All Comments (25)

has access to, and has already read
no original thought to think

Think about what you wrote. why do the sinner creatures worship the lamb of god(king of sodom)as a god.

"why not just trash me"

you were 2000 years ago

What?

If you got no original thought to think, except copying and pasting Biblical scripture, whom everybody else already has access to, and has already read, then, oh yes, why not just trash me?

John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

“who coming after me is preferred before me”
“whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.”
“Behold the Lamb of God”
“which taketh away the sin of the world”
“This is he of whom I said”

And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

“Abram said to the king of Sodom”
“I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet”
“I will not take any thing that is thine”

“who coming after me is preferred before me”
“whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.”
“Behold the Lamb of God”
“which taketh away the sin of the world”
“This is he of whom I said”
“Abram said to the king of Sodom”
“I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet”
“I will not take any thing that is thine”

"Lamb of God” "the king of Sodom”

Jeff P. 10:18:, "Traditional morality among Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc., is shockingly monotonous - we all agree, traditionally, generally speaking, that charging interest is immoral, that sex is best saved for a single lifelong partner of the opposite sex with at least one eye toward procreation, and that STUFF isn't as important as PEOPLE because when we die, we will live somewhere, in some way, forever - presumably with each other."
**********
I dot't know who Ryan is talking about either, but I totally agree with the above copied part of his post.

When you are single it is hard sexually to wait for that "one" right person, but I resist and have been free from sexual relations for a year now. I at least want this "right" person to know that I respected our forthcoming union enough to perserve myself for him and him alone.~

"They want to be free to make as much money as possible at others' expense, have sex with whomever the want without consequences, and collect as many toys for themselves as possible because at heart they are nihilists and materialists and think that at the end of life is only death. Traditional morality among Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc., is shockingly monotonous - we all agree, traditionally, generally speaking, that charging interest is immoral, that sex is best saved for a single lifelong partner of the opposite sex with at least one eye toward procreation, and that STUFF isn't as important as PEOPLE because when we die, we will live somewhere, in some way, forever - presumably with each other."

Ryan, who are you describing?? What is this "category?"

Ive read about Daniel in the Lion's den...

DITLD, youre no Daniel in the Lion's den...

Perhaps a different psuedo-name might be in order.

Aubade:

Philip Larkin takes my breath away. Sometimes, when I read Larkin, I find myself actually holding my breath.

Thank you for posting "Aubade."

Liora

Angela

You are not speaking on God's behalf and you are not speaking for Christians; you are speaking for Angela. If there is any Christian who has a belief that is different from yours, then you simply dismiss them as not being a real Christian. But, of course that argument works both ways, which you would be able to see, if you were not so wrapped up in Angela.

Angela,
What I read in your first post was that "we", which I assume means people with a religious purpose, should 'push for their views to be communicated and sometimes upheld through judges, lawyers, political leaders and most importantly congress and the supreme court', just like the secularists.

What this shows is that you have no idea what secularism is. It is not a religion. It does not even have a moral mandate or purpose. Both Turkey and Iran are Islamic countries but one is secular and one is not. Webster defines secularism as:
"indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations"
In other words, religious belief is not a factor when laws and government are concerned.

And Angela, I have read the bible, and studied it, both testaments, and I would love to debate it with you. We could start with why the dinosaurs missed the ark when the bible says ALL the animals on earth made it on board. But I find that a waste of time. What I find more demanding of my time is trying to get religious belief out of my laws, out of my courts and out of my government where they do not belong.

Fate: I guess you didn't read my post correctly but not surprising.. Read the entire Bible; old and New Testament.

Angela,

When did Jesus petition Rome for changes in the law? When did the disciples petition kings, or run for office or high position to affect changes in the laws? Where is it written that laws should be changed to favor the teachings of Jesus? The only mention by Jesus of his religion and government was when he noted that Ceasar's coins were Ceasar's and love of God was Gods. You cannot love Jesus by loving your nation. You cannot substitute a courthouse for a church.

No one, including the Consitution, cares if you set up churches, knock on doors to talk about your myths to people, pass out fliers, stand on soap boxes in the middle of a square to get your views across. But pushing your religious views, based solely on the religious edicts, into law as some Muslims are doing, is not supported by Jesus or the bible. The closest you get to that is Constantine who made christianity the state religion of Rome and then went on murderous campaigns spreading the "truth" using the sword.

So please keep your religion to yourself and those who willingly listen to you and do not attempt to convert a nation through its laws, instead of through its people as Jesus directed. Your own quote supports this: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." Nowhere does Jesus say to change the laws to impose your particular belief's morality through the law.

Hi Eric, To respond to your post, a secular Christian from God's word is not a christian; I believe that term is very loosely used. Also, I've never been angry or offended if those who choose to believe what they believe; that's their right but I've always found that when we as Chrisitans believe that certain moral issues are important and we speak on it through different city, state and governmental issues and in social seetings, we are painted as fundamental, fanactical Christians. I don't have a problem with being called that as certain beliefs are fundamental to my faith. Yep, I do agree that sometimes our views are not held up; that's America. Jesus' message to the disciples was: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. Also in Paul's last letter to Timothy: he instructed Timothy to preach the word whether people listen or not. Be a workman approved by God. If people don't listen, then they don't. Lastly, when we as believers don't share our faith we are considered disobedient to Jesus' command. James also spoke that if we hear the word and not do what it says, we are like someone who looks in the mirror and then afterward forgets who they are. I agree solemly with this quote.

Just a Thought: John 14: Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.

Now about this, "Christ died for our sins." The sin part that is.

According to the IFM, (UN's International Food Monitors) 100 million MORE people are now dying of starvation than was 6 months ago. Anyone who watches the news knows what I'm talking about, Sam's Club and Costco rationing rice and the donut shop out of everything including holes.

Is the failure to practice birth control murder by starvation. We know abortion is murder and therefore a sin but how about eating up all available food, wasting food even? Is that also murder? Is the pope, evangelicals and even soccer moms in their yuppimobiles burning corn, are those folks murderers killing people in other parts of the world by starvation?

The answer is yes by your standards. Lucifer in the burning bush explains it.

Oh, and Cal:

"At its best, faith drives people and movements that are good for humanity. At its worst, it can become a tool of a political party or candidate and divert attention from the Kingdom that will not end in favor of a temporal kingdom that is passing away."

Then, to you as a political-religious pundit, I'm sure you won't mind if I say the 'passing away' doesn't necessarily have to happen for four or five billion years, (Do you understand that number?) and if you're not expecting to be back, yourself, how bout going ahead and saving something for those that will come after?

Attitudes like what you voice there lead to not only bad policies and irresponsible practices, generation after generation, but also attitudes I find best encapsulated by those who claim their Christianity is the only possible source of goodness in the world, then drive two-ton vehicles around with gloating stickers that say, 'When I'm raptured, this vehicle will go out of control and maybe kill some people.'

My question to that is always, 'If you believe that, why don't you take the *bus?*'

Save something for the 'meek,' righteous guy.

Mr Thomas said:

"But the suggestion that faith should never escape the boundaries of one’s own heart and mind is a kind of selfishness, an unwillingness to share the greatest news ever proclaimed.'

So, just who has ever made such a suggestion?

To me this is a deliberate "bad-faith" misunderstanding. Opposing obnoxious relgious fanatacism and mania should not lead one to the above stated conclusion. Thids deliberate "bad-faith" misunderstaning in the process of arguing these points makes the discussion difficult and point.

Mr. Thomas just doens't get it, and neither does Angela.

Att: Comrades, Vanguards, Inheritors, Reclaimer’s of O.U.R. Holy Cosmic Space Ship “1-Earth-Place”

From: 1-Earth-Place:

Hello Friends, Of Holy “Cosmic-Ship-Yard Made” Space-Ship Earth(s) via Momm/Poppa NEBULA:

Hello Friends, Of Holy “Cosmic-Ship-Yard Made” Space-Ship Earth(s):

Besides his mezmerising "Baratone-Voice', Sir Borack Hussain Obama is a smooth "Situational Liar!"

And his Oprah Winfrey , the vintriloquist et al, like Nation Of Islam etc.., is a beguiling Mass-Media “Mind control” Operator!

Nice try!

Yes Yes Yes, So INSTEAD,

VOTE: Hillary by the S.E.A.

Atten-Hut!

Salute & Vote:

The Commander-iN-CHiEF: Hillary by the S.E.A.

S..O-L-U-T-i-O-N’s!
E..X-P-E-R-i-E-N-C-E!
A..C-T-i-O-N!

Thank You!
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
FRM CONEY ISLAND NEW YORK
Better my CLINTON Not BORACK!
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Better me CLINTON Not BORACK!
Better CLINTON’S than OBAMA‘s!.....________________
Better the CLINTON's than the McCAIN's! Thank You ALL!

--
Vote: The Prophecy for 2009:

“A once in a life-Time Opportunity!”

Note: Hillary & Bill are GOG (TRUTH/Reality) 'NOT' Barack & Michelle, MAGOG (illusion/Delusion)!

You are one of millions that believe, as you wrote, "Christ died for our sins."

What is a sin?

From the dictionary:
sin - the willful breaking of religious or moral law

I am left to conclude that those without religion or morals are incapable of sinning. The absence of sin being a requirement to get into heaven seems to me that religion and morals are a determent.

Better check out that being in the burning bush, give it a closer look. Only God is happy to sacrifice His only begotten son to save you. Any other similar case saying I'm a sinner that needs to be saved is a rather poor defense for homicide. Everyone else with a murdered kid screams for justice but not God? Faith is in God?

Angela,
You appear to think that Secularism is an ideology or group the same way that Christians are. It isn't. There are secularist Christians, Muslims, Athiests, Buddhists, Jews, Pagans, etc... There are probably nonsecular flavors of each of those beliefs, too. Secularist in the sense its generally thrown about in this debate just means someone who thinks religion shouldn't be combined with government. I'm a Christian. I'm also a secularist. Do you count me as a "them" or an "us?"

Second, about that condemnation complaint. The first amendment gives you the right to shout to the country your opinion that secularism is wrong. But that same right means others have the right to condemn you. You can't demand the right to speak yet in the same breath demand that others not do so. It would in fact be giving YOU a special priviledge if the government prevented people from commenting (negatively) on your ideas.

Lastly, everyone has the right to try and make Congress and the Courts push/uphold their views. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Being on the losing side of democratic and constitutional decisions may be upsetting, but its not an infingement on your rights and it doesn't mean the winner is unfairly priviledged. Most of the time it simply means they had more votes or a better legal argument(or if I'm being cynical, more money).

pp, "An analogy I like to use is that my own religion holds Earth to be sacred. I may support environmental legislation, but I don't demand people honor tree-spirits on public property or support a carbon cap 'Cause Goddess says so.'"

GODDNESS?? TREE-SPIRITS?? THAT IS WHAT I CALL IRRATIONAL. PROOF PLEASE??

Here is one of my favorite quotes by one of my favorite people.

"The faith is not given us in order that we preserve it, but in order that we communicate it. If we don't have the passion to communicate it, we don't preserve it," Msgr. Luigi Giussani.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, in his last moments on this earth said, "And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age," (Mt 28:18-20). Not only in that little quotation, but throughout its entire underlying structure Christianity is an inherently public faith - that doesn't mean that it should be forced upon people or dominate the public life of the nation. We do not understand our faith to be a "good secret." It means that, as Mr. Thomas said, to keep the "Good News" secret or private is a contradiction in terms.

Paganplace, you are on the right trail, but saying that "science is science," doesn't tell us anything useful. Strictly speaking, it is a method and a body of knowledge. Specifically, it is a method of repeatable experimentation (or at least observation) and a body of knowledge about the natural world. Now the "revealed religions" each argue that there is something in the universe that entirely transcends, and other things that at least in part transcend, the natural world and the laws of nature. There are "souls," in other words, loosely put. When scientists overstep the bounds of their real scientific knowledge, and start speculating about other things like the soul and the meaning of the universe, they do so as amateurs; very much like a 17th century clergyman that might pontificate like a buffoon about the structure of the solar system. If a scientist sets himself up as knowing about such things, or more acutely, denying their reality altogether and claiming that by measuring the width of an atom or the distance to a star they can prove such things as a soul don't exist, not only do they deny the actual experience and observations of 95% of the world, they also very much set themselves up as "a rival religion." In fact, then they very aggressively oppose EVERY religion, claiming the authority of science to do so, when in fact they had long since abandoned the scientific method in their thinking.

We have developing in the US an analogous situation. A relatively small clique of persons have decided that the rest of us are pretty much dumb and stupid and will never get along unless we all shut up about our deepest held convictions and beliefs and experiences. That's disfunctional. Families that can't talk about their feelings, etc., find other ways to get them out. I know, that's my experience. Communication, that is, talking about things - especially differences - usually helps clear up the air. But the clique doesn't actually want Christians and Jews old to America and Hindus and Muslims new to America to get along. If we got along, our traditional moralities, which are very much in line with each other on almost every issue would prevail. And that's what the clique doesn't want.

They want to be free to make as much money as possible at others' expense, have sex with whomever the want without consequences, and collect as many toys for themselves as possible because at heart they are nihilists and materialists and think that at the end of life is only death. Traditional morality among Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc., is shockingly monotonous - we all agree, traditionally, generally speaking, that charging interest is immoral, that sex is best saved for a single lifelong partner of the opposite sex with at least one eye toward procreation, and that STUFF isn't as important as PEOPLE because when we die, we will live somewhere, in some way, forever - presumably with each other.

And that's why the modern secularists and atheists just want us to SHUT UP. If you doubt that, read their posts on this blog. This animus against religion is opposed to the Founding Fathers, who were almost entirely secularists, but not exactly atheists, and who thought religion was a good thing for a nation even if they didn't believe it themselves.

In his visit, the Holy Father commended America for its healthy (what he called "Christian") secularism: the recognition that the affairs of this world can be addressed without constant reference and submission to one set of clergy or another. He contrasted this to the European secularism, catching on among some in this country, that hates religion and just wants it out of the way. In a healthy secularism, every culture and creed has a chance to show its wares to every passerby. In a decrepit one, like France's, any public display of religion or difference is forbidden as "divisive."

This new secularism and new atheism, "spiritual" or "ritualistic" or not, is very much a dogmatic ideological creed, and deserves no more airtime than its competition.

Paganplace: while you have much to say that this country is a secular country: that it is... we will continue to spread the gospel and even open-air evangelize as it is protected under rhe Constitution. Also, as long as there are laws being passed that we believe are immoral, we will shout in opposition from the rooftoops, in public schools, in courts and of course at the voting ballot. This is our "God-Given" right. Science is science and God is sacred. Earth is to be cared for but it will someday pass away.

Paganplace...nice comment! I agree, religion is meant to be private! It about one's personal relationship with the Almighty, you do not have to advertise it. Of course, if you want to shout it out from your rooftop, no one would stop you either, it is a free country afterall!

"Also, secularists are able to share their views and opinions on morality and push for their views to be communicated and sometimes upheld through judges, lawyers, political leaders and most importantly congress and the supreme court. Why do people condemn us if we want the same."

Secularists don't 'condemn you for wanting the same,' ...if anything it's for political religious trying to enforce their religious ways as above question and reason, while claiming out of hand that any other position is unacceptable and 'anti-Christian.'

It *is* a secular government, not a theocracy. Science is science, not a rival religion. You can participate in America the same as anyone else, but you do not have the right to impose your religious views with state power.

An analogy I like to use is that my own religion holds Earth to be sacred. I may support environmental legislation, but I don't demand people honor tree-spirits on public property or support a carbon cap 'Cause Goddess says so.'

Especially when things are *purely* religious, like homophobic legislation based in no state interest and which actually harm groups of people, making them less-secure and productive citizens, then that's not *participating* in America, that's an abuse of the system for an irrational agenda.

See the difference?

Aubade

I work all day, and get half drunk at night.
Waking at four to soundless dark, I stare.
In time the curtain edges will grow light.
Till then I see what's really always there;
Unresting death, a whole day nearer now,
Making all thought impossible but how
And where and when I shall myself die.
And interrogation: yet the dread
Of dying and being dead,
Flashes afresh to hold and horrify.

The mind blanks at the glare. Not in remorse
- The good not used, the love not given, time
Torn off unused - nor wretchedly because
An only life can take so long to climb
Clear of its wrong beginnings, and may never:
But at the total emptiness forever,
The sure extinction that we travel to
And shall be lost in always. Not to be here,
Not to be anywhere,
And soon, nothing more terrible, nothing more true.

There is a special way of being afraid
No trick dispels. Religion used to try,
That vast moth-eaten musical brocade
Created to pretend we never die
And specious stuff that says no rational being
Can fear a thing it cannot feel, not seeing
that this is what we fear - no sight. nor sound,
No touch or taste or smell, nothing to think with,
Nothing to love or link with,
The anaesthetic from which none come round.

And so it stays just on the edge of vision,
A small unfocused blur, a standing chill
That slows each impulse down to indecision
Most things may never happen: this one will.
And realisation of it rages out
In furnace fear when we are caught without
People or drink. Courage is no good:
It means not scaring others. Being brave
Lets no-one off the grave.
Death is no different whined at than withstood.

Slowly light strengthens, and the room takes shape
It stands plain as a wardrobe, what we know,
Have always known, know that we can't escape
Yet can't accept. One side will have to go.
Meanwhile telephones crouch, getting ready to ring
In locked-up offices, and all the uncaring
Intricate rented world begins to rouse.
The sky is white as clay, with no sun.
Work has to be done.
Postmen like doctors go from house to house.

Philip Larkin 1922 - 1985.

Mr. Thomas: I agree wholeheartedly with your post. Also, secularists are able to share their views and opinions on morality and push for their views to be communicated and sometimes upheld through judges, lawyers, political leaders and most importantly congress and the supreme court. Why do people condemn us if we want the same. Lastly, the joy of knowing that you are loved and forgiven for your trespasses against the God of the universe, it's the greatest message for those who confess their sins and repent (turn away from lawlessness/sin) and stand free and forgiven in the courtroom of righteousness. Go therefore and tell the whole world what Jesus taught and commanded to be free.