All Comments (48)

Ashley (February 18, 2007 10:23 PM), when you say, "That statement merely betrays Lewis' ignorance of the world outside of England" you are obviously ignorant of the fact that C.S. Lewis was NOT English. He was Irish. So of course he was very familiar with the world outside of England. He lived in it!

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Chuck I am with you and oneof your first books I read as a teenager really helped me..God Bless you

MOBPO? Cat got your fingers?

Here is the relevant text from the KJV. Tell me where I went wrong.

1 Corinthians 7
1Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

...

6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

7For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.

9But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

"You were taught wrong as a young man... sex is so good and so powerful as to require profound respect and proper use."

Granted I was taught wrong. Granted sex requires respect and proper use.

But how does my interpretation misrepresent Paul? His words seem pretty straight forward to me.

John Conolley:
"[P]recisely where does Paul say covenant sex is bad? might someone please refresh my memory."

The question is loaded by adding the word covenant. If I understand the beginning of Corinthians 7 correctly, He's saying the only reason to marry is to avoid fornication, and it's better to stay single and chaste, but if you can't contain yourself, then marry, because it's better to marry than burn. Now, a lot of translations have added "with passion" or the like to the end of that, but I was taught as a young man that it was better to marry than to burn in hell, because sex is so evil that god will burn you forever for having it, except under one very constricted circumstance.

Or to boil it down, sex is evil, but you get an exemption from punishment if you're married."

Dear John, you were taught an incorrect interpretation as a young man, the same incorrect interpretation posited by the early gnostics (the flesh is evil) and the Manicheans. both were recognised by authentic Christian Churh as being heretical sects.

You were taught wrong as a young man. helluva time to tell a fellow sex is SO bad that marriage is simply a 'Plan B' to avoid eternal damnation. no wonder you rejected the teaching.

but the pendulum swinging far out the other way is fraught with error too. error and destruction.

the most holistic (whole) view of sex is likewise the most edifying: sex is so good and so powerful as to require profound respect and proper use.

societal ills bear this out. SLATE Magazine just ran an article called "Is Recreational Sex Bad for Girls?" they can hardly pronounce a resounding 'yes' as to ruin their thinmking-man's-hip facade, but they can't help but alude to the answer 'yes.'

but don't take their word for it. just look around.

Dear Sir I think your title "Sex within Moral Boundaries Is a Beautiful Act" is very powerful. Where you lose focus is where you start to judge other religions in terms of Christianity. Don't do that. It blinds you.

"[P]recisely where does Paul say covenant sex is bad? might someone please refresh my memory."

The question is loaded by adding the word covenant. If I understand the beginning of Corinthians 7 correctly, He's saying the only reason to marry is to avoid fornication, and it's better to stay single and chaste, but if you can't contain yourself, then marry, because it's better to marry than burn. Now, a lot of translations have added "with passion" or the like to the end of that, but I was taught as a young man that it was better to marry than to burn in hell, because sex is so evil that god will burn you forever for having it, except under one very constricted circumstance.

Or to boil it down, sex is evil, but you get an exemption from punishment if you're married.

18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

You missed part of it Sheila. It's up to us to make the effort to get along. :-D If the other person is still acting like a Chucklehead then our concience is clear.

Romans 12:18 "If possible, live at peace with all".

Even sacred scripture refers to the fact that not every one may be possible to be at peace with... :)

Keep smiling!

"One of the great problems that society has is this view of all or nothing. Where either you're with my side 100% or 0%. I have a hard time equating that with being open minded."

Excellent point Greg. I recently read a book called "The Arguement Culture" that was written about this very subject.

I think that rendering mute all the good works done by Chuck Colson and Prison Ministries because the founder spent some time in prison is a glowing example of this all or nothing culture of debate.

I know I have defending an indefensible position or attacked with a disingenuous argument just because I was going *against* someone who I disagreed with and I didn't want to concede anything to them. One time it occured to me, thankful before I hopped into one of these either/or online arguements, what do I get if I win this arguement, a trophy?

Sheila: If we do have a soley just God as you said, wouldn't we all have a miserable eternity to look forward to? Always remember to give others grace.

Sheila,
I'm glad you found something useful in my posts. But I need to point out that I've had several conversations with BA'AL and found him to honest and polite. We disagree on many things but he has always been respectful of my view and I have returned the favor. He's not the 'typical' atheist that despises people of faith. Please keep in mind Romans 12:18, last I checked there were no exceptions to that passage. :-D

I don't agree with every stance Chuck takes but I always listen, then decide. He's an easy target with his strong stances and his criminal past. The problem is that people only see things like gay marriage and abortion and fail to see his work with prisoners, sex slaves etc... Of course those stances don't make good copy so the press never reports those...

All this bickering sure makes for a great read. Does anyone actually have anything important to say?

Hey Greg, all I have to say is that Ba'al, Angela and Ashley deserve each other!

Like you said, I too judge people by the content of their heart and their ability to bring about good in others lives. I sense only darkness and unhappiness with the afore mentioned bloggers.

If we do have a just God, they will end up together in Eternity finding fault with each other,condemning, criticising, blasting away like the bags of hot air that they are!

What in the world are people like that doing on a blogging column dealing with God and religion?

Why must they bring others down to their dark and distasteful level? I guess misery loves company.

Thanks for trying to UP the quality and class of the blog.
The world needs more people who look for the good in others and try to lift them up and not kick them when they are down!

Blessings!

GEEZ!! I gotta tell you guys, you dissappoint me. I read with interest what Chuck Colson said regarding sex vs sin or sacredness. I found his thinking to be right on target with my own. I am a Catholic convert from protestantism. Also, a recovering addict. I am almost afraid to admit that! Does being an addict make me someone who wouldn't know anything about morality? Why wouldn't Chuck Colson be an expert on morality?
Why would ANYONE have to say such hateful things about a man they don't even know? Chuck screwed up, he paid his dues and now he is spending the remaining time on this earth by ministering to prisoners. What are the rest of you 'moral experts' doing? may I ask? How do you spend your days and nights? Oh, yes, I guess I pretty much know. By bashing anyone who is trying to do good by redeeming himself with what we Catholic christians call 'Corporal works of mercy'!

Mercy.
Any of you moral critics know the meaning of the word and what 'forgiveness' means?
I am sure that the bloggers who want to share what to them are their religious beliefs agree with me when I ask those who are mean spirited and hateful to tone down nastiness that these blogs are taking on.

Blessed are the merciful for mercy shall be theirs!

Practice what we preach, fellas!

Sheila

Oh, uh OK. Traitor is a very strong word to toss around. Would you put Sandy Burger in the same class then?

And since his opinions are based on his so called conversion then do you hold the same contempt for Christians? And are his ministries that bad? If he is still scum then logically it would follow that anything he did would fall into the same class. After all a rose by any other name is still a rose.

Funny, you both believe that criminals can be redeemed.

Greg,

Your thinking is incorrect. Many criminals can be redeemed, but Chuck Colson is not one of them. He is a traitor to this nation. Had he not been caught in his treason, his so-called conversion would never have happened. The only change he made in his life is the method he uses to disseminate his contemptible opinions.

Ad hominum arguments do a great job of making a point. I really love the sheer display of class I have seen on here.

Who cares about sex. I want some slaves!!!

1st Peter 2 (NIV):

13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Hey...maybe I could have a sex-slave!!!

Angela and Ashley,
Am I correct in thinking that you believe that once you've gone to prison that's it, you're scum and always will be? So you'd lump Martha Stewart into this group? What about Li'l Kim? It's attitudes like yours that make it so hard for ex prisoners to have ANY shot at a decent life. Yea, Colson became a Christian while he was in prison. He's never hidden the fact that he's an ex-felon or that he deserved to go to jail. But is prison fellowship a fraud? What about angel tree? Should the kids of prisoners get scarlet letters as well or should we do our best to make sure they don't go to prison as their parents did? Who would you listen to about consenquences of bad choices anyway, someone who made bad choices and lived with the consenquences or someone who hasn't? Who would be better about talking to people about drugs, some professor or an ex-addict? What about prison, someone who's never been there or an ex-con?

Ok.......let me see if I get this. Christians know more about love? am I being punk'd? Dude, love is not a christian specialty. Love is part of it, but it is hampered by hate. Hate for a fellow man who will not follow, and hate for another religion claiming they are better. I am sure that there have been some great Christian poets who have written about love, but to say God is love, well that's just plain simplistic. Have you read the Old Testament? God was an angry guy who didn't like anybody. He toyed with people and killed anybody who didn't follow His word. sounds like a dictator to me. God didn't invent love. Man did. God didn't make man. Man made God.

Ashley:
I like you and your responses. I wanna take you out for a night on the town.

Regarding this "subject": Never take sex advice from someone who hasn't done what he or she preaches. I can't go and give advice on how to properly fasten nipple clamps because I haven't done it(yet). My point is this: Sex inside marriage is beautiful, I agree. Sex outside of marriage is also beautiful. Sex in all forms is beautfiul, but can turn ugly by people who use it in an evil manner. Even sex in marriage can be ugly. It just depends on how the people participating use it.

Isn't it interesting....so many people find God after their crimes surface.

Is Charles Colson so dense he really believes he has any right to advise anyone, about anything?? What arrogance!

Charles Colson is giving advice about sex!!!! It's too bizzare to be believed.

actually clive staples lewis is right you see, because God is Love. God is the source of Love. While other cultures have delved into the euros love or the phileo love, none have captured the true agape love as christians have. those are the different Greek variations of love for all of the scholars out there

Robert Irwin,

C.S. Lewis was dead wrong when he claimed that nearly all the great love poetry has been produced by Christians. That statement merely betrays Lewis' ignorance of the world outside of England. Love poetry is an ancient art which virtually every culture with written language has practiced.

Hey Chuck,

What moral boundaries were you operating within when you were assisting Nixon's attempt to subvert our republic?

I'll take my sex advice from people who haven't betrayed their country and then used religion to turn a quick buck, thank you very much.

even if this whole God thing is made up, what will be lost if you at least try to live your life according to the Word's teaching. For all the atheist, you will still be a great person. But remember, the road is narrow, and few find it. Why do you think at least 75 percent of all the responses in the faith section (which are sought out by nonbelievers on their on volition) are against what the man of God has to say. By the way Ba al, I cant stand you, but you are very wise. But I think your wisdom hurts you more than it helps you.

There's no way to get this wrong unless you are trying. Of course the Christian Church (in authentic, official teaching) teaches sex is intrinsically good. (while tertullian and augustine were highly considered, theirs was NOT infallible teaching. and precisely where does Paul say covenant sex is bad? might someone please refresh my memory.)

Consider Scripture itself. Here's a good starting point: you don't even have to BELIEVE that Scripture is the inerrant word of God to know for certain that Judeo/ Christian teaching is "God made sex good". In Genesis, the FIRST command God gives to living things is this: Be fruitful and multiply.

God commanded sex. but in what context? to ALL things, the boundaries are 'Be fruitful". To the human person, he gave sex in the context of covenant.

"Chuck Colson is an idiot" banter aside; "Christians are anti-gay" rhetoric aside; "Christians are intollerant bigots" assertions aside; IN FACT, the first command to living things in the Book all Christians consider holy is this: BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY.

Sex is one of God's most beloved ideas. that may be precisely why it is so abused.

the Christian Church does not teach sex is bad, but it warns of the grave dangers of misused sex. sex is one of God's most powerful ideas. that is probably why misuse of sex has such a devastating consequences. spiritual, emotional, social, economic and physical consequences.

Christianity most definitely does teach that sex is evil. I give you fathers of Christianity: Tertullian, Jerome, Augustine, and the Apostle Paul himself. They were all against it. Viciously, hatefully against it.

Cute how Colson thinks sex in wedlock is fine, but does his best to see that the homosexual can never be married. What are they supposed to do, Colson? Be permanantly chaste to please you?

You know what the problem is? These good Christians hate homosexuality because the idea of two men having sex disgusts them. Believe me, they feel the same way about how you do it.

Way 2 go Greg, a real, honest and for real "open minded thinker"; the guy's got no fear. Fear is the root for the "all or nothing" mentality, as it exposes one's need to be "in control". Bottom line is, if our view is rejected, we take it personally and hate the thing, whether it be a person or religion, and throw it alll out. We do ourselves a great injustice by doing so. Losing the precious baby with the dirty bathwater is just too sad... but that is what fear does...
We all want what's best for us, and we all know that the TRUTH sets us free, so if we have it, we are free, and if we don't, and it gets exposed for the lie that it is, then we should be happy! Never fear another opinion or belief, if it is true, you'd want it, if it is a lie, time will expose it.
This is my two bits...

BA'AL,
Here is how I deal with any Christian leader. I listen to what they say with an open mind and I comapare what they say with my own knowledge of the bible. If the two match then I take it to heart. If they don't, then it goes in the circular file. They are people and imperfect but I won't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I don't agree with Colson on many issues so I don't stand with him on those, however programs like prison fellowship, angel tree etc., do great things for prisoners and their families so I do support those.

One of the great problems that society has is this view of all or nothing. Where either you're with my side 100% or 0%. I have a hard time equating that with being open minded.

Look at the abortion issue. How many times have you heard from both sides that 'so and so is pro-'X' so I won't vote for them!' Huh? It's important, yes but what about immigration, education, national security and taxes?

So I would urge you to also be open minded and to avoid like the plague the all or nothing mentality.... Hope you have a great weekend...

Greg

You asked a lot of questions, and the answer is that the defense of marriage is something that people like Colson and Dobson use as a club to beat people over the head, and nobody likes STDs or divorces, or any of that. But Dobson et al are intolerant bigots.

You, however, are clearly not a bigot, given that you see clearly enough to quote the line from Romans the way you did. So, I beg you not to listen to people like Colson, Dobson, Robertson and Falwell, they are snake oil salesmen and they are not good for you.

Colson's post echoes what C.S. Lewis once said, "Christianity has glorified marriage more than any other religion: nearly all the great love poetry in the world has been produced by Christians. If anyone says that sex, in itself, is bad, Christianity contradicts him at once.”

A proper expression of Christian sexuality should declare the glory of sexuality within Scriptural boundaries (marriage) as forcefully as it details the prohibitions.

Joe, you have some proof of that?

" sex course language "
-lol, would that be "labia majora" and the like?

"Is Prison Fellowship and it's outreaches a fraud as you imply? If the conversion is a fraud so is everything he's done since then."
- Finally out of all that drivel you get something right. Of course it's a fraud, wake up.

BA'AL
Don't worry, I've hit post before and then realized I didn't put my name. Happens to all of us...

Let me ask you this. Would it be reasonable to say that sex outside of a committed realtionship is fraught with issues. Setting Christianity aside and focus on emotion and worth.

Casual sex has these risks
STD's (getting the most common one increases the woman's chance of cervical cancer by 70%)
Unwanted Pregancy and then abortion which is a whole nuther discussion...
Reducing something special into something banal...
One partner getting used by the other one...

Sex in a committed relationship (IE both partners are faithful to each other) carrys almost none of the risks.

The Judeo/Christian view understands this and that's why the boundries are placed as they are. (I don't know enough about Islam to comment)It's to help keep people from making decisions that have long term and sometimes fatal consenquences. Those boundries aren't there simply to keep people from having fun, it's to allow them to experience the fullness to intimacy.

The violence he is talking about are the consenquences of casual sex and how it goes against how God designed us. We all know people who have been used sexually, who've jumped in the sack too quickly and then been hurt as a result. Look how rampant AIDS is especially in Africa. How many young women get talked into sex in HS and then dumped soon after while the male pursues his next conquest? It happened when I was in HS (20 years ago) and I doubt it's gotten better since then.

I understand that many Christians get all worked up about homosexuality etc., and they focus so much on it that they are blind to Romans 12:18 and the golden rule. Yes to Christians it's immoral, but it's not our place to judge, and it's unfair to judge someone simply by what they do in the bedroom.

As far as Colson goes, he did the crime and the time and in their view a culture war is going on. Some of it you may agree with and some you may not. I would expect nothing less from you. I tend to listen, see if it lines up with my faith and then decide because I don't agree with every stand Focus on the Family or Colson takes. I do take into account the messanger, but I rarely dismiss things off hand like that. It's dishonest...

Are all their views that draconian? Is reducing the amount of sex course language and violence on TV that bad? Is trying to keep porn away from kids horrible? Is the effort to help married couples stay married that evil? Are their efforts to help parents raise children to be moral something to worry about? Dr. Dobson is very aware that Christians have similar divorce rates as everyone else and he wants to lower all divorce rates. From your post that is how it looks on my monitor.

And has Colson been that hypocritical since he got out of prison? Is Prison Fellowship and it's outreaches a fraud as you imply? If the conversion is a fraud so is everything he's done since then.

Charles,

Stop worrying about sin so much and focus on compassion.

You'll get to Heaven faster.

It strikes me too as strange that Mr. Colson, of all people (actually, saying "of all people" is not accurate since it elevates him to a class by himself, but in reality, he occupies the den of miscreants, not alone but with many denizens) should be pontificating about moral boundaries.

I read the comment from another poster that somehow, because Mr. Colson is who he is (or more correctly, according to that poster, was who he was) he has some standing. Actually, the issue is more than standing or experience, it is whether he has a moral compass. If it were otherwise, we might as well have convicted murderers talking about the sanctity of human life.

One sure index of why Colson does NOT have that moral compass is that he uses every chance he gets to talk about it. This dissembling and decompensating is all a PR effort.

It is noteworthy that Colson writes about moral boundaries at about the same time that the Post offers its pages to Douglas Feith to justify what he did vis-a-vis intelligence reports on Iraq.

On a more substantive note, as I have posted in response to another one of these nitwit panelists, sex has nothing to do with religion in the sense of spirituality or faith -- it has everything to do with being human.

But "to bring pleasure to those having sex" is the "moral and social purpose" that sex serves!! The best laid plans of mice and men are seldom as successful as the best laid mice and men!!

Oops. Ba'al wrote the post at 935 am about Mr. Colson's views on sex.

Desmond Tutu was a political prisoner, placed in prison because he was a political opponent of the ANC. Charles Colson was placed in prison for crimes he committed while in public service. For those crimes, seven months in prison and was released early, in part because of his claimed conversion.

Here is some exegesis of his current essay for the sake of discussion: Colson writes, "sex outside of marriage does violence to the picture we’ve been given of Christ and His Church". Note use of the word 'violence', it is quite telling and he chose it carefully I am quite sure. That means that anytime somebody does something out side of the narrow bounds of one-man-one-woman-within-wedlock, he/she is "doing violence" to his Christian beliefs. What follows is the idea that the perpetrators should be sanctioned for this violence, legally if possible. Look at what right-wing nutcases (like Colson's friends at Focus on the Family) write about "the culture wars" and you will see that this idea is pervasive -- that THEY are the victims of anti-Christian intolerance. In fact, Colson himself has referred to this issue as "the Armageddon of the culture war".

In 2003 Mr. Colson wrote an essay criticizing the Texas Supreme Court for striking down a law that made homosexuality illegal. He wrote:

"Instead of serving moral and social purposes, sex's overriding purpose was to bring pleasure to those having sex. ...

It's these attitudes, and the worldview that produces them, that have fueled the gay-rights movement. It rolls on because it resonates with what many Americans believe.

And that means that the only way to slow it down is to change the terms of the debate: to once again establish that we are not lower than the animal species, that sex is not for recreation—it is for procreation."

BA'AL,
You know, I was going to leave this topic alone until I saw your cynical response that just begged for an answer. It's precisely because he made bad moral choices and went to prison that he has some ground to stand on. Most people learn more from their mistakes than their successes, and we would agree that he paid a high price for that series of mistakes.

If someone else (Desmond Tutu) had made the same essay would your response have been the same? And if you treat him with such contempt then is it safe to assume that anyone who goes to jail gets the same treatment? After all if he does not deserve a second chance as you (and many others)infer then nobody does?

Do you think this attitude is a reason why so many prisoners return to jail?

I agree -- of course, we may differ in defining those "moral boundaries".... by my definition, there can be nothing immoral about any consensual act between persons who are competent to make decisions for themselves!! PanDeism teaches that God became the Universe to share in all of our experiences, and our good experiences are shared with God.... when a man hires a prostitute to bring him to orgasm with her mouth, God experiences that wonderful orgasm (and the prostitute should rejoice in giving God that wonderful experience); when homosexual lovers allow their lust to explode in one anothers anuses, God delights in the pleasure of that moment; when a man (or woman) sits in front of the computer and masturbates while viewing pornography or engaged in an anonymous chat, God enjoys that orgasm just as much!!

Let us not disgrace God by denying ourselves the wonderful gift of sexual titillation, the pleasures of sex games, and the ultimate joy of sexual orgasm!! It is that denial that is the greatest immorality!!

How convicted felon Charles Colson could be considered an expert on morality of any sort is a mystery to me.

Religion and Sex
“Why do you think some religions have regarded sex as sacred while others have regarded it as a sin?”
Posted by Sally Quinn and Jon Meacham on February 14, 2007 7:30 AM

How can they get away with such a question being posted at the same time as this answer?