Comments (94)

wild boars

“for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”

“Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature”
“they cast out devils”
“They shall take up serpents”
“they drink any deadly thing”
“they shall lay hands on the sick”

“Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also.”
“Woe unto you also, ye lawyers!”
“touch not the burdens with one of your fingers”
“put his fingers into his ears, and he spit, and touched his tongue;”
“He hath done all things well: he maketh both the deaf to hear, and the dumb to speak.”
“But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.”
“his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not”
“And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.”
“Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.”
“these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word”
“these are they which are sown on good ground”
“My meat is to do the will of him that sent me”
“both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.”
“One soweth, and another reapeth.”
“for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”
“Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature”
“they cast out devils”
“They shall take up serpents”
“they drink any deadly thing”
“they shall lay hands on the sick”

“But the sons of Belial shall be all of them as thorns thrust away”
“because they cannot be taken with hands:”

“these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word”
“these are they which are sown on good ground”

“My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins.”
“My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.”
“For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
“But if I with the finger of God”
“smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.”

And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

“Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.”
“My name is Legion: for we are many.”
“a great herd of swine feeding”
“Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.”

Caesarea It was built by Herod the Great (B.C. 10), who named it after Caesar Augustus, hence called Caesarea Sebaste. It was the great Gentile city of Palestine. Here Cornelius the centurion was converted through the instrumentality of Peter and thus for the first time the door of faith was opened to the Gentiles. It still retains its ancient name Kaiseriyeh, but is now desolate. "The present inhabitants of the ruins are snakes, scorpions, lizards, wild boars, and jackals." It is described as the most desolate city of all Palestine. Do you see “the door of faith was opened to the Gentiles” “And David prepared iron in abundance for the nails for the doors of the gates, and for the joinings; and brass in abundance without weight;” Caesarea= Sisera Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. Sisera was the captain of Jabin's army.

“these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word”
“these are they which are sown on good ground”

"The present inhabitants of the ruins are snakes, scorpions, lizards, wild boars, and jackals."

snakes
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

scorpions
“My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.”

lizards

wild boars
“Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.”
“My name is Legion: for we are many.”
“a great herd of swine feeding”
“Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.”

Jackals
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

“yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.”
“Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also.”

Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

the dog is turned to his own vomit again
the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire

Alpha and Omega

Quoting “God has had His Plan since before creation and it is unfolding before our very eyes.”

“the anointed of the God of Jacob”
But the sons of Belial shall be all of them as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands:
But the man that shall touch them must be fenced with iron and the staff of a spear; and they shall be utterly burned with fire in the same place.

Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain.
Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.
But the sons of Belial shall be all of them as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands:
But the man that shall touch them must be fenced with iron and the staff of a spear; and they shall be utterly burned with fire in the same place.

“he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain.”

They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.
Bless, Lord, his substance, and accept the work of his hands; smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.

“smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.”

And Rehoboam went to Shechem: for all Israel were come to Shechem to make him king.
And it came to pass, when Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who was yet in Egypt, heard of it, (for he was fled from the presence of king Solomon, and Jeroboam dwelt in Egypt;)
That they sent and called him. And Jeroboam and all the congregation of Israel came, and spake unto Rehoboam, saying,
Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore make thou the grievous service of thy father, and his heavy yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee.
And he said unto them, Depart yet for three days, then come again to me. And the people departed.
And king Rehoboam consulted with the old men, that stood before Solomon his father while he yet lived, and said, How do ye advise that I may answer this people?
And they spake unto him, saying, If thou wilt be a servant unto this people this day, and wilt serve them, and answer them, and speak good words to them, then they will be thy servants for ever.
But he forsook the counsel of the old men, which they had given him, and consulted with the young men that were grown up with him, and which stood before him:
And he said unto them, What counsel give ye that we may answer this people, who have spoken to me, saying, Make the yoke which thy father did put upon us lighter?
And the young men that were grown up with him spake unto him, saying, Thus shalt thou speak unto this people that spake unto thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it lighter unto us; thus shalt thou say unto them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins.
And now whereas my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke: my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.
So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam the third day, as the king had appointed, saying, Come to me again the third day.
And the king answered the people roughly, and forsook the old men's counsel that they gave him;
And spake to them after the counsel of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

“And Rehoboam went to Shechem: for all Israel were come to Shechem to make him king.”
“If thou wilt be a servant unto this people this day, and wilt serve them, and answer them, and speak good words to them, then they will be thy servants for ever.”
“My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins.”
“My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.”

Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!”
“I will ascend into heaven”
“I will exalt my throne above the stars of God”
“I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation”
“in the sides of the north:”
“I will ascend above the heights of the clouds”
“I will be like the most High”
“Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

“For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

“But if I with the finger of God”

Solomon
“he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain.”

“smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.”

“I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;”

Son of David
“I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven”
Solomon
“as the sand which is upon the sea shore”
Rehoboam
“thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies”

“And Rehoboam went to Shechem: for all Israel were come to Shechem to make him king.”
“If thou wilt be a servant unto this people this day, and wilt serve them, and answer them, and speak good words to them, then they will be thy servants for ever.”
“My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins.”
“My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.”

“For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
“But if I with the finger of God”

“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!”

“I will ascend into heaven”
“I will exalt my throne above the stars of God”
“I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation”
“in the sides of the north:”
“I will ascend above the heights of the clouds”
“I will be like the most High”
“Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”

I am Alpha and Omega
the beginning and the end
the first and the last.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

“My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins.”
“My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.”
“For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
“But if I with the finger of God”
“smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.”

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

“I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last”
“his feet like unto fine brass”
“they burned in a furnace”
“out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword”
“and have the keys of hell and of death.”
“smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.”

Rehoboam
“thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies”

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

“My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins.”
“My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.”
“For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
“But if I with the finger of God”

“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!”

“I will ascend into heaven”
“I will exalt my throne above the stars of God”
“I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation”
“in the sides of the north:”
“I will ascend above the heights of the clouds”
“I will be like the most High”
“Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”

And again, departing from the coasts of Tyre and Sidon, he came unto the sea of Galilee, through the midst of the coasts of Decapolis.
And they bring unto him one that was deaf, and had an impediment in his speech; and they beseech him to put his hand upon him.
And he took him aside from the multitude, and put his fingers into his ears, and he spit, and touched his tongue;
And looking up to heaven, he sighed, and saith unto him, Ephphatha, that is, Be opened.
And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain.
And he charged them that they should tell no man: but the more he charged them, so much the more a great deal they published it;
And were beyond measure astonished, saying, He hath done all things well: he maketh both the deaf to hear, and the dumb to speak.

“put his fingers into his ears, and he spit, and touched his tongue;”
“He hath done all things well: he maketh both the deaf to hear, and the dumb to speak.”

Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also.
And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

“Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also.”
“Woe unto you also, ye lawyers!”
“touch not the burdens with one of your fingers”

But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

“But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.”

This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

“his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not”
“And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.”
“Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.”

And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?
For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

“these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word”
“these are they which are sown on good ground”

Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.

“My meat is to do the will of him that sent me”
“both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.”
“One soweth, and another reapeth.”

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

“for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

“Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature”
“they cast out devils”
“They shall take up serpents”
“they drink any deadly thing”
“they shall lay hands on the sick”

“for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”
“Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature”
“they cast out devils”
“They shall take up serpents”
“they drink any deadly thing”
“they shall lay hands on the sick”

Thomas Baum said
I pray for God's Will what other people do is up to them

“these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word”
“these are they which are sown on good ground”

“For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
“But if I with the finger of God”

Your god gave you the royal finger

HAROLD

The Fear of the Lord is Reverence and Awe of God, that is what it says and that is how I look at it. You say that the Fear of the Lord is to hate evil.

I suppose that some might wish to approach things out of hatred but I would rather approach things, or at least try to approach things with the Essence of God which is Love since God is a Being of Love, Pure Love.

God has a Plan, which is referred to as the Mysterious Plan of God and God has had His Plan since before creation and it is unfolding before our very eyes.

It says in the bible that it is God's Will that ALL BE SAVED and when the original Apostles asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, part of it was: "Thy Will Be Done", I pray for God's Will what other people do is up to them.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas Baum stated "I suppose what one has in his heart is what one see with."

You are a blind, deaf, heartless,soulless sinner creature.

"I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication"
"I have hallowed this house"
"to put my name there for ever"
"mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually"

“Ye that love the Lord, hate evil”
“The fear of the Lord is to hate evil”

Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.

"nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous"
"the way of the ungodly shall perish."
"Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them"

Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; and justifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.

"justifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness."

Whereupon the princes of Israel and the king humbled themselves; and they said, The Lord is righteous.

"The Lord is righteous."

That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place.

"That thine eyes may be open toward this house"
"My name shall be there"

And the Lord said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

"The Lord is righteous."
"That thine eyes may be open toward this house"
"My name shall be there"

"I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication"
"I have hallowed this house"
"to put my name there for ever"
"mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually"

"For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous"
"his delight is in the law of the Lord"
“Ye that love the Lord, hate evil”
“The fear of the Lord is to hate evil”

HAROLD

I suppose what one has in his heart is what one see with.

In the bible where it says that God Loved Jacob but hated Esau, well in the semitic usage, what it means is: God Loved Jacob more and God Loved Esau less but if someone would care to use Divine Math if you multiply Loving more and Loving less by INFINITE LOVE then what would that someone come up with?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

he that hateth reproof shall die.

Thomas Baum stated
“Jesus never taught hatred and for that matter”

He never taught

Good and upright is the Lord: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.
For thy name's sake, O Lord, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.
What man is he that feareth the Lord? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.

My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O Lord; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

“thou hatest all workers of iniquity”

The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

“him that loveth violence his soul hateth”

Judge me, O Lord; for I have walked in mine integrity: I have trusted also in the Lord; therefore I shall not slide.
Examine me, O Lord, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.
For thy lovingkindness is before mine eyes: and I have walked in thy truth.
I have not sat with vain persons, neither will I go in with dissemblers.
I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.

“I have hated the congregation of evil doers”

Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O Lord God of truth.
I have hated them that regard lying vanities: but I trust in the Lord.

“I have hated them that regard lying vanities”

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

“hatest wickedness”

Zion heard, and was glad; and the daughters of Judah rejoiced because of thy judgments, O Lord.
For thou, Lord, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.
Ye that love the Lord, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.
Rejoice in the Lord, ye righteous; and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.

“Ye that love the Lord, hate evil”

I will sing of mercy and judgment: unto thee, O Lord, will I sing.
I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.
I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.
A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked person.

“I hate the work of them that turn aside”

Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart.
I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end.
I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.
Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.

“I hate vain thoughts”

I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.
I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.
Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments.
Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
Lord, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.
My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.
I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.

“I hate and abhor lying”

Woe is me, that I sojourn in Mesech, that I dwell in the tents of Kedar!
My soul hath long dwelt with him that hateth peace.
I am for peace: but when I speak, they are for war.

“him that hateth peace”

Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

“Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee?”
“I hate them with perfect hatred:”

Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:

“fools hate knowledge”
“For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord”

These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
Bind them continually upon thine heart, and tie them about thy neck.

“These six things doth the Lord hate”

Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

“The fear of the Lord is to hate evil”

Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.
A good man obtaineth favour of the Lord: but a man of wicked devices will he condemn.
A man shall not be established by wickedness: but the root of the righteous shall not be moved.

“he that hateth reproof is brutish”

A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame.
Righteousness keepeth him that is upright in the way: but wickedness overthroweth the sinner.
There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches.
The ransom of a man's life are his riches: but the poor heareth not rebuke.
The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.

“A righteous man hateth lying”

The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.
A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.
He that is soon angry dealeth foolishly: and a man of wicked devices is hated.
The simple inherit folly: but the prudent are crowned with knowledge.

“a man of wicked devices is hated”

Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.
Hell and destruction are before the Lord: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
A scorner loveth not one that reproveth him: neither will he go unto the wise.

“he that hateth reproof shall die.”

“thou hatest all workers of iniquity”
“him that loveth violence his soul hateth”
“I have hated the congregation of evil doers”
“I have hated them that regard lying vanities”
“hatest wickedness”
“Ye that love the Lord, hate evil”
“I hate the work of them that turn aside”
“I hate vain thoughts”
“I hate and abhor lying”
“him that hateth peace”
“Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee?”
“I hate them with perfect hatred:”
“fools hate knowledge”
“For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord”
“These six things doth the Lord hate”
“The fear of the Lord is to hate evil”
“he that hateth reproof is brutish”
“A righteous man hateth lying”
“a man of wicked devices is hated”
“he that hateth reproof shall die.”

HOLY COW

Jesus never taught hatred and for that matter, He didn't teach tolerance either, He taught Love and considering that God is LOVE, He was not only a messenger but He is also the MESSAGE.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Soja,

I agree with everything you wrote in your last post. It is beautiful, and matches my experience and the experience of my priest-friends.

Especially the part about the intensity and amount of prayer required to live a celibate life happily. The only thing I disagree with is your commonsense (and perhaps often true, in a sense) observation that parish priests oftentimes don't have opportunity for such a prayer life. I disagree there, following the advice of St. Francis de Sales. He advised everyone to spend 1/2 hour daily in mental prayer, except for the very busy, whom he advised to spend in prayer one full hour daily.

That hour can seem like a waste, and that sense of wastage is what makes many people, especially busy Americans, exclude prayer altogether from their day. "I'm just to busy to pray." Making ourselves spend time, as substantial an amount of time as our real duties permit, in prayer - that's a good stopgap against Pelagianism, the belief that we can and must save the world. Ultimately, wasting time with Jesus is an act of faith that He will still do His thing even if we stop doing anything.

I myself have something of that experience. The days when I spend an hour, or at least what I genuinely can, in mental prayer - those are by far my most effective, productive, and joyful. They are also the ones in which I am personally least likely to be lonely. I lead a fairly active lifestyle - visiting family, friends, volunteering, exercising, full-time job, hiking, reading, lest anyone thing I'm a hermit.

Lol. The question then is, why do I pray so little? Ahhh... That's the question. Because I always want to be "all grown up" and "do it on my own."

I'll copy this post elsewhere, to make sure you find it, Soja. I know a little about the S-M Catholic Church in India, and would like to learn more. My email is withouthavingseen at gmail.com if you get a chance.

God bless.

I must say this has been a very good thread. Lots of open discussion about catholicism and very little vitriole from the usual parties.

Soja,
I think that most of the anti-catholic sentiment on this site is generated by just a few very active participants. Most of them are atheists, but there are also a couple of Protestants, the primary one being Spiderman2, who answers to anonymous and I think also Holy Cow, since the arguements put forward are consistent. I often wonder what they expect to gain by all the hatred. It seems to me that the hatred is counter productive to bringing neutral parties to their point of view.

A christian teaches people not to believe in lies. This church is built in lies. Be ready Baum for you will pay for your own lies, not only your church's lies.

This is not hatred for catholics who are blinded. this is hatred for the lies the church teaces.

Unless people listen, they cannot hear.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Mary

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions. On a final note on this thread, my thoughts on anti-Catholic sentiments on this forum expressed by some bloggers: it is possible that the average blogger on this Forum does not represent the average American. My guess is that the Pope's visit to the US did immense good - it helped dispel some myths about the Catholic Church and its stand as a Christian denomination. Seeing the Pope in person, and the Pope's attempt to build bridges with other Christian denominations and religions also opened the hearts of Americans.

And last but not the least the openness and acceptance of the Pope by the Panelists on this forum helped to calm many of the otherwise vitriolic anti-Catholics.

I believe that the first task in inter-religious dialogue is unity with other Christians. No matter what the differences in minor points all Christians believe in the divinity of Jesus and His atoning work to save human beings from their sins, and give them eternal life. We need to focus on what we share in common and build bridges of love based on that.

My very best wishes to you.

Soja

Holy Cow whatever you are a Christian you are not for you spew a hatred unworthy of a Christian.

Thomas Baum: wrote "HOLY COW, Actually I used to believe that the Eucharist is Jesus, but now I know it because the Holy Spirit revealed it to me."

Actually, the cow said so that it is holy. Catholicsim is the church of lies. No bread is holy. That bread becomes holy if you give it to the poor without strings attached.

Ryan

My comments regarding Eastern Orthodox practice is because I’m originally a member of the Syro-Malabar Church in Kerala, receiving the Sacraments of Baptism, First Holy Communion and Confirmation in it. (Google should provide you with links that explains the unique history and culture of the Church.) But I have been attending the Latin Rite Roman Catholic Church from the time I was about fifteen, because I had no access to the Syro-Malabar Church, and the Syro-Malabar Church is in communion with the Roman Catholic Church. So I’m familiar with both traditions and I feel perfectly at home in the Latin rite tradition.

I was only arguing for an option of marriage to be introduced for the diocesan priests. When a young man spends his training period in a seminary, he is fired with idealism, has the support of a community on a daily basis, is mentored intensely… But life in a parish is a different story and lifelong can be a really long time. The most intense personal relationships and ‘adoption’ by friends and families cannot be a substitute for the one-to-one physical and emotional intimacy in a lifelong companionship. Very few people can survive without such support when they are out on their own in a parish. That is not to say it is impossible, but the challenges of celibacy is much greater if one does not have a spiritually supportive community on a daily basis that lives by the same principles.

Jesus had a band of twelve disciples with Him all the time and He did not spend time alone with any woman. Jesus spent time alone in prayer before His day's work began and after it ended for the day. Those who are obsessed with the sex life of Jesus are probably not aware of that. Besides Jesus had only three years to teach all He could and He was crucified at a very young age, thirty three.

An intensive prayer life is essential for remaining faithful to the vow of celibacy if a Catholic feels called to it, but a parish priest is simply too busy to invest much time in prayer; a parish priest does not live by the rules of a contemplative order.

One has an opportunity to test one’s ability to remain celibate only when one is tempted. The training period in the seminary is a time of preparation, but the testing happens only when the priest begins to interact with the society on a regular basis in a parish. Faithfulness to the vow of celibacy happens one temptation at a time, and it cannot be done in advance for a lifetime while in the seminary. Sure a thorough sex education, deep self knowledge and tools to identify and deal with temptation helps, but it is no guarantee of how each person will exercise their free will in a given situation in real life.

At thirty you are still extremely young. Wait till you are forty or fifty or sixty when the additional loneliness of age makes the longing for companionship stronger. Of course it helps to have deeply meaningful platonic relationships with members of the opposite sex, but such relationship is not meant to be a substitute for a partner or sexual relationship, if one feels incomplete without it.

Sure, the modern pressure to define oneself by the number of sexual partners, their youth, physical beauty and measurements, or number of orgasms one has had, is grotesque. But the need for one sexual partner and life companion is legitimate and that is what is being discussed here in the context of optional marriage for diocesan priests.

It must be mentioned in the context of Hinduism that Pujaris (temple priests) are married, family men belonging to the Brahmin caste (the highest caste). Priesthood is a family profession and Brahmins are born into their caste and usually trained by the father Pujari. There is no such thing as a lower caste person becoming a temple priest by attending a Hindu equivalent of a seminary.

Vivekananda, who renounced the world in search of God is a Sannyasi, someone who has renounced the world, including his caste. Sannyasis are sought out for their spiritual wisdom while temple priests who live in society as family men who conduct religious services (Pooja), marriage etc.

An Oriental Church returns to unity
choosing priestly celibacy

Benedict Varghese Gregorios Thangalathil

Archbishop of Trivandrum (Syro-Malankara)

...

In India, among the Orientals separated from the Catholic Church, there has been no uniformity in the observance of priestly celibacy. However, bishops have always been celibate. It is certain that celibate priests existed among the Syrians before the schism took place and that such priests were held in great honour by the people. Moreover, remarriage was not allowed. Married priests, among the Orthodox, were to keep sexual abstinence during the period of celebrating the Holy Mysteries. Since in the Catholic Church daily celebration of the Holy Qurbana is customary, it is most appropriate, according to the sense of the faithful, that the Malankara Catholic priests practise perpetual abstinence...

It seems quite appropriate here to recall the sensitivity of the people of India regarding celibacy in general arid celibacy of priests in particular. In India, renunciation of worldly pleasures is the hallmark of a person of God. A celibate Brahmachari is one who lives and moves in Brahman (God). The great spiritual leader of modern India, Swami Vivekananda, said: «Without chastity, there can be no spiritual strength. The spiritual leaders of men have been very continent and this is what gave them power.» Priestly celibacy is quite in keeping with the spiritual ethos of India. Mahatma Gandhi, whom Pope John Paul II acknowledged as «a symbol of the highest qualities and values of the Indian people, and is admired in every country of the world», said: «Celibacy is a great help, inasmuch as it enables one to lead a life of full surrender to God... Protestantism did many good things, but one of its few evils was that it ridiculed celibacy. It is celibacy that has kept Catholicism green up to the present day.»

If the non-Christians do not fail to see the advantage of celibacy for the good of religion and society, for a Christian, however, the motives for celibacy are much more deep and the benefits are much more lofty. Jesus, who lived a virgin life and exhorted his close followers to leave all, including marriage and family attachments, is the ultimate inspiration and the most exalted model of perfect renunciation. «If any man comes to me without hating his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, yes, and his own life too, he cannot be my disciple» (Lk 14:26).

It is true that in the early Church, celibacy was not imposed as a necessary condition for discipleship, even upon those who were to enter the sacred ministry...

Please add h t t p and w w w to view the link:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_oriental_en.html

Thus Orthodox tradition and practice honour and respect the celibacy of priests and praise their service in the body of the Church; at the same time, they honour and respect the married clergy since, they too, serve the same sacrament of the Church and salvation. The Orthodox Church thus accepts these two forms of service equally and leaves the choice of which it is to be to the individual member, in accordance with his own vocation and particular charisms. For pastoral reasons however, the Church has favoured the institution of celibacy for the order of bishops, and these are chosen exclusively from the celibate priesthood...

This positive attitude on the part of the Eastern Church is clearly seen in canon 3 of the Council in Trullo, which underscores the need to make «pure and blameless ministers, worthy of the spiritual sacrifice of the Great God at once Victim and Priest, out of all those inscribed in the ranks of the clergy and through whom the graces of the sacraments pass to men, and the need to purge them of the filthiness of their illicit marriages; since, however, those of the most holy Roman Church propose to follow the discipline very strictly, while those of this imperial and God-protected city prefer the rule of humanity and indulgence, we have fused the two tendencies into one, lest mildness degenerate into licentiousness or austerity into bitterness...

With regard to monks, who by virtue of the religious tonsure may not marry, the possibility is suggested that they may enter into marriage if, having resigned their religious identity whether willingly or unwillingly in the case of force majeure, they have been reduced to the lay state...

------by Damaskinos Papandreou
Orthodox Metropolitan of Switzerland

Please add h t t p and w w w to view:

orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/misc/damaskinos_celibacy.htm

Soja,

But who's forcing anybody into seminaries, let alone into vows of celibacy?

Your comment shows your infamiliarity with the modern, especially the post-scandal, seminary system. One of its major emphases is driving home to the men there the meaning, challenges, joys, and means of celibacy. Anybody who gets himself ordained after 6 years (YEARS!) of residential, full-time, year-round training that is geared toward celibacy and says that he didn't know what he was getting into can only have been avoiding the entire process, deliberately or subconsciously. There isn't more that can be humanly done to prepare the men and to help them make a decision. My seminary, for instance, had literally zero-pressure, the constant refrain being, "If you don't feel you can manage celibacy, or that God hasn't that in store for you, then you are free to go, no harm, no foul." To make the point, most dioceses and seminaries don't require tuition payments or loans of any sort from their seminarians. The seminarians are literally free to leave at any time.

As for myself, I don't know whether I am called to live celibately lifelong, either under vows or as a matter of fact. That is my condition now, as an unmarried observant Christian, and I am as long-term happy as I expect anyone to be on this side of heaven. While I do feel lonely at times, I hardly feel my lack of a spouse to be a burden. I know far more married couples who feel their actual spouse to be a burden or a "ball and chain" to use America's favorite term of endearment. Loneliness can be resolved in intimate, chaste friendships, and physical energy - I am thirty, so I still have plenty - can be channeled into a number of productive, nongenital outlets. I am not urging upon anyone what I am unwilling to endure myself; and I am hardly trying to force anyone into a chastity belt.

The modern world's doubt about a celibate clergy, all the (very recent) theories about Jesus' supposed spouses, and the rest of it results from a loss of personal self-mastery and healthy chastity. We're in a paradoxical conundrum in the West. We put a great deal of hope in the ability of sexuality (as such) to make us happy, just as we are beginning to get most jaded about the possibility of enduring love (as evinced by the delay in marriages, the divorce rate, etc. all previously noted). We are literally coming to see an organism as the key to happiness, and, that failing, we are coming to despair.

A happy celibate or religious, or for that matter a happy, monogamous marriage open to new children - either one of those absolutely stands in the face of the contemporary conundrum by proposing a path to happiness other than the orgasm.

Lastly, Soja, you are mistaken about Eastern Orthodox priests. They do not marry. Married men may become Eastern Orthodox priests, but once ordained, they may no longer contract marriage, and if widowed, may not remarry. In any event, because nobody here (least of all myself) has argued that married men are UNABLE to become priests (but only that they are generally, in the Latin Church, prevented from doing so), the fact of married clergy in the East isn't entirely germaine.

Soja,

The Church of England is a national church, really a branch of Lutheranism. Henry VIII was kind of a reverse Robin Hood, taking from the poor to give to the rich (his nobles, cronies and anyone else he wanted to pay off). For an excellent of what happened order "The Reformation" (at £1.95) from the Catholic Truth Society here. (Just add www).

cts-online.org.uk/acatalog/info_H505.html

Ryan,

Alas no time to go into high Anglicanism vs low. But most of the Anglo-Catholics have become Roman. And very high calibre they are indeed.

Best to all

Currently the Episcopal/Anglican church in America is where Unitarians take communion from Catholics.

It's at the heart of the modernity debate, and personally I'd like to see it remake itself along the lines of Spong that Christianity has some good ideas, but its members are just too educated to actually believe the symbolism as truth.

Ryan Haber

I wonder about your dedication to celibacy for other priests! Don't you think that it is not fair to impose a burden on any other person that they cannot carry? Celibacy may be your ideal for a priest, but not everybody needs to share your view. It is unkind to force it on others.

Priests in Eastern Orthodox Christian traditions still marry and they always have.

I know there are some who live in comfort and luxury and hear a call for others to go out and be missionaries in places they would never dream of going themselves.

God speaks directly to people when He calls them for special purposes. If the calling somebody else feels does not resonate with the person they feel it is meant for, the person hearing the call on somebody else's behalf is probably trying to evade God's call to them. At least that is my view.

"They have much to teach the Catholic Church. The wife of one Baptist minister told me how they keep young people out of trouble, providing them with entertainment other than bars and nightlife by organizing regular field trips and camps and teaching them to channel their energies constructively, teaching them the longtime negative consequences of drugs etc. I think it is pure spiritual genius coming from the Holy Spirit!"

Ya, I am inclined to agree. We still have a lot to learn, don't we?!

Mary Cunningham, would you agree that the Anglican Church is "Catholic" (kind of) in its tastes, but not really at all in its theology and morals?

"Mandatory celibacy as a rule for priests, which is then broken freely by priests who do not feel called to celibacy, creates a horrible situation that puts the credibility and the authenticity of the Catholic vocation into question."

True, true. The solution needn't be the abandonment of celibacy, but might be its reinforcement, that is, clarification and insistence at all stages of the seminarian's formation. Many of the priests who left the priesthood in the late 1960s - 1980s had been told, IN THEIR SEMINARIES, that the regulations requiring celibacy would be relaxed and that after ordination they would be permitted to marry. Such advice showed a shoddy theological and historical understanding of clerical celibacy. Even in times and places where celibacy is not a prerequisite for ordination, the promise not to contract a marriage subsequent to ordination has always been a condition. That is, even in places where married men might be ordained, ordained men have never, ever in Catholic (or Orthodox) church been permitted to get married (though they were not required to abandon their spouse, obviously).

In the middle ages, more than wanting to inherit the property of her clergy (most of whom were not heirs in the first place, thence their choice for Holy Orders instead), the Church wanted to ensure that her property was not inherited by her clergy's children. That is a less unflattering and more understandable goal.

If anyone wonders whence the origins of celibacy for the priesthood, one need only look to the example of Jesus Christ the High Priest. He himself never took a spouse, and Latin-rite clergy cannot be impugned by any Christian for following His example.

Certainly a man needs the support of a family. Many of us know that our own families might not be the most supportive though. Priests very often find themselves (happily) adopted by families and friends. Loneliness in the priesthood is a problem primarily for priests who have trouble with healthy interpersonal boundaries and relationships in the first place. This problem is not specific to the priesthood, but is endemic to our society. Does anyone doubt that there is a vast number of lonely people in western societies these days?

Mary, I must admit that I had been taken aback by the anti-Catholic sentiment expressed by many in this forum. I have never known inter-denominational hatred among Christians all my life. I have never lived anywhere where Catholics would be considered weird or second class. It is completely strange to have Catholicism referred to as another (as if it were non-Christian)religion!

In Australia there are 26% Catholics, 22% Anglicans, excluding other Christian denominations that make up about 70% Christians. There is no anti-Catholic feeling here. I presume the feeling in the US has to do with the history of immigrants fleeing religious persecution in Europe, and the persecution was probably attributed to the Catholic Church under Rome, the longstanding British Anglican-Roman Catholic rivalry and conflict. The one-pastor one-denomination is a feature unique to the US.

Being a Catholic, I have nothing to do with the imported American churches here in Australia. The Protestant Churches of the American kind are very popular here though and has a high membership of young families and young people. They have much to teach the Catholic Church. The wife of one Baptist minister told me how they keep young people out of trouble, providing them with entertainment other than bars and nightlife by organizing regular field trips and camps and teaching them to channel their energies constructively, teaching them the longtime negative consequences of drugs etc. I think it is pure spiritual genius coming from the Holy Spirit!

Paganplace,

I do not believe that the Catholic Church is guided and preserved by the Holy Spirit because old men have told me so, but because I myself have seen and experienced it.

If the Church isn't founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit, then to hell with it. I could just go join the Kiwanis, a perfectly nice organization for fraternity and social service.

As it is, I hope by the grace of God to persevere in her earthly fold until my last breath, and then with her into eternity.

Ryan

Mary, thank you for chiming in and information about the Church of England, which seems to have a rather interesting and complex history from the little I gathered, about it being more Catholic in rituals and belief than protestant at some points in history etc. When I visited an Anglican church in London many years ago, I was surprised at how almost Catholic it looked! The same goes for many of the Lutheran churches in Germany.

Marriage for Catholic clergy is of course only for diocesan priests; after all religious communities and monasteries cannot be families living together as communes. Even in the Eastern Orthodox traditions, parish priests are allowed to be married, and they have celibate monks living in monasteries. My denomination, the Syro-Malabar Church in Kerala had to introduce celibacy for the parish priest after it came under the Roman Catholic church about four hundred years ago. The other Syrian Orthodox (the Thomas Christians) churches in Kerala, India of which we were originally a part, still married clergy.

The unflattering view about introducing celibacy in Europe is that the Church wanted the property of the nobility who joined religious life. For instance there were prince-bishops (I lived for a while in a part of Germany which had the tradition for many centuries) who left their property entirely to the church, which would have been out of the question had they been married.

As a believer, I am sure that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church

For jealousy is the rage of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance.
He will not regard any ransom; neither will he rest content, though thou givest many gifts.

He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all.

“he will not spare in the day of vengeance” “thou givest many gifts.”
“but he that hateth gifts shall live.”
“For these be the days of vengeance”
“receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”
“thou hast thought that the gift of God”
“For the gifts and calling of God”
“on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
“know that ye were Gentiles” “these dumb idols, even as ye were led”
“For by grace are ye saved” “it is the gift of God:”
“the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners”
“a woman in the city, which was a sinner” “kissed his feet”
Look “betrayed into the hands of sinners” “for she is a sinner”
“the communion of the blood of Christ”
“the communion of the body of Christ”
“the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all.”

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

“the Son of man”
“his eyes were as a flame of fire”
“his feet like unto fine brass”
“they burned in a furnace”
“out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword”
“and have the keys of hell and of death.”

“His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns”
“he was in the house of his master the Egyptian.”
“his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph”
“The light of the body is the eye”

“and Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh, captain of the guard, an Egyptian”
“when his master heard the words of his wife”
“After this manner did thy servant to me; that his wrath was kindled”
“his name is called The Word of God.”
“No man can serve two masters”

“the Son of man”
“his eyes were as a flame of fire”
“his feet like unto fine brass”
“they burned in a furnace”
“out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword”
“and have the keys of hell and of death.”

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

“and gave gifts unto men.”
“evangelists”
“pastors and teachers”

“He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens”

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

O Lucifer “gave gifts unto men.”

Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

As a believer, I am sure that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church

“the communion of the blood of Christ”
“the communion of the body of Christ”
“the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all.”

Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

“Bless them which persecute you: bless”
“Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb”

“the Son of man”
“his eyes were as a flame of fire”
“his feet like unto fine brass”
“they burned in a furnace”
“out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword”
“and have the keys of hell and of death.”

Tell me, Soja, in the past when Catholics were discussed these blogs became viscerally, violently anti-Catholic. There has since been some kind of monitoring but who knows when it will break out again? So, obviously, there is an enormous amount of anti-Catholic sentiment in the US. Is that true also in Australia?

Interesting discussion. A few points:

Firstly the Church of England—the established (ie state supported) church—is a Protestant church to its very fingertips. It is also disintegrating fast because it has no rationale in the modern, well postmodern really, age. A national religion is doomed, except, of course in Israel and maybe theocracies in the Islamic world but those are another story. A *Western* national Christian religion is doomed.

Secondly, certain religious have always been celibate, oh! from the first monasteries which btw were in Egypt. But secular priests, that is priests who interacted with the lay public, were allowed to be married until the 11th century at the Council of Rome in 1074.

(add www)fordham.edu/halsall/source/g7-reform1.html

*Now it’s pretty clear that this was to prevent powerful noble families from gaining control of their local church and using its benefices to enrich themselves rather than the poor for which they were intended. Since this is exactly what happened in Northern Europe during the Reformation one can see the wisdom in the prohibition.

Paul, I already mentioned that I am unable to provide the reference to the survey that was mentioned in another article supporting marriage for Catholic clergy. The point I was trying to make was that Catholic men wishing to serve God as pries