Syndicated political columnist and “On Faith” panelist Cal Thomas has a twice-weekly column that appears in over 500 newspapers around the world. A graduate of American University, Thomas is a veteran of broadcast and print journalism. He has worked for NBC, CNBC, PBS television, and the Fox News Channel where he currently appears on the weekly media critique show, “Fox News Watch.” Thomas has authored ten books, including Blinded by Might: Can the Religious Right Save America?, A Freedom Dream, Public Persons and Private Lives, Book Burning, Liberals for Lunch, Occupied Territory, The Death of Ethics in America, Uncommon Sense and Things That Matter Most. His latest was The Wit and Wisdom of Cal Thomas. In 1995, Thomas was honored with a Cable Ace Award nomination for Best Interview Program. Other awards include a George Foster Peabody team reporting award, and awards from both the Associated Press and United Press International. Common Ground, which Thomas writes for USA Today, offers insightful discussion of contentious social issues with his friend and political counterpart, Bob Beckel. The two are working together on a book to be published in 2007.
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Cal Thomas
Syndicated political columnist
Syndicated political columnist and “On Faith” panelist Cal Thomas has a twice-weekly column that appears in over 500 newspapers around the world. A graduate of American University, Thomas is a veteran of broadcast and print journalism.
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So, since there are no gradations of sin, getting an extra $100 in a tax refund for a fictitious deduction is just as sinful as killing 6 million Jews. If the Bible really sees no difference, then the Bible is trash. JIM
I agree. I cannot make anyone believe. I never said I could. Only God can change hearts. However, I find no harm done if I challenge one's beliefs.
Daniel, I do hope that you understans my beliefs should be acknowledged and respected as well. If I believe that Jesus is the only way, then why are my beliefs being persecuted? I'm being accused of persecuting other's beliefs based upon me own beliefs. It's somewhat contradictory.
I do have to run this week. I have some business to attend to. I just hope that I havent' offended you. It was never my intention Daniel. In fact, I hope it would be ok to keep you in prayer and I just hope that you would allow me to ask God to guide us both on our earthly journey to know Him and walk with Christ. I hope you will allow me to do that.
How is it a sin, not to believe? People believe according to their will. A person cannot turn his beliefs on and off like water from a tap. If you tell someone to believe, what are you telling him? This whole notion comes very close to the coersion practised by Christian authority in former times. You cannot coerce or force belief. Belief is formed by a person's own inner will. If someone does not believe, then there is nothing that you can do about that. Your hands are tied. To insist is to show basic disrespect for the inner will of others, over which you, ultimately, have not control. Your persistence will only give the reputation as a pest.
And if others belittle and mock you for your beliefs, then that does not make it right that you do the same to them.
I asked for your forgiveness if I have offended you at all. If you choose not to forgive me if I was offensive, that's fine. I understand.
In case you don't know, I highly respect Jihadist. I've read several of her posts over the past few months and she really has shown that she not only deserves my respect, but also my humble gratitude for her thoughts. Although we may not agree on our faiths, I greatfully respect her opinion and her thoughts on this board.
My intention in responding to her was to see if she was being fair to Cal Thomas. I'm not exactly sure what the whole of Cal's beliefs are, but in his statement he acknowledged that it was a sin not to accept Christ. This is a truth claim that Christ is the only way to heaven. Jihadist responded to that saying that because she did not accept Christ or believe that He is the Son of God, then she would be in hell. I merely pointed out to her that to be fair, in Islam, if I do not accept Allah as a true God, I will be in hell. Both faiths assert that there is one way to heaven. Chrisianity by Jesus and Islam by Allah. I thought it to be unfair to ridicule Cal on his position, when her faith says the same thing. Is that so wrong? If Jihadist was simply responding in ironic fashion, then I must ask that you please forgive me for misinterpreting her words. What I read sounded serious to me and on threads like these I'm not sure how one can know for sure if one is being serious or not just by reading the words? I took her post to be serious. So, I gave a serious response.
Just so you know, I'm not being "self-righteous" when I claim that Christ is the only way. It's what I believe Daniel. I believe that with all my heart. It would seem that I am the victim of ridicule and abuse for my faith as well. It's not arrogance and self-righteousness to claim that. If that is so, then is Jesus arrogant and self-righteous? He's the one who made the claim. I'm just agreeing with Him.
First and foremost if I have offended you, forgive me, because that is not my intention. Secondly, look at all the posts that you have claimed that I have been insulting about. See how they all deal with the word "truth". I'm not belittling you when I make a logical conclusion that truth is not relative. The truth is that hell exists or does not exist. It cannot logically be both. The truth is that Jesus is the only way or not. He can't be both. Jesus claimed to be the only way. I believe Him. I'm not belittling you about that, I'm stating logical fact that truth is absolute by nature and I am being consistent in this.
BTW, I never said Jihadist was going to hell. I responded to her accusation to Cal Thomas about hell in Christianity by citing that Islam teaches that I too will be in hell if I resist Allah. Neither religion is tolerant of the other. They both make exclusive claims. I found that her post was somewhat contradicting considering the nature of the teachings of Islam. That is where I went with that.
I should have clarified when I said that Christianity is unpopular. I didn't mean that by the numbers of Christians, I meant that Christianity is unpopular to those who are not Christians because of it's intolerance to other worldviews. The Christian worldview claims that only one God exists and that Jesus is the only way to God. Those are exclusive claims. That means that if true, Islam, Hinduism, atheism, etc...are all false. If it's not true, then maybe one of the others are. It's a simple logical conclusion.
Anyway, forgive me again for any offenses. It was not my intention at all, but to simply apply logic to the truth claims of the christian worldview.
...and by the way, people believe as the do, according to their will. Do you suppose or imagine that you can control the beliefs of other people? Do you think that people can simply dismis the belief of their own will, and substitute in its place, your belief?
They cannot. Your arguments are futile and pointless. You are a naval-gazing Christian; reading and quoting and parsing the verses of the Bible, onward, every, endlessly. I am not so sure that makes you a very good Christian.
I think you have problems. I cannot sovle them for you. But I just hate for people like you to post your very negative opinions here, and then get away with the impression that you speak for Christians in general when you do not; it leaves a very bad impression for others.
How do you belittle my beliefs and the beliefs of others?
For starters, you told Jihadist, a grown woman, a Muslim, from Malaysia, that she would go go Hell if she did not believe in Jesus Christ. Are you so wrapped up in yourself that you do not see how wrong that is?
Then you said to me, "You can believe whatever you want and that's your free right, but I do wonder how anyone can justify in believing only what they WANT to believe instead of the whole truth of Christianity?"
That is belittling my beliefs because they do not coincide with yours.
Then you said, additionally about me, "It's all about you and your feelings....not the whole truth."
That is more belittleing.
And then you said more: "You are right though...not everyone is like me...if I believe in something, I will believe in it's entirety...not just what I selfishly want to believe. Compromising truth is never an option, my friend."
More belittling of my beliefs, and then a learing sarcastic, "my friend" tacked on the end, for good measure. (passive-aggressive).
And you said additionally about me "Some people just don't like truth."
More derision and belittleing.
And then you said, additionally about me "Because unlike you Daniel, I believe in truth."
And then you said to me "I'm not one of those "christians" that believe that we should read the Bible and agree with the parts we WANT but rip out the pages we don't like."
You are making fun of me, but you are telling a lie; you do read just the parts you want, and you do rip out the parts that you do not like; that which you say I do, you do.
You said Christianity is a tolerant religion, that is why is it so unpopular.
How is it unpopular? It is the dominant relgion in America; it is quite popular. All Christians are not intolerant; you are intolerant. You are intolerant, and then you hide behind God's skirts, to justify your intolerance. You say it with pride as though it is a good thing, but intolerance, is indeed, a very bad thing.
And lastly, my complaint with you still holds that you are talking for Jesus. Why don't you let him speak for himself? I have a Bible and I know how to read. I don't need you standing over my shoulder, telling me at every breath what Gods means by this and what God means by that.
And as I said before, it is fruitless to tell us how loving your are, or deny how hateful you are, because by the way you present yourself to the world, we can all tell. How am I wrong in this observation?
"GaryD and David T are men, proclaiming the word of God, for God, and by God, speaking as though they are God. And they mock and belittle the beliefs of all others, saying that all the others do not have the truth. Only David T and GaryD have God's truth, because they know God better than any of the rest of us, and they speak for God, and when they speak, that is it."
An easy question for you Daniel. Are you saying that Christianity, Islam and Hinduism are all truths? How is that possible? The God of the Bible says He is the only God. Isa 45:5. I should ask you, why don't you believe Him? How can you justify as a Christian that all other worldviews are true too?
BTW, stop saying I'm mocking and belitteling other worldviews. I'm not at all mocking anyone or any ideaology. That is misrepresenting me and a complete lie. I'm engaging in the truth claims of other worldviews. There is nothing wrong with that. I believe the God of the Bible when He says He is the only God. If He is the only God, then how logically can the other gods be true too?
Any specific examples of how I am turning people away from the Christian faith? How am I showing hate? You need to give an example of that if you claim such things, otherwise it just sounds like you are making false claims just because you don't agree with the exclusivity of Jesus Christ.
I am not being critical of Christians from an atheistic point of view; I am being critical from a Christian point of view.
I am criticizing you for your profound failure as a Christian, promoting a Christian faith that is shallow, callous, and mean in spirit[ I am criticising you for promoting a Christianity that is parochial and cloistered, and that is doing more damage than it is doing good, and is turning more people away from Christ than is bringing them to him.
The Bible is a big thick book; may you didn't read the whole thing.
GaryD and David T are men, proclaiming the word of God, for God, and by God, speaking as though they are God. And they mock and belittle the beliefs of all others, saying that all the others do not have the truth. Only David T and GaryD have God's truth, because they know God better than any of the rest of us, and they speak for God, and when they speak, that is it.
But they are just men, expressing their opinions. Theirs is no better than mine, nor anyone else's. I know what their reply will be; it will be "nonsense." Because they speak for God and through God, and the rest of us do not. But are not telling the truth.
The center piece of the Christian religion is "love." But it is the mark of modern conservative Christians that they do not love their neighbors. Their love is open and offered only to other Christians, but even then, it is reserved.
"Good works" have no meaning, only in some sects of Chritianity. But in other sects, "good works" count for alot. And praying to the "Christ of Atonement" is what Christians do in some sects, but in other sects, Christians pray to the "suffering Christ."
If you are a good and loving person, then you do not have to tell everybody that you are; people will know. And if you hate your fellow man, then you do not have to deny it, because, also, people will know.
"If you and GaryD don't hate anyone, then why do you make it a central part of your religion to condemn your neighbors? All that accomplishes is securing your reputations as pests. And if you want others to resepect your religion, then why do you belittle others? Because you have a special entitlement?"
Because unlike you Daniel, I believe in truth. I am not disrespecting anyone here. I believe pluralism is a good thing. It gives the world a competing number of worldviews so as each ideaology is not superior to another. I believe it is proper to engage in the questioning of ideaologies as long as respect is given to the individual.
I am not condemning anyone, but I do believe John 14:6. Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. I am a Christian and I believe Christ. I'm not one of those "christians" that believe that we should read the Bible and agree with the parts we WANT but rip out the pages we don't like. It is that kind of Christianity that is not Christ like. I have to ask you (since you say you are a Christian) if hell and the reality of hell and unbelievers going there is not true, then what did Christ save us from? And if indeed He saved us from hell by grace through faith, then shouldn't I be telling people about it? Since Christ said He is the way, the "TRUTH" and the Life, then shouldn't I believe Him? Shouldn't I also engage in other worldviews that claim to be exclusive truths and compare that to the exclusivity that Christ made? Think about that...
Daniel, Christianity is not a tolerant religion. That is why it's not popular. It makes exclusive claims that in the face of secular society is offensive. The word "TRUTH" is now a word that cannot be spoken anymore. There is no such thing as truth in the universities any longer. To claim that truth is absolute or that any one world view is "true" is to be intolerant and offensive. I happen to like truth and believe Him who by definition is the embodiment of truth....Jesus. He claimed not to just speak the truth, but to BE the TRUTH. John 14:6. Through Him can we justify knowledge. That is why in John 1 the word "Word" in greek is "logos". The very word we use for "logic". It says the "Word IS God". Logic is God. We can know that knowledge is only possible through Christ and if knowledge can be known, so can truth. I believe Jesus and I have no reason not to.
Since I believe Christ and the exclusive truth He claimed, give me one good reason why that makes me hateful or condemning?
If you and GaryD don't hate anyone, then why do you make it a central part of your religion to condemn your neighbors? All that accomplishes is securing your reputations as pests. And if you want others to resepect your religion, then why do you belittle others? Because you have a special entitlement?
God murdered children? Really? I thought man did with abortion...but anyway, that's another subject.
God cannot murder. He can kill though. There is a difference. Murder is the unlawful killing of an individual. Killing is justice enacted.
I think GaryD said it best above:
"What is love but a willingness to warn others of impending danger?"
If I truly believe what I do, and I don't care about you or your eternal being, then why am I on here telling you about accepting Christ? Think about this for a minute Luke. What do I have to gain if you come to Christ. In Christianity my "good works" are meaningless. They account for nothing. So is it by love that because I believe in hell, I'm warning you about it? I'm not asking you to join any particular church and start paying tithes or anything. What is my motive? The only logical explanation would be love. Even you cannot intellectually resist the fact that I must believe what I believe or why else would I waste my time preaching it to you? Isn't love what Gary said above? If you knew of hell, wouldn't you want to warn someone who may be in danger? If you didn't warn anyone about it, then wouldn't that be hate? Please think about that...
Luke, my point about truth is that there has to be truth. You cannot just believe in whatever you want, because truth conforms to reality. If the Christian worldview is true (which I believe it is) then maybe it deserves some consideration. Eternity is a long time to be wrong. I know it's much easier for the sake of tolerance to just say, believe what you want, it's all truth. "We are all on our way to the top of the mountain but we all just take different paths. No matter what we all end up on the top". That is not reality. That is the illogic of relative truth.
Luke, just consider...if the Christian worldview is possible. Can it answer all philisophical questions? Can meaning, purpose and unity all be conformed into one worldview. Can love, justice, hope and forgiveness be conformed into one single event? It did...on the cross! Just maybe, it is truth Luke. I have experience this life changing truth first hand and I cannot be selfish in keeping it to myself. If I had a trumpet loud enough I would proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world. At least I can do it here.
I know it will be rejected, because the Gospel makes you look at your own heart. Giving your life over to Christ is not easy. It takes humbleness and a willingness to admit the reality of the condition of the human heart with is full of evil. Some people would rather keep their lives of sin instead of being accountable to a higher being. I do understand.
In all, I just wanted to tell you I don't hate anyone. I don't hate you even if you never came to Christ. I just hope for you because of what I know to be truth. And I will pray for you.
So David, prove that is true. The truth should be easy to prove, after all, you know it and live it. Show it to me. Your God abandoned humanity when he started murdering children. Seems he only looks good on paper. I don't even care if Hell is my destination. I would be doing you lying, wrathful Christians a disservice but not allowing you the satisfaction of my eternal torment. You have distorted and ruined the meaning of love. Hope you enjoy your heaven with your God - you can all hate humanity together.
You remind us of George Carlin's essay on God that can be viewed at Youtube. Search George Carlin and watch "religion is bull$#*t"
George says (i paraphrase)
God is ready to damn you to eternal torment and burning of the flesh and weeping and gnashing of teeth if you don't do exactly as he says.....
but he LOVES you.............
GaryD is the one who cannot face the truth. He does not love his neighbor, unless his neighbor is a Christian, and even then, it must be a Christian who gets his seal of approval.
But who is he to set the standard of what God wants of us? When he quotes from the Bible, and then tells us what it means, how do any of us know that he is any more correct than all of the other people who post Bible quotes here, with their own personal interpretations? He is nobody, but a man, whose opinion counts as much as, but no more than, any other man's.
GaryD is the one who cannot face the truth. He does not love his neighbor, unless his neighbor is a Christian, and even then, it must be a Christian who gets his seal of approval.
But who is he to set the standard of what God wants of us? When he quotes from the Bible, and then tells us what it means, how do any of us know that he is any more correct than all of the other people who post Bible quotes here, with their own personal interpretations? He is nobody, but man, whose opinion counts as much as, but no more than, any other man's.
Dawn
I agree
"The clothes have no Emperor".
I hadn't seen it that way 'round before.
I can dig it. Makes sense 2me.
Religion's all props and clothes and painted scenery;
but there's nothing really there at all.
I think I found this out when I was a kid.
Nice that others see it that way too.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings....Not. It was you Mr. James who brought adultery into the conversation not I. So you don't want to be on a list with other varieties of sinners. Too bad. Had I the time and space the list would have been far more extensive and would as I have said included for more varieties of sin.
If you do not repent, like all the others you will spend eternity in hell. It is however not my job or that of any other to send you there or even to throw you in Jail for engaging in your chosen sin provided no one else is harmed thereby.
By the way the worst sin in the Bible isn't Homosexuality which is mentioned only 14 or so times but false teaching of which Christ said it would be better for such if they'd never been born and lying which is mention over a hundred times in Proverbs and Psalms alone.
Yeah Dawn;
and so much condemnation and bigotry from religious folk who hate hate hate,because the skygod made them do it.
As far as we know,there are NO gods,no heaven and no hell,except what's in some very old book,written by ignorant folks who knew nothing about the bigger picture of existence and the cosmos.
All it takes for religious idiocy to overrun the world is that agnostics ans atheists do nothing.
So let's speak up and keep speaking up,so the wackos know we are here.
It's the least we can do.
Gee....and to think that I thought I was the only one who noticed that the clothes have no emperor.
So many really smart and interesting posts from
so many non-believers and skeptics that it does my old heart a power of good to read.
Thank you...all is not lost to primitive superstition.There are still those who think for themselves,and don't buy the snake oil of religion.
There's more of us than anyone realizes.
Down with superstition. Let's hear it for reason,and just plain common sense!
GaryD equivocates on his bigoted remark about homosexuals by saying
"Mr. James I lump all of humanity in the group with sinners. If you have more than one sexual partner in your life and both were alive at the same time then you are an adulterer. One suspects that given today's Mores that the percent of adulterers among fully functioning adults in the United States today approaches 100%."
No Gary.
You grouped *homosexuals* with liars cheats and scoundrels.
You DID NOT group *adulterers* with these people, and you DID NOT say All Men are Sinners.
Your remark was a bigoted slam at homosexuals, and you should still apologize.
If you stopped and did a "think about it", you would conclude that Professor Crossan (and just about every other NT exegete) makes a lot of sense. But hey if you want to believe in a god that commited filicide, go right ahead. Plus have someone take your punishment???? Hmmm,
"Sorry, but the writings of desert-dwellers isn't true to me, consistent or not."
It doesn't matter what is true FOR YOU or not. What matters is what is truth.
Some people just don't like truth. I understand why. It leads to them seeing themselves for who they really are. If the truth is that everyone of us has evil in our hearts then you might want to read what the "desert dwellers" had to say. There is a cure.
GaryD,
Don't worry about HJ. He's been dead for 50 years now and he's harmless. I'm still not sure how he got internet in hell, though. I'm gonna have to find a verse for that one. :)
If Crossan spent have as much time trying to understand the Bible as he does trying to rewrite it he might occasionally get something right.
Mr. James I lump all of humanity in the group with sinners. If you have more than one sexual partner in your life and both were alive at the same time then you are an adulterer. One suspects that given today's Mores that the percent of adulterers among fully functioning adults in the United States today approaches 100%.
The problem is the "holy trinity". All the "threesome" gleanings from scripture fail attestation and time tests.
Bottom line- There is no trinity and if there were, god the father would be guilty of filicide which is an impossibility based on god, if this singularity exists, as being all good and merciful.
Again Professor Crossan captures the situation well with his statement in his book, Who is Jesus?
"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."
Oh, just to clarify.
all of my homosexual activity has taken place within the legal marriage that was performed here in Massachusetts, so it wasnt adultery.
"The only "deadly" sin is the rejection of Jesus the Christ as Savior and His payment for our sin."
Ah, yes... his 'payment'.
The diety of the Abrahamic death cults of desert monotheism (judaism, christianity, islam) was often 'appeased' by blood sacrifice. Sometimes, he even gave specific instructions on how to do it... and it is well documented in the Wholly Babble that he thoroughly enjoyed a good barbecue... and that a generous serving of blood COULD get him to change his mind... or ease him out of a major snit. So... when he set up his own son/self to be cruelly tortured and suffer a gruesome and agonizing death... to release mankind from the thrall of sin... in a perverse public spectacle of blood sacrifice... he sacrificed HIMSELF... TO himself... in order to APPEASE himself?
If not himself... then who?
And... we are supposed to think of this as a 'good' thing?
There are no bigots in heaven. There may be andprobably are some who once were bigots as well as some who once were homosexuals, or liars, or cheats or scoundrels, or abusers of women and assorted others but Christ died for them and the Holy spirit changed their hearts and they all have this in common none of them deserved heaven. All were granted entry into heaven not because of what they had done upon this earth but in spite of it. NOt because of what they did but because God the creator chose to become God incarnate to pay the debt they owed for their sins upon a cross of wood and then to spend three days in hell before he kicked open the gate to rescue the captives.
GaryD: and that just makes everything circular - the Bible has an answer for every doubt, and the nonbeliever has an answer for every faith proposition. When will each give up on the vain (and I now mean that in the sinful sense of the term) attempt at proof? God asked believers to accept the gift of faith. Presuming to have the ability to prove his existence through argument from any premise is the highest form of blasphemy, and no less than a rejection of the gift of faith, not to put too fine a point on it. Same argument for the non-believers, run the other way.
And Cal, the sin you describe is just a manifestation of pride. The rejection of Christ is simply the arrogance to credit yourself as able to define truth as you see fit.
I'm not sure how being a Christian makes me narrow minded. In fact being a Christian is how I can account for logic and reason. If you believe I should just be one of these "feel good" Christians and proclaim that you can believe whatever you want and it's true, then sorry. I just cannot commit to the illogic of relative truths.
If agreeing that atheism and Christianity and Hinduism and Islam are all "truths", how is that logical? I can say with confidence that at the very least I am being consistent. I believe the Bible and the Bible to be God's revelation of Himself to us. He says that there is no other gods and that in fact He does exist. That would mean that all other worldviews are false if that is true. Why should I be illogical and proclaim all worldviews "true" for the sake of being "nice". That would be intellectual dishonesty...and quite frankly Luke I'd rather be honest with all of you about my beliefs. I don't look down upon anyone with differing beliefs at all. I feel that it is totally proper to challenge the ideaology as long as the respect is given. I invite that challenge to myself as well.
But to be "close minded" as you say I am, is quite the opposite. I love hearing other worldviews. I would love to hear yours. But what I believe to be true makes me remain logical and consistent because truth is NOT relative.
So, like, how is the Bible the truth? Still waiting for it... To be Christian, you have to be narrow-minded or the logic doesn't add up. You have to believe that people are pushing away God's word all the time. That God is always trying to speak to them and they just won't listen. It may be creepy of us, but I find it even creepier that you are completely unable to understand anything outside of your scope. I have to believe, for sake of sanity, that you don't refuse to try to see our perspective but are completely unable to. It just sucks that I have to suffer for eternity because I can't bring myself to believe that the Bible is true. Shame on me, I suppose.
My point to Jihadist was simply that the Bible says those who do not accept Christ will go to hell. It's true Christian theology whether you like it or not. The Quran mentions the same thing. If you don't accept Allah, then you get to burn in hell. Neither religion is tolerant. It's the truth!
Now, I don't care if you believe in hell or not. The Bible says it's real. I base my Christian faith on the Bible and have no reason to insist that those who do not accept Christ will not be in hell. It's plainly written to suggest that. You can believe whatever you want and that's your free right, but I do wonder how anyone can justify in believing only what they WANT to believe instead of the whole truth of Christianity?
I actually would call that creepy. What's creepy is someone who can follow a particular religion but yet only believe in the parts they want to believe. That's what I call "selfish Christianity". It's all about you and your feelings....not the whole truth.
You are right though...not everyone is like me...if I believe in something, I will believe in it's entirety...not just what I selfishly want to believe. Compromising truth is never an option, my friend.
So concerned you prefer I God who is not interested in Justice? God the father and Got the son are but different manifestations of the same entity. One for whom Justice is important enough to die for.
I will try to refrain from being sarcastic, but I need a religious person to tell me how I can believe something that I believe to be absolutely untrue. You guys can make homosexuals into happily married heterosexuals, so why can't you make me Christian?
fi yuo cna raed tihs, YES..If you can read this you have a strange mind too. Can you read this? Only 55 people out of a 100 can...
I had the Dean of Humanities tell me once that I had a 1 in a 2000 brain.lol. I was not sure what he meant...
terra
yuo hvae a sgtrane mnid too. Cna yuo raed tihs? Olny 55 plepoe out of 100 can. i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The r set can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!
I was Christian. I guess I just unlearned God-language, or he gave up on me. God, Jesus, Allah...none of them ever said a word to me. You can tell me "I'm doing it wrong" all you want, but Jesus doesn't love me, despite what your ancient book says. If he did, he would give me a sign, and not force me around around the crazed psychopaths who praise his name. He would explain to me how God was right in the slaughtering of children for their parent's misgivings. How he cursed people for their parent's sins. If he isn't a coward, he will show himself. Not in the bottom of a coffee cup, but in something that means something to ME. Or does he just not speak my language? Also, I don't disagree that it is possible that the universe exploded into being, but I also don't believe that a floaty man with a taste for spiritually impregnating jewish women (I know, it was just one time) sent his son to peform a sin-to-hell transfer by being tortured, so, sorry. I did believe it because I knew nothing else, but it never made sense. Maybe I am stupid. Maybe it's not scientific to think that there was never a guy who walked on water, and fed a myriad of people with a little bread and some fish...but I don't believe it. How do you force yourself to believe something you know, deep down, is not true?
Henry: have to echo as often as possible the absurdity of people ignoring that had we all been switched at birth we would be damning those who hold the faith we now hold, and of believing that we are all simply fortunate to have been born of parents who happened to be born of parents who held the true faith, even though everyone else's kids believe the same thing. Some humility people? We are talking about pride as a sin here, right? Pride is the root of ridiculous claims that you are right and the rest of the world is wrong.
David T's reply to you would go under the category of "creepy."
"Creepy" was a slang word from the 1950's, which was so useful that it is still in current usage.
It means "bad," but I think it has connotations of a bug or insect crawling up your arm, and that feeling you get when you suddenly notice it there.
Not all Christians have such "creepy" beliefs as David T. I certainly do not believe that people are going to Hell simply because they have a religon that is different than my own. And I certainly do not believe in "right thinking" and "wrong thinking" nor that anyone could be compelled to believe anything, since the definition of belief implies that which is believed, freely.
I hope you do not think all Christians are as creepy as David T.
I said that theology is what people of authority tell us to believe. Then you wondered where I got my definition, and paraded to me a bunch of dicionary definitions.
I don't get my definitions for words anywhere; they are just there, intuitively, already inside my brain. I don't look up each word before I write them down.
You said that theology is the science of God. I know it is not a science; it is the opinion of men, on religious matters. And with regards to Christian theology, there is quite a wide range of varying Christian theologies, many of which are in conflict. There are armies of learned theologians who seek to descredit the opposing opinions. The accusation of "heretic" or "apostate" is a common "proof" that one's theological opinion is superios to the another's.
So your characterization of "...true Christian theology..." was actually not technically correct.
Thanks for your response - I would imagine that if someone were to point out to Richard Dawkins that contrary to his status as one of the most vocal atheists on the planet, he has been caught out as a closet ID enthusiast he'd probably stroke out!!
I have a few of his books and I've never seen anything in his writing that smacks of support for intelligent design as part of evolutionary theory (or cosmology). In fact he refutes these positions at every opportunity. While you can find scientists here and there that support the ID position (the strong anthropic view in cosmology) or that attempt to refute evolutionary theory, you must know that the factual evidence in support of said theory is monumental and growing by the day (and from every 'hard' science that you can name - not only biology). Evolutionary theory can be said to be on ground every bit as firm as gravity and the laws of thermodynamics!
But here's a concession of sorts - I know of a few quantum physicists that support the principle of Consciousness as the fundamental primary & absolute source of our 'material' universe, and they are thereby supporting some form of anthropic cosmology with this view. If we say that 'cosmic' consciousness is the one eternal principle, then in a sense we are supporting intelligent design, but without any of the singularly 'divine' attributes that are usually assigned to the person of God the Creator - this view is actually more allied with Buddhism or Hindu Vedanta than with Christianity (and it's still in the realm of metaphysics).
Finally, no metaphysical system or paradigm can supplant science as the method that must be used to thresh out the objective facts, truths, principles and laws of the material universe!!
I went back and skimmed the answersingenesis link in its entirety. My oh my. All the usual bogus pseudoscience. The "irreducible complexity" scam. The "mutations can't increase information" scam. Funny, I didn't see the "evolution violates thermodynamics" scam.
You ask, "My intentions are not to be mean, but what authority do you have to tell me, and everyone else on this forum where we can get our information from?"
I never told anyone where they can and cannot get their info from, and unlike religionists I made no appeal to authority as the basis for my case. It's just that I'm sufficiently well versed in science to recognize blatant crap when I see it, and answersingenesis is crap. The people you cite as authorities are charlatans. Read the Dover vs. Kitzmiller transcript.
I'll appeal to other posters (Mr. Mark?) for good introductory material on evolution, or for simple refutations of the typical creationist pseudoscience. It's funny that you consider the world's leading university science curriculae to be propagandist.
There are NO STANDARDS for showing that your belief is true and mine is false (ironic that true believers are the ones who usually moan that there are No Standards anymore).
I was raised a Mormon
We Mormons tell you that
If you Read the Book of Mormon
and
Pray to God intently
You will KNOW that it is "True."
I ask them: HOW will I KNOW that it is true?
They say:
You will get a "Burning in your chest."
I say:
"How do I know that the Burning I get proves that the Mormon God is "true"
when my friend Mohamed
gets the Same Burning in His Chest that tells him Allah (not Jesus)) is the only God?
A question that should be asked at the start of every discussion concerning religion. What are the standards of proof that will be employed to back up your claims of truth and are the truths that you proclaim subject to empirical observation and testing via the scientific method??
If scientific standards are not employed then what you really have are speculations, opinions, conjectures, and faith-based beliefs. No matter how hard you try, you will not have arrived at the 'truth' by these means.
To date, the metaphysics of religion is not amenable to the scientific method. Science-based theorums are always subject to change and/or modification with the appearance of contrary or contradictory evidence.
The tenets of religion seldom if ever change, and are never held to any kind of challenge or set of standards that would precipitate change but with a noted exception: The Dalai Lama has stated that if scientific evidence disproves basic tenets and doctrines associated with Buddhism then Buddhism must change to accomodate scietifically based evidence.
I'd dearly love to see other representatives of other religions dare to make such a promise!!
Can I ask you a few honest questions? My intentions are not to be mean, but what authority do you have to tell me, and everyone else on this forum where we can get our information from? If I recall, I specifically asked people to READ THE ARTICLE I posted so there would be no misunderstandings. And if you read it, you would realize that later on in the article, it tells you what Dr. Dawkins believes and why. They represent both sides of the issue, and explain what Dawkins believes in and why, and also what Creationists believe in and why. If you don't believe me, then go read it yourself. They do no
All Comments (105)
So, since there are no gradations of sin, getting an extra $100 in a tax refund for a fictitious deduction is just as sinful as killing 6 million Jews. If the Bible really sees no difference, then the Bible is trash. JIM
March 5, 2008 12:16 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 5, 2008 00:16
Daniel,
I agree. I cannot make anyone believe. I never said I could. Only God can change hearts. However, I find no harm done if I challenge one's beliefs.
Daniel, I do hope that you understans my beliefs should be acknowledged and respected as well. If I believe that Jesus is the only way, then why are my beliefs being persecuted? I'm being accused of persecuting other's beliefs based upon me own beliefs. It's somewhat contradictory.
I do have to run this week. I have some business to attend to. I just hope that I havent' offended you. It was never my intention Daniel. In fact, I hope it would be ok to keep you in prayer and I just hope that you would allow me to ask God to guide us both on our earthly journey to know Him and walk with Christ. I hope you will allow me to do that.
Thanks and God bless.
January 22, 2008 5:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 22, 2008 17:33
How is it a sin, not to believe? People believe according to their will. A person cannot turn his beliefs on and off like water from a tap. If you tell someone to believe, what are you telling him? This whole notion comes very close to the coersion practised by Christian authority in former times. You cannot coerce or force belief. Belief is formed by a person's own inner will. If someone does not believe, then there is nothing that you can do about that. Your hands are tied. To insist is to show basic disrespect for the inner will of others, over which you, ultimately, have not control. Your persistence will only give the reputation as a pest.
And if others belittle and mock you for your beliefs, then that does not make it right that you do the same to them.
January 22, 2008 3:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 22, 2008 15:34
In stating what are your believe without running down the beliefs or motivatons of others, you are at least improving.
January 22, 2008 8:03 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 22, 2008 08:03
Daniel,
I asked for your forgiveness if I have offended you at all. If you choose not to forgive me if I was offensive, that's fine. I understand.
In case you don't know, I highly respect Jihadist. I've read several of her posts over the past few months and she really has shown that she not only deserves my respect, but also my humble gratitude for her thoughts. Although we may not agree on our faiths, I greatfully respect her opinion and her thoughts on this board.
My intention in responding to her was to see if she was being fair to Cal Thomas. I'm not exactly sure what the whole of Cal's beliefs are, but in his statement he acknowledged that it was a sin not to accept Christ. This is a truth claim that Christ is the only way to heaven. Jihadist responded to that saying that because she did not accept Christ or believe that He is the Son of God, then she would be in hell. I merely pointed out to her that to be fair, in Islam, if I do not accept Allah as a true God, I will be in hell. Both faiths assert that there is one way to heaven. Chrisianity by Jesus and Islam by Allah. I thought it to be unfair to ridicule Cal on his position, when her faith says the same thing. Is that so wrong? If Jihadist was simply responding in ironic fashion, then I must ask that you please forgive me for misinterpreting her words. What I read sounded serious to me and on threads like these I'm not sure how one can know for sure if one is being serious or not just by reading the words? I took her post to be serious. So, I gave a serious response.
Just so you know, I'm not being "self-righteous" when I claim that Christ is the only way. It's what I believe Daniel. I believe that with all my heart. It would seem that I am the victim of ridicule and abuse for my faith as well. It's not arrogance and self-righteousness to claim that. If that is so, then is Jesus arrogant and self-righteous? He's the one who made the claim. I'm just agreeing with Him.
Good evening to you.
January 22, 2008 2:45 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 22, 2008 02:45
Jihadist was trying to make a point by being droll and ironic; I think that trumps humorless arrogance and self-righteousness.
January 22, 2008 12:53 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 22, 2008 00:53
Daniel,
First and foremost if I have offended you, forgive me, because that is not my intention. Secondly, look at all the posts that you have claimed that I have been insulting about. See how they all deal with the word "truth". I'm not belittling you when I make a logical conclusion that truth is not relative. The truth is that hell exists or does not exist. It cannot logically be both. The truth is that Jesus is the only way or not. He can't be both. Jesus claimed to be the only way. I believe Him. I'm not belittling you about that, I'm stating logical fact that truth is absolute by nature and I am being consistent in this.
BTW, I never said Jihadist was going to hell. I responded to her accusation to Cal Thomas about hell in Christianity by citing that Islam teaches that I too will be in hell if I resist Allah. Neither religion is tolerant of the other. They both make exclusive claims. I found that her post was somewhat contradicting considering the nature of the teachings of Islam. That is where I went with that.
I should have clarified when I said that Christianity is unpopular. I didn't mean that by the numbers of Christians, I meant that Christianity is unpopular to those who are not Christians because of it's intolerance to other worldviews. The Christian worldview claims that only one God exists and that Jesus is the only way to God. Those are exclusive claims. That means that if true, Islam, Hinduism, atheism, etc...are all false. If it's not true, then maybe one of the others are. It's a simple logical conclusion.
Anyway, forgive me again for any offenses. It was not my intention at all, but to simply apply logic to the truth claims of the christian worldview.
Take care Daniel.
January 22, 2008 12:07 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 22, 2008 00:07
...and by the way, people believe as the do, according to their will. Do you suppose or imagine that you can control the beliefs of other people? Do you think that people can simply dismis the belief of their own will, and substitute in its place, your belief?
They cannot. Your arguments are futile and pointless. You are a naval-gazing Christian; reading and quoting and parsing the verses of the Bible, onward, every, endlessly. I am not so sure that makes you a very good Christian.
I think you have problems. I cannot sovle them for you. But I just hate for people like you to post your very negative opinions here, and then get away with the impression that you speak for Christians in general when you do not; it leaves a very bad impression for others.
January 21, 2008 10:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 21, 2008 22:25
How do you belittle my beliefs and the beliefs of others?
For starters, you told Jihadist, a grown woman, a Muslim, from Malaysia, that she would go go Hell if she did not believe in Jesus Christ. Are you so wrapped up in yourself that you do not see how wrong that is?
Then you said to me, "You can believe whatever you want and that's your free right, but I do wonder how anyone can justify in believing only what they WANT to believe instead of the whole truth of Christianity?"
That is belittling my beliefs because they do not coincide with yours.
Then you said, additionally about me, "It's all about you and your feelings....not the whole truth."
That is more belittleing.
And then you said more: "You are right though...not everyone is like me...if I believe in something, I will believe in it's entirety...not just what I selfishly want to believe. Compromising truth is never an option, my friend."
More belittling of my beliefs, and then a learing sarcastic, "my friend" tacked on the end, for good measure. (passive-aggressive).
And you said additionally about me "Some people just don't like truth."
More derision and belittleing.
And then you said, additionally about me "Because unlike you Daniel, I believe in truth."
And then you said to me "I'm not one of those "christians" that believe that we should read the Bible and agree with the parts we WANT but rip out the pages we don't like."
You are making fun of me, but you are telling a lie; you do read just the parts you want, and you do rip out the parts that you do not like; that which you say I do, you do.
You said Christianity is a tolerant religion, that is why is it so unpopular.
How is it unpopular? It is the dominant relgion in America; it is quite popular. All Christians are not intolerant; you are intolerant. You are intolerant, and then you hide behind God's skirts, to justify your intolerance. You say it with pride as though it is a good thing, but intolerance, is indeed, a very bad thing.
And lastly, my complaint with you still holds that you are talking for Jesus. Why don't you let him speak for himself? I have a Bible and I know how to read. I don't need you standing over my shoulder, telling me at every breath what Gods means by this and what God means by that.
And as I said before, it is fruitless to tell us how loving your are, or deny how hateful you are, because by the way you present yourself to the world, we can all tell. How am I wrong in this observation?
January 21, 2008 10:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 21, 2008 22:04
Daniel,
you said,
"GaryD and David T are men, proclaiming the word of God, for God, and by God, speaking as though they are God. And they mock and belittle the beliefs of all others, saying that all the others do not have the truth. Only David T and GaryD have God's truth, because they know God better than any of the rest of us, and they speak for God, and when they speak, that is it."
An easy question for you Daniel. Are you saying that Christianity, Islam and Hinduism are all truths? How is that possible? The God of the Bible says He is the only God. Isa 45:5. I should ask you, why don't you believe Him? How can you justify as a Christian that all other worldviews are true too?
BTW, stop saying I'm mocking and belitteling other worldviews. I'm not at all mocking anyone or any ideaology. That is misrepresenting me and a complete lie. I'm engaging in the truth claims of other worldviews. There is nothing wrong with that. I believe the God of the Bible when He says He is the only God. If He is the only God, then how logically can the other gods be true too?
Any specific examples of how I am turning people away from the Christian faith? How am I showing hate? You need to give an example of that if you claim such things, otherwise it just sounds like you are making false claims just because you don't agree with the exclusivity of Jesus Christ.
January 21, 2008 7:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 21, 2008 19:05
I am not being critical of Christians from an atheistic point of view; I am being critical from a Christian point of view.
I am criticizing you for your profound failure as a Christian, promoting a Christian faith that is shallow, callous, and mean in spirit[ I am criticising you for promoting a Christianity that is parochial and cloistered, and that is doing more damage than it is doing good, and is turning more people away from Christ than is bringing them to him.
The Bible is a big thick book; may you didn't read the whole thing.
January 21, 2008 6:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 21, 2008 18:52
GaryD and David T are men, proclaiming the word of God, for God, and by God, speaking as though they are God. And they mock and belittle the beliefs of all others, saying that all the others do not have the truth. Only David T and GaryD have God's truth, because they know God better than any of the rest of us, and they speak for God, and when they speak, that is it.
But they are just men, expressing their opinions. Theirs is no better than mine, nor anyone else's. I know what their reply will be; it will be "nonsense." Because they speak for God and through God, and the rest of us do not. But are not telling the truth.
The center piece of the Christian religion is "love." But it is the mark of modern conservative Christians that they do not love their neighbors. Their love is open and offered only to other Christians, but even then, it is reserved.
"Good works" have no meaning, only in some sects of Chritianity. But in other sects, "good works" count for alot. And praying to the "Christ of Atonement" is what Christians do in some sects, but in other sects, Christians pray to the "suffering Christ."
If you are a good and loving person, then you do not have to tell everybody that you are; people will know. And if you hate your fellow man, then you do not have to deny it, because, also, people will know.
January 21, 2008 6:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 21, 2008 18:47
Daniel,
"If you and GaryD don't hate anyone, then why do you make it a central part of your religion to condemn your neighbors? All that accomplishes is securing your reputations as pests. And if you want others to resepect your religion, then why do you belittle others? Because you have a special entitlement?"
Because unlike you Daniel, I believe in truth. I am not disrespecting anyone here. I believe pluralism is a good thing. It gives the world a competing number of worldviews so as each ideaology is not superior to another. I believe it is proper to engage in the questioning of ideaologies as long as respect is given to the individual.
I am not condemning anyone, but I do believe John 14:6. Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. I am a Christian and I believe Christ. I'm not one of those "christians" that believe that we should read the Bible and agree with the parts we WANT but rip out the pages we don't like. It is that kind of Christianity that is not Christ like. I have to ask you (since you say you are a Christian) if hell and the reality of hell and unbelievers going there is not true, then what did Christ save us from? And if indeed He saved us from hell by grace through faith, then shouldn't I be telling people about it? Since Christ said He is the way, the "TRUTH" and the Life, then shouldn't I believe Him? Shouldn't I also engage in other worldviews that claim to be exclusive truths and compare that to the exclusivity that Christ made? Think about that...
Daniel, Christianity is not a tolerant religion. That is why it's not popular. It makes exclusive claims that in the face of secular society is offensive. The word "TRUTH" is now a word that cannot be spoken anymore. There is no such thing as truth in the universities any longer. To claim that truth is absolute or that any one world view is "true" is to be intolerant and offensive. I happen to like truth and believe Him who by definition is the embodiment of truth....Jesus. He claimed not to just speak the truth, but to BE the TRUTH. John 14:6. Through Him can we justify knowledge. That is why in John 1 the word "Word" in greek is "logos". The very word we use for "logic". It says the "Word IS God". Logic is God. We can know that knowledge is only possible through Christ and if knowledge can be known, so can truth. I believe Jesus and I have no reason not to.
Since I believe Christ and the exclusive truth He claimed, give me one good reason why that makes me hateful or condemning?
Thanks Daniel
Have a good day.
January 21, 2008 6:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 21, 2008 18:16
If you and GaryD don't hate anyone, then why do you make it a central part of your religion to condemn your neighbors? All that accomplishes is securing your reputations as pests. And if you want others to resepect your religion, then why do you belittle others? Because you have a special entitlement?
January 21, 2008 5:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 21, 2008 17:47
Luke,
God murdered children? Really? I thought man did with abortion...but anyway, that's another subject.
God cannot murder. He can kill though. There is a difference. Murder is the unlawful killing of an individual. Killing is justice enacted.
I think GaryD said it best above:
"What is love but a willingness to warn others of impending danger?"
If I truly believe what I do, and I don't care about you or your eternal being, then why am I on here telling you about accepting Christ? Think about this for a minute Luke. What do I have to gain if you come to Christ. In Christianity my "good works" are meaningless. They account for nothing. So is it by love that because I believe in hell, I'm warning you about it? I'm not asking you to join any particular church and start paying tithes or anything. What is my motive? The only logical explanation would be love. Even you cannot intellectually resist the fact that I must believe what I believe or why else would I waste my time preaching it to you? Isn't love what Gary said above? If you knew of hell, wouldn't you want to warn someone who may be in danger? If you didn't warn anyone about it, then wouldn't that be hate? Please think about that...
Luke, my point about truth is that there has to be truth. You cannot just believe in whatever you want, because truth conforms to reality. If the Christian worldview is true (which I believe it is) then maybe it deserves some consideration. Eternity is a long time to be wrong. I know it's much easier for the sake of tolerance to just say, believe what you want, it's all truth. "We are all on our way to the top of the mountain but we all just take different paths. No matter what we all end up on the top". That is not reality. That is the illogic of relative truth.
Luke, just consider...if the Christian worldview is possible. Can it answer all philisophical questions? Can meaning, purpose and unity all be conformed into one worldview. Can love, justice, hope and forgiveness be conformed into one single event? It did...on the cross! Just maybe, it is truth Luke. I have experience this life changing truth first hand and I cannot be selfish in keeping it to myself. If I had a trumpet loud enough I would proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world. At least I can do it here.
I know it will be rejected, because the Gospel makes you look at your own heart. Giving your life over to Christ is not easy. It takes humbleness and a willingness to admit the reality of the condition of the human heart with is full of evil. Some people would rather keep their lives of sin instead of being accountable to a higher being. I do understand.
In all, I just wanted to tell you I don't hate anyone. I don't hate you even if you never came to Christ. I just hope for you because of what I know to be truth. And I will pray for you.
take care luke.
January 21, 2008 4:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 21, 2008 16:36
So David, prove that is true. The truth should be easy to prove, after all, you know it and live it. Show it to me. Your God abandoned humanity when he started murdering children. Seems he only looks good on paper. I don't even care if Hell is my destination. I would be doing you lying, wrathful Christians a disservice but not allowing you the satisfaction of my eternal torment. You have distorted and ruined the meaning of love. Hope you enjoy your heaven with your God - you can all hate humanity together.
January 21, 2008 2:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 21, 2008 14:02
GaryD
You remind us of George Carlin's essay on God that can be viewed at Youtube. Search George Carlin and watch "religion is bull$#*t"
George says (i paraphrase)
God is ready to damn you to eternal torment and burning of the flesh and weeping and gnashing of teeth if you don't do exactly as he says.....
but he LOVES you.............
January 21, 2008 12:01 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 21, 2008 00:01
Nonsense Daniel. What is love but a willingness to warn others of impending danger?
January 20, 2008 7:43 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 20, 2008 19:43
GaryD is the one who cannot face the truth. He does not love his neighbor, unless his neighbor is a Christian, and even then, it must be a Christian who gets his seal of approval.
But who is he to set the standard of what God wants of us? When he quotes from the Bible, and then tells us what it means, how do any of us know that he is any more correct than all of the other people who post Bible quotes here, with their own personal interpretations? He is nobody, but a man, whose opinion counts as much as, but no more than, any other man's.
January 20, 2008 6:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 20, 2008 18:42
GaryD is the one who cannot face the truth. He does not love his neighbor, unless his neighbor is a Christian, and even then, it must be a Christian who gets his seal of approval.
But who is he to set the standard of what God wants of us? When he quotes from the Bible, and then tells us what it means, how do any of us know that he is any more correct than all of the other people who post Bible quotes here, with their own personal interpretations? He is nobody, but man, whose opinion counts as much as, but no more than, any other man's.
January 20, 2008 6:40 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 20, 2008 18:40
GaryD
Your preoccupation and evident satisfaction that sinners are damned to torment in hell
is a sick attitude, malevolent and sociopathic (as well as un-Christlike)
and a perfect example of the poison that religion often implants in "minds" like your own.
January 20, 2008 3:22 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 20, 2008 15:22
Dawn
I agree
"The clothes have no Emperor".
I hadn't seen it that way 'round before.
I can dig it. Makes sense 2me.
Religion's all props and clothes and painted scenery;
but there's nothing really there at all.
I think I found this out when I was a kid.
Nice that others see it that way too.
January 20, 2008 1:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 20, 2008 13:48
Sorry if I hurt your feelings....Not. It was you Mr. James who brought adultery into the conversation not I. So you don't want to be on a list with other varieties of sinners. Too bad. Had I the time and space the list would have been far more extensive and would as I have said included for more varieties of sin.
If you do not repent, like all the others you will spend eternity in hell. It is however not my job or that of any other to send you there or even to throw you in Jail for engaging in your chosen sin provided no one else is harmed thereby.
By the way the worst sin in the Bible isn't Homosexuality which is mentioned only 14 or so times but false teaching of which Christ said it would be better for such if they'd never been born and lying which is mention over a hundred times in Proverbs and Psalms alone.
January 20, 2008 1:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 20, 2008 13:41
Yeah Dawn;
and so much condemnation and bigotry from religious folk who hate hate hate,because the skygod made them do it.
As far as we know,there are NO gods,no heaven and no hell,except what's in some very old book,written by ignorant folks who knew nothing about the bigger picture of existence and the cosmos.
All it takes for religious idiocy to overrun the world is that agnostics ans atheists do nothing.
So let's speak up and keep speaking up,so the wackos know we are here.
It's the least we can do.
January 20, 2008 1:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 20, 2008 13:36
Gee....and to think that I thought I was the only one who noticed that the clothes have no emperor.
So many really smart and interesting posts from
so many non-believers and skeptics that it does my old heart a power of good to read.
Thank you...all is not lost to primitive superstition.There are still those who think for themselves,and don't buy the snake oil of religion.
There's more of us than anyone realizes.
Down with superstition. Let's hear it for reason,and just plain common sense!
January 20, 2008 1:23 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 20, 2008 13:23
the previous post was mine.
January 20, 2008 1:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 20, 2008 13:02
GaryD equivocates on his bigoted remark about homosexuals by saying
"Mr. James I lump all of humanity in the group with sinners. If you have more than one sexual partner in your life and both were alive at the same time then you are an adulterer. One suspects that given today's Mores that the percent of adulterers among fully functioning adults in the United States today approaches 100%."
No Gary.
You grouped *homosexuals* with liars cheats and scoundrels.
You DID NOT group *adulterers* with these people, and you DID NOT say All Men are Sinners.
Your remark was a bigoted slam at homosexuals, and you should still apologize.
January 20, 2008 12:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 20, 2008 12:55
GaryD,
If you stopped and did a "think about it", you would conclude that Professor Crossan (and just about every other NT exegete) makes a lot of sense. But hey if you want to believe in a god that commited filicide, go right ahead. Plus have someone take your punishment???? Hmmm,
January 20, 2008 1:39 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 20, 2008 01:39
Luke says,
"Sorry, but the writings of desert-dwellers isn't true to me, consistent or not."
It doesn't matter what is true FOR YOU or not. What matters is what is truth.
Some people just don't like truth. I understand why. It leads to them seeing themselves for who they really are. If the truth is that everyone of us has evil in our hearts then you might want to read what the "desert dwellers" had to say. There is a cure.
GaryD,
Don't worry about HJ. He's been dead for 50 years now and he's harmless. I'm still not sure how he got internet in hell, though. I'm gonna have to find a verse for that one. :)
Luv ya HJ. :)
January 19, 2008 11:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 19, 2008 23:52
If Crossan spent have as much time trying to understand the Bible as he does trying to rewrite it he might occasionally get something right.
Mr. James I lump all of humanity in the group with sinners. If you have more than one sexual partner in your life and both were alive at the same time then you are an adulterer. One suspects that given today's Mores that the percent of adulterers among fully functioning adults in the United States today approaches 100%.
January 19, 2008 11:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 19, 2008 23:41
GaryD,
The problem is the "holy trinity". All the "threesome" gleanings from scripture fail attestation and time tests.
Bottom line- There is no trinity and if there were, god the father would be guilty of filicide which is an impossibility based on god, if this singularity exists, as being all good and merciful.
Again Professor Crossan captures the situation well with his statement in his book, Who is Jesus?
"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."
January 19, 2008 11:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 19, 2008 23:05
GaryD
Oh, just to clarify.
all of my homosexual activity has taken place within the legal marriage that was performed here in Massachusetts, so it wasnt adultery.
January 19, 2008 10:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 19, 2008 22:46
GaryD
I am probably a homosexual,
and find it quite offensive and outrageous to be grouped
by you
with bigots, liars, cheats and scoundrels.
Would you please issue me and "my kind" an apology.
Henry James
January 19, 2008 10:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 19, 2008 22:44
"The only "deadly" sin is the rejection of Jesus the Christ as Savior and His payment for our sin."
Ah, yes... his 'payment'.
The diety of the Abrahamic death cults of desert monotheism (judaism, christianity, islam) was often 'appeased' by blood sacrifice. Sometimes, he even gave specific instructions on how to do it... and it is well documented in the Wholly Babble that he thoroughly enjoyed a good barbecue... and that a generous serving of blood COULD get him to change his mind... or ease him out of a major snit. So... when he set up his own son/self to be cruelly tortured and suffer a gruesome and agonizing death... to release mankind from the thrall of sin... in a perverse public spectacle of blood sacrifice... he sacrificed HIMSELF... TO himself... in order to APPEASE himself?
If not himself... then who?
And... we are supposed to think of this as a 'good' thing?
January 19, 2008 3:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 19, 2008 15:44
There are no bigots in heaven. There may be andprobably are some who once were bigots as well as some who once were homosexuals, or liars, or cheats or scoundrels, or abusers of women and assorted others but Christ died for them and the Holy spirit changed their hearts and they all have this in common none of them deserved heaven. All were granted entry into heaven not because of what they had done upon this earth but in spite of it. NOt because of what they did but because God the creator chose to become God incarnate to pay the debt they owed for their sins upon a cross of wood and then to spend three days in hell before he kicked open the gate to rescue the captives.
January 19, 2008 1:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 19, 2008 13:26
Sorry, but the writings of desert-dwellers isn't true to me, consistent or not.
January 19, 2008 9:16 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 19, 2008 09:16
GaryD: and that just makes everything circular - the Bible has an answer for every doubt, and the nonbeliever has an answer for every faith proposition. When will each give up on the vain (and I now mean that in the sinful sense of the term) attempt at proof? God asked believers to accept the gift of faith. Presuming to have the ability to prove his existence through argument from any premise is the highest form of blasphemy, and no less than a rejection of the gift of faith, not to put too fine a point on it. Same argument for the non-believers, run the other way.
And Cal, the sin you describe is just a manifestation of pride. The rejection of Christ is simply the arrogance to credit yourself as able to define truth as you see fit.
January 17, 2008 11:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 23:37
Good Job David but the Bible also says " To the natural man the things of the spirit are foolish...
January 17, 2008 10:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 22:57
Luke,
I'm not sure how being a Christian makes me narrow minded. In fact being a Christian is how I can account for logic and reason. If you believe I should just be one of these "feel good" Christians and proclaim that you can believe whatever you want and it's true, then sorry. I just cannot commit to the illogic of relative truths.
If agreeing that atheism and Christianity and Hinduism and Islam are all "truths", how is that logical? I can say with confidence that at the very least I am being consistent. I believe the Bible and the Bible to be God's revelation of Himself to us. He says that there is no other gods and that in fact He does exist. That would mean that all other worldviews are false if that is true. Why should I be illogical and proclaim all worldviews "true" for the sake of being "nice". That would be intellectual dishonesty...and quite frankly Luke I'd rather be honest with all of you about my beliefs. I don't look down upon anyone with differing beliefs at all. I feel that it is totally proper to challenge the ideaology as long as the respect is given. I invite that challenge to myself as well.
But to be "close minded" as you say I am, is quite the opposite. I love hearing other worldviews. I would love to hear yours. But what I believe to be true makes me remain logical and consistent because truth is NOT relative.
I hope you understand this.
January 17, 2008 10:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 22:53
So, like, how is the Bible the truth? Still waiting for it... To be Christian, you have to be narrow-minded or the logic doesn't add up. You have to believe that people are pushing away God's word all the time. That God is always trying to speak to them and they just won't listen. It may be creepy of us, but I find it even creepier that you are completely unable to understand anything outside of your scope. I have to believe, for sake of sanity, that you don't refuse to try to see our perspective but are completely unable to. It just sucks that I have to suffer for eternity because I can't bring myself to believe that the Bible is true. Shame on me, I suppose.
January 17, 2008 7:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 19:24
Daniel in the lion's Den,
Creepy huh? Nice choice of words.
My point to Jihadist was simply that the Bible says those who do not accept Christ will go to hell. It's true Christian theology whether you like it or not. The Quran mentions the same thing. If you don't accept Allah, then you get to burn in hell. Neither religion is tolerant. It's the truth!
Now, I don't care if you believe in hell or not. The Bible says it's real. I base my Christian faith on the Bible and have no reason to insist that those who do not accept Christ will not be in hell. It's plainly written to suggest that. You can believe whatever you want and that's your free right, but I do wonder how anyone can justify in believing only what they WANT to believe instead of the whole truth of Christianity?
I actually would call that creepy. What's creepy is someone who can follow a particular religion but yet only believe in the parts they want to believe. That's what I call "selfish Christianity". It's all about you and your feelings....not the whole truth.
You are right though...not everyone is like me...if I believe in something, I will believe in it's entirety...not just what I selfishly want to believe. Compromising truth is never an option, my friend.
Best to you.
January 17, 2008 7:14 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 19:14
So concerned you prefer I God who is not interested in Justice? God the father and Got the son are but different manifestations of the same entity. One for whom Justice is important enough to die for.
January 17, 2008 6:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 18:32
I will try to refrain from being sarcastic, but I need a religious person to tell me how I can believe something that I believe to be absolutely untrue. You guys can make homosexuals into happily married heterosexuals, so why can't you make me Christian?
January 17, 2008 6:14 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 18:14
Gabby,
Can you read this?
fi yuo cna raed tihs, YES..If you can read this you have a strange mind too. Can you read this? Only 55 people out of a 100 can...
I had the Dean of Humanities tell me once that I had a 1 in a 2000 brain.lol. I was not sure what he meant...
terra
yuo hvae a sgtrane mnid too. Cna yuo raed tihs? Olny 55 plepoe out of 100 can. i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The r set can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!
January 17, 2008 4:21 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 16:21
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so."- Mark Twain
Welcome, Luke.
January 17, 2008 3:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 15:28
I was Christian. I guess I just unlearned God-language, or he gave up on me. God, Jesus, Allah...none of them ever said a word to me. You can tell me "I'm doing it wrong" all you want, but Jesus doesn't love me, despite what your ancient book says. If he did, he would give me a sign, and not force me around around the crazed psychopaths who praise his name. He would explain to me how God was right in the slaughtering of children for their parent's misgivings. How he cursed people for their parent's sins. If he isn't a coward, he will show himself. Not in the bottom of a coffee cup, but in something that means something to ME. Or does he just not speak my language? Also, I don't disagree that it is possible that the universe exploded into being, but I also don't believe that a floaty man with a taste for spiritually impregnating jewish women (I know, it was just one time) sent his son to peform a sin-to-hell transfer by being tortured, so, sorry. I did believe it because I knew nothing else, but it never made sense. Maybe I am stupid. Maybe it's not scientific to think that there was never a guy who walked on water, and fed a myriad of people with a little bread and some fish...but I don't believe it. How do you force yourself to believe something you know, deep down, is not true?
January 17, 2008 3:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 15:13
Another drive-by column by On Faith's resident fundie.
Yawn...
January 17, 2008 1:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 13:08
Henry: have to echo as often as possible the absurdity of people ignoring that had we all been switched at birth we would be damning those who hold the faith we now hold, and of believing that we are all simply fortunate to have been born of parents who happened to be born of parents who held the true faith, even though everyone else's kids believe the same thing. Some humility people? We are talking about pride as a sin here, right? Pride is the root of ridiculous claims that you are right and the rest of the world is wrong.
January 17, 2008 12:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 12:48
Ken Ham (he IS a college graduate, anyway, although he doesn't seem to have any graduate education):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Ham
An answer to noanswersingenesis (I haven't reviewed it so don't reply with nits):
http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/index.htm
January 17, 2008 11:50 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 11:50
Dear Jihadist
David T's reply to you would go under the category of "creepy."
"Creepy" was a slang word from the 1950's, which was so useful that it is still in current usage.
It means "bad," but I think it has connotations of a bug or insect crawling up your arm, and that feeling you get when you suddenly notice it there.
Not all Christians have such "creepy" beliefs as David T. I certainly do not believe that people are going to Hell simply because they have a religon that is different than my own. And I certainly do not believe in "right thinking" and "wrong thinking" nor that anyone could be compelled to believe anything, since the definition of belief implies that which is believed, freely.
I hope you do not think all Christians are as creepy as David T.
January 17, 2008 11:41 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 11:41
Dear Someone
I said that theology is what people of authority tell us to believe. Then you wondered where I got my definition, and paraded to me a bunch of dicionary definitions.
I don't get my definitions for words anywhere; they are just there, intuitively, already inside my brain. I don't look up each word before I write them down.
You said that theology is the science of God. I know it is not a science; it is the opinion of men, on religious matters. And with regards to Christian theology, there is quite a wide range of varying Christian theologies, many of which are in conflict. There are armies of learned theologians who seek to descredit the opposing opinions. The accusation of "heretic" or "apostate" is a common "proof" that one's theological opinion is superios to the another's.
So your characterization of "...true Christian theology..." was actually not technically correct.
That is all I meant.
January 17, 2008 11:29 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 11:29
Someone -
Thanks for your response - I would imagine that if someone were to point out to Richard Dawkins that contrary to his status as one of the most vocal atheists on the planet, he has been caught out as a closet ID enthusiast he'd probably stroke out!!
I have a few of his books and I've never seen anything in his writing that smacks of support for intelligent design as part of evolutionary theory (or cosmology). In fact he refutes these positions at every opportunity. While you can find scientists here and there that support the ID position (the strong anthropic view in cosmology) or that attempt to refute evolutionary theory, you must know that the factual evidence in support of said theory is monumental and growing by the day (and from every 'hard' science that you can name - not only biology). Evolutionary theory can be said to be on ground every bit as firm as gravity and the laws of thermodynamics!
But here's a concession of sorts - I know of a few quantum physicists that support the principle of Consciousness as the fundamental primary & absolute source of our 'material' universe, and they are thereby supporting some form of anthropic cosmology with this view. If we say that 'cosmic' consciousness is the one eternal principle, then in a sense we are supporting intelligent design, but without any of the singularly 'divine' attributes that are usually assigned to the person of God the Creator - this view is actually more allied with Buddhism or Hindu Vedanta than with Christianity (and it's still in the realm of metaphysics).
Finally, no metaphysical system or paradigm can supplant science as the method that must be used to thresh out the objective facts, truths, principles and laws of the material universe!!
January 17, 2008 11:26 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 11:26
Someone,
I went back and skimmed the answersingenesis link in its entirety. My oh my. All the usual bogus pseudoscience. The "irreducible complexity" scam. The "mutations can't increase information" scam. Funny, I didn't see the "evolution violates thermodynamics" scam.
You ask, "My intentions are not to be mean, but what authority do you have to tell me, and everyone else on this forum where we can get our information from?"
I never told anyone where they can and cannot get their info from, and unlike religionists I made no appeal to authority as the basis for my case. It's just that I'm sufficiently well versed in science to recognize blatant crap when I see it, and answersingenesis is crap. The people you cite as authorities are charlatans. Read the Dover vs. Kitzmiller transcript.
I'll appeal to other posters (Mr. Mark?) for good introductory material on evolution, or for simple refutations of the typical creationist pseudoscience. It's funny that you consider the world's leading university science curriculae to be propagandist.
I know there's no convincing you.
I stand by my original post.
January 17, 2008 10:57 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 10:57
Terry
Aptly and succinctly put:
There are NO STANDARDS for showing that your belief is true and mine is false (ironic that true believers are the ones who usually moan that there are No Standards anymore).
I was raised a Mormon
We Mormons tell you that
If you Read the Book of Mormon
and
Pray to God intently
You will KNOW that it is "True."
I ask them: HOW will I KNOW that it is true?
They say:
You will get a "Burning in your chest."
I say:
"How do I know that the Burning I get proves that the Mormon God is "true"
when my friend Mohamed
gets the Same Burning in His Chest that tells him Allah (not Jesus)) is the only God?
Why am I right and he's wrong? Or vice versa?
They haven't answered me yet.
January 17, 2008 10:41 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 10:41
A question that should be asked at the start of every discussion concerning religion. What are the standards of proof that will be employed to back up your claims of truth and are the truths that you proclaim subject to empirical observation and testing via the scientific method??
If scientific standards are not employed then what you really have are speculations, opinions, conjectures, and faith-based beliefs. No matter how hard you try, you will not have arrived at the 'truth' by these means.
To date, the metaphysics of religion is not amenable to the scientific method. Science-based theorums are always subject to change and/or modification with the appearance of contrary or contradictory evidence.
The tenets of religion seldom if ever change, and are never held to any kind of challenge or set of standards that would precipitate change but with a noted exception: The Dalai Lama has stated that if scientific evidence disproves basic tenets and doctrines associated with Buddhism then Buddhism must change to accomodate scietifically based evidence.
I'd dearly love to see other representatives of other religions dare to make such a promise!!
Instead, we have the following:
- religion = faith-based beliefs.
- science = empirically fact-based theorums.
It's important to note these differences from the start.
January 17, 2008 10:31 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 17, 2008 10:31
Christ Everett
Can I ask you a few honest questions? My intentions are not to be mean, but what authority do you have to tell me, and everyone else on this forum where we can get our information from? If I recall, I specifically asked people to READ THE ARTICLE I posted so there would be no misunderstandings. And if you read it, you would realize that later on in the article, it tells you what Dr. Dawkins believes and why. They represent both sides of the issue, and explain what Dawkins believes in and why, and also what Creationists believe in and why. If you don't believe me, then go read it yourself. They do no