A commonly held Mormon opinion on gays:

"If there's anything I can't stand, it's weird people."

Mark

The National Anthem, America the Beautiful, or God Bless America are songs. Works of literature, but not works of law. Many of the founders were religious, but they carefully put together a secular state. They were also not, in any way uniform in their beliefs. This diversity made them very aware of the need to keep apart their individual beliefs and the needs of the nation the were working to found. That strategy was a staggering success.

Jefferson was, in fact, not religious as you describe it. He was a Deist, not following the idea of a personal god, but an impersonal "providence" sort of force. He even edited the Bible, deleting all of the Old Testament, (violent, jingoistic, and immoral) and much of the New, (unscientific, too little evidence to support miraculous claims) and wound up with a tome of under 100 pages. Just Google Mr. Jefferson's Bible. Washington has been described as more a dutiful husband than a dutiful Christian, accompanying his wife to services, but quietly stepping out to avoid the Communion ritual. I might suggest you do a bit more historical research, yourself. I highly recommend www.historynews.com., a site put together by history educators.

As to majority rule, the Constitution does not empower the tyranny of the majority. The majority can't strip a minority of a basic right that they hold for themselves. However, in the short term majority groups have been able to legally oppress many minority groups, both currently in the Prop. 8 Case in California, and in the past, as shown by the Jim Crow laws, neighborhood covenants disallowing home sales to black or Jewish people, the state of Illinois attacking Mormon settlers (with the blessing of the governor), the laws restricting Asian property ownership some western states had in the past, the laws various states had against interracial marriage and so on. The list of oppressive acts perpetrated by a majority against some minority is both long and depressing. We have not always lived up to our Constitution. We generally have to be dragged to justice.

The majority of folks in every case supported these unjust laws. They made the majority more comfortable. People in general don't like to be confronted with folks or ideas that they are unfamiliar with. We prefer to keep things and people that make us uneasy at a distance, discretely hidden away. Eventually, however, the Constitution was triumphant. The majority was not allowed to oppress minorities. The rule of law will win in the end. It almost always does. It just will take time. A bit more time than it should, because many people just can't give up power over others. And I will never choose to "get over" injustice, thank you all the same.

I have always been a seeker of the facts. I find they lead to truth, I recommend the strategy.

Joseph Smith experimented with human sexuality against the wishes of his wife and against the customs of his day. If he were alive today, he would probably approve of gay marriage, and would probably have had several husbands.

Mwpalmer

What you have said is not true. Whatismore, your attitude is pretentious, haughty, and snobby. What gives you the right to assume superiority over anybody? If you say Jesus, then I know, once again, you are lying.

fr mwpalmer:

>...There is only one question. Who do you believe?...

Definitely not ANYONE who claims to be able to "cure" being gay, as being gay is NOT an illness.

AreYouSaying

If you continue to post comments that I think are utterly ridiculous, am I justified to conclude that you are a lavender-haired circus clown? No! I don't know you. Neither do I know everything that was happening at BYU in the '70s. And I suspect that you don't either. To confirm or deny a questionable allegation based on erroneous suppositions would be silliness. What I do know is that your characterizations of the church (assuming that is what you mean by “chruch”) are completely inconsistent with my own experience. So I am quite confident in concluding that what you say about the church is mostly nonsense.

I do agree that the church has no authority over you. So what are you getting so worked up about? Could it have something to do with church members exercising their political rights by working to protect the traditional family model that we believe is essential to a healthy society?

Check out Patent Number 6,050,959
Apparatus and Method for Measuring Sexual Arousal
Dr. Robert Card, former BYU professor and later the "doctor" Mormon Bishops referred their gay members t to "cure" homosexuality, invented this to determine sexual arousal of an electroshock "patient" when shown homosexual pornography.

So mwpalmer, volkemare, and Brother Otterson do not deny their church tortured gays with electroshock therapy to cure them.

Calling themselves "The Chruch of Jesus Christ" is an abomination.

mwpalmer:

Are you officially denying on behalf of your Church that they have used or referred members to electroshock "therapy" to cure homosexuality?

If this is a "vicious lie" then then it can be easily and honestly denied. Simply calling others liars without addressing the allegation is tantamount to pleading guilty.

Calling others liars in your righteous might may make you feel better but it does not make the issue go away. Contrary to what you believe, the pontifications of your church and its Elders has no credibility with or authority over me or others.

It's remarkable that those who accuse others of hate do it with such rage. It causes me to wonder about the motivations of the accusers. Which way does the hate really go?

The flurry of contemptuous words here against Volkmare are but worthless noise. Say what you will, it changes the truth not at all. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is in reality the church of Jesus Christ, God's only Begotten Son. He established it by the hand of his servant Joseph Smith, just as he proclaimed and millions attest.

Ultimately, the only thing anyone can do is believe it, or not. It's up to you. Wallow in pits of dark reason, believe and promulgate vicious lies, accuse away, it is indeed your sacred right. In the end it is all quite simple. There is only one question. Who do you believe?

Another Mark.

Interviewer: Had you seen gay pornography before that?

Rocky: No, I was 15! I was only 15 years old. I mean I'd seen like a Playboy before, but I'd never seen sex before at all. They were going to show me this gay pornography and using the I.V. they would inject a drug into me during the gay pornography to make me start vomiting. Then they would switch the pornography over to heterosexual sex and inject a euphoric drug into me to get me to associate euphoria with heterosexuality. I look back on that and think that I would have taken the electric-shock therapy had I known about it since I'm extremely phobic around vomiting.

I was supposed to come back the next day for treatment, but I just didn't show up. I called in sick and put them off. They finally said that I had to come down and tell them what was going on. I told them I couldn't do it, and they gave me a "shame" letter which I had to hand carry back and give to my stake president telling him that I had refused to go through with the Lord's program for my cure.

Elder Volkmare,

Google "Mormon gay electroshock"

I suppose all these people are lying, too.
Right?

areyousaying
tellint lies will get you nowhere.
repeating them does not make them true
Posted by: volkmare
----------------------------------
You learned well your Church's official non-response to the gay electroshock issue.

Are you officially denying this happened on behalf of the Church?

Why don't we hear Brother Otterson denying it? After all, that's his job, not yours.

Why do we call our Republic a democracy? What quality does it have, beyond representative government that we call it democracy?

It is the equality of rights of all people, which are inherent, and due to all people, and cannnot be simply voted away by a majority.

It is arrogant, pretentious, and snobby for a person to set himself and his people up above other people, to be inherently superior.

Any religion, ANY RELIGION that leads down this false path, is by its very nature and by definition, FALSE. Any references to God or characterizations of God with this frame of false doctrines, is also therefore false. Insisting on the truth of false beliefs does no make them true.

Perhaps the Mormons should cast off their false beliefs and seek the truth.

Volkmare

The issue of equality of rights for gay people is no more settled now then the issue of slavery was settled before the Civil War.

If it your intention, to fight a war to settle it, then you will have a war, and then it will be settled.

"The people of California shot it down. We are not the only ones who believe in and follow God."

OK.

"Wither you like it or not, this nation was founded on a belief in god.”

"If you don’t believe that, then you don’t know your history. Just read the verses of the national anthem, or America the beautiful, or God bless America."

Compelling arguments all.

I can just picture Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, etc., sitting around singing America the Beautiful and God Bless America.

After they recited the Pledge of Allegiance, of course.

"Then study Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington. You’ll find them to be very religious men, and that faith influenced the constitution."

They were many things, including people of their time: the eighteenth century.

We are people of the twentieth and twenty-first century.

It doesn't make sense for us to think with eighteenth century mentalities and beliefs.

"The majority rules, and you lost."

Ouch.

"Get over it."

Double ouch.

"Mark
Always seek the truth."

Not until you get your homework done first.

fr volkmare:

>...Then study Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington. You’ll find them to be very religious men, and that faith influenced the constitution....

Not true. Jefferson was a deist, NOT a Christian.

>...The majority rules, and you lost.
Get over it.

Prop HATE will sooner or later be overturned. Grow UP. Realize that all glbt's want AND DESERVE are EQUAL (not "special" as the rr is forever bleating) rights under the law.

Get over it.

gimpi

The people of California shot it down. We are not the only ones who believe in and follow God.

Wither you like it or not, this nation was founded on a belief in god.

If you don’t believe that, then you don’t know your history. Just read the verses of the national anthem, or America the beautiful, or God bless America.

Then study Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington. You’ll find them to be very religious men, and that faith influenced the constitution.

The majority rules, and you lost.

Get over it.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

daniel

"...outside of the little kingdom of Utah, within modern American society, this treachary will not be allowed to stand."

The "little kingdom" is world wide and around 13 million members.

the "treachary" is yours, not ours.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

"In studying the bible, you will find that God’s plan is centered on the family, and the center of the family is the marriage of a man and a woman."
Posted by volksmare (Mark)

Mark, that may be biblical, it may be what you believe with all your heart, but that belief is irrelevant as regards the law of the land in the USA.

There is only one reason to invoke force of law to control a person's behavior in a free society, and that is to prevent them from harming someone else. Infringing on someone else's freedom of action by force of law should only be undertaken when it rises to that very high standard.

The arguments regarding disallowing gay marriage don't rise to clear that bar. In the end, they always seem to come down to a belief that homosexuality is immoral. That belief, no matter how strong, how high-minded, how founded in tradition or liturgy, does not give any faith group the right to control someone else's behavior.

The fact that someone's way of life makes you uncomfortable is not sufficient reason to outlaw it. Freedom, as many have pointed out, is not free. Sometimes it's cost is in blood or treasure, and sometimes it just comes down to learning to live with something that you don't like or that you disagree with.

areyousaying

tellint lies will get you nowhere.
repeating them does not make them true

Mark
Always seek the truth.

Year of the Priest?

Like this one?

NEW HAVEN, Conn. -- A Roman Catholic priest in Connecticut was charged Tuesday with stealing $1.3 million in church money over seven years to use for male escorts, expensive clothing and luxury hotels and restaurants.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/06/AR2010070601918.html?hpid=moreheadlines

"Year of the Priest"?

Like this one?

In a blog world of so much hate, it's good to see some positive remarks by the author.

I do not see anything wrong with being Mormon as long as they keep it to themselves and stop flaunting it in everyone's faces. We don't have to be constantly reminded of their weird ideas, do we?

Did an angel really appear to Joseph Smith and show him where the golden plates were located and then give some special stones to enable him to translate the unknown language inscibed on the plates into English and then took the evidence, the golden plates, back to Heaven thus causing the evidence to disappear? I don't think so. Someone seeking the truth, and haranging others to do likewise, should dispense with this story which is obviously untrue.

And was Joseph Smith murdered by an an angry mob, purely for religious reasons? Or was he murdered in response to his destruction of a local printing press, in his attempt to seize local political power through illegal means? Which is true, the Mormon version, or the REAL version? Who is seeking the truth and who is spreading falsehoods? Are all the non-Mormon historians of the world spreading falsehoods about Mormons, or are Mormons seeking to impose their fasle beliefs on everybody else?

Which is the truth? which do Mormons believe? Can a person seeking the truth be a Mormon? Or is a Mormon required to cast the truth aside in order to be a Mormon?

Are gay people really agents of Satan to be reviled, ostracized, persecuted, punished, and even worse, in order to fight Satan, as a force in the world, as Volkmare has suggested, or is this just a convenient justification, devoid of all truth, for the purpose of acting out personal predjudice and bigotry with God's blessing?

If Mormons such as Volkmare seek to promote false truths in their campaign against gay people, then that is their choice and that will be their downfall, because outside of the little kingdom of Utah, within modern American society, this treachary will not be allowed to stand.

Volkmare:

If they want help with your affliction of being a cold, closed hearted gay hater there are people you will help you. You could start by calling Mormon hero Dick Cheney who God blessed with a gay daughter and daughter-in-law to cure him.

I'm sure this will work better than the electro-shock torture "therapy" your Church used to "cure" gays in the 1970's at BYU and has continued to refer gays to private "doctors" for.

How much longer will Mormons believe hate is a family value?

It is pointless to argue with people who are as willfully ignorant as Volkmare. The only argument that people like that understand is a good quick swift kick in the pants. Gay people are not the threat; Mormons, like volkmare, are.

Isn't being Mormon an affliction, and isn't sending out an army of door to door proseleltyzers, making a constant nusciance of themselves, flaunting it?

The Mormon way: pick a fight over their sense of religious superiority, then stomp off in a huff, muttering about how persercuted and misunderstood they are.

It is pitiful that someone who claims, always to be seeking the truth, holds him up to intrinsically superior to a group of people, who are as a group, actually, superior to him.

""The skeptic suspects this might be only a tactical alliance by bishops anxious to campaign against same-sex marriage with the efficiency of the LDS Church that spent millions for California's Proposition 8. ""

Then call me a skeptic and show me otherwise.

fr volkmare:

>...As I said before, gays are not hated by the LDS church.
If they want help with their affliction we will help them. If they want to flaunt being gay, they are doing exactly what the adversary wants them to do.
What would you have us do at that point?

Ok. Being glbt is NOT an "affliction". It is a sexual orientation that we have, just like straights. You are BORN gay or straight.

However, HOMOPHOBIA AND BIGOTRY are afflictions, and there is help available for it. Consult your local county mental health board for referrals.

fr volkmare:

>...The California proposition 8 effort was not hate oriented, nor was it equal rights oriented...

Completely incorrect. Prop HATE is most certainly hate-oriented, and it will hopefully be overturned as unconstitutional soon.

As a gay Christian woman who married my lovely WIFE on June 28, 2008, I take great offense to your statement. Prop HATE denies marriage equality to all. Before you even go down the anti-gay road, let me tell you that we glbt's don't want to marry farm animals, kids, or siblings. We just want to AND DESERVE TO be able to marry the legal, non-attached, consenting adult of our choice.

Deal with the FACT that prop HATE sooner or later will be overturned, as it IS hate-filled.

As we remember the sacrifices of our faith filled forefathers, let us be grateful that God has protected this beautiful land for so long and has permitted freedom to ring from its shores.
Every good honest man or woman, of whatever faith they may be, is a friend. And in this day of cold secular attacks on religious persons, let us be a warm hearted band of brothers and sisters lawfully standing for the moral footings that have permitted God to preserve us a nation. And let us do it with love for all, recognizing our purpose as a sincere plea for the Almighty's continued protection.

"WE THE PEOPLE"
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.Credit From "JJ" .. http://onwapo.com

"....wedded in the traditions of the Church—Baptisms, First Communion, Confession, Confirmations, the Mass, Altar Boys, and Choirs."

Posted by: TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ1

Ah, yes, Altar Boys. We know how much your clergy likes those Altar Boys.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
Anthony M. Stevens-Arroyo
MARRIAGE CATHOLIC STYLE

IRT:
Push too much and you drive them to marriage venues like beach fronts and sky-diving.

ANS:
Catholics are not in need of lessons from the Mormon Church or any church for that matter; if anything the Mormons can learn a few lesson from the Catholic Church, viz. Jesus is God.

The Catholic Church has more than everything it needs for a long, lasting, fruitful, and beautiful Marriage. No other Religion has anything like the gifts God has bestowed on His Church. The problem for most Catholics is they don’t know it.

The problem for Catholic Marriage begins in our parochial Catholic Schools, where the children had an affinity to Catholicism, and were wedded in the traditions of the Church—Baptisms, First Communion, Confession, Confirmations, the Mass, Altar Boys, and Choirs.

Most Catholic Children don’t experience these things any more. In the ‘40s and '50s the poor could go to Catholic School because there was no tuition or tuition was affordable. If some couldn’t afford the tuition, it didn’t prevent their attendance.

Today school cost is prohibitive for many Catholics especially Catholics with big families. Consequently the family usually cops out for Public School and gets the moral Secularist treatment that morality is relative.

Consequently, the children aren’t steeped in the practical experiences of the Faith. Thus, Bishop Fulton Sheen wrote, “"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church.” That includes many Catholics as well.

No other religion has the Seven Sacraments. When the Catholic Sacraments are used religiously, there will never be a broken marriage, because the affect of supernatural graces that received are incomprehensible.

Today, many Catholics, priest and laity, are not in the family with the Church. G.K. Chesterton writes, "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried,"

For those who devoutly frequent Confession, the Mass, and receives the Eucharist there Marriage will only dissolved by death. Children who experience these supernatural graces from God in the early grades will never be wanting for inner peace. The exactness of God’s love in His Church will always be there for man to draw on all of their lives.

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... Credit to "JJ" . . . . . . . http://onwapo.com

Last summer I was traveling through Bulgaria, spending some time in Burgas on the black sea coast.

I was having lunch at the Shanghai Kitchen - a Chinese restaurant don't you know, when I overhead some American voices at a table not too far away.

Now, I was pretty sure I was the only American in this town ... so I walked over to their table and said hi. I could tell they were young Mormon missionaries simply by the way they were dressed.

We had a nice conversation, about the food, about Bulgaria, about Burgas ... I told them I had spent many years living in San Bernardino California.

"Hey, I'm from San Dimas dude!" said one of these young men.

They never bothered me about their gods or their missionary business. We spoke together as common strangers in a strange land.

Then there's all this gayophobia-driven religious money pouring into California from the leaders of the church these young men follow.

So, what's to be said? It was good meeting some fellow Americans so far away from home. It was good to speak to each other as Americans, and it was good not to have to hear their religious nonsense.

So I don't know what to think of the Mormons. Apparently the oldfux running the church have a great deal more fear of homosexuals than do the young people.

The Catholic church, following Paul perhaps, has a view of marriage that it at best ambivalent; it is inferior to celibacy, and to be engaged grudgingly for the production of children. Despite their strange ( to me at least ) theology, the Mormons have an admirable system for supporting married couples and families at every stage of their lives. Of course there are some failures, but the Mormons I know really do seem happier and more stable in their relationships and more successful in raising kids who are polite and hard working than many others. It wouldn't be a bad thing to learn from them. They are totally off the mark about gays, however, and should be reminded that many gay couples also parent children and are otherwise people just like the rest of us.

volkmare,

"Always seek the truth."

You're not looking hard enough, or, intelligently enough.

schnauzer2

Sorry, but you are in left field on that one.

The California proposition 8 effort was not hate oriented, nor was it equal rights oriented.
It was based upon scriptures.

In studying the bible, you will find that God’s plan is centered on the family, and the center of the family is the marriage of a man and a woman.

Without that union, YOU, and all gays, would not exist (Not implying that you are gay). That in its self shows that being gay goes against the natural order, let along God's plan.

The adversary would do anything to disrupt God's plan and Proposition 8 falls right in line with what the adversary wants.

As a result the LDS church fought against the adversary to support God's plan when proposition 8 came to a vote.

As I said before, gays are not hated by the LDS church.
If they want help with their affliction we will help them. If they want to flaunt being gay, they are doing exactly what the adversary wants them to do.

What would you have us do at that point?

Mark
Always seek the truth.

The Mormon divorce rate is about 25%, which is lower than the divorce rate among Fundamentalists, but still a lot higher than the divorce rate for atheists, agnostics, and free-thinkers. Twenty-Five percent seems pretty high to me.

I am friends with a Mormon couple; this is the second marriage for them both; because of this, they personlly are tolerant of people who have difficult marriages that end-up in divorce; but the model of the perfect Mormon family does not really seem to be true, but just more Mormon PR propaganda.

Areyousaying

Even though neither of us knows what we're talking about, you and I seem to have had some experience with these Mormon missionaries, that are spread out all over the place. (You can always spot them because they wear black pants and white shirts with name-tags, and they are always paied off a nerdy one with a sophisticated one).

If you avoid the subject of religion, and to a lesser extent, politics, Mormons are ok, and can be nice enough. And like all people, many of them, even including the missionaries, are glad to turn the conversation away from religion, since many of them really do not like to engage in endless acrimonious religious arguments with their neighbors.

I have met more than one Mormon missionary who actually seemed relieved to end the religeous discussion and to move on to discuss other, more normal things. I think it is a shame that the Mormon Church pressures its young people into door-to-door salesmanship, peddling a religion that most people would find, backward, silly, even preposterous.

And by the way, the Mormons ain't no friend of the Catholics; the only people who speak worse of the Catholics are the Catholics themselves.

Mormons and Catholics have a lot in common in regard to subjugating women like denying them the Priesthood. Mormons take it one step further by denying women access to "the highest level of heaven" unless they are sealed to a man in their Temple.

New Arrival: "Who are those people over there?"

St. Peter: "Shhhh, they're Mormons and they don't think there's anyone different up here.

I jokingly asked a Mormon missionary here in Chiapas, Mexico, if converting to Mormonism would turn my dark skinned Mexican girlfriend white and he solemnly replied God's mark of dark skin was in the Bible.

It was then time to offer him to share a beer with me and the conversation ended.
Keep a six-pack on hand for just such occasions.

Dotprince2001 said:

"...you have NO idea what you are talking about!"

This ought to be the Mormon slogan and motto of their churh and religion:

"You don't know what you're talking about."

They must learn to recite that trite little phrase in elementary school; I have heard it over and over, from the Mormons.

The Mormon way:
Proselytyze, pick a fight, and stomp away, saying, "you don't know what you're talking about."

What "Saints." What gay-hating "Saints."

What good-hearted and wholesome people THEY ALL are.

Mormons do not hate gays.
Anyhone who says that is misinformed.
Mark
----------------------
There work on California's Prop 8 would point otherwise. The only reason a goup would work so hard to deny others eqaul rights and protections is becasue of their hate of that group.

dotprince2001

There is nothing wrong with being gay; gay people are just fine. If you choose to be a bigot, please do not lay YOUR choice at the feet of Jesus Christ or God.

All your smug snarky comment demonstrates to me is that your religious views are primitive and backward, rooted in selfishness and meaness.

volkmare

Actions speak louder than words.

I really love this story of Christ telling Peter about the rock his church is built upon. Christ asks Peter 'whom say ye that I am?" And Simon Peter answers, "Thou art the Christ," and Christ answered and said to him, "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." and continues telling Peter that the rock of 'revealed' truth given by Christ's Father is the rock upon which 'my church' is built.

In 1981, the Mormon prophet had a vision to change the Church's racist scriptures when other universities with black players refused to play NCAA basketball with BYU.

Until 1981 2 Nephi 30:6 in the Book of Mormon taught that dark-skinned Lamanites (Indians) would eventually experience a change in the color of their skin should they embrace the Book of Mormon. This passage of Mormon scripture read:

"...their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people."

However, in 1981, the LDS Church decided to change "the most correct book on earth" and switched the word "white" with the word "pure." Some Mormons insist that this was a clarification since the word was never meant to refer to a person with dark skin pigmentation who would magically turn white based upon a conversion to the Mormon gospel; rather, it is claimed that the change referred to a cleaner state of heart. This assumption is definitely not supported in the Book of Mormon since 2 Nephi 5:21 says,

"And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, and they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

Part Ia

Furthermore, we find another reference to a change in skin color in 3 Nephi 2:15. This passage reads:

"And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites."

That the context refers to skin color is verified by a number of LDS leaders including Joseph Smith. Mormon author George D. Smith notes that Joseph Smith was given a revelation which foretold of a day when intermarriage with the Lamanites would produce a white and delightsome posterity. George Smith wrote, "This unpublished 17 July 1831 revelation was described three decades later in an 1861 letter from W.W. Phelps to Brigham Young quoting Joseph Smith: `It is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity, may become white, delightsome and just.' In the 8 December 1831 Ohio Star, Ezra Booth wrote of a revelation directing Mormon elders to marry with the `natives'" (Sunstone, November 1993, footnote #5, pg. 52).

Second LDS President Brigham Young stated in 1859, "You may inquire of the intelligent of the world whether they can tell why the aborigines of this country are dark, loathsome, ignorant, and sunken into the depths of degradation ...When the Lord has a people, he makes covenants with them and gives unto them promises: then, if they transgress his law, change his ordinances, and break his covenants he has made with them, he will put a mark upon them, as in the case of the Lamanites and other portions of the house of Israel; but by-and-by they will become a white and delightsome people" (Journal of Discourses 7:336).

At the October 1960 LDS Church Conference, Spencer Kimball utilized 2 Nephi 30:6 when he stated how the Indians "are fast becoming a white and delightsome people." He said, "The [Indian] children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation" (Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-3).

Part II

During the same message Kimball referred to a 16-year-old Indian girl who was both LDS and "several shades lighter than her parents..." He went on to say, "These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated."

LDS writer George Edward Clark gives a similar account in his book entitled "Why I Believe." On page 129 he wrote, "The writer has been privileged to sit at table with several members of the Catawba tribe of Indians, whose reservation is near the north border of South Carolina. That tribe, or most of its people, are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon). Those Indians, at least as many as I have observed, were white and delightsome, as white and fair as any group of citizens of our country. I know of no prophecy, ancient or modern, that has had a more literal fulfillment" (emphasis his).

It has also been taught in Mormonism that opposite repercussions could result when a white man abandoned his Mormon faith. For instance, the "Juvenile Instructor" (26:635) reads,

"From this it is very clear that the mark which was set upon the descendants of Cain was a skin of blackness, and there can be no doubt that this was the mark that Cain himself received; in fact, it has been noticed in our day that men who have lost the spirit of the Lord, and from whom his blessings have been withdrawn, have turned dark to such an extend as to excite the comments of all who have known them."

In 1857, Brigham Young declared that apostates would "become gray-haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil" (Journal of Discourse 5:332).

Despite the comments from past Mormon leaders, skin color has nothing to do with a person's spirituality. To say 2 Nephi 30:6 was altered merely for clarification and had nothing to do with skin color is without merit. It was a false prophecy, nothing more, nothing less.

http://mormoncurtain.com/topic_whiteanddelightsome.html

This was an excellent article and I am happy to see the LDS Church and the Catholic Church working together to solve one of society's most complex problems. As a Latter Day Saint for 34+ years, I KNOW the LDS Church loves all people. However, there is definite doctrine in the Bible that speaks directly to the issue of homosexuality. It is Romans 1:21-32. For those of you who hold the Bible as true doctrine, I encourage you to read and digest what this scripture says. For those of you who do NOT hold the Bible as true doctrine, that is between you and the Author. You will face Him one day and answer to Him for your disbelief. I am not your judge. There are also practical reasons why this issue needs to be dealt with. The fastest way for the adversary to destroy a society is to destroy the family. The fastest way to destroy the family is to destroy the sanctity of marriage. Marriage is between one man and one woman. To quote my father-in-law, who was NOT LDS "one good woman is all one good man can take care of". "Nuff said.
As for the LDS' "magic underwear" -- you have NO idea what you are talking about! Please get a REAL education before making yourself look like an idiot.

"And I say also to you, That you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18
If you chose to believe in Jesus and the Christian religion, the Catholic Church is the only one specifically and personally established by Christ.
Period.
Posted by: arancia12 | June 30, 2010 9:22 PM"

Wrong again...
He re-established his church several times.
try reading the bible. even the current mormon church is pridicted there.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

"It has been documented that the Mormon missionaries told the Natives of the Western USA that their skin was "red" instead of "European American white" like theirs as that their ancestors sinned and God punished their race by changing their skin color.
Posted by: joe_allen_doty | July 1, 2010 11:58 AM"

Wrong again...

Mark
Always seek the truth

AxelDC

Mormons do not hate gays.
Anyhone who says that is misinformed.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

The Mormon Church and the Catholic Church each operate under a highly regimented and detailed top-down system of belief, which people are expected to believe and accept as truth. They each have highly complex, legalistic, and detailed characterzations of spiritual and metaphysical aspects of man's place in the universe, as well as the true nature of physical existence.

On most things, Catholic and Mormon theology could not be more divergent, and I think that puts them at great odds with each other. That they happen to intersect in their homophobia is just an unfortunate coincidence.

FYI

The Mormons do not have a professional clergy. Compared to many other churches, Mormon church services are informal and somewhat improvised. They are a little like Quakers, in that respect. But they do have volunteer clergy-like positions, which come with some obligatons and also status.

So, a Mormon Bishop is someone who holds the title that carries some obligatons and guidlines of duty with it, but no money, and no job.

It has been documented that the Mormon missionaries told the Natives of the Western USA that their skin was "red" instead of "European American white" like theirs as that their ancestors sinned and God punished their race by changing their skin color.

arancia12 did what is called biblical proof-texting which is taking scriptures out of their orignal context to suit their own agenda.

The Greek word translated as "Peter" means a small stone. But, the word translated as "rock" means a large boulder.

The rock on which Jesus built his church was the believe that Jesus was the Anointed One of God. Jesus builds his church on those who have faith IN him.

If you believe in Jesus, you hold the keys to the Kingdom, too.

There is no biblical proof that Peter ever made to Rome. But, there is proof that Luke and Paul arrived in Rome first.

Surprised to see so many, open-minded comments here. I am an ex-Mormon and grad of BYU. My husband and I are volunteers for Secours Catholique here in France. I'm a non-believer but respect Christians who attempt to live a Christ-like life. / As for marriage: we need laws to protect individuals regardless of marital status. We need laws to protect children regarless of whom are the parents. A marriage certificate gives NO real guarantees except to the church and state to meddle in our private lives - to tell us with whom we can have sex and whom we are allowed to love. We should pay taxes and receive benefits on individual merit. / In other words, a liaison-celebration should be the choice of consenting adults with no legal ties. / I don't have a moral quarrel with polygamy or polyandry except that it usually comes from (particularly polygamy) the exploitation of relatively powerless groups. / I wish Mormons and Catholics would reject this holier-than-thou, intrusive behavior. Of course, I don't have to deal with what is called "holy scripture". I'm a free-thinker and my thought tell me that the bible should not be law. // Jean Clelland-Morin

It is interesting to read comments posted by ignorant people who know very little of what they are talking about on the issues of polygamy or why the Church is against gay marriage. Their comments reflect their bias and closed mindedness.......The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints upholds the standards set forth by Jesus Christ to the highest degree! Ours is a living Church with living Prophets to guide its membership. The honest person will give credit to the Church for the good it has accomplished throughout the world! One visit to the Humanitarian Center in Salt Lake City, or Temple Square will enlighten most honest people as to the Church's mission! And I assure you it has nothing to do with advancing a political agenda! It is about bringing people to Christ, of understanding who He is, and what He can do for us! The Church is about bringing peace to the individual through gospel understanding....ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free....free from ignorance and bondage of misinformation and lies.....A worldwide membership shows the love and brotherhood and sisterhood that can be created and established bringing peace wherever it is found....and the people thrive and improve their stations...from poverty to prosperity; sickness to health; sadness to hope....for God so loved the world that He sent His only Begotten Son to rescue a fallen world and we believe in helping in that rescue under His direction!

Joseph Smith was a fraud and a huckster and anyone who believes his tripe is so seriously gullible its not funny.

The way we see it; you either believe or you do not.

Please, do not torment the believer, nor crucify the non believer.

It is rude and mean. Thank you.

First, last and all that. You know.

And I say also to you, That you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18

If you chose to believe in Jesus and the Christian religion, the Catholic Church is the only one specifically and personally established by Christ.

Period.

It's always good fun to see the followers of one delusion berating the followers of another, and get this - for being wrong about their delusion!

hah!

dougd1 wrote:
"...One of the worst things about (most) religions is that they teach people not to think. In other words, we are taught to accept many absurd bits of dogma simply based on faith, while turning off our natural intelligence and ignoring all evidence. ..."
-------
I see you've run into Spidermean2. Wonder where he/she/it is in this thread today?

The author says "...few can argue with the framing of the issue by Archbishop Dolan of New York 'We have a vocation crisis to lifelong, life-giving, loving, faithful marriage. If we take care of that one, we'll have all the priests and nuns we need for the Church.' "
Sounds like a good basis to SUPPORT gay marriage. Both straight and gay couples seek lifelong, life-giving, loving, faithful marriage.

"SUPREME COURT to allow SEX-ABUSE CASE AGAINST VATICAN to PROCEED"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/28/AR2010062805003_Comments.html

"Harvard sociologist Pitirim Sorokin found that virtually all political revolutions that brought about societal collapse were preceded by a sexual revolution in which marriage and family were devalued by the culture’s acceptance of homosexuality."

Please give one example of this, because I have never heard of this guy or his hypothesis.

Sounds like many people on here wish to state un-educated opinions and pass them off as fact. Read the history of the Catholic Church (means "universal" before people splintered off) and read the history of the LDS. Use real cultural refrences and learn why certain things were practiced. See if those measure up to what the Bible really tells us what to do. Very important...see if those "historicle events" measure up to what was happening in the culture at said time. If you have a question about your faith- are you given the answer and the history behind it, or are you told to simply "pray on it"? God gave us His Word and we need to "comprehend" it- not inject opinion into it. Sadly many end up doing that, and as the generations go on, more and more sects will form... because of opportinism and opinion. Sad, very sad. All of us need to focus on our own faith and stop comparing one to an other....ever read the part of the Bible that said "before you remove the speck from your brother's eye, you must first remove the beam from your own eye". I thing many of you (not all) have just proven Jesus' point.

There are a few important points that the ignorant should learn about Mormonism:

1. Jospeh Smith was the cousin of Jesus. Jesus left the gold leaves for His cousin to find. Smith was not educated, and when he found the leaves he asked a neighbor, Mordachi Utuzi, to translate them for him. Smith later made Mordaci's wife, Ebbuzzella, his first of 156 wives.

2. The magic undergraments are made from lamb's wool that grows on the planet Xenofoid. Xenofoid is a planet founded by Smith in a prior life as Seadaw the Magnificent. The magic undergraments will protect the wearer from bullets, dynamite and sarcasm.

3. Mormonism has made some concessions to modernity, but Mormons have not forgotten the terrible lesson of the Curse of Ham. That's why great Mormons such as Glenn Beck and Mitt Romney can be considered today's Martin Luther King, Jr.

4. It is not Mormons who want to take over the Earth, it is every single faith other than Mormons. Mormons need not worry about the Earth once they return to their home planet.

Anthony Stevens-Arroyo!
What fun you must have had writing that!
Ripping on Catholics, Mormons and the institution of marriage all in a few strokes of the pen. Errr… keyboard.

Well I tried to find help for a homeless Mother and her two children the other day.

I looked up 15 Shelters and organizations that can help in my area.

Did I find help at any liberal, or “Community Organizing” organizations? Nope.
Government? Nope.

No!.... The only real help for this woman and her family was found at Faith based organizations like the Salvation Army and Catholic Charities.

You liberals want to tear down religion and do away with it but you offer nothing tangible to replace it.

Shaheed-Yahudi, I think you need something - medicine for schizophrenia or something - to help you think clearly.

No church is required by law to perform any ceremony. That is a violation of the First Amendment.

Your argument is a lie designed to scare religious people to oppose gay rights. Many explicitly voted for Prop 8 because they didn't want their church FORCED to perform gay marriages, and would have voted against it had they known the legal truth.

The Mormons did a great snow job funding Prop 8. I'm really not sure why Mormons hate gays so passionately, but they will never be forced by the government to perform gay marriages without repealing the First Amendment.

I suspect they are more afraid of the same social pressure that forced them to accept blacks as equals in 1978, which is not the same thing as the government forcing it upon.

"the reason why all you damn fools dont really know why the mormons are against gay marriage and spend big money against this issue is that if a gay couple wants to get married and asks the bishop of the church and he says no then he could lose his licence immediately by refusing to marry them,(discrimination)it goes against the constitution, all pastors and preachers have to apply for this licence to perform this marital act,Duh!!!!!!!"

Well, I joined the LDS 29 years ago. I am a better person because of it. I am a law abiding naturalized American citizen because of it. I am a very good employee and a loyal friend, and a good neighbor because of it. If you call me a robot to my church and accused me of not thinking for myself. YOu are an idiot who doesn't know me and the other millions of good LDS people who dot the world. And for those who accused Joseph Smith a con man, tell me what was the crime he committed. And for those who say that he has 85 wives, where are his children now if he has other than his first wife. And for those who thinks that polygamy is all sex, you yourself is pervert and an idiot, a big idiot.

The church that still believes that polygamy is an eternal principle is going to teach us about marriage??? They still seal husbands to multiple wives in their temples, so long as the husband has only one living spouse.

Mormons preaching about marriage is like Rush Limbaugh preaching about eating: they both do too much of it to appreciate it.

Just to clear up a few comments that have misquotes and misunderstoods:

1. Joseph Smith did not "write" the Book of Mormon, he translated it from ancient gold plates that were written upon by early American prophets, in the language of the Egyptians. Interestingly, he only had a third or fourth grade education at the time, and not knowing some of the words, he had to spell them, through use of the Urim and Thummim (an ancient instrument of seers, mentioned in the Old Testament) which was buried with the plates.

Another interesting item concerning the Book of Mormon, is that it was written about the same Jesus Christ, that was being written about in the Old World, at the same time -- when there was no communication between the two worlds! This gives a very powerful witness that Jesus Christ is REAL, and is verily, the Savior of the World, and that the scriptures about Him are true!

2. Another correction: the name of the book is The Book of Mormon: Another TESTAMENT of Jesus Christ, not another GOSPEL, as the posting indicated (there is a significant difference in the two, don't you think?).

3. Another post claims that Joseph Smith got the temple rituals from the Masonic Order. Excuse me, but didn't the Masons get their rituals from rites of the temple they helped build? So, who is taking from whom? Was Joseph taking temple rites from the Masons, or the Masons taking rites from the temple? After all, the temple was here first, right?

It's very easy to mislead people, if one quotes heresay, without checking references from the source, first.

Those who would like to know the truth about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) may do so by going to the LDS or Mormon websites.

You can get a free copy of the Book of Mormon by calling: 1 888 537 2200, or you can read it online.

So much to say, so little time. First, the bible states that marriage is between a man and as many women as he can find. Slaves don't count as wives, I believe. But, like wives, a man can have as many slaves as he can take. I am always amazed at how many people still argue about a book put together and highly edited by who knows who (other than kings, Papal councils, etc.) and who burned all of the "heretical writings" of those who didn't make the final cut. Yet, all of those hands were directly guided by God? Let's not forget about the Yellow Brick Road. It's real too! As to your real premise, religions all seem to believe that the only right marriage is between a man and his subjugated wife or wives, who cooks and cleans and has his babies.

Perfect example of "Blind leading the Blind"!

There is NO Catholic/Mormon alliance! Mormons actually heed their church's teachings, whereas part of being Catholic is ignoring everything your priests and bishops have to say about sex.

Given that most Catholic social events end in drunken riots, I'd advise the Mormons to keep their distance.

One of the worst things about (most) religions is that they teach people not to think. In other words, we are taught to accept many absurd bits of dogma simply based on faith, while turning off our natural intelligence and ignoring all evidence.

Both Catholics and Mormons are guilty of such anti-intellectualism. But as preposterous as many Catholic beliefs may be, at least one can argue that there isn't a lot of evidence against them because it exists too far in the past. The Mormon beliefs, on the other hand are not only more bizarre than those of the Catholics, but the evidence against them is historically quite recent and easily examined.

This is not to say these religious people are stupid or evil. It's just to point out that religions undermine our greatest asset, our intelligence and capacity to think.

Ah let's see; a con created by a convicted con man finds gold tablets in his backyard and translates them for his victims and these golden tablets get taken back by GOD! What these magic underwear folks can teach Catholics and other religious cults is that human young can be indoctrinated to believe anything if isolated from truth, reality, and education! That a secret society like LDS and the Catholic bishopric can hide within liberal laws of a nation; and propagate untold harm and misery upon its victims with impunity and with enough money and power amass even more money and power to perpetuate their fraudulent enterprises!

vigor

There are two problems with your statement.

The book of Mormon IS predicted in the bible as is Joseph Smith, and how can you not be a Christian when you follow ALL of the teachings of Christ, not just some of them as the other “Christian” faiths do.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

Gee. I misread the headline. I thought it said "What Morons can Teach Catholics". Wait. That fits.

Family and marriage is part of God's plan that you will find in scriptures.

Celibacy of priesthood is not.

Does that make catholic priests bad? No, but it does limit them in their life experiences by it.

I respect them for the choice they made to serve god, but it is clear that priesthood celibacy is not a requirement in gods plan.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

"Because it places the LDS church within mainstream American religious ecumenism,"

Except that it doesn't.

Mormon beliefs are nowhere near American Christianity.

They do not overlap and they are not compatible.

Joseph Smith is not in the bible.

In fact, speaking of marriage, this column is both educational and entertaining:

http://www.theawl.com/2010/02/the-shadow-editors-sally-quinn-disinvited

Marriage reflects the natural moral and social law evidenced the world over. As the late British social anthropologist Joseph Daniel Unwin noted in his study of world civilizations, any society that devalued the nuclear family soon lost what he called "expansive energy," which might best be summarized as society's will to make things better for the next generation. In fact, no society that has loosened sexual morality outside of man-woman marriage has survived.

Analyzing studies of cultures spanning several thousands of years on several continents, Harvard sociologist Pitirim Sorokin found that virtually all political revolutions that brought about societal collapse were preceded by a sexual revolution in which marriage and family were devalued by the culture’s acceptance of homosexuality.
When marriage loses its unique status, women and children most frequently are the direct victims. Giving same-sex relationships or out-of-wedlock heterosexual couples the same special status and benefits as the marital bond would not be the expansion of a right but the destruction of a principle. . If the one-man/one-woman definition of marriage is broken, there is no logical stopping point for continuing the assault on marriage.

If feelings are the key requirement, then why not let three people marry, or two adults and a child, or consenting blood relatives of any age? . Marriage-based kinship is essential to stability and continuity in our state. Child abuse is much more prevalent when a living arrangement is not based on kinship. Kinship imparts family names, heritage, and property, secures the identity and commitment of fathers for the sake of the children, and entails mutual obligations to the community.

The US Supreme Court declared in 1885 that states' marriage laws must be based on "the idea of the family, as consisting in and springing from the union for life of one man and one woman in the holy estate of matrimony; the sure foundation of all that is stable and noble in our civilization, the best guaranty of that reverent morality which is the source of all beneficent progress in social and political improvement.''

Richard306, no, it's an anti-religion blog. Which is what one would expect from anything moderated by Sally Quinn, who got her job by sleeping with her boss, Ben Bradlee, and breaking up his marriage. (And BTW, "accidentally" scheduled her son's wedding for the same day as Ben's granddaughter's wedding.)

Boy, there are a lot of hateful comments being posted here. Somehow, I just can't feel the love. Is this really a religious blog?

Or how about "The Year of the Pervert Priest" as the Vatican's Number Two calls the claims of the victims "petty gossip", Catholic League President Donohue calls the victims "gold diggers" and Ratzinger calls for Church "autonomy" in investigating these sexual terrorists on children which he, by the way, has helped make so effective and just all these years.

What is really ironic is that most baby-boomer Utah Mormons I grew up with were taught (and believed by their actions of beating up Catholic kids at school) that the Catholic Church is "the church of the devil"

"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God."
- Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939

Unless, of course, the Mormons are now willing to admit their Prophet was not infallible after all.

While the LDS/Mormon religious sect claims they are "Christian," their book of "Mormon" is subtitled "Another Gospel of Jesus Christ."

It is stated in the King James Version Bible, which the LDS over-sized cult claims to follow, too, to avoid those who preached another Gospel.

I really believe that while the LDS folks claim they no longer approve of polygamy, it is still a part of their doctrine.

What is the orignal meaning of the word "celibacy?" It is the condition of not being married. People have decided that "celibate" means the same thing as "chaste" in regard to sexual activity.

But, "celibate" actually means "not married, and in this discussion, a person who is chaste, is still physically a virgin.

I am openly gay; and since Ed and I were never legally married, my marital status for the 7 years that I had a covenanted relationship with him, I was still officially celibate as far as the US Government and the state of California was concerned.

The founder of Mormonism Joseph Smith lived in Vermont and wrote the Book of Mormon borrowing extensively from the King James Bible. His temple ceremonies were borrowed from Masonic rituals. He only had 85 wives while another false prophet Muhammad had 13 wives including his favorite Aisha whom he married when she was age 9. It appears false prophets have sex as their main motivation to make a new religion which will permit them to indulge their hearty sexual appetites.

"if a gay couple wants to get married and asks the bishop of the church and he says no then he could lose his licence immediately by refusing to marry them,(discrimination)it goes against the constitution"

You are incorrect, sir. A church has every right to refuse marriage to anyone that they please. Catholic priests can refuse to marry people who are divorced. I'm not sure about LDS, but I would imagine that an LDS minister(?) would be allowed to refuse the Sacrament of Marriage to anyone who was marrying outside of the Church.

In America, most marriages combine the civil part with the religious part. This is why the celebrant says, "by the power vested in my by the State of X...", and why a couple has to apply for a marriage license from a county official. Marriages conducted by a Justice of the Peace, a licensed Elvis impersonator, or anyone with civil authority granted to them by an organization can have a valid marriage - if they are of opposite genders. If the Church opposes same-sex marriage, then they don't have to perform them. Just don't use your religion to block the civil part of the marriage.

badcompany is inaccurate (this may vary from state to state).

As another poster has already noted, the Catholic Church withholds sacramental marriage from people with a civil divorce who do not also have an anullment. I am not aware of any cases where a priest upholding that point of doctrine has lost the ability to perform a state-sanctioned marriage.

I believe orthodox rabbis (whatever their view of marriage to non-Jews) would be in rhe same boat if approached to marry congregants with a civil divorce but not a get (rabbinical divorce).

In Maryland, anyone the couple to be married recognizes as a "minister of religion" can perform a legally sanctioned wedding ceremony. As an ordained cleric in a very small (3000-5000 members worldwide at most) neopagan sect, I have performed several marriages mydself, but rather than putting the Maryland statute to the test with possible complications to my friends and co-religionists, I have always recommended that the couple also get a civil ceremony and have the license signed at that function.

But the assertion that clergy would "lose their license" if they decline to perform a marriage (presumably meaning a sacramental marriage?) that is at odds with the doctrine of their church? Simply not true and arguably unconstitutional under the free exercise clause.

CATHOLIC AMERICA? Isn't that one of those Latin American countries where the Roman Catholic Church is the STATE CHURCH?

The United States of America has a secular government. We have no state religion here.

Hmmm, after living with Mormons for 22 years and being married to one for 28 more, what could Mormons teach Catholics?

I know, I know! Mormons could teach Catholics how to "cure" their homosexual priests with electro-shock therapy.

"if a gay couple wants to get married and asks the bishop of the church and he says no then he could lose his licence immediately by refusing to marry them,(discrimination)"

What a shame. I suppose Catholic priests are losing their licenses right and left for failing to marry divorcees and non-Catholics, right? I guess Orthodox Jewish rabbis are losing their licenses for failing to marry interfaith couples? And, of course, Mormon ministers don't need to worry about your point, as they've all already lost their licenses for failing to marry non-Mormon couples, right?

Just because a marriage is legal under civil, secular law does not mean that any religion or any religious practitioner is required to celebrate and/or recognize it. Your fear is misguided.

"Also, if marriage isnt one man and one woman, it could be two men and a woman, two men and two women, four male roommates...you get the idea."

Well, that was inevitable the moment we interfered with traditional marriage (i.e. parentally-arranged bargain in which the man owned the woman, made for breeding and economic purposes). After all, if ANY change to tradition means we must change EVERYTHING, we're done already, right? We can't consider each change on its individual merits - nope, we must have everything stay exactly the same or else change EVERYTHING. By your standards, because we no longer say that a married woman cannot enter into a legal contract or business relationship in her own right, we can no longer bar children or animals from such contracts, or place any legal limits whatsoever on business relationships. Clearly ridiculous.

And of course, allowing multiple marriages requires far more complexity of administration, creates far more changes to the nature of the civil marriage contract, and causes far more difficulty and far more cost to government than allowing one marriage per customer at a time, so that does give government a legitimate right to limit things. Gay marriage requires no such extra cost or energy from government, and no such change to the very nature of the civil marriage contract. Nor is saying "one to a customer" as discriminatory or unfair as saying, "you may marry someone you are biologically capable of loving, but you may not."

But that kind of thinking involves logic, and the anti-marriage folks don't believe in logic, they just want to throw tantrums and sulk until they get the right to force everyone to live as they want them to live. (Without, of course, having to subject THEIR personal lives and marital choices to anyone else's religious dogma for approval, naturally.)

I have always liked the Mormon approach to situational ethics and morality. In short Marriott preaches Mormon stuff but then always makes sure their hotels have alcohol for the heathen and I suspect profits.

Polygamy and Pedophilia are similar in that they are sex-related sins...

Also, if marriage isnt one man and one woman, it could be two men and a woman, two men and two women, four male roommates...you get the idea.

As a LDS married to a Catholic we have melded well. We have 6 children and pray together as a family every day.
For those who have ridiculous and rude comments about religion, where is your belief that this country is built on freedom of choice. Because people choose faith does not make them crazt but in most cases a better person,

Do Catholics need even more guilt and shame in their lives? Most of the Catholics I know already have more than their share of that stuff.

Or maybe there really is something to the magic underwear thing. Who can say?

Ewwwww, two creepy religions working together. The Mormon and Roman Catholic Churches are political machines interested in expanding their political and economic power. These are nasty organizations that betray everything Jesus stands for.

"That's the kind of woman I'd like as a daughter-in-law!"

My son married a girl who served a mormon mission and she looks just like that on the outside. More importantly, she is wholesome and beautiful on the inside.

I agree that laws need to be in place in order to keep adults from taking advantage of children. Apart from that, I feel like people should be able to enter into whatever family relationship they see fit with the same legal protections and advantages offered to "one man and one woman" in today's framework. Maybe polygamy works better for some people. Maybe marriage to another person of the same sex works better for some people. Perhaps some people would like to enter into partnerships that are limited - like maybe a promise for a 10 year period. To insist that everyone force themselves into the mold of "one man and one woman" is discrimination plain and simple. We diminish the potential of humanity by limiting the scope of our ability to share love and responsibility, and by imposing bigotry through legal and constituional frameworks.

"A person my age gets to thinking, "That's the kind of woman I'd like as a daughter-in-law!"

A Stepford Wife? LOL!!!

I don't think it's such a stretch to compare polygamy and pedophilia, at least in the case of fundamentalist Mormons and the mainstream church 150 years ago, when old men would marry and bed girls in their early teens.

It's like Mother Goose offering advice to the Brothers Grimm.

catholic (lower case c) does NOT mean the same thing as Catholic (upper case C). Might want to fix that on the front page.

Both the Mormon church and the Catholic church seek to regulate people through fantastical dogma, antiquated hierarchical structures, intolerance and bigotry. No thanks.

i meant if someone asks the bishop or (pastor) of the mormon church...........

the reason why all you damn fools dont really know why the mormons are against gay marriage and spend big money against this issue is that if a gay couple wants to get married and asks the bishop of the church and he says no then he could lose his licence immediately by refusing to marry them,(discrimination)it goes against the constitution, all pastors and preachers have to apply for this licence to perform this marital act,Duh!!!!!!!

Uh oh, the prisoners of religion are arguing amongst themselves over technicalities.

Instead, let's focus on those things held in common... Like paying protection (I mean "tithing") and believing in nonsense.

This is called "Organized Religion" because "Organized Crime" was already taken.

excellent article.

NATURAL LAW VRS UNNATURAL LAW.

Just two points of contention here. The LDS church did NOT spend "millions" of dollars on prop 8! I'm so sick of hearing this bit of mis-information because it is simply not true. The real number is less than 1 million. Second, to in any way equate polygamy to pedophilia is pretty outrageous.

For articles regarding the long-term impact of the Mormom (LDS) Church's involvement with California's Proposition 8, see http://www.prop8-lds.com and http://www.prop8-lds.com/page2.html

"Supreme Court to allow sex-abuse suit against Vatican to proceed"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/28/AR2010062805003_Comments.html

oooopps.

"Only "APOCALYPTARian"-FAith/Belief/Religion", aka The "RELiGION OF EVERYTHING, BEFORE THE SCiENCE OF EVERYTHING" is Prophetically "Made-In-America! Includes, incorporating Native-Ameri's System into OUR "IT" ("G-D", if any; by manymany names) via OUR (not MY) Holyi-Cosmic Feelings of course!"

Sounds like The "Catholic" xstian's & Similarly situated folks are Jealous.

Unfortunately Because "LDS" & Co., Uses the "King James Version" [KJV Bible; Imported & Monopolized by the 'CROWN' of England/Monarchy] as a 'Supplement' to their 'Book Of Mormon' THAT

Mormonism nor Catholicism & similar is NOt "Made-In-America"! All R' iMported Religion Systems (HERE). see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorized_King_James_Version

Note: ALL, EVERY & ANY "NOt-Made-In-America" competing Religion SYSTEM(s) are inflicted with either or both , "RELIGiOUS JEALOUSY PSCYCHOSiS" & or "PRE-APOCALYPTiC Si(y)NDROME".

Only "APOCALYPTARian"-FAith/Belief/Religion", aka the "RELiGION OF EVERYTHING, BEFORE THE SCiENCE OF EVERYTHING" is Prophetically "Made-In-America! Includes, incorporating Native-Ameri's into OUT "IT" ("G-D", if any; by manymany names) Feelings of course! The "IT" Religion/belief is 100% Made In America; NOt 50/50 etc..

So Praise the HOLYi NO-MON-WOM! Note: G-D (if any) is neither a "HE" nor a "SHE" but an "IT"! Else all is False Faith, Belief, Religion thinking; aka PRE-APOCALYPTARians. unlike US Apocalyptarian(s) thinkers.

Hence the difference between a "Apocalyptarian-Scientist" {i.e. Mr. Albert Einstein(pbuh) et al} see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein AND

a "Pre-Apocalyptarian (wannabe)Scientist" {i.e. Mr. Francis Collins et al) see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins_(geneticist) .

As a Mormon I want to thank you for the praise you give my religion. I know that my faith has been extremely important in my marriage and I often look to teaching from the LDS Church to learn how to be a better husband and father.