Syndicated political columnist and “On Faith” panelist Cal Thomas has a twice-weekly column that appears in over 500 newspapers around the world. A graduate of American University, Thomas is a veteran of broadcast and print journalism. He has worked for NBC, CNBC, PBS television, and the Fox News Channel where he currently appears on the weekly media critique show, “Fox News Watch.” Thomas has authored ten books, including Blinded by Might: Can the Religious Right Save America?, A Freedom Dream, Public Persons and Private Lives, Book Burning, Liberals for Lunch, Occupied Territory, The Death of Ethics in America, Uncommon Sense and Things That Matter Most. His latest was The Wit and Wisdom of Cal Thomas. In 1995, Thomas was honored with a Cable Ace Award nomination for Best Interview Program. Other awards include a George Foster Peabody team reporting award, and awards from both the Associated Press and United Press International. Common Ground, which Thomas writes for USA Today, offers insightful discussion of contentious social issues with his friend and political counterpart, Bob Beckel. The two are working together on a book to be published in 2007.
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Cal Thomas
Syndicated political columnist
Syndicated political columnist and “On Faith” panelist Cal Thomas has a twice-weekly column that appears in over 500 newspapers around the world. A graduate of American University, Thomas is a veteran of broadcast and print journalism.
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As far as human nature in college...that is sort of an underlying theme of my Ivy League education. As I said, there remains an obsessions with philosophers of many centuries ago. I have very little patience with Locke's (and others') ideals and really wish that, as you say, college professors did not treat this as essential any "well-rounded" education. I wouldn't call it a systematic goal of my education, but it is certainly ingrained in the college's general education requirements.
Thanks for your response and the interesting dialogue. I can appreciate the circumstances that drive people to religion just as I can appreciate the circumstances that drive people to crime. I feel that neither is justified by its motivations, because in both cases the intended ends (financial security on the one hand, spiritual security on the other) are illusory. For those reasons I continue to question the basis for their motivations.
What you refer to as the "gray area in between" represents an area where people are willing not to be explicit about their beliefs in order not to face the need to reconcile the real conflicts. For example, what do you mean by "spirituality"? Is it a belief in something distinct but immaterial, or just a vague sense or hope of "something else"? How exactly could people practice science (which assumes that material effects have material causes) and also believe in immaterial causers? When people are forced to examine their beliefs I think they find conflicts or reveal that their definitions are imprecise.
The Catholic church's stance on evolution is a good example. The previous Pope claimed there was no conflict between Catholicism and evolution, but I suspect his view of evolution was inconsistent with how scientists understand and study evolution. I don't see a way to accept both that evolution is an undirected process and that humans were intended to be at the end of that process, god-like in image, ready to receive a soul.
As a college professor, I find it somewhat alarming that a systematic goal of your education was to promote the concept of "human nature." Human behavior is almost infinitely adaptable, flexible, and strongly culturally influenced. Avoidance of stigmatized, state-provided welfare services, for example, is a relatively modern concept, and most human societies (and here I am talking about distinct cultural groups, not the mainly westernized economic cultures you may be refering to) hold no such concepts. ("Avoidance of stigma" is less a hallmark of human nature than a definition--it wouldn't be stigma if people didn't avoid it, no?) I wouldn't say it was a waste of your education to recognize certain patterns in human behavior, but "human nature" is an unnecessary and over-reaching universal.
Finally, as someone who also still yearns for his mother's latkes (I'm the one who makes them now) I can understand what you mean by an ingrained culture. You shouldn't take offense, I most definitely count myself as someone influenced by familial persuasion--the fact that I still identify with being Jewish has everything to do with my experience as a child and nothing to do with religious feelings (or lack thereof) as an adult. On the other hand, I know the pangs of ingrained god-guilt, which I have now all but vanquished, which leads me to guess that your persistent attachment to spirituality also has familial roots. Children do not start believing in a god, they are convinced by the messages they receive at a time when they are extremely impressionable.
I think people have a tendency to close their minds to life circumstances when they think about why people have faith in religion. As I said, I don't know if God exists--but then again, no one does. I don't know if I solidly believe in God. Since everything in my life pretty much works out--from an upper-middle class background to being fortunate in friends, family, and similar comforts--I have the luxury of questioning others' blind faith. However, the reason that, for example, religious faith is much stronger in a number of developing countries is because people with a house when they were house hunting yeneed something to explain what is out of their control. If economic, nutritional, and physical stability is out of one's control, one is inclined to "leave things up to God" and believe that things happen "for a reason." This is an example of what I view to be human nature. Obviously, such poverty makes me think that there cannot be a God if he turns his back on his/her "children." However, development economists consistently have to consider the possible religious and social ramifications of infrastructure improvements, policy implementation, etc. It's not always black and white, with a person being a complete atheist or Canyon. There is gray in between, and for some reason people don't like that middle camp. I also make the distinction between belief in an organized, mindwashing religion and spirituality, but I don't get the feeling you do the same.
A last word on "human nature": If I believed that "human nature" was a term used only to impose beliefs on others, it would be a huge waste of a great deal of my liberal arts education...for some reason, my college has remained obsessed with human nature and philosophy (i.e., their curriculum circa the 18th century that an English king or someone set). Also a great waste of the amount of time I spent studying how it affects economic policy considerations and so forth...such as a huge proportion of impoverished in developing countries do not avail of state-provided welfare services because of the stigma faced. THIS is human nature--it's real.
I admire your belief in rationality--there are not enough people like you out there, or the world would not be such a mess. However, people are not always using God to explain how our solar system formed (which we are not sure about). Obviously, some do...Canyon certainly does. Many use God as explanation of desperate circumstances (see above).
And I wouldn't count me as an example of "familial persuasion," as my family believes in a religion that is so melded with our culture that they cannot be exclusive. I, for one, have met very few (if any) persons who were born Jewish, decided they were atheistic, and, regardless, did not yearn for his mother's latkes on Hannukah or did not enjoy sympathizing with other Jewish friends about the stereotypical "nagging" Jewish mother.
All I am saying is you don't have to believe in EITHER religion OR science. Obviously, this isn't rational. But many things aren't, such as systematically rejecting gray area.
I'm happy to make you laugh. You probably need all the laughter you can get in your state of self-loathing and delusion.
Because I use a word you had to look up you think it's BS. Senescence actually has meaning to it beyond getting old. It is the breakdown of specific physical and physiological processes inherent in all living things. You seem to think that Christianity explains death, but I haven't heard an explanation beyond humans--are all living things sinful? Did bacteria fall from grace because they decomposed the forbidden apple, is that why they die too?
On the other hand, there is robust biological theory that explains why all living things die, called senescence theory. I suggest you learn about it, because it is beautiful in its simplicity and its reliance on the same first principles that drive all biological thought. And, its assumptions have been tested, something you just cannot do with religion.
I think we all agree that observing something and knowing why it happens are two very different things. That gap between observing pattern and understanding it must be bridged by some method. I'll go with the method that gives a way to test alternative ideas, not the one that tells me the answer is written in a 2000 year old book. You make the same choice I do every day in your reliance on modern transportation, food, communication, construction, and medicine.
Let me know when you've worked out an answer about the bacteria.
Your incredibly complex and unfounded view of Christianity and reality is so odd I have no idea where to begin to address it. Nothing you have said remotely details my beliefs, nor any Christians I know of.
I've asked you this before, and you never answered, I'll reword it. In as few words as possible; if Christianity is true, why do Christians go to Heaven and pagans go to Hell?
All,
In an unrelated note, Rafael always makes me laugh, most atheists are rich in faith, Rafael is an exception, he has filled what he cannot know in with lies which he has no interest to back up with fact. His faith in these facts is incredible, but he cannot be accused of blind-faith, only deceived faith. See his post on getting old (notice the big word he used, which in science is known as "Baffle Them With Bull-Excrement"). Observing something and knowing why it happens are two very different things.
You will fall to senesence, the reason being because you are born of a sinful race and have sinned. Repent of your sins and trust in the only sinless Man ever to live, and inheret eternal life.
As for what people can do for the poor and the sick, Canyon, ...Rev. Thomas, and as JJ would say, et al...
I see a whole lot more effort expended this holiday season, *especially* in this holiday season... being expended by the likes of you to try and hurt and blame lil' ol' me for your consumerism...
Using the very scene of the birth of your Jesus to *claim political power over minorities,* and act like *you're* the ones oppressed when other religions are brave enough to put our own religious symbols up in the name of multicultural displays... *for you to back over and claim someone's oppressing you for existing...*
You talk a lot about your Jesus, Canyon. But it seems it's people like *me* trying to stop him from turning into a partisan political *idol.*
*By* existing.
I know Canyon would probably get off on it, but recently, this 'Advent' season has turned into a season of fear for people of other religions, while Christian conservatives look for someone to blame for their own consumerism, and failures thereof.
You like to say we're spiritually-scared of your presumptive spiritual 'might,' Canyon, Cal...
No, it's simpler than that. People like the both of you are telling the usually-armed and sexually-displaced element of society that Pagans are to blame for the woes of your own 'sins.'
You are turning even your own Nativity scenes into political pawns, and then calling it a defacing of your idols when someone else participates.
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say."
Actually, Canyon, to refer back to that. Pagans really don't walk around thinking it's a big deal whether or not Jesus was divine... The problem comes when you insist *nothing else* is.
You said it well yourself when you said you are glad your God is not fair... Cause that gives you the power and none of the accountability.. in your own mind.
Guess what doesn't wash in the world outside your head and your group.
But your guy there said you would be known by your fruits.
Best start looking to the crops of 'what you sow' instead of looking for devils to sacrifice to save yourself from the wrath of your *own* devil.
You speak of trying to *appease* your own terrifying God and Devil.
This is not for you to hurt others about.
I think it's about something you missed in your screaming fundamentalism.
Something quieter.
And I think what *really* scares you is that Christianity *don't* own that.
That there's no one you could hurt or control to give you what you seek to gain by behaving as you do, ...making your God out to be a real tyrant in order to justify trying to hurt people.
You've exposed the attitude here countless times.
I only question why you aren't rebuked more in reality.
"Human nature" is a term invoked by people to promote their own world view as natural and universal. By the same argument, are you suggesting that not clinging to antiquated views of gods pulling strings is somehow contrary to "human nature"? The only thing I can imagine to be universal is a desire to understand how the world works, and fortunately our understanding has improved dramatically over the last few thousand years.
Even when something "unexplained" happens, the rational mind can still draw on deduction and first principles--that is, we know that the body has an immune system, that there are genes that produce proteins that act to maintain health, and that susceptibility and resistance depend on the particular genetic makeup of the pathogen and the host. With mechanisms at hand for understanding response to disease generally, even if we don't understand the specifics of a given case, why on earth would we suddenly leap to some otherworldly explanatory mechanism for which we have no evidence or first principles?
The worst example of this impulse comes when people believe they or someone they know got better or survived a plane crash "for a reason," implying that the schmoe in the next hospital bed or the next plane seat who didn't survive also perished "for a reason." It is the height of stupidity and arrogance to believe that the unfortunate die or suffer because they are less deserving. You cannot hold one belief without the other.
I did not mean to say that religion is not explainable, but rather that it has no explanatory power. I'm not sure what you mean by belief in the unproven. Rational minds accept that many things are unproven and may even be unprovable with our current technology, but they do not leap to the conclusion that because the answer is presently unknown it must have an otherworldly solution. As an example, the consequences of selective breeding--artificial selection for favorable traits--were known for centuries before we had the technology and the theory to understand its genetic basis. At one time some might have thought that immaterial spirits were transmitted between parent and offspring. But of course we now know, only through advances in technology and theory, that genes are the heritable units. We have absolutely no basis for thinking that other material effects that currently seem a mystery will have anything other than material causes.
Finally, you say "rather a lot of scientists believe in some religion. Go figure. All it means is that the two are compatible, even if the combination makes little sense." Actually this observation says nothing about whether the two are compatible. People are contradictory and irrational in many aspects of life. Perfectly reasonable people will refuse to walk under a ladder and tremble at the thought of breaking a mirror. Many ideas that conflict with our actual experience of the world become ingrained in us at an early age, and are hard to shake. The power of familial religious persuasion is one of them--and I have to say that you sound like a prime example, as this is the best explanation we have for why most people on the planet believe more or less in what their parents believed.
In any case, I admire your willingness to continue questioning.
There must be two columnists named Cal Thomas. The columnist just quoted talks about “the temporal benefit of doing good to a fellow human being.” The other Cal Thomas has been a dogged supporter of a war of choice in Iraq and of the practice of torturing those who may be captured in some vague “war on terrorism.” The latter Cal Thomas does not quibble about the definition of torture; he, instead, says the U.S. government should engage in torture, just as the actors in the television show "24" are famous for doing. He has actually advocated using that show as a template for our foreign policy.
The first Mr. Thomas must be a strong supporter of Christian teachings – not least because he says he is. The latter Thomas advocates the war and torture against which Jesus spoke. This is far too confusing for a secular person to understand.
Religion is certainly not explainable or justifiable, as you say. Having faith in something completely supernatural is not necessarily rationale, but it is a component of human nature to believe/hope that there s something out there with more control over outcomes than we have. Sometimes the unexplained happens (someone very ill suddenly getting better, etc.) and we like to think there is a reason for all this. I believe in it for some reason, but I also question my belief a lot.
However...my parents are religious people and also in the life sciences. They believe in the unproven and also believe that when someone gets sick, it's because they have a virus, not because God decided to smite them. They believe in evolution and that the solar system was created over billions of years, not that God created the world in 6 days. The incompatibility between ration and religion is clear. What the Canyons of the world do is they make excuses FOR religion AGAINST science. Others, who know that religion is rather irrational but believe in it anyway (and I do believe that it is human nature, and we should accept human nature for all its craziness), make arguments FOR science DESPITE their belief in religion.
That probably made very little sense, but it is what I meant by being horrified that people feel a need to choose only religion over science (I can, obviously, understand why some choose only science over religion). Incidentally, I have done a bit of work in great labs with prestigious scientists (including a Nobel Prize winner), and rather a lot of scientists believe in some religion. Go figure. All it means is that the two are compatible, even if the combination makes little sense. No one's beliefs need to directly mirror a pastor's--I think people forget that everyone should have their own set of beliefs that probably match up with no one else's.
REMEMBER: Voting for HilLlary Clinton, is same as re-Voting for Prez B. Clinton.
This is 'illegal' , aka PROXY President by Nepotism! Presidential 'Term-Limits' are being violated. Do not be Stupid! The Communist have infiltrated Sweet Sweet U.S.A's Government of 'THE PEOPLE!
So, Please do not vote for 'Hillary & Bill Clinton! Thank You!
IMPORTANT , Sweet Sweet America:
A Russian Communist Conspiracy in Sweet Sweet America "i" now EXPOSED!
HARK Humates of America!:
BEWARE:
Senator 'Chuck Schumer' (of N.Y., a 'Senior Senator) is been "BRIBED' by the RUSSIAN-INTERNATIONAL-MAFIA! Example:
He, Mr. Schumer et al, via "L*U*K OIL" got money from them, (via ex-'GETTY gas station(s) moguls, now turned "Russian Mafia Government Front" as Owners in America. Please call FBI & CIA!] and of Which "Chucky-Boy' Senator SCHUMER promoted , knowingly in such a great 'COMMY' Conspiracy!
Forgive me, but it is true!!!!!!!!!!
ATT: You get pais per "CLICK' , then pay 'US' [free Spirited Bloggers] for Stealing OUR ideas/Writings!
Not: You must Post [ALL & not SENSORED] or repost {hours of WORK (free, but NO more!) thinking & typing) what You-Failed to post. There was No Cuseses. Everything was acoording to 'YOUR' rules, not mine.
Yes, 34,000 people a year in AMERICA , the sweet, comit Suicide. So Better they Volunteer for Army & die Protecting the great REPUBLIC & FEDERATION of "Space-Ship" Planet EARTH, aka S.S. GAIA, S.S. GEOID, S.S. TELLUSng Something instead!!
So please post ALL that you have sieved/selected & sensored! Not jus "i", but many many Bloggers!
NOTICE: "NEEWS-WEEK" & WASHINGTON POST & CO, et al,;
IT is about your ten 'FACE's. not about our one honest Face's!
You will be sued in Federal Court very very Soon!
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VOTE:
'NO' to News-Papers Company's owning {your Kids minds future & yours too] against them owning T.V Stations & Satellite Station!
'NO' to News Paper Company's! No Broad Casting! No!
Take Back your almost Hijacked Nation! Take back Sweet sweet America! Now!
THE WORST WAY OF CALLING NAME TO THE ALMIGHTY CREATOR:
When Christians say that Jesus(A.S) was BEGOTTEN and not MADE like Adam (A.S) or like all other creatures or creations?
What are you insinuating??? That God Almighty him self came down to perform the lowest form of animal act like any dog, donkey or monkey,i.e., sexual reproduction?
And on top of it Jesus(A.S) was His begotten son not ligitimate!!!!!!!!!!1
THAT IS THE WORST KIND OF ABUSE AND NAMING DIRECTED TOWARDS THE GOD ALMIGHTY!!
Well down you so called CHRISTIAN believers??
You are getting your rewards in this world and will definitely get infinitely here after!!!!!!
Good bye Newsweek, Washington Post, Editor & POST et al:
Good bye every body!
Att: Washington Post, Newsweek & Company; You Suck!
Warning: Do not reproduce, deseminate, plagerize, copy, for profit or gain 'ANY of my "POST" on any onf these 'Onfaith' or "onreligion" bloggs, since MARCH.19/20th of 2007 until NOW! Dec.15th.2007!
Vote: ECLATi-ON Party for GRIDARIAN DEMOCRACY & TRANSFINITE CIVILIZATION 2012 & beyond! Bye Yo ALL!
Don't mind Canyon. He thinks that because he says things they must be true.
You didn't say what you find horrifying. Whether or not science and religion are compatible depends on what you mean by religion. If your notion of religion includes the idea that there are supernatural tweaks to the relationship between cause and effect, then the two are wholly incompatible. Without assuming that material effects (which you can measure) can be explained by material causes (which you can control through experimentation or comparative observation), you simply can't do science.
On the other hand, if your notion of religion does not include supernatural causes, then I'm not sure what the point is. Religion becomes useless for understanding anything, as we live in and know only of a material world. For me, the idea that they are compatible emerges from fuzzy, wishful thinking.
You are right, though, about science having the best explanations for death, both proximate (through an understanding of the physiological underpinnings of senescence) and ultimate (through an understanding of the evolutionary processes that lead to senescence).
I have been fully enjoying this thread--rather amusing and entertaining.
One of Canyon Shearer's lines stood out:
"Christianity is still the only religion which has any clue what-so-ever why death happens."
Many eastern religions see death as completely natural and a part of the "circle of life" (if you excuse my use of the cliche). I see no problem with this. In fact, this view is far more rational than the Christian view that death happens for a particular reason and that there is further judgment after death. Moreover, this view is a bit more compatible with another set of values that can explain death--science. That is to say, at least the two do not directly clash.
I believe in God (not the Christian God), and I respect most religions...and the view that science and religion have to be mutually exclusive is horrifying to me.
In the resonant
cypress situated,
like a trembling
leaf, in the breath
of a novel and
innocent morning,
a sparrow alights
and always, in the
sun’s redness, a
delicate flake
discovers a dream.
poverty of the soul.
soul goes to, poverty,malnutrition,rottenism,fossilism,and death .diseas of the soul is much dangerous than diseas of the body.the soul is the command control of the body ,when soul cease body cease.
1-who created the soul?did jesus created his own soul ?who created the soul of virigin marry who jesus came thru her womb?who gave life to this womb of marry to give birth to jesus the mankind (soul and body).
2-the very first disease of the soul is to separate the soul from the creator of the soul.
3-those who they cling their soul on false idols like the mytho and delusion so called son of god the savior of mankind are the same idolators of ignorance era where they used to worship images and stones ,another regressionism indeed.
4-connect your soul to the creator of soul, you be save all the time .....eternal.
your soul is so precious,pleez do not put your soul where you put your drain.
Many emergent churches and Christian organizations who are involved in the ’social gospel’ movement have been actively campaigning for AIDS prevention in other countries. While much has been said about some of these organizations and their lack of actually sharing the gospel in the process, that is not the criticism here.
Moreover, I am not saying that Christians should not be concerned about this epidemic either. I think this is definately a problem and a mission field that we should be concerned about and address. In fact, one organization that I think is very good is ZOE (Zimbabwe Orphans Endeavor), which is run by Greg Jenks. I’ve met Greg at a Methodist Conference and a Promisekeepers event and am very impressed by what he is doing. That is not the criticism here either.
But one thing that I do believe is up for debate is, not should we be helping or not, but what help actually works?
Liberals want to give them drugs and condoms, whereas conservatives want to give them the gospel, thereby addressing the behavior that contributes to the spread of the disease. Many liberals can’t address the behavior, because in our own country they promote the agenda that anyone’s sexual behavior should not be criticized, and that all lifestyles should be confirmed as normal and natural expressions. So they can’t turn around and go to Africa and tell them to quit the behaviors that they endorse at home.
This news brief from FRC (based on this Washington Post article) is an interesting report from a pragmatic sense, about which method is working and which is not. :
=====================
Congress Should Mind Their A’s and B’s on AIDS Prevention
Improved access to antiretroviral drugs in recent years has led to an increasing emphasis on treatment over prevention as the principal way of attacking the AIDS epidemic in Africa. But the Washington Post reported yesterday that however effective these drugs may be for individual patients, they are not stopping the spread of the disease overall. The Post article reported that “among African countries with the most serious AIDS epidemics, the only one to report a recent drop in HIV rates is Zimbabwe, which has one of the region’s smallest treatment programs.” The problem, according to one South African AIDS expert, is that (as the Post describes it), “using antiretrovirals to fight an AIDS epidemic is akin to using chemotherapy and surgery to fight lung cancer. It would cost less, and save many more lives, to find some way to curb smoking.” Or, in the case of AIDS, to curb practices like having multiple sex partners. That’s exactly what the “abstinence” and “being faithful” (AB) components of President Bush’s AIDS relief plan (called PEPFAR) target. Currently, 20% of the plan’s funding is designated for prevention (80% goes for treatment) and only a third of that 20% is reserved for the “AB” approach. Yet incredibly, Democrats in Congress want to give AIDS bureaucrats a license to slash even that modest commitment. Tell your Congressman to support a continued firm commitment to abstinence and fidelity in AIDS relief.”
====================
Christians should be involved in helping in this epidemic, but they should stop and consider what type of “help” their money and efforts are going to. Does your church’s mission fund that supports AIDS in Africa programs, simply throw just drugs and condoms at the problem, or does it focus on the gospel and regeneration, and education of a Biblical worldview on sexuality as well?
"If I did some awful sin and died in the midst of it, I would still be saved.
Is there anyway to lose this salvation. As I read the scripture, yes. I can ultimately turn my back on Him, preferring my sin to His grace"
You've worked out quite a (contradictory) system for yourself. If you are in the midst of "preferring your sin" at the moment you die, you'll still be saved because when you're dead you can still say you didn't mean it?
It's a wonder that people who operate under such childlike rules about boundaries for the reward and punishment for their behavior can function on a daily basis.
Man. Most of the people who posted on this thread are obviously real True Believers. The holiest of the Holy Rollers. What the rest of us refer to as wing nuts. After regular exposure to the other discussions in On Faith--where I certainly encounter people who don't agree with me--I find this one chilling. To think there are so many people whose entire universe of thought is shaped (warped?) through the prism of sin, hell, redemption, salvation, wickedness, grace, etc., etc. This is like a fundie Sunday School on steroids. If the discussion had degenerated into how many angels dance on the head of a pin, I would not have been surprised.
Do any of you remember that this all began with a commentary by Cal Thomas about fighting poverty and disease and God’s love for the physical body? Gee, I thought ol’ Cal had come down from his next-to-God throne and was delivering a call for Congress to override George Bush’s veto of the child health care bill. Guess I was mistaken.
Man. Most of the people who posted on this thread are obviously real True Believers. The holiest of the Holy Rollers. What the rest of us refer to as wing nuts. After regular exposure to the other discussions in On Faith--where I certainly encounter people who don't agree with me--I find this one chilling. To think there are so many people whose entire universe of thought is shaped (warped?) through the prism of sin, hell, redemption, salvation, wickedness, grace, etc., etc. This is like a fundie Sunday School on steroids. If the discussion had degenerated into how many angels dance on the head of a pin, I would not have been surprised.
Do any of you remember that this all began with a commentary by Cal Thomas about fighting poverty and disease and God’s love for the physical body? Gee, I thought ol’ Cal had come down from his next-to-God throne and was delivering a call for Congress to override George Bush’s veto of the child health care bill. Guess I was mistaken.
>>> "A long and wicked life followed by five minutes of perfect grace gets you into Heaven. An equally long life of decent living and good works followed by one outburst of taking the name of the Lord in vain - then have a heart attack at that moment and be damned for eternity. Is that the system?" ~ Robert A. Heinlein <<<
No. Its not the system. It may be what you think Christianity to be, but its not Christianity.
Salvation does not depend upon your being faultless at the moment of death. It depends on all of your faults having been paid for by Jesus (and your accepting that payment). I have sinned many times since I was saved. God has been working in my life, changing my heart through love and discipline, but always for my good. On my part I have spent much time rebelling, and ignoring God, but God has a way of calling me back to him.
If I did some awful sin and died in the midst of it, I would still be saved. I would have to answer for that sin and any sin that I hadn't already asked God to forgive. All men will face a judgment, some to eternal life and some to eternal damnation. I will face mine and I would like to have already spent my time with God for any of my sins, but if that is not the case God will deal with this as He always has, by reminding me that He has something better for me than this sin that I harbor.
Is there anyway to lose this salvation. As I read the scripture, yes. I can ultimately turn my back on Him, preferring my sin to His grace, fatally ignoring the Holy Spirit that has always beckoned me before.
Ah-ha, here is this thread. I thought that a new question was posted identical to the old one, I didn't see Cal Thomas' post until now.
CCNotL, we've previously had this discussion remember? You lost; a tiny dissenting group of gnostics are as heretical and wrong today as they were in the 300's.
Gandalf, I've read the Koran three times, the Bhagavad Gita once, the Torah about half-dozen times, the Talmud once, the iChing, the Tao-Te-Ching, the origin of species...among many other commentaries...but I don't need to read all of these to know that every other religion is false. I don't have to look at every other religion when the one that has proven itself to be true says, "I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life." It doesn't say, "I am a way."
Every other religion is the broad path to destruction. Duckphup and Lepidotmatrix have convinced themselves that they know things about Christianity, but as you can tell from their posts, they have no clue.
Every religion in the world is works-based, check them, every single one........EXCEPT Christianity. You can be the most holy Christian or the most heathen Christian, but if you're saved by the atoning work of Christ on the cross, then you are going to Heaven.
CANYON SHEARER wrote: "Duckphup can't even tell the difference between Christ and Santa Claus...whether both are real or imagined, there is a HUGE difference between them. How can you speak against a religion you know nothing about?"
Well... that's not quite true. Having been brought up (brainwashed and indoctrinated) as a Christian, I knew quite a lot about it. Then, I learned how to think properly, and my BS alarm became fully functional. Christianity... and religious belief in general... cannot survive the attention of a rational mind, equipped with a fully functional BS alarm. Since then... I have made an in-depth study of Christianity, as well as most of the world's mainstream religions... and quite a few of the not-so-mainstream, as well.
It's a shame that your genetic line does not come eqipped with the critical-thinking gene.
"A thorough reading and understanding of the Bible is the surest path to atheism” ~ Donald Morgan
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son Of God; or else a madman or something worse."
WHO'S the lunatic?!
What Jesus says is crazy UNLESS he is the son of God and then it is suddenly not crazy?
So how do we decide amongst ourselves who is sane and who is crazy since none of us is God?
That was the funniest Canyon Shearer post YET! Bar none! HA!!!!!
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.'"
That's exactly what I'm saying.
"Thanks again for proving that you have NO idea what Christianity is about."
I know exactly what Christianity is about, which is why I cannot practice it as a religion. Nonetheless, Jesus' teachings on things like compassion for the less fortunate (which is in line with the topic question) do have value for me, along with other teachers' words (Gautama and Gandhi, for example) on the same subject.
I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son Of God; or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at his feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
- C. S. Lewis
Thanks again for proving that you have NO idea what Christianity is about.
All Comments (79)
Rafael:
As far as human nature in college...that is sort of an underlying theme of my Ivy League education. As I said, there remains an obsessions with philosophers of many centuries ago. I have very little patience with Locke's (and others') ideals and really wish that, as you say, college professors did not treat this as essential any "well-rounded" education. I wouldn't call it a systematic goal of my education, but it is certainly ingrained in the college's general education requirements.
December 23, 2007 7:20 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 23, 2007 19:20
Only a college student:
Thanks for your response and the interesting dialogue. I can appreciate the circumstances that drive people to religion just as I can appreciate the circumstances that drive people to crime. I feel that neither is justified by its motivations, because in both cases the intended ends (financial security on the one hand, spiritual security on the other) are illusory. For those reasons I continue to question the basis for their motivations.
What you refer to as the "gray area in between" represents an area where people are willing not to be explicit about their beliefs in order not to face the need to reconcile the real conflicts. For example, what do you mean by "spirituality"? Is it a belief in something distinct but immaterial, or just a vague sense or hope of "something else"? How exactly could people practice science (which assumes that material effects have material causes) and also believe in immaterial causers? When people are forced to examine their beliefs I think they find conflicts or reveal that their definitions are imprecise.
The Catholic church's stance on evolution is a good example. The previous Pope claimed there was no conflict between Catholicism and evolution, but I suspect his view of evolution was inconsistent with how scientists understand and study evolution. I don't see a way to accept both that evolution is an undirected process and that humans were intended to be at the end of that process, god-like in image, ready to receive a soul.
As a college professor, I find it somewhat alarming that a systematic goal of your education was to promote the concept of "human nature." Human behavior is almost infinitely adaptable, flexible, and strongly culturally influenced. Avoidance of stigmatized, state-provided welfare services, for example, is a relatively modern concept, and most human societies (and here I am talking about distinct cultural groups, not the mainly westernized economic cultures you may be refering to) hold no such concepts. ("Avoidance of stigma" is less a hallmark of human nature than a definition--it wouldn't be stigma if people didn't avoid it, no?) I wouldn't say it was a waste of your education to recognize certain patterns in human behavior, but "human nature" is an unnecessary and over-reaching universal.
Finally, as someone who also still yearns for his mother's latkes (I'm the one who makes them now) I can understand what you mean by an ingrained culture. You shouldn't take offense, I most definitely count myself as someone influenced by familial persuasion--the fact that I still identify with being Jewish has everything to do with my experience as a child and nothing to do with religious feelings (or lack thereof) as an adult. On the other hand, I know the pangs of ingrained god-guilt, which I have now all but vanquished, which leads me to guess that your persistent attachment to spirituality also has familial roots. Children do not start believing in a god, they are convinced by the messages they receive at a time when they are extremely impressionable.
December 19, 2007 10:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 19, 2007 22:19
Rafael:
I think people have a tendency to close their minds to life circumstances when they think about why people have faith in religion. As I said, I don't know if God exists--but then again, no one does. I don't know if I solidly believe in God. Since everything in my life pretty much works out--from an upper-middle class background to being fortunate in friends, family, and similar comforts--I have the luxury of questioning others' blind faith. However, the reason that, for example, religious faith is much stronger in a number of developing countries is because people with a house when they were house hunting yeneed something to explain what is out of their control. If economic, nutritional, and physical stability is out of one's control, one is inclined to "leave things up to God" and believe that things happen "for a reason." This is an example of what I view to be human nature. Obviously, such poverty makes me think that there cannot be a God if he turns his back on his/her "children." However, development economists consistently have to consider the possible religious and social ramifications of infrastructure improvements, policy implementation, etc. It's not always black and white, with a person being a complete atheist or Canyon. There is gray in between, and for some reason people don't like that middle camp. I also make the distinction between belief in an organized, mindwashing religion and spirituality, but I don't get the feeling you do the same.
A last word on "human nature": If I believed that "human nature" was a term used only to impose beliefs on others, it would be a huge waste of a great deal of my liberal arts education...for some reason, my college has remained obsessed with human nature and philosophy (i.e., their curriculum circa the 18th century that an English king or someone set). Also a great waste of the amount of time I spent studying how it affects economic policy considerations and so forth...such as a huge proportion of impoverished in developing countries do not avail of state-provided welfare services because of the stigma faced. THIS is human nature--it's real.
I admire your belief in rationality--there are not enough people like you out there, or the world would not be such a mess. However, people are not always using God to explain how our solar system formed (which we are not sure about). Obviously, some do...Canyon certainly does. Many use God as explanation of desperate circumstances (see above).
And I wouldn't count me as an example of "familial persuasion," as my family believes in a religion that is so melded with our culture that they cannot be exclusive. I, for one, have met very few (if any) persons who were born Jewish, decided they were atheistic, and, regardless, did not yearn for his mother's latkes on Hannukah or did not enjoy sympathizing with other Jewish friends about the stereotypical "nagging" Jewish mother.
All I am saying is you don't have to believe in EITHER religion OR science. Obviously, this isn't rational. But many things aren't, such as systematically rejecting gray area.
December 18, 2007 12:19 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 18, 2007 00:19
Canyon,
I'm happy to make you laugh. You probably need all the laughter you can get in your state of self-loathing and delusion.
Because I use a word you had to look up you think it's BS. Senescence actually has meaning to it beyond getting old. It is the breakdown of specific physical and physiological processes inherent in all living things. You seem to think that Christianity explains death, but I haven't heard an explanation beyond humans--are all living things sinful? Did bacteria fall from grace because they decomposed the forbidden apple, is that why they die too?
On the other hand, there is robust biological theory that explains why all living things die, called senescence theory. I suggest you learn about it, because it is beautiful in its simplicity and its reliance on the same first principles that drive all biological thought. And, its assumptions have been tested, something you just cannot do with religion.
I think we all agree that observing something and knowing why it happens are two very different things. That gap between observing pattern and understanding it must be bridged by some method. I'll go with the method that gives a way to test alternative ideas, not the one that tells me the answer is written in a 2000 year old book. You make the same choice I do every day in your reliance on modern transportation, food, communication, construction, and medicine.
Let me know when you've worked out an answer about the bacteria.
December 17, 2007 9:32 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 17, 2007 09:32
Paganplace,
Your incredibly complex and unfounded view of Christianity and reality is so odd I have no idea where to begin to address it. Nothing you have said remotely details my beliefs, nor any Christians I know of.
I've asked you this before, and you never answered, I'll reword it. In as few words as possible; if Christianity is true, why do Christians go to Heaven and pagans go to Hell?
All,
In an unrelated note, Rafael always makes me laugh, most atheists are rich in faith, Rafael is an exception, he has filled what he cannot know in with lies which he has no interest to back up with fact. His faith in these facts is incredible, but he cannot be accused of blind-faith, only deceived faith. See his post on getting old (notice the big word he used, which in science is known as "Baffle Them With Bull-Excrement"). Observing something and knowing why it happens are two very different things.
You will fall to senesence, the reason being because you are born of a sinful race and have sinned. Repent of your sins and trust in the only sinless Man ever to live, and inheret eternal life.
December 17, 2007 7:48 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 17, 2007 07:48
As for what people can do for the poor and the sick, Canyon, ...Rev. Thomas, and as JJ would say, et al...
I see a whole lot more effort expended this holiday season, *especially* in this holiday season... being expended by the likes of you to try and hurt and blame lil' ol' me for your consumerism...
Using the very scene of the birth of your Jesus to *claim political power over minorities,* and act like *you're* the ones oppressed when other religions are brave enough to put our own religious symbols up in the name of multicultural displays... *for you to back over and claim someone's oppressing you for existing...*
You talk a lot about your Jesus, Canyon. But it seems it's people like *me* trying to stop him from turning into a partisan political *idol.*
*By* existing.
I know Canyon would probably get off on it, but recently, this 'Advent' season has turned into a season of fear for people of other religions, while Christian conservatives look for someone to blame for their own consumerism, and failures thereof.
You like to say we're spiritually-scared of your presumptive spiritual 'might,' Canyon, Cal...
No, it's simpler than that. People like the both of you are telling the usually-armed and sexually-displaced element of society that Pagans are to blame for the woes of your own 'sins.'
You are turning even your own Nativity scenes into political pawns, and then calling it a defacing of your idols when someone else participates.
All in the name of your 'Peace.'
I see no peace in these displays.
Maybe you ought to look for some.
You scare us. And not in a spiritual way.
Again, I ask in a Cal Thomas column:
Can we not do this this year?
December 17, 2007 12:25 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 17, 2007 00:25
Canyon:
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say."
Actually, Canyon, to refer back to that. Pagans really don't walk around thinking it's a big deal whether or not Jesus was divine... The problem comes when you insist *nothing else* is.
You said it well yourself when you said you are glad your God is not fair... Cause that gives you the power and none of the accountability.. in your own mind.
Guess what doesn't wash in the world outside your head and your group.
But your guy there said you would be known by your fruits.
Best start looking to the crops of 'what you sow' instead of looking for devils to sacrifice to save yourself from the wrath of your *own* devil.
You speak of trying to *appease* your own terrifying God and Devil.
This is not for you to hurt others about.
I think it's about something you missed in your screaming fundamentalism.
Something quieter.
And I think what *really* scares you is that Christianity *don't* own that.
That there's no one you could hurt or control to give you what you seek to gain by behaving as you do, ...making your God out to be a real tyrant in order to justify trying to hurt people.
You've exposed the attitude here countless times.
I only question why you aren't rebuked more in reality.
Or are you?
December 17, 2007 12:11 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 17, 2007 00:11
Only a College Student:
"Human nature" is a term invoked by people to promote their own world view as natural and universal. By the same argument, are you suggesting that not clinging to antiquated views of gods pulling strings is somehow contrary to "human nature"? The only thing I can imagine to be universal is a desire to understand how the world works, and fortunately our understanding has improved dramatically over the last few thousand years.
Even when something "unexplained" happens, the rational mind can still draw on deduction and first principles--that is, we know that the body has an immune system, that there are genes that produce proteins that act to maintain health, and that susceptibility and resistance depend on the particular genetic makeup of the pathogen and the host. With mechanisms at hand for understanding response to disease generally, even if we don't understand the specifics of a given case, why on earth would we suddenly leap to some otherworldly explanatory mechanism for which we have no evidence or first principles?
The worst example of this impulse comes when people believe they or someone they know got better or survived a plane crash "for a reason," implying that the schmoe in the next hospital bed or the next plane seat who didn't survive also perished "for a reason." It is the height of stupidity and arrogance to believe that the unfortunate die or suffer because they are less deserving. You cannot hold one belief without the other.
I did not mean to say that religion is not explainable, but rather that it has no explanatory power. I'm not sure what you mean by belief in the unproven. Rational minds accept that many things are unproven and may even be unprovable with our current technology, but they do not leap to the conclusion that because the answer is presently unknown it must have an otherworldly solution. As an example, the consequences of selective breeding--artificial selection for favorable traits--were known for centuries before we had the technology and the theory to understand its genetic basis. At one time some might have thought that immaterial spirits were transmitted between parent and offspring. But of course we now know, only through advances in technology and theory, that genes are the heritable units. We have absolutely no basis for thinking that other material effects that currently seem a mystery will have anything other than material causes.
Finally, you say "rather a lot of scientists believe in some religion. Go figure. All it means is that the two are compatible, even if the combination makes little sense." Actually this observation says nothing about whether the two are compatible. People are contradictory and irrational in many aspects of life. Perfectly reasonable people will refuse to walk under a ladder and tremble at the thought of breaking a mirror. Many ideas that conflict with our actual experience of the world become ingrained in us at an early age, and are hard to shake. The power of familial religious persuasion is one of them--and I have to say that you sound like a prime example, as this is the best explanation we have for why most people on the planet believe more or less in what their parents believed.
In any case, I admire your willingness to continue questioning.
December 16, 2007 9:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 21:16
There must be two columnists named Cal Thomas. The columnist just quoted talks about “the temporal benefit of doing good to a fellow human being.” The other Cal Thomas has been a dogged supporter of a war of choice in Iraq and of the practice of torturing those who may be captured in some vague “war on terrorism.” The latter Cal Thomas does not quibble about the definition of torture; he, instead, says the U.S. government should engage in torture, just as the actors in the television show "24" are famous for doing. He has actually advocated using that show as a template for our foreign policy.
The first Mr. Thomas must be a strong supporter of Christian teachings – not least because he says he is. The latter Thomas advocates the war and torture against which Jesus spoke. This is far too confusing for a secular person to understand.
December 16, 2007 8:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 20:27
Georgiason: "Touche"
Ah - dueling partner I can respect!
December 16, 2007 12:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 12:45
Now WAPO now sais {automated?}
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VOTE: Peace Love Rockn Roll nRap , Mitt_ROMNEY for Prez. Save America from Imported Religion(s)!
Thank You, HUMATE(s)! < ?: +) Ya Ya.
December 16, 2007 11:29 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 11:29
Rafael:
Religion is certainly not explainable or justifiable, as you say. Having faith in something completely supernatural is not necessarily rationale, but it is a component of human nature to believe/hope that there s something out there with more control over outcomes than we have. Sometimes the unexplained happens (someone very ill suddenly getting better, etc.) and we like to think there is a reason for all this. I believe in it for some reason, but I also question my belief a lot.
However...my parents are religious people and also in the life sciences. They believe in the unproven and also believe that when someone gets sick, it's because they have a virus, not because God decided to smite them. They believe in evolution and that the solar system was created over billions of years, not that God created the world in 6 days. The incompatibility between ration and religion is clear. What the Canyons of the world do is they make excuses FOR religion AGAINST science. Others, who know that religion is rather irrational but believe in it anyway (and I do believe that it is human nature, and we should accept human nature for all its craziness), make arguments FOR science DESPITE their belief in religion.
That probably made very little sense, but it is what I meant by being horrified that people feel a need to choose only religion over science (I can, obviously, understand why some choose only science over religion). Incidentally, I have done a bit of work in great labs with prestigious scientists (including a Nobel Prize winner), and rather a lot of scientists believe in some religion. Go figure. All it means is that the two are compatible, even if the combination makes little sense. No one's beliefs need to directly mirror a pastor's--I think people forget that everyone should have their own set of beliefs that probably match up with no one else's.
December 16, 2007 11:28 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 11:28
REPLY TO: E favorite
I wrote in my original post that "If the discussion had degenerated into how many angels dance on the head of a pin, I would not have been surprised."
You replied: "I would - that would be a high-level, esoteric, intellectual argument compared to what's here."
Touche!
December 16, 2007 10:18 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 10:18
REPLY TO: E favorite
I wrote in my original post that "If the discussion had degenerated into how many angels dance on the head of a pin, I would not have been surprised."
You replied: "I would - that would be a high-level, esoteric, intellectual argument compared to what's here."
Touche!
December 16, 2007 10:13 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 10:13
REMEMBER: Voting for HilLlary Clinton, is same as re-Voting for Prez B. Clinton.
This is 'illegal' , aka PROXY President by Nepotism! Presidential 'Term-Limits' are being violated. Do not be Stupid! The Communist have infiltrated Sweet Sweet U.S.A's Government of 'THE PEOPLE!
So, Please do not vote for 'Hillary & Bill Clinton! Thank You!
IMPORTANT , Sweet Sweet America:
A Russian Communist Conspiracy in Sweet Sweet America "i" now EXPOSED!
HARK Humates of America!:
BEWARE:
Senator 'Chuck Schumer' (of N.Y., a 'Senior Senator) is been "BRIBED' by the RUSSIAN-INTERNATIONAL-MAFIA! Example:
He, Mr. Schumer et al, via "L*U*K OIL" got money from them, (via ex-'GETTY gas station(s) moguls, now turned "Russian Mafia Government Front" as Owners in America. Please call FBI & CIA!] and of Which "Chucky-Boy' Senator SCHUMER promoted , knowingly in such a great 'COMMY' Conspiracy!
Forgive me, but it is true!!!!!!!!!!
ATT: You get pais per "CLICK' , then pay 'US' [free Spirited Bloggers] for Stealing OUR ideas/Writings!
Not: You must Post [ALL & not SENSORED] or repost {hours of WORK (free, but NO more!) thinking & typing) what You-Failed to post. There was No Cuseses. Everything was acoording to 'YOUR' rules, not mine.
Yes, 34,000 people a year in AMERICA , the sweet, comit Suicide. So Better they Volunteer for Army & die Protecting the great REPUBLIC & FEDERATION of "Space-Ship" Planet EARTH, aka S.S. GAIA, S.S. GEOID, S.S. TELLUSng Something instead!!
So please post ALL that you have sieved/selected & sensored! Not jus "i", but many many Bloggers!
NOTICE: "NEEWS-WEEK" & WASHINGTON POST & CO, et al,;
IT is about your ten 'FACE's. not about our one honest Face's!
You will be sued in Federal Court very very Soon!
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VOTE:
'NO' to News-Papers Company's owning {your Kids minds future & yours too] against them owning T.V Stations & Satellite Station!
'NO' to News Paper Company's! No Broad Casting! No!
Take Back your almost Hijacked Nation! Take back Sweet sweet America! Now!
December 16, 2007 9:05 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 09:05
THE WORST WAY OF CALLING NAME TO THE ALMIGHTY CREATOR:
When Christians say that Jesus(A.S) was BEGOTTEN and not MADE like Adam (A.S) or like all other creatures or creations?
What are you insinuating??? That God Almighty him self came down to perform the lowest form of animal act like any dog, donkey or monkey,i.e., sexual reproduction?
And on top of it Jesus(A.S) was His begotten son not ligitimate!!!!!!!!!!1
THAT IS THE WORST KIND OF ABUSE AND NAMING DIRECTED TOWARDS THE GOD ALMIGHTY!!
Well down you so called CHRISTIAN believers??
You are getting your rewards in this world and will definitely get infinitely here after!!!!!!
December 16, 2007 3:19 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 03:19
Good bye Newsweek, Washington Post, Editor & POST et al:
Good bye every body!
Att: Washington Post, Newsweek & Company; You Suck!
Warning: Do not reproduce, deseminate, plagerize, copy, for profit or gain 'ANY of my "POST" on any onf these 'Onfaith' or "onreligion" bloggs, since MARCH.19/20th of 2007 until NOW! Dec.15th.2007!
Vote: ECLATi-ON Party for GRIDARIAN DEMOCRACY & TRANSFINITE CIVILIZATION 2012 & beyond! Bye Yo ALL!
< ?: +) / Ya Ya!
December 15, 2007 11:00 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 15, 2007 23:00
OACS:
Don't mind Canyon. He thinks that because he says things they must be true.
You didn't say what you find horrifying. Whether or not science and religion are compatible depends on what you mean by religion. If your notion of religion includes the idea that there are supernatural tweaks to the relationship between cause and effect, then the two are wholly incompatible. Without assuming that material effects (which you can measure) can be explained by material causes (which you can control through experimentation or comparative observation), you simply can't do science.
On the other hand, if your notion of religion does not include supernatural causes, then I'm not sure what the point is. Religion becomes useless for understanding anything, as we live in and know only of a material world. For me, the idea that they are compatible emerges from fuzzy, wishful thinking.
You are right, though, about science having the best explanations for death, both proximate (through an understanding of the physiological underpinnings of senescence) and ultimate (through an understanding of the evolutionary processes that lead to senescence).
December 15, 2007 8:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 15, 2007 20:38
I have been fully enjoying this thread--rather amusing and entertaining.
One of Canyon Shearer's lines stood out:
"Christianity is still the only religion which has any clue what-so-ever why death happens."
Many eastern religions see death as completely natural and a part of the "circle of life" (if you excuse my use of the cliche). I see no problem with this. In fact, this view is far more rational than the Christian view that death happens for a particular reason and that there is further judgment after death. Moreover, this view is a bit more compatible with another set of values that can explain death--science. That is to say, at least the two do not directly clash.
I believe in God (not the Christian God), and I respect most religions...and the view that science and religion have to be mutually exclusive is horrifying to me.
December 15, 2007 2:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 15, 2007 14:49
At the Mercy.
In the resonant
cypress situated,
like a trembling
leaf, in the breath
of a novel and
innocent morning,
a sparrow alights
and always, in the
sun’s redness, a
delicate flake
discovers a dream.
December 15, 2007 2:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 15, 2007 14:41
poverty of the soul.
soul goes to, poverty,malnutrition,rottenism,fossilism,and death .diseas of the soul is much dangerous than diseas of the body.the soul is the command control of the body ,when soul cease body cease.
1-who created the soul?did jesus created his own soul ?who created the soul of virigin marry who jesus came thru her womb?who gave life to this womb of marry to give birth to jesus the mankind (soul and body).
2-the very first disease of the soul is to separate the soul from the creator of the soul.
3-those who they cling their soul on false idols like the mytho and delusion so called son of god the savior of mankind are the same idolators of ignorance era where they used to worship images and stones ,another regressionism indeed.
4-connect your soul to the creator of soul, you be save all the time .....eternal.
your soul is so precious,pleez do not put your soul where you put your drain.
December 15, 2007 1:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 15, 2007 13:25
Many emergent churches and Christian organizations who are involved in the ’social gospel’ movement have been actively campaigning for AIDS prevention in other countries. While much has been said about some of these organizations and their lack of actually sharing the gospel in the process, that is not the criticism here.
Moreover, I am not saying that Christians should not be concerned about this epidemic either. I think this is definately a problem and a mission field that we should be concerned about and address. In fact, one organization that I think is very good is ZOE (Zimbabwe Orphans Endeavor), which is run by Greg Jenks. I’ve met Greg at a Methodist Conference and a Promisekeepers event and am very impressed by what he is doing. That is not the criticism here either.
But one thing that I do believe is up for debate is, not should we be helping or not, but what help actually works?
Liberals want to give them drugs and condoms, whereas conservatives want to give them the gospel, thereby addressing the behavior that contributes to the spread of the disease. Many liberals can’t address the behavior, because in our own country they promote the agenda that anyone’s sexual behavior should not be criticized, and that all lifestyles should be confirmed as normal and natural expressions. So they can’t turn around and go to Africa and tell them to quit the behaviors that they endorse at home.
This news brief from FRC (based on this Washington Post article) is an interesting report from a pragmatic sense, about which method is working and which is not. :
=====================
Congress Should Mind Their A’s and B’s on AIDS Prevention
Improved access to antiretroviral drugs in recent years has led to an increasing emphasis on treatment over prevention as the principal way of attacking the AIDS epidemic in Africa. But the Washington Post reported yesterday that however effective these drugs may be for individual patients, they are not stopping the spread of the disease overall. The Post article reported that “among African countries with the most serious AIDS epidemics, the only one to report a recent drop in HIV rates is Zimbabwe, which has one of the region’s smallest treatment programs.” The problem, according to one South African AIDS expert, is that (as the Post describes it), “using antiretrovirals to fight an AIDS epidemic is akin to using chemotherapy and surgery to fight lung cancer. It would cost less, and save many more lives, to find some way to curb smoking.” Or, in the case of AIDS, to curb practices like having multiple sex partners. That’s exactly what the “abstinence” and “being faithful” (AB) components of President Bush’s AIDS relief plan (called PEPFAR) target. Currently, 20% of the plan’s funding is designated for prevention (80% goes for treatment) and only a third of that 20% is reserved for the “AB” approach. Yet incredibly, Democrats in Congress want to give AIDS bureaucrats a license to slash even that modest commitment. Tell your Congressman to support a continued firm commitment to abstinence and fidelity in AIDS relief.”
====================
Christians should be involved in helping in this epidemic, but they should stop and consider what type of “help” their money and efforts are going to. Does your church’s mission fund that supports AIDS in Africa programs, simply throw just drugs and condoms at the problem, or does it focus on the gospel and regeneration, and education of a Biblical worldview on sexuality as well?
December 15, 2007 12:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 15, 2007 12:26
Homesower says:
"If I did some awful sin and died in the midst of it, I would still be saved.
Is there anyway to lose this salvation. As I read the scripture, yes. I can ultimately turn my back on Him, preferring my sin to His grace"
You've worked out quite a (contradictory) system for yourself. If you are in the midst of "preferring your sin" at the moment you die, you'll still be saved because when you're dead you can still say you didn't mean it?
It's a wonder that people who operate under such childlike rules about boundaries for the reward and punishment for their behavior can function on a daily basis.
December 15, 2007 10:45 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 15, 2007 10:45
Georgiason: " If the discussion had degenerated into how many angels dance on the head of a pin, I would not have been surprised.
I would - that would be a high-level, esoteric, intellectual argument compared to what's here.
December 15, 2007 8:38 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 15, 2007 08:38
Man. Most of the people who posted on this thread are obviously real True Believers. The holiest of the Holy Rollers. What the rest of us refer to as wing nuts. After regular exposure to the other discussions in On Faith--where I certainly encounter people who don't agree with me--I find this one chilling. To think there are so many people whose entire universe of thought is shaped (warped?) through the prism of sin, hell, redemption, salvation, wickedness, grace, etc., etc. This is like a fundie Sunday School on steroids. If the discussion had degenerated into how many angels dance on the head of a pin, I would not have been surprised.
Do any of you remember that this all began with a commentary by Cal Thomas about fighting poverty and disease and God’s love for the physical body? Gee, I thought ol’ Cal had come down from his next-to-God throne and was delivering a call for Congress to override George Bush’s veto of the child health care bill. Guess I was mistaken.
December 15, 2007 8:07 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 15, 2007 08:07
Man. Most of the people who posted on this thread are obviously real True Believers. The holiest of the Holy Rollers. What the rest of us refer to as wing nuts. After regular exposure to the other discussions in On Faith--where I certainly encounter people who don't agree with me--I find this one chilling. To think there are so many people whose entire universe of thought is shaped (warped?) through the prism of sin, hell, redemption, salvation, wickedness, grace, etc., etc. This is like a fundie Sunday School on steroids. If the discussion had degenerated into how many angels dance on the head of a pin, I would not have been surprised.
Do any of you remember that this all began with a commentary by Cal Thomas about fighting poverty and disease and God’s love for the physical body? Gee, I thought ol’ Cal had come down from his next-to-God throne and was delivering a call for Congress to override George Bush’s veto of the child health care bill. Guess I was mistaken.
December 15, 2007 8:07 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 15, 2007 08:07
Homsower - If I weren't already an atheist, I think your post would send me over the edge. It sounds so pompous and disengenuous.
How did you come to know the mind of God?
December 15, 2007 12:00 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 15, 2007 00:00
>>> "A long and wicked life followed by five minutes of perfect grace gets you into Heaven. An equally long life of decent living and good works followed by one outburst of taking the name of the Lord in vain - then have a heart attack at that moment and be damned for eternity. Is that the system?" ~ Robert A. Heinlein <<<
No. Its not the system. It may be what you think Christianity to be, but its not Christianity.
Salvation does not depend upon your being faultless at the moment of death. It depends on all of your faults having been paid for by Jesus (and your accepting that payment). I have sinned many times since I was saved. God has been working in my life, changing my heart through love and discipline, but always for my good. On my part I have spent much time rebelling, and ignoring God, but God has a way of calling me back to him.
If I did some awful sin and died in the midst of it, I would still be saved. I would have to answer for that sin and any sin that I hadn't already asked God to forgive. All men will face a judgment, some to eternal life and some to eternal damnation. I will face mine and I would like to have already spent my time with God for any of my sins, but if that is not the case God will deal with this as He always has, by reminding me that He has something better for me than this sin that I harbor.
Is there anyway to lose this salvation. As I read the scripture, yes. I can ultimately turn my back on Him, preferring my sin to His grace, fatally ignoring the Holy Spirit that has always beckoned me before.
December 14, 2007 6:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 14, 2007 18:02
Ah-ha, here is this thread. I thought that a new question was posted identical to the old one, I didn't see Cal Thomas' post until now.
CCNotL, we've previously had this discussion remember? You lost; a tiny dissenting group of gnostics are as heretical and wrong today as they were in the 300's.
Gandalf, I've read the Koran three times, the Bhagavad Gita once, the Torah about half-dozen times, the Talmud once, the iChing, the Tao-Te-Ching, the origin of species...among many other commentaries...but I don't need to read all of these to know that every other religion is false. I don't have to look at every other religion when the one that has proven itself to be true says, "I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life." It doesn't say, "I am a way."
Every other religion is the broad path to destruction. Duckphup and Lepidotmatrix have convinced themselves that they know things about Christianity, but as you can tell from their posts, they have no clue.
Every religion in the world is works-based, check them, every single one........EXCEPT Christianity. You can be the most holy Christian or the most heathen Christian, but if you're saved by the atoning work of Christ on the cross, then you are going to Heaven.
Repent and believe the Gospel.
December 14, 2007 2:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 14, 2007 14:29
Wow... the world must have turned upside down. CCNL is fighting against the Bible-thumping Christian Canyon Shearer. And I'm agreeing with CCNL.
Hey, CCNL! Look! There's ANGELS in here!
December 14, 2007 1:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 14, 2007 13:28
Well, I just lost a little more respect for C.S. Lewis...
December 14, 2007 4:08 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 14, 2007 04:08
CANYON SHEARER wrote: "Duckphup can't even tell the difference between Christ and Santa Claus...whether both are real or imagined, there is a HUGE difference between them. How can you speak against a religion you know nothing about?"
Well... that's not quite true. Having been brought up (brainwashed and indoctrinated) as a Christian, I knew quite a lot about it. Then, I learned how to think properly, and my BS alarm became fully functional. Christianity... and religious belief in general... cannot survive the attention of a rational mind, equipped with a fully functional BS alarm. Since then... I have made an in-depth study of Christianity, as well as most of the world's mainstream religions... and quite a few of the not-so-mainstream, as well.
It's a shame that your genetic line does not come eqipped with the critical-thinking gene.
"A thorough reading and understanding of the Bible is the surest path to atheism” ~ Donald Morgan
December 6, 2007 8:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 20:02
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son Of God; or else a madman or something worse."
WHO'S the lunatic?!
What Jesus says is crazy UNLESS he is the son of God and then it is suddenly not crazy?
So how do we decide amongst ourselves who is sane and who is crazy since none of us is God?
That was the funniest Canyon Shearer post YET! Bar none! HA!!!!!
December 6, 2007 3:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 15:10
Canyon,
We await your list of religious books you have read cover to cover other than your thumping bible. Remember "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness"!!!!
December 6, 2007 3:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 15:09
Canyon:
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.'"
That's exactly what I'm saying.
"Thanks again for proving that you have NO idea what Christianity is about."
I know exactly what Christianity is about, which is why I cannot practice it as a religion. Nonetheless, Jesus' teachings on things like compassion for the less fortunate (which is in line with the topic question) do have value for me, along with other teachers' words (Gautama and Gandhi, for example) on the same subject.
December 6, 2007 1:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 13:44
Canyon...Once again, do you have any knowledge of any other religion other than Christianity? have you read the religious books of any other religion?
December 6, 2007 1:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 13:39
I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son Of God; or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at his feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
- C. S. Lewis
Thanks again for proving that you have NO idea what Christianity is about.
December 6, 2007 1:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 13:16