HOLY COW

I was wondering, do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth is God-Incarnate?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Wow, this thread sure brings out the whackos. Pretty impressive alrighty. I can't really tell if the posters:
a) are bigots
b) are selling something
c) should have their institutional internet access restricted
d) all of the above.

In any event, the argument over whether the Catholic Church is or is not an abomination matters little compared to measuring the heart of each person. Start with your own, then start throwing stones.
Ye gads, how do I get sucked into these ridiculous "discussions."

It occurs to me that part of this issue is the way that Catholics and other Christians relate to each other. There can be no denying that Catholicism was the original and in the west, effectively exclusive Christian Church until the Protestant reformation of the 1500s. All those that left the Catholic church to join Protestant churches were almost by definition forced to identify problems they saw with Catholicism to justify their reasons to change faiths. In the best cases, this discussion is held at an intellectual level, with a debate of Church doctrine and practices (i.e., the debate of justification by faith alone vs the need for action to justify faith). This is at the heart of Church Ecumenism. Unfortunately, not everyone is willing or able to discuss their faith at this level. Which brings us to the emotional arguments that frequently are seen on this board. In these cases, unfortunately, I think we see a true love of God (particularly in some Evangelicals) distorted into a violent hatred of the Catholic Church. Hopefully, at some point these people will be able to look back in a more detached way and see that the hatred is counter-productive and counter to all Christian theology and that if they are sure of their position, reason is a better tool than raw emotion to bring others to their point of view. This thinking can be extended to the Athiests on this board as well. In their case, of course, it is not love of God, but "love of Reason" that drives their rancor. In the end, however, some will reconcile themselves to the fact that Reason doesn't negate God but is actually a gift from God to help them find him. Others, unfortunately, will never take that step.

Prof. Stevens-Arroyo,

Yours, I think, is a very considered, moderate response to what I can only think of as hate speech. Perhaps it escaped Hagee's attention that the Protestants and Catholics signed a peace treaty some years back.

More importantly, his kind of rhetoric is loathsome and dangerous. As a Jewish child whose family fled from Iran, where we had lived since the twelfth century, I know where racism leads. And what he speaks is racism.

I had hoped I'd seen the end of this when we left Iran, but I did not. This man Hagee has no business preaching to anyone.

Thank you for your essay.

Farnaz

I don't suppose that this would be a decent time to point out that maybe a secular Republic ain't so bad an idea? Seems you Abrahamics got enough to work out among yourselves, here. Fifteen hundred years and still not ready for prime-time, apparently.

'The meek' would really appreciate a lot less ineffectual storming around with dangerous objects, and maybe a bit more attention on infrastructure, communication, and not-poisoning the future, so much, thanks.

Some of us still believe in that, you know.

The future, that is.

Patricia Burns,

Hmmm, a "prophetess" for profits I see as you thump anything in the mostly mythical bible to make a buck.

Mystery Babylon is a CITY (Re.18:10, Re.18:16, Re.18:18-19). It is the CITY "where also our Lord was crucified" (Re.11:8, Heb.13:12).

The mystery of Babylon the great is that it is the holy city Jerusalem which will play a dual role once the false prophet sits in the temple of God showing himself that he is God (2 Thess.2:4).

The holy city Jerusalem is the pleasant land (Dan.8:9 below); it is the faithful city which has become an harlot (Isa.1:21),

There is a curse on Jerusalem in this earth; in the new earth there will be no more curse (Re.22:3). Because there is a curse, Jerusalem will play a dual role - one: the holy city Jerusalem, and, secondly, that great city Babylon (Re.18:10).

Also note at Re.21:10 that in the new earth the holy city Jerusalem's name is complete, "that great city, the holy Jerusalem".

Revelation17:9 states that the seven heads (Re.17:3) on the scarlet colored beast are seven mountain on which the woman sits. The seven continents of the earth are the seven mountains. In the beginning, the waters of the earth covered the mountains (Ps.104:6). Today we live upon that portion of the mountains protruding from the waters.

The many waters Babylon sits upon represents peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues (Re.17:15). Therefore, Babylon's power will be worldwide and will involve all of its people.

The beast of Revelation 13:11 (the false prophet) is seen as the scarlet colored beast once his sits in that great city Babylon.

The false prophet worships a god his fathers knew not (Dan.11:38), a god of forces, that great city Babylon, and honors her with riches (Re.17:4, Re.18:16).

The horns/kings on the scarlet colored beast’s head (Re.17:16-18) play their role upon the world scene as they come against the great city Babylon and fight the battle of Armageddon.

Patricia (©) Bible Prophecy on the Web
Author of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982

JJ:

You are as Jewish as I am, which is not at all, and have never been.

What you are is a lunatic. I would suggest you gather together your various posts and co-publish them with Mary Cunningham, whose bigoted brain, frequently manifest on this blog, nicely complements your own.
...............................................

Mr. Stevens-Arroyo,

Speaking as one raised Christian, from generations of Christians, now a happy atheist, I can tell you that Christians do have too many Hagees, whom many Christians see as morally reprehensible. It is good and just for you to speak out against him.

Marc Edward,

Hate to correct anyone, Marc, but ZionismS began in 70CE, and since that, date there have been enought Zionisms, including those of the nineteenth, twentieth, and twentieth-first centuries to fill several libraries. So, when write about Zionism, please inform readers of the specific theorists and texts you are referencing.

Jews lived in and remained in Palestine long before any Muslims even existed and continued to do so up until and throughout the primarily Euro-Christian genocide of European Jews. (They were in Europe before there were Christians, by which I mean Catholics, later Protestants, but I'll leave that for another post.)

That said, Jews have as much right to their native land, which, by the way, they still don't inhabit, as the Vietnamese did when they returned again and again following foreign mainly EuroChristian conquest after conquest after conquest. They have the same rights as Tibetans, many now in exile.

Most importantly for you, Marc, they have the same rights as Mexicans FROM WHOM THE AMERI-CHRISTIANS STOLE TEXAS, CALIFORNIA, AND MUCH OF THE SOUTHWEST.

THEY HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS TO FIGHT FOR THEIR COUNTRY AS THE NATIVE AMERICANS WHOM AMERI-CHRISTIANS ARE GENOCIDING HAVE TO FIGHT FOR THEIRS.

THEY HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS THREE MILLION DEPORTED MIDDLE EASTERN JEWS HAVE.

NOW, MARC EDWARD, LET'S MOVE A LITTLE FURTHER DOWN YOUR SOMEWHAT MUDDLED ALLEY. DO PALESTINIAN CHRISTIANS HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS PALESTINIAN MUSLIMS? I ASK BECAUSE, AS YOU KNOW, THEY CONTINUE TO FLEE MUSLIM PERSECUTION, AND OFTEN THEIR FIRST STOP IS ISRAEL, WHICH, OF COURSE TAKES THEM?

ANOTHER QUESTION VIZ YOUR ALLEY: DO PALESTINIAN WOMEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIVE? I ASK BECAUSE ONE OF EVERY PALESTINIAN MURDERS IS AN HONOR KILLING?

IF YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT RIGHTS, MARC, AND I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT YOU ARE ONE OF THE GREAT HUMNITARIANS OF OUR TIME, THEN START BY WORKING ON THE RIGHTS OF MEXICAN AMERICANS AND NAIVE AMERICANS. THEN YOU CAN WORRY ABOUT HONOR KILLINGS AND PALESTINIAN CHRISTIANS. AND MANY OF US WOULD APPRECIATE YOUR VIEWS ON THE THREE MILLION MIDDLE EASTERN JEWS IN EXILE, MANY DESCENDANTS OF FAMILIES THAT GO BACK TO THE MIDDLE AGES.

WHEN YOU'RE DONE, MARC, READ ZIONISMS, AND GET BACK TO US.

AS if there is not plenty of bigotry on both sides, Mr. Arroyo. Is it still not Catholic belief that non Catholic Christians are misguided wretches and heretics. Where was your condemnation of your current Pope's statements that mean essentially that even if they were carefully chosen words.

Ahmed what about Islam's millenia and a half of compulsory conversion both by the sword and by economic persuasion along with off and on pogroms of your own?

While John McCain stood at the right hand of God's spokesman, the (far) right rotund Reverend Hagee, Senator John Cornyn stood to the left. Let's hope Cornyn's opponent will use that photo-op. Why isn't there more coverage of Phil Gramm's involvement in McCain's campaign. If McCain is listening to Gramm, the country really better wake up.

ahmed from bahrain wrote "Rev Hagee... He reminds me of Heinrich Himmler."

Maybe Hagee's attitude is just a reaction to Iran president's call to wipe out Israel from the face of the earth?

Oops, make that OBL and his henchmen too.

Ahmed,

You noted:

"Is that too much to ask for or must we keep pushing the wheel barrow of war and war mongers? Is it any wonder when given free reign to podiums these idiots bring out the worst in is their societies?"

I agree:

Hagee and the President of Iran both should be deported to Antartica for their remaining days. Hmmm, OBL and his hencemen too.

Michael D. Houst: wrote

"Rev Hagee's call to war in Iran, and his desire to advance the Final Days is a clear demonstration of a pathologically insane individual. Anyone who would rejoice in the wholescale death and destruction that would follow is clearly a agent of evil; certainly not that of a forgiving and loving god.

He reminds me of Heinrich Himmler."

Thank you for your pro-life support. Personally, I fail to see how anyone can refer to such bigots as a spiritual guide? Hate-monger is a better name for them.

I also can't see all the time and energy accorded to such bigots. Drop them like a hot brick and give space to those who preach the gospel of love, equality and sanctity of the human soul and respect for all creation.

Is that too much to ask for or must we keep pushing the wheel barrow of war and war mongers? Is it any wonder when given free reign to podiums these idiots bring out the worst in is their societies?

The major press entities have a lot to answer for giving this lot space to spread their venom.

Reality 101- The "Fems" (Flaws, errors, muck and stench) of the Major Religions

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

The muck and stench in Judaism you ask?

Belief that that the Jews are god's chosen people and its resulting consequences.
simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

The muck and stench of Catholicism you ask?

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

The muck and stench of non-Catholic Christian churches you ask?

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/profiteering" evangelists and atonement theology.

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

The muck and stench of Hinduism you ask?

The caste system and cow worship/reverence.

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, muck, stench and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

i believe that religion is given a bad name by those persons that teach hate and distrust. God is love and he who abides in love abides in God and God in him. why is it so hard for religions to understand that God is love and it is their responsibility as
christians to carry out the belief of that love by loving one another as God has directed us to. all of this misreading of the scriptures is not doing anyone any good. it is not doing God justice or his people.

It is amazing to see every body in to an argument about who is right or wrong, about Christianity, Jewish, ant-Semite, Catholic,or have any political favore, etc. etc. We can have all type of argument but the reality is we are going to face Him. (fip. 2:9-11). 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
If we all are looking for a better world, pls. make an stop in your route and think for one minutes in these verse.

I just want to be part of the one who's working to establish his kingdom to the hearth. don't be foolish Hi's name is mercy right now that is what we need the whole world is on fire we don't need to add more in to whit all this discussion that at the end wont bring any solution.

God bless all, God bless America

Prof. Stevens-Arroyo,

I agree with the gist of your article, but want to make one important correction. Senator Obama's pastor was probably NOT assigned by his denomination, as he would have been according to the Catholic/Methodist/Episcopal method of church governance. In the United Church of Christ (UCC) that Obama belongs to, in contrast, each individual congregation is in full control of its own affairs — including hiring, and occasionally firing, its clergy. My father was a UCC minister for 55 years, and I still am a UCC member.

Rev Hagee's call to war in Iran, and his desire to advance the Final Days is a clear demonstration of a pathologically insane individual. Anyone who would rejoice in the wholescale death and destruction that would follow is clearly a agent of evil; certainly not that of a forgiving and loving god.

He reminds me of Heinrich Himmler.

Because in her heyday the Holy Inquisition suppressed the Hagees, the Joveszes and other heretics who spread nothing but hatred, confusion among the simple, and destruction, the world became a better place to live.
You go MaryCunningham!

If you think that God made Hitler to initiate the Holocaust, then perhaps we hung the wrong people at Nurmberg for war crimes.

We should have hung God.

If people would stop reading the bible dumb stuff like this wouldn't come up.

If John Hagee were to have a bumpersticker it would probably read:
THE PATH TO RAPTURE IS PAVED WITH JEWS

Hagee has a special place in my vision of justice realized:

http://www.missionmeeting.org/spandau/

For every ethnic, racial, and religious group, there are bigots who despise that group. All that differs is the number of bigots and the intensity of their hate. Anti-Catholic bigotry will not disappear any sooner than any other form of bigotry. So it's not at all surprising to hear this sort of stuff from Hagee.

(I should add my belief that intense theological differences expressed crudely and intemperantly aren't really "bigotry" per se; it's just rudeness. I'm not going to call someone a bigot if he thinks my religion is a load of garbage as long as he respects me as a person and doesn't insult me personally while arguing that my faith is wrong.)

This won't affect McCain's Catholic support in the slightest. No Catholic seriously thinks that McCain shares Hagee's views. Even if he did, so what? What concerns Catholic voters is whether McCain is going to govern according to Catholic values. Someone who hates the Church is capable of governing according to Catholic teaching. Someone who loves the Church can still govern wickedly.

If you don't like McCain, now you have another reason. If you like McCain, you won't be worried that this buffoon's comments reflect McCain's views.

Anthony S-A wrote, "Unlike Senator Obama whose pastor was assigned by his denomination..." Obama CHOSE to join Wright's church. Obama's choice is far more calculated and self-serving, having been made and maintained for 20 years (so far). Needless to add, Obama's personal choice of church membership also fosters inexcusable anti-white, anti-American, anti-traditional-Christian, black racist bigotry.

Why is it always assumed that the only people possessing religious faith live in the South?Nothing could be farther from the truth because there are nuts living in every part of the country even in the North East.To generalize religious belief to only the South is a sign of mental stupidity and ignorance.

Hate to correct anyone Anne, but the founding of Israel has little to do with the Holocaust. More to the point, the Holocaust is no justification for taking lands that others had lived on for generations beyond count. American and European Jews have no more claim to Palestine than do Hong Kong Chinese or the Aztek. Jews, Christians and Muslims had been living in the area of Palestine for many centuries, and in much more peaceful conditions than in Christian Europe.

The Zionist movement started in the 19th century, no? So the "return" to Palestine had nothing to do with the Holocaust. More to the point, after WW2, wasn't any kind of massive return to Palestine (under British legal control) illegal? Western powers hardly "let" the Zionists return to Palestine - it was the Zionists who carried out many terrorist bombings to achieve their ends.

As for Hitler being God's tool, well that's just silly. Any God who'd use Hitler's tactics is hardly worthy of worship, no? Hagee is just a hate filled and very ignorant person who derives power from the ignorance and fears in his followers.

"Literalist interpretation of the Bible" has gotten American Christianity and its followers into more trouble than anything else. It has been used as the justification for slavery, preventing interracial marriage and other grievious practices.

The infuriating thing about literalist interpretation of the Bible is that millions of people - many uneducated, undereducated, or lower class - subscribe to it. And such individuals are quite vocal. The rest of us get to spend our time fighting them - whether it's school board appointments (those pushing "intelligent design" or decrying sex education) or discrimination lawsuits, more time and energy have been burned up trying to limit the effects of a simplistic way of looking at the Bible and at life.

It is not true that if something's too simple to be understood, it's false. Because so many people in this country refuse to use their skills of reason - that is, to think with the brains God presumably gave us to use - the masses go for what's easy ... even when it's baldy wrong.

McCain is not the least bit religious himself. That's why he keeps putting his foot in it and that's why the religious right does not trust him. First he calls Robertson and Falwell agents of intolerance and loses in 2000. Then he nixes that and embraces them. Then he takes it a step further and seeks the endorsements of fascists - I mean that in its true sense - like Hagee and Parsley. This is someone who clearly is out of touch with the culture and sensibilities of the American people and is groping like a blind man. If the Democrats ever elect a nominee that will become all too apparent.

McCain has really shot himself in the foot with this anti-Catholic diatribe from his "pastor" or "spiritual advisor" of whatever the guy is. Catholics are unlikely to go riot over this vile criticism of our religion, but nonetheless, McCain has really ticked off a lot of us. McCain should just stick to regular issues and keep away from religion.

Good column, Anthony. But for future reference, the last book of the Bible is called the Book of REVELATION (singular), not Revelations.

Paul & others-
Massachusetts also has very low levels of most social pathologies that characterize the "religious South". Divorce rates are lower, crime & violent crime rates are lower, drop-out rates are lower, etc.
& McCain allies like Hagee, Paisley, Falwell, Robertson make Wright look like Billy Graham.

Only conservative America could try and make this little matter about nothing into an issue for all of America. It always seems to be about them. Time for a wake-up call - a majority of America doesn't give a crap about Hagee or any of the other hate-spewing religious fake.

So go on, pick apart each others religious beliefs, none of your rants make one iota of difference in the world the rest of us live in. T sane American you all make the same noise you hear in the car with the windows down going 60mph. SWIISSHH.

So, why not consider counting sheep when conservatives get all up in arms about some remote issue no one gives a crap about.

I bowed out of religion not so long ago.
It's dramatically reduced the number of headaches I get.

Hagee et al merely graduated from the 'my dad can beat up your dad' line of thinking to 'my invisible guy in the sky can beat up your invisible guy in the sky'.

You would think that with all the shouting about nothing these guys do that they'd have lost their voices by now, but I guess humanity just isn't that lucky.

Can't we all just collectively ignore the crazies like Hagee and Robertson, etc, and have decent discussions with the normal and more rational people of faith?

Holy Cow:
Why do you copy the same hatefilled document to every thread in On Faith? If you really want to make your points and convert anyone to your point of view, wouldn't it make more sense to intellectually discuss the issue of the day.

By the way, you need to become much more educated on what you critique for your comments to be taken seriously. Let me try to help a little on your views of Mary. I assume You would agree that Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, as all Christians do. As a Christian, you would also have to accept the divinity of Jesus. If you accept both points, then Mary is the mother of God. Your confusion lies in the understanding of the mystery of the Trinity. Mary is the mother of God the son, but obviously not God the father. She also conceived through the third part of the Holy Trinity, the Holy Spirit. You must recognize that through no merit of her own (as she clearly recognized in the magnificat), she holds a unique position in history. However, this does not imply that Mary does not have merit - far from it. We believe that she lived a completely sinless life, full of humility and devotion to her son, to God and later to his disciples. It is for this, above all, that we try to emulate her and why she has the position she does among the Saints.

This is not to say that Mary wasn't judged at the moment of her death. Indeed she was and because of her sinless life and unique position in history, she was crowned Queen of heaven (it is the 5th glorious mystery of the Rosary). She intercedes for us through prayer, just as the other saints do (as part of the communion of saints). We catholics try to emulate her sinless life and devotion to her son. I see no reason that that would make God furious.

"It's a pity that everytime a person prays the rosary, He's not only doing a vain act of repetitious prayer but in so doing, he also invites the anger and fury of God."
Anger and fury?
Why doesn't this guy grow up and act like an adult?
Pretty immature attitude for the creator of the universe.

HOLY COW, your comments are out of line, and out of touch.

Mass has gay marriage and the lowest divorce rate in the nation. The states with the highest divorce rate are those in the religious south.

I was raised a Catholic because that's the church my parents went to. I eventually stopped going, but one thing I remember is how much my church insisted that people have an obligation to help the needy. I don't remember anything about teaching hate the way the evangelical religion does.

That people bring up obscure Biblical passages and insist they have to followed literally is obscene and insane.

I forget, but maybe it's Deuteronomy that says very explicitly that children who don't mind their parents must be put to death. Why is that one picked over? Why not redact the Bible if it doesn't hold true?

Hagee is waiting for the endtimes. Do you know how many times we have heard the end of the world from religious freaks? All these people should stay out of the prediction business because they truly are rotten at it. They have not got even one prediction right yet. Where are they getting their information?

Religion is so full of contradictions that is becomes impossible to reconcile things unless you completely suspend disbelief. But then, how do you know you have not done so by someone who is using that very thing for power?

That there are so many religions should be a clue that many, many are wrong. Everyone is sure theirs is correct, but that can't be true, can it?

I also want to know what Hagee, a Christian Zionist, is doing in this country. Shouldn't he be in Israel so he can be with God as He walks this earth?

According to the Bible, only 200,000 will be doing so, so he better get there fast and bring his radiation suit.

My God, the Creator, is sick to his stomach about all of you zealots. He's not so vein that he requires our unending devotion to him. You all race around condemning one group or another, when we are all His creatures.

The history of the church should be taught in church. You will find that it has committed every act that the bible says it shouldn't.

And personally, I think Fundamentalism is a completely bankrupt religion. At least the Catholics build hospitals and schools by the thousands.

The next person who hears from God a new date for the end of the world should ask him about toilet paper, because we are made in His image so He must wipe too. There must be some significance in this ritual because we are the only species that does. He should elaborate on it.

Pastor Hagee's remarks about the Holocaust have been greatly misinterpreted.

He was quoting the Prophet Jeremiah, who predicted that G-d would use many means (i.e. 'hunters') to bring the Jewish People back to their ancestral homeland of ancient Israel and Judea.

Pastor Hagee believes it is a profoundly tragic but true fact that if not for the Holocaust, there is no way such an anti-Semitic world would have allowed the Jewish People to return after a 2,000 year exile and fulfill G-d's plan for his Chosen.

Many deeply religious Jews believe the same thing.

Reading all this gives me one BIG headache one minute and uncontrollable giggles the next . Hopefully all humanity will evolve (OOPS -BAD WORD ) to the point that we will realize all this God talk is useless CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with you about Hagee. But his hate speech is small compared to Obama'a minister Wright. But the Washington Post seems to embrace Wright's hate speech.

The Vatican is the seat of Satan. I don't have to listen to Hagee to know that. It's all in the Bible. Just read it with understanding and you would know why Catholicism is a big factor or big contributor to creating the WH*RE OF BABYLON.

Just make a survey on what religion is majority in Masachusettes and California --two states which approved gay marriage. Almost all liberal states in the U.S has very high Catholic population.

***

I believe all this catholic stand against abortion and contraception is not about "holiness" but more of their true father's (the devil) catholic cycle scheme.

THE CATHOLIC CYCLE

In one third world country where population explosion has become a major problem, Catholic chapels or centers offer free operation to untie the fallopian tubes of mothers after indoctrinating them that it's a SIN.

This devilish Church invent their own doctrines so parents would produce more children despite their abject poverty. With more extra children, they are forced to raise them with no proper education and decent meals and most of all, no future.

They then teach these poor people that their government is the cause of their poverty due to corruption but lo and behold those same government personnel are usually "devout catholics".

Some revolt (with the church's help of course) which cause more poverty and this has become a "CATHOLIC CYCLE" which I presume is routinely duplicated around the world.

To escape poverty, many go abroad adding more economic pressure to their countries of destination.

Catholic countries not only over populate, they produce extortionist rebels too. Had you wondered why there are no marxist rebels in Islamic countries but there are so many in catholic countries? It's because many of their priests support that ideology. They breed fast and then kill each other fast too. WHAT A CYCLE.

There are many things this church does which is outside our scope of detection. The devil could be using a much bigger cycle that is harder to detect. Consciously or unconsciously, all catholics is part of that grand cycle.

***

Mary, The Queen Of Heaven

Many Roman Catholics , if not all, believe that Mary is the "Queen of Heaven". The idea may have originated from the fact that since Jesus came from her womb, therefore she is the "Mother of God" and henceforth the "Queen of Heaven". Even Davao City Archbishop Fernando Capalla declared in a local tv broadcast that "Mary is the Queen of Heaven". With him pronouncing it, no doubt, this is a Roman Catholic doctrine.

Many Roman Catholic beliefs are false because many of them are based on wrong presumptions. Here are the reasons why Mary is not the Mother of God.

First, God is eternal. He has no source and has no ending. God created Mary and it should remain that way. The devil wants to turn it around and voila ! God now has a mother. The Eternal God is now under the "dictates" of a "mother".

The Almighty God will judge us purely by our own merits and not by how the "mother" will intercede for us. The real question is " what is our relationship with God and God alone?" Forget about Mary. Like us she will have her own appointment with God.

In II Corinthians 5:10, Apostle Paul said, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ..." .

The phrase "we must all" pertains to him (Paul), us and certainly Mary also. As what the Parable of the Ten Virgins suggests, she too can't share her oil. It means that she cannot intercede.

Second, the Spirit of Jesus Christ existed even before Mary was born. In John 8:57-58, it says " Then said the Jews unto Him, thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am. "

In Colossians 1:17 Paul said " And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist."

Not only He was before Abraham, He was also before the existence of the universe and the creator of it as well.

To give us a glimpse of His power, Apostle John described his encounter with Jesus in Heaven in Revelation 1:16-17 " ... His countenance was as the sun shineth in His strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead."

Mary is really only one of the children of God and to distort this order by making her the Mother of God is just pure blasphemy.

This "Queen of Heaven" Doctrine is really not new. In the time of the prophet Jeremiah, the people of Israel worshipped her. In Jeremiah 7:18, God said " The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger."

In verse 20, He continues "... behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place..."

Thirdly, Jesus never called Mary as mother. He called her "woman". (John 2:4 , John 19:26)
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Surely, there must be a reason why He didn't call her mother and that is simply because she is not His mother. In one instance, when somebody told Jesus that His mother was looking for Him, He insultingly replied, " Who is my mother? " (Matthew 12:48)

I wonder how many times the Lord will have to ask this question for people to wake up from their trance. It's a pity that everytime a person prays the rosary, He's not only doing a vain act of repetitious prayer but in so doing, he also invites the anger and fury of God. If they'll finally meet God face to face, I doubt if they will hear that question again if they will mention her name in His presence or would it be the painful parting words "depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire". I hope not, and I hope they will listen.

I've watched Hagee(doesn't deserve the Rev. title) on TV as a source of great amusement. This pudgy and obese character seems to have a "Napoleon complex" about him - ranting, raving his heavy body across the pulpit. He's short, fat and grossly loud! There's nothing Christian about him, because all he spouts is venom and venom only. His sermons lack the love that Christ embodied. Hate and anger flow copiously from his sermons. Why worry about this pest? Also, the same with that sweaty little actor - Rod Parsley.

Pastor Hagee's notion that God appointed Hitler to get the Jews into Palestine sounds crazy indeed. But as Richard Rubenstein observed in his book of several decades ago, After Auschwitz, if you believe in a God who drives history as the Bible seems to teach then Hitler must have at the very least have been allowed to do his work by God. For this reason Rubenstein abandoned belief in such a God. As we all should. Then Hagee could be laughed out of court. Until then Hagee's nonsense is totally Judaeo-Christian. There are ultra orthodox Jewish groups who believe the Holocaust was sent by God to punish secularism among Jews. Many Christians also believe such nonsense. Hagee is indeed a fool but so are all bible-thumping evangelicals.

As a Regular Churchgoer, Sidesman and past Church Warden. I find the aspect of Religon mentioned here disgusting.
Where does the Christian tenet of thou shall not kill let alone love thy neighbour fit in with this Pastor's logic?
This fanaticim has filled thousands of mass graves by persons egged on by attitudes such as this. This is followed by the breakdown of mental health of those who are forced to clear up the mess caused.

Get out of your pulpit Hagee and practice your calling properly and fully amongst the Refugee Camps of the World

Christianity doesn't "fail the mission", Christians fail to embrace the ground rules that Christianity sets forth. This should come as no suprise, for we know that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)

golden rule never mix politics with religion or vice versa john hagee should have known better when his own bible incourage its own christian believers not to give pearls before swine for they dont know the value of it meaning unbelievers will think or say you are crazy which this is what it boils down into

RH:

Thing is the nationalistic, bellicose type of Hagee anti-Catholicism (the anti-papism of the nationalist right)is pretty much banned. Oh, it's underground alright, but can't really gain much headway in a multi-cultural society. Look at what happened in Northern Ireland: a war, massive emigration and a province far too dependant on subsidies from the rest of Britain (who would dearly like it to sink into the sea). Not a good example of where religious apartheid leads.

OTOH the anti-Catholicism of the Jacobites and their descendants--liberal whigs and communists--is pervasive. Just take a look at any of the "secularists" on the blog, or, even better, at the athiests regulars. In the echalons of higher educations, esp. lit and the "ologies", atheism is almost a requirement. The most vicious anti-Catholicism I encountered here was from two teachers of English--one at high school, one at university. Teachers! And--even worse--the uni teacher mentioned about half her students were Catholics. I found that fact terrible to grasp. The type of prejudice she manifested online was deep rooted, what must her Catholic students take from her?

Now IMO this intellectual, left wing type of anti-Catholicism is what the Catholic League was formed to combat, and is far more dangerous that Hagee. Donohoe is fulfilling an important need. I'm not happy that Prof. A-S sees it necessary to attack him.

Mary Cunningham,

Well done, on both your posts. They seem actually to have blocked Jacob J and his nonsense parade. Your summary of the two sorts of anti-Catholicism is very well done. The second sort, that you only briefly summarize, is rooted in Continental Freemasonry, ultimately - whereas the first kind that you summarize often partners with but isn't historically as essential to Scottish-rite Freemasonry.

Roy (or anybody),

You listed "Donahue, O'Reilly, Hannity, Novak and Buchanan," as Catholic bigots. I am not here trying to be argumentative, but only wondering if you would cite a statement by any of them to that effect. I'm interested because I don't know much about them. Really, I am more interested in Donahue (since he's the topic of the day), Novak or Buchanan. Also, those three are primarily literary commentators who appear on television, rather than the other two who are primarily television pundits that publish what pass for books. Do you mean only that they are really Catholic and/or really "conservative"? I am not a great fan of any of them, nor do I dislike any of them in particular. For now I am just trying to gain a better-informed opinion of them.

“On Faith” is one of a number of blogs I’ve visited here and in England. The anti-Catholic sentiment on all (except, of course, the one Catholic blog where nastier are always blocked) is of two types. Prof Stevens-Arroyo is writing about the first, older variety.

Scots-Irish Anti-papism

The older, more familiar kind, is represented by Rev. (oh yes! Very reverend) Hagee and, probably, in some small part, John McCain. One can call this the “No Popery” “No Papacy” variety. Although it was endemic in the cities of England during the 17th and 18th centuries (the last great anti-Catholic riot, the Gordon Riots, in London was in 1788) it assumed virulent proportions in Northern Ireland. Here the native Catholic Irish were ethnically cleansed, expelled from Ulster and sent westward, in effect given a choice of “To hell or Connaught”. They were replaced with loyal Presbyterians from Scotland, in fact, Ulster was probably the first member of the British Empire. These new settlers called themselves “Scotch-Irish” and many later emigrated to the US, especially to Virginia and Appalachia and became a particularly bellicose, nativistic type of American. The best example is Andrew Jackson, during whose Presidency Amerindians were ethnically cleansed from the entire eastern part of the US in pretty much the same fashion as the Catholic Irish had been cleansed from Ulster, to hell or Oklahoma I guess.

When the Catholic Irish began arriving in great numbers during the Great Famine years of the 1840s, nativists responded by forming a political party and “No Popery” riots ensued in the US very similar to earlier anti-papist riots in England.

This type of anti-Catholicism is still very much extant in Northern Ireland where, until ten years ago, a very nasty religious war betw. Catholic Gaels and Protestant settlers raged. You can see it here in the postings of Holy Cow/Canyon Shearer/Spiderman2. In the UK I can always tell when a northern Irish protestant comes in. The rhetoric changes subtly. The attack against Catholics becomes more personal: Catholics are “docile”, “priest- ridden”, “ignorant”, live in an “enclosed world”. The Church is evil, the pope gives a Nazi salute surreptitiously. This is the Hagee brand of anti-Catholicism.

I would say that this nativist streak is what the Professor despises, seeing as its ire is directed primarily against Catholic Latinos. For the life of me, I don’t see what the Donohoes and O’Reillys are doing making peace with the Hagees of this world. I remain convinced they are as firmly, viscerally, even viciously anti-papist as the Ulster Unionists ever were. And that type of anti-Catholicism exists today.

The second type of anti-Catholicism comes from atheists like Candide and Jacob Jovesz. This often joins forces with Scotch-Irish anti-papism, but it’s intellectual antecedents are the Jacobins of the French Revolution and the great liberal whigs of the 19th century. The greatest intellectual opponent of these movements was Edmund Burke, an Irishman of mixed religious background (mother & wife Catholic, father Protestant, quite usual in Ireland of his time because Catholics could not inherit nor go to university). I’ll talk about that another time. A little anti-papist bile goes a long way.

If McCain is elected (fortuately, a long shot at this point), he will have to return the political favor to Hagee - probably with an ambassadorial appointment to some poor third world country that, frankly, can probably do without his services.

We can do this instead: The GOP has been intent on abolishing the Department of Education for the last decade. This will be an excellent opportunity to do away with the "public good" nonsense embodied in public education (another one of Satan's tools, no doubt) and really reward the Christian Right for a change.

How about replacing DOE with "Secretary of End Times" or "Advisor for Apocolyptic Affairs"?

Catholics are not without their own bigots. Consider Donahue, O'Reilly, Hannity, Novak and Buchanan.

Subject: offensive comment about Hagee and the
To: onfaith@washingtonpost.com

Comment number one by a well known spammer Jacob Jovesz who spams and spouts with impunity, anti-Catholic mostly from a Jewish perspective.

Why can't you block this pest?

Regards