All Comments (149)

My hero - Chuckles the Watergate Clown. I would rather go to hell than stand next to this fascist - the author of Nixon's enemies list.

Robin,
If you would read further in regards to the permissibility of a man to beat his wife in Islam you will find that:

A) First and foremost the wife should be admonished if she is doing something which is contrary to her relationship with Allah (God). This means telling the wife: hey listen, Allah asks us to do this, you are not doing this, you are doing something else, so i would like you to stop disobeying Allah; or something like that. If she is not listening then they should consult a more knowledgeable person in regards to the matter such as a religious scholar who knows the intricate details of the laws of Allah.

B) Second step would be to stop sharing the bed with her.

C) Third step would be to hit her lightly with a miswak (a smaller and thinner than a toothbrush size stick) very lightly and never ever to hit the face and never to hit to cause physical damage. This is more of a symbolic act. See numerous hadiths (teachings and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad) regarding this

D) If the above fails, then the final recourse is divorce.

This is my knowledge and Allah knows best.

Wayne,
If you would like to follow an example, follow the example of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). His life is recorded in very great detail. Prophet Jesus (Peace be upon him) was also an individual such as Prophet Muhammad. However, no reliable accounts of his life exist today and the scripture which is being held today by those who say they follow the message of Jesus (Peace be upon him) is corrupt and not in the original form as it was revealed to him by Allah (God-Almighty). The scripture which is held by the Muslims, the Quran, still remains as it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) in the arabic language 1428 years ago (lunar calendar) which is approimately 622 A.D. If you are an English speaking person you can locate the English translation of the meanings of the Quran online. The Quran cannot and will not be corrupted because it is the one book which will be protected by Allah (God-Almighty) until the Day of Judgment.

Weja & Chris Smith,
I agree with you about the situation of SOME Muslims as they practice the religion of Islam. I ask Allah to guide us all and make us of those who follow ALL his teachings. We are imperfect individuals and as such we err quite frequently. As you are aware there is a spritual reawakening which is going on within the Muslim world after a long period of spiritual decline caused by the colonialization and exploitation of the Muslim lands and people. This awakening towards following Islam as it should be practiced is being hampered by the dictatorial regimes who are kept in power by the Neo-Imperialist powers of today such as the GOVERNMENTS of Great Britain, Israel & US. These regimes and not most of the people of these nations (who are being used as pawns) are the ones responsible for many of the problems today and God-willing the real Muslims will overwhelm them.

Patriot,
This is in regards to your comment that Islam is a threat to Christians. The message of Islam is a continuation of the revelations sent to the Prophets and Messengers who were sent to humanity before the Prophet Muhammad among which include Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Lot, Noah, Moses, Jesus (Peace be upon them all). The message is that there is no god worthy of worship except Allah, the One and Only, who has no partner and no son(s) or daughters, and that Muhammad is the final Prophet and Messenger of Allah. I think this is the first commandment of Moses (Peace be upon him) if I am not mistaken. This message is to be delivered to the whole of mankind until the Day of Judgment. If you think it's a threat than so be it. In my opinion and in the opinion of the Muslims the power of this message is the difference between eternal life in the hellfire or eternal life of bliss in the Gardens of Eden AKA Paradise AKA Heaven. If you choose to ignore this message it has no effect on the Muslims and most importantly it has no effect on Allah because Allah is not in need of any of his creatures. In actuality we are in need of Him.

Patriot,
In regards to your comment regarding Surah 9 Verse 5, it's inappropriate to take a verse out of its context. This verse relates to the verses before it which mention that there was an agreement made between Prophet Muhammad and his companions (Peace be upon them all)with the Quraish (the residents of the City of Mecca). The Quraish had forced Prophet Muhammad to immigrate to Medina after numerous years of oppressing and torturing him and his companions due to the fact that they didn't want to worship the numerous idols and they just wanted to worship Allah. Even after Prophet Muhammad and his companions (Peace Be Upon Them) had left peacefully the Quraish continued to attack them in Medina and persecuted the remaining followers in Mecca. After some time there was a truce declared between Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and the Quraish yet the Quraish continued to violate the treaty and tried to conspire with other tribes against Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). So a verse came down from Allah instructing the believers (the Muslims) to fight the Quraish and kill those who fight the Muslims in any month other than the four holy months in Islam. So that's the reason for that verse. There is a lesson to be learned in this for today.

Patriot,
Actually it's not an islamic practice to mutilate the vagina and clitoris so that's an incorrect statement for you to make. In reference to your comment regarding the seeking of more than one wife, I would like to say that it's something which is not an easy task however it's better than having a wife and having a mistress on the side (committing adultery). I am speaking using rationale in trying to understand the words of Allah (The One and only God) and Allah knows best. As you are aware men are very visual creatures and it is inherent in their nature to want to have more than one partner. This is not the norm for women however (just to answer you before you have a question). Women are for the most part looking for that one special someone and they are for the most part content with one partner. Allah who knows us best has given us permission to MARRY more than one wife under CONDITIONS. A few of these conditions are that the man must provide these women equally in all respects, meaning love, financial, spiritually, etc. It's a responsibility to take care of them and they will be held responsible in front of Allah (for any injustice they have caused to any of the wives. It's not simply a matter of having dinner with them and taking them to a hotel for sexual intercourse and then dropping them off somewhere as happens in this country by those who practice the heinous sin of ADULTERY. Your next comment in regards to your perceived understanding about men being superior to women and being in a separate room from men, here's my answer. Men and women are separated in mosques because the mosque is the House of Allah. In this house especially you are there to devote yourself in worship to Him. Therefore the woman has a section in the back of the mosque usually or in another room of the mosque so that there is no distraction while in a state of worshipping. As you are aware, the physical aspects of a woman are more tempting to men then vice versa. A woman does not care AS MUCH about the physical aspects of a man. If you disagree you can check out how many men wear tight pants and tight shirts and try to reveal the details of their physical appearance (answer: hardly any).

OH JESUS ABOVE ARTICLE TELLS IT ALL, THANK-YOU DAVID.
WOMAN IN THE CHURCH ARE NOT EVEN SEX OBJECTS BUT ON PAR WITH THE KITCHEN HELP! WAKE-UP AMERICANS MOST OF THESE RELIGIONS ARE RUN BY HOMOPHOBIC MONEYGRABBING PREACHERS. INSTEAD OF TAKING CARE OF THE POOR AND HOMELESS THEY WORRY ABOUT THE SEXLIFE OF GAYS AND LESBIANS, WHICH OFCOURSE IS MUCH SEXIER THAN PASSING OUT BLANKETS AND FOOD TO THE POOR IN OUR COUNTRY. JUST THINK OF IT HERE IN LOS ANGELES COUNTY WE HAVE 55000 HOMELESS PEOPLE THAT NEED HELP AND THOSE JESUS/GOD JERKS GO AROUND AND TELL THEM TO PRAY, OH JESUS WHAT A HOKUS/POKUS!! PLEEZEE GIVE ME A BREAK!

Interesting that the following story broke just after Mr. Colson, affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, wrote his post.

From the AP newswire:

"A group of Southern Baptists are divided over a seminary's decision to dismiss a female faculty member because officials there believe women should not be allowed to teach men in theology programs.

"Sheri Klouda received her doctorate from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and was hired for a tenure-track position in 2002 teaching Hebrew in the theology school. But in 2004, she was told she would not get tenure and should look for another job, a series of events confirmed by Van McClain, chairman of the Southwestern trustees.

"Southwestern is taking the 'traditional, confessional and biblical position' that women should not teach men in theology or biblical languages, McClain said. That position is based on a Biblical verse in which the Apostle Paul says, 'I permit no woman to teach or have authority over a man.'

"Klouda's hiring, McClain said, was a 'momentary lax of the parameters' of the seminary.

"Klouda said she was told her contract would not be renewed because she is a woman. She is now a professor at Taylor University in Indiana."

rest of story at: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4485266.html

This is a very selective perspective on the role of Christianity in Women's rights. Considering that the church in general does not allow a woman into high office and religion in the form of Christianity was the driving force behind the burning of thousands of "witches" throughout Europe, the role of Christianity in specifically suppressing Women is hard to deny.

That the teachings of Jesus seem to support woman’s rights implies that people of Christian faith over the last 2,000 years interpreted his words as meaning equal rights and chose to live life by those rules – which simply cannot be supported by history. Admittedly, the suffragette movement was led by Christian women, but the anti-suffragette movement at the time was led by good Christian men and the fact that Women did not have the right to vote was perpetuated for hundreds of years in Europe and the US by a predominantly Christian society. Almost all major western world political events were led by Christian people over the last 700 hundred years; it does not advance the argument to claim Christian association with one or two events when the preponderance of evidence points to women being treated as property in Christian society throughout all but the last 100 hundred years.

Christianity glorifies and sacralizes violence, suffering, and sacrifice. The Biblical world is one where women are little more than property and the Scriptures are full of violence perpetrated against women. Most of the few women who stand out as strong and powerful are used as examples of wickedness (i.e. Delilah, Jezebel, Herodias, Drusilla and Bernice). Most of the rest are important only in terms of the their relationships to the patriarchs or Jesus (i.e. Rahab, Magdalene).

For 2000 years, Christianity has continued to institutionally oppress women, denying them the place Jesus might have offered them (think Priscilla and Phebe), blaming them for the Fall, and even questioning whether women have souls at all. Women have made tremendous achievements in spite of Christianity, not because of it. The leaders of the suffragist and abolitionist movements may have indeed been Christian, but they had very different ideas than their male counterparts. Elizabeth Cady Stanton wrote about the fundamental sexism in Biblical Scripture that relegated women to an unacceptable position in society.

As a powerful, political institution, Christianity has always treated women as second class citizens and continues to do so today.

Mr. Colson has given us an excellent essay. I am also encouraged by the wonderful comments I see here by Christians.

To add to what R. HONG wrote, we have to realize that the Bible is not ultimately about us; it is about God. As we read it, we are learning about Him. When we study it and ponder it in our hearts, we grow closer to Him. To read it with a skeptical view, or to pull verses out of context, robs the reader of a complete picture of our Loving Creator.

The murder of Hypatia and the torture and murder of "witches" by Christians puts the lie to Mr. Colson's words. Christianity is as inimical to the liberty and happiness of women (to say nothing of men) as Islam.

Folks, let's face the superb Christian love towards women (nothing to brag about towards Moslems:)

Woman must cover her head, because she is not the image of god. (Ambrosius, important Church Father 339-397)

Woman is an inferior being, which has not been created by god according to his image. It corresponds to the natural order that woman serve men. (Augustinus, 354-430, one of the most important Church Teachers)

Woman is a misconception of nature ... with her humidity surplus and her low temperature physically and spiritually a low-grade, sort of mutilated, failed man. The full realization of the human species is only the man. (St. Thomas Aquinus, leading Church Father, 1225-1274).

If you see a woman, think it is the devil! She is a sort of hell. (Pope Pius II, 1405-1464)

The greatest honor of a woman is that a man is born through her.
If the woman is not willing get the maid. (Martin Luther, 1483−1546, Founder of the protestant Church.)

A woman should listen silently and submit herself totally. I do not allow a woman to teach and to put herself above a man. Adam was created first, then Eva. (Pope John Paul, 1988)

That is, and always has been, the status quo in Christianity and everywhere else. I believe in evolution not so much because of where we came from in the past, but with a glimpse of hope where we might go on the distant future.

oh jesus jesica how stupid can one get!! oh pleezeee! who cares what the catholic church thinks about contraceptives/condoms you know when you are a young man and you have about 9 inches sticking out, you are gonna put it into someone and oh jesus im guilty i know but at least i protected my partner and moiself jesicadear. so now pleezee go and get a life and forget all that church hokus pokus its a scam! stick a condom in your purse so you will be ready next time some hunk makes a pass at you and enjoy it you are not gonna be any younger than you are at this moment!
lets just hope that all those priest that raped the little girls and boys did the same and used condoms!
chuckyboi i sure hope you pass out condoms to the prisoners before you give them all that jesus/god hokus pokus!

TKH lol

Yall go on ahead without me. What with all the girly men fighting for leadership in the kingdom of Devil I dobt there's room left in hell for me anyhow. According to the latest joke Mr Bush couldn't get into hell until he traded places in the Clinton-Lewinsky thing after declining the Ford "eternal stumble" punishment.

Have you seen http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul yet? Time's a wasting. Now present me and the other 42 million plus of us Americans with some evidence, at least say it isn't so, that God and not Devil is the supernatural being that helped Moses lead the Israelites and in turn the three great faits to hell.

BGONE - Hand all your problems over to God and He will help you. If you seek God sincerely, He will reach out to you with many graces. Analogy: if a cat hisses and claws, no one will pick up that cat. But, if that cat calms down and purrs signalling welcome, then one will reach down and pick up and care for that cat as if it was a dear one. Calm down and seek the real truth and knowledge about God. He loves you very much, but you need to calm down and seek Him.

Mr. Colson,
Very well done and professional. Your commentary is done in the spirit of a true and selfless theologian who has faith-seeking-understanding and who provides this clarity to his students for the sake of truth and their salvation. I am grateful to you. Please work with your fellow panelists and shed light where they are blind.

----he Catholic Church does not condone artificial contraceptives----

So they let people die of AIDS (due to fear of damnation put into their minds by your backwards religion) because they dare to react to the natural sex drive that every human has?
A GOD GIVEN sex drive at that!!

Morals from that stinking edifice of sexual corruption The Catholic Church!? I think not!
A moral edifice that has already forked out over $85 million because of mass child rape abuse cases by its GOD CHOSEN Priests!

Only the existence of fanatical Islamists make you Catholics look even remotely moral!

---and artificially suppressing this gift just for the means of lustful pleasure is immoral.---

REALLY!?

So why did your God create the orgasm?

Why did you God create the clitorus? Which serves no reproductive purpose at all.

WHY DID GOD GIVE US A CONSTANT SEX DRIVE?
Not a 'breeding cycle' sex drive at certain times of the year like most animals...BUT A CONSTANT SEX DRIVE!

Another religious nut who screams what is supposed to be God's will while ignoring the basic bilogical facts of our being! Biological facts your supposed God created!

Posted on January 20, 2007 23:20

Anonymous:
God Bless you Mr. Colson. There is nothing I can add to your work, allow me to rephrase: Jesus loves the work of God. Jesus loves women. Jesus can admire a flower without killing it.

Posted January 20, 2007 11:34 PM

Hi Anonymous,
I thought your rephrasing was very insightful. But I thought I should mention one thing that I believe may confuse others. I believe Mr. Colson would agree with me when I say that it is important to know that Jesus was also God, or Jesus=God.

Saying this does not change or lessen your rephrasing at all. It just reminds us to view Jesus as God, humbling himself. Then we could really see the impact of Jesus talking to the woman at the well. It wasn't merely a "holy man" showing extraordinary love and teaching. It was God himself dialoguing with the woman. If God humbled himself to be man, and then broke the social norms by speaking with the woman, I think it shows that there was something wrong with the social norm, rather than something wrong with God.

Ralph:
MEN WROTE THE BIBLE. SO WHO DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD SAY IS IN CHARGE? THEY EVEN REFER TO GOD AS "HE". IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO KNOW WHO WOULD BE IN CHARGE IF WOMEN HAD WRITTEN THE BIBLE!
IF MARY CAME BACK TODAY SHE COULD NOT EVEN GET A JOB AS A PRIEST IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! OUR GOOD CHRISTIAN FOUNDING FATHERS DID NOT PERMIT WOMEN TO VOTE. THESE SAINTLY FOLKS HELD OTHER HUMANS IN THE BONDGE OF SLAVERY. SO MUCH FOR A PILE OF DOUBLE STANDARDS THROUGHOUT THE HISTORY OF RELIGION.

Posted January 20, 2007 10:39 PM

Hi Ralph,
I read your post and understand your statement. It made me ask a different question: "What would God say about Ralph's statement?"

This is just a thought, but I thought that perhaps God would shake is head and say, "Must you think everything is about you? Must even my identity be about you? Is it more important whether I am addressed as He/Him rather than She/Her? I am God, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, and eternal. My nature is far removed from that of mankind. Yet you put your focus on whether I am a He or a She. You argue whether the church is right or wrong in addressing me so. If it concerns you so much, do not address me as He/Him or She/Her but as God, as Lord. Then perhaps you can stop debating amongst yourselves on what to call me and begin being my church and worshiping me and obeying my commands."

This is not to put what you wrote down Ralph. This was what I thought God would say to all of us, all mankind. I think it is important to a degree that we ask and learn what impact having men lead the church had in it's formation and organization. But it's not as important as knowing God as Lord and obeying him.

And correct me if I'm wrong but from what you wrote, it seemed to me that perhaps, just possibily, you grew up in a Catholic family as a child and you've read "Davinci Code" recently and found it very interesting. I too found the novel interesting but I've also been cautious to keep from believing the "interesting" from the "true".

I once heard a quote that profoundly changed my view on Christianity. It went something like: New does not mean better. Because that's how we generally think, we often believe that the latest find or theory is the best and most accurate. But perhaps the fact that the Bible has been passed down for so long and with such accuracy (albeit some human error) was not because of the skill of men but the will of God.

But that's just my thought.

God Bless you Mr. Colson. There is nothing I can add to your work, allow me to rephrase: Jesus loves the work of God. Jesus loves women. Jesus can admire a flower without killing it.

I noticed that many of the entries spoke on why Christianity/general religion/Islam promotes or goes against 'oppression of women'. I was enlightened by the different points of views.

After reading some of the postings, I thought to myself that there may be different methods of oppressing women which are based on cultural/religious factors, but there must be an underlying reason that is universal.

This led me to hypothesize that perhaps the reason 'oppression of women' or 'oppression of anyone' exists is because mankind is sinful (having a naturally evil state) and that we are unequal in power.

I am not knowledgeable of other religions/philosophies but from a Christian perspective, this is biblical. Since the fall of mankind by the fall of Adam and Eve, mankind is naturally sinful/evil from birth (perhaps even prior to birth, but that's another theological subject). One example of this sinfulness, exhibited as early as adolescence, is self-centeredness. Young children will only be concerned with their desires. Some may say that they only need to be taught manners (and such) but all we really teach with manners are that social norms are required to function well in a society. The self-centered desires that were naturally displayed in young children are still there and will present itself in other ways as we age, perhaps even in socially accepted ways (e.g. desiring to earn a large salary for greed or the prestige). This nature is present in all cultures of mankind. The only difference culture/general religion affects this sinfulness is in the social norms that are taught for that group.

As for the power aspect, because we are not all equal in characteristics, our sinful nature will lead us to show our strengths and make others weaker. Even in the most primitive society, the male will generally be physically stronger than the female. Since the basic functions of society all feature physical labor/skills, males would be deemed superior. But this superiority alone should not be the reason for oppression. The sinfulness of mankind is the reason why men would want to put women down. The methods used to oppress women may be different culturally/religiously, but the reason men oppress women could be blamed on the sinfulness of mankind and the physical superiority of man.

Now, none of what I've written could be true. This just came into my mind as I read the other entries. And to clarify, I've purposely wrote mankind because women are just as sinful as men in their nature. If we are to limit the amount of oppression, laws can help reveal mankind's sinfulness and provide limitations to keep our evil nature from running rampant in society. But I believe it is impossible to be rid of oppression or any other evil/sinfulness in the world we live in. I believe Jesus is the only one who can provide a society free of sin and that place is commonly known as heaven.

Thanks for reading this long entry.

MEN WROTE THE BIBLE. SO WHO DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD SAY IS IN CHARGE? THEY EVEN REFER TO GOD AS "HE". IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO KNOW WHO WOULD BE IN CHARGE IF WOMEN HAD WRITTEN THE BIBLE!
IF MARY CAME BACK TODAY SHE COULD NOT EVEN GET A JOB AS A PRIEST IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! OUR GOOD CHRISTIAN FOUNDING FATHERS DID NOT PERMIT WOMEN TO VOTE. THESE SAINTLY FOLKS HELD OTHER HUMANS IN THE BONDGE OF SLAVERY. SO MUCH FOR A PILE OF DOUBLE STANDARDS THROUGHOUT THE HISTORY OF RELIGION.

I applaud your interesting compilation of women's historical roles in the Christian church, and I'm sure there are 10 times as many who could have been listed. However, I do take issue with your statement that the Bible places a high value on women. Perhaps you meant to say the Gospels/Jesus placed a high value on women. With that I would agree.

I personally think men treat women so unreasonably because of fear of their power over them. Perhaps Jesus didn't feel threatened by women.

Baptists divided over female professors teaching men

Associated Press

DALLAS — A group of Southern Baptists are divided over a seminary's decision to dismiss a female faculty member because officials there believe women should not be allowed to teach men in theology programs.

Sheri Klouda received her doctorate from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and was hired for a tenure-track position in 2002 teaching Hebrew in the theology school. But in 2004, she was told she would not get tenure and should look for another job, a series of events confirmed by Van McClain, chairman of the Southwestern trustees.

Southwestern is taking the "traditional, confessional and biblical position" that women should not teach men in theology or biblical languages, McClain said. That position is based on a Biblical verse in which the Apostle Paul says, "I permit no woman to teach or have authority over a man."

oh jesus jesica how stupid can one get!! oh pleezeee! who cares what the catholic church thinks about contraceptives/condoms you know when you are a young man and you have about 9 inches sticking out, you are gonna put it into someone and oh jesus im guilty i know but at least i protected my partner and moiself jesicadear. so now pleezee go and get a life and forget all that church hokus pokus its a scam! stick a condom in your purse so you will be ready next time some hunk makes a pass at you and enjoy it you are not gonna be any younger than you are at this moment!
lets just hope that all those priest that raped the little girls and boys did the same and used condoms!

Geez Jesica. Now I have to go an make a decision. Does the Catholic church act with reason. That leads to more. What is the reason? Which leads to more. Who wins and who loses? That leads to more. What is won and what is lost? Why not forget the whole thing? There is no reason either in or for the Catholic church beyond the operators gains and everyone else's losses.

oops! I ment the reason the Catholic Church does not condone artificial contraceptives.

The Catholic Church does not condone artificial contraceptives is because human sexuality is a gift from God for procreation and artificially suppressing this gift just for the means of lustful pleasure is immoral.

'prophet said the world is under the feet of your mother'.

But that's not all concerning 'treatment of women in Islam'. How about a pedophile 'prophet'who fckd the child Aisha and thát with permission of 'Allah ', who álso allows 'four women for the one muslim'(provided he can afford them (= buy them!) and in an Islam where child-marriages are allowed, and female circumcision was never specifically forbidden (3 million muslim girls are yearly sexually maimed!). I would never call that 'just and equal treatment of women in Islam'; nór having to 'cover your head' out of 'decency' considering the 'prophet's behaviour.

But the main and biggest difference between Jesus-Christ and Muhammed can be read in the Parable (is correct english?) Adultress Woman wherein Jesus is confronted by a number of men who want to test Him saying:
'what would you do? This woman is an adultress and according to Jewish laws ought to be stoned [to death].
Jesus said to the men: 'He who is without sin may throw the first stone'.
One by one the men went away.
To the adultress woman Jesus said: 'Go home and sin no more'.

Muhammed would have had her stoned to death!

After Jesus-Christ the Reformer, Socialist and Great Humanist, had reformed certain archaic Jewish laws, Muhammed (600 years later!) reverted to the cruel punishments of the O.T. - through plagerisme in the 'Quran'

Then there is the extraordinary relationship of Jesus with Mary-Magdalene who he trusted above all his apostles, and whose intellect Jesus highly esteemed.

OH JESUS OFCOURSE NO ONE IS ABSOLUTELY EMOTIONALLY STABLE HOW CAN CHUCKYBOI BE WHEN IN JAIL THERE IS ALWAYS A POSSIBILITY THAT SOMEONE CAN STICK ABOUT 9 INCHES INTO YOU? AND SCREAMING FOR THE LORD WONT DO SHE MAY BE OCCUPIED ELESEWHERE LIKE HELPING THE 55000 HOMELESS WE HAVE IN LOS ANGELES COUNTY!! NO KIDDING! DO WE HAVE A GREAT COUNTRY OR NOT??

Willem:

There are categories of people:

1) crooks and liars
2) emotionally disturbed
3) ignorant
4) everyone

There's a little larceny in everyone. No one is absolutely emotionally stable. All are lacking in knowledge, where did all this come from for example. Therefore we are all included in the set, everyone. Some are predominately in the top 3, at the head of the class so to speak.

Nice Mr Colson is clearly a member of category 1. His views and opinions on how women have fared and presently fare in the church are most welcome and sure to be enlightened and enlightening.

oh jesus chuckyboi all that jesus/god stuff is hokus pukus BUT if i was in jail i would be on my knees also in 10 min flat! and i dont mean for sex chuckyboi!
hey nothing better to do ,you know all that redemption bs and working out on your muscles keeps you occupied while wondering why you killed or stole from someone.
chuckyboi you must know by now that the gop and churches are run by homophobic moneygrabbing politicians/ministers/preachers, oh jesus they even rate below used cardealers! isnt this a wonderfull country when ex-whitehouse fellons can continue to spread more bs. chuckyboi religion is the problem and NOT the answer!

To the Christians who argue above that we should judge their religion by the example of Jesus instead of by the behavior of Christians:

That would seem to give you a free pass to do whatever you want, and to be honest, your record over the last 1500 years or so has not been so good. Some of the words in 1 Timothy have suppressed the dreams of lots of people.

Off topic, but it still amazes me that convicted felon Charles Colson is still a public figure. I guess it shows the "power of redemption", at least if you are a right wing zealot.

I was brought up as a Christian but my own personal experience has taught me that our own leaders like Desmond Tutu don't necessarily always practice what they preach. Many Christians are familiar with the prophesy: "Let the little children come to me, for they are innocent." Desmond Tutu is well known for fighting for the rights of women and children, that is why he is at the centre stage of this discussion. But here is the story:

Trevor Tutu, Desmond Tutu's son,has an adorable seven-year old son from a woman that he was living with at the time she became pregnant in 1999. Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Trevor’s father - the Nobel Peace Prize winner and Human Rights activist - was aware of the relationship and so were his mother and his sisters. They had initially embraced the relationship and welcomed the news about her pregnancy. However, the expectant mother terminated the relationship when she found out that Trevor Tutu was a smart con man who thrived on exploiting, financially and emotionally, well- situated women.

She has been raising her son all by herself, without any emotional, moral or financial support from Trevor Tutu or any members of his family. The boy’s maternal grandfather passed away in 2004. He is aware of the existence of his paternal grandfather and has expressed, on several occasions, an interest in talking to his dad and grandfather. Archbishop Desmond Tutu claims that he has such a hectic schedule and is so busy travelling that he cannot find time to have a brief telephone conversation with his grandchild. He saw his seven-year old grandson only once, when he was two years old and no one from the Tutu family has ever spoken to him. The child can only relate to his grandfather from what he sees on TV and the photos taken at the time he met his grandparents in 2002.

Despite the fact that Archbishop Desmond Tutu is aware of his grandson’s existence, he has chosen to turn his back on him. His mother believes that because her son was born out of wedlock and she is not a South African, the honourable Archbishop Desmond Tutu views the child as illegitimate and in order to preserve his public image, he has decided to disown his own grandson. The effort not to be associated with this grandson is so entrenched within the Tutu family that even today, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, when asked about his grandchildren, makes no mention of the existence of his “controversial” grandson. He does not know or seem to care about where this grandson lives, regardless of the fact that Tutu is the only living grandfather that his grandson has. All attempts to contact Trevor Tutu have been futile and the only person who can communicate with him is Archbishop Tutu. Both Tutus seem intent on disavowing any connection with this little boy.

Regardless of the circumstances surrounding this child’s birth, this little boy is still entitled to human and children's rights. It is sad that his grandfather, Desmond Tutu, travels all over the world advocating for children and women's rights, when within his own family he has a grandchild he would rather pretend does not exist.

Because of the circumstances surrounding the child, the mother has since left South Africa to live with her son in North America. Her son is now attending school there and the schools have once a year the black history month. He hears how people talk about his grand father and when he proudly tells his teachers and school mates about his origin, the first thing that they ask him is whether he is in touch with him. This is normal, because most kids are constantly in touch with their grandparents. The mother has had to live a life of lies, coming up with explanations as to why he cannot communicate with his own father and paternal grandparents, when he sees him all the time on TV preaching about children’s rights.

Now you tell me about forgiveness, love, children & women's rights and all that in the name of christianity. Tutu has failed on all fronts. What is that? A demonstration of christianity? It's high time we realise that some of our role models are not what they appear to be.

Hence my opinion that there are christians and christians and it all depends on who is practicing christianity. Some will protect women and others will not. Or does it depend on nationality, race, creed, social status or colour?

Wow - you've come a long way, baby, when prominent jews and christians are fighting over who's more pro-woman!

From my blog, http://abroch.wordpress.com.

Charles “Chuck” Colson via an article in the Washington Post/Newsweek says Christianity is the greatest defender of women’s rights– Wrong, dead wrong.

Judaism has been a champion of women’s rights from the start, where does one even begin about the importance of the women in the Jewish faith?

But first, to Mr. Colson’s argument in the Post.

Colson argues that Jesus being a radical in his day respected and talked to women in public. “To the surprise of his disciples, Jesus engages a woman at the well in discussion, doubly shocking in that time, given that she was both a woman and a Samaritan, a group of people with whom the Jews did not typically associate.”

He says this thinking set up the foundation for Christianity’s defense for women.

Jews have been talking to women a lot longer since then. The Talmud states that God told Moses to first “speak to the daughters of Israel” before addressing the men and to ask them whether they wished to receive the Torah.

Why did God tell Moses to speak to the women first? “Because the way of men is to follow the opinion of women.”

Colson mentions several women champions in the Christian bible. But let us not forget Sarah. Sarah, wife to Abraham, became a co-partner in spreading God’s word.

There’s more though. Christianity teaches that God is man. In Judaism we say God has no physical form and has characteristics that are both male and female. Technically we can call God a “He” or “She” and be correct.

In Hebrew, the word Lord is Adonay and has a female ending. When we use this term we refer to God the mother. God in Hebrew is Elohim, a masculine ending– God the father.

Why would a religion that promotes a God as a He and She not be a champion of women’s rights?

There is an old Jewish proverb: “Without woman, man is only half a man, incomplete.” Eve’s destiny was to be “Ezer K’negdo.” In Hebrew, opposite him (Adam). Most Christian bibles to this day still translate that as helpmate to him. That does not sound like a religion that champions women’s rights.

I once heard a Rabbi point this out to me. The Hebrew word for kindness is Rachamim. The root rechem means “womb.” In English the root for womb is hyster and places it in words such as hysteria and hysterical… The Hebrew name for God has a feminine ending, God Herself often chooses to be more like a woman.

The Talmud concludes, “The Holy One, blessed be He, endowed women with more insight and intuitive intelligence than men.”

We see this tradition play out in modern times. From the Union for Reform Judaism, “Reform Jews are committed to the absolute equality of women in all areas of Jewish life. We were the first movement to ordain women rabbis, invest women cantors, and elect women presidents of our synagogues.”

Mr. Colson I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you and say Judaism, not Christianity, is the greatest defender of women’s rights.

All I have to say is that Jesus was progressive which, if we took his example, we too would be more progressive. We need to realize, life is fluid and just as Jesus, we must look at life the same way. Men and Women are equal, PERIOD. Our society has progressed to the point where physicial strength is not an issue anymore, and our wits are equal. Why is there still the differencial treatment?

I believe in God, and I believe Jesus was probably the most enlightened being that ever stepped foot on this planet.

The Bible, however, in my opinion is a MAN-made text (notice that there were no female writers included). It took Christians over 300 years to decide what would go in or stay out of the Bible. If it had been divine, I'm sure God would have taken much less time to avoid any confusion.

If you think about it, most Christians MUST believe that the Bible is divinely inspired - because then there is no confusion, doubt, ambiguity, or uncertainty. They would very literally be lost without it. It's their Life Instruction manual, and that's why they're always quoting it. Imagine how much clearer life is when you have such a Book of Life that's been authored by God. And in a world as messy as ours, when life can be so very difficult, meaningless, and full of pain and suffering, "Lord knows" we could use a savior or 2, plus a guidebook. This is why most born-again Christians were born again in distressing periods of their life, when the need for salvation and direction is greatest.

Unfortunately, many Christians then take this salvation and believe it is appropriate for everybody, an attitude which can be viewed as offensive and condescending. But the true spirit of God & Jesus = the spirit of love and goodness. They are not so small as to be confined to religions, ministers, churches, books, or fellow believers. In my opinion, many nonchristian individuals are "holier" or "higher evolved" than Christians. The simple fact that it took our own historically Christian country about 100 years to officially abolish slavery, and about 150 years to let women vote, should be evidence enough that Christianity does NOT have a monopoly on goodness, love, justice, or human rights.

Hey Slave O' Christ -

More Biblical quotes, please. They really impress me.

No original thoughts, though - that could be scary.

didn't have a chance ot read all posts, but has anyone mentioned Galatians 3:28?

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

This sheds interesting light on the discussion...

To Essence (and addressing Mr. Colson's 'submission' comments):

If you and your wife have found your lives work better with you as the boss then that's fine for you. But your personal experiences don't make a universal rule. Your marriage is not my marriage or anyone else's marriage. The fact that you needed your wife to submit to you does not mean people in general are "wired" like you are. My wife and I function perfectly well together because we love one another, value each other's opinions, and know how to compromise.

You asked, "Can you name me a country on the face of this earth with two leaders?"

I ask, "Would you prefer to live in a dictatorship instead of a democracy?" Maybe you would, but I sure as hell wouldn't.

--------------

Wayne, you said:

"Bash the Christians all you want, but I challenge anyone to suggest a better example to follow than Christ's."

Every person who has ever lived is better than Christ, including the world's most infamous dictators and mass murderers.

Jesus Christ, if you believe many Christians, has sent billions of people to eternal torture. For instance, according to born-again Christians, all the Jews who were brutally and horribly murdered in the Holocaust are now being brutally and horribly tortured for eternity in Christ's hell, for the 'crime' of not prostrating themselves before him. Eternal torture is a crime that is infinitely worse than murder, so Christ has committed billions of crimes infinitely worse than every person who has ever lived combined.

Thus Christ is the most evil entity in existence, if he is actually real. Fortunately for all of us, he's just a obscene fantasy.

"Christianity becomes one of the greatest single defenders of women’s rights"

Maybe in an alternate universe -- not the one in which I live.

Slave, you wrote: "Jesus: Whoever hates me hates my Father also."

Did you just love Jesus to death on the cross or was there hate involved? Explain that to Father God. Good luck.

Slave, prove I don't believe in God.

I know the God you claim to believe in is actually Lucifer the biggest Devil of them all. I believe you have sold your soul and either are collecting and spending Devil's money, a minister or a sucker paying Devils fee to His ministers for leading you to hell.

The Bible proves Moses sold his soul to Devil. Lucky for you the Bible is a hoax. Those being fooled, conned by ministers may not think it's so lucky once they find out.

Did you see the picture of what's happening to Hitler in the next life? Take warning all who think there is a supernatural being to save them from those they harm. Good luck slave. Hum, slave, sounds like you've already had a run of really bad luck.

You don't believe in GOD. you hate him because you can't stand his words.

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.
Matt.24.10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.
Mark.13.13 And you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

John.7.7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.
John.12.25 Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

Jesus : Whoever hates me hates my Father also.

Slave:

What a yoyo you are.

I believe in God. I believe there is more life after this life. I don't believe your roadblock between this life and the next. I do not believe God is anymore present in the next world than this world.

Now let's see some evidence your roadblock on the nebol bridge is anything more than J-hawking, charging folks for right of passage across a toll free bridge.

That's an unlawful act. Women should not get involved and they should keep their children away from it like they try to keep them away from other addictive and life ruining things like drugs and alcohol. It's a very old con scam based upon a lot of hoaxes that were culled, picked over and almagamated into one collossal one, the Bible, oh, bout 320 CE by a God named Constantine the great, (a great liar, cheat, thief, doulbe crosser, and above all else hoaxer).

What the Bible is has been proved, http://www.hoax-buster.org and you don't even need to be literate there are so many pictures.

"If Jesus really allowed himself to be crucified to save you there's just one way to find out isn't there? I'll bet you don't want to do that test of God's great love either. All must wait for confirmation until after we're dead."

They are called Martyrs. tell me this. Saul(St.Paul) who was a Pharisee hated Christians. Luke writes about him consenting to Stephen's Death. but behold, he turns into a Christian by who? Jesus appears to him saying "you will suffer for my name".
St.Paul was beheaded & St.Peter crucified in Rome, all the other Apostles were killed too, One was boiled in hot wax.

Jesus said they will be persecuted and killed and Lord Behold, they all were.

You should read http://www.padrepio.catholicwebservices.com/ENGLISH/Miracles.htm

but tell me, The Apostles weren't the only one that saw him after the Ressurection, all of his believers saw him, thats how they became Jewish Christians. Paul even says he had numerous testimonys of it. and if Jesus didn't Ressurect, why would the Apostles travel to Greece,Rome,Egypt,India and etc?

Willowwolfe, Did Jesus made woman out of Disciples? No. its the tradition.