All Comments (138)

of all the violence in the world the majority of the offenders are from persons who beleive Jesus is god, the lord !!!!! i would say 90% of the worlds problems comes from this group. just look into it

of all the violence in the world the majority of the offenders are from persons who beleive Jesus is god, the lord !!!!! i would say 90% of the worlds problems comes from this group. just look into it

of all the violence in the world the majority of the offenders are from persons who beleive Jesus is god, the lord !!!!! i would say 90% of the worlds problems comes from this group. just look into it

The difference is that our civilization is post enlightenment and the scriptures merely refer to historical events then and there, which no one considers 'immutable' or 'for all mankind- for all time' as the Koran does. The Muhammed worshippers are enslaved by the insane 'revelations' of a genocidal lunatic, pedophile, slave-master and serial rapist who fought his wars for 'booty which Allah made lawful to him', in other words, out of greed.

No other religious texts mandate world conquest and genocide on Jews and unbelievers.
Islam is worse than the vandals, it is the worlds biggest perversion in the guise of religion.

Unfortunately, this is a discussion that will never end. Only when the Lord comes to save "Israel" and "Rule and Reign" all Muslims will have no other option but to bow their knee and acknowledge that Jesus is the only God and Lord. The Muslim Alah is not blessed and is not God, buy a god of this world.

“The Grand Mosque and the holy city are forbidden to non-Muslims,” Col. Suhail Matrafi, head of the department of Expatriates Affairs in Mecca, told the Saudi daily Arab News. “The new fingerprints system is very helpful and will help us a lot to discover the identity of a lot of criminals,” he said.
Similar restrictions apply to the Saudi city of Medina. In a section entitled, “Traveler’s Information,” the Web site of the Saudi Embassy in Washington states that, “Mecca and Medina hold special religious significance and only persons of the Islamic faith are allowed entry.”
Highway signs at the entrance to Mecca also direct non-Muslims away from the city’s environs.

jim, whens the last time you were in a mosque in iran or saudi arabia?
were intelligent people in here- respect that enough to substantiate what you say-
the reasonable muslims who denounce violence are all over these boards, all over the internet- the media (sadly american media doesnt broadcast it- it makes dull copy) and the world

if it eases your anxiety, please let me assure you that i denounce personally hate-mongering from any quarter- muslim or other

peace to you

If Islam is such a peaceful religion, why are so many of their their religious leaders in Iran, Iraq, and Saudi preaching terrorism and violence in their Friday sermons? Where are the outraged Muslims who condemn their statements?

what i the world is your point?

IF the tamil tigers were mostly muslim?

what are you going on about? that makes no sense

Ras Mannan:

You forget that Hindu India sent its (mostly) Hindu troops to Sri Lanka to fight the Tamil Tigers alongside the Sri Lanka armed forces. We paid the price of fighting the Tamil Tigers. One of these terrorists killed our Primer Minister, Rajiv Gandhi which was a huge loss for India. I can bet you that if the Tamil Tigers were mostly Muslims, Islamic terrorists from Muslim countries would be fighting the Sri Lankan army and you would really end up with a divided Sri Lanka.

Chuck Colson is right about Islam being a violent religion. It was spread by the sword and it believes in aggressively converting or conquering "infidels". This infidel mentality has landed Muslims in their current predicament where the the rest of the world views them with suspicion. There is a negative image in the world regarding Islam--no question about it. This starts with the infidel philosophy which the Muslims have practiced for centuries. The philosophy is flawed. If you push me away by calling names and creating divisions, then the gap between you and me will increase. It's tautological. Therefore, I must conclude that the the Koran in wrong and it is a false prophet and a God that recommends divisions between man and man. No question about it.

actually- i dont think you even read the whole thing-

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Friday April 27th, 2007

20 Nation Poll Finds Strong Global Consensus: Support for Free Market System, But also More Regulation of Large Companies

Muslims Believe US Seeks to Undermine Islam

Majorities Want US Forces Out of Islamic Countries
And Approve of Attacks on US Troops

Most Support Enhancing Role of Islam in Their Society,
But Also Favor Globalization and Democracy

Full Report (PDF)
Questionnaire (PDF)

in-depth poll of four major Muslim countries has found that in all of them large majorities believe that undermining Islam is a key goal of US foreign policy. Most want US military forces out of the Middle East and many approve of attacks on US troops there.

Most respondents have mixed feelings about al Qaeda. Large majorities agree with many of its goals, but believe that terrorist attacks on civilians are contrary to Islam.

There is strong support for enhancing the role of Islam in all of the countries polled, through such measures as the imposition of sharia (Islamic law). This does not mean that they want to isolate their societies from outside influences: Most view globalization positively and favor democracy and freedom of religion.

These findings are from surveys in Egypt, Morocco, Pakistan, and Indonesia conducted from December 2006 to February, 2007 by WorldPublicOpinion.org with support from the START Consortium at the University of Maryland.

Large majorities across all four countries believe the United States seeks to “weaken and divide the Islamic world.” On average 79 percent say they perceive this as a US goal, ranging from 73 percent in Indonesia and Pakistan to 92 percent in Egypt. Equally large numbers perceive that the United States is trying to maintain “control over the oil resources of the Middle East” (average 79%). Strong majorities (average 64%) even believe it is a US goal to “spread Christianity in the region.”

“While US leaders may frame the conflict as a war on terrorism, people in the Islamic world clearly perceive the US as being at war with Islam,” said Steven Kull, editor of WorldPublicOpinion.org.

Consistent with this concern, large majorities in all countries (average 74%) support the goal of getting the United States to “remove its bases and military forces from all Islamic countries,” ranging from 64 percent in Indonesia to 92 percent in Egypt.

Substantial numbers also favor attacks on US troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, and in the Persian Gulf. Across the four countries polled approximately half support such attacks in each location, while three in ten are opposed. But there is substantial variation between countries: Support is strongest in Egypt, where at least eight in ten approve of attacking US troops in the region. A majority of Moroccans also support targeting US forces, whether stationed in the Persian Gulf (52%) or fighting in Iraq (68%). Pakistanis are divided about attacks on the American military—many do not answer or express mixed feelings—while Indonesians oppose them.

(THIS IS SPECIFICALLY TROOPS)

However, respondents roundly reject attacks on civilians. Asked about politically-motivated attacks on civilians, such as bombings or assassinations, majorities in all countries—usually overwhelming majorities—take the strongest position offered by saying such violence cannot be justified at all. More than three out of four Indonesians (84%), Pakistanis (81%), and Egyptians (77%) take this position, as well as 57 percent of Moroccans (an additional 19 percent of Moroccans say such attacks can only be “weakly justified”).

Attitudes toward Al Qaeda are complex. On average, only three in ten view Osama bin Laden positively. Many respondents express mixed feelings about bin Laden and his followers and many others decline to answer.

There is strong disapproval of attacks by “groups that use violence against civilians, such as al Qaeda.” Large majorities in Egypt (88%), Indonesia (65%) and Morocco (66%) agree that such groups “are violating the principles of Islam.” Pakistanis are divided, however, with many not answering.

But there is also uncertainty about whether al Qaeda actually conducts such attacks. On average less than one in four believes al Qaeda was responsible for September 11th attacks. Pakistanis are the most skeptical—only 3 percent think al Qaeda did it. There is no consensus about who is responsible for the attacks on New York and Washington; the most common answer is “don’t know.”

Most significantly, large majorities approve of some of al Qaeda’s principal goals. Large majorities in all countries (average 70 percent or higher) support such goals as: “stand up to Americans and affirm the dignity of the Islamic people,” “push the US to remove its bases and its military forces from all Islamic countries,” and “pressure the United States to not favor Israel.”

Equally large majorities agree with goals that involve expanding the role of Islam in their society. On average, about three out of four agree with seeking to “require Islamic countries to impose a strict application of sharia,” and to “keep Western values out of Islamic countries.” Two-thirds would even like to “unify all Islamic counties into a single Islamic state or caliphate.”
(THIS IS IN REGARDS TO MUSLIM COUNTRIES SELF DETERMINATION)
But this does not appear to mean that the publics in these Muslim countries want to isolate themselves from the larger world. Asked how they feel about “the world becoming more connected through greater economic trade and faster communication,” majorities in all countries say it is a good thing (average 75%). While wary of Western values, overall 67 percent agree that “a democratic political system” is a good way to govern their country and 82 percent agree that in their country “people of any religion should be free to worship according to their own beliefs.”

The surveys were conducted between December 9, 2006 and February 15, 2007 using in-home interviews. In Morocco (1,000 interviews), Indonesia (1,141 interviews), and Pakistan (1,243 interviews) national probability samples were conducted covering both urban and rural areas. However, Pakistani findings reported here are based only upon urban respondents (611 interviews); rural respondents were unfamiliar with many of the issues in the survey. In Egypt, the sample (1,000 interviews) was an urban sample drawn probabilistically from seven governorates. Sample sizes of 1,000 – 1,141 have confidence intervals of +/- 3 percentage points; a sample size of 611 has a confidence interval of +/-4 percentage points.
April 23, 2007
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1000+
1,141+
1,243+
1000+
~~~~~~~~~
4,375 TOTAL POLLED

out of a world population of

1,500,000,000 muslims- 4,375 have expressed opinions in a poll where the questions are controlled by the pollsters- and STILL overwhelmingly disageree with terrorism being islamic-

1.5 billion to 4thousand375

well done deb! you have proven conclusively that some muslims somewhere believe the US undermines islam , and wants our soldiers out of their countries.

and dont forget this little gem-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" Pakistan (1,243 interviews) national probability samples were conducted covering both urban and rural areas. However, Pakistani findings reported here are based only upon urban respondents (611 interviews); rural respondents were unfamiliar with many of the issues in the survey."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

here, HALF of the respondents didnt even know what the issues (or questions asked) were!

you really REALLY should read stuff before you post it

and id say my mood is much more aptly described as mildly bemused, as opposed to rancorous pleonasm.

deb- this was a poll of pakistan- egypt-morocco and indonesia- and a total of less than 5000 polled altogether-
and even in those overwhelmingly islamic countries- STILL 82% of the less than 5000 agree on religious freedom of worship-

SUPPORT FOR ATTACKS ON CIVILIANS
Morocco 2.6%
Egypt 7.8%
Pakistan 1.4%
Indonesia 1.3%

so your analysis that this represents all the muslims in the world opinion is so outrageous by any standards of scholarship - also your OWN article disproves what you surmise!

also you left out the part where many of those polled didnt even know what al-qaeda stood for to have an opinion-

so from a statistical analysis perspective- this is a laughabie interpretation by any standards-

the conclusions you reached arent at all the conclusions of the pollsters-

ill just reprint the whole thing and let people decide for themselves

Deb:

"Islam and Free Speech are diametrically opposite."

Why are so many people in the West unable to differentiate between cultural restrictions in the garb of religion and the view point of the unadulterated religion? Its a bit hard to expect the Mullah to tolerate dissent and free speech when the local dictator, Shah, Royal Sultan of a million concubines, persecutes people for voicing the slightest criticism of his policies.

To compare the events in societies and nation that either continue to be misgoverned and repressive or have only recently shed that yoke, to those in the West that went through the same phase hundreds of years ago is not an intellectually honest analysis.

And by the way, most conservative Christian organizations and groups do protest artistic endeavors that they believe are offensive or incorrectly portray their religion. They may not go burn down the Mall of America, and neither did any Muslim immigrants during the cartoon protest, but they do protest and quite vociferously. Tune into any conservative Christian talk show on the radio and TV and you will find the same sort of intolerance that you seem to ascribe to Muslims only.
The difference is that this country has an effective system of checks and balances, several hundred years of developing those systems, and effective means of enforcing them.

Deb:
"In my reading, precisely these views are very dangerous for USA and US citizens."

Thats sort of like putting the cart before the horse. So if a person believes that another is out to undermine and even potentially destroy him or her, he or she should not retaliate or express views supporting such action that would result in the minimization of such a threat?

If Muslims believe that the U.S is undermining them then why would they not want the U.S out of Muslim countries? Why would they not support attacks on U.S troops they believe are occupying Muslim countries?

It's all a question of context really. Apparently a large percentage of Muslims (based on this poll), correctly or not, believe the U.S is actively conspiring against them and within that context of being under attack I find the responses perfectly acceptable that attacks on U.S forces should continue and that the U.S should be driven out of the region.

Within the American context of the "War on Terror" a similar sentiment of "destroy the enemy" runs deep as well, with all the prerequisite chest thumping, hysteria and calls for "the enemies blood". To criticize those Muslims who view the U.S as a threat for expressing similar sentiments smacks of hypocrisy.

Now as far as "supporting Al Qaeda" is concerned, I would love if they also asked those people who supported it, what they actually thought Al Qaeda did in its "struggle" against the U.S. A majority do not even believe the group was behind the WTC attacks. Without understanding their impressions about Al Qaeda, only egregious conclusions, about their motivations behind supporting the group, can be drawn.

Islam and Free Speech are diametrically opposite. I think if Muslim population (typically Pakistani, Saudi Arabia and others like) increases inside USA, then we shall see something like:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/04/26/pakistan.burqa.reut/index.html

USA is used to having films in public theatres like "The Last Temptation of Christ" and "The DaVinci Code". These hit the bedrock of the Christian faith, and I am yet to see Christian groups killing non-Christians or liberal atheists. What would have been the fate of Sam Harris if he wrote the book END OF FAITH in a Muslim majority country ?

Victoria wrote:

"NOWHERE does it say muslims want to impose shariah law worldwide, or support al-qaeda"

It sure does say that majority (of Muslims) support the goals of Al Qaeda, and increase in attacks on US troops, because in the linked page we clearly find the following lines:

"Muslims Believe US Seeks to Undermine Islam

Majorities Want US Forces Out of Islamic Countries And Approve of Attacks on US Troops

Large Majorities Agree With Many Goals of Al Qaeda
But Oppose Attacks on Civilians

Most Support Enhancing Role of Islam in Their Society, But Also Favor Globalization and Democracy"

In my reading, precisely these views are very dangerous for USA and US citizens.

Since the link is not bogus (i.e. it is genuine), let the readers visit the link and decide for themselves.

Victoria:

Obviously you are a pathological case depicted by your penchant for rancorous verbiage.

Yes, I have stated that increased Muslim immigrantion could be potentially dangerous for USA. And they should not be here if they owe allegiance to Islam over US Constitution. I stand by what I wrote.

You, who wants to wave her Muslim flag (cresent preferred over stars and stripes) all the time to annoy others, is probably not an immigrant; so unfortunately my remarks would not apply to you or to Muslims like John Walker Lindh, Adam Yahyie Gadahn, unfortunately. (They are citizens by birth, like you.) Immigrants like Sami Al Arian, Mohamed Reza Taheri-Azar (naturalized US citizen) are of course under suspicion and should be swiftly deported back to their country of origin.

Get real !

"An in-depth poll of four major Muslim countries has found that in all of them large majorities believe that undermining Islam is a key goal of US foreign policy."

Winning hearts and minds indeed....

Perhaps I missed it (and I may very well have, being preoccupied with finals and all..), but was there extensive coverage of this poll in the U.S media like there is when a new poll comes out showing that Muslims support Al Qaeda (without showing information about what those Muslims think Alqaeda is and what it is responsible for)?

Any coverage of the thousands of people in the two largest cities in Pakistan protesting the pronouncements of enforcing Sharia Law by another Mullah thug? I hear all these people in the West decrying a lack of "show" from "moderate Muslims", yet their protests are barely mentioned. Lets make sure we headline the extremists though...

So is it not true then that the "push back" from "moderate" Muslims exists, indeed has existed all along, but it is just not sensational enough to headline and not violent enough to make for good television. I mean come on, no effigy burning, klashnikov firing, ransacking of public property..oh wait; its the "moderates", thats the kind of behavior they're protesting....

Muslims Believe US Seeks to Undermine Islam

An in-depth poll of four major Muslim countries has found that in all of them large majorities believe that undermining Islam is a key goal of US foreign policy. Most want US military forces out of the Middle East and many approve of attacks on US troops there.

Most respondents have mixed feelings about al Qaeda. Large majorities (3 in 10 polled)agree with many of its goals, but believe that terrorist attacks on civilians are contrary to Islam.
Most view globalization positively and favor democracy and freedom of religion.

These findings are from surveys in Egypt, Morocco, Pakistan, and Indonesia

Large majorities across all four countries believe the United States seeks to “weaken and divide the Islamic world.” On average 79 percent say they perceive this as a US goal, ranging from 73 percent in Indonesia and Pakistan to 92 percent in Egypt. Equally large numbers perceive that the United States is trying to maintain “control over the oil resources of the Middle East” (average 79%). Strong majorities (average 64%) even believe it is a US goal to “spread Christianity in the region.”

“While US leaders may frame the conflict as a war on terrorism, people in the Islamic world clearly perceive the US as being at war with Islam,” said Steven Kull, editor of WorldPublicOpinion.org.
. While wary of Western values, overall 67 percent agree that “a democratic political system” is a good way to govern their country and 82 percent agree that in their country “people of any religion should be free to worship according to their own beliefs.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
82% AGREE FREEDOM TO WORSHIP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The surveys were conducted between December 9, 2006 and February 15, 2007 using in-home interviews. In Morocco (1,000 interviews), Indonesia (1,141 interviews), and Pakistan (1,243 interviews) national probability samples were conducted covering both urban and rural areas. However, Pakistani findings reported here are based only upon urban respondents (611 interviews); rural respondents were unfamiliar with many of the issues in the survey. In Egypt, the sample (1,000 interviews) was an urban sample drawn probabilistically from seven governorates. Sample sizes of 1,000 –

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DEB, this is the article you cited-
NOWHERE does it say muslims want to impose shariah law worldwide, or support al-qaeda

you make conjectures that YOUR OWN ARTICLE DOESNT SUPPORT-

SUPPORT FOR ATTACKS ON CIVILIANS
Morocco 2.6%
Egypt 7.8%
Pakistan 1.4%
Indonesia 1.3%

Requiring Sharia Law in ISLAMIC COUNTRIES

Morocco 35%
Egypt 50%
Pakistan 54%
Indonesia 17%

Deb, you know as well as i, that if you post a link, most people will just assume it is validating your points, many times without even looking at it-

but YOU are posting a link that invalidates your posits-

first, this is a tiny poll of strictly muslim countries (1000 to 1300 people)

second- overwhelmingly even those polled favor democracy and freedom of religious worship

no where is eventual islamization of the planet even mentioned- you just made that up

and it is completely hilarious that you, as an immigrant, are telling other immigrants to GIT OUT AND GO BACK TO THEIR COUNTRY

you are like the archie bunker of this site
dont know who he is?
that means you havent been here very long
im born here, and ive never told anyone to GIT OUT

america love it or leave it- as i recall

mercy deb, next rant- dont provide the debunking material yourself, ok?
or do so- its too easy

OUT

I have repeatedly stated that Islam is a very barbaric and violent religion. Its goal is to spread the control of Islam to un-Islamic lands. Also, it advocates stricter control in those lands which is already majority Muslim (i.e. Islamic). The 9/11 events, followed by Iraq and Afghanistan war has gravitated the situation very badly. The thing that I see is Americans feeling guilty that they have a wrong perception of Islam, and appear apologetic to Muslims. This actually caves into the impossible demands of Muslims and Muslim countries. Maybe US Govt. would start doling out Federal $$$ for the annual pilgrimage to Mecca for Muslims living in USA. Call it political correctness and I call that appeasement of the minority (Muslims who are < 1% of the US population).

Despite being labelled as anti-Islam, anti-Muslim, anti-this, anti-that we still see visa applications from Muslims desiring to enter USA when, according to the general opinion of Muslims about USA and US foreign policies, USA is viewed as largely anti-Islam. Well, if that be so, why do you want to come here ? Why don't you stay back in your birth countries and serve Islam rather than living here in USA with deep-seated resentment ? Because of ever expanding Muslim presence, I have found that the once-cherished free-speech in USA is on its way to become a token museum piece. That of course, pleases followers of Allah, but not hard-nosed secularist sinners like me.

The general opinion in the Muslim world is that the Shariah law needs to be enforced and a support for Al-Qaeeda's general objectives and long-term goals which includes eventual Islamization of the planet, amongst many things. There is however, NO support for attacks on unarmed civilians and this is considered an act that is "haram" (forbidden) in Islam.

The appropriate website for the information is:

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/346.php?nid=&id=&pnt=346&lb=hmpg1

And, the blabber that columnists like Pamela Taylor and other pan-Islamists dish out are either reflective of their ignorance or they are plain obfuscators, here to promote the Islamic agenda of the Shariah in covert ways.

"Let IT be said, Let ITSELF be Written in O.U.R.S"

((((((( J.O.K.T.A.N. (True-EBERU's) Vs. you P.E.L.I.G. (False-EBERU's) ))))))

OR same as saying : APOCALYPTIC Hebrew HUMATES Vs. PRE-Apocalyptic Hebrew Humates;

Important: We evolved somewhere out of the "Magmatic Plasma" of the "Ocean Womb" near the Indian Ocean (Before the Pangia) and close by the Mid Eastern Africa coast or Plains. THUS WE ARE HEBREW's a/k/a EBERU (Comming and crawling from the Elements (not river) of the Beyonder).

Hence: LIFE IS A MIRACLE and Zero SIN by being born Naked. There is Truly and in Fact LIFE in Light or PHOTONS IN ALL LIFE animate and in animates. Ya Ya mons.

Note: it used to be, until the age of AQUARIUS came to in the 1990's and brought Man Kind out of the PISCES age, that the case was, costing Billions of Lives in vain, of they (Ancient superstitious Believers) Vs. Us (Non superstitious Eclatarians).

This is the CASE And Now "IT" (g-d) IS TIME!" (your reality on the move via TEMPERATURE of your Ecalti Miracle appearence between your Holy Cosmic Heart Beats of us being in the PALANDROME N.O.W. and as in O.U.R. Truth and Justice, Love.

BEHOLD: "Transfinity Mountain" [The HOME OF ECLAT ITSELF]. It's in Ottisville, Orange County, N.Y. and NOT JREUSALEM.

The "NEW SONG" [ushered-In by the Old Songs] has been handed to the ECLATi-On(s) of the JOKTAN Blood & Genetic Line instead.

Hence "The First Inheritence or BIRTH RIGHT" was PEACE FULLY taken away, NOT BY FORCE, but by the Power of OURS "HEURISTICS" of your ancient belief systems via the natural gift of an Eclati-on's "Insight and Pattern Recognition Powers" to see TRANSFINITY. And IT-IS-TIME!

Since G-d (YAHWAH, JEHOVA etc.) only Consents for a while, "The PELIG Line" of Ancient Mid East and Far East or West and In between them ALL, lost ALL BIRTH RIGHTS because of doing the Contrary and desecrating the ECLATI in you and ALL thing imagined or not! Sorry Bubb!

My Prophet Albert [May Peace be upon him & his diciples] REJECTED Mr. Moses et al, Mr. Jesus et al, Mr. Mohamad et al NOVELS (un Holy) because they ALL [Abrahamic] come from the disgusting "PELIG" [Division] Blood Line according to all those messengers or prophets mentioned above here.

Example: Albert Einstein & Dr. "Shiloh" Harry Theriault, myself, including half of the Space-Ship Earth "Humates" existing today, and that includes you Mr. Colso, Eclat & the Eclati of the Eclati-On is a matter of Truth & Justice for being able to see your own natural place within the ECLATi in ALL

via your INNATE-HEURISTICS by speaking (praying) and Meditaing (listening) via sitting,laying down, walking, sleeping & of your Miraculousappearence today that will evolute into another form again and again.

IMPORTANT" Check Any of your ABRAHAMIC faith Systems Scriptures if you do not believe this FACT! You Cannot escape ECLATi in Your TRANSFINITY (Reality on the move HEURISTICALLY).

Forgive me Brothers and Sisters but, the Eclati-On Faith is about having that "Holy Cosmic Feeling" of belonging, then seeing and then believing, like our Great Messenger Einstein

[May peace be upon him et al] taught us the proper approach to :The SCIENTIFIC METHOD, (to know, predict and Control) in our Reality. Wow Wow.

I have Goos Bumps and there are strong currents of Eclati-On waves floating through my Photo Finite Atomic Chemical Heuristic essence.

Let there be Elati-On Photons Always flow or blow your Cosmic Holy Heart beat way all Day ands Night, here and Beyond of the DUE TO BE MACHINE!

Eeeeee Haaaa. Praise the "LORD.GOD.Fearless.Unjealous.ALMIGHTY ECLATi. Ya Ya. : + )

Note: Our Great Prophet Albert Einstein [May Peace be upon him with his Eclati]. Was born from the JOKTAN [United] Humate blood line as the True and Lost HEBREW, not Jewish Nation instead.

By: Jacob JOZEVZ et al on Space-Ship Earth & Beyond.

CHAUHAN

You say that Jesus was just a "simple saint" and then you say "he never really died on the cross" If Jesus lied about His core reason for coming to earth, how could we possible regard him as a saint.

Jesus said prior to His crucifiction:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."

Jesus
John 3:14-19

What did Jesus save us from? Our natural proclivity for sin. "For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God" and "The wages of sin is death."

Paul could not create the story of Christ as we know it, although he did explain a lot of the mystery about the Grace of God's love.

The things that happened to Jesus did not take place in secret. He did not come stumbling out of a cave claiming to have heard from the Angel Gabriel.

Christ's life, ministry, crucifiction and resurrection all happened out in the open in the light of day and were witnessed by the masses. Any untruths could have been easily quashed according to eyewitness accounts.

He did bear our sins. He did rise from the dead. He does sit at the right hand of God and He will come again.

These are the facts and every person born into this world must deal with them.

P.S. When Jesus cried "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me" He was quoting scripture in accordance with prophecy. The scripture comes from Psalm 22, written 700 years before His birth. Read the passage. It details in specifics the agony Jesus would endure on the cross, even down to the soldiers casting lots for his garments.

It is a shame that Mr. Colson is claiming to know a lot about Islam while it appears he know very little about the essence of the religion itself.

His remarks about the violent history of Islam mixes religion with politics. Doesn't Christianity have a violent history too? Didn't the church/pope encourage and call for many violent crusades that killed many Christians and Muslims? In fact many scholars argue that the real reason behind the crusades was the violent destruction of the eastern church in order to guarantee the dominance of the Pope in Rome. None the less, the is not an indication of the violent nature of Christianity itself. In the same way, Islam is a religion that calls for peace and harmony with others. In fact, the Quran only allows use of force in self defense and in retaliation of aggression. Of course some men use that to explain unacceptable acts of violence but that exists in all religions and is not a proof of the religion itself being violent.

Another false claim is that Islam does not respect pluralism. In fact Islam clearly accepts Christianity and Judaism while the opposite is not always true. Also, under the rule of the Islamic empire many other faith lived and flourished securely including Hindus and others.

As for the fourth comment about the particularly violent factions that uses Islam to justify their violent actions, well it is by no means a proof of the religion being violent and it is no different than a Christian, a Jew or a Hindu trying to reinterpret the teaching of his/her faith to justify any violence he/she might be ready to commit. It just proofs that theses individuals are violent not the religion itself.

Finally, the very meaning of the word Islam is to surrender. In other words to surrender yourself to god the creator. The Quran calls numerous times in its text for the individual to be kind to his fellow human and to practice acts of generosity in their daily lives. This is the true spirit of the religion and core of its message not the violent words of the few that falsely claim to represent it.

Anonymous wrote:
"Jesus as God's Son who was crucified and raised from the dead so that they can be saved".

Can you prove he was son of God or raised from the dead[when he never really died on the cross]?
How can he save any one, when he couldn't save himself.
His last cry," Why have you [God]forsaken me"
Shows that he was just a simple saint later created by Paul to be the son of God.
He Saved people from what?

Using theology one can claim anything ;even claim the the Sun goes around the Earth.
Chauhan

Chuck,

Thanks for being bold enough to speak the truth even though what you are saying is not PC. It is refreshing to hear the truth from someone who is well known. We have too many cowards in our country that will not speak the truth or hold to their convictions. I pray that all Muslims would see Jesus as God's Son who was crucified and raised from the dead so that they can be saved.

Good idea. Why doesn't On Faith invite Robert Spencer to contribute? Or Irshad Manji? Or Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Or many others to counter all the nonsense that people like Pamela Taylor come up with.

Well, well, well. It took Newsweek and the Washington Post long enough to pose the one existentially big religious question of our time to this generous forum. As it turns out, Chuck Colson and Raymond Ibrahim may independently and separately agree on this point: in comparing Christian theology and ethics with Islamic theology and ethics and then comparing Christianity's history with Islam's history, one can only come to the conclusion that "it is the Crusaders —- not the jihadists —- who have contradicted their religion.":

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/ibrahim040607.html

For some reason, I'm not surprised that Jihad Watch director Robert Spencer hasn't contributed his response to this latest "On Faith" topic, using some of the most important discoveries he has made in his quest for 'The Truth About Muhammad...' such as the Battle of Badr, the adultery accusations against Aisha, the jihadi raid against the Jews of Khaybar, and the jizya for dhimmis in Muslim lands. (I like to call that last concept the Islamic version of income redistribution.) As for Christianity, Jesus could have been the most evil man who ever lived -- and I would not be surprised to learn that there are SOME people who actually believe such an assertion -- and NOTHING about Jesus' life would tell us anything about Muhammad's life. Can we start cleansing ourselves of this political correctness now... BEFORE President Armageddon pushes "the button," if you all catch my drift?

Wow, what a collage of junk. We have everyone quoting from the Bible, old and new, clearly out of context and using it to crucify Christianity itself. Well, let me give you all a quick lesson on Christianity. It is to be Christ-like. So if your life is not exactly like His, you are not His follower. Let me use a Scripture to clarify: 1 John 2:4 He who says "I know HIM" and does not keep HIS commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. Now, we all have free will. It is my will to post her, not God's will. God's will is clearly illustrated in the Bible. No other place. For the people who say they "heard from God", well, we can hear from many places. Ourselves, others, God, Satan, demons. So if it does not line up with Scripture, you did not hear it from God. So it is my will to post here, not His. Just as it is my free will to bomb abortion houses, not God's. Just as it is President Bush's free will to invade Iraq, not God's. BTW, the Revelation references are to the "Locusts" that sting men for 6 months. Not to you or I. Get it right if you are going to quote it.

BIBLE : TORTURE NON-BELIEVERS.

(i) Torture non-believers, but don't hurt trees

723. "4. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their fore heads. "
- Revelation, 9/4
According to Holy Bible, the value of a man's life is less than that of the grass, and the trees!

(ii) Don't kill non-believers, but torture them

124. "5. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months; and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man."
-Revelation, 95

The problem with all monotheistic religions is that they are inherently supremacist and intolerant. To see their adherents pointing fingers at each other would be funny, except for all the carnage.

A quick point that I wanted to make about Chucky Colson: Isn't this a guy who served a prison sentence for his role in Watergate? This guy was the Chief Counsel for Nixon. He is one of the guys who tried to undermine our democracy here in the U.S.

And isn't he someone who has now made it his life's work to reduce the violence in what he would term "a Christian Nation"?

Those violent criminals he is trying to rehabilitate in prison aren't Muslims. They are Christians. Now some of you will say that these criminals aren't "true Christians". But Muslims could claim the same thing.

Deb Chatterjee,

Your response was a very good one. Since I am not familiar with the religious text in Hinduism, I can not refute what you are stating here. I will take your word. And I will say that as far as I have seen, no radical Hindu quotes directly from his/her holy book to justify their violent actions.

It is sad that Islamic radicals quote the Quran to justify their violent actions. But I still maintain that Christian radicals do the same thing in justifying violence or condemning anyone who opposes their belief that Jesus Christ is the literal son of god.

Can you fathom how a group of people believe that Gandhi is condemned to Hell because he did not proclaim Jesus Christ as his lord and saviour?

Or that little babies that never made it to baptism due to unforeseen death are now burning in hell?

What kind of people hold such crazy beliefs? The answer is people no different than nuts hiding in caves promising 72 virgins to suicide bombers.

i would like to make note that i just finished my afternoon prayer- so that is my state of mind in this composition-

also this happens 5 times a day, so at least 5 times a day i have this reasonable attitude(however i am inclined to believe the reason overlaps from prayer to prayer)

Muslims comprise the most diverse population of any grouping on the planet, yet people still persist in believing fox news perceptions-

id say the proof is in the pudding-

witness the very apparent examples on these boards-

where do you see angry and abusive muslims here?

do you see muslims name calling and castigating others?
acting impolitely, judging others, slandering others?

id say there is a disproportionate amount of reasonable response to overt aggression here-

and yet it doesnt strike anyone as indicative of islamic manners and behavior?

while i see a preponderance of verbal violence against muslims-

is this verbal violence and abuse answered back in reciprocal manner?

there are even those who mislead others by using arabic names, and then propagating outright hatred and vitriol-

has anyone seen a corollary malice in return?

or even anger?

if islam is filled with out of control emotional and anger filled adherents, why dont we see any evidence of it here?

people respond with outright irrational emotions controlling their every word- but the muslims remain reasoned.

it is a phenomenon that certainly deserves mention and attention.

peace all

Att: Cyber Space and the Real Space et al:

(((((( The "LIGHT--BRINGER" IS COME ALREADY ))))))

The "B.R.I.G.H.T.M.E.N.T." is come already.

DANIEL DENNETTE does not know "SHILOH" The Light Bringer", but Daniel is copying and practicing stuff from "The Book Of Transfinity" for his own purposes.?!?????

That book Prophecized the "Sectarian thinking & Biblo Maniac incarnation that fanatics will created, produced or brew from and out of their backwards Pre-apocalyptic religious system and will again go against ALL HUMATES when it gets an Evil chance etc....

Unfortunately, At the time it was printed (1998) that book was seen as Dangerous to some big “Decision Makers” and succeeded (hence ECLAT Consents but only for a TIME) ON EXTRACTING that book of TRANSFINITY FROM PUBLIC HANDS OR KNOWLEDGE.

There occurred many many Legal Court battles. And "Shiloh The Light Bringer" prevailed, and hence, over ruled the very judicial system that tried to kill the ECLATi-On Faith!

WHEREFORE: We win and YOU loose. So Throw Down your Biblio Maniac Weapons or some one else's Un-Godly Scriptures of Mass destructions. Please.

Or else you will be so LOST in your lLIFE LONG QUEST and as in constant search for your own Genuine Love in your HEIRISTICS.

WE have OVER COME. And So will each and every one of YOU, so help me Eclati, one Photon at a Humate Time! Ya Mon! I got the GOOSY BUMPS! Praise G-d! Ya.

P.S. I spent 28 years searching until:

(((((( I-FOUND-The E.C.L.A.T.i-In-My-ME ME ))))))

[the "g-d stuff" and thing, in ALL things of the Atomic and chemicals & beyond that is in Light & Dark Energy and in Light & Dark Matter & beyond of ITs ONE BIG SOURCE of a Cosmic Holy Heart Beat that WEE are all a part of the whole] Ya Ya.

How much can I explain IT or ITSELF to anyone but the self?! Wow Wow! Praise the greatest of ALL, the ECLATI and all Eclati-Ons too.

Anonymous,

The post about 'Brightenment' is under my signature. Sorry for the mix-up.

Anonymous,

Your point of April 24 at 2:56 a.m., whther Islam is capable of Enlightenment.

I shall amaze you by saying that what is happening in the Muslim world these days is not just Enlightenemtn but 'Brightenment'. I agree that it is still tenuous, but it is fast gaining ground and bcoming consolidated and self-aware.

What is 'Brightenment'? That is a movement that The Brights (in part led by Daniel Dennnett) sought to launch, but then they became fundamentalist atheists rather than spiritual agnostics or spiritual seekers-after-truth (what Muslims would call sufis). In the spirit of Jala-ud-Din Rumi, Omar Khayyam, Allama Muhammad Iqbal and other luminaries, the Muslims who are behind the Brihtenment movement re-read (not revise) the Quran in light of current and announced scientific and technological developments, question themselves whether there really are irreconcilable differences with not only verifiable facts but with 'the known knowns, the unknown knowns, the known unknwons, and the unknown un knowns'. They seek to define the limits of the knowable and gauge the extent of the unknowable.
It seems to me (but I don't exclude the possibility that I am dismissed as crazy or a heretic) that these Sufis are ready to explore the concept of God as the Ultimate Consciousness, and are ready to use artificial intelligence and quantum computing concepts and methods to settle whether this modern concept of God actually contradicts the hundred names of Allah that Muslims have always been taught to recite in adoration of their Creator.

It appears that many of the arguments on this page deal with history of violence in religions. I'd like to point out that Mr. Colson was primarily addressing the beliefs and secondarily mentioned the history of violence in Islam while admitting that Christians had been violent in the past as well. He didn't condone either side.

If we're really trying to understand what the beliefs are of a religion, we should look at what the scriptures say, rather than argue that Muslims blow things up or Christians act like morons. This was brought up to be an intelligent discussion, not a finger-pointing, religion-bashing spree.

Since it's been addressed very little, and since I actually care to have an answer rather than proselytize, could someone please address what the Q'ran actually says about violence towards non-believers?

I've also heard of a rule that you use when studying the Q'ran that whatever is dated later in the scriptures trumps earlier writings. What, then, is the latest scripural reference about violence, in context?

Att: Mr. & Mrs. G R E G O R et al:

Our Great Father of "Relativity" and our "Cosmic Holy Prophet", Albert Einstein et al did say that, There is LIFE in PHOTONS and therein and thereof is some "SPOOKY STUFF" about IT (G-d thing) and or ITSELF (Nature Law as G-d) in ALL things animate and in ALL inanimate via O.U.R. TRUE (One Universal religion) TRANSFINITY (Reality in TEMPERATURE [a/k/a TIME] on the Move) via us too.

Hence: Our Prophet and his disciples, like me, know that "WE NEVER CAN DIE" just enjoy G-D as being our ETERNITY AVOIDING LONLINESS, Eternally via us of whom we are from Magma but also companions for IT and by ITSELF.

So be good on this Space-Ship Momma/Poppa Earth & Beyond with IT, your ECLATi as O.U.R.S. own kind.

Our Prophet knew that "The Great Attractor" exists.

And in around 3-Billion Years from Now(not in Photon/Light Years) that our Great Grand Daddy “Milky Way Galaxy”, and parts of our and other solar System(s) et al, will eventually be [Gravitationally coupled]

crashing into our near and similar neighbor(s), the Great Grand Ma “Andromeda Galaxy”.

Note: Our Prophet Einstein also knew that Grandma SUN is a 13 Billion year "Sequence Star System." So EARTH and almost our sun, is now 4.98-Billion Years older [Thanks to our Father-NEBULEA],

starting from the "FLASH" FIRST (Photons Life) and then followed by by the so called "BIG BANG" [Waves, music] second. All in the Holy Cosmic Heart Beat being in the PALANDROME.

Hence: We on Earth only have, before THE-REAL-APOCALYPSE and REVELATION, 6-Billion years Left to go POOF-TIME in Eternity avoiding L onliness Phenomenon. But the MERGER with Andromeda Galaxy will happen in 3-4-Billion years from now first!

You go figure! S H O L O M and "Let There Be..." PHOTONS. Ya Ya Momma Poppas and tons a Mons in E.C.L.A.T.i. in ALL FORMS in TIME. WOW!

Life is indeed a miracle and now we ALL know that being born (I.e., Anti Abortionist) is A MIRACLE. Ya! No?

ALL Ancient Pre-Apocalyptic belief Systems will go POOF-TIME in their superstitious Heuristical moments, And as if climbing out of a Black Hole from the "Event Horizon" of ones Apocalyptic thinking HUMATE(s)..

Robert,

I am awfully sorry, but you cannot make accusations without substantiating them, as I do with the arguments I put forth. I substantiate my arguments by source (most often secondary, mocern historians of excellent repute, at other times primary historians who, like Xenophon and Thucidides and Ibn Khaldun, Al Biruni and Ibn Battuta, accompanied generals in their campigns [ many of these being defensive or counter-offensive]), by numbers (200,000 tents -- in modern terms households -- Kharakanids who converted in one single collective gesture) and by dates.

Please do the same or else I shall just stop the exchange. You are of course entitled to your opinion, and I am not trying to convert you or even deliver The Message to you (there are others better qualified than me to do that). I am just telling the truth the way the authorities I quoted would be telling them to you if they were participating in this debate.

I wish you all the very best and God Bless!

BigD:

Sorry bro, I would have to do some more research. But for now, yea, let's go with the broad approach.

Robert wrote:

"They don't burn efigees of Bush. Instead they burn efigees of Richard Gere for jokingly kissing a Bollywood star on camera."

I agree with you. But, such actions cannot be justified by quoting any religious text (in the Hindu tradition) that have been considered as canonical. Islamic radicals do quote the Quran to show directly that their actions are religiously valid.

at least Jacob is agreeing with you.

now lets hear another angry/profane response!

Russel D -

So you are talking in a broad sense then. Common beliefs held by many religions. Not anything specific that Jesus taught - like a quote or something?

This would be a very funny debate were it not a symptom of what causes people to kill each other.

The magical beings that I believe in are better than the magical beings that you do. And I will kill you if you do not believe in the beings that I believe in.

What idiocy!

This is the 21st Century people! Get a grip. Go read a book on Physics.

Att: A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.,

J.A.N.E.T.

B.I.G D. et al:

Ya Ya Mommas Poppas Mons,

On: "Enlightment" et seq. HARK HUMATES:

BEHOLD: The "Joktanian People" are among us NOW!

HENCE: As already "revealed and Prophecyed"

T.H.E. A.P.O.C.A.L.Y.P.S.E. is in motion today.

(((((( The "LIGHT--BRINGER" IS COME ALREADY ))))))

And "Chuck" Colson et al know this as true! Ya Mons. Ya. He knows. But he will not reveal here. SO;

Praise Eclati my SOURCE-ONE G-d Almighty. AND;

Let there be PHOTONS in your TRANSFINITY. S.H.O.L.O.M. : + ) Ya Ya in reality.

Jacob:

You Da' MAN!

Anon:

What, hard to believe? Comedy?

I laugh everytime I read the Bible. Thas Funny S**t right there!

Att: Big D & Russel D. et al:

Did you know that "KRISHNA" is Identical (94%) to JESUS the CHRIST? Did you?

Did we forget Ahura Mazda [The Zoroastrians} and the Budha similarity.

And that Seihkism, is a mixture of not just muslim & Hindu teachings but also incorporated ABRAHAMIC concepts too. Just via a little twist or two or three. Know what I mean?