All Comments (53)

And it is concluded:

"Deflaw it all!!!!!"

Then there would be no Mecca, no Vatican, no Jerusalem holy places, no Mormon Tabernacle and no May poles. And the world is now a happy place!!!

Aww...

You mean the whole universe went to all this trouble to deceive lil' ol me? Such a nice thing to say about my importance in the Grand Scheme Of Things.

But, really, no. We're all just folks.

You folks say the sweetest things, though. :)

Homesower said:

"Pagan priests, Islamic Imams, and Buddhist monks are deceived".

This is true but incomplete. Add to that list christian pastors and priests. And then keep adding leaders of all other religions.

Robert B. asked:

"...when the church gets out of the snake oil business what can they replace it with, and still have a congregation?

He answered himself "I don't know". I don't either, but allow me speculate a bit.

I expect that some level of individual faith and even religiosity will survive for many decades, probably a century. So the market is there. But the product must change. No myths, doctrines, dogmas, superstitions and irrationality.

My guess is that a warm gathering of people to encourage each other to do good things and to help each other to solve their own problems could be the product that replaces old rites and doctrines.

Peace to all and best wishes,

JAC

Taking Christ out of Christianity is intellectually dishonest. Its like a Honda salesman telling all of his prospective customers that they should by GM. He wouldn't work for Honda for long. Unfortunately in many churches this appears to be the path to promotion. These are usually the denominations that are shrinking, so its self-defeating, but common nonetheless.

Ms. Vosper is free to start her own religion, minus Christ, but to claim both church membership and the promotion of a Christ-less church makes her an anti-christ. Its interesting that a Bible that she no longer believes in predicted her existence 2000 years ago. I am not claiming that she is the anti-christ of Revelation, but one of the many anti-christs that have come (and gone) over the last two millenium. What is especially sad is that she has so much company and many churches support the anti-christs over Christ, but this too was predicted in the Bible.

Pagan priests, Islamic Imams, and Buddhist monks are deceived, but at least they are generally honest in their beliefs. Ms. Vosper cannot make such a claim.

Robert B,

The false choice that C.S. Lewis presented was based on the groundless assumption that the Gospels are completely accurate. It's very likely that Jesus did not say or do all the things attributed to him. The Gospels' authors may have simply been repeating legends about their subject. Lewis' point would be valid only when looking at the Gospels' interior logic.

About "Jesus" versus "Christ," I find the former to be less stilted, especially since the latter was a title and not a last name.

Angela;

you say...

"Sorry to say: whomever has a master degree, any degree on theology does not make them anything but a intellectual not a Christian. How dare she write that Christ should be taken out of Christianity".

A masters degree in theology is like a masters degree in astrology or witchcraft. It's like a PHD in Alien Abduction. And it DOES NOT make one an intellectual. If anything it would be an impediment to one's intellectual capability because believing in angels an demons and fairies and gods and dragons and all the rest of it is beyond silly. These things exist alright. But only in the imagination; where anything goes.

In the 21st century I expect a big effort by religionists to gain intellectual respectability by letting go of the sillyside of religion; and coming to grips with reality.

No more Kool-aid.

Brambleton my friend

Thanks for your question.
If you google "slavery bible" you get about 600,000 hits.

The first one is at
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl.htm
a non profit non ideological organization.

Preachers in the North AND south widely and almost universally used the Bible to justify slavery in the US up until the civil war.

And if Bible believers think slavery was so benign in the good old days, why were God and Moses so adamant in demanding that the Pharoah "let my people go."??

Robert B.

Hi Robert. I agree with Tonio that people can still follow the teachings of Jesus even if he was just a mortal like the rest of us. You seem to imply that his teachings are worthy only because he was divine.

I don't for one second believe Jesus was divine. As far as we know there is NO supernatural world to be 'divine' about,and NO gods. That's why Ms.Vosper is dropping such ideas in her attempts to make something more honest and real happen in her church.
As I asked earlier...when the church gets out of the snake oil business what can they replace it with, and still have a congregation? I don't know. It'll be interesting to see what develops there.

In the UK thousands of churches were turned into bingo halls back in the sixties when Brits stopped going to church. That has also happened in Canada, but not to the same extent.

Maybe if Vosper fails, it'll be bingo there too.

Tonio. Hi. I enjoyed your excellent comments on this.

Tonio wrote:

"Why couldn't Christianity abandon the Resurrection doctrine and focus on Jesus' ethical teachings? If it were somehow proven that the Resurrection didn't happen, those teachings would still have value, wouldn't they?"

The problem as I see it is that Jesus' ethical teaching cannot be separated from his divine nature, which the Resurrection confirmed. Jesus did not appeal to reason for his ethical conclusions as Socrates did; he claimed to have, in essence, a direct connection with God. In my opinion, C. S. Lewis was absolutely correct when he wrote the following in *Mere Christianity*:

"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the devil of hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon; or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

Your comments also make me consider an odd trend I've noticed on these boards and in other places: the tendency to prefer to use the name "Jesus" rather than the title of "Christ" when making references to him. Now, of course, you would expect that of atheists and agnostics (and of course, I do not blame them for their preferences), but I've seen many of the Christians on these boards avoid the use of the term "Christ", which is what I find odd. I attribute it (and I may be completely off base here) to the tendency shown by Ms. Vosper and others to avoid the thorny question of the divine nature of Jesus by emphasizing his humanity, as well as the scholarly "Quest for the Historical Jesus" that has dominated religion departments for the last few decades. I wonder if there might be a scholarly paper in that somewhere. If so, it will need to be pursued by minds far more brilliant than my own. :)

"She has, essentially, taken Christ out of Christianity. She is, of course, welcome to do so, but she shouldn't be trying to remain a pastor (and thus imply that her ideas are sanctioned by her church) at the same time."

While you have a point about church sanction, what's wrong with her trying to change the church from within? Why couldn't Christianity abandon the Resurrection doctrine and focus on Jesus' ethical teachings? If it were somehow proven that the Resurrection didn't happen, those teachings would still have value, wouldn't they?

"Ms. Vosper seems to have fallen into a trap that many others in the modern age have: the belief that all novelty and change is, by its own nature, good."

Again, you have a valid criticism of that belief, but I didn't sense from the article that Vosper was falling into that trap.

"St. Francis of Assisi, who has inspired billions to act righteously, yet respected (indeed, embraced) the Church and its authority."

No church has inherent authority, only the authority that its members give to it. The article made the same point I've made here before, which is that submission to authority does not constitute moral or righteous behavior.

To Tonio,

So, such religions would be mere branches of philosophy and not philosophies in their own rights. Fair enough.

I also read the article posted by Andrew. Frankly, I wasn't very impressed by the ideas of Ms. Vosper. She has, essentially, taken Christ out of Christianity. She is, of course, welcome to do so, but she shouldn't be trying to remain a pastor (and thus imply that her ideas are sanctioned by her church) at the same time.

With her "scorched earth" approach to religion, Ms. Vosper seems to have fallen into a trap that many others in the modern age have: the belief that all novelty and change is, by its own nature, good. Tearing up institutions by the roots and attempting to replace them with something completely different usually ends in failure. One need only look at the French Revolution and the current debacle in the newly "democratic" Iraq to see this fundamental truth.

G. K. Chesterton described the fundamental difference between the two types of change in an article in which he compared traditionalism to a tree and modernism to a cloud:

"I mean that a tree goes on growing, and therefore goes on changing; but always in the fringes surrounding something unchangeable. The innermost rings of a tree are still the same as when it was a sapling; they have ceased to be seen, but they have not ceased to be central. When a tree grows a branch at the top, it does not break away from the roots at the bottom; on the contrary, it needs to hold more strongly by its roots the higher it rises with its branches. That is the true image of the vigorous and healthy progress of a man, a city, or a whole species. But when the evolutionists I speak of [he is addressing radical Modernist theologians, not scientists] talk to us about change, they do not mean that. They do not mean something that produces external changes from a permanent and organic centre, like a tree; they mean something that changes completely and entirely in every part, at every minute, like a cloud..." ("Of Sentimentalism and the Head and Heart" in the January 1909 issues of *Church Socialist Quarterly*)

If Ms. Vosper wants people to reform their lives *and* remain a pastor (both of which are noble goals, in my mind), she should not take the iconoclastic Nietzsche as her model, but rather St. Francis of Assisi, who has inspired billions to act righteously, yet respected (indeed, embraced) the Church and its authority.

Just food for thought... :)

"Aren't those called philosophies?"

I'm not sure they would qualify, since they would deal with only ethical questions instead of knowledge or reasoning questions.

Tonio wrote: "I've long wanted to see completely naturalistic religions that focus on the human experience without any supernaturalism or theology."

Aren't those called "philosophies"?

Andrew, thanks so much for the Globe and Mail article. I've long wanted to see completely naturalistic religions that focus on the human experience without any supernaturalism or theology.

Jimbo wrote: "People laugh at religion basically because its so silly and irrational. A new approach is essential if religions are going to earn people's respect, and stop the tittering."

Leaving aside the blanket assumption that the majority of people are laughing at religion, what kind of "new approach" do you recommend?

Andrew

Interesting article from the Globe and Mail. I'm inclined to agree that the supernatural is what is killing religion. In the olde daze, people had no choice other than to believe whatever the church told them. Ignorance was rife, especially before the Enlightenment, and folks accepted the nonsense that the Canadian church is now trying to get rid of. Good luck to them.

Superstition doesn't work anymore. We now know better, and are much better educated than our ancestors.

People laugh at religion basically because its so silly and irrational. A new approach is essential if religions are going to earn people's respect, and stop the tittering.

To: Andrew:

Sorry to say: whomever has a master degree, any degree on theology does not make them anything but a intellectual not a Christian. How dare she write that Christ should be taken out of Christianity. Who's Christianity: the new tolerant, ear tickling pastor and theologians of the day. Here's what Jesus says: Mark 4:35-42; 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[b] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. You can pray Him away, you can make Him more tolerant, you can make him out to be someone that you're comfortable with but His words and saving grace has withstood over 2000 years...wishing Him away won't make Him go away...

Wake up people.

The desire for retribution and atonement for the sin of slavery will not be found by looking back.

All Americans should realise the reality of slavery as it exists in the world today and work to end it.

MODERN SLAVES

Hardly a thing of the past, slavery thrives in our world. Investigative reporter Benjamin Skinner tells Salon the shocking truth about human trafficking.

http://www.salon.com/books/int/2008/03/27/slavery/

"Slaves in the time of the Old Testament were considered more like members of the extended family than property. "

That may be true, but most readers would not know that. In fact, many conservative Christians claim that such historical perspective on the Bible is blasphemous, because it undercuts the doctrine that the Bible is the word of God.

Cal Thomas, may children kiss each side of Your face, Cal Thomas,

i am from Bursa, of Nicaea. one of the cities that St Nicholas walked to, the other is Antalya. there is a Pyramid of Victory, like in PAris, here in Bursa, with Olympos Mountain of Sulphure and Zeus.

every house is a christmass today.

please make me friends with Senegalians. You know, what i do is not a football match. but i would love to light the fire for cheerful intimacy that gives fruits of wisdom and kindness,

besides nuclear energy : ) You lighted the hearth, we are warming up.

http://360.yahoo.com/vazifezarife

this is me,

His Breathfulness Nicholas Sarkozy

with Your Presence, and Marriage, we have presents in our houses, there is meal in our hearths for the table to come together.

thank You.

http://english.sabah.com.tr/75F6EABAF17E47A68278BBF973C5BEA6.html

Corinthians, MAnisa, St Paul and St John,

St Mark, St BArnabas, from foam on the shores of Cyprus.

Lokmaci Gate is from Hebrew "Lekhem", "Gate Lekhem"

http:/ /en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Aphrodite
Darwin on Turtle, Left Foot of Aphrodite on Turtle

My Left Foot, DAniel Day Lewis

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2008/03/25/nsarko625.jpg

http://www.artchive.com/artchive/b/botticelli/venus.jpg

Henry,

I would love to talk more about how and where the Bible condones slavery. Could you please point me to the passages that encourage this practice?

But before you do, let me offer a few words. Our view of slaves and who slaves were in the last 200 years is not the same as during the Old Testament. (Shocking, I know. I thought this would have been common knowledge, but I digress) Slaves in the time of the Old Testament were considered more like members of the extended family than property. The living standard of slaves was probably far higher than that of the unattached poor. They enjoyed adequate food and shelter plus freedom from the fear of marauding armies. In addition, the legal documents of that time made it clear that slaves had many rights, including recourse to the law if and when they were ever mistreated.

JOB 31:13-15 "If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me, what will I do when God confronts me? What will I answer when called to account? Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One form us both within our mothers?"

Not a sermon, just a thought.

I think this is important to read.

From The Globe and Mail, Canada.

Taking Christ out of Christianity

Avant garde pastor teaches a new Christianity where the way you live is more important than beliefs.

MICHAEL VALPY

March 22, 2008

That triumphal barnburner of an Easter hymn, Jesus Christ Has Risen Today - Hallelujah, this morning will rock the walls of Toronto's West Hill United Church as it will in most Christian churches across the country.

But at West Hill on the faith's holiest day, it will be done with a huge difference. The words "Jesus Christ" will be excised from what the congregation sings and replaced with "Glorious hope."

Thus, it will be hope that is declared to be resurrected - an expression of renewal of optimism and the human spirit - but not Jesus, contrary to Christianity's central tenet about the return to life on Easter morning of the crucified divine son of God.

Generally speaking, no divine anybody makes an appearance in West Hill's Sunday service liturgy.

There is no authoritative Big-Godism, as Rev. Gretta Vosper, West Hill's minister for the past 10 years, puts it. No petitionary prayers ("Dear God, step into the world and do good things about global warming and the poor"). No miracles-performing magic Jesus given birth by a virgin and coming back to life. No references to salvation, Christianity's teaching of the final victory over death through belief in Jesus's death as an atonement for sin and the omnipotent love of God. For that matter, no omnipotent God, or god.

Ms. Vosper has written a book, published this week - With or Without God: Why the Way We Live is More Important than What We Believe - in which she argues that the Christian church, in the form in which it exists today, has outlived its viability and either it sheds its no-longer credible myths, doctrines and dogmas, or it's toast.

She is considered one of the bright, if unconventional, minds within the United Church, Canada's largest Protestant Christian denomination. She holds a master of divinity degree from Queen's University and was ordained in 1992. She founded and chairs the Toronto-based Canadian Centre for Progressive Christianity.

Other Christian clergy and theologians have talked about the need to dramatically reform the doctrines of a faith that, with the exception of its vibrancy in the United States, has lost huge numbers of adherents throughout the Western world it once dominated as Christendom. In Canada, where 75 per cent of the population self-identifies as Christian, only about 16 per cent attend weekly services.

Addressing those statistics, what Ms. Vosper proposes is not so much reform as a scorched-earth approach.

A number of leading theologians in Britain - where the decline in adherents is more dramatic than in Canada - are on the same path, people like Richard Holloway, former bishop of Edinburgh and primate of the Scottish Episcopal (Anglican) Church, who has likened the Christian church to a self-service cafeteria stacked with messy trays of leftover food urgently in need of being thrown out.

Like Bishop Holloway, Ms. Vosper does not want to dress up the theological detritus - her words - of the past two millennia with new language in the hope of making it more palatable. She wants to get rid of it, and build on its ashes a new spiritual movement that will have relevance in a tight-knit global world under threat of human destruction.

She says there's been virtually a consensus among scholars for the past 30 years that the Bible is not some divine emanation - or in Ms. Vosper acronym, TAWOGFAT, The Authoritative Word of God For All Time - but a human project filled with contradictions and the conflicting worldviews and political perspectives of its authors.

And yet, she says, the liberal Christian churches, including her own, won't acknowledge that it is a human project, that it's wrong in parts and that, in the 21st century, it's no more useful as a spiritual and religious guide than a number of other books.

She says now that the work of biblical scholars has become publicly accessible, the churches and their clergy are caught living a lie that few people will buy much longer. "I just don't think we can placate those in the pews long enough to transition into a kind of new community that doesn't keep people away."

She wants salvation redefined to mean new life through removing the causes of suffering in the world. She wants the church to define resurrection as "starting over," "new chances." She wants an end to the image of God as an intervening all-powerful authority who must be appeased to avoid divine wrath; rather she would have congregations work together as communities to define God - or god - according to their own worked-out definitions of what is holy and sacred. She wants the eucharist - the symbolic eating and drinking of Jesus's body and blood to make the congregation part of Jesus's body - to be instead a symbolic experience of community love.

Theologians asked to comment on her book said they wouldn't until they've read it.

But one of her colleagues who knows her well, Rev. Rob Oliphant, the progressive pastor of Toronto's Eglinton St. George's United Church, said, "While I'm somewhat sympathetic to the aims of it all - getting rid of the nonsense and keeping the core faith - I think that there is something lacking in it all. Gone is metaphor, poetry, symbol, image, beauty, paradox."

Ms. Vosper said she and her congregation have tried hard not to lose those elements in their search for the sacred and the transcendent in life.

She met with members of her congregation last Sunday to discuss what the impact might be of her book.

End of article.

Whow. At last some religious leaders see clearly how nonsensical traditional religion is in the 21st century. They have to dump the supernatural in order to get respect. And about time too. They must have noted that people have had enough of the supernatural hocus pocus and stay away from institutions that are seem more and more unreal in these enlightened times.

This is a teeny weeny beginning in the slow unraveling of religious orthodoxy, which is simply incompatible with the modern world, and must go the way of astrology, sorcery and witchcraft.

Both are codified in scripture.

Both are codified in scripture.

Let us look at the problem in parts.

Part 1,

1. Sexism in the Catholic Church.

a) the refusal to allow women, single or married, to be priests using "fuzzy" references in scripture to make the case.

b) Paul the Prude as per Professor Bruce Chilton
An excerpt from his book, Rabbi Paul":

"He (Paul) feared the turn-on of women's voices as much as the sight of their hair and skin..... At one point he even suggests that the sight of female hair might distract any "pretty wingie talking fictional thingies" in church attendance (1 Cor. 11:10). Simply add Paul's thinking about women to the list of flaws in the foundations of Catholicism/Christianity and a major factor in the Church's treatment of women.

Professor Chilton btw is a Professor of Religion at Bard College and a priest at the Free Church of St. John in Barrytown, NY.

c. And it is very probable that the Islamic scribes in the plagiarizing from the NT used Paul's ideas about women and added them to the sexist koran.

Is Cal Thomas the most Pathetic Idiot in the public sphere???

Which bible do you read, Mr Thomas???

The one with multiple endorsements of slavery??

The one with innumerable demeaning references to women, many of which have been pointed out here???

Do you think WE are all idiots too???

we cant thank for the gifts, for they have been granted
for who grant have already thought and have appreciated

Rahmet prophet was the one who had been against slavery
after He passed away, people around went on in slobbery

may i ask pardon for this case which caused disturbance
who made trade on men and women had run out of instance

How can we reconcile Galatians with I Timothy? This would seem to be impossible under the assumption that the Bible is the word of God. The solution is to drop that assumption since it has no basis. Instead, we treat the Bible for what it is - a historical and cultural artifact, a mixture of fact and myth, with some laudable moral teachings and some horrid ones.

is there "boss" in the pronunciation "both"? so are racism and sexism related with "boss"? who is the boss?

all are one in Christ Jesus, that God made all in the image of.

I'm not sure what Bible Mr. Thomas reads, but in most Bibles, one can find these rather unequivocal statements:

"Timothy-1|2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection."

"Timothy-1|2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

"Timothy-1|2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve."

"Timothy-1|2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

"throw your child to the rocks", give your child for education to the family of rock, Essenis.

Is Cal Thomas quoting the Bible that stones women for adultery, but not men, or some other Bible? Is he quoting the Bible that sends the child of slaves to the father's owner? Is Cal Thomas really serious when he fails to note the inherent sexism found all over the Bible? Women are treated as property in much of the Old Testament and as less important Christians in the New Testament.

Perhaps the conflating of Mary Magdalene and another woman who was a prostitute is mere accident. It may not be an attempt to keep the most important of Jesus' disciples in a subservient position.

God made all human beings in His image, which is a spiritual, not a physical image.

Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

God made all human beings in His image, and you are all one in Christ Jesus, so You may be Christ too, then there shall not racism and sexism. so what religion shall address is You, the Christ.

Craig, can you help me please on "that", you cant improve on what?

TJ:

Said, "It's odd that Paul told the Galatians one thing and the Corinthians another."

Yeah, about as odd as a candidate saying one thing at a labor meeting and another at a management get together.

The Bible was constructed by selecting 72 out of over 850 "sacred scriptures" and doing a bailing wire with bubble gum binding together into a single story. Think about how bad it would be if all "sacred scriptures" had been included.

Those sacred scriptures were being used as individual and therefore less contradictory at least words of God by holy men to get a little free lunch. Constantine had them collected, sorted and the "correct" ones amalgamated into what we call the Bible thus turning free lunch into an industry.

Naturally, Constantine sat at the top of the "skyward" floating money pyramid. He collect both taxes and tithes. Since tithes are taxes paid to God and Constantine was the one getting them then he must have been God.

That shows two things. First that God is the best job there is for Constantine enjoyed the best life money could possibly buy. And, as the receiver of God's taxes Constantine must have been God. But of course, God willed the Bible be created and even paid, in gold for the first 50 copies.

Cal seeks wisdom from the Bible. There's the wisdom of God alright therein but he'll need to water down his version of just who or what God is. There are those who say Constantine was more like the Devil than God. Strange how the Bible says the same thing, Devil and not God.

You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but you can't fool all the people all the time. Cal fits in the second group. There's a lot of wisdom in being fooled, I suppose.

I got the dreaded "being examined by blog owner" message, too.

First things first. Racism as currently perceived is largely an invention of the 18th and 19th century of that period known by modernists as the enlightenment.

The Romans really did not pay much attention to the color of a man's skin. All that mattered was whether or not one was a Roman Citizen. In Reconquista Spain it wasn't skin color but religion that mattered.

CHURCHSTATEWALL said:

"How nice. I post 6 examples of Biblical sexism, and I get censored."

What the F is that about, Cal...you're allowing off-topic drivel posts like RAFAMDERGEM, yet censoring a poster who's consistently been coherent and thoughtful?!?!

Weak.

Craig

It's odd that Paul told the Galatians one thing and the Corinthians another.

could there be a budget for China and India please, in United Nations?

i had heard about times where women were in bed to save the life of their men, and men were in the bed to save the life of their women.

and also there were slavery and educational systems where men were degraded and women were employed.

it was hard times, we all have the seeds of love, compassion and wisdom, in our blood that all appeared in Christ, thanks to All Whom Reminds and cares.

Cal, you done it again!

There's no Jews? No Greeks? No slaves? No free men? Well, alright, theres places where its so difficult to tell the difference maybe we can say, "there is neither male nor female." San Francisco bars perhaps? But around these here parts men are men and the women sneak looks and giggle every time a man passes by and we know why.

The Bible, all sacred scriptures special deliver chaos. You need a source of wisdom besides the Bible.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul shows you that the Bible tells on itself. The Bible is the word of Devil, not God. Those who use it for their source of wisdom will forever get the story cockeyed, for its purpose is chaos. But those who use it can rake in the big money selling tickets to hell.

if You remind for four women, i can talk about servants in the house, for them to be in the house within marriage, for women to be protected for there were many men, before Ahmet prophet girls were given to the Earth,

there are families who give the first to the earth today, different than China and India rejecting because of lack of money, maybe similar to throwing girls to the fire.

and traditions during Ahmet prophet were loose and the more marriage into a house and family, the more faith and peace would it be, and the higher public with virtues saved.

i cant talk about the six years old girl He is said to have married with, because i dont know about the girl and traditions then. maybe to protect and save the girl of a high class man, from sexual teaching and slavery in temples.

How nice. I post 6 examples of Biblical sexism, and I get censored.

love is love, compassion is compassion, this reminds me of marriage and inheritance in islam after the passaway of ahmet prophet.

the reason is women are gentle and too soft to be able to stand forth in some serious cases. so two women are stronger whilst pressure of rough men, especially in justice.

at that time, women marry, men work. so the money is given to men more for business. moreover, fatherless and childless man in justice is the measures of faith and level of education of a man, to be a reference for money to be given, in case of inheritance to a man.

the reason why money is given to women in the marriage is for the wife to be strong at the beginning of the marriage, for the woman suffer not, taking the tough circumstances of the time into consideration.

i cant talk more than You have clearly stated for i dont know much after Quran translated into Turkish, i need to study in English and other versions, especially Egyptian one. sometimes words in Quran are pronunciational and combinational while receiving in the soul.

may i talk about circumcision of St BArnabas?

"as above so below", there are seven hormone secreting glands and first above is in relation with first below, the second above is in relation with the second below, so hypophysis is with testical ovary, epiphysis is with kidney, pancreas is with thyroid. so awareness of hypophysis is with genitals, like fig leaf of Adam and Eve, fig is a fruit representing universality.

in circumcision, the skin is taken off the penis to open the awareness of the child, as in vagina and virginity of the girl. it is before menstruation and sperm, for the first ones to be with wisdom.

the skin is taken off from the most bottom available and by this means it prolongs as far as the skin is available. amongst the pupils, this provides a similar length, and the potential of the individual begin as far as it is available in the skin.

Cal,

You're right, any type of bondage or enslavement goes against God's standards and His word. However, I believe we need to be clear here: We are all made in God's image and have a spirit but due to Adam's sin we all have the nature of Adam, the fallen man not the nature of God and cannot even come into His presence without falling on our knees in repentance and believing He is who He says He is. The body of Christ seems to be somewhat deceived by others telling them that they are all able to come into His holy presence. That is untrue by scripture's point of view. If you notice, I believe 90% of the body of Christ looks just like the world and those who live godly and holy lives are called to account as fanatical or fundamentalists. If we are to teach those who don't know, we need to be honest, in the spirit of love, or others will stay believing that they are equal to God and are in the nature of God which again, is not true.