PS John Cornwell some time ago went public recanting his 1999 book and apologizing to the public for slanting the 'facts'. Most of the charges against the wartime Church stem from a 1962 Stasi (false) document that R. Hochhoth fashioned into a 1966 play. How the falsehood was dissemated has been known since the mid 1990s..still it's taken on a life of its own.

See Michael Burleigh's "Sacred Causes: Religion and Politics in the 20th century" for a fuller discussion.

Note I don't have a huge list. Another mark of the propagandist.

Farnaz2:

You post under multiple names and even more strangely put a different personality to each name. I don't bother to read the Jacoby so I'm in error over who CCNL's "Gang of Four" were. But your outlook as Farnaz in the end was so close to that of Observer12, that even without your error the similarity was hard to miss.

I guessed at the Sparrow4 and my reasoning was simply she was always so furious--furious!--at me and I hardly knew her. We must have collided earlier and it could only have been as one of your earlier'clones'.

Whilst I knew you posted in multiples, what threw me off was the very vicious anti-Catholicism exhibited by Observer, Sparrow, yourself, and earlier personae. This does not seem typical of the usual professional propagandist who tend to be quite polite. They tend to stay on topic--say anti-gay marriage or anti-abortion--prolife's posts (previously anonymous) were professional and a good example of these traits.

Well, to each his/her own. But I hope not to see you here overmuch, it's not very truthful to pretend to be all sorts of different people, all in varying degrees exhibiting the most foul prejudice against Catholics, is it?

Although it is up to the others on the Jacoby whether your views are tolerated. To each his/her own. Live and let live and all that.

What a cynical post, Mr. Arroyo. But many people know by now that Catholicism is the real enemy of Judaism. I don't think they can be tipped off that easily nowadays.

I would like to pick two remarkable phrases:

"The Church acts as guardian of moral concern"

"I am not attacking U.S.-Israel relations in mentioning these events"

Moral concern? The Church?
You are not attacking US-Israel relations?

NWOR.

It's foolish how people of faith go for each other's throat with so much rage. So much fear for the "other" religion.

After reading all the panelists responses to the main question, it is disgusting to see so many pastors, professors, ministers, etc. only search for their groups' interests and not even bother to be somewhat kind and respectful to other religions. Christian talibans like Rodriguez being by far the worse.

And still the Jewish infidel does not address the issues especially that of being an employee of the JDL!!!

From my 3:01 post--errata

See also, the eminent Catholic theologian, Rosemary Reuther, Constantine and the sword

The title of Reuther's excellent book is "Faith and Fratricide." As Stevens-Arroyo knows, James Carroll wrote "Constantine and the Sword."

Anthony Stevens-Arroy
politicallyincorrectworldcitizen:

Short list of readings on the Church and the Shoah--More to come

Carroll, James, Constantine's sword, The church and the Jews; A history, Boston, Mass.: Houghton Mifflin, 2001

Kertzer, David I, The Popes against the Jews, The Vatican's role in the rise of modern anti-Semitism, New York: Knopf, 2001.

Cornwell, John. Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII. New York: Viking, 1999.

Friedlaender, Saul. Pius XII and the Third Reich: A Documentation. New York: Knopf, 1966.

Lapide, Pinachas, The Last Three Popes and the Jews. London: Souvenir Press, 1967

Phayer, Michael, The Catholic Church and the Holocaust, 1930-1965. Bloomington, Ind.: Indiana University Press, 2000

Morley, John. Vatican Diplomacy and the Jews during the Holocaust, 1939--1943. New York: Ktav, 1980.

Rittner, Carol et al. eds. The Holocaust and the Christian World, Reflections on the Past, Challenges for the Future, London: Kupard, 2000

Phayer, Michael, The Catholic Church and the Holocaust, 1930-1965. Bloomington, Ind.: Indiana University Press, 2000

Rittner, Carol et al. eds. The Holocaust and the Christian World, Reflections on the Past, Challenges for the Future, London: Kupard, 2000

Zuccotti, Susan, Under His Very Windows: The Vatican and the Holocaust in Italy. New Haven, Conn: Yale University Press, 2000

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen: For your information

Anthony,

"As noted on the cover of the December 23, 1940 edition of Time magazine: "In Germany only the cross has not bowed to the swastika."
--------------------

The more I read your inaccurate post, the more concerned I become. You are, after all, a college educator, and I fear for your students. If you are ignorant of the tools of research and the ethical use of information, how will you teach these skills in your classes? The misinformation and disinformation on the Shoah, to which the US and Europe were subject has been the subject of numerous articles. At least one recent book deals with the New York Times alone.

In fact, there were numerous nazi priests throughout the Third Reich, most certainly in Germany, and in the Vatican, itself. Moreover, the Concordat, still in effect, contained a declaration of allegiance to the Reich to be read aloud during Church services. The Church, in fact used slave labor, and was guilty of worse atrocities. One horrifying example are the fifteen hundred Croatian clerics who ran concentration camps, cut up living Jews, Serbs, and Roma with scissors, depositing the loot in Vatican Bank, which still has it. These Catholic clerics never faced justice.

Let us now focus more precisely on your contentions and quote from Time Magazine. What follows is from the web site Concordat Watch:

"Cardinal Faulhaber, who helped negotiate the concordat with Hitler (and who ordained the present pope), assessed its international impact in a 1937 sermon:

"At a time when the heads of the major nations in the world faced the new Germany with cool reserve and considerable suspicion, the Catholic Church, the greatest moral power on earth, through the Concordat expressed its confidence in the new German government."

- Guenter Lewy, The Catholic Church and Nazi Germany

January 6, 2009 10:53 PM

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen:

I suspect Ravitchn has done enough "intensive reading" on the subject. You might begin here. All of these texts mention the RCC.

See also, the eminent Catholic theologian, Rosemary Reuther, Constantine and the sword.

Fr. Edward Flannery, The Anguish of the Jews

AND ESPECIALLY, anything by Leon Poliakov

Almog, Shmuel, ed. Antisemitism Through The Ages. Oxford: Pergamon Press, 1988.

Bergman, Werner. Error Without Trial: Psychological Research on Antisemitism. Berlin; New York: Walter de Gruyter, 1988.

Cohn, Norman. Warrant for Genocide: The Myth of the Jewish World-conspiracy and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. New York: Harper & Row, 1966.

Cooper, Abraham. Portraits of Infamy: A Simon Wiesenthal Center Exhibit: Catalogue: Source Book. Los Angeles: Simon Wiesenthal Center, 1987.

Curtis, Michael, ed. Antisemitism in the Contemporary World. Boulder, CO.: Westview Press, 1986.

Fein, Helen, ed. The Persisting Question: Sociological Perspectives and Social Contexts of Modern Antisemitism. Berlin; New York: Walter de Gruyter, 1987.

Gilman, Sander L. and Steven T. Katz, eds. Anti-Semitism in Times of Crisis. New York: New York University Press, 1991.

Hay, Malcolm. The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism. New York: Freedom Library Press, 1981.

Hirsch, Jerbert and Jack D. Spiro, eds. Persistent Prejudice: Prespectives on Anti-semitism. Fairfax, VA: George Mason University Press, 1988.

Katz, Jacob. From Prejudice to Destruction: Anti-Semitism, 1700-1933. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1980.

Langmuir, Gavin I. Toward a Definition of Antisemitism. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1990.

Levy, Richrad S. Antisemitism in the Modern World: An Anthology of Texts. Lexington, MA: D.C. Heath, 1991.

Lewis, Bernard. Semites & Anti-Semites: An Inquiry into Conflict and Prejudice. New York: W.W. Norton, 1986.

Nicholls, William. Christian Antisemitism: A History of Hate. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson, 1993.

Poliakov, Leon. The History of Anti-semitism. 3v. New York: Vanguard Press, 1965-74.

Strauss, Herbert A., ed. Hostages of Modernization: Studies on Modern Antisemitism 1870-1933/9. 2v. Berlin: Walter de Gruyter, 1993.

Weinberg, Meyer. Because They Were Jews: A History of Antisemitism. New York: Greenwood Press, 1986.

Wistrich, Robert S. Antisemitism: the Longest Hatred. New York: Pantheon, 1991

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 writes to ravitchn

"The Catholic Church was not a part of the persecution of Jews in Germany. The first country Nazi Germany invaded was Poland. Poland is and was almost 95% Catholic."

Har! Not very original, but har! Scroll down to Observer12's posts for the short list. As for the RCC in Poland, its "Days without Jews," its Catholic citizens' atrocities against Jews while they were under occupation! I mean Har.

How about the persecutions of Jews while German soldiers were massing at the border. Har.

Pathetic really.

WHY NOT DO SOMETHING ELSE? Go to Wikipedia and look up Bishop Alois Hudal? If this article doesn't cover the Rat Line, do a quick search.

This ongoing denial serves no one, least of all those Catholics who engage it. How could it possibly benefit you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alois_Hudal

Ravitchn:

You are right in highlighting the history of the early Christian church where the Christian converts were persecuted by their Jewish counterparts. However the Jews did not kill any Christian. It is described in the Book of Acts. It is Roman pagans who take the prize for killing Christians for three centuries.

ravitchn :
In the face of this, forget the Holocaust, the only attitude is repentance and silence.

January 7, 2009 8:47 AM

============================
The Holocaust has to do with German nationalism. A bit of intense reading would help. Some of the elite Nazis worshiped Wotan, the German pagan god and indulged in occult practices. Swastika is actually a hooked cross (Hakenkreuz) which could be interpreted as desecration of the cross, not the veneration of it as a Christian symbol. German nationalism as a religion was propagated by a few Protestant pastors under the instruction of the state. The mainstream Protestant Church broke away from the nationalism as religion very early. Read about Dietrich Bonhoeffer etc. The Catholic Church was not a part of the persecution of Jews in Germany. The first country Nazi Germany invaded was Poland. Poland is and was almost 95% Catholic.

Farnaz2 :
Like many others, I am strongly opposed to tax exempt status for organized religions. However, the RCC has been particularly transgressive, as again and again it involves itself in politics, violating the requirements of tax exempt status.

Their behavior during the recent American presidential election was deplorable, as has been their intervention in matters concerning choice, marriage, stem cell research. I strongly believe conscience clauses are unconstitutional, and have finally found a group that is working to rid the country of them.
January 6, 2009 10:59 PM

===============
Since when does the US Constitution prohibit one from using one's conscience? Remember WW II and the Nazi explanation that they were simply obeying orders didn't hold much water in the Nurnberg trials? They were told they had a duty to obey their conscience, even at the point of dying at the hands of their bosses. How could anyone forget that?

However if Kashmir insists on autonomy, it is better for India to let Kashmir go, for autonomy is about not wanting to belong to India. It is about being a separate country under the protection of India. And Kashmir may then choose to be equally under the protection of Pakistan.

It is in the best interest of Kashmiris to remain a part of India, and retain all its individuality and culture while being a part of greater India, as all other Indian states do - with all its different languages and cultures and mixture of religions.

I personally look forward to the day in the distant future when CM Omar Abdullah will become the Prime Minister of India. He is a great stateman who will Kashmiris and India proud.

An independent or autonomous Kashmir has as much chance of survival as an independent nations as a snowball in hell. With Pakistan trying to "liberate" Kashmir for nearly 62 years, it is anybody's guess what will happen if Kashmir becomes autonomous or independent. Within a matter of days, it will be annexed by the military dictatorship of Pakistan so that the revenues collected through tourism can flow freely into the upkeep of the military dictatorship. Hopefully Kashmiris are smart enough to see through the ruse of Pakistan to "liberate" them.

akhajawall :
To all concerned

" All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is people, politicians, and political leaders around the world either stay mum or shift the blame onto oppressed, occupied, and tormented"

What Israel is doing in the name of security onto impoverished and victimized Palestinians is a solid and ultimate State Sponsored Terrorism and same is true about India who has turned divided Kashmir into massive concentration camp on the Top of World.

As a naturalized Kashmir born American Citizen, disabled American Veteran and Forensic psychiatrist, I plead to my current president, Hon. President Bush to stop all aid to Israel and freeze the any relationship with India.

I suggest to incoming president elect, Hon. Barrack Obama to appoint outgoing president as special envoy to permanently, peacefully and amicably solve Israel-Palestinian Conflict and Hon. former President Bill Clinton to erase the line of conflict [LOC] between the divided people of Kashmir.

Yours truly,

COL. A.M.Khajawall [Ret]
Las Vegas NV USA

January 6, 2009 1:32 PM

**************************
Pakistan was a part of India until the partition based on religious grounds in 1947. The partition cost over one million people their lives and untold misery to many more millions due to the largest displacement of peoples in the shortest period of time in world history.

Kashmir therefore was a part of India and it is Pakistan which has been trying to annexe it in the name of religion. Yet again!

The recent elections in J & K should convince anyone how the people of Kashmir have opted for democracy as part of India. The new Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir, Mr Omar Abdullah, has joined forces with the Congress Party to form a new government. If you wish Kashmiris well, then wish Chief Minister Omar Abdullah well and send him your prayers and best wishes. The Kashmiri separatists are backed by Pakistan, for obvious reasons. J & K is viewed as lucrative tourist spot. "Liberating" Kashmir in the name of religion bit is just hogwash. While everyone are at trying to figure out the terrible things done to Muslims, keep in mind also the many Kashmiri Hindus who were driven out of their homes or killed by Muslims. But the people living in J & K are ready for peace and democracy. It would be a good thing if outsiders did not wish them division and war.

And still the infidel does not address the issues especially that of being an employee of the JDL!!!

And again staying on topic:

How about some Religion Reality 101? Arminius does need some added convincing that Jesus was simply a peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man. And please realize that the atoms and molecules of this preacher man are by this time spread all over Palestine and Israel making the area the Holiest of Holy Ground. That fact alone should bring peace to the area!!!

CCNL BunBun,

AWwwwwww! Poorr Thing!!!! Jihadist won't play, Deb Chatterjee answers with reason your Puff pasted slander of Hinduism....

Oh!! What will yoo doo? And your fellow Muffinists don't want yoo?

OH NO :-(

Indeed considering the her lack of addressing the issues of her employment at JDL, the sudden absense of Observer12, and her obsession with defending Judaism even though she is a confirmed atheist/infidel does make one pause about who Franaz really is. Maybe we should send her some pagan jewelry so she can at least "look the talk"!!

CCNL BunBun,

AWwwwwww! Poorr Thing!!!! Jihadist won't play, Deb Chatterjee answers your Puff cut and pastes slander of Hinduism with reason....

Oh!! What will yoo doo? And your fellow Muffinists don't want yoo?

OH NO :-(

Well, looks like Farnaz is again living up to her JDL, "blog hogging" award.

Hmmm, and again so far Farnaz has not proven much about her using multiple ID's. Tis easy to do if you have access to multiple computers/e-mail addresses. And she says nothing about her possible relationship with the JDL.

And Observer12 is still silent about the situation.

Hmmm, will we really ever know??? Maybe we should ask the Shadow?

Hey, a simple cross hanging around Farnaz's neck and she would be free from all these AS "ghosts".

Ditto for some pagan jewelry and available on-line at reasonable prices e.g. http://www.ladyhawkstreasures.com/jewelry.htm

After all she is a confirmed atheist/infidel. She might as well live, talk and dress like one!!!

And hmmm, the original gang of four, we do believe, was composed of Farnaz, Psuedo, Arminius and Sparrow. Could be Observer12 aka Farnaz and The Jihadist were also part of the Bun-Bun parade???

How about some Religion Reality 101? Arminius does need some added convincing that Jesus was simply a peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man. And please realize that the atoms and molecules of this preacher man are by this time spread all over Palestine and Israel making the area the Holiest of Holy Ground. That fact alone should bring peace to the area.

Mary Cunningham:

BTW.

These were not CCNL's "gang of four," but you also left out "Pseudo," whom you also accused me of being.

Mary Cunningham (Speed123, thehereandnow, peer review, etc.) writes to DITLD:

Mary_Cunningham Author Profile Page:

DITLD:

You wrote ===>Something is a little odd here

Oh, Farnaz2 and Observer12 are the same persona, that's clear. She made a mistake, logged out as Observer, logged in as Farnaz,then--without realizing her error--posted as if she were still logged in as Observer. She's probably Sparrow4 and MightySparrow as well. CCNL used to call them the "Gang of Four" but they were really four-in-one, all the same person. (Kind of like the Holy Trinity only one better!)
____________________
Mary Cunningham aka Speed 123 aka the here and now aka Peer Review:

Still up to your old tricks. Sorry to disappoint. First, Farnaz doesn't speak German. Second, she is Jewish and from Iran. Third, she discovered this blog a long time after Observer12 evidently did.

Sometimes, she may occasionally write in the third person (see other threads) but she never accuses unless first accused, never starts fire but will not use a cup of water to put out the ones that others do. Farnaz wonders why u are so threatened by her, why you have always been.

Sorry, MaryC, err Speed, err the here and now err whatever. NOt even a nice try. You have to log sign in and log in in order to post on this blog.

When will you learn to stop blaming victims? Who is responsible for the anti-Jewish bigotry in Arroyo's post?

mary_cunningham:

You wrote:

"Anti-Semitism was prevalent during antiquity, long before Christians had freedom of worship, power or any kind of numbers. If I had to choose one date it would be AD70, or the first destruction of the temple during the campaign against Judea by Titus. The second would be Hadrian's in AD140, when Jerusalem was leveled, the Jews ethnically cleansed and Judea renamed Aeolia (a fate modern Israelis would probably like for the Palestinians). Both emperors also moved against the nascent Church and sent Christians to the arena. Roman emperors persecuted many ethnic groups--after all it was an empire built on slavery, they needed raw materials!-- Jews were merely one of them."

And I ask:

What does any of that have to do with historical and present anti Semitism associated with the Catholic church and its teachings?

DITLD:

You wrote ===>Something is a little odd here

Oh, Farnaz2 and Observer12 are the same persona, that's clear. She made a mistake, logged out as Observer, logged in as Farnaz,then--without realizing her error--posted as if she were still logged in as Observer. She's probably Sparrow4 and MightySparrow as well. CCNL used to call them the "Gang of Four" but they were really four-in-one, all the same person. (Kind of like the Holy Trinity only one better!)

But you have to ask yourself why construct such an elaborate ruse? This is, after all, an American blog and there are plenty of natural sympathizers for the Israeli point of view as well as many who also possess a visceral, almost vicious anti-Catholicism (and some of these are Catholics!)

There are a few clues: 1) she is almost always around, 2) she is formidably well prepared with briefs to defend any and all positions she takes, 3) if someone criticiques the briefs, she merely piles on more and rarely answers the criticism 4) she intentionally--during times of ME crises--diverts the discussion on the Jacoby to anti-Semitism or the perfidies of the Church, 5) she periodically engages in what I call online muggings against the more independent bloggers who look like they might challenge her view, 6) she brings in her foul-mouthed 'clones' (Obs.12, Sparrow) to do her dirty work, kind of a Dr Jeckyl and Mr Hyde manoeuvre.

So I would say she is a propagandist, paid for by a pro-Israeli or some kind of anti-Defamation Jewish group. Since atheists tend to be more left wing and critical of Israel, she concentrates most of her efforts amongst the atheists. The anti-defamation work is her business, the detour into a vicious anti-Catholicism is probably pure pleasure.

Capt Ahab:

Anti-Semitism was prevalent during antiquity, long before Christians had freedom of worship, power or any kind of numbers. If I had to choose one date it would be AD70, or the first destruction of the temple during the campaign against Judea by Titus. The second would be Hadrian's in AD140, when Jerusalem was leveled, the Jews ethnically cleansed and Judea renamed Aeolia (a fate modern Israelis would probably like for the Palestinians). Both emperors also moved against the nascent Church and sent Christians to the arena. Roman emperors persecuted many ethnic groups--after all it was an empire built on slavery, they needed raw materials!-- Jews were merely one of them.

Intellectually the Vatican knows it has historically promulgated anti Semitism, and that it needs to change. Hence, it tries with its intellectually well crafted statements against anti Semitism. However, deep down in its gut it still feels that the Jews killed Jesus, and they refuse to accept the new Christian covenenant. So the masters of the Church just can't shake themselves free of that old time religion. When push comes to shove the Palestinians are just the sheep like victims of the Israeli wolves. The more things change the more they stay the same. It ain't pretty, but it's pretty much the truth Mr. Stevens-Arroyo.

marcedward1 :

"MichaelNJ, Israel spies on the USA more than any other country spies on the US"

Evidence?

Mary Cunningham has a point. Something is a little odd here.

captn_ahab writes
'Suppose there was an ethnic enclave just outside the Vatican between it and Italy, but surrounded and controlled by the Italian military'

Than the Vatican could send out some little girls to chase them away.

ravitchn, any sane person opposed Zionism, which is just racism. Ethnic clensing was practiced by Hitler you know - maybe you're a fan?

Posted on January 6, 2009 21:14

MichaelNJ, Israel spies on the USA more than any other country spies on the US - some 'friend'!

The author wrote, "...the Vatican's pronouncements about Israel and the Palestinians DO constitute Church teaching." This over-generalized statement is absolutely untrue, and no well-educated Catholic would ever believe it. By the way, a commenter inaccurately stated that Hitler and many of his deputies were Roman Catholic. In fact, Hitler and Naziism itself was atheistic. To say Hitler was a Roman Catholic is the same as saying Karl Marx was a practicing Jew - absurd on its face!

Mr. Stevens-Arroyo claims the Vatican is evenhanded and therefore that "by recognizing the humanity of both sides in the conflict, the church seeks to be able to admonish both to avoid violence. Thus, criticism of Israel for the Gaza invasion includes denunciation of attacks from Hamas." Except the Vatican does not seem to have criticized Hamas rocket fire until throwing it in while condemning Israel's attack on Gaza. That is not evenhandedness, that is willful blindness to the acts of terror of Hamas, or perhaps even tacit approval.

Michaelnj either doesn't know squat about the attack on the USS Liberty or is a shill for Israel.

1. All the survivors say the attack could only have been deliberate. Anyone wanting to hear from the those who were there can visit their website http://www.gtr5.com/.

2. Naval officers involved in the original "inquiry" say it was a whitewash. See "New revelations in attack on American spy ship: Veterans, documents suggest U.S., Israel didn't tell full story of deadly '67 incident" (John Crewdson, Chicago Tribune, October 2, 2007).

The nauseous and anti-American rants like those of Michaelnj are an affront to all those serving in the US armed forces. Is he writing for al Qaeda?

When it comes to Jews Catholics needs to do only one thing and only that: recall that Mary and Joseph and all the apostles were Jews; that the rivalry between the rabbis and the new Christian community, entirely Jewish for a generation, led to anti-Jewish attitudes (found in the most Jewish of the Gospels, Matthew) which became over timed hard rock-like. Jews became for Christians the deicides, the followers of Satan and the source of every evil inside and outside the Church. In the face of this, forget the Holocaust, the only attitude is repentance and silence.

Farnaz2:
Observer12 posted a long diatribe about Croatian Catholics (4:24 am) but the next to CCNL at 4.33am (telling him “I know Farnaz is on some sort of campaign to save your sorry ass, but I'm not. Get lost”) was sent from Farnaz2!

Either you—Farnaz2-- are suffering from multiple personality disorder, and you really ARE mad, or you are posting the same anti-Catholic cant under different names, in which case you are technically sane, but still a little crazy.

You need to keep your personae separate.

Oh! And Happy New Year! to real, imaginary & those somewhere in between

Last thoughts.

Lots of good synagogues in Philadelphia. Just say the word.

Farnaz

CCNL;

If you want to convert, on the other hand, we'll be happy to help. You'll need to see a rabbi of course.

CCNL:

I know Farnaz is on some sort of campaign to save your sorry ass, but I'm not. Get lost.

Catholic Priest Officiates at Fully-Uniformed Nazi's Funeral

July 31, 2008

Commander of the second-largest concentration camp complex of World War II -- Croatia's Jasenovac -- passed away last week and received a burial in his homeland -- in full Nazi uniform, with full honors, and with a Catholic priest officiating. No media attention and therefore no public outrage is being devoted to the funeral of Dinko Sakic, a gruesome but not atypical occurrence in what is the Former Yugoslavia's frontrunner for EU membership -- Croatia. George W. Bush recently cited the country's picturesque coastline while hailing Croatia for "showing leadership in the cause of freedom." (See also "Cheney: US backs Croatia for joining NATO, EU".)

Hitler's most eager butchers were the Croatians -- whose singularly sadistic methods the German Nazis had to put a stop to because the situation was causing rebellions in occupied Yugoslavia. Croatia's fuehrer, Ante Pavelic -- who kept a bowl of Serbian eyes on his desk -- is revered to this day by mainstream Croatians, still proud of their one and only true identity -- as Ustasha (alternately spelled "Ustasa"). That is the name of the Nazi regime of the Hitler-bestowed Independent State of Croatia (known as "NDH" in the region). Only a couple news organizations had the story of the pro-Nazi burial with the Catholic bishop, starting with a Serbian-American website called Serbianna:

Croatian commander of the notorious WWII Nazi Ustasa concentration camp in Jasenovac, Dinko Sakic was buried in the full Ustasa uniform confirms Father Vjekoslav Lasic, Croatian Catholic priest.

"God has forgiven Sakic all that was not in sync with God's law, if he did anything like that," said Lasic at the funeral of Sakic.

Lasic said that he was proud to have seen Sakic dressed in the WWII Ustasa uniform while in Dubrava hospital where he died.

Father Vjekoslav Lasic at the Sakic burial in Zagreb, Croatia.

"Independent State of Croatia is the foundation of today's homeland of Croatia," said Lasic.

Ustasa were Croatian Nazis who declared Croatia independent and went on to kill over [a] million of Serbs, Jews and Roma in WWII. Killing was done in several concentration camps such as Jasenovac and Stara [G]radiska.

Croatians mourn the death of Sakic.

Dinko Sakic was commander of both concentration camps. Sakic's wife, Nada, was half sister of a notorious Croat murderer [named] Maks Luburic. After WWII, Sakic fled to Argentina where he opened a textile factory. Sakic was extradited to Croatia in 1998 where he was sentence[d] only 20 years for his crimes.

Video of Jasenovac and Stara Gradiska

Father Lasic who led the Catholic burial for Sakic held numerous masses in the past for the leader of the Ustasa Ante Pavelic.

"[E]very honorable Croat is proud of the name of Dinko Sakic," said Lasic at the funeral.

The Roman Catholics in Nazi Germany's Leadership

Among the many Nazi leaders, in addition to Adolf Hitler, who were Roman Catholics were Josef Goebbels, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, and Rudolf Hoess, (not to be confused with Hitler's Deputy Fuëhrer and secretary, Rudolf Hess).

Atrocities committed by the Jews are nothing new if you believe the OT is true:

Biblical Atrocities

Exodus 32: 3,000 Israelites killed by Moses for worshipping the golden calf.

Numbers 31: After killing all men, boys and married women among the Midianites, 32,000 virgins remain as booty for the Israelites. (If unmarried girls are a quarter of the population, then 96,000 people were killed.)

Joshua:

Joshua 8: 12,000 men and women, all the people of Ai, killed.

Joshua 10: Joshua completely destroys Gibeon ("larger than Ai"), Makeddah, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron, Debir. "He left no survivors."

Joshua 11: Hazor destroyed. [Paul Johnson, A History of the Jews (1987), estimates the population of Hazor at ?> 50,000]
TOTAL: if Ai is average, 12,000 x 9 = 108,000 killed.

Judges 1: 10,000 Canaanites k. at Battle of Bezek. Jerusalem and Zephath destroyed.

Judges 3: ca. 10,000 Moabites k. at Jordan River.

Judges 8: 120,000 Midianite soldiers k. by Gideon

Judges 20: Benjamin attacked by other tribes. 25,000 killed.

1 Samuel 4: 4,000 Isrealites killed at 1st Battle of Ebenezer/Aphek. 30,000 Isr. k. at 2nd battle.
David:

2 Samuel 8: 22,000 Arameans of Damascus and 18,000 Edomites killed in 2 battles.

2 Samuel 10: 40,000 Aramean footsoldiers and 7,000 charioteers killed at Helam.

2 Samuel 18: 20,000 Israelites under Absalom killed at Ephraim.

1 Kings 20: 100,000 Arameans killed by Israelites at Battle of Aphek. Another 27,000 killed by collapsing wall.

2 Chron 13: Judah beat Israel and inflicted 500,000 casualties.

2 Chron 25: Amaziah, king of Judah, k. 10,000 from Seir in battle and executed 10,000 POWs. Discharged Judean soldiers pillaged and killed 3,000.

2 Chron 28: Pekah, king of Israel, slew 120,000 Judeans

TOTAL: That comes to about 1,283,000 mass killings specifically enumerated in the Bible.

Islam's conquests and involvement in the slave trade makes it past also quite bloody, brutal and rife with atrocities:

"Ronald Segal, in Islam's Black Slaves, estimates the total number of African slaves shipped to the Muslim world at 11.5M-14M. This breaks down as follows:

From 650-1600 CE

Citing Ralph Austen:
Trans-Saharan: 4,820,000
Red Sea: 1.6M
East Africa: 0.8M
TOTAL: 7.22M shipped
Citing Paul Lovejoy: 3.5-10.0M shipped
17th Century

Sahara: 0.7M
Red Sea: 0.1M
East Africa: 0.1M
TOTAL: 900,000 shipped

18th C
Sahara: 0.7M
Red Sea: 0.2M
East Africa: 0.4M
TOTAL: 1,300,000 shipped

19th C
Sahara: 1.2M
Red Sea: 0.45M
East Africa: 0.442M
TOTAL: 2,092,000 shipped

TOTAL: 11,512,000 shipped

Like many others, I am strongly opposed to tax exempt status for organized religions. However, the RCC has been particularly transgressive, as again and again it involves itself in politics, violating the requirements of tax exempt status.

Their behavior during the recent American presidential election was deplorable, as has been their intervention in matters concerning choice, marriage, stem cell research. I strongly believe conscience clauses are unconstitutional, and have finally found a group that is working to rid the country of them.

Your post, which contains numerous factual errors, serving a particular political bias, implicitly requesting Vatican intervention is another reason for ending these special tax exemptions. The RCC and the Fundies are, by far, the worst offenders.

Anthony,

"As noted on the cover of the December 23, 1940 edition of Time magazine: "In Germany only the cross has not bowed to the swastika."
--------------------

The more I read your inaccurate post, the more concerned I become. You are, after all, a college educator, and I fear for your students. If you are ignorant of the tools of research and the ethical use of information, how will you teach these skills in your classes? The misinformation and disinformation on the Shoah, to which the US and Europe were subject has been the subject of numerous articles. At least one recent book deals with the New York Times alone.

In fact, there were numerous nazi priests throughout the Third Reich, most certainly in Germany, and in the Vatican, itself. Moreover, the Concordat, still in effect, contained a declaration of allegiance to the Reich to be read aloud during Church services. The Church, in fact used slave labor, and was guilty of worse atrocities. One horrifying example are the fifteen hundred Croatian clerics who ran concentration camps, cut up living Jews, Serbs, and Roma with scissors, depositing the loot in Vatican Bank, which still has it. These Catholic clerics never faced justice.

Let us now focus more precisely on your contentions and quote from Time Magazine. What follows is from the web site Concordat Watch:

"Cardinal Faulhaber, who helped negotiate the concordat with Hitler (and who ordained the present pope), assessed its international impact in a 1937 sermon:

"At a time when the heads of the major nations in the world faced the new Germany with cool reserve and considerable suspicion, the Catholic Church, the greatest moral power on earth, through the Concordat expressed its confidence in the new German government."

- Guenter Lewy, The Catholic Church and Nazi Germany

Mr. Stevens-Arroyo!! How dare you criticize Israel for even one minute!?!? You must be an anti-Semite! Israel is just defending itself, and by golly, if it has to blow up a few schools and mosques and kill a few hundered or thousand of those lowly Palestinians, then by golly, it has to do it!!

The sad part is, most of the uninformed American masses who are under the spell of AIPAC propaganda would most likely respond this way...

Frankly, one would think that there might be some issues on which the Church would have the decency and modesty not to comment. Child care might be one of them. The conduct of the Jews is another. With friends like Pius XII, the Jews need no enemies. For that matter, our current Pope has spent a good deal of time living down his membership in the Hitler Jugend. The arrogance of the Church in hectoring people outside the faith whom it oppressed and tortured for millenia is stupefying. Regardless of the appropriateness of Israel's actions, the Catholic Church is one organisation that has no moral standing to comment.

Stevens-Arroyo,

A note on linguistic accuracy: The spelling "anti-Semitism" is no longer in use. The correct spelling is "antisemitism," the term used interchangeably with anti-Jewish racism, or, simply, racism.

The term "semitic" originated with German historian August Schlözer (1781) to denote the language group that includes Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, Assyrian, etc.

In the nineteenth century it was racialized to refer to Jews. The racists among your co-religionists, beginning in Germany and France, used it in a positive sense. To be anti-Semitic was, in their view, a good thing. It remains so in the minds of many.

Since there has never been a human entity "Semite," since notion is, of course, hypostasy, reification, educated people for many years, particularly for the last twenty, spell the word "antisemitism."

This is a link to Concordat Watch, which monitors the Vatican's treaties with independent nations. You will find there material on concordats from early on through the present, along with the full and partial texts of some concordats, among them the Vatican's Concordat with the Third Reich.

This was signed by Enea Silvio Piccolomin before he became Pius XII; the concordat is still in effect.

The site contains recent condordats and accounts of other regrettable Church dealings.

http://www.concordatwatch.eu/showtopic.php?org_id=872&kb_header_id=28331

"Prophetically, the Vatican warned in 1943 that establishment of a Jewish State would cause more problems than it would solve if the new territory involved taking away the rights of Palestinians."

This is not the writing of someone who places high value on the creation of a home for 6 million Jewish people. I would not expect his ideas, then, to be very persuasive to the Israeli people.

MichaelNJ:

Execellent post! Thank you!. I wonder if you saw Mr. Arroyo's last "essay." If not, you can find it on the main page by clicking on "The Panel" and then clicking on his name. If you are new to Mr. Arroyo's more-than-occasional ignorance, manipulation,and confusion, you will gain insight when you read of his serendipitous encounter with a "young Jewish woman."

Farnaz

Response Part 2:

5. Israel’s help to Hamas, if there really was such a thing, took place in the late 70’s when Hamas was a community organization, about 10 years before it adopted its current genocidal charter and turned to terror against Israel. At that time the main perpetrator of terror was the Fatah and Israel was trying to encourage non-violent Palestinian organizations, thinking that they might provide youths with non-violent venues. And so it allowed Hamas to open some community centers in the Gaza strip. But isn’t it just like an antisemite to take an act of charity by the State of Israel and turn it against her? In any event, Hamas was not then and is not now an Anti-American organization, so again, how does that constitute a hostile act against the U.S. on the part of Israel, you idiot?

6. Finally, The glorification of Pope Pius 12 speaks volumes about Mr. Stevens-Arroyo, and I suspect that this is his true beef with Israel, not he Palestinian issue. God forbid that the Jews should dare say they were not happy with the beatification of the man who could perhaps put the brakes on the Holocaust, and chose to do nothing instead. So go ahead and make him a saint to your heart’s content, and if you feel that Pius 12 is the true embodiment of the Catholic spirit, you will find no argument here.

Response part 1:

It’s almost redundant to say that anti-Semitic screeds would be rife with factual errors, as well as prejudice of all sorts. Nevertheless it’s worth listing some of them:

1. Israel is not governed by “Jewish Law”. It’s legal system was established by secular jurists mostly refugees from Germany arriving on the eve of WW2, and is derived primarily from the British code. The laws governing marriage and divorce are based on the Halacha, that’s about it. Educate yourself, Mr. Stevens-Arroyo.

2. There is not a molecule of the Liberty affair that has not been investigated and probed ad nauseam over the years. The reason that incident does not constitute a hostile act is not any “special bond” but rather that it was established beyond a shadow of doubt that it was not a hostile act. Nevertheless, Arabs and antisemites of all stripes are attracted to it like flies to dung, which will be evident on this thread in no time at all.

3. The unarmed commercial airliner was Lybian, not American, a fact Arroyo conveniently neglects to mention so that he could present it as another hostile act against the U.S. It was shot down under similar circumstances to the to the shooting down of the Iranian Airliner by the USS Vincennes and the KAL airliner by the USSR: Approached enemy territory without identifying itself or responding to radio communications.

4. Jonathan Pollard is paying for his espionage until today, so what seems to be the problem? If anything, that affair is proof of anti-Israel bias because his punishment is identical to that of the worst spies, Like Ames and Hanssen, even though the damage he had caused was puny by comparison to theirs. Over the years there have been multiple cases of espionage against the US by Russia and China and others. If the spies are caught they are tried and punished, and the relationship with those countries continues as before, with or without a “special bond”.

captn_ahab,

My post to Ravitchn applies to you as well. What do you think?

Farnaz

RAVITCHN:

You write: "Mr. Stevens-Arroyo is not very well read about his own church and its seedy past."

This, may, in fact, be the case. I'm also afraid its "seedy past" continues into the present. Arroyo and other Catholics do not benefit from ignorance and denial of their historic anti-Jewish racism, from their failure to recognize that antisemitism is foundational to their identity.

Since there are knowledgeable people on this blog, you and I, for example, I see know reason not to inform him and to recommend books, articles, web sites, etc. Only good could come of this.

Anthony,

You write:
"There was great concern to keep the Christian shrines open and not let them become objects of partisan conflict. This was largely resolved by an agreement signed between Israel and the Vatican in 1997."

The fear was then and is now that Palestinian terrorists will destroy the shrines. One of the most significant, of course, is the Church on the site where Christians believe Christ was born.

ISRAELI JEWS DIED PROTECTING THAT SITE WHEN PALESTINIAN TERRORISTS TOOK IT OVER.

Perhaps you can tell us when Catholics will start guarding their own shrines, paying for their upkeep, etc.

Will we be hearing from the bishops on this any time soon?

More questions for the bishops to come.

YOU HIT IT RIGHT ON THE HEAD. PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW HISTORY OR JUST DO NOT CARE TO KNOW HISTORY.

I think mr. Stevens-Arroyo has good intentions; nevertheless his intentions, the Roman Church´s history is a lot different than his alice´s wonderland tales.
The church persecuted jews violently for centuries, afterwards most jews and history schollars believe that Pio XII supported Hitler´s holocaust, also in our days the church insists on sundays keeping laws which would affect jews since their religious holiday is Saturday.
He says a thruth: Jonh Paul II recognized the church´s mistakes aganist jews, however when scholars wanted to see the church´s archives about antisemitism; that pope and the current Pope kept the door for self-examination and truly repentance closed with tremenduos strenght.
Happily the catolic folks aren´t as much anti-jewish as their own church.

The way I see it, it's a political conflict between two Caesars, between Hamas and Israel, and betwen Iran and United States.

Christians should ''render unto Caesar'', which means that they should obey to whoever is in position of authority. It is either Hamas or Israel, it is never just one, never a blind punditry.

However, I understand that the Palestinians are truly oppressed, and that it is right to ask for Palestinians to be treated fairly. Jesus was not only jewish, he was also a Galilean-Palestinian type, and many Palestinians have also been Christian.

This said, it should be allowed to advocate these positions without harming Vatican-Israel relations.

Suppose you were forced to live with 1.2million people in 26sq miles of land, unable to secure water, food, electricity, education or employment for yourself or your children, without approval of the Israelis. The only avenue for them to show their frustration and get some attention from an uncaring world is sending rockets that have no explosive devices attached, into southern Israel.
That is a far cry from Israeli actions: dropping 1000/2000 ton bombs on mosques, schools, homes, schools, etc, entering Gaza and kidnapping 17 duly elected cabinet ministers, seizing individuals from their homes and taking them into captivity in Israel; sending goon squads into Gaza to attack and kill men suspected of crimes against the state of Israel. These actions are done under the proclaimation by its Prime Minister that "Israel is the only democratic state in the region."
These actions underscore Israels lack of commitment to peace with its neighbors, but rather exposes itc underlining aims: forcing the indigenous people of Palestine to leave their homes and land to the zionists of Israel.
Hitler did this to the Jews of Europe--without success, and the zionists of Israel apparently won't learn any other way.
In the end, after the loss of many men, women and children, the people of Israel will learn that if they want to enjoy peace and prosperity in their land they will have to allow others to share it with them.

This man is very ignorant! The Vatican always wanted states to be Catholic, meaning with special rights for Catholics and disabilities for non-Catholics. Also, the Vatican always opposed Zionism -- on the grounds that the Jews could not have their own nation since they were cursed by God. The Church has changed a great deal but it carries the weight of guilt about its violently anti-semitic past. Mr. Stevens-Arroyo is not very well read about his own church and its seedy past.

Suppose there was an ethnic enclave just outside the Vatican between it and Italy, but surrounded and controlled by the Italian military. Further suppose that the enclave was populated by an anti Catholic ethnic group, whose sole goal was the destruction of the Vatican and Catholicism. Finally, let's suppose that agents of that entity were firing rockets packed with high explosives indiscriminately into the Vatican without cease on a daily basis, and that they had had taken Vatican guards hostage. Finally, suppose that ethnic group demanded that the Vatican open all its entry points for free access of these people to and from Vatican city, because they claimed the Vatican had no right to its land.

What would the Vatican's response be to overwhelming Italian military action against that entity firing into Vatican City?

I wonder.....

Israel was established in 1948 by a mandate of the UN. The Arabs did not agree with the mandate and tried twice to crush Israel. Israel won both wars. Funding by Iran (since 2000) and Saudi Arabia of Palestinian terrorist groups since then has kept the region a hot bed of atrocities on both sides i.e. "an eye for an eye".

Large scale aggression by the Arabs ceased when Israel got nuclear weapons.

Iran's terror campaign extends way beyond the Israeli issue as it wishes to make Shiite Islam the world's religion. Its suicide mentality makes this Axis of Evil a significant danger to global peace and even more so if they are allowed to have nuclear weapons.

Unfortunately, nukes play the role of "peace" keepers replacing religions/social systems which should play the "pax" role but do not because of the "my god/prophet/social system is better than your god/prophet/social system" syndrome.

The irony is that Islam's commitment to world domination is founded on mythical communications from a mythical "pretty, wingie, talking thingie".
And one billion global citizens continue to be brainwashed in this significant stupidity.

To all concerned

" All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is people, politicians, and political leaders around the world either stay mum or shift the blame onto oppressed, occupied, and tormented"

What Israel is doing in the name of security onto impoverished and victimized Palestinians is a solid and ultimate State Sponsored Terrorism and same is true about India who has turned divided Kashmir into massive concentration camp on the Top of World.

As a naturalized Kashmir born American Citizen, disabled American Veteran and Forensic psychiatrist, I plead to my current president, Hon. President Bush to stop all aid to Israel and freeze the any relationship with India.

I suggest to incoming president elect, Hon. Barrack Obama to appoint outgoing president as special envoy to permanently, peacefully and amicably solve Israel-Palestinian Conflict and Hon. former President Bill Clinton to erase the line of conflict [LOC] between the divided people of Kashmir.

Yours truly,

COL. A.M.Khajawall [Ret]
Las Vegas NV USA