All Comments (58)

Mark Eaton,

quoting anything from the bible is circular reasoning: "I believe in bible stories because bible stories tell me to believe in bible stories."

You sell this, like millions of other brainwashed people, as an "argument". You have never produced anything resembling an argument even from a huge distance. You are angry at somebody who takes away your teddy bear. This anger has produced and will produce more murder and hate. Talking about love, haha!

Mark Eaton wrote: "Your stories are humorous. You wow me with your intelligence. But, please tell me how YOU created the world, now that you have the mind of God."

Well, first of all, I do not have the mind of an imaginary, invisible, magical, supernatural sky-fairy. And I most certainly do not think that I created the world... NOBODY did. It was formed from an accretion disk consisting of dust and gas (along with the OTHER planets), in a completely natural process that took millions of years... a process that astronomers can SEE happening in other nascent solar systems. Google for 'solar nebula' or 'planetary formation'. (There is no excuse for being as ignorant as you seem to be, in this day and age... unless it is WILLFUL ignorance, of course.)

"Or do you believe you were once a protozoa that became an ape that became a man?"

If you knew anything at all about evolution, you would know that organisms (creatures) do not 'evolve'... it is the genetic makeup of populations of organisms that 'evolves' (changes over time). In other words, it is the 'gene pool' that evolves... not creatures.

"Or do you pretend not to believe anything and we got here by what...accident?"

The natural processes that produce suns, planets, galaxies... and life... are certainly not accidental... any more than it is an accident that when you carefully pour salt from a container, it forms an inverted cone... or when you drop a bowling ball from the top of a skyscraper, it accelerates at a constant rate. Neither is it mysterious, magical or supernatural. But matter and energy interacting in accordance with natural 'laws' (they're not REALLY 'laws'... they are just consistent mathematical relationships that we have 'noticed' in nature) does not imply 'intent', or intelligent 'direction', either. Complexity arises from simplicity... and from complexity, 'emergent properties' appear. Look up 'self-organizing complex systems'. Read a freakin' book or two, fer crissake. Ignorance (lack of knowledge) can be cured.

"These people you hang out with that believe REAL things, what do they believe?"

Generally, the people that I hang out with are able to tell the difference between what they 'know' (facts... things that correspond with reality) and things that they DON'T know... in which case, the only logical and intellectually honest position is to say "I don't know"... NOT to say "Gee... I don't understand that... so I guess the invisible, magical, supernatiral sky-fairy did it." 'Belief' is quite irrelevant.

"That there is no God at all and man created this planet? That the planet just exploded from...what? How can something come from nothing without a God or someone like God to create it? Any and all answers please?"

Again... you really need to seek out an education. It is shameful that you do not even have enough sense to be embarassed by your profound ignorance.

"Believe what you like, it is your choice. Only don't bash me just because you do not agree. I never bashed you for your crazy theories."

LOL. What do you call that blithering drivel that I just quoted? Look... your assertions and questions reveal that the foolishness which serves you as a substitute for knowledge and reason is a logical fallacy (a flaw in thinking) known as the "Argument From Incredulity"... which is a sub-category of the "Argumentum ad Ignorantiam" (Argument From Ignorance). It is also known as the 'Divine Fallacy'. It goes something like this: "I can't conceive of (or imagine) how this might have come to be; therefore, God did it."

That does not point to a limitation of science, or of nature... rather, it illuminates a limitation of YOUR knowledge and/or intellect. Also, it is intellectually dishonest, since it does not (as scientists do) ACKNOWLEDGE the limitation of knowledge... it merely invokes the fanciful idea of a supernatural creator-entity to manifest the ILLUSION that your ideas correlate to 'facts'. Finally... it reveals that you presume, for yourself, a form of omniscience... thinking that goes like this: "If this were understandable, then I should be able to understand (or imagine) it. Since I do NOT (can not) understand (or imagine) it... it logically follows that it is NOT understandable... by ANYONE. Since it is NOT understandable by anyone, it logically follows that it cannot be 'true'. Therefore... God did it." (See? Right back to the Argument from Incredulity.)

'Faith' (wishful, magical thinking) is a lame and pathetic substitute for 'evidence'.

'Belief' (the internalized 'certainty' that you are privy to the 'truth' pertaining to some fundamental aspect of existence and/or reality) is a lame and pathetic substitute for 'knowledge'... i.e., it is the ILLUSION of knowledge.

faith + belief --> self-deception, self-delusion and willful ignorance

"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance... it is the illusion of knowledge." ~ Daniel Boorstin

"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion." ~ Robert M. Pirsig

You seem to have taken note of what I wrote to Zack, above... I hope that you paid particular attention to the part about there being a whole INDUSTRY (Christianity) whose BUSINESS it is to create whole generations of adults who are, at once, gullible, irrational, willfully ignorant, self-deluded, intellectually dishonest, hypocritical and droolingly stupid. They become the intellectual inheritors of that ancient Greek sage... Moronicus. Or, I guess it could be Idiothenes or Dumbassticus... I can never keep those guys straight. Anyway... the things that you have said here testify to the fact that they do their jobs quite well. No surprise, really... they have been refining and perfecting their mind-manipulation techniques for about 1,700 years.

Mark Eaton wrote: "But yet Christ died for you even though you hate Him and say that He did not exist."

You really have no concept of how stupid that sentence is... do you?

Stated above:

>>In fact, there's nothing cheaper than saying, 'My spirituality is the only spirituality, my religion is the only thing that confers real humanity upon people...'

Cal Thomas didnt say 'My spirituality is the only spirituality....etc etc'

He said God is the author of agape love. God is not a religion.

Twisting and inflections on what was actually said makes the person who stated the above quote less credible that he/she makes the author of the post to be.

Dear DuckPhup:

Your stories are humorous. You wow me with your intelligence. But, please tell me how YOU created the world, now that you have the mind of God. Or do you believe you were once a protozoa that became an ape that became a man? Or do you pretend not to believe anything and we got here by what...accident? These people you hang out with that believe REAL things, what do they believe? That there is no God at all and man created this planet? That the planet just exploded from...what? How can something come from nothing without a God or someone like God to create it? Any and all answers please?

Believe what you like, it is your choice. Only don't bash me just because you do not agree. I never bashed you for your crazy theories.

I think anyone speaking about Christianity should have intimate knowledge of it. What does it mean? To BE like Christ. To live like Christ, to talk like Christ. Let me do some teaching here.

Honestly, I would love to tell all Christian bashers where to go and who to visit while you are there. But is that love? Do I love you? Would I die for you? But yet Christ died for you even though you hate Him and say that He did not exist. Is that love? Yes. Is that agape love? Yes. Self-sacrificial love is agape love. God demonstrated it for us. Christ demonstrated it. We only copy his example. Whatever word you want to use, it is God's love that is supreme.

Many have said that the Golden Rule is not Christian. Excuse me, but you are wrong. Read Romans 1:18-19. We are without excuse because God has made His laws plain to us. How exactly did He do that? Consience, that's how. Do you not find it strange that every culture on the face of this planet, however educated or ignorant, isolated or worldly, have basically the same set of do and don'ts? Do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not covet and lust. God infused these laws into us by way of our conscience. We all have them as part of us. It is undeniable. We think we have dreamed these laws up but we are just being arrogant. They are God's laws.

Christian love is demonstrated by molesting little boys, Cal.

Duckphup,

a story that tries to convince you that god crucified himself (trinity, lol!) for atoning for the "sins" that the perfect products of his creation ("god's image") committed, must be intentionally designed to dissolve all residue of human intelligence like sulfuric acid.

The sad part: It works, at least with so many minds that have been poisoned by this and similar fairy tales. We live in a phase of human evolution a couple of thousand years too soon (can you see my optimism and trust in evolution?).

The only reason I would like to have some afterlife once in a while is the curiosity about the question if humanity will have succeeded to evolve a little more. Otherwise, the idea of an "eternal life" (an oxymoron) gives me the measles, having to think I might have to "live" next door to people like Cal Thomas, in case we make it to heaven, lol.

Paganplace - I think you might be confusing Cal Thomas with Chuck Colson - the one complicit in Watergate.

Zack wrote (October 21, 2007 4:57 PM): "If you really think Christians are insane psychopaths, then this country was founded by a group of mentally insane and disturbed individuals? HA!!!! The Constitution, and everything this country stands for, was established by a bunch of freaks? YOU are abiding by the rules set forth at the foundation of this county, created by a bunch of psychopaths??? I think not. This country has done pretty darn good. And it is INSANE to say that this country is here because a group of psychopaths. See, you don't even think about what you are saying, and what it all entails. Just because someone believes in a God who allows His only son to die for to save mankind, does NOT make them insane!!!"

Actually... (you would do well to go back and check)... I never used the word 'psychopath'.

Anyway, Zack... you have been bamboozled. To see HOW THOROUGHLY you have been bamboozled... before proceeding with reading the rest of this, TAKE THIS QUIZ: http://ffrf.org/quiz/ffrfquiz.php

So... you're back. Didn't do so well, did you? OK... pay attention, please... the USA is NOT a christian nation... DESPITE the lies that have been told to you by your religious puppet-masters. It is a 'secular' nation with lots of christians in it. Our Founding fathers went to great lengths to assure that would NOT be a christian nation. Our form of government was NOT based on any christian or biblical doctrine or writings... it is rooted in the secular humanist ideals of the 'Enlightenment' and the 'Age of Reason'... when mankind began to THROW OFF the yoke of christian biblical theocracy, and develop a reason and consensus-based concept of the 'rights of man', based on MORAL principles... not 'biblical' principles. The authority of the US government is derived from the 'consent of the government'... NOT from the christian 'divine right of kings', upon which the European governments were based. The authors of the constitution were not christians... they were Dieists.

The 'law of the land' was based upon the Code of Hammurabi (which predates the 10 Commandments by at least 1,000 years), English Common Law, and other sources which included Greek and Roman law. The IDEA for having a 'constitution' came from the Constitution of the Iroquois Confederation.

The 'Treaty of Tripoli' (June 7, 1797) specifically states, in Article 11: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen (Moslems); and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation (Islam), it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." This treaty, unanimously approved by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams only a few years after the ratification of the Constitution, is taken by constitutional scholars to be a clear and unambiguous declaration of the intent of the founders. See: www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/buckner_tripoli.html

For a HISTORICAL deconstruction of the LIE that the laws of our country are based upon Mosaic Law and the 10 Commandments, see this: www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/ten_commandments.htm

For a LEGAL deconstruction of the LIE that the laws of our country are based upon Mosaic Law and the 10 Commandments, see this (by a Christian): writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20030911.html

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and... know nothing but the word of God." ~ Martin Luther

Your ignorance is not entirely your own fault. There is a whole INDUSTRY (Christianity) whose BUSINESS it is to create whole generations of adults who are, at once, gullible, irrational, willfully ignorant, self-deluded, intellectually dishonest, hypocritical and droolingly stupid... and willing to tithe 10% for the privledge of having their cognitive dissonance held in check through regular doses of pious and holy bullsh|t.

Religious 'shepherds' KNOW that their 'flock' (sheeple) are scientifically ignorant and incapable of critical thinking... because they've been PROGRAMMED to be ignorant. They KNOW that they are suspicious of 'scientific' sources , and find them to be intimidating and incomprehensible... because they've been CONDITIONED to distrust them. These puppet-masters KNOW that their flock (victims) will seek their 'knowledge' from 'trusted' sources... these very-same puppet-masters. When the sheeple hear things like 'scientists claim that humans and apes shared a common ancestor, in the distant past', they experience 'cognitive dissonance'... this information is in conflict with the 'truth' that they have believed for their whole lives. So... where do they go to resolve this cognitive dissonance?... Scientists?... NO! They go to their 'trusted' sources... the sources who KNOW that they have been taught WHAT to think... they have not been taught HOW to think. Sources who KNOW that they can lie, obfuscate, misrepresent with impunity... with absolutely NO RISK that their minions will seek out independent, peer-reviewed corroborating information.

They do their jobs very well indeed... as can be seen here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xKDKq_PPbk&mode=related&search=

Finally... if you REALLY think that you are intellectually honest (and not just brainwashed and bamboozled) you should look into the fact that modern biblical scholarship makes a very compelling case for the idea that Jesus NEVER EXISTED AT ALL... that he was, in fact, entirely fictional. Richard Carrier's review of 'The Jesus Puzzle' is probably the best place to start, if you're interested in investigating this... www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/jesuspuzzle.shtml

Cause I wanna hear this: you're billed as a 'political columnist' *here,* but elsewhere, you're touted as the Resident's 'spiritual advisor.'

I lived in *Texas* when he as governor pronounced my religion as not 'real' and deserving Constitutional protection.

Let's hear it, Mr. Thomas. Am I American or not?

Cause it's funny how your smug look and Christian supremacism just keep seeming to leave me fuzzy on that issue.

Still, Mr. Thomas....

(Reverend, actually, according to some credentials I've seen elsewhere.)

If you have the President's ear, as you presented yourself in another column I happen to have run across just this week...

Well...

How do you reconcile your idea that only your religion has 'the truth' with stuff like our President's insistence that, say, Wiccans aren't a 'real religion,' apparently even when they die in Afghanistan?

You may have some Christian theology about it, but how about America, Watergate boy?

Care to mix it up, or is this more lie-and-deny?

Let's hear it, sport, not that your true colors aren't shown.

Yes, it appears this dude has a byline of 'Spiritual advisor to the President,' in other venues.

I mean.

Whoa.

Gods help us.

Hey, E-favorite, just cause he's a Watergate criminal who has found a ne redeemed life as a spiritual advisor to Dubya's doing-the-same-things, doesn't mean he's bad or anything, when he says not believing as he does makes you an 'enemy,' does it?

Cal: "He demonstrated what real love looks like by dying in our place"

But not for long! just 3 days later he was alive again - and for eternity, no less. Not that much of a sacrifice, when you think about it. Everyone else who dies for their friends dies forever. And if they're not Christian, they go to hell - according to what you believe.

Zack - the author's name is Bart Erhman and the book is "Misquoting Jesus."

Apologies, but I misplaced an end quote in the above, from the stuff that Anonymous quoted: this response begins, appropriately-enough, with "What I'm saying." :)

Well, Anonymous poster: (pick a name, it's easy, BTW)

"" Anonymous:

Mr Thomas stated:

''Only God can define love (agape)''

..yet, someone on this thread retorts:

>>Stunning how some will dehumanize others by claiming, in effect, 'Only Christians know love.'

Sorry, but just because you dont believe in a creator God..that certainly doesnt validate your 'in effect' statement.""

No, but the premise you claim I'm basing my statement on doesn't apply, either.

What I'm saying is that in Thomas' own words, he defines 'people who know love' as people within his own group, because that's what people within his own group say...

And that, yes, that's nothing more than claiming that people outside his group don't experience spirituality or real human love.

He's tring to define non-Christians' as incapable of love, cause he says so.

If that's not dehumanizing, I don't know what is.

" Any perceptive human being would know that the world as a whole, which includes Christiandom, has not been the epitome of agape love with all of the wars this world has experienced. Its a stunning, cheap shot, though, at Christians to make a remark like that."

Whatever you're getting at, there, no, I'm not the one making a 'cheap shot.'

In fact, there's nothing cheaper than saying, 'My spirituality is the only spirituality, my religion is the only thing that confers real humanity upon people...'

If it's a 'cheap shot' to point that out, consider that some of us don't live according to this idea of 'shots' like there was someone to shoot.

If there's anything cheap about this, consider I was just reading his words and premises back to him.

And if the shoe fits, well, consider it ain't cheap. It's free.

How much do you want it to cost?

Zack
I DO truly admire your desire to learn. Don't just take my word for it, but...
you would learn more if rather than make statements here that are argumentative (in the good sense)

you restricted yourself to asking questions that were truly open=ended, and that incorporated your awareness that you probably don't know the answers to most of these questions.

For instance: if you ASKED
"how did the religious beliefs of the founders of the US affect their structuring of the constitution"

rather than stating that their Christian beliefs DID affect it

you would learn more and be a more intelligent conversant.

Your spirit is good. you are a good person. my advice:
ask, don't tell.

peace
henry

Henry James,

Yes your absolutely right. I am not the oldest, nor smartest individual on this forum. I do make grammatical errors all over the place, and I do have a tough time expressing what I want to say in words, none the less writing it (or in this case, typing) on paper. I love to learn, and am open to anyone's opinion and/or suggestions, and I will definitely look into that book. Thank you.

wiccan,

Bushmills?? So why did you have to drink that protestant sheep dip swill.

Couldn't you find any good whisky - oh.....say.......Lagavulin?

Cal, let's start a BCS pool.

What will the rankings be at the end of the season.

Sorry ......... back to topic.

I read something today that really resonated with me.

jonny has a very good point:

"Oldest con game in the history of humanity:

I know things that YOU don't know.
I have powers that YOU don't have.
I know beings that YOU can't know.
They tell ME things -- things that they don't tell YOU.
YOU can only know this crap if you listen to ME.
Look, here's a book -- I know what it MEANS -- you DON'T. I'LL tell YOU.

Oldest con there is -- and STILL the most evil".

Zach
you are safe in operating on the assumption that everything YOU think is true is NOT true.

for instance, jesus and god are not used to justify or undergird the US constitution at all. most founders who did believe in a god were Deists. do you know what that means? look it up if not.

jefferson most likely didn't believe in a god at all.

i feel quite confident in assuming everything you say is incorrect, even if i don't factually know it to be incorrect. i recommend you adopt the same procedure. you give other believers on this site a bad name by putting yourself in their category.

love and compassion
henry

Duckphup

I have to admit...you used very cunning and persuasive diction. VERY good. But your wrong. Again, you exaggerated the truth and made something soooo simple look absolutely horrid.

Christ die for your sins. His blood washes away the tainted blood given to every one of us by Adam's sin. He rose from the dead as a picture of conquering death so that every one has the opportunity of living forever in Heaven, or dying forever in Hell. He was not obsessed with blood and sacrifices. They were simply pictures of what was going to happen in order to save us from our sins. Jesus was called the Lamb of God, and the blood sacrifices mentioned in the Bible have to do with lambs, as a picture of Jesus being slain for YOUR sins!

Now, what I just said does not imply insanity by ANY means.

Think of this. If you really think Christians are insane psychopaths, then this country was founded by a group of mentally insane and disturbed individuals? HA!!!! The Constitution, and everything this country stands for, was established by a bunch of freaks? YOU are abiding by the rules set forth at the foundation of this county, created by a bunch of psychopaths??? I think not. This country has done pretty darn good. And it is INSANE to say that this country is here because a group of psychopaths. See, you don't even think about what you are saying, and what it all entails. Just because someone believes in a God who allows His only son to die for to save mankind, does NOT make them insane!!!

Zack my friend:
Let me try to say this kindly.
You display an evident inability to use the English language on the most basic level.

This is a clear indication that your capacity for logical thought is rudimentary (look this word up in a dictionary if you have one).

You need to do some serious study, first of English and critical thinking, and then of serious writers, not crackpots like many religious writers.

If you insist on reading religious texts, read someone like Brad Ehrman or Garry Wills.

But understand that your thinking at this point is so flawed that you need to rebuild your structure of thought by going back to the beginning.

One small and recurrent example of your many grammatical errors:
you use "your" when you should write "you're". The fact that you have no idea you are making this mistake is symptomatic of your larger difficulty in thinking about these issues.

Realist

Yes, I apologize, it was me saying that. I have made that mistake a few times, and again I apologize.

I thought about the last few comments, and it dawned on me that there was a huge misunderstand. When you said "we" you mean US personally..."we" as individuals. When I said "we," I meant the human race. You're absolutely right. WE, as individuals, are not born perfect. I am just as bad of a person as anyone else on this earth, and I definitely was not born perfect. I've made some stupid decisions in my life, just as everyone else has. No one is born perfect. But, what I was trying to say is that the human race was not created flawed. God did not create Adam and Eve sinful. Thats all I was trying to say, and it was a misunderstanding on my part. Sorry.

On another note, you quoted a great statement that is absolutely true. You shouldn't believe or put all of your trust in something just because someone higher, smarter, or older than you told you it was truth. Your absolutely right. The quote also states that by your own logic and common sense should be the one and only factor to what you believe in. But that is totally wrong. You yourself admitted that you are flawed, and not perfect, correct? Couldn't that mean that your logic or common sense might be wrong? Could it be possible that there are things in this world that you cannot understand, no matter how many PhD's you may have? You can't live your life based on your own logic. The greatest minds in history did not agree on everything. Yet, I GUARANTEE you that every single one of them thought that their logic was correct. But obviously, someone had to be wrong, correct? How do you know your not wrong? How do you know that just because somethings not logical, then it can not be true?

Duckphup;

That is beautiful!

I hope Zack ponders your words of wisdom and realizes it's all a scam.
How people believe it all in the first place is beyond me.

Duckphup,
You have a really subtle delicate way with words. Could you be a bit more clear? :-)

Zack wrote: "Too many people, like yourself, are so quick to accuse Christians of being stupid and unlearned individuals by foiling the truth and taking what we believe and doctoring it up to make us sound like psychopaths."

OK... so... you believe that a cosmic Jewish zombie, who is his own father, can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced (by a talking snake with legs) to eat a piece of fruit from a magical tree... (etc.)... and that there is something horribly wrong with people who ARE NOT so gullible and droolingly stupid as to believe such outrageously ridiculous codswallop...

... and that is NOT insane... how, exactly?

The god of the Abrahamic death cults of desert monotheism was often 'appeased' by blood sacrifice. It is well documented in the Wholly Babble that he thoroughly enjoyed a good barbecue... and that a generous serving of blood COULD get him to change his mind. In the gospels, though, he set up his own son/self to be cruelly tortured and suffer a gruesome and agonizing death... in a perverse public spectacle of blood sacrifice... to APPEASE... guess who?... HIMSELF.

Now I sure don't want to be blasphemous or heretical here... and I don't know about you... but the folks that I hang around with... SANE people... tend to think that this kind of behavior is indicitive of some kind of mental disorder.

Oh... yeah... and BELIEVING that this sort of thing is somehow 'good' is ALSO symptomatic of some kind of mental disorder. Well... either that, or it is irrefutable evidence of brainwashing. It's GOT to be one or the other... it sure isn't indicitive of sanity.

I wish I could spell. :-)

Zack (I assume it was Zack - it wasn't me) wrote:
Also, you said "Perhaps the mythical Adam and Eve were created perfect and without sin. Actually if that was the case, Eve would not have been tempted by the snake." I don't quite follow your logic there. Could you explain a little more?

I meant that if Eve was created perfect and without sin, wouldn't she be above temptation? Anyway I don't think it matters whether Adam and Eve were created perfect or not. The point is that we are not born perfect. From my perspective, debating about Adam and Eve is like arguing about the colour of the tooth fairy's wings.

The point is that we are all born human. Nobody is perfect. We don't have a choice about that - it's part of our nature. I don't think it's sensible to condemn humanity to eternal torture just for being born, which is pretty much the standard interpretation of original sin amongst most Christian sects.

Of course our human nature makes perfect sense in the light of evolution. We all have tendencies for both kindness and cruelty, selfishness and altruism. I think the best way to deal with our nature is to gain as much understanding of it as possible, and science has proven over and over again that it is the best tool we have for learning about ourselves and the world we live in. Religion has had very little to offer in improving our understanding, and much of the progress humanity has made has been through fighting the enforced ignorance of religion.

Unlike many of my fellow atheists, I think there is a lot of value in religion. If the Dalai Lama can motivate people to be more kind and compassionate, then that's a good thing. I think one of the main reasons that almost all cultures have had religions is that they are a means to control our human nature.

What I don't like about religions is that they tend to be based on arbitrary myths and their morals are also fairly arbitrary. Morality should be based on what benefits it provides to individuals and to society, not on some arbitrary set of rules written down by people who were a lot more ignorant than we are today. Buddhism seems to be a bit of an exception to this, so I have a lot of respect for Buddhism.

I can't put it better than this:
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
Hindu Prince Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C.

That seems to be to be a healthy attitude. Of course that advise lead me to reject most of Buddhism as well :-)

Regards,
Realist

I agree 100% on what you just said. Your absolutely right when you say "Christian theology insists that I was born a sinner because of actions performed by Adam and Eve." BUT, thats not what you said in the previous comment. You said that God purposefully created us originally with sin, and now He is punishing us for the way He created us...and if that were true, your absolutely right by saying that makes no sense. Why would God create us imperfect, and then punish us for being imperfect? Yeah, that makes no sense at all. But thats not what happened. You ask the question why would God put the tree and snake in the garden? You look at it as some sort of game, but try looking at it a little bit differently. God created you, and He created you with a free will to choose God, or sin. He did not create you as robots and forces you to do what He wants. Think about it. That would be pointless. He wants you to willingly choose Him, and thats why he gave Adam a choice. Either He chooses Himself, or God. Thats what it comes down to. God did not create the human race because He was bored and decided to play a game with us. I apologize if I interpreted your comment wrongly, but to me it sounded like you were exaggerating a beliefs to make Christians and God sound like nut cases. My apologies.

Also, you said "Perhaps the mythical Adam and Eve were created perfect and without sin. Actually if that was the case, Eve would not have been tempted by the snake." I don't quite follow your logic there. Could you explain a little more?

Mr Thomas stated:

''Only God can define love (agape)''

..yet, someone on this thread retorts:

>>Stunning how some will dehumanize others by claiming, in effect, 'Only Christians know love.'

Sorry, but just because you dont believe in a creator God..that certainly doesnt validate your 'in effect' statement. Any perceptive human being would know that the world as a whole, which includes Christiandom, has not been the epitome of agape love with all of the wars this world has experienced. Its a stunning, cheap shot, though, at Christians to make a remark like that.

Zack wrote:
"You could not be any more wrong that you already are. God DID NOT create us flawed. If you know ANYTHING about the Christian faith, you would know that Christianity's foundation is found in Genesis, where it says we were made in God's image...without sin. We were not created flawed, and God din not create us with sin."

I'm just going on what Christians tell me. I'm happy to be proved wrong if I'm wrong. I was referring to the concept of "original sin", not about the creation of Adam and Eve.

Zack, I was raised as a Christian, so I do know something of Christianity. For many years, I used to go to church every Sunday and had lots of the Bible preached at me. It was through reading the Bible that I first began to have my doubts about Christianity.

I don't believe that I was born perfect. I get angry, I'm lazy, arrogant and selfish and sometimes inconsiderate. It's in my nature. I have to work hard to overcome it. I don't think any of us are born perfect.

There is a great article on original sin on Wikipedia with lots of Bible references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

I didn't mean to misrepresent Christian theology. Perhaps the mythical Adam and Eve were created perfect and without sin. Actually if that was the case, Eve would not have been tempted by the snake. Don't you think? It doesn't make sense to me. Why would God put the tree and the snake in the garden of Eden? Was it some kind of sadistic game?

Anyway the point I was making is that I understand that Christian theology insists that I was born a sinner because of actions performed by Adam and Eve. That makes no sense! Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Regards,
Realist

The ratio of

the Dalai Lama's Wisdom
to
Cal Thomas's Wisdom

is a good approximate illustration
of the
Infinite

Rafael:

The christian theology is all about confusion because they never looked at what Jesus said. It was a simple message. That wasn't good enough for them, so they gathered and democratically elected Jesus as god. You know the rest!

It's not clear to me, then, how humans could be both without flaw and capable of the steps that would lead them to being flawed. Isn't the capacity to sin, whether or not created with sin, a flaw in itself? Because surely God doesn't have that capacity?

Insisting that Genesis says "created in God's image" doesn't solve the logic problem. But no doubt you'll have a good, logic-twisted explanation, because logical inconsistency is ironically the only way to salvage what you claim to be the TRUTH.

Realist,

Before you start your Christian bashing ordeal, I'd suggest you get your facts straight about the "Christian story."

You could not be any more wrong that you already are. God DID NOT create us flawed. If you know ANYTHING about the Christian faith, you would know that Christianity's foundation is found in Genesis, where it says we were made in God's image...without sin. We were not created flawed, and God din not create us with sin.

This is only one point you have wrong among many in your comment, and I honestly don't have time to argue about something you choose not to accept.

Too many people, like yourself, are so quick to accuse Christians of being stupid and unlearned individuals by foiling the truth and taking what we believe and doctoring it up to make us sound like psychopaths. Before you start making accusations or assumptions, you should make sure they are correct. Read your Bible, and then you will know what we believe. Go read Genesis, and THEN you can talk. What the Bible says is the exact opposite of what you've stated. The Christian faith is solely based on the Bible, and before you go around telling people what YOU think we believe, read, and find out the TRUTH.

Elcio Brazil wrote:

"There's no reason to try to convince people with natural arguments."

Is there any other kind of argument? The problem is you people are not trying to convince others that God exists because that's an easy one. The real problem is that you want Jesus to be god too! That one needs convincing and I don't see anything in the bible that suggests that. So you are on your own on that one. No faith, bible, or human logic can support your "theory". What can you do now?!!!

I was once asked what it would take to make me believe in God.
I said,"Ten or fifteen years of childhood indoctrination ought to do it".
Fortunately that never happened.So I'm still sane,
and see no reason to believe a god ever existed.

i entirely agree with your position. There's no reason to try to convince people with natural arguments. Accept that Jesus is more than a simple man, but a real God, is a position of faith. Deny this eternal truth is put your soul in dangerous. But anyone will respond to God by himself.

I live in Brazil, and I'm master engineer.

I entirely agree with your position. There's no reason to try to convince people with natural arguments. Accept that Jesus is more than a simple man, but a real God, is a position of faith. Deny this eternal truth is put your soul in dangerous. But anyone will respond to God by himself.

I live in Brazil, and I'm master engineer.

I entirely agree with your position. There's no reason to try to convince people with natural arguments. Accept that Jesus is more than a simple man, but a real God, is a position of faith. Deny this eternal truth is put your soul in dangerous. But anyone will respond to God by himself.

I live in Brazil, and I'm master engineer.

I entirely agree with your position. There's no reason to try to convince people with natural arguments. Accept that Jesus is more than a simple man, but a real God, is a position of faith. Deny this eternal truth is put your soul in dangerous. But anyone will respond to God by himself.

I live in Brazil, and I'm master engineer.

Allowing someone to be tortured and killed for no sensible purpose is not an act of love!

It makes no sense. It's more like an act of psychosis!

The Christian story goes something like this:
- God creates us all flawed and sinful and blames us for something we didn't do.
- Then our loving God sacrifices Jesus (aka God), who is supposedly innocent, to Himself in a bloody spectacle to convince himself to forgive us and not torture us for eternity for being the way He made us in the first place.

In case you haven't realised, that's not Love, that's madness!

Regards,
Realist

"No other "religious leader" foretold his resurrection and then proved He was who He said He was (and is) by fulfilling that prophecy."

This reminds me of the christian belief system that "the father is one god, the holy spirit is one god, and Jesus is one god, but ALL these three are one!". No amount of good english will ever make this plausible.

"He demonstrated what real love looks like by dying in our place "even while we were yet sinners.""

But sir, I hear that Jesus was crying "God, God, why have you forsaken me?"

I don't think that was an expression of love, but rather a human being trying to plead his case to his God asking Him to let this one pass, i.e., Jesus did not want to die. I do not see the love you are talking about here. Can anyone else see it???

Poor christians! They put themselves in a historical corner by fabricating the "good news" and ending up making no sense trying to interpret a scripture that's 100% against their logic!

I'm sorry, but ol' Cal is one strange looking dude. Looks like an aging pervert that probably wears diapers and plays with his poop.

Stunning how some will dehumanize others by claiming, in effect, 'Only Christians know love.'

How the heck would you know, Mr. Thomas?

>>Agape is a Greek term that was defined 400 years before Christ was (?) born.

Ahava (ah-hehv) is a Hebrew word before that which defined love and giving.

>>people like you say: Oh, we can't challenge our authorities, even when they are being genocidal or war mongering, because it is not POLITE to point out their ignorance of the most basic facts of human history.

You, sir, are the epitome of why the world is in the shape it is in.

'People like you...' ...what gall. You dont know me from the man in the moon.

I remember a more polite world a few generations ago. Its people like you that fail mankind, not Cal Thomas. He just expressed an opinon.

Bgone,

>>mentally deficient they don't even know what they themselves believe.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul
..talk about mentally deficient

You and your web site seem to be a good example of that.

Great thoughts Cal. I often appreciate your well thought, biblical responses.

...and another swing-and-a-miss from Cal. lol.

What?????????

Excuse me. I should be polite and pretend that Cal Thomas's egregious (look it up) ignorance of the history of Western Thought, at the same time that he has the audacity to present himself as some kind of authority,

should be passed over without comment.

Your posture is of the type that enables incompetent know-nothings like Bush to go to war without knowing what they are getting into.

people like you say: Oh, we can't challenge our authorities, even when they are being genocidal or war mongering, because it is not POLITE to point out their ignorance of the most basic facts of human history.

Thomas is in the same category. He knows virtually nothing, and has never shown evidence of having an original thought in his life. Have you? or do you just accept what the authorities tell you?///???? He said politely.

Politeness is NOT the highest virtue. Truth is a higher virtue.

WHAT? Non believers? Everybody believes something. No one knows what others believe and there are those so mentally deficient they don't even know what they themselves believe. You seem to be a good example of that. Be careful showing that off else Cal will sue you for patent infringement.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul is what you say you and what Cal says he believes. I wonder if you really believe it or are you just saying you believe. There is a lot of money in faith but only for those leading the multitudes to hell.

...deluded.....ignoramus

Non-belivers are such kind people, arent they? They point out to any Christian that, if they even think of using words like those above....well...there is just no way they could love, care and have real concern for their fellow man...

True colors. Non-believers are more hypocrites than they think that believers are.

By the way, mankinds overall rehearsal of agape love has lacked since the beginning. They can sure teach and tout it...but they certainly arent the authors of it.