All Comments (42)

It appears this thread needs a reminder about the "feems" (flaws, errors, "evangelation", muck and stench) of the "Abrahamic" religions:

To wit:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

The muck and stench in Judaism you ask?

Belief that that the Jews are god's chosen people and its resulting consequences.
simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

The muck and stench of Catholicism you ask?

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

The muck and stench of non-Catholic Christian churches you ask?

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/profiteering" evangelists and atonement theology.

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Steven, thanks for your response.

Statement by Steven: Re-read (or read for the first time) the Old Testament (which I've recently done,) and you'll see quite a number of times God calls on his people to not only spill blood, but to create catastrophic bloodbaths.

Answer: These bloodbaths are not because God desires it but prior to the sacrifice made by Christ, i.e. The Old Testament, God in his perfect righteousness has no choice but to punish and destroy man because of our disobedience and utter depravity. The only reason he does not do so today is because of the covenants he made and for us gentiles specifically the New Covenant made through Christ. But now for those who do not accept this New Covenant, Jew and Gentile alike, there is exposure to God’s righteousness and eternal death for them, just like in Old Testament times. So, Steven, it is your choice if you want to dwell on the Old Testament and shake your fist at God or you can get on your knees, repent, and thank God for providing you a way out of the judgment of eternal damnation for your sins through Jesus.

Statement by Steven: And, there are very specific formulations about which animals are to be sacrificed, upon what occasion, for what sin or offering that pleases God. There are even specific directions about how the blood is to be spread along the altar, where and within what basin to put the blood, and what shall be burnt and what shall be eaten during a blood sacrifice.

Answer: This is temporary ceremonial process to condition God’s people to the concept of substitutionary atonement. Further, here is what you will find in 1 Samuel 15:21-23: “But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the best of the things devoted to destruction, to sacrifice to the LORD your God in Gilgal." And Samuel said, "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has also rejected you from being king." Steven, Samuel was talking to King Saul but you are King Saul. You are the king of your life and you reject the word of the Lord and you not only do this but you also mock Him.

Statement by Steven: Churches celebrate and remember the "blood of Christ, shed for your sins" each Sunday--this is very specifically a redeeming sacrifice required of God from Jesus, that we are commanded to remember. It wasn't just some accident of history, that Jesus was crucified, according to Christian doctrine. It was his reason for existence on earth. I Peter 2:24, "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

Answer: It was man who shed the blood of Christ. They tried to kill God. And I suppose that even today you atheists do the same. Jesus said the following: John 10:17-18 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father." So, Steven, Christ laid down his life of his own accord for our sins. It was Christ who made the sacrifice, it was man who killed him and it was God who honored Christ as he became the first to rise from the dead and He sits at the right hand of the Father. This sacrifice was not done for God but for you. Yet you won’t accept this sacrifice so you condemn yourself.

Statement by Stephen: You would probably be better off hearing from active Christians on this topic. The sacrificial blood of Jesus is a necessity for the redemption of the people in the world.

Answer: We were discussing your statement that God wanted blood not that the sacrificial blood of Jesus is necessary for redemption. No God did not want this blood to be shed but it was necessary to give you and me a way to salvation and God allowed this to happen. God did not want blood and for reasons we don’t completely understand it was necessary. Perhaps there was no other action that could have taken place to demonstrate the depth of God’s love to us hard of heart, sinful human beings. It may not mean anything to you. I will tell you that for me personally what happened and how it happened convicts me. It convicts me because the omnipotent God of the universe would do such a thing for me.

Statement by Steven: God requires blood sacrifice. The whole Holy Week is re-enacted to remind us that Jesus, praying to God that he might not have to drink from "this cup," nevertheless, knows that it is a requirement "your will be done," and is crucified, then the whole Easter thing. It's a celebration of what God does for us--he becomes the necessary SACRIFICE for all humanity's sins...and the "fallen world" concept.

Answer: God requires blood sacrifice? Steven, I don’t see any Christians making blood sacrifices so I don’t know what you are talking about. If God required it, then I would be doing it, but thankfully he does not.

Statement by Steven: Now, I'd repeat the question--why do gods from antiquity require and seemingly thrive on blood sacrifice?

Answer: I can not speak for Baal and all the other false gods and Idols, even to this day, but as for the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob please see my second answer above. As I pointed out in the other posting there is still human sacrifice going on to idols in this very day. So don’t think it is just something lost to antiquity. To net it out, with no if ands or buts and to repeat myself: Christ does not require any blood sacrifices. No where in Christianity will it be found that you can get to paradise by killing others or making any blood sacrifices whatsoever.

Well Steven, I do not expect to have changed your mind. I spent time on this because you never know and because I sincerely liked your choice of topics. It is indeed a very fascinating area and one of great confusion. Take care and I have nothing else to say on this topic and have probably said too much already! I'm exhausted and done. Thank you and remember: seek Him and you shall find.

I really don't want to hear superstitious bull "shouted from the rooftops" anymore than I want to hear mullahs screeching calls to prayer five times a day.

There is no difference. Xtians fix yourselfs first and Mohammedans buy an fn watch.

But...if you get in my face I will gladly tell you what a poor misguided fool you are, and how the Cults of Abraham are aiming to destroy the world to gain the upper hand in what is really a political battle, with pretension to religion.

Freedom of speach means just that. Don't get in my face and I won't get in yours. Otherwise, all bets are off.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

“God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life”

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”
“God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him”
“God said, Behold, I have given you every tree”

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

“every plant of the field before it was in the earth”
“for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth”
“there was not a man to till the ground.”
“there went up a mist from the earth”
“watered the whole face of the ground”
“Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground”
“breathed into his nostrils the breath of life”
“man became a living soul”
“the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man”
“made he a woman”
“brought her unto the man.”
“they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed”

And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

“out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field”
“brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them”
“whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.”
“she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.”

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

“the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.”

And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

“The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.”
“Lord God said unto the serpent”
“Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field”

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

“And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.”
“Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.”

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

“when the woman saw that the tree was good for food”
“she took of the fruit thereof”
” gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
“the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked”
“they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.”

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

“And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.”

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

“thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”

“God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life”
“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”
“God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him”
“God said, Behold, I have given you every tree”

“moving creature that hath life”
“when the woman saw that the tree was good for food”
“she took of the fruit thereof”
” gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
“the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked”
“they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.”
“And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.”
“thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”

“every plant of the field before it was in the earth”
“for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth”
“there was not a man to till the ground.”
“there went up a mist from the earth”
“watered the whole face of the ground”
“Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground”
“breathed into his nostrils the breath of life”
“man became a living soul”
“the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man”
“made he a woman”
“brought her unto the man.”
“they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed”

“living creature”
“out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field”
“brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them”
“whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.”
“she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.”
“the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.”
“And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.”
“Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.”
“The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.”
“Lord God said unto the serpent”
“Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field”

“moving creature that hath life”
“God said, Behold, I have given you every tree”
“when the woman saw that the tree was good for food”
“she took of the fruit thereof”
” gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
“the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked”
“they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.”

“they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed”
“breathed into his nostrils the breath of life”
“man became a living soul”

“living creature”
“out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field”
“the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.”
“whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.”
“And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.”
“Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.”

“they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed”
“they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.”
“Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.”

Go figure
“to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.”

http://atheists.more-advanced.com/2008/03/02/pat-condell-interview-new-dvd/

Cal's idea of "followers of Jesus"

- pre-emptive war

- capital punishment

- hatered and exclusion for gays, Mexicans and Muslims

- torture

- environmental rape

- genocide in Iraq

Dear Jesus, please protect us from your "followers"
Amen

Tim,
thanks for the post.

With all due respect, I think you might want to re-visit the blood-sacrifice thing.

Re-read (or read for the first time) the Old Testament (which I've recently done,) and you'll see quite a number of times God calls on his people to not only spill blood, but to create catastrophic bloodbaths.

And, there are very specific formulations about which animals are to be sacrificed, upon what occasion, for what sin or offering that pleases God. There are even specific directions about how the blood is to be spread along the altar, where and within what basin to put the blood, and what shall be burnt and what shall be eaten during a blood sacrifice.

Churches celebrate and remember the "blood of Christ, shed for your sins" each Sunday--this is very specifically a redeeming sacrifice required of God from Jesus, that we are commanded to remember. It wasn't just some accident of history, that Jesus was crucified, according to Christian doctrine. It was his reason for existence on earth. I Peter 2:24, "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

You would probably be better off hearing from active Christians on this topic. The sacrificial blood of Jesus is a necessity for the redemption of the people in the world.

God requires blood sacrifice. The whole Holy Week is re-enacted to remind us that Jesus, praying to God that he might not have to drink from "this cup," nevertheless, knows that it is a requirement "your will be done," and is crucified, then the whole Easter thing. It's a celebration of what God does for us--he becomes the necessary SACRIFICE for all humanity's sins...and the "fallen world" concept.

Damn it I get annoyed when I, an atheist, need to explain this to someone who believes.

Now, I'd repeat the question--why do gods from antiquity require and seemingly thrive on blood sacrifice?

And I agree with you, murder is murder, and the entire populations ordered to death by the God of the Old Testament is closer to murder than to appeasing sacrifice, although one would need to try to sort out why on earth he ordered all of the animals killed too--maybe that was just for his pleasure.

Ain't high church mass the reenactment of the crucifixion? That was the shedding of the savior's blood so everybody can be saved. Jesus must have been in favor of bloodshed and so much so he shed his own blood to save Cal Thomas just another ordinary sinner. Sorry about that Cal, meant to say an extraordinary sinner. Commit any really interesting sins lately? You ain't catching up to Clinton or nothing like that are you? Just as soon as the evangelical manifesto gets made the new constitution they're going to throw Bill Clinton in jail for interesting sinning. Sinning interestingly? That would be the morals police knocking at your door. They only want to save you from yourself right now but just you wait. You're going to find out what Cardinal Law is all about. That goes for the rest of you sinners hanging around here too.

Rev. Hagen,

I can't believe you are going to sit on the judgment seat of some of which are God's children to determine where they will or will not spend eternity and whom you've probably never met. If you read the Sermon on the Mount and also speaking to those who cleaned the outside of the cup and not the inside of the cut. They hated His message and crucified because of that message and it was all warm and fuzzy for those who loved their sin and as you know had him crucified. They hated the message.

Maybe you should examine your self and see if you are in the faith: the faith of scripture.

Mr. Thomas,

I totally agree: this means now we use man-made methods instead of spirit-led evangelism. The bible clearly speaks of this.

"Steven, Christ does not want blood.

"The shedding of blood is something our idols lust after."

Didn't know you had 'idols' like that, no wonder you're scared of *mine.*

Gods don't demand sacrifices, even of human suffering. (In my religion, Lady's pretty darn specific on that point.)

Some people do.

And call that 'God,'

Even if it comes in the form of shedding the blood of 'idolaters.'

Catedra - chair is the judgment seat of God. Cardinals represent God so when a cardinal passes judgment it's the judgment of God.

The oldest version of that story dates ancient Egypt where the notion of God's judgment originated. Today's version and going back to whenever is based upon a minor alteration in God's judgment brought about by a heretic and would be Pharaoh, (God), Amenophis IV, (get a load of that name, AMEN-ophis). Prior to "her" Pharaoh passed judgment on both the living and the dead while setting in catedra. The living he judged, (Samuel's sons were judges) while he was alive and he judged the dead after he died, (took his power with him).

Amenophis IV believed she was the one and only and forever Pharaoh, son of God even though she wasn't even a son. She was way too busy being worshiped, honored, adored and glorified to pass judgment so she turned that job over to an Irish lad, Saint O'Serious, (Osiris). He, (She?) was so serious he threw sinners over the side of the nebol bridge right down into hell. Still going on? Heretics got, will get theirs in the end.

Those who have visited the hoax-buster.org web site know Amenophis IV has been positively identified as the person on whom both fictional superstars of the Bible, Moses and Jesus are based. I would give you a one click URL but some folks "can't take the truth" while the rest of us can't control our laughter.

Tim: said - "Steven, Christ does not want blood."

Absolutely so. But blood shed is necessary sometimes. That's why cardinals wear red vestments. They are the officials that do the shedding of blood when heretics are dealt with. Heretics are all but Roman Catholics so Cal is included as one of them that the pope would if he could shed his blood using a cardinal to do the deed.

They don't just haul off and burn a heretic at the stake. Cathedrals are churches where cardinals have "catedras" chairs in which they set while passing judgment, heretic or not heretic is the question. Burning at the stake is but one of several cures for heresy that involve massive bloodshed.

In California Schuller has built himself one of them cathedrals and declared himself to be a cardinal so if I were Cal I'd be a little uneasy. One never knows when burning at the stake will make a comeback. Schuller might wake up with a bad headache and decide to pass judgment on him. Like the man who fell 10 floors. Everything was fine until he hit the ground.

Steven, Christ does not want blood.

The shedding of blood is something our idols lust after. If you identify a god that wants a sacrifice, then it is not of Christ.

The evil in the world is manifest in man's actions that end up in blood sacrificed to idols to this very day. The idol of Convenience here in America is offered over 800,000 unborn babies each year. And in total America has offer to the God of Convenience 38 million unborn since 1973.

Who is requiring or what do we make these blood sacrifices to? Is it God? No, these sacrifices are made by men to their idols.

So the blood gets sacrificed to Idols (false Gods) today just as it was in ancient times. Idols like communism, Allah, money, convenience, Nazism, sex, pride and all the rest. Idols want blood not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Allah gives immediate passage to paradise for those who shed blood for him. There is no other way to assure yourself of paradise in Islam. This is a very definite characteristic of an idol.

Jesus said those who murder are of the devil who was a murderer from the beginning: John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

The God of Abram, Isaac and Jacob gives us the story of Abraham which concludes with God telling Abraham he does not want the blood sacrifice of a child. It was common practice in those days, as it is today, to sacrifice one’s child to an the idol. Nothing changes other than they made images of their idols and gave them names, like Baal. Today we are more sophisticated as we don’t, in many cases, make physical images that express our worship.

As to animal sacrifice in the Old Testament, it was the marking time for the day of Christ when all this would end and the ultimate blood would be shed for the freedom of mankind, once and for eternity.

Christ was killed not by God but by the people of that day. Again, it is man who required and wanted the shedding of even the blood of God. They sacrificed God himself to their idols of that day.

God allowed his own blood to be shed. Why? Perhaps this is because God knows that we do not understand anything other than the shedding of blood. By allowing man to do this it is a way for God to demonstrate His unconditional love for us once and for all. What else can God do to prove His love after this? Nothing! Even the most hard hearted among us should recognize that there is nothing left to do. You either accept this sacrifice made by God or you don’t. As Christ said on the cross, “it is finished.” This was a sacrifice by God because He voluntarily subjected Himself to the humiliation and pain and make no mistake about it; the blood was shed by man, not by God, and man did not shed this blood for God but to oppose Him and to try and kill Him.

John 15:13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 20:30-31 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

John 19:30 When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Dear Mr Thomas

As a Christian first and a Catholic by denomination I wish you a Happy Holy Trinity Day! Catholics reflect on the mystery of the Trinity in a special way today. (Best reflected in John 14-17).

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

PaganPlace, well said. You say in few words what it takes me a paragraph to scrawl out!

Gods.

'Fallen World?'

If you believe that, and apparently can't deal, go ahead and withdraw, instead of trying to make prophecies self-fulfilling.

Funny how you claim to have the copyright on 'Hope,' but want to make policy based on the idea the world's gotta end.

fallen planet? compared to what? What is it that we are supposed to be falling from? And where is it exactly that we are supposed to be falling to?

Evangelism is a label tarnished by an adherence to its own doctrine. It doesn't matter what you call these people: Evangelists, Christians, or followers of Christ. The truth is that they are what they are - zealotry breeds zealotry. As long as we suffer under the scourge of religion, mankind will never be at peace.

Steve and Fate: I appreciate your posts. Thanks, they both needed to be said.

I, too, get tired of new labels... and it seems the intention of suggesting "Followers of Jesus" is the next best thing is also "the same thing." I've served on two church staffs (and attended several others) and have had to adjust to calling "us" something different often.... Saved, Born Again, Believers, and of course Christians.

As a PR professional, one part of me understands the strategic need for distinctive "branding" and another part questions why we need a new label. I don't think it really matters to "unbelievers" at all what we call ourselves. I fear what we're trying to accomplish is distancing ourselves from others we disagree with and divesting ourselves of baggage of the past.

Frankly, I think we do this in part because we have too much time on our hands... which reminds me I gotta get back to work.

Evangelicals worked, and worked hard, to politicize their name and inject themselves and their theology into politics. Every agency in Bush's government has a faith-based office now thanks to them. Their mission was to spread their theology through government. It was not covert, it was not accidental.

But the political winds are changing. Their benefactor, Bush, has the highest unpopularity ratings of any president in history. His lack of leadership and putting forth faith-based agendas instead of paying attention to important things has landed this nation in debt, war, and a deepening economic pit. So it is only expected that evangelicals will want to disassociate themselves from the very mess they made.

As the good book says, you reap what you sow. And as the good book says, you should repent when you have caused damage and sorrow. But all I see is evangelicals running away from their damage instead of owning up to it. No repentance. Just whistling as though they were never near Bush or had anything to do with bringing this nation to its knees. What a sorry way to express your devotion to God, by acting like children who broke the cookie jar while trying to get cookies and saying you had nothing to do with it. Why would anyone want to be an evangelical when they can't even admit a mistake? What kind of morality are they teaching? What a poor example of Christians they are. What a poor examples of Americans they are.

Jihadist I think that was the best answer I have seen yet! Thanks ;)

When you see a sinner creature preaching from the cross, you know that this is the dog.

“the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom”

But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

“I send you forth as sheep”
“ye therefore wise as serpents”
“harmless as doves”

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

“the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God”

Arise, O Lord, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:

“deliver my soul from the wicked”
“which is thy sword”

Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

“Deliver my soul from the sword”
“from the power of the dog”

That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same.

“the blood of thine enemies”
“the tongue of thy dogs in the same”

They return at evening: they make a noise like a dog, and go round about the city.
Behold, they belch out with their mouth: swords are in their lips: for who, say they, doth hear?

“swords are in their lips”

Then said the Lord unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind could not be toward this people: cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth.
And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the Lord; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.
And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord: the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy.

“I will appoint over them four kinds”
“the sword to slay”- “the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God”
“the dogs to tear”- “from the power of the dog”
“the fowls of the heaven”- “harmless as doves”
“the beasts of the earth”- “I send you forth as sheep”
“to devour and destroy”- “ye therefore wise as serpents”

The priests said not, Where is the Lord? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.

And it shall come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of my people, to swear by my name, The Lord liveth; as they taught my people to swear by Baal; then shall they be built in the midst of my people.
But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the Lord.

“And it shall come to pass”
“if they will diligently learn the ways of my people”
“to swear by my name”
“then shall they be built in the midst of my people.”

“But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the Lord.”

This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of man is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

“the heart of the sons of man is full of evil”
“madness is in their heart while they live”
“after that they go to the dead”

The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.

And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.
And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

“the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom”

And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

“Lot sat in the gate of Sodom”

Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

“therefore came they under the shadow of my roof”

The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

“the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ”
“by whom the world is crucified”
“I unto the world”

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

“the death of the cross”

“the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom”
“the heart of the sons of man is full of evil”
“madness is in their heart while they live”
“after that they go to the dead”
“shall remain in the congregation of the dead.”
“Lot sat in the gate of Sodom”
“therefore came they under the shadow of my roof”
“shadow of death light is sprung up”
“the death of the cross”
“the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ”
“by whom the world is crucified”
“I unto the world”

Oh ye, unbelievers! Open your hearts and minds on the "fallen planet" as said by Mr. Thomas.

Oh ye, unbelievers! Know you not that Mr. Thomas is not speaking of Planet Hollywood's shares falling down?

Oh ye, unbelievers! Know you not that Mr. Thomas is not speaking of a Planet Hollywood chain outlet which fell into a pile of rubbles due to an earthquake?

Oh ye, unbelievers! Know you not that Mr. Thomas is speaking only about one "fallen planet" among the billions and bilions and billions of planets in the universe?

Oh ye, unbelievers! Know you not, Mr. Thomas is only speaking of a "fallen planet" and not at all on "planet earth", the world you live in?

Oh ye unbelievers! Know you not, God may have no time to consider each and every "fallen planet" in the universe?

Oh ye unbelievers! Know you not that God may decide to go by "fallen planets" instead of individual "fallen beings" for convenience and pragmaticism?

Oh ye unbelievers! Know you not that God may have decided to go by the accumulated and cummulative fallen vs the unfallen beings of planets in weighing what is and what is not a "fallen planet"?

Oh ye unbelievers! Know that we may soon speak of "fallen solar systems" and "fallen galaxies" too to cover other planets and beings in the universe created by God.

Oh ye believers and unbelievers! I know not what Mr. Thomas said and meant about a "fallen planet" and its "redemption" as opposed to "reformation".

"J"

Well said and very well put. I am Also a follower of Jesus, But my native american side brings me very close to nature also. Acceptance of all beliefs is crucial to your place in the life after. Evangelicals will not be seated at the right hand of the father but instead burn in satan's fires for being Judge, Jury, and Executioner. Their Motto should be Destroy our Faith by perverting it!!!

Well, I might propose a definition of 'the world' or a "fallen planet" that seems to me to be the most consistent across all pulpits:

"The World" is what disagrees with our personal or group mindset or worldview. It is anything we disagree with, that we don't understand, or that is different from us. "The World" is that threat that may shake our foundation, or give us challenge or pause to wonder if it is we who might be mistaken. "The World" is anyone or anything we just simply don't like.

And Tim I would challenge you with one further question, and I'd love to hear your answer.

Why is it, that across all cultures throughout all time, the gods have required and delight in blood sacrifices? What is it about dead flesh and blood that is appealing to the gods, throughout all human history? What in the world could be so mentally or psychologically wrong with a god that he/she/it could be appeased only with a death that involved blood and flesh, usually the death of an innocent or "pure" specimen? When humans have such desires, we call it "blood lust" and we usually institutionalize those people and refer to them as psychopaths. Why is it a virtue of the gods?

And then the next question becomes, why should such a "gift" be appreciated, or applauded?

"Dave – don’t you remember? God filled his finest creation (us) with the horrible scourge of original sin. The only way we can live forever is to beg forgiveness for this sin he inflicted on us and claim him as our savior. At least I think that’s what it says in the bible, but I might be reading it wrong. "

I'm not a scholar, but this seems a crude way of reading the text at best. Regardless of how one views the whole of the Genesis narrative, it is obvious that the writer(s) wanted to get the point across that creation, including humanity, as originally created by God was good. I'm of the opinion that the irony of this would not have been lost on the ancient readers any more than it is on us. They would have known just as we that the world 'ain't all that great.' However they would have tried to make sense of that, it would have been clear that humanity has been vested with free will (I am acutely aware of how cliche this will sound) and is thus responsible for its own plight. This is obviously open to several philosophical, and probably some exegetical, objections, but I will leave it at that for now.

Cheers,
Dave

Why all the fuss about a fallen planet? This place stinks with sin and all you have to do is look around you at all the murder, rape, pornography, greed and idol worship. This planet will not be reformed because there are too many who are hard of heart. So Cal is correct. The mission of Christ was not to reform this fallen planet by making us all robots to obey the will of God. But instead he came to redeem those whom the Father had given him. The sheep who know His voice.

The word redeem means “to buy out.” The term was used specifically in reference to the purchase of a slave’s freedom. God has purchased our freedom, and we are no longer in bondage to sin or to the Old Testament law but free though the blood of Christ for all those who believe. The irony is that if 100% of all humans were redeemed then this planet would by completely and perfectly reformed. This perhaps will happen at the end of the age but it won't be pretty.

Evangelical: One who professes belief in Jesus and the NT for a substantail profit.

"...a fallen planet."

Earth: "I've fallen, and I can't get up! Good thing there's Life Alert."

Followers of Jesus, not Labels

"shadow of death light is sprung up"

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

"let the dead bury their dead."
"as he taught in Capernaum."
"he came and dwelt in Capernaum"
"Galilee of the Gentiles"
"The people which sat in darkness saw great light"
"shadow of death light is sprung up"

This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

"...a fallen planet."

What an idiotic comment.

Thomas thanks for your thoughtful response.

I was thinking specifically about the word, as used in these sentences:

from Toyin:

"Why are we fearful of the world....

and from Kaylor:

"...as a document trying to fit in with the world.."

and Cal Thomas:

"...another attempt to "fit-in" with the world."

When I look out of my office window, who is "us" versus who is "the world?"

You know, I have never to memory agreed with your opinion in this column, but on this topic, I do. Labels are slippery items: it doesn't take much to subvert them to one's needs, whether positively or negatively. As to whether Evangelicals need a manifesto to define themselves, who's to say? I'm sure it will help some while further confusing others. All I would keep in mind is the following questions - "Who has written this document and what is their agenda?"

STEVEN

One of the ways that I personally look at it, is that I am not perfect, not even close.

I have a fallen nature in that even when I know what I should do, that doesn't mean that I actually do it.

People that call themselves Christian, I believe, should be more interested in becoming a better person themself rather than telling others what they should and shouldn't do. Actions do speak louder than words.

God chooses some to speak for Him, others choose themself to speak for God, there is a difference.

I have heard a story told where someone said that life was like two wolves living within them, one was a good wolf and one was a bad wolf, whereas a young child asked? Well, which one lives? The answer was, whichever one you feed.

I imagine that you have either heard this story or a variation of it and if you think about it, not only does it speak of a "fallen world" but also of the existence of good and evil, does it not?

God works in lots of ways and He does have a Plan and His Plan is unfolding before our very eyes and no matter what kind of box someone tries to put God in, He doesn't fit.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Kaylor - Do you ever wonder why God made the bible so hard to interpret, considering he insists that we live by it?

Dave – don’t you remember? God filled his finest creation (us) with the horrible scourge of original sin. The only way we can live forever is to beg forgiveness for this sin he inflicted on us and claim him as our savior. At least I think that’s what it says in the bible, but I might be reading it wrong.

Can any of the Christians posting here give me their definition of "the world?"

Who, in your estimation, is "the world." Where does your community end and "the world" begin?

(And I ask this in context of a "fallen world.")

Kaylor - Do you ever wonder why God made the bible so hard to interpret, considering he insists that we live by it?

Dave – don’t you remember? God filled his finest creation (us) with the horrible scourge of original sin. The only way we can live forever is to beg forgiveness for this sin he inflicted on us and claim him as our savior. At least I think that’s what it says in the bible, but I might be reading it wrong.

God's Word is LOVE, since God is Love. If what someone does, does not flow from Love, as in what Jesus said, "Love one another as I have Loved you", then that someone is not following God's Word.

It is simple, one can multiply words all that they want but if it doesn't flow from Love, then all of the words in the world are without meaning.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

It is easy to say that everything we evangelicals need is in God's word, but the difficulty comes in interpretation. This Manifesto--like many other works--helps evangelicals in interpreting the Bible so it can be better lived out. For that reason, I give it a hearty "amen"! It does not read as a document trying to fit in with the world--in fact, it criticizes such attempts that result in defining evangelicals politically or culturally. Part of following God's agenda is to do God's reforming work here on earth.

I agree with Cal Thomas when he said everything a follower of Jesus needs is in God's word. Why are we fearful of the world when we are to bring the world to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. This so called "manifesto" to me is meaningless and wordly. It is time for Christains to know and be totally convinced who their commander in chief is. My last words are ..Get back to the bible. It is the infallible, uncompromising word of God. You do not need another book or manifesto. It is all in all and has stood the test of time. Selah.!

"...God and His agenda, which is redemption, not reforming a fallen planet."

I didn't realize the two were antithetical.