All Comments (58)

Thanks to HL we have discover the path to salvation!

You only need to:
*be baptized
*repent of your past sins
*trust Jesus as your Lord and Savior
*believe that Jesus is the Son of God
*believe that Jesus was resurrected
*do good works
*follow church rituals and sacraments
*avoid certain specific behaviors

Just in case, meet all the above requirements and try not to make too many questions.

But wait, there are other angles from where to look at salvation:
*Salvation is by faith only
*Salvation is by works and faith
*Salvation is by works only
*Salvation is by faith motivated by love
*Salvation is pre-determined; we cannot influence our own salvation.
*Salvation occurs at baptism
*Salvation for some infants and mentally challenged adults is automatic

If you are not mentally challenged be careful to make a correct choice. Read all the books at least two or three times to be safe when deciding. Any minor mistake and you will be toasted for the eternity.

Still you need something more. Pick a correct club:
*Some conservative Protestants believe that one need only trust Jesus as Lord and Savior to be saved.
*Most conservatives add to the above requirement that one must first repent of one's sins.
*Most Progressive Christians downplay salvation, interpreting many biblical passages on the topics of sin and salvation as poetry.

Progressive looks like a sure thing, but conservatives may get better seating in heaven. I don't know, better you make your own choice.

Thanks HL, you have been very helpful clarifying the word of the Intelligent Designer. From now on nobody should miss salvation.

Peace to all and best wishes

JAC

“If Jesus was not literally and bodily raised from the dead - as He said He would be and demonstrated in front of witnesses who just days before had abandoned Him in fear of the mob that called for His crucifixion -- then all humanity is without hope.”

What authority does Mr. Thomas draw from when he makes such a statement?

Rafamdergem and CCNL,

Jesus never said or hinted that his death would be a vicarious atonement for anyone. His words attributed to him as recorded in the three synoptic ‘gospels’ speak of acknowledging God and treating everyone kindly especially the poor and the weak.

So when we read in Luke “that they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere” we should ask what gospel is the writer talking about. The same goes for this verse in Mark when Jesus says “the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” We can be positively sure that the gospel here means the preaching of Jesus and nothing else. There is no believing in resurrection, no incarnation and no human sacrifice.

When we read the gospel according to John a different kind of Jesus appears. Jesus here is described as the man from heaven. The writer(s) of John has Jesus say “for I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.” And later on he also says “This is indeed the will of my Father that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life.” Again there is no mention of the doctrine of vicarious atonement or human sacrifice.

The fourth gospel is so different from the other three that some bible historians are of the opinion that it was written by the Gnostics in Egypt. That may be the reason why the gospel of John was not mentioned by early Christian writers until mid to late second century.

Now we come to the epistles of Paul. “Paul repeatedly made the claim that thus sayeth the Lord belonged on his lips. (E.g., 1 Cor.14:37; 1 Tim.2:11; 1Cor.2:13; 1Thess.4:1-2, 8; 1Thess.2:13; Eph.4:17.cf. 1Cor.7:25, 40.) It is Paul alone who made statements that he was, in effect, speaking as a prophet.” And he claims to have been handed a gospel of his won. He claims that “God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to MY gospel.” Elsewhere he says “now to Him who is able to establish you according to MY gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began.”

His gospel is all about the death and resurrection of Jesus. He claims that “if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

This new teaching is distinct and foreign to the gospel of Jesus. And in effect Paul is saying that his goispel is not just on par with the gospel of Jesus but also abrogates it. Forget about the preaching and the uncomfortable gospel of Jesus we have a new cheap grace gospel in town: the gospel of Paul.

Paul in his gospel says that “if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain.” Well, if the shoe fits…

Paul is no more than Balaam and should not be believed.

When Christians speak of the "canon of the Bible" they mean the list of books that are to be considered as sacred writings or the word of God to the exclusion of all other books. I don’t see why the gospel of Paul is included in scriptures. His gospel stands in contradiction to Jesus’ gospel. That possibility maybe true only if the ‘New Testament’ is accepted as a suggested reading list and not scriptures.

Hello BGONE.

A little surprised you are still here.

But, nonetheless, I happen to know many people of faith who are immensely tolerant. But as with any organization of people you have to take the good with the bad. Rather intolerant of you to suggest that as a whole the religious are intolerant.

PS. the below was my post, and I mentioned nothing about whom was intolerant. Just that all children are innocent. Any ideas or propositions we decide upon and implement should be geared to educating those children in regards to tolerance, patience and selflessness.

"We need to understand that intolerance, impatience, and most importantly selfishness exhibited in today's adults are most likely products of an innocent child's environment."

Jeff

HL,

Your bible thumping did not work. Read below for a dose of reality:

Happy Bunny Monday to everyone since Easter did not happen!!

Can you still be a Christian without the Resurrection? There are too many flaws in the current Christian orthodoxies to include the resurrection story. Clean it up and see what is left historically and then redefine Christianity.

Some facts:

From an analyses of the documents by many contemporary NT exegetes:

The Resurrection is fiction i.e. it was added to make Jesus akin to the Caesars and Greek half gods/half men.

(1a) Mark 8:31-33 = Matt 16:2l-23 = Luke 9:22, (1b) Mark 9:9b = Matt 17:9b, (1c) Mark 9:12b = Matt 17:12b, (1d) Mark 9:30-32= Matt 17:22-23 = Luke 9:43b-45, (1e) Luke 17:25, (1f) Mark 10:32-34 = Matt 20:17-19 = Luke 18:31-34, (1g) Matt 26:1-2, (1h) Mark 14:21 = Matt 26:24 = Luke 22:22, (1i) Mark 14:41= Matt 26:45b,(1j) Luke 24:7

Conclusion: Many references but only a single attestation and from the Second stratum (60-80 AD).

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/017_Resurrection_of_Jesus

From the course notes of a large Catholic university's graduate theology class:

"Heaven is a Spirit state (no physical bodies abide there.)

Christ's and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven. For one thing, Paul in 1 Cor 15 speaks of the body of the dead as transformed into a "spiritual body." No one knows exactly what he meant by this term.

Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

The physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's
corpse) into heaven did not take place.

The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

Only Luke's Gospel records it. The Assumption ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers The Assumption has
multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would
be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female
bodies."

Amazing how this agrees with Professor Crossan and many other contemporary NT exegetes' conclusions based on attestations and stratums.

Some added thoughts:

According to Reimarus as referenced in R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,

"Reimarus (1774-1779) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

From: K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998. p.55

"Stories circulated to the effect that Alexander of Macedonia was not only the son of Philip II, but also of the god Zeus-Ammon (Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Alexander" 2.1-3.2); Plato was the son of Ariston and the god Apollo (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers 3.1-2), and Augustus was the son of Octavius as well as the god Apollo (Suetonius, Lives o f the Caesars 2.4.1-7). The extraordinary character of these elites reputedly stemmed from both their divine origins and their kingroups. Their kin-groups provided one form of legitimation-political right to the throne and/or social status (thus the importance of Joseph in Matthew's genealogy).

Their divine procreation provided another: their honor was divinely ascribed, and their greatness as leaders derived from divine paternity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary Clinton

Hi, Soja - I certainly don’t begrudge anyone whatever joy they may find in rituals and symbols, or whatever joy they find in anything that does not harm others.

What I’m opposed to are clergy and theologians who perpetuate myths as if they were fact, thus perpetuating false beliefs that church leaders themselves do not hold, onto future generations.

No matter now they rationalize it, I think this behavior is harmful and dishonest.

i love ASCII ART, this is lovely.

thank You, Mavaddat
is there "vedat" "friendship, love" in "Mavaddat"?

what is in "Mavaddat"? what are the roots in this word, that is your name?

LOVEO & LOVEA is arrived. We are Here!

...~~~~~o.... -----___
.~~~~....(♥)...............\
~~~~~................]={|)...) HELLO WORLD!
.~~~~....(♥).......___./
...~~~~~o--------
=
~~~~o ----
..~~~~(♥) \
~~~~~ ]={}..) YA YA!
..~~~~(♥) /
~~~~o ----

Please visit :jo:zevz.us: OR

♦.J
♦♦..O
♦♦♦...Z
♦♦♦♦....E
♦♦♦♦♦....V
♦♦♦♦♦♦.....Z.us OR

:j:
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THANK YE ALL!

rafamdergem, yep. I can clear that up for you.

Easter is a celebration of the story of the resurrection of Jesus. It is celebrated on the first Sunday after the first full moon on or after March 21.

And Naw Ruz is the Persian (Zoroastrian) New Year. It happens on March 20th.

The two holidays are completely unrelated, except that the Church arranged Easter so that it fell on the day of an ancient Pagan celebration of the Spring equinox.

now is there any body who can tell me about the "EAster" and the Zoroastorian NEVRUZ "New DAy"?

to HL

this is exactly the belief for salvation in Anadolu too, and i am serious about Mennonites and Church of LAtter-Day Saints, in corelation with the ones in Anadolu.

so i can say Islam is everywhere, islam is from Adam prophet, not Muhammed or Ahmet prophet, it is just the vocabulary in arabic. the word "islam" is from PEACE and sure-render.

so there are three Jesus, one Persian (zoroastorian zerdust of NEVRUZ) Muhammed and one Hebrew Jacobson Israelian (human-angel, holds He-EL, after 40) Ahmet prophet, and Moses and Noah. lovely,

and one more man, one of four prophets, known with Elijah, George in English, verbalized as HIDIRELLEZ, maybe the source of Church.

Anonymous:Baptism is not a requirement of salvation and it is not salvation, it is an “act” of “good conscious” between you and God. Most Christians do get baptized to show their sincerity.

Salvation is for all humanity but God requires that each individual when they reach the age of accountability to make their own confession of Christ to be saved as stated in.

----Anonymous I still do not get my answer. Friends Please tell me that If Jesus(PBUH) died for all of humanity then even atheists who reject Jesus should go to Heaven. Then why you need to accept Jesus as your saviour? If Jesus has died for the whole of humanity then those also who reject him should also be saved otherwise he died only for Christians.

Hi E Favourite

Thanks immensely for your thoughtful Easter wishes.

If you have no more use for the beautiful Easter liturgy and the profound truth and symbolism behind it, who am I to force you to believe against your will?

May you find joy and peace in whatever way you choose! Please remember to remember there are quite a few of us, who in the 21st century love the beautiful rituals and symbols and the mystery of God who was born as man. You don't begrudge others their joy, do you? I am confident that you don't!

Best wishes as always
Soja

hl

you are a PURE PSYCHOPATH to post such a long piece of SPAM.
whoever you beiieve in is diminished by your lack of human concern.

Mavaddat:

Yeah, me too. It's almost as difficult to follow as the Bible. Like many, I find the "sell your soul" page a lot easier but then it only applies to R-Catholics. No one else believes that angels have swords and shields.

Soja – Happy Easter to you. This is the first Easter in 15 years that I haven’t celebrated by singing uplifting resurrection anthems in a church choir. I missed the singing, the priests’ colorful robes, the pagentry, the Easter lilies and brass choir. I missed seeing all the children in their new Easter outfits. But I didn’t miss the seeing all those 21st century people trying to deceive themselves or others that they actually believed a physical resurrection really happened – and that it offers the promise of everlasting life for humanity.

Someday, I hope we can return to enjoying the resurrection of earth, as it comes back to life in the Spring, as the pagans did (and still do) before the Christ myth was born.

Whoever is advertising...

http://www.hoax-buster.org/

You would be far better off organizing your site and making it readable.

I can't look at it for more than a second without navigating away.

It is amongst the most aesthetically ugly websites I have ever seen.

I mean, sometimes I really do feel like I'm talking to... well, I can't think of anything polite.

Just, some of you, you do realize, when you claim only your book has salvation in it, also only your book posits the existence of anything to be saved *from?*

Can we get clear on that point?

"Finally, no agreement exists about whether non-Christians will be saved:
Some passages in the Bible suggest that all non-Christians will be lost."

You do realize, of course, that apart from how Christians like to treat you when they figure you're damned anyway, none of this is a big deal if you aren't Christian in the first place?

Baseball bats, shouts and bombs and shotguns aside, that kind of concern really doesn't keep you up nights. :)

Jeff Reed:

No one cries more sincerely for tolerance than the intolerant for it is they who faith that which never tolerates. Either you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior or you're going to hell is as tolerant as they get. What would they do if they were intolerant double condemn those who do not believe what they believe to hell?

Here's a tolerance expression you can take to heaven, as tolerant as a jihad warrior. OK, as tolerant as a crusader. JDL? Anyone?

The only tolerant people on this earth are those who do not subscribe to any one or all of the three great faiths for those faiths have intolerance built in. They are not faiths in God but faiths in sacred scriptures written by the intolerant to sell their intolerance. They pick someone, anyone to be intolerant of beginning with the Roman Empire and their intolerance is justified in their minds...can be explained using sacred scriptures...as they cry out for tolerance.

Religion is the great enemy of tolerance that is tolerated only because it has to be tolerated. How about, "as tolerant as the righteous" for one of them left handed compliments?

Should the intolerant be tolerated or would that only cause the tolerant to become intolerant?

Because He lives… I can face tomorrow
Because He lives… all fear is gone.
Because I know… He holds the future
And life is worth the living… just because He lives.

http://www.jcudell.blogspot.com/

If you believe in God, then you believe we were all innocent children at one time. If you do not believe in God, then you believe we were all innocent children at one time.

So, we were all innocent children at one time.

We need to understand that intolerance, impatience, and most importantly selfishness exhibited in today's adults are most likely products of an innocent child's environment.

We must work at the root problems.

Whether truly resurrected or not, I think Christ would understand.

paganplace,

this flow and structure is a bliss! if you see such a bliss in a book, a movie, or in a court of justice, you admire it! change the words, you shall get it.

it is so strong!

and the message of Cal Thomas is a grand joke on this structure, as strong as the blessing. it is a surprise sun shining in the sky!

Salvation, according to the Christian Scriptures:

"Now when we come to the four Gospels of the New Testament, we are surprised to see many discrepancies in them. The teachings of the first three synoptic Gospels are in many respects fundamentally different from those of the fourth Gospel. While the first three Gospels lay stress on the purity of heart and other ethical virtues, the fourth Gospel (John) lays emphasis on the absolute faith in the name of the only begotten son of God, without which a man is doomed to hell..." Rev. J.T. Sunderland, "The Origin and Character of the Bible."

Various Creeds and Bible passages base personal salvation on an individual:

having been baptized,
repenting of past sins,
trusting Jesus as their Lord and Savior,
believing that Jesus is the Son of God,
believing that Jesus was resurrected,
doing good works,
following church rituals and sacraments, and/or
avoiding certain specific behaviors.

But there was no consensus in the Bible as to the precise combination required. Some passages say that only good works are needed for a person to be saved. Other passages seem to contradict this by stating that salvation depended only upon belief in Jesus is needed. Other verses require two or more combinations of belief or actions, often including baptism and/or repentance.

These are the five main writers whose books were incorporated into the Christian Scriptures: the letters of Paul, and the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. The synoptic gospels (Mark, Matthew and Luke) are treated as a group, because they agree closely. The Gospel of John is treated separately, as are the writings of St. Paul. That is because their discussion of the nature of Jesus and the criteria for salvation differ greatly.

The synoptic gospels teach two main paths to salvation:

Salvation by good deeds, and
Salvation by lifestyle changes

Jesus talked extensively about individuals being saved and inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven. The main path to salvation that he described is based on good works and attitudes. Salvation is dependent on what people do and how they behave towards others - particularly the poor. Repentance, belief in Jesus or the act of baptism are irrelevant. Actions and attitudes only matter. This path is described very clearly in two passages:

Matthew 25:31-46: This is an important passage, because it describes the exact criteria which Matthew believed will be used at the Final Judgment when Jesus separates all the people of the world into two groups: those who will enter heaven and those who will spend eternity in hell. Addressing those on his right, Jesus says that they will "inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." He orders those on his left hand to "depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his [fallen] angels." where they will go away into eternal punishment." The sole criteria for routing individuals to heaven or hell is whether the person gave food, drink or clothing to the destitute, and welcomed strangers and visited the sick or persons in prison. That is, salvation is totally dependent upon one's treatment of one's fellow humans while on earth.

Luke 10:25-27: This is another important passage, because it gives Mark's recollection of Jesus' precise response to a lawyer who asked what one must do to inherit eternal life; i.e. to attain salvation and spend eternity in heaven. Jesus had him recite "The Law" from the Hebrew Scriptures which requires a person to:

Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, strength and mind. This is a slight misquotation from Deuteronomy 6:5: "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength."

Love their neighbor as they love themselves. This is derived from Leviticus 19:18: "You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself..."

The lawyer then asked the obvious question: who is my neighbor? The Leviticus passage implied that one's neighbors are restricted to one's own nation or tribe. Jesus disagreed with the passage in Deuteronomy, and responded with the well-known Parable of the Good Samaritan, which indicates that all humans are one's neighbors.

The parable describes a man who had been attacked by robbers and left half dead. Two Jewish religious leaders come upon the man: a priest and a Levite. The Jewish law forbids holy men from touching a dead person; it would be an act of ritual impurity, a serious defilement. They walk on the other side of the road to avoid any contact with the victim. A Samaritan comes by, bandages the man's wounds and helps him to a place where he can recover. The Jews of the day despised the Samaritans, regarding them as semi-pagan, inferior and persons of little worth. Jesus told the lawyer to be more like the Samaritan than like the Levite and Priest. That is, to make compassion for others the highest priority in life, and to downgrade religious rules and regulations to a lower level of importance.

Jesus makes clear in this passage that one attains eternal life in heaven by loving God and loving all humans, particularly the poor, needy and broken.

Matthew 5:20: "...unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven" The Rheims New Testament translates the Greek as "unless your justice abound more...".

Mark 9:42-48: Jesus recommends that if one's hand or foot or eye causes them to commit a sinful act, then they should cut off the offending member. Verse 47 says: "...It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell..."

Matthew 19:16-17 "Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, 'Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?'...Jesus replied...If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." Jesus then repeated 5 as being of particular importance (Commandments 5 to 9 inclusive from Exodus 20:12-16) and added a new commandment to "love your neighbor as yourself" 4 of the 6 involve actions to avoid; the remaining two list who one is to love. Jesus then goes further and urges the man to sell his possessions, and give the money to the poor, so that he would have "treasure in heaven."

Matthew 7:14 "...small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Matthew 19:24 "...it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." The disciples were distressed at Jesus' statement. They asked who can be saved. He replied that an individual trying on their own to do good and attain salvation will always fail. But with God's help, they will be able to achieve salvation through this route.

Luke 13:23-30 "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?...many I tell you will try to enter and will not be able to."

(2) According to the author(s) of the Gospel of John Salvation is by faith in Jesus as the Son of God:

The main message of the writer(s) of the Gospel of John is that salvation is attained only by faith and trust in Jesus as the Son of God. The author(s) have largely ignored the messages of the synoptic gospels, which taught that salvation is results from good works. John does not mention baptism as a requirement for salvation. Many liberal theologians believe that this gospel represents a very different belief system in the early Christian movement from that described in the synoptic gospels.

Some supporting passages from the NKJ version of John which support salvation by faith alone are:

John 3:18: "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

John 3:15-16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 3:36: "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 6:47: "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
John 8:24: "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

John 11:25-26: "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die..."

John 12:48: "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him-- the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day."

John 20:31: "...but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

The Gospel of John does contain some conflicting passages which state that salvation requires other factors instead of or in addition to faith in Christ as the Son of God. For example:

Hearing the Words of Jesus and Believing in God the Father:

John 5:24: "...he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." This passage implies that some Christians may be able to avoid the final judgment.

Doing Good Works:
John 5:28-29: "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

This passage clearly states that:

Everyone who has died will be judged. This contradicts Verse 24 which implies that believers in Christ will not be judged.

These two verses are so inconsistent with the rest of the Gospel that one wonders whether they could have been a forgery inserted into the original text by a later copyist. This is possible, however even the earliest manuscripts of John appear to contain the passage.

Remaining with Jesus:

John 15:4-6: "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, either can you, unless you abide in Me. "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

This verse seems to imply that one can lose one's salvation by neglecting to maintain a close relationship with Jesus.

(3) According to Paul Salvation by faith in Jesus' resurrection:

There are two salvation threads that run through Paul's writing:

Salvation by faith: Paul agreed with the author(s) of the Gospel of John. He apparently believed that personal salvation was dependent solely upon faith, not on good works. But it was belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus which seems to have been of paramount importance to Paul. Some liberal theologians believe that Paul died before belief in the Incarnation (Jesus as the Son of God), or in the virgin birth had developed within the Christian movement. There are indications that Paul was unaware of those two beliefs. 1 These verses are frequently read in conservative churches.

Some passages from the NKJ version of the Bible which show salvation by faith are:

1 Corinthians 15:21-23: "For since by man [Adam] came death, by Man [Christ] also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive."

Romans 5:18-19 "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous."

Paul rejects salvation by good works, as described in various places in his writings. Two of the passages indicating this are:

Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

One passage in Romans is given great weight by some Christian denominations. It implies that thinking is insufficient to gain salvation: that one must actually speak the thought in words.

Romans 10:9-13: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation...For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Salvation by law:

Paul also held a second belief: that salvation had once been attainable through adherence to the system of Jewish laws in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, it only applied to people who had previously died. In Galatians 3:23-26, Paul writes: "But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." This implies that individuals could have previously been saved by strict adherence to the law. However, after Jesus came, salvation was by faith in Christ only. Paul seems to have assumed that people everywhere had been exposed to the Gospel. In Romans 10:18 he wrote: "But I say, have they not heard [the Gospel]? Yes indeed: 'Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.'" He was wrong, of course. Christianity at the time of Paul's execution circa 65 CE had extended through much of the Roman Empire, but had not made significant inroads into the Far East or Northern Europe. The inhabitants of the Americas and of most of Africa had not heard the gospel message at all. There are countries in the world even today in which Christianity has made no significant inroads.

What must one do to be saved?

What did Jesus teach?

What must one do to be saved according to the Bible, Christian creeds, etc.?

The Bible contains many conflicting passages about how a person becomes saved. These include statements implying that:

Salvation is by faith only.
Salvation is by works and faith.
Salvation is by works only.
Salvation is by faith motivated by love.

There are also criteria for salvation contained in Christian creeds and other non-biblical writings:

Salvation is pre-determined; we cannot influence our own salvation.
Salvation occurs at baptism.
Salvation for some infants and mentally challenged adults is automatic.

Finally, no agreement exists about whether non-Christians will be saved:
Some passages in the Bible suggest that all non-Christians will be lost.
Universalist and liberal Christians generally believe that all will be saved.

The thousands of Christian faith groups in the world have never been able to reach a consensus about exactly what a person must do to be saved. Various groups select their favorite passages in the Bible, interpreting them literally. They then either ignore conflicting passages or interpret them symbolically. For example:

Some conservative Protestants believe that one need only trust Jesus as Lord and Savior to be saved.
Most conservatives add to the above requirement that one must first repent of one's sins.
Most Progressive Christians downplay salvation, interpreting many biblical passages on the topics of sin and salvation as poetry.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that a person is initially saved if they are baptized, that salvation can be lost by committing a mortal sin, but that salvation can be regained through church sacraments.

One might logically conclude that:

There are many different criteria for salvation in the Bible, Christian literature and church teaching.
Denominations hold many conflicting beliefs about what one must do to be saved.
All or essentially all faith groups are certain that their beliefs are absolutely correct.
Individual Christians cannot be confident that they know exactly how to be saved.

Most Christians simply accept the teachings of their own denomination. This may be dangerous. With so many conflicting beliefs about salvation among Christian faith groups today, the chances are very high that a Christian's own denomination is wrong about salvation. Unfortunately, if a person believes in the reality of Hell, the stakes are very high. It is of paramount importance to be confident of one's salvation. (From religioustolerance.org)

The basic teaching of Paul’s doctrine is that the death of Jesus on the cross was a vicarious sacrifice that brought about the reconciliation of God and man; the ties between which has been severed since the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. The main question here is this: did the historical Jesus actually teach such a doctrine?

The answer is obviously a resounding no. His words are collected in the synoptic gospels and there is nothing in there that has anything resembling Paul’s cheap grace doctrine. The question is then asked by Douglass Del Tondo after which he gives a reasonable answer:

“Why do so many find protecting Paul so important?

Because if we accept Jesus as the sole prophetic authority in the New Testament, we have a dilemma. Paul had many novel and unusual lessons of what the gospel represents. If Paul is no longer on par with Jesus, the Pauline salvation doctrine would lose its grip and legitimacy. A different salvation doctrine would emerge. If we had only Jesus, the Jesus’ message on initial justification by repentance from sin would emerge unmolested.

If Jesus’ message had sole emphasis, salvation would be a process that requires ongoing repentance from sin to stay justified with God and be saved.

We would no longer have the freedom to sin without losing salvation, contrary to what Paul is viewed to teach.

Instead, if we relied upon Jesus’ words without any constraint to make them fit Paul’s doctrines, we would have to trust Jesus’ promise of salvation for endurance and guarding his words.

If we had Jesus’ words alone, then Jesus’ doctrine would emerge that we have only two choices; we can to heaven maimed (i.e., having repented from sin) or hell whole (i.e., not repentant from sin).

Jesus’ message is not comforting at all to those engaging in sin after becoming a Christian. We will lose the assurance we are still saved despite our unrepentant sinning. To some, this assurance is the essence of saving faith. If we lose Paul, then we lose the very gospel that comforts us. We would then be forced to accept Jesus’ very different and uncomfortable gospel.”

" rafamdergem:

Paganplace,
St PAul is the purest mind in love."

If that's what you think, beg your pardon if I take three steps back, one each for 'pure,' 'mind,' and 'love.'

I see none of these in what he says, and, frankly, even raised Catholic, I saw everything he said as an *inversion* of the Gospels.

Sorry if that's still your problem. Kindly allow it not to be mine. :)

There is no hope for humanity as long as "true believers" like Thomas identify Christianity with humanity. Why is it that one mythology supercedes another? All religions compel its subjects to accept the irrational. Christianity is no exception.

Paganplace,
St PAul is the purest mind in love.

"...And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."

so God may raise Christ from All too, after fruitful faith and sins discharged.

"what is on the letters in the letters, of St Paul?"

St. Paul kind of recontextualized all that Jesus stuff into something all wrapped up in power and his own issues, basically unrecognizeable if you omitted the brand names, so, I'd say, 'St Paul is on that, and not much else.' :)

it is the MAR-y!

If Jesus was not literally and bodily raised from the dead, then all humanity is without hope.

thank you sir, thank You!

this letter is the Sea, it is the Ocean.

"But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.

And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead.

But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins." (NIV)

in this letter, if we consider "dead" is a human, a flesh and bone human, then the letter is the hope for all of humanity, a great hope itself.

Perspective wrote:
"Were Huang Po here just now, he couldn't have said it better.
or just maybe he ........ but no, that's not possible ........ or is it??"

Thank you for your compliment on my earlier post. And the following quote of Huang Po MAY answer your question.(as you already seem to know)

"All Buddhas and all ordinary beings are nothing but the one mind. This mind is beginningless and endless, unborn and indestructible. It has no color or shape, neither exists nor doesn't exist, isn't old or new, long or short, large or small, since it transcends all measures, limits, names, and comparisons. It is what you see in front of you." HUANG PO

How can a sane and moral and halfway intelligent person believe that
"if Jesus was NOT resurrected,
ALL humanity is without hope."

A staggeringly ARROGANT and idiotic statement.

Easy to see how Cal can say it.

But what about the 3 billion people in the world who don't believe him?

what is on the letters in the letters, of St Paul? what is the cement in His breath that has united the words into a letter, sir?

hope?

what is it in Your message?

Ruzgar is Wind, Ruzigar is the day when lovers come together, Ruzgar is the emission when lovers come together.

"If Jesus was not literally and bodily raised from the dead - -- then all humanity is without hope."

Whadddya mean, 'All,' paleface? :)

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul explains why baptism is such a desirable sacrament. It doesn't work of course for nothing will put out the fire that burns but does not consume not even holy water.

Holy water won't extinguish or even temporarily relieve the pain from the fire of hell but it will bring the big money to those leading the multitudes to hell by baptizing them. Cal, are you in on that, leading the multitudes to hell with what you write or just another dumb victim?

ZBOB -

A fine post indeed!!

Were Huang Po here just now, he couldn't have said it better.

or just maybe he ........ but no, that's not possible ........ or is it??

Sorry, Cal. You still have to show that sin exists. A worthy effort, though--I give it a 6/10.

FRIENDS , HELP ME PLEASE: "Many evangelists say that prophet Jesus Christ(PBUH) died for humanity and humanity means all human beings , I suppose. So why do people need to be baptized to be saved from hell because if prophet Jesus Christ(PBUH) has died for all of the humanity then atheists also should be able to go to Heaven even without accepting Jesus as their personal saviour since Jesus died for them .What is truth then ? Did prophet Jesus Christ(PBUH) died only for baptized people or all human beings so if he did die for all human beings then what is the need for baptizing and conversion?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Baptism is not a requirement of salvation and it is not salvation, it is an “act” of “good conscious” between you and God. Most Christians do get baptized to show their sincerity.

This may not be the best example but it is like a man telling a woman that he loves her and that he wants to marry her. By giving her a ring he seals, so to speak, his commitment to her. The ring is not required but as an act of good conscious he gives the ring.

Salvation is for all humanity but God requires that each individual when they reach the age of accountability to make their own confession of Christ to be saved as stated in,

“Romans 10:10 {10} For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

If I was as blind to reality as you are I would also say we are without hope. Until you can see again in fact, you are without hope. All you have is that comforting delusion, hopefully maintained by surrounding yourself with similarly delusional people.

Our species is without hope until we can rid ourselves of this nonsense. Fake hope is fake.

Many evangelists say that prophet Jesus Christ(PBUH) died for humanity and humanity means all human beings , I suppose. So why do people need to be baptized to be saved from hell because if prophet Jesus Christ(PBUH) has died for all of the humanity then atheists also should be able to go to Heaven even without accepting Jesus as their personal saviour since Jesus died for them .

What is truth then ? Did prophet Jesus Christ(PBUH) died only for baptized people or all human beings so if he did die for all human beings then what is the need for baptizing and conversion?

Also I would like to ask my friends about their viewpoint on Islamic Jesus Christ(PBUH).

Hey, once again Cal Thomas says the universe has to operate according to his superstitions, or there's no hope.

To quote Professor Farnsworth, "Sweet zombie Jesus!"

Dear Mr Thomas

I wish you a wonderful Easter 2008!

Since my Hindu ancestors were converted by none other than Apostle Thomas who insisted on touching the wounds of the Risen Jesus, and then exclaimed, "My Lord and my GOD!" I have no problem with accepting the physical fact of Resurrection.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Happy Easter, that great Pagan holiday that falls on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring Equinox. If that isn't pagan timing, I don't know what is.

Look at the moon. Now look at your calendar.

http://churchstatewall.typepad.com/

Susan Jacoby, Where are you when you are so desperately needed?

The resurrection of Jesus Christ should not be the central theme for Christianity since the teachings of Jesus regarding higher consciousness are more relevant to "salvation" and, therefore, should be the most important to his followers.

Clearly, humans have misperceived the universe around them for millennia and are continuing to do so. It is also obvious that we accept the current belief systems of our different stages in history as truth. Humans create self fulfilling prophecies through their cultural myths. (If the atheist Richard Dawkins had been born in ancient Greece he probably would have had great “faith” in the Ptolemaic view of a geocentric universe since Ptolemy’s calculations were so amazingly accurate scientifically. (If I am incorrect about this assertion, please blame my History of Astronomy professor from undergraduate college)

Of course, “god” is a concept that has been interpreted in many different manners by almost every different belief system and by different individuals within the belief systems. Could “god” be the collective consciousness of all space and time that exists in the transcendent order (see Einstein’s absolute space-time, David Bohm’s implicate order, Stephen Hawking’s time has no boundary proposal, etc.) which is actually “created” in the explicate order by conscious beings’ experiences. In other words do our impermanent conscious experiences in the historical dimension create the “god” of the transcendent ultimate dimension. While “god” may be irrelevant in Buddhist thought and practice, (especially as an interceding being) doesn’t the collective consciousness of the ultimate dimension (Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh’s terminology) lead to a similar transcendent, universal, absolute “being”? Does the seemingly illusory emotion of love that has become an aspect of human survival due to evolutionary change and adaptation actually “create” the love of “god” that exists in the implicate, transcendent, absolute order of reality?

If more people could realize the interdependent nature of all life and things in the universe (Thich Nhat Hanh calls it “interbeing”), and overcome the illusory independent self, then many of the world’s egocentric caused problems would cease.
Did the evolution of our species allow us to create vivid conceptual images of the past, present and future as a survival technique in a world with bigger, stronger competition? Is not the knowledge of good and evil a manner by which intelligent, self-aware beings conceptualize their apparent reality? Humans conceptualize their surroundings and phenomena in almost every moment of consciousness. Another necessary strategy for survival is the ability to distinguish one’s self from other selves. Other animals also seem to be able to distinguish their individual entities from other entities but to our knowledge, we may be the only animals to have evolved to the point of conceptual self reflection. (Genesis-they knew they were naked). But doesn’t our false, complex creation of an illusory “self” separate each “individual” from the true nature of the universe: Oneness!

If one looks deeply into their existence, one can determine that humans are not separate entities from the rest of the universe. In other words, we as physical beings are intimately connected to other “things” in the universe. We cannot survive without water, oxygen, vegetables, fruit, etc. and, therefore, we are a “part” of the “whole” Our ability to distinguish ourselves from other humans or animals or plants is an evolutionary strategy for self survival. But when you combine our intellectual abilities of conceptualization with our self awareness, we “create” a complex selfish entity. Within our thoughts over our lifetimes, we create an entity of self that attempts to protect itself from others and attach itself to people and to things. In Christian terminology this selfishness is defined as sin. Selfish acts and thoughts always cause the selfish person to suffer. Also, since in true reality we are part of all things, when we are selfless in thoughts and acts, we are one with God. Is this not essentially what history’s great spiritual teachers were teaching?

In my opinion, the central question to the inquiry into an "afterlife" is the determination of the nature of eternity. It appears that most people who are discussing this topic are presuming a "Newtonian" view of absolute time and excluding from the discussion the theory of absolute space-time as espoused by Einstein and Minkowski. While I will not attempt to explain the intricacies of the theories of relativity, suffice it to say that Einstein thought that the distinction between past, present and future is an illusion. Every moment of spacetime is a timeless entity in and of itself.

Eternity may not be endless time but, instead, eternity may be the timelessness of each moment which never "passes away" from the overall existence within absolute spacetime. Therefore, if eternity is timelessness and our conscious experiences are eternal, then our actions and thoughts exist in this timeless eternity, not as an individualistic “afterlife” but as a part of the whole of existence.
We have evolved to psychologically misinterpret much of "true" physical reality as Einstein and his progeny have expressed in not only the theories of relativity but also in quantum mechanics.
Therefore, if eternity is timelessness and our conscious experiences are part of this timelessness, then do our actions and thoughts exist in this timeless eternity? As theoretical physicist David Bohm stated: “Ultimately, all moments are really one. Therefore now is eternity" Or as theoretical physicist Brian Greene says: "Just as we envision all of space as really being out there, as really existing, we should also envision all of time as really being out there, as really existing too."

If you look at the ESSENCE of the consciousness teachings of all of the great spiritual teachers throughout history you will find an answer to the question of how to act and think in every moment of your life to touch YOUR subjective, relative part of the "kingdom of heaven" “nirvana”, “paradise” NOW