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David:

no, I don't see your attitude as being like that of my ex. The strength of your cinvictions is evident in your posts, and i can respect that, even if I don't share those convictions. And while you have, at times, misunderstood what I believe, you have never "spoken" condescendingly to me.

You and I can agree to disagree, but enjoy greater understanding of each other's p-o-v, no conversions necessary. I see that as a good thing.

Namaste.

Thank you Lep for you story. Like I said before, I really enjoy hearing other worldviews. I would hope that you are not confusing me with the likes of your ex-husband in that I am telling you what you think. I'm merely engaging the idea with philisophical reasoning and logic. I know what you think and respect the sacred right of freewill in your choice. I will never say my way is better than yours because I believe in religious plurarisms as a positive thing in this world as to keep every ideology on an even playground. For me, it's an endless journey to know how these ideas are shaped, whether culturally, religiously or philisophically. I appreciate your testimony as a way of increasing my knowledge of the such. I still believe in absolute truths, but want to share one with you.

From being on this thread I have a chance to learn. To learn other's beliefs, ways of thinking and cultural backgrounds. To live in a pluralistic world, I find peace in knowing other's beliefs and understanding them to the best of my abilities. I think it is when some with their own beliefs choose not to recognize other's is when we have division. I still struggle with moral relativism because I see the effects of such a philosophy. It seems to be a negative effect. This to me is what causes division. There is evil in this world and taking from the evidence, if morals are relative, society will try to eliminate the thought of evil. Where will that lead us to? I know not on the right path, but to more evil. I will continue to understand the beliefs of others, but it is moral relativism that will forever destroy us. I do thank you for your time Lep and to others as well. To learn from each other will greatly benefit each other and will enhance respect for each other. I hope we can continue to do this, otherwise will not this world always be divided? So here is my absolute truth...If morals are relative in society, then we have not starting point for morals at all. I fear for that.

Have a wonderful day.

The Good Words/Passages were articulated via reason and common sense by the ancients. These Words of Wisdom were simply repeated with each major race and religion. Unfortunately the Words were eventually attributed to embellished men (e.g. Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Joe Smith) in most cases as a means of profiteering as noted by the contemporary billions of dollars owned and controlled by the Mormon, Christian, Jewish and Moslem religions. It is time to get our money back!!!!!

GERRY:

My bad - somehow in my mind I combined the original question regarding my name with your guess as to the meaning. I obviously haven't had near enough caffeine yet this morning.

Lepidopteryx,

the only thing I regret is that I forgot to sign my last post and left it inadvertently anonymous!!!

I, too, have had experience with people who tell me what I REALLY think!

Thank you!

Gerry

Lepidopteryx,

the only thing I regret is that I forgot to sign my last post and left it inadvertently anonymous!!!

I, too, have had experience with people who tell me what I REALLY think!

Thank you

Gerry

ANONYMOUS DAVID:

You're on the right track with "elegant wing."

Lepidopteryx is a hybrid of "Lepidoptera" which is the scientific order of butterflies, and "phoenix," which is the mythical bird that is reborn from its own ashes. I use a "y" instead of an "i" just cuz I like it that way.

I came to the realization that I was Pagan while I was marreid to my ex-husband. He had some of the same issues with relative truths that you do, only he expected me to not simply respect his opinion (which I did) but to tailor my own spirituality to his, or at least give that appearance (and that I could not do). One of the many factors that led to our divorce was the fact that he kept insisting that my departure from Christianity was only a temporary thing, that I would eventually return to the "true way," and that I shouldn't call myself Pagan because I really wasn't, and referred to attending the Unitarian services which I find so meaningful as "playing church." I hate when someone else tries to tel me what I really believe. He expected me to pretend to be Christian around his family, which I also refused to do. I don't pretend to be Christian around my own Southern Baptist parents. They've learned to live with it, and no longer ask questions about the altar in my living room.

Despite efforts to remain civil, the divorce got ugly, especially when he started hurling accusations that I had had affairs with at elast one man and one woman who attended my church.

Once it was over, I felt depressed and dirty. One of the few things that kept me sane (other than the routine of caring for my daughter and our pets) was taking off my clothes and lying in the sun in my backyard. I'm a fire sign - I require light and heat, and lots of both. One afternoon, while I was sunbathing, a bright yellow butterfly lit on my abdomen and stayed there for several minutes. I wondered what it was trying to tell me. After coming in from sunbathing, it finally dawned on me that I could now live my life the way I really wanted and needed to, and the only thing stopping me from doing it was me.
Butterflies start out as caterpillars - slow, earthbound, and not exactly what most people consider pretty. After a period of dormancy, they emerge as these beautiful, delicate creatures that look like flying flower petals but are capable of flying across the ocean. The butterfly was the perfect metaphor for what I had been going through, and I realized that the one that had lit on my abdomen was my totem notifying me of our relationship.
The phoenix is also a metaphor for transformation, renewal, new life brought out of destruction, so I have adopted it as a second totem.
Thus Lepidopteryx became my spirit name.

Sorry, it was me, Gerry.

Lepidopteryx (is it "Elegant-wing"?)

I think our general human mindset has been corrupted by the total commercialization of life: Everything must have a price to be paid, starting with the preposterous original sin "bargain" and continuing with the stupid commercial idea of heaven and hell.

We are not even aware that we supplant the natural course of events, including random episodes ("flat tire") with an "all-knowing, all-enabling" (omnipotent) god. God thus has become a "joker" entity for any imaginable natural event. Whatever exists and happens - it is thus "god's will". The strange thing is, that even the most ardent "god" partisans are completely unable to define him - beyond the fact, that he is in this sense "omnipotent", that is, a joker for everything. But if you have a "joker" in a play for everything, the play completely loses its meaning. You cannot play a game with only jokers as playing cards. If god means everything (joker), he means nothing.

That is not my version of human dignity, value of life and responsibility. I, like you, want to retain my ability to love and admire nature, music, (I am a musician), art, literature, friends, without having to resort to an "omnipotent" puller of marionette strings. The beauty of nature includes its risks, its surprises: There would not be any beauty without the risks. The beauty depends on risks, on the uncertainty, unpredictability of life.

The question "why god created storms and earthquakes" is only valid within the narrow and constrained "orthodox" religious systems, not outside of it, not in reality. Natural disasters like storms, tsunamis, earthquakes are natural consequences of the physical existence of the world and its laws, of the existence of ourselves. Without these natural laws that can create disasters we would not exist.

Well, I think I might have a few more things to say. You seem to be wanting to blame nature and the planet Earth for her own bodily processes. When an individual becomes physically incarnate, it comes with many blessings--joys, loves, learning, and most of all just the experience that life brings. But it also has another side as well. Once you have become a living being, it is a certain truth you will also die. Along the way there will also be suffering, pain, and sorrow. This is part of the cycles of nature, part of the functioning of the body of the Goddess Gaea and the Planet Earth. If you find accepting this to be too harsh or too painful, by all means do not be a Pagan--just as when I found the violence depicted in the Bible unacceptable it was one of the things leading me to cease being Christian. Now, as for why I am uncomfortable with the violence of the Bible but accepting of the violence in nature, I think that has to do with purpose, and the will of those involved. When hurricanes and earthquakes occur, as I have said, this is part of the funtioning of the organs in the body of the Goddess. They have been occuring long before Humans evolved, so all her creatures have had to learn to deal with this. (by the way, in my version of the faith, Humans are no more special to Gaea that any of her other children.) When Yahweh ordered the slaughter of whole populations, in at least one case after they had already been defeated and captured, that is a direct act of malevolence, not an accident of bodily function.

Now, seeing as how we have decided to be living beings on the planet, that has these functions, then we have already accepted the risks associated with that. We will all die a physical death, and personally, I don't see how going in a flood or earthquake is worse than being eaten by a cancer or being shot by a mugger. And, of course, one must also consider the human choices that are involved. If you live near a mountain in an earthquake or volcano zone, you have accepted certain risks. If you live on the Gulf of Mexico during huricane seasom, you have accepted others. Where I live, I am fully aware a tornado could swoop down and destroy me and/or all I own with little or no warning at certain times of the year. I understand the most geologically stable place in the world is central Australia, but for some reason you don't see hordes of people swarming to live there. They realize that physical safety is not the only issue--living is the issue, and experiencing all the wonder and joy life has to offer. This would be why so very many people live in the wonderful climate and enlightened society that is California, despite the common knowledge that quite likely within our lifetimes horrible dammage will occur to the major cities in California from earthquakes. When this happens, it would be foolish to blame it as a direct attack by Gaea. She has already let us know it is coming, and yet there are those who have chosen to live there. And I cannot say they are wrong--there are more things to life than avoiding death, pain and loss. And of all the things my Gods offer, they do not promise that I can avoid these things. (I don't think there are any Gods that promise that in this world).

My dearest Lep,

Thank you for the CTS that you have obtained because of me. It is not in vain at all. I appreciate your explanations and respect you to the fullest.

I just have one final question. No more after that, I think I've learned enough for one week. Time to go on a brain vacation from philisophical and religious thinking.

How did you come up with lepidopteryx. Does that have a meaning of some sort? Just curious, that's all.

Oh by the way, my real name is David. Nice to meet you. Shhhh....don't tell anyone. :)

ANON 1:

**Everything is divine therefore everything is linked as a WHOLE. So I guess that does mean that I can blame your tomato plant for Katrina and Peru!**

Why do you require someone or something to blame? If you get a flat tire on the way to a job interview, do you blame God? Satan?

**Not to be offensive, but maybe simply because it does not conform to anything logical or absolute. Maybe this is why I cannot make this my reality.**
It's not a path that everyone can walk. That's ok.

**I don't know how to understand something that cannot understand itself.**
I understand my beliefs quite well, thank you very much. They make perfect sense to me.

**It's kind of like a religion where you can have your cake and eat it too. Or a buffet line of religious thought where you just pick what you like and ignore the rest. "I think I'll pass on the sin, an extra side of divine nature, hold the eternal being, and for dessert some everything is whole topped with a hint of moral whatevers. Yummy!"**

Why is the concept of sin necessary in order for you to consider a spiritual path valid? The Divine reveals Itself to different people in different ways. I don't require the concept of sin in order to be a moral person. And you will find that the Rule of Three and the concept of karma - you get back what you put out. If you put negative energy into the Universe by harming others, then that negative energy will be reflected back to you. If you put positive energy into the Universe by treating others well, then that positivity is reflected back to you. So, yeah, in that sense, you DO get to choose what you want. But there is no eternal condemnation or punishment for "sin" because there is no "sin," just poor choices of behavior. In computer jargon, it's along the lines of GI-GO. the Universe tends toward balance - if you upset that balance, it's on you to right it.

**I see why paganism is so appealing. It's what you make it. I hope not to be offensive, but this is what I've learned so far.**
Darling, all faith is what you make it. But Paganinsm isn't a case of making it up as we go along. If that's what you think after all this, I've given myself a case of CTS in vain.

Arminius:

Pagan is an umbrella term that encompasses many different belief systems with significant commoonalities - like the term Christianity.

Wicca is a specific Pagan path, just as Catholicism is a specific Christian path.

If you are Catholic, you would feel qualified to make general comments about Christianity as a whole, but you would likely not feel qualified to comment on specific practices of say, Southern Baptists.

Same with me and Wicca. because Wicca is not my specific path, I don't feel qualified to try to explain it, especially to someone for whom Paganism is terra incognita.

Lep,

"I'm Pagan, but not Wiccan", you said.

Could you educate a seeker here? I grovel in my ignorance . . .

Lep,

I think you lost me at:

"ANON1:"

Yeah I guess I don't get it. Let me try to figure something out here.

"For me, the Divine is that overarching Whole of which we are all a part."

and then you said,

"If I'm going to accuse the gods of sending kKatrina to wipe out my husband's school, then I might as well accuse my tomato plant of sending the earthquake in Peru."

and one more thing to link this all together..

"I see it as inextricably imbedded in the physical world, so everything is divine"

Ok. Everything is divine. I got that. Everything is divine therefore everything is linked as a WHOLE. So I guess that does mean that I can blame your tomato plant for Katrina and Peru! C'MON KETCHUP!

Ahhh!!!

Of course I will never understand this system of thought. Not to be offensive, but maybe simply because it does not conform to anything logical or absolute. Maybe this is why I cannot make this my reality. I don't know how to understand something that cannot understand itself. It seems self-contradictory?? And the contradictions are meaningless to those that follow this system of thought. It's kind of like a religion where you can have your cake and eat it too. Or a buffet line of religious thought where you just pick what you like and ignore the rest. "I think I'll pass on the sin, an extra side of divine nature, hold the eternal being, and for dessert some everything is whole topped with a hint of moral whatevers. Yummy!"

I see why paganism is so appealing. It's what you make it. I hope not to be offensive, but this is what I've learned so far. I do appreciate this conversation thought and have greatly enjoyed it. I especially thank you for sharing your faith and thoughts with me. Have a great evening.

ANON1:

**So is nature divine?**
Abso-freaking-lutely.

**If you say nature is divine, then it has a personality, right?**
I think you anthropomorphize your deity more tha I do mine. While i refer to gods and goddesses, I see them as the generative and surival aspects of nature, not as beings that in any way physically resemble me, and certainly not as beings prone to temper tantrums.

**It means you and nature are one and that nature is in a sense personal divine being or beings. So if hurricanes and earthquakes are part of this divine nature, then why can't the divine nature (your god(s)) be held accountable for random acts of violence?**
Because my gods aren't the ones who send massive floods in a fit of pique. For me, the Divine is that overarching Whole of which we are all a part. If I'm going to accuse the gods of sending kKatrina to wipe out my husband's school, then I might as well accuse my tomato plant of sending the earthquake in Peru.

**Otherwise nature is just nature with no divine attributes, right??**
You see the Divine as something separate from the physical world. I see it as inextricably imbedded in the physical world, so everything is divine. I think you see the function of the Divine as being to reward "good" and punish "evil." That's not what I see as the function of the Divine. I see the function of the Divine as being to facilitate awareness of the Interconnectedness of Everything (apologies to Douglas Adams and Dirk Gently).

**Or maybe I just lost myself in understanding one bit of what wiccans believe? I definately see myself with the latter eventually. :)**
Again, I'm Pagan, but not Wiccan, so I can't speak for Wiccans as to specifics of their paths. I can only tell you what my reality, my truth is.

Where Doth Not Nature?
You said:
"The gods all lie. Humanity speaks. The gods will kill a man or woman for naught, but man, largely needs a god to kill."

God does not kill. Man does.

Cannot you look for the good and beautiful that is there too?

Where not Nature 'Red in tooth and claw' I'd be one to find solace in a holy, changing text of an ever-changing, transcendent being.

Alas...the world is all around me.

It drips blood from every talon, it stinks with killing which makes 'life' possible. What sort of god would create such an evil thing?

The wars of the gods, and the gods of the wars all lay down together in this red, and unholy river. They, baptized, self-extinguish a right to speak delusion as truth.

The words of men are all we have. Though often caught in emboldened lie, they still say more than all the gods put together.

The gods all lie. Humanity speaks. The gods will kill a man or woman for naught, but man, largely needs a god to kill.

I love this Lep,

"Are we arguing? I thought we were comparing contradictory truths"

I wish you could see my smile. If you were next to me right now I would hug you. I guess the point is lost somewhere and I might as well give it up, huh? But I had to say, that was funny. Thanks.

One more thing though.

"Go back and re-read my post. New Orleans was NOT targeted, nor was Peru, and neither hurricanes nor earthquakes are divine punishments. Weather happens. Weather patterns have nothing to do with good and evil. Hurricanes are the result of collisions between warm and cool air masses. If you live near the Gulf of Mexico, expect hurricanes. Earthquakes are the result of shifting ground faults. If you live near a seismically unstable area, expect earthquakes"

So is nature divine? If you say nature is divine, then it has a personality, right? It means you and nature are one and that nature is in a sense personal divine being or beings. So if hurricanes and earthquakes are part of this divine nature, then why can't the divine nature (your god(s)) be held accountable for random acts of violence? Otherwise nature is just nature with no divine attributes, right?? Or maybe I just lost myself in understanding one bit of what wiccans believe? I definately see myself with the latter eventually. :)

God created this wonderful universe some 14 billion years past. He set it in motion, knowing that we would evolve, and waiting to see what would happen.

Eventually, a hurricane came upon New Orleans. It was not a punishment. It was a test.

We failed.

Hi Anon:

I have to agree with my friend Lepi on this one too. We don't look at weather as some sort of punishment for anything. Especially in disaster zones, it's about using your common sense. If you live in a low lying area, that has been known to get hurricanes or earthquakes or volcanoes, don't be surprised if one day you lose your house as a result of it. The areas were not targeted because 'sinful' people lived there. People often decide where they want to put a house without taking into consideration the words of those who have lived there before. It's about understanding Nature's patterns in any given area and realizing that in some places there is a bigger risk than others.

A lot of people are so hung up on 'subduing' nature that they're always surprised when Nature shows up in certain areas and destroys everything in the way.

The passage in scripture that is referred to as The Lord's Prayer and also the Our Father: Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy Name, Thy Kingdom come, thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven, give us this day our daily Bread, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from the evil one. OUR FATHER, as in the Father of the entire human race considering that not only did He create everyone but also everything. WHO ART IN HEAVEN, not only is He in Heaven but He is also putting the finishing touches on the Heavenly Jerusalem not to be confused with the New Jerusalem which is going to go down the tubes just like the Old Jerusalem only more so. HALLOWED BE THY NAME, actually God is Pure Love but from so many of the posts that call themselves christians, you would never know. THY KINGDOM COME, God's Kingdom which will be a Kingdom of Pure Love and it is for all of His children which is ALL OF HUMANITY. THY WILL BE DONE, Like it says in many places in the bible, it is God's Will that ALL BE SAVED, also if all that someone calling themself a christian, cares about is going to the "good place" , how christian is that, considering that on the cross Jesus said, "Father forgive them", there is not an asterick after them, them means ALL OF HUMANITY, we have all done wrong at least I have. ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN, as it says even the forces of evil, satan and his cohorts, are working toward the Will of God even if inadvertantly, besides being a liar and a thief, the deceiver is also a loser. GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD, this refers not only to that which sustains us physically but also the Eucharist which is the BREAD OF LIFE. FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US, this is a divine equation, pure and simple, Jesus told us as much. AND LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION, satan is the tempter and like it says when we fall which we all seem to do at times at least I have we can ask for forgiveness, we can go directly to God for forgiveness, the curtain in front of the Holy of Holies has been torn in two, yes the one that so many people are trying to sew back together. BUT DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE, yes satan and his cohorts are real and in God's Plan, All of Humanity will be delivered from all evil that is why we are to be willing and active participants in God's Plan whatever we may have been called or chosen to do. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

ANON1:
**Why was N.O. targeted or Peru targeted by your god? Just for fun? Or was there a reason? Were these people evil in Peru and deserved it?**

Go back and re-read my post. New Orleans was NOT targeted, nor was Peru, and neither hurricanes nor earthquakes are divine punishments. Weather happens. Weather patterns have nothing to do with good and evil. Hurricanes are the result of collisions between warm and cool air masses. If you live near the Gulf of Mexico, expect hurricanes. Earthquakes are the result of shifting ground faults. If you live near a seismically unstable area, expect earthquakes.

**I see the way a human being sees. I see in a sense of human reality. I am not a bee or could never be a bee. I am no other species but human. That is the absolute truth and the absolute reality.**

Exactly my point. Your reality and that of the bee are different. To you, the flowers are "really" red and yellow. To the bee, they are "really" blue and white.

**So I guess our beliefs and pre-suppositions oppose one another. But this is why there is not relative truth. You have a truth that is contradictory to mine. Therefore truth is not relative or it would not be contradictory.**

No, it shows that cotradictory truths can be equally valid.

** If truth is relative, why are you arguing my points?**

Are we arguing? I thought we were comparing contradictory truths.

Wiccan,

You just came perilously close to feeling the fury of my Celtic ancestors!!! Could you have withstood our Brew Jihad? Only your reference to Bushmills saved you.

Lager is 'yellow beer', and is despised by all true beer drinkers. Good ale, stout, and, yes, porter rule! Check out this website:
http://www.arrogantbastard.com/
And keep in mind - You Are NOT Worthy!!!!! This is about the Ultimate Ale, the Drink of all of us Celtic Warriors!!!!

Regarding Bushmills - oh, Lord, I do adore the juice of the barley, but my old stomach forbids me much of it. I love Irish whiskey, but a superior Scotch single malt . . . now there is heaven.

Oh, yeah - a good mead is mighty fine stuff too.

Also - I grew up in the heartland of Moonshine, in the South. (= the Southeast of the US of A). Some of it is quite good, but really fiery stuff.

Thanks for your patience!

Lep,

There is a difference in my God and yours. Yes, my God struck the firstborns of Egypt. Your god struck New Orleans, Peru, Pakistan, etc. If we take the pre-supposition that my God is true then you can believe what you want as in terms of how He works. Since your god(s) are in or are nature, then you god(s) are killers for no apparent reason. God had a reason for killing the firstborns. Yes it was targeted and for a specific reason. Why was N.O. targeted or Peru targeted by your god? Just for fun? Or was there a reason? Were these people evil in Peru and deserved it? Or is there no explanation as to why your gods did these things. Or is it that nature is not devine at all which is why you cannot explain the reasoning for these events?

"The "reality" of color depends on several factors: pigment, light wavelength, observer. Light of different wavelengths reacts with different materials to produce a different chemical raction, which is then perceived by an observer as a specific color, depending on the photochemical composition of his/her/its eye. Again, I ask you, are the flowers "really" red and yellow, (the way human beings see them), or are they "really" blue and white, (the way the bee sees them), or are they "really" shades of grey (the way a species with no color receptors would see them). Or are they "really" chartreuse and puce, even though there may be no species that sees them that way? And does it ultimately matter? "

I see the way a human being sees. I see in a sense of human reality. I am not a bee or could never be a bee. I am no other species but human. That is the absolute truth and the absolute reality. Therefore I live in human reality that flowers are whatever color humans see them as which in reality if they are red and yellow then they are red and yellow. I believe we come to two different outcomes because of two different pre-suppostitions. I do not believe we are "one" so to say as nature. I believe we are created and different from any other form of nature. I know you feel differently. But with your pre-supposition, you can conclude that a bee and human see differently because you believe they are "one". I believe that we are far different from bees and could not compare realities with a bee and a human. I only know human reality. So I guess our beliefs and pre-suppositions oppose one another. But this is why there is not relative truth. You have a truth that is contradictory to mine. Therefore truth is not relative or it would not be contradictory.

I do thank you for this discussion. I have to point out one thing though in general. If truth is relative, why are you arguing my points?

Do you see the impossibility to hold to that statement?

Lep-

Or when my Mom and I had some of her friend's homemade peach wine...only time in my life I saw Mom tipsy. She was so cute!

WICCAN:

**Give me Bushmills any time. You don't just see the Gods, you can speak with them too. Just don't ask to remember the conversation :)**

Sounds like my most recent experience with a friend's home-brewed mead...

Lep and Arminius-

"And you said:
"For the Pagan, the oneness is very real - it's freaking palpable.

So is my Christian God. We see the same, through a glass darkly."

That's because you've got that glass filled with ale, or porter. Fill it with a decent lager and you'd both see just fine! ;-)

Full disclosure- I work for a beer wholesaler, and have drank beer maybe 7 times in the past 26 years. Yuck! Give me Bushmills any time. You don't just see the Gods, you can speak with them too. Just don't ask to remember the conversation :)

Lep,
You said:
"ARMINIUS:
**Thank God I stocked lots of beer!**
Save me Guinness or three."

Several cases here for you! Nectar of the Gods indeed. I have Irish ancestry - my father was born there.

And you said:
"For the Pagan, the oneness is very real - it's freaking palpable.

So is my Christian God. We see the same, through a glass darkly.

ANON1:
**But my question is this. My God is assumed to be a 'monster' by the destruction of peoples as recorded in the OT. Your god or gods are in nature. What reason can you give me for the destruction of 400 lives in Peru? What reason can you give me for Hurricane Katrina? Why did your god allow this? Is it safe for me to say that your god is a monster and more monsterous than mine because at least mine has reasons? Fair question, right?**

The difference is that according to your scriptures, when your god, for example, killed all the Egyptian firstborn, it was a direct attack by him on a specific group of people. It was AIMED. Same with all the cities the Children of Israel sacked with their god's help as they trooped through the desert.
Mama Nature didn't deliberately aim Katrina at New Orleans. My husband and I lost 2/3 of our houshold income as a result of that storm, but I don't see it as a personal attack. Weather happens. My deities aren't control freaks. They don't send storms or droughts or earthquakes as punishment for sins. You could say that the increase in unusually intense weather phenomena is influenced by human behavior in terms of global warming, but again, it's not a supernatural punishment, it follows natural law.

** Some see green as green, some see it as a blueish color, but what is the reality?**

The "reality" of color depends on several factors: pigment, light wavelength, observer. Light of different wavelengths reacts with different materials to produce a different chemical raction, which is then perceived by an observer as a specific color, depending on the photochemical composition of his/her/its eye. Again, I ask you, are the flowers "really" red and yellow, (the way human beings see them), or are they "really" blue and white, (the way the bee sees them), or are they "really" shades of grey (the way a species with no color receptors would see them). Or are they "really" chartreuse and puce, even though there may be no species that sees them that way? And does it ultimately matter?

**If oneness in nature is somewhat of a dogmatic statement in wicca, then those who do not see truth are not one in nature and therefore nature is seperate from man. Oneness in nature does not exist in reality. I have heard from a wiccan point of view that we are ALL one with nature, somehow intertwined. That is making an absolute statement that we are all in the same reality. But if truth is relative according to wicca their very own statements are self-contradictory. You cannot believe in relativistic truth and make a statement that we are all one in nature, because my truth might differ from that and therefore we are not.**

For the Pagan, the oneness is very real - it's freaking palpable. There are those who go to great lengths to separat themsleves from the natural world, and for them the connection is weaker. But I doubt that anyone can truly claim to believe that their actions have no effect on the natural world, or vice versa. That's the universality of the connection. Wretch Limbaugh may believe that human beings don't have the power to destroy the earth, but it doesn't change the fact that every time he flushes his toilet, it affects the planetary water supply, every time he cranks his car, it affects polution levels, etc. - just as it does every time anyone else does it. That's the universal connection.

ARMINIUS:
**Thank God I stocked lots of beer!**

Save me Guinness or three.

Friends,

don't jump to conclusions: When I (with Lep and Arminius say, that there are many truths, depending on the "system" of observer and observed, and depending on the context, that does not mean that there is no such thing as truth or that any arbitrary nonsense can usurp the term "truth"! Nonsense, logic stupidity, selling fairy tales as history, asking people to follow institutionalized superstition don't fall into this "relativity" category, and the creationist stories may be (rather desperate, emotionally generated) opinions, but not truths, because they intentionally, for the clerical agenda, avoid, even detest honest thinking.

And Jay, I am with you on most points, but I don't think there is an objective answer to every question.

May I just repeat the cues:
Reality is process. Things change. No static truth.
Truth lies only in the system of observer and observed (Heisenberg), a position rather difficult to accept.
It even depends on honesty and modesty (Socrates: I know that I don't know).
And I may add: It not only depends on context, but also on argumentation level, physically (as I stated: practical human vs. subatomic or cosmic level) and philosophically.

Hey, Lep!

You said,
"If observing an object changes that object, then reality can be neither static nor objective.
And that's fine with me - it keeps things interesting."

My reply:
Exactly. True is objectively True within the context, and that context itself is subjective.

I sense a philosophy here, struggling to get out of our blatherings. Back to the bomb shelter! Thank God I stocked lots of beer!

I have a question for my pagan friends. I've heard consistently that the Christian God was a so-called "monster" in the OT due to certain actions as recorded in the OT. Of course my God has reasons for these which you may find acceptable and which you may not find acceptable. But if truth is relative (and more importantly if morals are relative) then it is acceptable. But my question is this. My God is assumed to be a 'monster' by the destruction of peoples as recorded in the OT. Your god or gods are in nature. What reason can you give me for the destruction of 400 lives in Peru? What reason can you give me for Hurricane Katrina? Why did your god allow this? Is it safe for me to say that your god is a monster and more monsterous than mine because at least mine has reasons? Fair question, right?

BTW, I am sympathetic to the pagans on their focus on nature as well. Not as a worshipping source, but as an acknowledgment of the importance of our habitat.

Concerning truth again. Arguments against absolute truth negate reality. Truth conforms to reality. Some see green as green, some see it as a blueish color, but what is the reality? There is where you find truth. If one sees green as a blueish color, then are they living in reality as a sense of universalistic reality or their own personal reality. If oneness in nature is somewhat of a dogmatic statement in wicca, then those who do not see truth are not one in nature and therefore nature is seperate from man. Oneness in nature does not exist in reality. I have heard from a wiccan point of view that we are ALL one with nature, somehow intertwined. That is making an absolute statement that we are all in the same reality. But if truth is relative according to wicca their very own statements are self-contradictory. You cannot believe in relativistic truth and make a statement that we are all one in nature, because my truth might differ from that and therefore we are not. Do you see the contradiction?

JAY:
**There is a true answer to any question we may ask because there is a reality that is objective. Whether humans can perceive that truth or not is irrelevant. At best, a human observer can perceive and understand subjective approximations of reality in some cases, and in other cases may be unable to perceive even a hint of it. That does not negate the reality that exists independent of observation.**

If Heisenberg was correct, then the very act of seeking truth changes the nature of truth, making it infinitely mutable.
If observing an object changes that object, then reality can be neither static nor objective.
And that's fine with me - it keeps tings interesting.

Oh, damnit! That last post to Gerry was from me, Arminius. My bad . . .

Gerry,

Here is the expansion on Pilate's statement from 'Jesus Christ Superstar':
What is truth?
Is truth unchanging law?
We both have truths
Are mine the same as yours?

Regarding truth - in accordance with Einstein, Heisenberg, et al, as you wrote - truth, that slippery beastie, depends on the context. See my post above about axioms. The example I gave is the triangle; always has the sum of its angles = 180 degrees in plane geometry. True? of course. Move to spherical geometry. Sum of angles can be between 180+ and 360- degrees. True? you bet.

For the record, I am Christian, but do not accept the traditional axioms of many - I reject the 6-day gig, for an example. I see thru a glass darkly, and continue the search.

I also agree with your opinion of the pagans.

It's late for me to jump into this, but it seems to me that the definition of "truth" has taken a beating in this discussion. There is a true answer to any question we may ask because there is a reality that is objective. Whether humans can perceive that truth or not is irrelevant. At best, a human observer can perceive and understand subjective approximations of reality in some cases, and in other cases may be unable to perceive even a hint of it. That does not negate the reality that exists independent of observation.

Biblical creationism and the modern scientific theory of evolution cannot both be true; one is wrong or both are wrong, even as approximations of reality, regardless of how many people believe in one over the other. So-called truths such as "love is good" are subjective assessments based on strictly human perceptions ... not to say they are wrong, but they are lacking in objectivity.

I enjoyed your philosophical conversation about truth, and I would like to add a few remarks.

We should not regard "truth" in life, science, philosophy, evolution, especially not in religion as something mathematically comparable to 2+2=4. We would run into logical and even semantical morass (Pontius Pilatus' rhethorical and almost sarcastic question "what is truth" to me is one of the most important statements in the bible). We would easily stumble over classical logical traps like "all Cretians lie; I am a Cretian, lol!

"Truth" is for us what our brain makes out of the different physical inputs it receives and processes, with the equipment of our genetical being. Thus, we observe a certain frequency as a color or, in music, as a pitch. (In music, to stay with this example, you can transpose any melody into any other key, with not a single tone left of the original, and still the melody is as "true" as ever!)

Our brains are disposed that way. We do not observe "truths", not even when recognizing a familiar face, but we observe and recognize proportions, movements, not facts. Facts are what we deduce from these uncertain sensations.

Green is the sensation created by our brain by a certain frequency pattern. We don't know for sure if you perceive this (measurable, "true") frequency exactly as "green" as I do, but let us assume that the probability is extremely high. So, green is not objectively "true", but it is our personal perception of a light vibration, it only can be regarded as "true" in a sense that we can communicate about shades of green with a considerable hope that the other person has the same sensation - color blind folks have other sensations, and depending on a particular lighting, green can also be blue. An object, therefore, cannot be "truly" green: It depends.

Furthermore, truth does not lie in observed objects, but it is only found in the system of observer plus object. Heisenberg found ("Unschärferelation", uncertainty relation principle), that an observed object changes, on the atomic level, with the measuring observer. That means, the idea of "truth" has only a certain practical value ("green"), just like the Newtonian world is "true", as long as you don't introduce the Einstein relativity of a four-dimensional space-time, or even, as the latest conjectures about "truth" go, about an 11-dimensional "multiverse".

Thus, if you can agree on the assumption that truth is only found in the system "observer plus observed object", there must be innumerable truths, since each system of truth changes depending on the observer.

The "eternal, immobile truth" of all religion is nonsense. Life (even "eternal" life, an oxymoron) can only be regarded as process, as development (you can call it evolution).

All this does not preclude the immense, infinite awe I experience wondering at nature, my own existence, my role in the social context, my love, my hope, my fear. I only vigorously reject the demand that I "obey" a god that I (mankind) have created myself (talking about "original sin", what a horror!)

Btw, of all the parties involved in this discussion I am most sympathetic with the pagans for their awe towards nature, their common sense and their complete lack of indoctrination!

ANON1:

**Wow Lep, from the looks of your schedule, how do you find time to sleep?**

In the words of Warren Zevon, "I'll sleep when I'm dead." I'm fortunate in that three or four good hours a night will usually suffice, and if need be, I can set the alarm on my Palm and take a power nap at my desk on my lunch break.

**About our argument over truth, we can end that if you want. I understand the frustration. I know that sometimes it's hard to find the words to express your true thoughts. I do that too...all the time. For me it's called a "brain fart".**

I don't see that discussion going anywhere. You find it impossible to conceive of multiple, equally valid truths, and I find it impossible to imagine a world without them.
And we call those moments brain farts at my house too. ;D

**Anyway, good luck to you on all that your doing. If you wouldn't mind, I would like to ask your permission to be able to pray for you. I know we have different faiths, so I would hope that I can pray to my God for you? Thanks.**

I consider prayer offered on my behalf, regardless of the faith of the person doing the praying or what deity they are praying to, to be positive energy directed toward me, and I'll take all the positive energy I can get. I will ask, however, that you not pray for my conversion, although from what you've posted so far, I don't really imagine you as the type who would use prayer as an act of aggression (which is what I would consider a prayer for another person to convert from one faith to another).

Hi Anon 1:

I've had a hard time in other conversations getting through to other people that it's ok if they believe something different, but there are as many possibilities as there are people. What one seemed to have the hardest time with is that Christian idea of heaven holds absolutely no interest to me if as Jews or Pagans everyone I hold dear is elsewhere. Fire to me represents a cleansing, purifying element that is a part of each ritual I do. If I'm already dead, I don't think I'll experience it, if at all, the same way I might while still alive. If that version of god exists, he's got a lot to account for.

I think it's incredibly limiting to any deity to have one book and say 'that's all that's been said about him'. Why limit the Divine that way?

You say that your spreading of the 'good news' is done out of love. As do others. But to a Pagan, often times that 'love' comes along with absolutely horrendous acts done in the name of that love. The Burning times was long ago, but things do still happen today in the name of Jesus or your god that contradict completely what he taught, even in America. Most likely you won't hear about it in the mainstream media because most people don't think we even exist, or don't have a religion of our own, or worship something that has nothing to do with us.

Please understand, I have no problem with Christians or anyone else. I was raised Jewish and have felt like I dodged a theological bullet. Never had to be afraid for my mortal soul. Don't know if Jesus existed (no archaeological evidence that i can find indicates anything other than the period of time he's said to have lived) and I certainly don't think he would have been the first person to come up with the idea to love unconditionally and not judge.

I think so many people get caught up in language that they miss the point of what Jesus is supposed to have said. I have a problem with hypocrisy in any religion. Claiming 'god' called them to do the most cruel things to other life on this planet and calling it love. And then wondering why it tends to backfire.

I see the Divine in absolutely everything, all the time around me. Therefore there cannot be a place in any life that is separated from love for me. I can interact with the universe at almost any time (except maybe when operating heavy machinery! :) ) so I feel it everyday, in everything I do, and it gives me a sense of joy and peace that is active and ultimately renewable as well as an absolute marvel at how it all works. The more I find out from science the more amazed I am.

Blessed be on your journey. May you find what you seek. :)

Wow Lep, from the looks of your schedule, how do you find time to sleep? I'm very impressed I must say. I always appreciate an artistic talent. Acting and singing....nice!

About our argument over truth, we can end that if you want. I understand the frustration. I know that sometimes it's hard to find the words to express your true thoughts. I do that too...all the time. For me it's called a "brain fart". Anyway, good luck to you on all that your doing. If you wouldn't mind, I would like to ask your permission to be able to pray for you. I know we have different faiths, so I would hope that I can pray to my God for you? Thanks.

ANON1:

I'm not angry with you - just frustrated that I can't seem to get across what I mean by relative truth.

Add to that the fact that I'm a bit tired - I just accepted a role in a play that a friend of mine wrote (5 characters, 3 actors), and right after Labor Day, I'm auditioning for a community theater musical production. So I'm trying to get off book for the role I've already accepted in case I get cast in the