All Comments (81)

Rock on bro

Dear What? -

Boy, you're impossible.

All I asked for was a straight yes and no answer as to whether or not you read Greek. I already said I was envious of Arminus being able to read Greek, so it stands to reason that I'd be envious of you as well.

I am not looking for a flaw in you as a person, but I admit that I am looking for a flaw in your argument (ie: that one can't fully understand the Bible if one can't read it in the original Greek). You said quite clearly that guys like BGone and me were "like the blind leading the blind" because our knowledge of the Bible came not from being able to read it in Greek, but by reading it in a flawed translation. The implication is you CAN read Greek, so your knowledge of scripture is more direct than mine.

If you can read Greek, then I concede the point that you can gain a more-direct insight into the verses you read in Greek than I can in an English translation (though it's entirely possible that I've read more of the Bible than you, and - as BGone points out - reading and comprehension are not the same thing). If that's the case, you win, I'm your humble servant, and we're off to the next argument.

If, however, you can't read Greek and you're simply comparing a supposed "more accurate" rendering of the Greek in some non-KJV translation, then you are just as much at the mercy of the foibles of a given translator as anybody who reads KJV. And if THAT'S the case, why rail against we English-dependent readers in the first place?

I'm sorry to be such a nudge about this, but we live in an Orwellian age where things are not always as they seem. Vocal opponents of gay rights feel free to pontificate in the Senate about the same while reserving the right to participate in "non-straight" sex acts in airport bathrooms. So you'll excuse me if I bother to ask whether or not you practice what you preach.

I will say that I owe an apology - to me. I promised myself that I'd stay away from these tiresome debates. What? isn't the first Xian I've debated here who can't or won't answer a simple yes or no question with a simple yes or no answer, and he certainly won't be the last to play the victim card when his position unravels at the hands of the nasty, dirty, Blue Meanie atheists.

So, you don't read Greek. Case closed, argument destroyed.

BTW - I agree with you that Christian religious practices are pagan-based. I'm also glad to learn that you're happily married with kids (me too, though I've only been married for 18 years and our kids are young). And, I accept your apology, though it wasn't necessary - nothing you've written was "curt, short or cutting."

I think I need another 4-week hiatus from this blog.

I learned a lot on this thread. I never knew that Jesus wrote the bible in Greek.

Bgone, Mr Mark, What? -- you should take that act on the road. It was hilarious.

Who's on first?
What?
No, he's on third.

Mr Mark, it's not if What? reads Greek. Anyone can read it but can What? understand it. Judging from What?'s posts I wager in the negative.

JD:

BGONE, Why do you keep refering to that silly website that itself is jibberish?

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul is a Bible lesson so everything degrading you say about it is therefore so for that reason alone. It's all those direct quotes from the Bible along with the OFFICIAL pictures, (photographs?) from sacred scriptures.

The Devil makes you say bad things about that web site loaded down with the word of,, of,, ah,, you know, your God that lives in the fire of hell.:)

What? writes: "You know, I recall bullies in school that did the same manipulating of others minds and included all of their rowdy friends when they wanted to have someone cornered to answer something the way they wanted the cornered person to answer it."

It's truly amazing how good of a job 'The Simpsons' creators did with Flanders.

somalitrade? Just calling out into the etherworld of the internet to see if your there. The gravity is intense in here isn't it? Look how quickly everything falls back to the dirt in here.

Until we figure out He is everyday, everywhere and live the right way, our path to destruction is inevitable. Until we do what is good and treat everything with the respect He expects, then things shall only get worse in the world. It is not something I have made up but has been preached to us from the beginning and we turned a deaf ear, so now it is only time, and just like prior generations we shall pay for the previous and so on until it changes. For now it is just when will it happen and only the Father knows. So live life and live with faith and respect and if tomorrow is your last be thankful that you lived accordingly and at judgment he will welcome you with open arms. The path isn’t hard if you take a look down the wrong path , the grass looks greener but quickly turns to tall thorny weeds. God Bless and peace be welcomed by you. Matthew

Mr Mark,

If your still not sure...sorry.

You know, I recall bullies in school that did the same manipulating of others minds and included all of their rowdy friends when they wanted to have someone cornered to answer something the way they wanted the cornered person to answer it. I wasnt born yesterday. I perceive you have the intelligence to know whether I read greek or not.
I also perceive you dont care a hill of beans if I read greek, french or mohican fluently. I perceive you look for flaws in people like Christians. What do I say to that? So what.

Let me put it to you straight. You may think the things I have personally studied into a bit unbelievable, but the fact is that we all know atheists dont believe what Christians believe at all. Scripture states that the adversary has deceived the whole world. I take that to be the majority of mankind thru the ages. I believe that my Lord and Savior meant what he said. Three days and three nights. When scripture tells me that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever...and he was the Word at creation, and he instructed us to not follow the heathen..that there is something overall fundamentally wrong with the way mankind worships God...using practices of pagan origin to worship Him.

I bid you a good day, as I go along on my journey of studies and living a good life with my wife of 28 years and our children.

My apologies if I have come across curt, short or cutting.

Dear What? -

I inferred that you lacked spine because you couldn't admit that your claiming that Jesus died in a specific year (on a Wednesday, no less!) was pure speculation on your part. You said it was speculation in a roundabout way, but your seem unable to just admit what anyone who has read our exchange knows to be true, ie: that you elevated speculation to the point of documented fact.

You implied that you knew this to be a fact because - unlike most people - you get your Biblical ideas from the original Greek. The implication is clear - you can read Greek, we don't, and therefore you know what the Gospels really say while the rest of us are getting erroneous info from bad translations.

I simply asked you to state whether or not you read Greek.

I take it from your last post that you DON'T read Greek...but I'm still not sure.

Anyone else out there - Freestinker, BGONE, et al. What do you think? Does What? read Greek or not???

Thanx.

JD

Re: BGONE

Tohu and bohu is about the only thing that comes to mind. Thats about all I can glean from his posts and website he endorses.

BGONE, Why do you keep refering to that silly website that itself is jibberish? It has no validity except that it resides on a harddrive somewhere that if the HD crashed it would cease to exist and would have to be recreated using a flawed human beings mind. Who are you trying to save BGONE? This is what you do, make up more monikers and they can sing the praises of your belief system and then your )dk&aj%ow# will be complete.

Of course all this atheist bashing is off topic, however. Katrina and 9-11, can be explained by simply noting that the God most every one has in mind is really the failed at being God Devil, Lucifer.

Now you are free to argue that Devil is merciful or not as you see it. The evidence leans heavily towards no mercy as one would expect from Devil in my opinion.

Moses making a deal with Devil explains a lot of the differences between what faith promises and reality. Don't you think?

Mr Mark

Name calling?
So your 'Poppy Bush', or refering to someone you dont even know (me) as someone without spine (aka spineless?)... are these not name calling?

Methinks that thou showests your hypocracy much.

Dish it out but cant take it, huh?

btw...

>>compare english and greek without actually being able to read greek.

W-I-T-H-O-U-T A-C-T-U-A-L-L-Y B-E-I-N-G A-B-L-E T-O R-E-A-D G-R-E-E-K

is the same as no.

Sooooo very sorry that is so confusing to you.

.

JD:

You're not confusing me with atheists are you? I believe in God. Not one pinch of doubt. And I believe you are confusing Devil with God. As you falsely call me an atheist I know Jews, Christians and Muslims are all Devil worshipers.

Evidence: http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul Doesn't God demand that those who know the truth become missionaries and bring the "good news" to the whole world? Now you know why there is so much chaos on earth. Devil worshipers bring chaos, previews of hell for them.

Calling Devil God does not male Devil God but does make Devil happy. When you sing "How Great Thou Art" is that God or Devil you have in mind. Moses sold his soul to the Devil. If you're thinking the being in the burning bush, the one Moses made the deal with, that's not God. That's the biggest Devil of them all, Lord of Hell, the angel that would be God, Lucifer.

Atheists have nothing to answer to God for compared to those who do Devil's work. Nothing but atheists in heaven so far. Honor the first commandment first. Atheists do. They don't believe there is a Devil so you won't find them worshiping Devil.

Maybe you should try reading the Bible some time. How's your comprehension? The Bible is the word of Devil, the being on fire with the fire of hell. Lucifer is his Holy Name. How great Lucifer art but not as mighty as Michael.

somalitrade, no you are horribly wrong. Allah is not what Abraham called his God. That is a relative recent arab name, not Christian.

Is this true or not?

"Qur'an portrays Allah as both more powerful and more remote than Yahweh, and as a universal deity, unlike Yahweh who closely follows Israelites."

As a Muslim I expect to go straight to Paradise to be with Allah.(PBUH)
I expect to bevery happy there with wonderful accomdation wonderfl food and wonerful girls.
I cant hardly wait to finally be there.I will be so happy.

Facinating that unbelievers, YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD, you REJECT God and yet you spend your days on this web site damning Christians who do believe in God with absolutely NO evidence to justify your damning Christian believers. What are you doing here TROLLS!?

BGONE wrote: "You don't suppose Allah is just another name for Lucifer or did the angel Gabriel rebel against God too?"

No. It just happened that arab christians use the word Allah as a translation of the word God. It is just a translation of the same word. That's all...

somalitrade, you may well be onto something.

The main problem comes via the fact there is but one God yet Devils are almost unlimited in number. You don't suppose Allah is just another name for Lucifer or did the angel Gabriel rebel against God too? And, we must not overlook the angel Mormoni, the one that made his deal with Joseph Smith. Is he a "faithful" angel? Seems to be the same plan as the one made by Lucifer and Moses, get the chosen people to go somewhere they wouldn't ordinarily go. There's sure a lot of devils and they all want to take over heaven.

Then there are all the people being led to hell by the ministry. Devilishly clever how Lucifer recruits his NEXT army, says there's a fire extinguisher in heaven. You could say his gang is blazing hot with the fire that burns but does not consume.

Lucifer almost won last time. What about next time? Suppose all the leaders of all the fallen angels got together, "a coalition of the willing" sort of thing?

Be thankful that God is almighty and can take care of Godself, doesn't need help from people like Allah, Jehovah, Trinity, you know, the other one true God. Or are they really true Devils?

Your vengeful, humanlike, tribal god sure makes for a lot of confusion. That's what you get with anything created by committee....an f'n camel.

BGONE wrote: ".... miracle by followers of another Devil, Allah, while being a negative side miracle for others and even a zero in rare places."

I wonder why Jesus was calling that God "Eli Eli lemma sbahktani?" while on the cross! Eli Eli means "My Allah, My Allah" in Hebrew and in Arabic languages!!!

Dear What? -

I'll take your answer to be "no," that you can't read Greek. A simple yes or no would have done. You're the one railing on those who don't read the Bible in Greek. I asked a simple question that you won't answer.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Our friend Arminius reads Greek, and I envy him. My foreign languages are limited to French, German and Italian, and those to varying degrees of fluency (I don't count the Spanish I "learned" in HS as I didn't learn it very well). I do best in French, truth be told. I chose the languages that I studied based on my needs as a classical musician. Had I decided to be a Biblical scholar, I no doubt would have picked differently.

BTW -is the name calling you resorted to in your last post intended to make me back off asking a legitimate question? If you're going to go down that road, then why not take a page out of bushco's playbook and label me anti-American or unpatriotic?

So, do you read Greek?

Thanks again.

I say we all abide by the Golden Rule:

Everything I need to know about life, I learned in Kindergarten.

Mr Mark;

As my Grandfather used to say (usually when someone in his congregation was getting indignant over some minor doctrinal issue), the Bible can only be properly understood in it's original, God-given language...German.

Grandpa used to laugh...a lot...;-)

Regards

A hermit

Jesus did not say that He would send different translations of the bible to guide us into all Truth but He said that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide us into all Truth. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Do me a favor, Mr. Mark...ask your infantile question to others who pull out all kinds of commentaries, lexicons, compendiums and scores of other similar books to compare english and greek without actually being able to read greek...or any other language for that matter. Your attempt to make an issue out of nothing in pathetic. Your feeble attempt to make a point has no intelligent basis whatsover.

My teenage son asks more intelligent questions than you, my friend.

Dear What? -

You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask it again: do you read Greek?

Thanks.

>>I don't think a rehash of how pascha became Easter in KJV will serve any purpose other than to show that I already know what you're talking about. You may think it's a major issue in the church, I don't. Does it matter if Han Solo was left-handed or right-handed when the whole Star Wars story is a fiction? I don't think so.

Star Wars...Han Solo..compared to mistranslations that have mislead the masses for centuries????????

Believe me, my friend, it is a major issue...one of many similar issues (such as 'Good Friday' to Sunday morning adding up to 3 days and 3 nights) that have even affected your atheism and that will come to the forefront before all is said and done.

God is not the author of confusion.....3 guesses who is...

Editing mistake in my prior post:

The phrase "depending on more-translations of the Bible," should have appeared as "more-literal translations." The word "literal" was there, but I clipped it as I self-edited a bit of verbosity before posting (that's right, my posts are even more verbose before I cut them back and post them! Hard to believe, but true.)

Dear What? -

You write from the perspective that you have some kind of hidden knowledge about the Bible that only comes through being able to read it in the original Greek. So let me ask you directly - do you read Greek? Because if your championing the reading of the Bible in Greek really amounts to no more than your depending on more- translations of the Bible, then there are strengths and weaknesses there as well that would give the KJV a run for its money.

I only quote/cite the KJV as it is so well known. Don't take that to mean it's the only version I have read or own as I have at one time or another used the RSV, ASV, NAS, NIV, Good News, The New English, The Amplified and Young's in my readings.

It all comes down to how willing one is to suspend disbelief, doesn't it? As you yourself proved in the "what day did Jesus die?" discussion above, there is little fact behind ANY version of the Bible and a whole lot of myth and speculation about what means what.

I don't think a rehash of how pascha became Easter in KJV will serve any purpose other than to show that I already know what you're talking about. You may think it's a major issue in the church, I don't. Does it matter if Han Solo was left-handed or right-handed when the whole Star Wars story is a fiction? I don't think so.

And so it is with the Bible, whatever language or translation you choose to use.

To Cal Thomas: As you wrote, 'Jesus said, "In the world you will have tribulation." But He also said, "Be of good cheer for I have overcome the world." (John 16:33)', have you ever taken this to heart, Jesus did not say, I have overcome part of the world, did He? You also wrote, 'a merciful God offers redemption in and from this fallen world through Jesus Christ for all those who repent of their sin and put their faith and trust in Him.', well God has a Plan and has had This Plan since before creation and it is for all of His children to be with Him in His Kingdom, christianity is part of that Plan and one day some of the people that call themselves christians will know what christianity is about. On the cross Jesus said, "Father forgive them", He did not say forgive the repentent ones or anything to that effect, He simply said, "Father forgive them", when God speaks maybe we should believe what He says rather than adding to it which really subtracts from it, think about it.
As Jesus said, "The captives shall be released, the dead shall rise", Jesus spoke so simply and directly to us, we should not add or subtract from it because if we add to it, we subtract from it and if we subtract from it, we subtract from it, God wins Total Victory, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable, Thank God. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

With all due respect, Mr Mark, perhaps I wouldnt.

BGone a believer? Not sure of what realm. His web site is pretty well out in left field, yea, out in the parking lot beyond left field.

It is my perception that both of you fling red herrings with hardly any cursory study into anything beyond what the KJV presents.

At least thats what 'appears' to me to, coin your comment.

Perhaps you can enlighten me how the greek word pascha, meaning Passover, was changed to Easter by the KJ translators..and how that has or has not affected Christianity in and of itself?

'Elighten me' thru study or red herrings..your choice.

What? sez:

"Mr Mark,

There are certainly discrepancies between all historians and commentaries on this...even as there are in many other historical events that have happened thru the millenia. Doesnt mean someone cannot come to reasonable conclusions. Josephus was mentioned as an example...certainly not an end-all to a study, for sure.

One has to spend time exhaustively going thru all accounts with in-depth study...some things cannot be determined, fully, through scripture alone."

I agree with you on this point. Interpretation is everything, and the best interpretations are usually based on the most-copious examination of all the evidence and counter-evidence.

I would point out that your latest statement appears to be a 180º turn from your earlier statement that, "Mr Mark and Bgone are like the blind leading the blind," a rather big swipe you leveled at us in describing OUR good-faith efforts to reach what you term "reasonable conclusions."

Perhaps you'd like to modify your earlier remarks at this time?

So dark the con of man.....

(sorry, playing Joan Jett and could not resist.)

Come on, people.

When did all this get so *fricking hard?*

Mr Mark,

There are certainly discrepancies between all historians and commentaries on this...even as there are in many other historical events that have happened thru the millenia. Doesnt mean someone cannot come to reasonable conclusions. Josephus was mentioned as an example...certainly not an end-all to a study, for sure.

One has to spend time exhaustively going thru all accounts with in-depth study...some things cannot be determined, fully, through scripture alone.

Mr Mark:

You wrote, "And, once again, the atheist (me) does the Biblical legwork for the believer (BGONE). :)"

Correct. I believe it. I believe it. Like I said, I believe it. Now all we need do is find out what it is. It is a 2 letter word that must wait for the final on the true meaning of another 2 letter word, is.

Thanks for the help.

I finally found the "Apostles Creed" at the Pagan's web site. Maybe both atheist and Pagan is the outcropping of knowing what's in the Bible? You should be consulting with evangelical ministers. They don't have a clue what the Bible really says.

The Hebrews went by a Lunar calender...and still do. Passover depended on when the full moon was and the Vernal Equinox. It is still reckoned that way as Christians do for their Easter.

So depending on the full moon and the Equinox was when the passover was held and Jesus was arrested.

In ancient times, Passover was associated with the ripening of the barley crop. If you plant barley seeds after Sukkot in the fall, your crop will be nearing maturity by Passover.
"Moshe said to the people, Remember this day on which you went out from Egypt the house of serfs; for by strength of hand YHVH brought you out from here: no fermentation is to be eaten. Today you are going out, in the New-Moon of Ripe Grain [chodesh Aviv]" (Exodus 13:3-4).

In modern Hebrew ‘aviv’ means spring. In the Bible ‘aviv’ means: ‘the point of grain’s maturation in which it has formed ears;’ ‘barley ear;’ ‘fresh;’’ or ‘green.’ Aviv was also the name of the month in which the spring equinox fell. After the Babylonian Exile the name of this month was changed to Nisan.

Aviv refers to the first stage of grain’s ripening when its “ears” are well formed but still soft and green. The stalks stand fresh and verdant in the field. Later Aviv came to mean “Spring.”

Since calendars in the ancient Near East marked the beginning of each month with the appearance of the new moon, the fifteenth corresponds to the full moon. The Bible carefully sets the first Passover at the full moon near the vernal equinox. Why tell does Exodus 13:10 tell us to “keep this law at its appointed-time…?” Because otherwise Passover and all the other Jewish holidays would have fallen in their appointed months, but those months and their festivals would have wandered through the seasons, just as the Muslim festival of Ramadan does. The complexity of the Jewish calendar—which reckons months by the moon and years by the sun and adds an extra month to the calendar seven out of nineteen years—derives precisely from this specification: that Passover must come “at its appointed-time,” at the full moon of the vernal equinox when the barley has just begun to ripen.

So I guess if you know when the full moon was and the Equinox, you know when Jesus kept Passover.

Of course if you do not know the birth year, or the death year that might be a problem.

We Witches call this time of the Vernal Equinox Ostara, some call it Eoster...named after the German-Anglo Saxon Moon Goddess of Spring and Sexuality.

Interesting umm?

terra

John the Baptist did die before Jesus, best guess 12 years before. That would be the real person used to conjure the fictional John the Baptist that is coincidentally the same person mentioned many times in the Bible. Able is the first and the most accurate. Goliath is perhaps the last and least accurate.

One of the more interesting aspects of John's death, (beheaded?) is the fact that it was his biological grandmother behind it, the woman who collected his head on a silver platter.

There's some truth to just about every tale in the Bible. The death of Amenophis III's bastard son was so sensational it just had to be repeated, again and again and again. Only the names were changed to protect the illiterate.

Dear What? -

Thanks for the response. I would have appreciated it more had you had the spine to admit that your assigning a specific year to the death of Jesus was pure speculation on your part. Perhaps, informed speculation, at best.

And what - pray tell - would Josephus have to do with determining the year that Jesus died? Josephus wrote that John the Baptist was executed in 36CE. Doesn't that contradict the Biblical account of when John died? How does the year 36CE square with your determination of the year in which Jesus was executed? Does not the Bible have John the Baptist dying in the same year and in advance of Jesus' death?

Thanks.

What?
Bound with myrrh and aloes...?
How can one bind anything with Aloe...and even if aloe was used...why? It would be useless on a dead man. It is used for damaged skin. For healing.

Myrrh is a dried resin from the sap of a tree found in Ethiopia. While it is used in incense and in healing post partum ( that is why Mary got the gift from the three magi...) It's a powerful antiseptic and is a strong cleaning and healing agent, soothing the body and speeding the healing process. Myrrh is used in some liniments, healing salves that may be applied to abrasions and other skin ailments.

While both of these can be used for healing...Myrrh can be of some use to sweeten the area of a dead body...neither can be used as bindings and neither would do much for a dead man.

terra

Mr Mark,

Scripture, unfortunately does not give the full story and, in places, has been modified incorrectly thru translation. Just as any other in depth study on any subject, other historian texts, commentaries and the like are necessary to get the full picutre in this case. (Such as the historical accounts of Josephus, etc).

To answer your question re: the year, it was as follows:

April 25, 31 AD

(14 Nisan 3791)

ie the Passover that year would have been on our April 25, a Wednesday. Bear in mind that its observance was on the 'beginning' of Wednesday as days were viewed, which was Tues evening at sunset.

Dear What? -

Thanks for that explanation. It sounds compelling, but I have a question:

You say, "Jesus kept the Passover with his disciples-which was held on a Tuesday evening that year."

What year would that be? There is no clear indication of what year Jesus was born, nor of the year he died. The Bible gives two different "years" in which Jesus was born, and they are separated by at least 10 years. We also have no idea of how old Jesus was when he died. One Gospel puts his ministry at one year, another puts it at three years. The best one can do is to imagine that Jesus died somewhere between 27-39CE.

As your timeline establishing the 3 days & nights scenario hinges on Jesus being crucified on Wednesday, I'd like to know how you came to that conclusion.

Thanks.

Jesus kept the Passover with his disciples-which was held on a Tuesday evening that year. On Wednesday the 14th of Nisan/Abib, Jesus was crucified, and died late in the afternoon. They wrapped the body in a sheet (shroud) and bound it with the myrrh and aloes. It was already getting dark, so they had to hurry, because the annual Sabbath was beginning, the first day of Unleavened Bread on the 15th of Nisan/Abib, which was a Thursday. Watching all this a short distance away were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses. Joseph had a new garden tomb that had never been used nearby. They laid the body of Jesus in the tomb and rolled the stone over the entrance to the tomb. The next morning the Jewish leaders met with Pilate and received permission to seal and guard the tomb, so that his disciples couldn't steal the body and say Jesus had risen from the dead. They sealed the tomb and posted guards (on Thursday). The women including Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Joses, and Mary the mother of James and Salome, bought spices on Friday and prepared them. They bought spices on the day after a Sabbath (the annual Sabbath), and after preparing them on Friday, rested on the weekly Sabbath on Saturday. As the weekly Sabbath was ending late on Saturday afternoon, Mary Magdalene and one of the other Marys' came to the tomb to anoint the body. Since it was already almost dark, or was dark, all they saw was that the stone had been rolled away and no body was there.

Summary: Jesus died on Wednesday afternoon and was laid in the grave as the annual Sabbath was beginning. He was in the grave Wednesday night, Thursday day, Thursday night, Friday day, Friday night, and Saturday day. Therefore, He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights. He was resurrected late on the weekly Sabbath on Saturday. Therefore, He rose on the third day. Also, it was after 3 days and 3 nights. Those are the incontrovertible facts from the scriptural record.

Again, Rev 12:9 tells the story of why most of the world believes what it does regarding this.

What? wrote:

"Christ was in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights, then resurrected."

Are you sure about that time frame?

I thought Jesus was crucified on a Friday and resurrected the next Sunday. That would put him in a tomb only two nights (Friday & Saturday) and one full day (Saturday) and two partial days (entombed before sundown on Good Friday, resurrected sometime in the morning on Sunday). I don't know if it's true, but many sects believe that Jesus died around 3pm on Good Friday and was resurrected around 6am Sunday. That's about 39 hours. Three full days and three full nights is 72 hours.

In any case, there was no "third night" to be found anywhere.

Perhaps you have an original Greek text that can clear up this point.

WHAT?:

Satan is "the accuser" not to be confused with Lucifer the fallen angel. Admittedly, the two are run together in people's minds today, not so a measly 50 years ago. Is that part of some conspiracy? Don't know but it looks very suspicious. Don't you think?

Pictures of "an accuser" are at http://www.hoax-buster.org I think that even you will agree a lie detector administrator "accuses" or is he just examining?

As for hell, it like Satan/Lucifer has been warped, perverted to serve faith. Again I refer you to that horrible web site so you can see a picture of where the original hell was located. It was called abyss in the beginning. I think he calls that "map of the universe" taken from a Catholic Bible so we know it's OFFICIAL.

Isn't hell actually the Greek word for abyss? The Greeks seem to have a big hand in Jewish activities, somewhat larger than one would expect. Is something subtle going on there? The Romans robbing the Jew God is expected, all the Jews had exposed so they took it. But the Greeks?

Mr Mark stated:

>>Just a thought: worldwide, what percentage of believers in the Bible have studied it in the original Greek?

Enough to know that Rev 12:9 tells a bigger story than most know.

>>It they're getting the wrong ideas from the KJV or RSV, shouldn't we question the very basis of their faith?

Besides my previous comment, which also applies here, you can say the bulk of mankind has fashioned God, scripture, beliefs, holidays of our own, personal views. But most people are very sincere in what they believe.

>>BTW - thank you for the clarification on the difference in translation between hell and grave. Does it make any difference?

Yes, it does. Christ was in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights, then resurrected.

'Hell' (the way it is perceived by most) is a concotion of man's design...born primarily in the middle ages (along with around the same time artists painted 'portraits' of Christ with long hair...a custom during some societies in the middle ages...not a custom in Judea at the time of Christs life)

Christ did not go 'down' to a fiery place with hot rocks and people turning on spits, operated by little red devils with horns. This perception, too, was born out of the middle ages.

People do not go to heaven or hell as most tout. Scripture ephatically states that all sleep in the grave until the resurrection. It also states no man has ascended to heaven.

Again, Rev 12:9 tells the whole story in a nutshell.

Dear What? -

Just a thought: worldwide, what percentage of believers in the Bible have studied it in the original Greek? It they're getting the wrong ideas from the KJV or RSV, shouldn't we question the very basis of their faith?

BTW - thank you for the clarification on the difference in translation between hell and grave. Does it make any difference?

>>So Jesus said that He was going to PARADISE and went to HELL.

>>Is there another possible conclusion?

Yes, the truth. Unfortunately, Satan has deceived the world, as a whole, in many respects (Rev 12:9)..even thru the Nicene creed.

WHAT?: you're just another heretic. Lucky for you they stopped burning heretics at the stake, (or like a steak on the Bar B Q).

I found Jesus descending into hell after the crucifixion as Mr Mark said, OFFICIAL. It's as follows:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.

He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the Virgin Mary.

He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.<<<---******
On the third day he rose again.

He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,

the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,

the forgiveness of sins,

the resurrection of the body,

and the life everlasting.
Amen.

The above OFFICIAL creed is that of at least three great faiths, Church of England, Lutheran and the OFFICIAL church, Roman Catholic.

So Jesus said that He was going to PARADISE and went to HELL. Is there another possible conclusion? Jesus got lost?

And by the way...

Nowhere in scripture is 'Paradise' (Hebrew or Greek) ever associated with some so-called "intermediate state or realm" for the dead. This doctrine originated with men, and is not taught in Scripture.

Jesus and the other two crucified men were laid to rest in garden tombs. The Hebrew word pardes means 'a garden, a park'. The greek equivalent means the same.

The bible has been grossly undone by man. But, just as man can gain enough knowledge to split the atom, he can at the same time use his God-given mind to weed out discrepancies in printed scripture that feeble man has previously maligned.

Mr Mark and Bgone are like the blind leading the blind. Go figure.

Anyone who has studied the Bible, specifically studying, searching and validating scripture using the original Greek, in this case - Acts 2:21-30, one finds that the word hell was liberally used by the King James translators in places where it does not belong or fit- as its meaning denotes even to today. The correct translation for hell in vs 27 is 'the grave'...known by any scholar with a practical, discerning head on their shoulders.

BGONE asks:
"Mr Mark, where can I find something about "Jesus descending into hell?"

Acts 2:21-30.

These verses say that god has "raised up" Christ "to sit on his throne." Where was he raised up from? Verse 24 says, "Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it." The writer of Acts then goes on to say that this same raising up is extended to all believers, v27 "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

The clear inference is that the Holy One would not be left to see corruption in hell, so he - or at least, his soul - must have been in hell.

I believe that the Nicene Creed wording, "he descending into hell, on the third day he rose from again the dead" is based upon these verses from Acts.

And, once again, the atheist (me) does the Biblical legwork for the believer (BGONE). :)

WHAT?:

You wrote, "This world is in turmoil because mankind as a whole thinks he knows all...been that way since Eden."

How right can you be. Lucifer attempted to take over paradise. Moses made a deal with him, sold his soul to become the most important person that ever lived. All that confusion is the chaos of hell right here and now, the product of Moses followers.

Gospel according to Luke 23:40ff
But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

According to Mr Mark, Jesus descended into hell after dying on the cross. Luke 23:43 allows us to locate paradise. That would be where the ministry is leading us, to the place that Jesus went after His crucifixion? It also says the kingdom of Jesus and His Father, (Jesus is of one being with His Father) is hell.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul is correct, one way or the other. Either the story is a hoax, best possible case or all the "born agains" are headed for hell at light speed and dragging the USA along in the draft.

Mr Cal is doing all he can to help the ministry lead everyone there on the grounds that's paradise. Tell me again where Jerry Falwell is right now. Don't you think the Bible is really a hoax? What better reason to embrace the devastating truth? When it hurts too much to cry then laugh at it.

Mr Mark, where can I find something about "Jesus descending into hell?" I understand that was in the original, Constantine approved Nicean Creed. My Google has the same problem as me.

"Miracles" were actually intended for Mr Cal who seems to be poorly educated on the subject. Glad I could help you at the same time.

>>It is pretty amazing that grownups really believe this stuff, and appalling that they use it as a basis for public policy.

Its pretty amazing that grownups twist this stuff and appalling that they cannot see the good in things like the 10 commandments and would rather vomit their own pathetic, mindless diatribes that make no sense at all.

My 16 year old has more realistic insight and works with websites that make realistic sense...unlike some other 'grownups' (Ha!) on this blog today.

Many on this blog today reek of something like cynical teenagers poking fun at something they not only dont know about..but really dont want to know about.

This world is in turmoil because mankind as a whole thinks he knows all...been that way since Eden.

It will get worse before it gets better, folks.