds-Tucker Act was being discussed in Congress.
Prior to the issuance of the Manifesto, there were approximately 1.300 men who had been convicted in Utah for violating the anti-polygamy laws and a few others had been imprisoned in Idaho and Arizona. (There were 327 convictions before the end of 1887, 334 in 1888, and 346 in 1889.)
It is as difficult to measure the real magnitude of the effect of the anti polygamy acts upon the Mormons, as it is to measure the effects of a minority that "lived" the law of plural marriage on the majority that only supported it. (Larson, p. 216.)
The Mormon church did not abide by this law, and many polygamists were jailed under its provisions. It put the stranglehold on polygamy that the Federal government wanted, resulting in the 1890 abandonment of the practice of polygamy by the Mormon church. This abandonment was only a public display to appease the Federal government, as the Mormons continued to practice polygamy in Canada and Mexico officially until 1904. The Smoot hearings finally put an end to Mormon-sponsored polygamy in Salt Lake LDS church, but many fundamentalists never discontinued the practice.
In response to your question about the promise of ten virgins to Mormon men. This promise is contained in the Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:62, which reads: "And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified." This scripture is included in the Mormon's cannon of scripture today, and remains in full force.
I would consider the LDS church to be within the Christian realm. It just so happens that Christianity doesn't fit into a neat little box the way evangelical Christians want to always believe. Christianity crosses many spectrums of practice and doctrine from Unitarians to Orthodox to liberal Episcopalians to hardshell Baptists to Roman Catholics and so on. It seems Christians have the hardest time tolerating fellow Christians, never mind Muslims, Jews or atheists.
I have many thoughts after reading all of yours. But one thought stays the same, God sent all of us to live on this earth together and to see if we could get along and have a little joy at the same time. I sure hope we can. Being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ helps me realize that and I am a better person because of that doctrine - to have joy and get along. Personally, I don't believe we are mainstream. I agree with someone else's thoughts in that I don't want to be mainstream. Watch the news, I don't want to be a part of the mess some people have made! I want to have pure happiness and be make great friendships. I am doing a pretty good job of it too!
As a Presbyterian (USA) who is a Democrat, I've felt judged by the religious right to be hell-bound. I share that much with LDSers, with whom I've been friends, played sports, etc.
This is unfair overgeneralization for many LDSers, I'm sure, but in a way, I believe the protestant right wing evangelicals and the right wing LDSers deserve each other as bunkmates, insofar as they manifest their faith and values by supporting conservative political causes. Their support of Iraq-tied-to-Al-Qaeda lying, Mammon-worshipping, torturing, oppressive-regime-supporting, the-poor-and-imprisoned-neglecting, gun-loving, environment-be-damned-exploiting-and-polluting, global-warming-loving, intolerance-promoting, people-of-color-race-baiting politicians puts them in the same boat as far as I'm concerned. They're so focused on achieving stylized and selective personal righteousness, that they've completely lost their bearings and stopped listening to God and Jesus about what we are supposed to do in this world. I've got a log in my own eye, but folks, you've got a lot of explaining to do to God. Y'all should read Matthew 25:31-46 and quake in your spiritual boots. You're in danger, big danger, but most of you will keep smilin', I'm guessing. I hope not.
Fact is you can't ask an Italian person to educate you about the Chinese experience. Be the Chinese person who has had the experience for the last 30 years. Our mainstream Italian is going to propose to educate the Chinese person about what Chinese REALLY stand for based on what some other mainstream intellectual taught him to believe. Basic enough? enough said. Now shake it off and get back to reality!
In the absence of the experience how can anyone possibly make any claims to the truth? Can't happen. WHY? Simply because the truth is not available without first being preceeded by a sincere desire to want to know the truth. Perhaps, the verb "to seek" may require more than we presently give it. That is worth being introspective about!!
How much of this data have we acquired from other well intended, yet imperfect sources of truth? How much dependence have we placed on God for truth? Enough said!
There is nothing "Christian" that comes with attacking another person's belief. Nope! Not really! That level of contention is not really my idea of Christian. Nope! Not really! If you really want to know - have some courage and simply check it out for yourself with a focus on sincerity. It's not complicated - it's just NOT mainstream to actually do your own homework! Until then... no one can claim an objective investigation of the truth. Nope! Not really!
In the end "...by their fruits ye will know them."
(I read that somewhere..)
I'm with Romney because of HIS fruits.
That's the truth!
Good questions! Within the Christian church there are many denominatons, yes.. Coming from different backgrounds or areas (Presbyterian=Scotland, Anglican=England, Lutheran=German, Baptist=American) there are naturally minor differences in style of worship or baptismal customs but the core Bible based beliefs are the same. There are different translations of the Bible from different times, but each one is a translation of the original texts. They are saying the same thing. To study the original Greek texts or ancient copies shows that the Bible has stayed the same.
To study the Book of Mormon or POGP or other doctrines we see in its short lifespan numerous changes made to it. If the Bible is truely the Word Of God as it claims, then we need no other texts. The Bible warns against taking away or adding to its pages..
Mormonism is actually based on the plagiarized writings of a retired Methodist minister named Solomon Spalding. Spaulding mused himself writing fiction in King James English in the 1800's at a time when there was no TV or radio. Spaulding's writings were completed about 20 years prior to Joseph Smith supposedly finding the "Golden Plates" in Upstate New York. Many people from Spaulding's local community would gather in Spaulding's front yard and listen for hours to him "preach" into the front yard from his porch. The people's excitement spurred Spaulding to become interested in publishing his "manuscript" into a book.
Spaulding took his manuscript to a publisher in his community. He left it there for review and hoped the publisher would invest in making a book out of it. This publisher has since been directly linked to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, the supposed writer of the Book of Mormon.
The manuscript and writings that Solomon Spaulding wrote were left at the publisher's shop. The manuscript "mysteriously disappeared" after being left in the publisher’s “trustworthy” custody. Spaulding’s manuscript as a complete document has since never been found...
Today, many portions of the original "Book of Mormon" have since been professionally analyzed by many handwriting experts who concur and confirm that they are in Solomon Spaulding's handwriting. The handwriting analysis dates back to the 1970’s. Therefore, much of the Book of Mormon is actually Solomon Spaulding's fictional manuscript.
Imagine, an entire multi-million dollar church/cult has been formed around a plagerized fictional manuscript and an opportunistic man named Joseph Smith. Smith's history and the history of the Mormon church is a fascinating part of American History and one of the biggest lies that has ever been perpetrated on our society.
Anyone interested in getting more information about this should do an Internet search on "Solomon Spaulding" and judge for themselves.
Most Mormons are God-fearing and loving people who have been deceived by years of lies perpetrated by their leadership. I am greatly saddened by it and have a great love for the Mormon people. I have several Mormon friends. They are good people.
Jesus and the writings about him in the New Testament were all prophetically fulfilled in scriptures found throughout the Old Testament, pointing to Him as ultimate fulfillment of scripture and the Jewish Messiah. Christianity is actually the continuation and fulfillment of Judaism.
There is nothing in the New Testament indicating that there would ever be a "new revelation" to follow it. To the contrary, the New Testament proclaims we should not be tricked into following any "New Gospel" such as the one Joseph Smith plagerized from Solomon Spaulding.
Mitt Romney seems to be a good candidate for President. I am not sure if I will vote for him. His Mormon believes concern me because of potential links to dishonest leadership in the Mormon Church. At the same time, I have been much more concerned with our current President's leadership (or lack of) even though I do believe his Christian beliefs are sincere.
I find it interesting when everyone compares the Mormon Church against "Christianity". Does that mean that all the other christian churches are the same? Do the Protestants and Catholics practice or believe in the same teachings of their leaders? Why is their a Greek, Roman, Russian Orthodox Catholics? If I recall news events those 3 don't get along with each other. How many versions of the bible are there? Over the centuries before the printing press how accurately was it copied? Was it ever altered to fit the view of the particular faith that was copying it. Was it translated correctly from Greek, Roman, German, etc.? Why are people so insistant that God and Jesus has stopped communicating with his children almost 2,000 years ago and wouldn't have anything else to say? Just some random questions.
All Comments (108)
The Professional Evangelical Clergy would become unemployed if their flocks converted to
THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS.
Good Grief!
Doesn't the title of our Church tell you dooms dayers anything?
We ARE NOT the Mormon Church. This is a nickname.
And all of our clergy are volunteers who work full-time jobs and then give another 10-20 hours of service to their 150 family flocks.
VERY WELL ORGANIZED. All volunteer. All worshipping God the Father and His son, Jesus Christ.
June 6, 2008 11:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 6, 2008 23:41
Chuck writes:
"Having said that, however, in the eyes of most serious Christians, Mormonism is a long way from mainstream. It is totally inconsistent with historic Christian orthodox belief in its view of the Bible, for example. Mormons add to the Bible the Book of Mormon. Christians on the other hand, regard the Bible as the sole authority for faith and practice."
And how's that working out for you, Chuck? All sunshine and roses so far?
"There are many other serious theological differences between Mormonism and orthodox confessing Christianity. For instance, they believe there are many gods. As Brigham Young's Journal of Discourses says: 'How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods' (7:333)."
Arcane: Journal of Discourses is not canonical. Even if it were, you overlook that LDS scripture is very clear the God the Father is the creator of our spirits, and Christ the Son is the redeemer of same. It is God to whom we pray in the name of the Son, and no other beings--not saints or Mary or pope or anyone else--are our objects of worship.
"They also believe as Joseph Smith writes, 'Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.' In other words, man’s basic intelligence was not created by God and is as old as God’s."
Source on this one? This sounds like a boiled down version of what is a much more complex doctrine than you allow for here. Yes, we believe that humankind was pre-existent. We also do not believe in creation ex-nihilo. So for us to say that God is the father or creator of our spirits is to say that he organized matter just as matter was used to organize the rest of creation: what was this matter? Don't know, but Intelligence seems like a pretty good handle in the meantime. Maybe we should all try to live up to that.
But let's use an analogy: say intelligence is like ovum and sperm--the basic ingredients of the creation of a physical body. These ingredients exist in the parents as cells long before they become sperm, egg, and body. Before that, they split off from other cells. So they existed, in a preterspecific form, in the parents. Even better, then, call Intelligence "cell." To say that Mormons believe we are as old as God as separate, thinking beings is isogetical. Our potential existence is as old as God, but only because whatever eventually made us us existed in some way in God.
In sum: we were always a twinkle in God's eye. I don't know about you, but that makes me feel even more worshipful and reverential than the idea that I was shazaamed together one afternoon when there was nothing on tv.
The larger point, here: Chuck's a good man, obviously, and I thank him for his prison work. But Evangelical Christianity, and now by extensive association the rest of the Christian world, are fed retarded versions of mormonism from their own in-house curricula that make us sound like scientologists. Seriously, people: go to the sources. I think you'll be very surprised by what you find.
"Most Christians recognize that we live in a pluralistic culture which guarantees religious liberty. We would therefore oppose any ethic to stigmatize any religious group and would defend their rights to fully participate in every aspect of public life, including elections. While we have profound differences, there are no grounds for discrimination."
Beautiful, Chuck. "Mormons are weird, and definitely not Christian, but let's not hold that against them." Ay caramba.
January 26, 2008 3:49 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 26, 2008 03:49
By the acts of which Pope should Christianity and its Bible be judged? Even Luther, Calvin and their contemporaries believed in witch burning. Should their Bible be asked to answer for their bizarre interpretations? Athiests would have us believe so.
A similiar comparison typifies Mormon Criticism. People who write about 'Mormonism' consistently fail to allow the Book of Mormon to speak for itself. Mormonism as we know it is a religion of parts borrowed from other contemporary religions of the day, including Freemasonry, Swedenborgism, Millerism, Campbellism and even Shakerism. These were the sources used by Sidney Rigdon, a radical Baptist minister of the Campbellite Restoration Movement, to influence Joseph Smith, Jr. as he was desperately searching for the means to create a new church. But if objective minds will but take the time to actually read the Book of Mormon they will find a friend to Evangelical Christianity and the Christian Gospel. I am not a member of any 'Mormon' church and find their doctrines to be in diametric conflict with the teachings of the Book of Mormon. But the fault does not lie in what the Book of Mormon teaches which anyone can discover if they will but take time to read the book. In fact the Book of Mormon is Mormonism's staunchest critic. RLM
December 15, 2007 3:03 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 15, 2007 15:03
The problem debating politics with LDS members and Mitt Romney is that it is impossible to separate the presidential candidate from Mitt Romney the LDS Bishop / Stake Leader. Some non-LDS members don’t understand this, but anyone that’s grown up in the Church understands that the LDS faith pervades every aspect of family, work, politics, and even friends. The greatest risk to the LDS Church is that some media commenter actually does their homework and challenges Mitt Romney to some real questions of substance. Luckily most political “pundits ask Romney a tough question and he responds with an answer… usually an incorrect or incomplete answer in order to appease the inquirer, but what will happen when a true pundit calls his bluff. This far the Stephanopoulos interview came the closest with a follow-up segment correcting Romney on his own Mormon doctrine, but I fear it will get worse and worse. The LDS Church may one day be on the verge of becoming the new Scientology and Mitt Romney is our Tom Cruise.
http://www.ExposeRomney.com
http://www.exposeromney.com/pages/AreMormonsChristian.html
October 6, 2007 3:03 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on October 6, 2007 15:03
Oops, sorry for the double post. The first post didn't show up in my browser and when I reposted the both showed up
July 15, 2007 9:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 15, 2007 21:29
The most rational basis for judging a politician is by his policies and political philosophy rather than stated religion. For example many of our Founding Father's were NOT orthodox Christians, yet they governed in a manner more consistent with Biblical Christianity than many politicians today who have a stronger claim to orthodoxy.
Romney, when judged this way, has failed to govern according to principles compatible with either Mormonism or Evangelicalism. Until his recent, convenient, political "conversion" he experienced just before declaring his candidacy for President he espoused views on abortion and gay rights that are repugnant to both Mormons and Evangelicals.
July 15, 2007 9:23 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 15, 2007 21:23
The most rational basis for judging a politician is by his policies and political philosophy rather than stated religion. For example many of our Founding Father's were NOT orthodox Christians, yet they governed in a manner more consistent with Biblical Christianity than many politicians today who have a stronger claim to orthodoxy.
Romney, when judged this way, has failed to govern according to principles compatible with either Mormonism or Evangelicalism. Until his recent, convenient, political "conversion" he experienced just before declaring his candidacy for President he espoused views on abortion and gay rights that are repugnant to both Mormons and Evangelicals.
July 15, 2007 8:43 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 15, 2007 20:43
Lee,
Again...I don't think you're trying to understand. It doesn't matter what "people" have as their conceptions of Heaven. What matters is Jesus' description, since HE knew and experienced what Heaven was like...and His description didn't have anything at all in common with the Mormon "concept" of Heaven...populating planets, etc.
And I didn't say anything about knowing WHERE Heaven is, did I?
May 9, 2007 1:03 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 9, 2007 13:03
No, cults use scripture out of context. Liberal churches use only one or two scriptures.You have no idea where Heaven is, do you? But that is not what my message is about.My message is about not condemming people to Hell because they have a different concept of Heaven. But, wherever Heaven is, no sin will be there.Only those who have had thier sins washed by the Blood of Christ will be allowed to dwell there.
May 9, 2007 7:25 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 9, 2007 07:25
Hey Lee,
The way you quote scripture one would think you'd actually believe it!
How can you say that nobody has an idea what Heaven is like when so much of the Bible and Jesus' teachings describe it to us? Are you suggesting that Jesus lied in His description of Heaven? Is Jesus was not describing Heaven in a truthful way then why do you profess to believe in anything He said and be called by His name?
Either you believe all of the Bible as Truth or you don't...but don't use parts of it to fit your needs and then discard the rest. That's what true cults do...use only the scriptures that back your views, discarding the true overall picture.
2 Timothy 4:18
May 8, 2007 6:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 8, 2007 18:45
Hey Maryland, You are shooting from the hip!Mormons do have a different view on the nature of God. So do some Pentecostals. But, they do believe that Jesus was born of a virgin,was crucified for us. They believe that he rose from the dead & sits at the right hand of God the Father.They believe he is a living Christ.What a stupid comment you made about Easter Sunday too.A lot of churches have a sunrise service or something like that.You have no idea about what they believe.As a matter of fact, you probably don't know much about the so-called mainline Protestant denominatios either.You may think you do, but you would shocked if you would actually check out what they teach at the Seminaries of these churches. A good example is the Episcopal Church. A bunch of Apostates! Also, Mormons are more well read in the Bible than most "mainline" Church members! And about that belief in heaven,nobody has an idea of what glory will look like or where it is.So, don't be assigning people to Hell because of thier concept of Heaven. Paul says that we see through a dark glass,but, face to face we will see clearly. Let's just let our Heavenly Father reveal His secrets in his own good time.
May 8, 2007 9:52 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 8, 2007 09:52
I am just wondering...because of what the LDS has taught about the origin of the races, especially, the African-American...if he and other leaders of their church would support a black President or, even more so, a black leader for the LDS church overall?
May 8, 2007 8:10 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 8, 2007 08:10
"In my father's house are many rooms, if it were not so I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you."
John 14:2 NIV
These words of Jesus describe Heaven...one of many references made to Heaven in the Bible. If Mormons are to be considered a "Christian" denomination, and to have the name of Jesus Christ as part of their name, then how does their belief validate the teachings of Christ and the Bible?
The Mormons believe that their reward is not a Heaven as taught in the Bible...instead that they their reward will be to inhabit and populate another planet.
Either Jesus taught the truth or He didn't!!!...the Mormons seek to blend in with the mainstrean religions... but all one has to do is learn their teachings and compare those to the Bible to know the difference!
May 7, 2007 9:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 7, 2007 21:08
What makes a person a Christian?
The fundamental Christian beliefs are enumerated in the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed. The Nicene Creed was written in AD 325 at the Council of Nicea.
A Creed is a short statement of belief.
I saw a TV clip the other day where one of the Mormon leaders said that he did not understand the Nicene Creed. He did not say what he did not believe.
All Christians believe:
INCARNATION:
Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. (Christmas) She became pregnant by the Power of Holy Spirit.
(Feast of the Incarnation)
DEATH:
Jesus was crucified, died and buried. (Good Friday)
RESURRECTION:
Jesus came back to life. (Easter Sunday)
ASCENSION into HEAVEN:
Jesus ascended into Heaven 40 days after Easter. (Ascension Day)
As I understand Mormon belief, they have a different understanding of the nature of Jesus, and the fundamental difference is the Incarnation. If that's ture, then stating "not Christian" about Mormons is true. I noted that a local Mormon church was empty on Easter Sunday. That's a day when all other Christian Churches are overflowing. (Perhaps they were meeting elsewhere, I don't know.)
So, these are some reasons why people ask if Mormons are Christians. They use the same name, but have a fundamentally difference concept of Jesus' nature.
May 7, 2007 2:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 7, 2007 14:39
Wow...I didn't know about the masacre until I googled it! Sure doesn't seem like someone i'd believe. tehy sure don't want to talk aboutit huh?
May 7, 2007 11:26 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 7, 2007 11:26
True to form, my Evangelical brothers & sisters love to do "research" on Mormons & what they believe. Countless times I have been to the Home Bible studies & in Sunday School observing the big easel board listing the various "cults". That list seems to get bigger as time goes by. I agree that some are dangerous cults. I will not name them here, however I always see Mormons headlining the list. Recently, Pentecostals & Catholics have made the list. I guess that is the "They are without a doubt, going to hell list!" Scipture tells me that those who have not had thier sins washed by the Blood of the Lamb are hell bound. PERIOD!! Another thing.To win someone over to you, you don't beat them on the head with a Bible. You show them love & respect. I have not seen this in any of these threads posted so far. Ask a Mormon why he attends the Temple and what it means to him. Find out what the Book of Mormon says about the Savior.Try reading it.And don't say God does not want you to read it. God does not want you to read some of the secular crap that we all been guilty of reading. You don't have to accept it as God's Word, but the message of Christ's love and redemption is proclaimed throughout in it's pages. There is nothing in it that contradicts the Bible.The Book of Mormon was written for a Christian society.Only a Christian would understand it's message as being relevant in this time.Therefore the name, "Latter-Day Saints". Anyway,I don't mean to preach, just want to understand others point of view and be able to relate, and not to make fun of that I know little about.
May 7, 2007 9:00 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 7, 2007 09:00
big d - i just have to say, it takes a BIG DUDE to admit a mistake and im impressed that you came back, and called attention to your own tiny misunderstanding- ill be calling you big d- but ill be thinking big dude from now on-(unless youre a woman-then its big dudette)
May 7, 2007 1:31 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 7, 2007 01:31
Have any of you heard of the Mormon doctrine of the Blood Atonement? This allowed one to "spill the blood" of another when that person has committed an unpardonable sin. They won't tell you about that.
What about the Mountain Meadows Massacre? Google it...see if this sounds like a true religion of God or a cult...similar to the Branch Davidian or Heaven's Gate.
Do they ever talk about that?
There are a lot of eye-opening books out there by former Mormon churchmembers...a good one is "BEYOND MORMONISM" by James Spencer, a former elder.
"THE TRUTH ABOUT MORMONISM" by Hugh Pyle is another.
There's a movie called "THE GOD MAKERS"...if you really seek the truth do yur homework and then judge for yourself.
It all really boils down to what Jesus said "I
(ONLY I) am THE way, THE truth and THE life...no one one comes to the Father but through ME"...anyone that teaches differently does not preach the truth. Religion isn't what God wants...He wants our love and our loyalty. With that in mind there was no need to create another religion...God desires a relationship with us on an individual basis. And we can have that only through faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
May 5, 2007 1:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 13:18
Some of you have way too much free time!
May 5, 2007 2:46 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 02:46
Lincoln,
I'm not sure I understand how you can believe it was not an attempt to outlaw Mormonism. Polygamy was not illegal until Mormons were practicing it. The Edmunds/Tucker act and Reynolds decision made it illegal for them to practice part of their religion after it was already in place.
In the Edmunds/Tucker act the government decided to deny Mormon women - whom they were trying to protect - the right to vote - in order to limit the voting rights of the Mormon people. (Note that Mormon women had the right to vote before this.) They made Mormon women testify against their husbands whether they wanted to or not. Then they confiscated the Church's property and rented it back to them so they would have no money. Then they outlawed the perpetual immigration fund so that no more Mormons would come to the U.S. Then they abolished the Nauvoo Legion and any military ability of people who were now way out in the desert to protect themselves from military action on the part of the U.S. government.
All of these provisions were aimed at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - the Mormon church - and no other group. And yet, you say, the Edmunds Tucker act was not an attempt to outlaw Mormonism? I'm just surprised the Mormon people didn't secede from the Union.
As to the reference about ten virgins, I think the idea there is that if you marry someone who has not been married before - a virgin in those days - and this was speaking at a time when polygamy was practiced - then you are not committing adultery because they are obviously not anyone else's wife. It seems more a reminder not to commit adultery than anything else. And since the church does not practice polygamy now it is a moot point.
May 5, 2007 1:52 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 5, 2007 01:52
anyway can any of ya'll answer some quick questions for me..
1.) why can't I have more than one* wife?
2.) if I belong to a group of individuals like the Mormons and they respect me and treat me good while we enjoy worshipping Christ the Messiah, then why would that be terrible?
3.) how many Mormons does it take to elect a President??
4.) why can't we all spend more time praising Christ the Messiah instead of bickering over who does it better?
5.) oh and why don't Church of Christ listen to music?? King David danced so hard his clothes fell off, I personally couldn't dance that hard, but so what??
6.) why are Mormons any diffrent than all the other sects of Christianity lead be 'Elders' that believe their Dogma is more holy?
me personally I think that we should focus more on the actual TEACHING of CHRIST than the MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY approach
If I'm way off base with these assumptions and questions then please let me know, I just know I read the WORD and take it on FAITH, if there is a better SYSTEM out there then Let me know!!
*that is assuming I could even consider having more than one woman in my life who is willing to love me!! KING SOLOMON ANYONE???
May 4, 2007 11:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 23:42
what is that ECLATi crap?? I can't even understand that guy...all I wanted to say was really folks?? Really?? We are going to keep going around in circles on a subject that will not see any definant(sp) answers? The reason all of ya'll will keep shouting at eachother is because your minds are made up...scream all you want I hear only blahblah blahblah...If we as Christians spent more time following Christ the Messiah instead of screaming my God is better than your god....ya know i'll stop because it's not even going to help...
I do however want to ask Mr. Jacob Whatever what is all the nonesense about ECLATi really about how old are you..??
May 4, 2007 9:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 21:45
So now back to those questions....
What about the claim that the Native Americans are descended from a lost tribe of Israel? But doesn't DNA testing prove that false?
What about the Gold tablet? We certainly have the Dead Sea Scrolls to prove the writings of the Bible match ancient manuscripts...so where is the Mormon equivalent? If there was such a thing would it not be on proud display for the world to see?...or could it be all a hoax?
May 4, 2007 6:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 18:27
I really wish people would not use the word "evangelical" when what they really mean is "fundamentalist". There is a big difference, especially to those of us who consider ourselves to be evangelicals.
It is fundamentalists who are seen as "orthodox"; they see mainstream Christianity as a threat to traditional understanding of the Bible, and believe in strict interpretation and follow-through. It is a movement that was started in direct response to what was perceived by some as liberal trends in their churches.
Evangelicals on the other hand, believe in the Bible's authority in matters of faith and practice. A big part of the evangelical's life is dedicated in some way to helping the less fortunate at home or abroad.
May 4, 2007 3:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 15:16
I find it very interesting for people in these comments try to prove each other wrong or right with scriptures and their own theological differences. Then that garbage about Spaulding... dont make me laugh. What a load of garbage. Spauldings book was released AFTER the Book of Mormon, and they have NO similarities. I think its so funny, and ironic, that books 5x the size of the Book of Mormon are written to prove it wrong. And yet, Mormonism remains growing faster and faster each year. All these arguments about "The Bible Jesus" and the "Mormon Jesus" are rediculous. Who is anybody to truly define who Jesus was or is, unless they have had personal communication with Him? It is MERELY a difference of view, thats all. So all you evengelists, you have no ground, and *news flash* are falling more and more each year to the worlds trends.
May 4, 2007 1:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 13:37
I am just curious as to who ordained Evangelism as "orthodox" Christianity? Further, why is it whenever the subject of the LDS in the overall Christian realm is brought up, an Evangelical leader is sought after for the answer? The LDS Church is the 4th largest religious denomination in the country just behind the Catholics, Methodists, and Baptists. Of the top 4, all have decreasing memberships except the LDS faith which grows each year. The LDS church is not a charismatic faith, but one that bases its sermons, teachings, and culture on what it believes are doctrinal truths. It is not the "show" which many other Christian churches put on in their sermons that is causing an increase in membership both here in the U.S. and worldwide, but a sincere, consistent message of faith and love. Based on pure numbers, Catholicism as the most followed Christian faith is the bench mark of orthodoxy. That being the case, then all Protestant denominations as well as the LDS faith should be viewed as not being orthodox. I am LDS and frankly I don't want to be considered a Christian by the Evangelical standard, because it is an incorrect definition. A Christian is a disciple and follower of Jesus Christ, another definition of which is a saint. I am a Latter-Day Saint, a Christian, and no one with such unorthodox views as the Evangelical community will persuade me otherwise.
May 4, 2007 1:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 13:01
I empathize with the Mormon commenters' complaints about not being considered "Christian" by Evangelicals. But I'd empathize a lot more if Mormons didn't do the exact same thing themselves. There are a number of other (if rather smaller) sects that also believe in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, etc., but diverge from the Salt Lake church in certain other theological aspects. And LDS leaders and members insist that that those other sects are not "Mormon" and that no one (news media, etc.) should ever refer to them as such. That's some rich and creamy hypocrisy there.
May 4, 2007 12:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 12:47
It would be interesting if discussions about Mormons by non-Mormons began with beliefs Mormons hold in common with other Christians. Below is a list that I compiled.
• There is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things, which are in them.
• The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one eternal God.
• God created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness.
• God gave man, male and female, commandments that they should love and serve Him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.
• By the transgression of these holy laws man became sensual and devilish, and became fallen man.
• The Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in scripture, which have been given of him.
• He suffered temptations but gave no heed to them.
• He was crucified, died, and rose again the third day.
• He ascended into heaven, to sit down on the right hand of the Father, to reign with almighty power according to the will of the Father; that as many as would believe and be baptized in his holy name, and endure in faith to the end, should be saved--not only those who believed after he came in the meridian of time, but all those from the beginning, who believed in the words of the holy prophets.
• He suffered, bled and died on the cross to perform substutionary atonement for the sins of the world.
• Jesus Christ is Lord. He is both the Son of God and God the Son.
• There is no other name and no other way by which any individual may be saved other than through Jesus Christ.
• We enter into the gospel covenant and are saved by the preaching of the word and by the grace of God.
• We are justified before God by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
• Yielding lives to God's Holy Spirit, who enables us to obey His commands, progressively sanctifies us.
• All the gifts of the Spirit manifested in the New Testament church continue in God's church today.
• The Bible is God's word and is true and trustworthy within those parameters that the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy and the eighth LDS Article of Faith share.
• Jesus Christ will publicly and visibly return from heaven to establish his millennial kingdom on earth.
• The God of heaven is a God of love, and those who desire to be with him must also seek to be motivated in all their relationships by love.
• There is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God.
May 4, 2007 12:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 12:42
A couple of points. Mainstream Christians are churches that subscribe to the Trinity and the Council of Nicea. Anyone else is outside the mainstream. To give you an analogous chemical example of the Trinity. Water. Water is a gas, a liquid and a solid. Water is in every living thing and even in some non-living things. Steam is still H20. Water is still H20. Ice is still H20. Three manifestations of the same element. Trinitarian thought is that the same God is found in three elements: Spirit (Holy Spirit), Flesh (Jesus Christ) and Himself (Father). Same God three manifestations. My faith says that faith in Christ for salvation is all that is needed. As Christ told the rich young ruler in Mark 10, in telling him to sell all his possessions, is that you don't have to DO anything, just follow Me. The ruler thought he had to do something. He merely had to follow Christ. That is what mainstream Christianity teaches and that is our faith. And that is not the Mormon faith.
I respect Mormons for the lives many of them lead and for their family centric lives. I wholly agree that here in America, Mormons are free to practice their faith, evangelize, run for and be elected to office and live lives which are commendable. I am happy you're here and that you're happy in your faith. Be proud of your beliefs and be open about them. But you are something other than Christians in the classical sense. I don't agree that you've found the truth, but I have no problem with you following it and encouraging others to follow it. True Christians will tell you that each of us has to make any choices in that regard, and we are eternally responsible for those choices, and that I can't force you and should not force you to believe something you don't believe. True Christian faith dictates that I only tell you what I believe is true and let you decide for yourself.
May 4, 2007 11:06 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 11:06
Sue, please take your open mind and read Mormonism, Momma, and Me. Thelma Gear was a devout LDS with Direct heritage in your religion. It is a must read for someone like yourself who han an open mind. Does Mormonism coincide with the Bible, or is it indeed a altogether "different gospel" What constitutes a different gospel? The problem is you believe that Joseph Smith was picked to bring back or re start or whatever you want to call it, the Church. The Church never left. Jehovahs Witness's think they have the truth and they have their founder. Mary Baker Eddy was the founder of Christian Science those people thing they have the truth, same with Seventh Day Adventists, Unification Church, Bahaii Faith, etc. There is a guy in Texas now who says he is Jesus in the flesh. Google "Growing in Grace Ministries" The point is that you have given your devotion to a "man made" organization that says it speaks for God. You are no different than any of those other groups just mentioned. The true Church of Jesus Christ is made up of all who have received His Spirit and been born again. And we are all over the world. And if you have received Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then you are a part of the body of Christ as well. And for those who think God is too big to fit into "one religion", your argument is with Jesus, not me. He is the one who said " I am the way, the truth , and the life, no one gets to the Father apart from me. Only someone with the authority of God could and would say that. This is the key. Jesus is deity. God in the flesh. Unlike any other. He is the one that people stumble over by not accepting who He is. The son of God, and God, the son. "But you need to realize that Mormon teachings are way inconsistant with Biblical teachings, thus a "different gospel" and certainly a "different Jesus" The Bible is complete. It covers everything. There is no prophecy regarding, " Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that somewhere before Jesus comes back I'm going to reinstate the church that will be way different from what has already been written." But what was written, is a warning about false prophets leading many astray from the true gospel. It even warns about getting new revelation from an Angel of Light!! Hello????
Does it not bother you in the least that the way LDS was started was the very thing Paul warned about? Please read Mormonism , Momma , and Me. May the Holy Spirit of God lead you in His truth. In Love,
May 4, 2007 10:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 10:59
I cant quote the bible or the book of morman, but living in a state next to Utah, i feel alot of people are very wary of the" momites" and their crooked ways in business,I know alot of them most I have a hard time trusting. but Mitt seems like a allright sort of guy. Dont think i could vote for him though, better than a clinton or a whatever race for sure. THANKS g.b.
May 4, 2007 10:54 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 10:54
First of all I may not be a Scholar or expert on religion but the way I look at it is some questions in my mind need to be answered..
1. The context of the book of mormon supposedly written 2000 years ago uses 20th century context like calling abraham abe that context was not used till early 19th century..
2. Every Christian knows or has seen the picture of the Our Lord Jesus on the cross and know he rose three days later to his death he preached the words of god..But yet the Mormons claim they have gold tablets and no one can see them and only one person can read them with these magic spectacles.
3. In the bible Jesus is asked if their are more gods as a trap.. And he stated Yes it is as you say there are more gods but in context he said if you say so but in truth there is only One God one Lord and one Savior..
4. Be wary of wolves in sheeps clothing sent to devour the flock.. Hum could they be talking of false prophets and cults such as mormons really are..
5. But to be fair to the Mormons perhaps they can explain in detail what their basis or foundation of their faith trully is?
May 4, 2007 10:26 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 10:26
Many gods- Jesus said- " Know you not that you are gods? quoting the Old Testament. Jesus said to be perfect like your Father in Heaven is perfect. People have the capacity, through the saving power of God, to become as He is and do His works, not just now but throughout all eternity. God is perfect in every part of his character, attributes and nature, knowledge, power, etc. We are to " become " and "do " as He does. Sue
May 4, 2007 10:08 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 10:08
As far as Mr. Colson goes- is there anyone among us who has not done wrong or sinned? Is there anyone that God cannot forgive and change, and who cannot change his life around and do things that are good. I am very sure that he is doing much good in his life, while many people spend their time doing not much of value. Sue
May 4, 2007 9:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 09:59
That reference in Revelations refers to that book only. There are books in the Bible that were added after Revelations. You are speaking from a lack of knowledge. Would you get rid of John's writings toward the end of the NT? They were added after. The Revelation is one seperate book- don't add to that book,don't add anything to what Peter or Paul or Jesus said. But don't say -don't ever let God ever speak again-He is God- if He did speak again, don't you think he would have something to say that is equally relavant for today as is the Bible? Well the Book of Mormon is relavant and even has clearer warnings for what is going on for today, because it was keep to be brought forth today because of all of the unbelief that exists. It was written for our day- to give us the knowledge needed today. It wasn't written for the people of the book itself, but for some of their descendants and for us. It verifies that the Bible is true and that Jesus is the Christ. It warns us what will happen if we continue as a nation/s or an individual/s to not keep the commandments of God. It gives the history of what happened to those who formerly lived on this continent when they lived them and when they didn't and why most of them were finally destroyed. Can you judge a book that you have never read?
The Church started when Joseph went into the woods to pray about which church he should join. He saw the Father and the Son. Four years later he saw the resurected Moroni ( angel), who showed him where the records of his people were kept. They were sacred and could only be had by Joseph for pure reasons. He talked with Moroni once a year for 4 years, learning of the culture of the former inhabitants of this continent-from whom Moroni descended. When his motives for having the plates, which were gold and of value,were pure, he was given the power and gift to translate them. They were returned to Moroni, but others were allowed to see and testify of them and also allowed to meet Moroni, as witnesses to the truth.Out of the mouths of two or three witnesses God establishes the truth. They were returned to Moroni.
There are computerized studies of the BofM that indicate all we claim- there are many authors, it has exactly what it says- Hebrew and Egyptian origins. It is ancient. It has the device of chiasmus in it that is also in the Bible, and was unknown at the time Joseph translated it. There are many proofs, but no proof is stronger than reading a scriptural book and finding out for yourself if it is truth. You know truth by the Spirit and by obeying the truth. You don't need a witness by seeing the original plates. The Book of Mormon will testifty of its truth to you by the power of the Holy Ghost if you want to sincerely know about it.The Book of Mormon is a second witness that Jesus is the Christ- the law of witnesses! Sue
May 4, 2007 9:57 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 09:57
Mormonism = Cult.
May 4, 2007 9:30 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 09:30
Do the Mormons not believe in the Bible as a book of truth? If not, then why do they use it as a companion with their own book?
If they do believe it as truth then why do they disregard the warning of Revelations 22:18...
"And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the words of prophecy written in this book: If anyone addsanything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book." NIV
Has anything in the Bible been proven to be untrue? Has any claim by the Mormon church ever proven to be untrue? Are the Native Americans truly a lost tribe of Israel as claimed?...or has DNA evidence disproved that?
Where are the golden tablets???
Mark
May 4, 2007 9:19 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 09:19
Joseph Smith saw an angel of light who gave him a new gospel. One different from the one Paul gave.
Galatians 1: 6-9 "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even though we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. If Joseph Smith had read his Bible he would have seen that he was not supposed to listen to that "Angel of Light" Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. 2 Cor: 11: 14 All who are reading this should check out the book by Thelma Gear. "Mormonism , Mama, and Me. Every Mormon should read it. Read the story of her meeting the real Jesus and not the one that Mormons believe in. The trouble with Mormons or Jehovah's witness's, or Seventh Day adventists, or Christian Scientists, or any of the other pseudo Christian groups, is that they have a founder with a "new revelation" seperate and different from what the scripture teach's. And we have been warned by Jesus about this happening. Read Matthew 24. When Jesus is asked about the signs of His soon return, the first thing He said was, "don't be misled" VS 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Study the History of Mormonism. If the foundation is corrupt, the whole organization is corrupt. It doesn't matter what it looks like on the outside, or how nice the people are. Strong words, but true. Please read Mormonism , Mama and Me. We are to test the spirits.
May 4, 2007 8:45 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 08:45
I dont think my last comment went through. I dont have anything against the mormons personally but for me going by other books than the bible would be wrong. But each person must search for the truth as they see it to be. I think it says in the bible to not go by any other books so for me the Mormon religion would not be the right one.
May 4, 2007 8:42 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 08:42
I have to wonder how many Jews, Romans, or other groups considered the early Christians mainstream. I seem to recall that Christ warned his apostles they would be persecuted and hated by the world, just as He was. If anything, being "mainstream" is evidence of not being a true follower of Christ.
As for the idea that the Book of Mormon is not needed because the Bible is the word of God, what is wrong with having more of the word of God? If the Gospel of Matthew is the word of God, why do we need the other three Gospels? If God wants to establish the truth with two or more witnesses, what is wrong with that? Would you pluck out one eye because the other is redundant? Doesn't having two eyes give us depth perception and greater perspective? I welcome truth from whatever source God gives it.
May 4, 2007 4:29 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 04:29
Anonymous-
The Edmunds/Tucker Act was not a law that made Mormonism illegal, but a law that enforced the illegality of polygamy under the Supreme Court Reynolds decision.
The Edmunds-Tucker Act of 1887 passed as a supplement the Edmunds Law, which became law without the signature of President Cleveland. This new law included the following provisions:
A wife or wives were forced to testify against their husbands.
Witnesses did not have to be subpoenaed to appear in court.
Definite laws and punishments regarding immoralities (in the eyes of the law) were set forth.
All marriages performed were to be recorded with a probate court.
Probate judges were to be appointed by the President of the United States.
Woman suffrage was abolished (to restrict the Mormon elective franchise).
A test oath was reintroduced into Utah's elective process: voting, serving on juries, or holding public office were conditional upon signing the oath pledging obedience to and support of all anti-polygamy laws.
Utah Commission was to continue in charge of elections and was empowered to administer the qualifying oath.
The Perpetual Emigrating Fund Company was dissolved (in an effort to curtail the influx of foreign converts who added to Mormon voting strength.)
The Nauvoo Legion was abolished and all local military laws repealed.
To establish a "free public school education," the office of territorial superintendent of schools was replaced by a commissioner to be appointed by the Utah Supreme Court.
"To accomplish the destruction of Mormon political and economic power in Utah, the Church was disincorporated and its property escheated to the United States." The escheated Church property was to be used for the benefit of the common schools of the territory.
By June, 1888, the government had escheated from the Church property valued in excess of $800,000. The government had seized by this date most of the real property of the Church and then rented back to the Church part of this property.
The Church rented the Historian's office and the General Tithing office for $300 per month and the Gardo House for $70. These rentals were raised to $500 per month for the Tithing and Historian's offices and $450 for the Gardo House.
The Church farm was also leased to the Church. The President's office was placed in the charge of two marshals and Temple block was leased to the Church for $1.00 per month.
Most of the Church property had been transferred into the hands of trusted individuals and local organizations and it was estimated that the Church had about three million dollars worth of property when the Edmunds-Tucker Act was being discussed in Congress.
Prior to the issuance of the Manifesto, there were approximately 1.300 men who had been convicted in Utah for violating the anti-polygamy laws and a few others had been imprisoned in Idaho and Arizona. (There were 327 convictions before the end of 1887, 334 in 1888, and 346 in 1889.)
It is as difficult to measure the real magnitude of the effect of the anti polygamy acts upon the Mormons, as it is to measure the effects of a minority that "lived" the law of plural marriage on the majority that only supported it. (Larson, p. 216.)
The Mormon church did not abide by this law, and many polygamists were jailed under its provisions. It put the stranglehold on polygamy that the Federal government wanted, resulting in the 1890 abandonment of the practice of polygamy by the Mormon church. This abandonment was only a public display to appease the Federal government, as the Mormons continued to practice polygamy in Canada and Mexico officially until 1904. The Smoot hearings finally put an end to Mormon-sponsored polygamy in Salt Lake LDS church, but many fundamentalists never discontinued the practice.
In response to your question about the promise of ten virgins to Mormon men. This promise is contained in the Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:62, which reads: "And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified." This scripture is included in the Mormon's cannon of scripture today, and remains in full force.
May 4, 2007 4:11 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 04:11
I would consider the LDS church to be within the Christian realm. It just so happens that Christianity doesn't fit into a neat little box the way evangelical Christians want to always believe. Christianity crosses many spectrums of practice and doctrine from Unitarians to Orthodox to liberal Episcopalians to hardshell Baptists to Roman Catholics and so on. It seems Christians have the hardest time tolerating fellow Christians, never mind Muslims, Jews or atheists.
May 4, 2007 2:41 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 02:41
I have many thoughts after reading all of yours. But one thought stays the same, God sent all of us to live on this earth together and to see if we could get along and have a little joy at the same time. I sure hope we can. Being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ helps me realize that and I am a better person because of that doctrine - to have joy and get along. Personally, I don't believe we are mainstream. I agree with someone else's thoughts in that I don't want to be mainstream. Watch the news, I don't want to be a part of the mess some people have made! I want to have pure happiness and be make great friendships. I am doing a pretty good job of it too!
May 4, 2007 2:13 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 02:13
As a Presbyterian (USA) who is a Democrat, I've felt judged by the religious right to be hell-bound. I share that much with LDSers, with whom I've been friends, played sports, etc.
This is unfair overgeneralization for many LDSers, I'm sure, but in a way, I believe the protestant right wing evangelicals and the right wing LDSers deserve each other as bunkmates, insofar as they manifest their faith and values by supporting conservative political causes. Their support of Iraq-tied-to-Al-Qaeda lying, Mammon-worshipping, torturing, oppressive-regime-supporting, the-poor-and-imprisoned-neglecting, gun-loving, environment-be-damned-exploiting-and-polluting, global-warming-loving, intolerance-promoting, people-of-color-race-baiting politicians puts them in the same boat as far as I'm concerned. They're so focused on achieving stylized and selective personal righteousness, that they've completely lost their bearings and stopped listening to God and Jesus about what we are supposed to do in this world. I've got a log in my own eye, but folks, you've got a lot of explaining to do to God. Y'all should read Matthew 25:31-46 and quake in your spiritual boots. You're in danger, big danger, but most of you will keep smilin', I'm guessing. I hope not.
May 4, 2007 1:52 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 01:52
The dialogue is stale. Not irrelevant!
Fact is you can't ask an Italian person to educate you about the Chinese experience. Be the Chinese person who has had the experience for the last 30 years. Our mainstream Italian is going to propose to educate the Chinese person about what Chinese REALLY stand for based on what some other mainstream intellectual taught him to believe. Basic enough? enough said. Now shake it off and get back to reality!
In the absence of the experience how can anyone possibly make any claims to the truth? Can't happen. WHY? Simply because the truth is not available without first being preceeded by a sincere desire to want to know the truth. Perhaps, the verb "to seek" may require more than we presently give it. That is worth being introspective about!!
How much of this data have we acquired from other well intended, yet imperfect sources of truth? How much dependence have we placed on God for truth? Enough said!
There is nothing "Christian" that comes with attacking another person's belief. Nope! Not really! That level of contention is not really my idea of Christian. Nope! Not really! If you really want to know - have some courage and simply check it out for yourself with a focus on sincerity. It's not complicated - it's just NOT mainstream to actually do your own homework! Until then... no one can claim an objective investigation of the truth. Nope! Not really!
In the end "...by their fruits ye will know them."
(I read that somewhere..)
I'm with Romney because of HIS fruits.
That's the truth!
May 4, 2007 1:34 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 01:34
Dale,
Good questions! Within the Christian church there are many denominatons, yes.. Coming from different backgrounds or areas (Presbyterian=Scotland, Anglican=England, Lutheran=German, Baptist=American) there are naturally minor differences in style of worship or baptismal customs but the core Bible based beliefs are the same. There are different translations of the Bible from different times, but each one is a translation of the original texts. They are saying the same thing. To study the original Greek texts or ancient copies shows that the Bible has stayed the same.
To study the Book of Mormon or POGP or other doctrines we see in its short lifespan numerous changes made to it. If the Bible is truely the Word Of God as it claims, then we need no other texts. The Bible warns against taking away or adding to its pages..
May 4, 2007 12:36 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 00:36
The Truth about Mormonism:
Mormonism is actually based on the plagiarized writings of a retired Methodist minister named Solomon Spalding. Spaulding mused himself writing fiction in King James English in the 1800's at a time when there was no TV or radio. Spaulding's writings were completed about 20 years prior to Joseph Smith supposedly finding the "Golden Plates" in Upstate New York. Many people from Spaulding's local community would gather in Spaulding's front yard and listen for hours to him "preach" into the front yard from his porch. The people's excitement spurred Spaulding to become interested in publishing his "manuscript" into a book.
Spaulding took his manuscript to a publisher in his community. He left it there for review and hoped the publisher would invest in making a book out of it. This publisher has since been directly linked to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, the supposed writer of the Book of Mormon.
The manuscript and writings that Solomon Spaulding wrote were left at the publisher's shop. The manuscript "mysteriously disappeared" after being left in the publisher’s “trustworthy” custody. Spaulding’s manuscript as a complete document has since never been found...
Today, many portions of the original "Book of Mormon" have since been professionally analyzed by many handwriting experts who concur and confirm that they are in Solomon Spaulding's handwriting. The handwriting analysis dates back to the 1970’s. Therefore, much of the Book of Mormon is actually Solomon Spaulding's fictional manuscript.
Imagine, an entire multi-million dollar church/cult has been formed around a plagerized fictional manuscript and an opportunistic man named Joseph Smith. Smith's history and the history of the Mormon church is a fascinating part of American History and one of the biggest lies that has ever been perpetrated on our society.
Anyone interested in getting more information about this should do an Internet search on "Solomon Spaulding" and judge for themselves.
Most Mormons are God-fearing and loving people who have been deceived by years of lies perpetrated by their leadership. I am greatly saddened by it and have a great love for the Mormon people. I have several Mormon friends. They are good people.
Jesus and the writings about him in the New Testament were all prophetically fulfilled in scriptures found throughout the Old Testament, pointing to Him as ultimate fulfillment of scripture and the Jewish Messiah. Christianity is actually the continuation and fulfillment of Judaism.
There is nothing in the New Testament indicating that there would ever be a "new revelation" to follow it. To the contrary, the New Testament proclaims we should not be tricked into following any "New Gospel" such as the one Joseph Smith plagerized from Solomon Spaulding.
Mitt Romney seems to be a good candidate for President. I am not sure if I will vote for him. His Mormon believes concern me because of potential links to dishonest leadership in the Mormon Church. At the same time, I have been much more concerned with our current President's leadership (or lack of) even though I do believe his Christian beliefs are sincere.
May 4, 2007 12:36 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 4, 2007 00:36
I find it interesting when everyone compares the Mormon Church against "Christianity". Does that mean that all the other christian churches are the same? Do the Protestants and Catholics practice or believe in the same teachings of their leaders? Why is their a Greek, Roman, Russian Orthodox Catholics? If I recall news events those 3 don't get along with each other. How many versions of the bible are there? Over the centuries before the printing press how accurately was it copied? Was it ever altered to fit the view of the particular faith that was copying it. Was it translated correctly from Greek, Roman, German, etc.? Why are people so insistant that God and Jesus has stopped communicating with his children almost 2,000 years ago and wouldn't have anything else to say? Just some random questions.
May 3, 2007 11:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 3, 2007 23:51